And there were so many things you were

talking about in the last episode where

I'm like I could ask him like 40 things

there. All right, we just got to pick

one and roll with it. So, there's some

stuff I want to dig into deeper that we

just kind of touched the surface of and

then other things I want to get to

entirely

>> new topics. But yeah, I I also know like

you know Jordan Peterson, you've been on

his show before, have a little bit of a

relationship with him. He obviously is

like they publicly announced he's he's

not doing too well right now. Have you

heard any

>> any updates on that on his health?

>> I haven't. So what I know is from what's

known publicly about his health,

unfortunately. You know, he he went

through some some health battles as as

is known. Um, but yeah, I I uh send him

my greetings. Um, you know, well wishes

through his wife Tammy and and uh but

yeah, I'm not sure exactly what's what's

happening there, you know. Hope

>> Yeah. Never like to see that. I hope

>> Yeah. Hope he recovers soon. Yeah,

definitely. For sure.

>> So, this course you did on love. Yeah,

>> we talked about it at the very end last

time for the last 13 14 minutes of that

podcast, which I'm not sure when this

one's coming out yet.

>> We'll figure that out. But,

>> you know, we got into some of the

>> pop culture with, you know, breaking

down the Titanic and Jack played by Leo

and how he kind of like courted Rose.

So, there some of that I think we could

probably rehash just cuz a lot of people

>> want to know

>> didn't hear the last episode and that

was also at the very end. So, they may

not have gotten there. But you mentioned

the different things you were teaching

across the lectures for love and you

mentioned like sexual energy,

transcendent love, parents love. So

maybe we could just go one by one here

>> and break down how Bangal put together

each idea to explain it scientifically

how love works. Well, it's uh I have to

go back and retrieve some of those files

because it's been it's been a week, you

know, and and I've done so much in that

week after in terms of of of just

lecturing and and talking about

different things. So, but I so I

definitely have to think. So, what did I

talk about? So, romantic love, there are

different stages of romantic love.

There's obviously what's called

infatuation

>> and and and

you might call the initial. So when you

see a woman for the first time you see a

woman she walks by you she's very

attractive she comes towards you and you

just find her attractive right that's

testosterone driven it's it's very much

in dopamine vententral stray of the

brain the vententral straight is this

portion of the brain important for

dopamine creating dopamine as we know

dopamine is this reward chemical in the

brain makes you agitated makes you sort

of your heart is beating boom boom boom

all that so that's initial state okay

very testosterone and dopamine driven

second what might happen then is

romantic love kicks in. You might, you

know, you build a relationship with that

girl. There's something going on that's

a little bit deeper. Now you you start

to get to know her and all that. And

that is a different different circuits

in the brain. Now you're dealing with

circuits like if it kind of expands a

little bit and get and it gets a bit

deeper, you have things like serotonin

dropping in the brain. This is this is

actually counterintuitive because

serotonin is this feel-good hormone. Now

when you have serotonin in the in the

system, you kind of feel relaxed. You

feel kind of, you know, calm. You feel

good. You're very sort of inner driven.

So you you feel inner driven. You kind

of you kind of have calmness in you. Now

when it goes down, you become more

obsessive. In fact, in fact, in monkeys,

if you if you if you that circuit in the

brain going from the medial prefrontal

cortex, the mid prefrontal cortex to the

basil ganglia and other regions of the

brain involved in sort of obsessive

thinking. If you if you if you cut

serotonin in that circuit, you become

highly obsessive.

>> So serotonin is is very very important

for reducing obsessions. But obviously

when you fall in love, you have a lot of

obsessions. So serotonin goes out the

window. In fact, the prefrontal cortex,

the very front of your brain, the

logical reasoning,

you know, um, planning part of the brain

shuts down.

>> So, you have that.

>> Second. Second, you have a part of the

brain called the TPJ, the temporal

parietal junction. We talked about that

last time. That is a region up here in

this part of the brain. It's involved,

it's involved in creating a sense of a

body image. So, me baland, I feel like I

occupy this body. I don't feel like I

occupy, you know, Julian's body or Brad

Pitt's body, unfortunately. Okay. I

occupy occupied this body, right? Glad

you like my jokes. I these jokes

sometimes a misfire during lectures.

>> No, you're good. You're good. You got a

bad audience if they're misfiring. Brad

Pit was looking good in F1. I got to say

that [ __ ] is like 65 or

something. He was He was doing all

right. He's pretty cool. He's pretty

cool.

>> Hey guys, three quick things. Number

one, if you haven't subscribed, please

subscribe. It's a huge huge help. Number

two, if you'd like to join my Patreon

for early uncensored releases of the

full episodes, you can join via the link

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make money, you can join via the Discord

link in my description below. So, the

TPJ creates a sense of a body image,

it's up here. And it works by pulling

sensory information from various senses,

seeing, touch, taste, tactile sensations

and then draws that information and

builds a sense of a self.

>> So this is very a very key structure to

know. It's important in just creating

you by pulling information from the

world. So you have the TPJ. Now the TPJ

when you are in a romantic situation, it

actually shuts down.

>> Yeah.

>> And so there's a sense of unison with

the lover. you feel like you're becoming

one with her. You know, it's very

important. It's actually very critical

and and and key piece of it.

>> And that doesn't happen at all during

the infatuation phase. That's when it

gets to the romantic phase.

>> This isn't the romantic phase. In the

initial in the initial stages in in the

pure obs in the pure passionate

infatuation stage, it's much more it's

much more it's much more passionate

driven. It's much more sexual. You know

what I mean? It doesn't have that

>> the these neural circuits are not active

in the same manner as we see now. It's

clearly different when you actually have

that romantic stage.

>> Is there something specific like a line

in the sand if you will that happens or

that needs to happen to cross officially

from the infatuation stage to the

romantic stage?

>> It's a good question.

I think what it is is reciprocity. So

once you get okay so you see the girl

she's she's she's good-looking she's

pretty and you have the initial drive

okay then there's some reciprocity maybe

you get to know her a little bit there's

some continuity in time so you get to

see her a few times that can

lead to the more sort of romantic stage

now the preffrontal kicks in now the

prefrontal is is important because the

preffrontal I said it shuts down but

there's also a

prefrontal element in romantic love. Let

me explain. So when you first see the

girl in the infatuation stage, there's

also another structure called the

insula. It's up uh it's in behind the

ears. It's very important actually. This

is the

region of the brain that maps all your

sensory states. So so your your

breathing, your heart rate, your all

that is is mapped onto the insula. Okay?

So it maps all that. And so any given

moment I'm sort of looking at Joey. I'm

I'm looking around in the studio. My

insula is kind of mapping all that and

saying how is my stomach right now?

How's my heart? How does how does the

external world map onto my internal

world? That's the insula doing that. And

then based on that, it sends signals

back to my prefrontal conceptual part of

the brain. And then it helps me build a

narrative around the world if that makes

sense. Now when I see a girl for the

first time, obviously there's a lot of

insula going on. My heart is beating.

