I've never heard a story like this in my

life. A story of drug trafficking,

bribery, kidnapping, and even murder,

which earned you the nickname of

America's dirtiest cop. And I want to

know everything. Okay, but let's just be

clear. If you choose to have a

conversation with me about this, you're

going to hear things that you won't

like.

Jesus. Let me just say this. Being a New

York cop was the greatest job in the

world. But it's not built for somebody

to come in and be the night and shining

armor. You're working minimal wage.

Civilians are against you and you're

directly told not to make drug arrests.

Why? Well, cuz they got a budget to

manage. And the average amount of

overtime for one crack arrest was 18

hours. So that leads to the streets

becoming unwieldy. So what happens is a

guy like me who's entrepreneur spirit

shows up and says, "There's a way to

control this. I can't arrest him." So I

tax them. And that escalated. Greed is

powerful, bro. But what happens then?

You become God. I was making more than

the president of the United States by

protecting one of the largest drug

trafficking organizations in New York.

But I was losing control and I became

the face of New York City's corruption

problem. People wanted me dead. And then

in 1992, you were arrested and you

admitted to hundreds of crimes. But what

about your family at this point? You

know, that was tough. They're really

special people.

Mike, we spoke to your parents. Do you

want to see what they said?

I'm Carol Dow and uh I'm Michael Dow's

[Music]

mother. This has always blown my mind a

little bit. 53% of you that listen to

the show regularly haven't yet

subscribed to the show. So, could I ask

you for a favor before we start? If you

like the show and you like what we do

here and you want to support us, the

free simple way that you can do just

that is by hitting the subscribe button.

And my commitment to you is if you do

that, then I'll do everything in my

power, me and my team, to make sure that

this show is better for you every single

week. We'll listen to your feedback.

We'll find the guests that you want me

to speak to, and we'll continue to do

what we do. Thank you so

much. Mike, when people do interviews

with you, they often describe you as New

York's dirtiest cop. No. And I watched

that over and over again in your

interviews. And I wondered as I watched

people calling you New York's dirtiest

cop how that makes you

feel. Not

good. Yeah. And that's a touchy subject

and and and and but I accept it and I've

turned it uh into something where I'm

able to m maybe chaperon an audience

because of it. But it's not nice to hear

that. More importantly, it's not nice

for your parents to hear something like

that. And thank God they're still alive.

But, you know, it's not the happy day

when your mother says sees your name on

the front page of the newspaper. I'll

tell you that. And for nothing good, you

know. And how many crimes did you commit

while you were a New York cop? So, it

may have been thousands because every

time I did something that was

inappropriate. So, you got to step back

for a second. Every time a police

officer puts on his badge and and swears

that oath and takes the job on, he's

basically taking a risk on everything he

does that can end him up in jail.

Everything. And that's really a very

difficult position to be in. Everything

you do legitimately can end you up being

sanctioned or arrested. So I would

suggest basically anything I did or any

interaction I did could have been

considered with some kind of criminal

intent. And still on the top line, just

painting the picture here, what are the

before we get into the detail, what are

the variety of crimes that you committed

as a New York police officer? So, every

time you take something from somebody,

money, cash, drugs, um, personal

property, let's say, it's basically a

robbery basically because you have a gun

on your hip and you're using a power, a

position of power. So, you would start

with robbery, extortion, burglary when

you went into someone's home and came

out with uh, a product. I mean, I've

taken tapes from, you know, back in the

day, you know, those VCR tapes, they

were there was a lot of good stuff in

some VCR tapes. I mean, we can get a

little humorous here, but the reality

was, you know, you know, some guy's porn

collection might be missing. I mean, it

just these are the these are the things

that you ran into their cash, their gold

coins, you know, there whatever was when

someone's dead, it's really hard for

them to complain about what's missing.

So, and you know, it's ironic, it's

stupid, and it's debauchery at the same

time. So you you cross all the you cross

all the lines of decorum when you do

something like that. Did you steal

someone's porn collection? Maybe.

Really? It could have been. But the guy

they were dead. They were dead. They

were dead. They couldn't use it anymore.

I mean they were smoking crack. Okay. So

I'm in the 94th precinct in Brooklyn now

which is Williamsburg where you say it

was a lovely place and it was it was

becoming lovely when we were they

started opening up some studios. We got

a call for dead on arrival. You know,

someone was murdered. So, we we show up

and the guy's sitting in his couch with

a knife in his side. I mean, you walk

into this home and there's a guy on his

couch like this, sitting there with a

hole in his side with the knife still in

it. He's bled

out. And the place looked like there was

a party that didn't stop. So, while

there, I'm sitting around waiting and

waiting for the boss to show up and the

squad to show up, the detective squad to

show up. And I'm looking around,

rumaging a little bit, see what see like

looking for the evidence of the of the

crime scene. And sure enough, I hit the

button on the VCR and there's a porn.

They've got the porn on [ __ ] TV. So

I'm saying, okay, there he's dead.

There's crack uh evidence of there was

no crack there, by the way. It was all

gone. No one leaves crack behind. The

cigarette smokes were p, you know, the

ashes were piled out of the out of the

ashtrays and there's beer bottles

everywhere. So it's July. It's 100

degrees and this apartment has no air

conditioning in it. So, what does any

self-respecting 20some year old man want

at this point? Not the porn per

se, but the beer, right? So, I'm looking

around, every beer bottle is empty, and

right below the apartment is a bodega

right below it. Like upstairs is the is

the dead guy and downstairs is a bodega.

So, we go downstairs and we tell the

guy, "Listen, we're going to be upstairs

for a couple hours." He hands us a

six-ack of Coors Light. You can't make

the story

up. We walk in, me and my partner Tom,

and in comes the detective. We each have

a beer. We're sitting at [ __ ]

waiting for the boss to show

up. Boss walks in. She looks around. She

goes, "I want every beer bottle in here

printed." She says, "And in the

refrigerator." Now, I just put the

[ __ ] six-pack in the refrigerator

when she walked

in. So, I'm going, "Now, picture this.

They know I'm corrupt, okay? But they

can't prove it. I'm on what you would

call secret probation, even though I'm

not on probation. They're watching me

like a hawk. Now, I got a detective

who's looking at me like, "We just had a

beer. The f our [ __ ] fingerprints are

inside the refrigerator and he's

scared." I'm not. I

mean, I'm going to take a hit, I guess.

Right. So, I go, "Sange?" She goes, she

goes,

"What?" "In that refrigerator, there's a

six-ack of Coors

Light and my fingerprints are on the

bottles in the in in the

refrigerator." She looks at me. She

goes, "Of course it's you." She goes,

"Of all the people in this [ __ ]

police department, it would be your

fingerprints inside the refrigerator on

a cause light bottle at a homicide

scene. And there's only four homicides

in this precinct this year, and you've

been on three of them. You've been at

the scene of three of So I go, "Yeah, it

doesn't look too good, does it?" So, she

goes, "I'm going to go

downstairs. I'm going to go to my car

and I'm going to make a phone call.

Whatever I got to do." I says, she said,

"Get rid of that and