Boom boom boom. My my I'm sweating a

little bit. I could measure that if I

wanted to using sort of galvanic skin

response, skin conductance.

>> Galbanic.

>> Yeah, it's called galvanic skin

response. So you can measure sweating on

on the on the on the body when you're

it's it's a micro sweating, you know,

you can't really So you have that. So

there's a clearly a physiological

reaction. So you have the insula, very

active. You have a part of the brain I

didn't mention before. It's called the

hypothalamus.

>> Hypothalamus. Did I talk did we talk

about the hypothalamus?

>> I think we touched it, but it was in

another context.

>> It's another context. It's a one of the

most fascinating part of the brains in

the brain. It it's fascinating because

the hypothalamus is this this marble-l

like structure and it's kind of deeper

in the brain but what it does is it has

tons of functions and it is very small

but it had tons of functions. For

example, for example, when I

have when I feel aggressive, okay, when

I have aggression in me, okay, and I

feel aggressive, guess what happens? the

hypothalamus is all active and it sends

commands to something called the

pituitary and it and it then releases

hormones. So cortisol, adrenaline is

then released eventually from the

adrenal glands behind you here, your

behind your kidneys, above your kidneys.

That's the hypothalamus. But it's also

involved in sex drive. Curiously, the

same part of the brain is involved in

sexual motivation and aggression.

Which begs the question like why are

some men motivated sexually by

aggressive scenarios? Like why do you

have male dominance in prison, you know,

in prison scenarios and and and males

wanting to dominate others and the

sexual component of that or even rape

scenarios or men just being turned on by

highly violent scenarios. Well, it turns

out the same part of the brain that

mediates that processes aggression and

processes sexuality is the same. It's

the same literally the same structure.

>> That makes a lot of sense. And it, like

you said, it can that can be very dark

if you do the wrong way.

>> It can be very Yeah, absolutely.

>> In other ways though, creates odd social

situations. That's why it's just as tail

as old as time. Like whenever there's a

woman involved, [ __ ] gets weird right in

the middle. And I I kind of liken it

sometimes to

>> like when you see dogs with a with with

a with a fire hydrant. Yep.

>> You know what I mean? Yeah. Like when

two tough looking dogs could be walking

up towards the hydrant and one of them

pisses on at first and the other like

can never come back to that hydrant. You

know what I mean? It's a very strange

thing like this competitive thing that

happens like ah you lose out once you

get your balls cut off in a way is the

other dog got it right.

>> Sorry to talk about it this way but this

is how it is. And then doesn't matter

like you go away you come back you

strike doesn't matter. you're kind of

like, ah,

>> can't ever go on that street again. You

know, it's a strange strange thing. I

think it kind of comes from that same

>> same thing. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It's it's interesting with the with the

insula and how it works and how

aggression and sexuality, but but it

definitely can explain a lot of things.

In fact, the insula is also the disgust

part of the brain. So, when I feel

disgusted,

you know, let's say you're touching some

vomit over there and I watch you, I feel

disgusted, for example. So, there's a

disgust component and that's the insula.

It lights up like Time Square when

whenever I'm disgusted. But it turns out

it turns out that the insula is also

activated when I experience social

disgust. So for example, if you tell me

that these people over there are

barbarians, these people are evil, they

want to occupy our land, they are just

bad, the insula part of the brain also

lights up.

>> So it turns out the same part of the

brain lights up when I'm socially

disgusted and when I'm actually

disgusted. And that brings us to a key

point of sort of how we dehumanize other

people and how

>> yes

>> wars are generated in the world. Well,

it turns out if the same part of the

brain turns up, you know, is activated

with social like with actual disgust and

social disgust, you can see how you

become disgusted, literally disgusted by

by another group of people, by somebody

you think is is evil and and and has bad

intentions. So the brain is kind of

sloppy in in ways. It kind of reuses

circuits all the time and and the more

brain brain part like regions in the

brain the more prox closer the proximity

the more the cross activation and sort

of and and misfiring so to speak. So

basic that is a principle in the brain

that's a principle so the there's often

the sloppy wiring and yeah as I said the

closer the the better and and or sorry

the more c potential for cross

activation. One of the most famous

mushrooms in history isn't psychedelic,

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below. Are there ways to,

I don't know,

control these types of things and try to

stop them from happening? Like if you if

I know, for example, I'm going to [ __ ]

up some of the names of the different

regions of the brain. you just gave like

10 of them. But if I know that one

reason region of the brain is is

literally evolutionary wired to make me

do X and I know that ahead of time, is

there a way for me to like I don't know

like try to like program my brain to

avoid that and actually be able to avoid

the release of the hormones associated

with whatever X feeling is.

It's hard. But but I think the knowledge

of the fact that your brain repurposes

itself all the time can be helpful.

>> So just knowing that for example you you

have a wife and then you call her by

your ex by the ex-wife's name.

>> Oh that's a no no.

>> That is that is a no no right. But that

is an example of how the brain sort of

can reuse the same circuitry. Literally

the the circuitry that I have for my

mother as a child and we could go into

that is the same circuitry I will use

for romantic partner 20 years later.

Sigman Freudian stuff going on.

>> No, no, this is attachment theory. It's

pretty well known. So this is a this is

a very robust finding. So we know that

our attachments with our mothers and

with our with our you know our our

caregivers that will translate into how

we bond with with with future romantic

partners. So this is well known.

But on the repurposing and and the cross

activation part, there's another really

curious observation. So on the in the

brain, right? So in the by the way if

I'm going too heavy with the technical

terms

>> great bro relax relax you're good keep

going good so here there's a strip

called the sensory map this is a post

central gyus for the nerds out there

post central gyus it's a sensory map of

the entire body

>> so just like we have a map for our

neurological sense of being anchored in

this body we also have an actual sensory

map for our body so if I was to hit my

leg like this and slap it. Literally,

there's a leg portion and there's a

thigh portion in my brain on my map

here, there's like actually a there's a

drawing almost or literally there is a

drawing of an actual human body on my

sensory map.

>> So if I on the on vice versa, if I go up

here and I stimulate that part of the

brain, I would literally feel sensations

in my leg. So I can go that way too.

>> So I touch it, it lights up, I stimulate

it, I feel it in the leg. Okay. Now, so

it's kind of drawn like a human being,

but it's kind of disproportional to the

actual human size. In other words,

you'll find a big tongue and the tongue

is huge, humongous,

gigantic. You'll find lips are huge.

Okay? Feet are huge.

>> Hands, especially the fingers are huge.

Then Julian might ask, how come? Why do

you have certain parts of the sensory

map being larger than others? What do

you think? Take a guess.

>> My only guess is that it's tied to like

the things

>> you look for in evolution. And here's

what I mean by that.

>> Yeah.

>> Like if you look at monkeys when they

have to attack.

>> Yeah.

>> They go for the face and the hands. So

the hands can't fight back and the face,

you know, gets blinded and whatever. And

it's because like that's at the

>> top of their thought process of what can

disable the enemy. Yes. And so I think

my guess very uneducated but my guess

would be that it has something to do

with there are things that we

subconsciously pay attention to more on

people than other things and we make

that maybe larger than life.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's very close. These

are the parts that are more sensory

rich.

>> That doesn't sound like I was that

close.

>> No, no. You're saying these these parts

are most important. That's what you're

saying, right? We use them. They're most

important because they're rich in

sensory receptors. Think about it. Your

lips, right? extremely sensitive your

tongue, you know, if you if I take a

needle and prick Julian's tongue, lots

of pain, right? Very sensitive. Versus,

you know, if I if I if I prick your

stomach, not very sensitive. So, because

there's so many so many neurons devoted

for your tongue, that part of the of the

brain is is the map is just the tongue

is just huge.

>> In fact, even your genital genitalia is

huge up there.

>> It's very sensory.

>> It's huge in all of our minds. Now, now

here's the punch line of all all this.

Okay, the punch line is the following.

You will find in that map, even though

it's kind of drawn as a human being, the

feet are extremely close to the

genitalia in that map. And then you

might ask, why this? Why this

disfigurement? What's going on here? Why

would you have the feet being close to

the genitalia? Right? big foot, big you

know

and the answer seems to be

that

have you ever somebody ever told you

like my one of my Ramachandran we talked

about Ramachandra last time he told me

yes my mentor who he told me

>> you never want to have

>> another man give your wife a foot

massage

>> specifically a foot massage is is is is

really bad now I obviously wouldn't I

wouldn't go for any massage okay But but

I'm saying you you foot massage you

would definitely not go for.

>> It seems like because of the potential

cross activation between feet and

genitalia because they are so linked in

the brain in that map that explains why

you can actually elicit sensual and

erotic emotions by massaging the feet if

that makes sense.

>> Is that why like people are so into

that? That's like one of the biggest

online.

>> I think so. I think so. I said

definitely cross activation is in the

brain is is a major principle and these

these two regions of the brain aren't

just neighbors they are literally like

next door to each other and so you would

expect some cross activation when you

touch the other you might feel it in the

other part

>> you're talk you're talking

when you say we're looking at the most

sensory areas in my head I'm getting a

little biased towards like touch and

feel

>> yes

>> but obviously the senses are far beyond

that And

>> the most important sense maybe that we

have, I don't know if that's correct,

but

>> is vision and seeing other people

because

>> my head immediately goes to the first

thing I notice and someone is the thing

I'm most drawn to is their eyes.

Particularly with women, if I don't like

you be the hottest girl of all time. If

if if I don't have that connection with

your eyes, it's never going to happen.

>> There's something with the eyes.

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. The v

vision is is important and it is the

most important sensory u you know organ

that we have this you know sensory

region I mean there's 30 regions in the

brain for vision alone I think in the

cortex you have about

>> so the brain is 100 billion neurons and

30 bill 30 billion in is in the cortex

>> that's the outer layer had six part as

we talked about last last time and in

that sensory region I think about

onethird of that whole region is devoted

to vision alone it's the it's the sense

most important for for survival. So yes,

absolutely it is definitely crucial.

But yeah, man, like so as you were

talking about, you have the

hypothalamus, the aggression and the sex

part of the brain activate when you have

that initial um view of that woman.

There is the insula is active. So you

have that whole body thing. Testosterone

is active. Then you ask me the the key

question, how does it flip over? And I

think as I said, it's reciprocity. is is

some kind of some kind of

I won't say bonding because that's

actually the next step. So if you have

step step one is romantic is is

infatuation then you have the romance

and then you have as the third the the

bonding attachment so that comes later.

So once

>> that comes later

>> that comes later. So the initial stages

is kind of it's very dopamine driven as

well. So there's a lot of dopamine there

too. In other words,

it's excitement. It's intoxicating.

You see her, then she goes away. It's

this dance between knowing and

unknowing. It's very tentalizing, very

titillating all the time. But then you

hit the attachment stage and that's when

you have something. You have oxytocin

and vasopressin. These bonding hormones

kick in and then they create safety

around that person. You feel you feel

safe around them. You kind of feel like

they will stay. They will not leave you.

There's security. As we talked about

last time, cortisol also goes through

the roof during the that romantic

infatuation stage. That's why you cannot

say

>> infatuation in particularly, right?

>> Infatuation and the romance stage. In

fact, that that six to eight weeks for

some it's more maybe three months.

>> So you Oh, so you time you put a timer

on it too.

>> Yeah. Like you can't go forever. So I

might say eight weeks that part of So

it's interesting that that infatuation

stage. No, sorry. that romantic stage,

right? Um, so let's call the first one

attraction,

>> attraction stage, attraction versus

romantic obsession versus bonding. These

are the three stages. Okay. Now, in the

romance, the heightened romance state

that is about 8 weeks, maybe max 6

months, you would run out. your brain.

Literally, if I was to scan Julian in

this in this romantic state and look at

your brain, your dopamineergic neurons

would look like somebody on crack

cocaine.

>> Literally, you would you would have a

>> sense of

you would have a you know, your brain

would be hyper sensitized to to dopamine

and you would and that also causes

what's called globalization. So you go

about in in life and you and you see a

dog and you find oh it's so cute and you

look at a flower and it's wow it's so

beautiful and the sunset and everything

the whole world is is in fact beautiful

and and that's because when we fall in

love we don't only fall in love

with that person we fall in love with

the world in fact and and the whole and

the whole world becomes poetic

>> when we do fall in love

>> and

it's that is what it is and And

>> I the timeline is what's interesting to

me.

>> Well, let me let me start with this

question. How would you

how would you define love if you had to

define it and you can take as much time

as you want to think about that.

>> So I would define love as it would

depend on the kind of attachment there

is right. So or the kind of experience

you have. So the the the love between my

mother and father, the love that I have

for them, the maternal and paternal love

is different.

>> Interestingly, you have many of the same

structures being activated. So you do

have when I for example have bonding

with my mother, you do have some of the

same regions like the prefrontal might

short shut down a little bit. It's more

kind of in the

oxytocin bonding. So oxytocin gives you

bonding and feeling of of good if that

makes sense.

>> But the key difference between romantic

love and between love of a mother and

paternal love, maternal love is that is

that hypothalamus region of the brain,

that sexuality part that turns on. It

dials up when it's when you have you

have romance. But you do, to go into

this for a second,

you do form patterns in how you were

nurtured with your mom and what you look

for in a woman in many cases.

>> 100%. Yeah. So this goes back to what's

called attachment theory. And this is

the idea that

>> this goes back to some experiments that

were done a very long time ago. And what

they showed were so you had like a kid

you put a kid in a in a room in a

laboratory and the kid is there with the

mom. There's a stranger in the

laboratory too. Then you observe how

that kid

first interacts with the stranger when

the mom is there. That's the first step.

Will the will the kid feel be clingy to

the mom and just hold on to mom mom you

know or would it literally go over to

the to the stranger and play around?

there's some toys in that room as well.

That's the first observation. Next, the

the mom will leave. So mom leaves as the

next step. And then you observe the kid.

Does it cry? Does it feel So let's say

in in in in some cases it may feel safe.

It may just maybe maybe be a little bit

sad, but then after a few minutes it

kind of feels okay. It goes and plays

with the stranger. It might it explores

a territory even though it's kind of

feels a little bit abandoned, but it's

it's okay. It feels okay overall.

Then what happens is the mom comes back.

How does the child react? Does it hug

mom? Does it reject mom?

What's the reaction? Now depending on

your re on the child's reaction in all

of these scenarios that will show what

kind of attachment you have and what

kind of attachment you will have later

on in life. So a securely attached

person when mom leaves first of all

they're not very clingy with mom when

mom is there and then when mom leaves

they will play around have fun with the

stranger a little bit you know be very

broadly explo explore the space then

when mom comes back they may feel a

little bit sad but then they feel okay

and forgives her and and continues and

move on.

>> This is the securely attached

but then you have people that are

insecurely attached for example. So when

mom first of all when mom is there

they're very clingy they cling to mom

all the time they want to hold her and

no no no one want to go to that stranger

and then when mom leaves they cry they

ignore the stranger they just stay in

their place

and then when mom comes back they feel

resentment towards mom they don't want

to forgive mom and they just feel like

you know mom abandoned them

>> how did both of those people translate

later into romance romantic how they

form their romantic relationships.

>> I'll get there. There's a third one is

which which really interesting. This is

this okay this is the distant this is

the kind of the ambiguously attack like

this is this is not ambiguous. This is

the one you'd call um so the these are

the avoidant people. These are the

avoidant. Look these these are very

interesting. When mom is there kind of

cold detached from mom they're not

really hugging mom much. When she

leaves, they're kind of they don't show

any reaction. They don't show any kind

of, you know, sadness about her leaving.

When she comes back, they're kind of uh

duh. By the way, they don't play with

the stranger when mom is away. They kind

of

>> just just sit there. This is very

interesting type, avoidant.

Now, now to your question, how does it

translate into actual relationships

later on?

Literally that pattern will play out in

how you bond with others. So if I have a

romantic partner and I'm this securely

attached,

I will feel okay with her once in a

while leaving, right? I don't need to

like when she go on vacation, I don't

panic. I don't become like my heart

won't like, you know, become all

agitated. My physiology won't just go

all over the, you know, place. I can

feel calm. I can soo my nervous system.

In fact, these experiments have been

shown even with physiological measures.

So you measure the bar bo the the body

the heart rate sweating and and you

literally see how the brain activates

physiologically and for the insecure pe

insecure children you have all these

these physiological reactions heartbeat

no adrenaline adrenaline it's it's just

all over the roof everything goes

through the roof. Now in romantic

scenarios, a securely attached people

will be fine with with the lover going

on vacation. They can soo themsel, tell

themsel, "Oh, it's okay. She's merely

just left for a little, you know, um

vacation. They can soo themselves when

she comes back." They may feel a little

bit annoyed if they if she didn't tell,

you know, warned them or something that

she was leaving, but they could they can

forgive easily,

>> right? And then you can see the insecure

how that how that kid would react. that

kid would be when when you know very

very clingy and then when she leaves

they they become all agitated and just

all all sort of they can't control

themselves and and then when she comes

back they feel angry at the lover. Does

the pattern clear? I hope I'm not.

>> It does. No, it's perfectly clear. I'm

I'm curious cuz those are polar

opposites, right?

>> Polar opposite.

>> So on the first one who's not clingy

>> and is secure. Yeah. There was a loving

I I'm trying to figure out where the

mom's responsibility of just how they

handle love comes in here. Like there

was a loving relationship with the mom,

but there was an ability for

>> in the environment early on from being

an infant on the mom was able to set

some boundaries with like

>> how much they were completely attached

at the hip, if you will.

>> Yes. In scenario two, the mom

maybe was literally attached at the hip

to the kid to the point that the kid

developed in a way that when that's not

the case, they don't even know what to

do with themselves.

>> It's true. And and I and I have a family

member. I don't want to mention them

because, you know, in the case it's it's

for example, right? So, but I do know

somebody from my family, you know, the

way she interacts with her kids, she's

making them clingy, you know, she's just

giving them so much love, but it doesn't

allow them to sort of explore the world.

It's the love is just too much. It's too

much. It's like, you know, you have to

be with me all the time. I have to take

care of you. And it's it comes from a

good place, right? It's love. But I feel

like those those kids whenever they got

go out to the world, they just can't be

without mom. You you have to let

children go.

>> Can't helicopter.

>> Yeah. You have to let children go out

and and and explore the world and and be

independent. You can't give them too

much love. Even though you love them,

right? You you do want to

>> put brakes on that a little bit. So So

your your children become independent.

>> Absolutely. It's just interesting how

the nurturing aspect is how you later

form the romantic aspect, but with the

romantic aspect, you're adding the next

layer of the hypothalamus gets involved.

Yes. And there's a sexual element to it,

obviously, which is perfectly how it's

supposed to be. It's just evolution

right there.

>> But it's it's

>> the part that keeps sticking out to me

is the way that you put

>> a timelength on on where you go from

phase to phase. And I don't know, it's

>> it's definitely more anecdotal how I'm

thinking about it, cuz I'm thinking

about like the three times in my life

that I've been in love and they didn't

follow a time phase at all. One time was

like, you know, a 3-w week kind of

shotgun somewhere else in the world.

Total headover heels kind of thing. That

probably happened in like 3 days.

>> Yes.

>> Falling in love. Another one took

probably about 3 weeks or so

>> to get there. Another one took more like

months,

>> you know. So, they they followed

different patterns. But I I'd love to

get your thoughts on this. When it comes

to romantic love, I've always had two

definitions.

>> Yes. for how love works. And there's

actually a different form on the way

that I phrase each one.

>> Yeah.

>> One is strictly the word love.

>> Yeah.

>> And love is like a feeling that kind of

gets under your skin and gets into your

nervous system. You cannot explain it,

but it's when you see in in my case

seeing a woman where out of nowhere

there's that little thing where time

stops. You connect with her in a way

that you cannot possibly explain. And

you don't really know this person well.

Maybe you've talked to them a few times,

but you don't know them that well. But

you have this moment in this context, in

this place, in this time, wherever it

may be, where when you are looking at

them, you're seeing a piece of your soul

in them, and you realize that you would

get in front of a train and lay down

your your life for this woman, no

questions asked, but you cannot explain

why.

>> Yes. The second layer that happens is

being in love.

>> Yes.

>> And there you have to, in my opinion,

there's really two things that have to

happen. The first one definitely has to

happen. The second thing usually has to

happen. The first one is you have to

have gotten to know that person. Now,

this could happen over a day or two

where you're just sitting there talking

like there's no clock on the wall and

understanding every single person's

about the every single thing about this

person's life and them understanding

every part about your life and just that

magnetic chemistry is there. I've been

there. That's that's a great feeling.

>> Yeah.

>> It could also take weeks and you know

going on multiple dates or seeing seeing

them in different contexts and you know

slowly having building yourself to these

conversations.

>> Yeah. The second part is there usually

has to be something physical

>> of course

>> exchanged in in a way I don't mean to

say exchanged like a trade but you know

what I mean like there's a sexual

element to it like once you cross that

Rubicon and like

>> you have sex with a woman there there's

a connection there and there is a

>> at least from what I've seen there's

usually a stronger connection from the

woman to the male at the get-go but

there is definitely still a connection

in most cases unless you're like having

late [ __ ] drunk sex or something from

the male to the female as well. If it's

someone that you do care about and you

have that infatuation stage,

>> do you think that there's anything

scientific to back up my anecdotal

experience there and how I define those

two words, two phrases? Words. One of

them is a word, the other one's a

phrase.

>> Julian is it's it's a beautiful

definition and I think

I like your definition. And what I think

is that as scientists we often we often

try to

pinpoint various brain regions. We say

this part of the brain lights up this

shuts down this becomes titillated this

becomes tantalized. You know truth is

as Richard Fineman said the physicist it

doesn't hurt the mystery to know a

little about it.

So knowing about love and knowing about

the brain parts that light up and shut

down and all that is is great and the

chemistry of the hormones and and all

that. But you mentioned something that

really struck me

in in in meet Joe Black

when have you seen that coffee shop

scene is a very famous scene when he

says you know u lightning might strike

you know he's talking about meeting

meeting the one and then he says Brad

Pitt's character the he says lightning

might might strike and I think we can

spend centuries decades

exploring the neuroscience of love but

when Shakespeare said, "Shall I compare

thee to a summer's day? Thou art more

lovely and more temperate, rough winds

to shake the darling butts of May, and

some as le has all too short a date.

Sometimes too hot the eye of heaven

shines,

and often is his gold complexion

dimmed."

I think that captures much more than we

can capture in brain scans. What

Shakespeare is saying here, he's saying

in short,

your love is much more beautiful than a

summer's day. It's much more temperate.

A summer's day has a short lease.

Its complexion might be too the sun

might be too shiny.

Okay?

And and he's using all these vivid

metaphors to capture what love is all

about.

that I think we could never

capture using neuroscience and brain. So

I think

>> Billy Shakes was the truth.

>> He was the truth. And I think there's

something there. I think there's

something there about about about love

about when lightning strikes that we

cannot capture in words.

>> There's a line that always stuck with

me. It was a Sicilian saying that they

put in the Godfather when Michael sees

Appalonia for the first time.

>> Yes. and

one of his guards says to him,

>> "He's been struck by the thunderbolt."

>> Yeah.

>> And you see, I mean, it's perfectly

shown on screen, just like the two

staring at each other, and she's not

really sure what to think yet, but you

know what he's thinking. And I I you

know, the irony is obviously there's no

such thing as a thunderbolt, but it's

like this unexplained phenomenon where

you hear it and you know what it means

even if it doesn't exist and it's just a

thing. And I've definitely experienced

that before where where you are in a

situation where you don't

>> That's the thing. I' I've experienced

that

at least four times before.

>> And you never expect it to happen.

That's the magic of it. You're never

like, "Oh, this is this is how it's

going to go or like this is going to

unfold right now." You're like, "What?"

And

>> yeah,

>> what the [ __ ] just happened to me?

>> Absolutely. It it is like lightning

striking you and and and

as a poetic person myself, somebody who

loves poetry, you know, and and and

having a poetic view and and a spiritual

view of the world, I I literally cannot

say other than it seems like a divinely

>> divine thing when you you do meet

somebody and and there's that connection

and then when you get to know them and

it kind of just there's a harmony there

and there's a sense of like, you know,

souls connecting that definitely that's

that's something something special that

that that science

can cannot capture. But I but I do think

poetry can sometimes tap into and and

give you

>> give you a feel for what what it feels

like that experiential that personal

sense of of of of having that

connection.

>> Oh, I agree completely.

>> Yeah.

>> Is there science to back the idea that

some such thing as a soulmate exists?

like people actually do have some I

always like the the wedding crashers

definition of this a counterpoint of

their soul and another person that

exists on the planet.

>> Yeah, it's a good question. I do I I

kind of believe in in in that there are

people out there that are divinely

ordained to be ours and that just

>> you know their souls is sort of souls

connecting but obviously that's outside

parameters of science. From a scientific

perspective, we had what's we have what

is called a positive delusion. So when

you do fall in love, you have to you you

will need to be you need to have that

feeling that she's the only one in the

whole world that can

>> Yeah.

>> that can she's the only one in other

words like that. Appalonia and and and

like Michael Corleion, right, in

Sicilia,

>> that feeling must be there of of that

she's the only one. And that is the

prefrontal shutting down and the TPJ

shutting down. And so you kind of feel

one with her and and and and the

dopamine centers are because they're so

hyperactive,

they can create delusions.

>> We know that when serotonin goes down,

when this chemical of of calmness and

all that goes down and and eventually

the and dopamine goes up, especially

with dopamine going up to the prefrontal

cortex, that's when delusions can occur.

Like in OCD, for example, you have the

exact same pattern. OCD kind of looks

like romantic love, like that

obsessional component, right? Obsess

obsession about the girl, you know, has

she texted me? You go check the

messages. Has she texted and you keep

checking and you know, so that's that's

that's kind of like the OCD scenario.

And OCD, you have tons of delusions,

too.

>> The whole world is contaminated.

Everything is is is is dangerous. You

know,

>> it's fascinating. That's on like the

same wavelength.

>> Same wavelength, right? So, but

definitely dopamine and and delusions

are is are a key component of that

positive delusion of of of that she's

the only one. But it has to be there.

You have to have that positive delusion.

That's important. You need it for for

romantic for romantic bonding, you know,

and for for romantic love.

>> All right, real fast. I just got to use

the bathroom, but I want to stay on

this. This is really good. We'll be

right back.

>> All right.

All right. We're back. So, how do you

attraction's obviously a key part of

forming love or getting to that point

and whatever, but you also see

>> the fact that male and female brains

>> work entirely differently. They they

have different phases as well. And so

attraction isn't like just this vacuum

all the time where you have it and then

it's just there and that's what it is.

You can go through hot and cold periods

where it's like you like someone and

then out of nowhere you can't explain

why, but you hate them and then

eventually you like them again. Then

maybe you love them, but then you really

hate them. I'm not even talking about

like when you're in a relationship, just

in general with friendships as well that

could later become something like that.

How do we scientifically maybe start

with females? How does

>> how does it happen to where females can

go so hot and cold on liking you one

minute and not being about you the next

minute? Hot and cold is interesting. Did

we talk about emotional contrast last

time?

>> No.

>> Emotional contrast is a is an

interesting one. So I I wasn't aware of

this

>> previously, but I kind of became I had

to study this and and and learn about

this. It's fascinating. So we as men are

taught that we have to be kind of cool

and laidback and and not really give

ourselves to a woman, not show our

emotions perhaps and and just kind of be

laidback and all that. And it turns out

there's a powerful concept with

emotional contrast where if you can be

extremely hot, like very hot by hot, I

mean extremely warm at one person at one

point in time. So, you kind of reveal

your emotions

and you kind of let the person know that

you're really into her, but then you

call the next

>> Yeah. push

>> push pull

>> that titillates the dopamineergic

centers like you know drives them crazy.

Obviously, you don't want to do this.

You don't want to do this in a where you

play games. But it teaches us that

if you

are vulnerable and let somebody know how

you feel and they don't

reciprocate that by going away, that can

be one of the most attractive things

ever to drive attraction because

>> attraction grows in space.

>> It grows in space, but it grows

specifically when the dopamineergic

neurons have something to anchor onto,

to tether onto. So if you give them

literally some you know some warmth some

some some some kind of clear signals of

interest and then go away and allow for

the space that's when I when really

something happens versus like being

playing it cool all the time.

>> So I think that is an interesting

you know part of how dopamine works.

I think that how does attraction work? I

think attraction works on a lot of

things. There's a lot of there's a lot

of when it comes to attraction there are

various components. There's the innate

attraction females for example have for

males and how males look. This is

something innate they can't help. So

broad shoulders, you know, big bre, you

know, breast for some extent, you know,

extended muscle musculature, upper

breast, you know, and upper chest I

should say and

little bit of of of of um masculine

traits could help.

So they have we have women have this

they have this this innate inclination

toward masculine traits, traits that

signal testosterone, right?

>> Yeah, we have it too in the other

direction.

>> We have it in the other direction.

>> Hourglass, you know,

>> estrogen. Yeah. our glass. We have a

specific interest in a figure that's

called zero um 0.70. That's the playboy

figure. That's males will consistently

rate that figure as most attractive. In

fact, they will rate that 0.70. Female

figure as you know women who have this

figure as more intelligent, as more

healthy, as more as better, more moral

in every category is just better.

>> So, we'll put that up on the screen so

people can see. It turns out good and

beauty is mediated in the same part of

the brain called the orbital frontal

cortex.

So that's why you see a Disney character

like Belle,

>> she's beautiful and she's good,

>> right?

>> There's tons of these example. Jasmine

is beautiful and good

>> and and and you know Scar in Lion King,

he's he's evil and and he has a big scar

and he's got kind of skinny compared to

to um

>> to uh Mufasa and and Simba and all

those. So there's that component and

they they and and and good cartoonists

will you know exploit that.

>> Absolutely.

>> But yeah that's the orbital frontal

cortex and

so for female for males obviously big

breast clear skin

>> clear skin is a signal of good good

health for females. So if a female has

clear skin that is a indicator of good

health parasite infection is probably

less in such women. Think about old in

savannah days right? So if she has clear

skins, she was probably not infected by

parasites in when in in the womb. She

had a better better immune system

probably,

>> right? So these are all indicators of

health and fertility.

>> In fact, my my mentor Ramachand has a

paper is called why gentlemen prefer

blondes. Okay? Now this now this paper

he he meant it as a satire, but he said

to me and he said that publicly that

there's about 10% chance of it being

true. But the argument is that male will

prefer females that have very fair skin

and and are blondes because

you can detect parasites and health

easily on a skin that's fair like a more

fair skin, a more white skin and also

things signs of blushing. For example,

if she was to be if she was to engage in

infertil, you know, in cheat on you, you

would know easily. She would blush and

it would be more visible on the skin.

>> Now, since Rama has has Ramachandran has

said since that it's probably not all

true, but there could be some truth to

that. I mean, I don't personally know if

it's always true. In my case, I actually

have probably more attracted to more

brown skin. That's kind of um how I um

but

>> yeah, I'm thinking of bias in my head

right now. They

>> I like Mediterranean women.

>> Yeah. Italian

>> out there. But like

>> Yeah.

>> Their skin is very often like incredible

and you can tell it's incredible. Like

maybe I'm biased, but they have like the

best skin in the world.

>> Yes. But what Ramachandran's talking

about is that

you can tell I think what basically what

he's saying is in that theory you can

see contrast more.

>> You can see contrast more absolutely

>> to be able to identify a weakness but

also I don't know maybe I'm like trying

to picture that in my head right now.

It's hard for me to

>> Yeah.

>> I I guess it would depend on the tint or

something but like

>> I agree. I think I think basically what

I agree with in that theory is that men

prefer clear skin. clear skin that's

what we prefer and that's a sign you

know an indicator of health and

fertility and so I think

>> that is I think that is correct and and

yeah man I think overall why do you so

you might ask how how come how come

Julian how come Julian then prefers a

woman with Mediterranean how come I

prefer a brown

>> I don't know I never

that's like the last six seven years I I

didn't used to like have a type Yeah,

>> I can tell you I damn well didn't have a

type in college where you could get it.

But like, you know what I mean?

>> Yeah. Yeah, I know. Something happened

there.

>> Something happened there. So, there's a

theory to explain all this. So, there's

one theory where

>> So, me personally, Baland, when I grew

up in Copenhagen and in the ghetto in

Copenhagen, you know, exposed to a lot

of white women.

>> He was a gangster, by the way. People

didn't hear the last episode. Balain was

Balain was wielding that knife around.

>> He kept that thing on him.

>> Definitely. You know, I so what what I

was what I was what I was exposed to

were was was white women

>> and I think I had a little bit of that

remnants of of of of liking more and

this is talking about like a

seven-year-old kid, right? But finding

girls with more brown hair attractive,

but but obviously more of a Danish

European, right? The blondes didn't turn

me on in that way. Blue eyes is just

probably genetically was a little bit

too far from my for my um for my taste.

But then I find over the years it kind

of shifted more towards from Danish to

more brown to more and then brown more

brown with each gradient like with each

with time and we can talk about how that

occurs in the brain. What's going on?

>> Let's do that.

>> Let's do that. So first of all,

did we talk about the triangle and the

square last time? No. This is So I

sometimes mix these things up, Julian. I

don't know where I talk about what. I

don't want to repeat myself obviously,

but so

>> you haven't we really haven't done

anything in this episode that we talked

about last time. You're doing great. So,

keep going.

>> I appreciate it, brother. So, you show a

rat a triangle. Okay.

Uh, actually, you show a rat a

rectangular rectangular figure versus a

square. This is the rat, okay?

Rectangular square. Okay? And each time

you show the rat the rectangular square,

you give it a cheese, piece of cheese.

Now, guess what happens when you just

show the rectangular versus the square?

Which will it prefer? The rectangular or

the square?

>> The one that you get the cheese on.

>> Rectangular. Now, here's the kicker.

>> Now, you show a more rectangular shape

than the original rectangular

shape that that the rat was exposed to.

So you have the original rectangular

shape that the rat saw that was paired

with the cheese

>> and then a different even more

rectangular

>> longer one

>> a elongated one.

>> Which one will the

>> rat prefer?

>> Elongated one.

>> Correct. The question is why that make

it makes no comment. It doesn't make

sense. Why would it prefer a longer one?

Why would it go for a mutated version?

>> Because it's a bigger and better version

of the thing that was already given

them.

>> Absolutely. It's it's it has learned a

rule rectangularity because the square

and the rectangular what differentiated

between the two was the more

rectangularity the better. So it it has

learned a rule that is the essence of

the difference between rectangular and

square. It has learned a rule.

>> Now that gets to things like why

caricature are so caricatures are so

damn you know we like them so much.

Okay,

you look at a picture of Nixon

or let's say let's say Donald Trump.

He's still president, right? I should be

careful. Let's say let's say let's say

you you show them a picture of Baland,

>> but you take the eyebrows and you

amplify them. You take the nose even

more pointy. Okay, the face even more

like you create something that's even

more bal than Baland himself. This is

what a character character is about.

Just like that rectangular shape, right?

when the guys draw the cartoons. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> This is called a supernormal stimulus.

It's more the essence of me than

actually me. And the brains become

titillated by this.

>> Okay. Now, let's take this to

attraction. When we initially find

somebody attractive, there's a learning

going on. So, I see that girl, she's

very pretty. You know, I'm seven, eighty

old bland. I see that girl. Well, I go

my my god, my heart is pumping. No

adrenaline in the system. Testosterone

maybe a little bit even though I'm a

kid. But I have dopamine. I have all

those things.

Now, now when I see her, my brain

creates a template for her. I go, "My

god, she is beautiful. She's gorgeous.

She is just the perfect, you know, girl

I want to play with in the in the in the

in in school, right? I want to play with

her in school. It's it's wonderful."

Now, my brain creates a circuitry around

that girl. All the features, the hair

color, the skin, all gets burned into

the circuitry.

Then then I play with her for maybe a

year. Time goes by. I see another girl.

Now I'm 13, 14. And lo and behold, I'm

attracted to her even more than the one

four or five years ago.

>> And now you're 13, 14. So Lil Balon's

attracted to her, too.

>> As you're saying, there's a sexual

component. Obviously, definitely this

testosterone goes through the roof at

this point. But but my pointed point is

in this next why do you become attracted

to the next girl? And here the point is

that your brain says or or one theory

suggests that we take the initial

features of that girl. Let's say she had

a certain shape of a nose, certain lips

and they tend to be amplified in the

next person.

>> She have she she is even more that girl

than the girl itself. She has those

amplified features and you go for that.

So there's a development of the

attraction. It takes a development where

you take those features and they're

amplified in the next person becoming a

supernormal stimulus just like that

rectangular shape. It's just more it's

more rectangular than the original one.

Does it make sense?

>> Yeah. So like when Kanye married Bianca,

she had a bigger rack than Kim K, but

she looked just like Kim K.

>> There you go. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So you have you have the original

features, but they're amplified. So this

is one idea for why how attraction then

evolves and definitely there is strong

learning and plasticity component. So

when you fall in love there's two

neurotransmitters that are crucial for

plasticity. By plasticity I mean the

brain's ability to change its shape.

>> So your brain h is made up of different

modules and structures and these

structures can change their shape. So

they can reorganize and the way they do

that is by having two neurochemicals.

One is dopamine, sense of reward. So I

see that girl, I find her attractive, I

find her interesting. You have tons of

dopamine. That's the first principle for

plasticity. And then I have

acetylcholine, which is my attention

system. This is based on a structure

called the nucleus basalis in the

midbrain of 20,000 cells. They release,

they have neurons that release this

attention chemical. So I pay attention

to her as well. So I have dopamine. I

have attention and I have the attention

as well. Attentive focus on that woman.

When I have this, I have tons of

plasticity. By the way, when we are

kids, we we find ourselves in something

called the critical period.

>> The critical period is

>> the fact that the brain is hyper plastic

until like age 12 or 13. That's why when

you learn a new language after 13, like

me, Baland learning English, it'll be

kind of like English English. But Joe,

you can tell it's not really like

there's something off with his English,

right? It's not completely full.

>> There's nothing off with your English,

>> but it's not totally like you could hear

it, right? Especially when like

>> I mean, you have a small accent about

it,

>> right? But for example,

I don't know what the [ __ ] you just

said.

>> Okay. When I speak Danish, it's

completely I don't have any issues. Even

if I'm sleepd deprived, tired, I speak

it like with no issues. But English, I

have to put a bit of an extra effort

because it's not my first language. It's

not my mother tongue. In fact, did you

know that it's

that first mother tongue is is

structured and processed in a different

part of the brain versus languages we

learn after 13. And

>> that doesn't surprise me at all.

>> But that makes sense, right? That this

is harder like when you are sleepd

deprived, you are tired and and so

forth. You literally, you know, have a

harder time with with in my case

English. It just becomes a little bit

more clumsy. It just becomes a little

bit more.

>> Do you dream in English? Now,

>> that's an interesting question.

I've thought about this. I I don't pay

attention to it. That's why I can't, you

know, because because

>> you got to get some subtitles on your

dreams. Yeah. See what's happening.

>> You know what's going on, Julian? I

think is that because because dreams are

all about the right hemisphere and and

the right hemisphere is mute. So, the so

the right hemisphere has no processing,

has no idea of language. the left

hemisphere you have a structure called

the vernicus that's involved in

understanding language and brokus area

involved in produ production of language

and this this is there's a there's a

there's a fiber called acuid faciciculus

for for the nerds out there that want to

know that combi that binds combines the

two

>> now these are in the left hemisphere and

the left hemisphere has all the language

potential all the language abilities

right is mute let me give you an example

so if I was to communicate solely with

your right hemisphere and show the right

hemisphere the word run.

Right? I'll show you run.

>> Mhm.

>> You know what it will do? It would

literally start running. Okay. You'll

start running when you see that word.

>> And imagine now this is a split brain

patient. So they can the left and the

right brain are completely separated.

They cannot they the left and the brain

cannot communicate. So there's that

caveat. So you can actually sever the

the bridge between the two hemispheres

the two sides of the brain. So the left

and the right operate separately. Now

just want to add that caveat. So you

have that and then you flash the word

run to the left to the to the right

hemisphere over here. The person start

running then you stop them and say

Julian why are you running and they will

say oh doctor I felt like I'm I'm I'm

too out of shape. I need to get in

shape. I need to build some muscle. I

need to you know do some more exercise

and work out.

They will not say that they saw the word

run in the screen because they don't

have access to language. They have no

ideas about the left hemisphere when it

speaks it's just it's just completely

has no access to to to that. Does it

make sense?

>> Yes.

>> Yes. So, so that's an example of that.

Is this also where maybe I'm relating a

wrong idea here, but you in our last

conversation you had been saying we

can't totally understand the

relationship between time and space in

the brain because things aren't

>> like you can't say that every synapse

is measured by a certain amount of time.

Some you can, some you can't. So when

you're trying to relate the left and

right brain as well and what one

distinguishes and then the action

another one then takes is it the kind of

situation where it's different

braintorain but the patterns are

similar. So time and space is a little

weird but we understand like the

direction it goes

>> if that makes sense.

>> It makes sense. So so definitely the

right and left hemisphere are process

the world differently. You decode social

expressions faces for example. I'm I'm

decoding what is Julian thinking right

now. How is his how is his facial

features? By the way, there's a

structure in the

decoding facial features is much faster

than visual recognition. Meaning there's

a part of the brain involved in visual

recognition. Face processing. We talked

about that last time. It's called the

fusifiform face area. Literally

understanding faces and and processing

them and knowing this is Julian. This is

Joey. Okay. This is Melissa. Melissa for

example.

>> Now

there's a separate pathway going from

the visual cortex. So when I see

Julian's face, it goes from the optic

nerve and then it jumps over the face

recognition area to the emotional part

initially. So in a split second, I know

Julian is angry right now. Julian is

happy right now. Julian is is a threat

right now. He might kill me. He's That's

right.

>> Right. He has, you know what I mean?

>> Yeah.

>> My point is,

>> you better watch your step.

>> My point is even before visually

recognizing somebody, you will know

their you will know their emotional

expression.

>> And women are particularly good at this.

I can tell you. So, you know, they're

very good at this.

>> Yeah, they got us sized up on that.

>> So, so, so this is very interesting that

you have the separate pathway and it's

just it just shows us that we are wired

for survival and and knowing whether

this person over here on the savannah is

a friend or a foe is much more important

than knowing who it is. In fact,

>> going back to your original question,

what was your original question? I think

we kind of went on a off a tangent here.

>> Which one?

>> I think we were on attraction. You're

talking about attraction, right?

>> Right. So, I was talking about Oh, so

you're going way back.

>> I was What I had asked you was, "Why

does attraction get hot and cold? Why

does it flip between like being so into

someone and then being completely

disgusted by that person?" It works in

in directions of both genders. I started

by asking you about why females may be

like that, but us males are like that,

too. It just might be a different

>> and then we pivoted to language and then

we pivoted to plasticity and then all

that. Yeah. I think to going back to the

original attraction question and the rat

and and yes, this is how attraction work

in the brain. I think there's that that

component to it of of definitely there's

a huge prefrontal component to

attraction as well.

>> Just like pull the chair in a little

bit. I want you comfortable. Just like

pull the chair in and sit like that.

That's cool. Sorry, I'm just lining you

up on your mark here. There we go.

>> Is that good?

>> I cut you off, but we got to get the we

got to get the mics.

>> Gotcha. Gotcha. That's good.

>> There's a huge prefrontal component to

it. Have you seen Coming to America?

>> Of course. Eddie Murphy.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> It's here in New Jersey, wasn't it? It

was like there's a new

>> They filmed it in New York and then they

had a Wasn't

>> Queens. I think it's like Queens. That's

where

>> a little bit that might have gone over

Jersey.

>> There's something going on there.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, there's a scene in that movie where

the prince

the prince's um servant Semi Okay. when

they arrived in that and they work in

that Mcdow, that fake McDonald

restaurant, and they're obviously into

the girls that work there, the two boys,

the Eddie Murphy's character, the

prince, and his servant Semi.

>> Now, Semi is interested in Lisa's

sister, Patricia.

>> Yeah,

>> he's he wants her. He He wants to pursue

her, but but she is not into him at all.

At all. Okay. She's not attracted to him

whatsoever.

But eventually as things progress, Semi

tells, you know, Patricia that that he's

actually a prince. He's lying. He's the

prince servant, but he tells her that

he's the prince. And there's a complete

shift in her in her attraction to him.

She's suddenly find him attract

attractive. He's, you know, now he's

he's the man and all that. And and my

point is in attraction even though you

have the initial

you know parameters of attraction you

find you have it has the right features

he looks good he looks like the boy on

the playground when you you know you're

a kid and all that but then there's a

cognitive social hierarchy component oh

this is a prince oh this is a you know

you know multi-billionaire oh this is a

this is a that and so there is that

>> there is that cognitive component in in

in prefrontal

>> processing in the prefrontal cortex

saying, "Oh my god, this is an

attractive person."

>> I think what you're also getting at with

a bigger pattern is when people fall in

love with the idea of somebody. Yes.

>> And this is something both genders fall

into the trap of this. It's like,

>> you know,

a guy may may tell himself he's in love

with a girl because she's good-look,

she's from a good family,

>> nice enough, you know, offers to help

out when you take her to other places,

which makes you look great,

>> has a great smile, you know, has a

pretty good job,

>> smart,

>> and you're kind of like going down the

checklist like, "Oh, this is all

awesome." And you tell yourself, you

know, sex might be great, but you tell

yourself, oh, I I love this girl.

>> Yes.

>> Because you're also thinking about,

>> well, what is my family going to think

of them? What are my friends going to

think of them? Or is this the kind of

person that like they're going to brag

to their friends and family about?

>> And then you get to a point where you

can't explain it, but you realize, wow,

why do I not feel like that spark? And

it's because you've been checking these

boxes. And like again, you also see the

same thing happen with women towards

men. They're like, "Oh, he's goodlook.

He has a good job. He's funny.

>> My dad likes him." Whatever. And then,

>> you know, they wonder why it's not

there. So

>> the hierarchy thing is more I guess the

question I'm looking for here is when

you're looking at like hierarchies or

checking a box with people is that more

of like

>> a trap in the brain to where you you

believe that the different functions of

the brain that require love are firing

only to later learn that they never were

at all? or do you actually get your

brain to fire in those ways to later

then kind of come back to earth and be

like, "Wait a minute, I never really

felt that way."

>> It's it's an interesting question. So,

there's something what you're talking

about is known as the halo effect. Exact

thing that you find like whatever you

see as as as

beautiful. You give them positive

traits. Oh, she's dependable. Oh, she's

nurturing. Oh, she's a potential good

wife potential. Oh, she's a good mother

as well potentially. So, you have all

this trick trickles down. Now the

question is then

how does it work? I think there's a

gender there's a gender spec specificity

to it. So it's gender specific and it's

also person specific. So let's start

with gender specificity first.

Females are more context dependent in

their in their love and attraction. So

men it's more much more visual. Oh, she

fits the category of she's beautiful,

she is attractive, she she has all these

features. She's probably nurturing and

she may show signs of also being

nurturing and and being highly um you

know she's be the short thing is we are

very visually driven much more than than

the conceptual parts of her being

nurturing and a good mother although we

take that into account as well. Okay.

>> Now on that note female on the other on

the other hand are are much more driven

by context. So there's the initial

attraction, but then the context comes

in. Is this guy good potential?

Can he make money? Is he does he have is

he driven? Is he ambitious? Does he have

social status? How does he fit in the

social hierarchy and attention

structure? So females have something

called the attention structure. So you,

for example, would be high in the

attention structure with all your, you

know, videos and all that people pay

attention to. But it it's actually one

of the things that females find very

attractive is because in nature we only

pay attention to important stuff. So

being high in the attention structure is

attractive. Does that make sense?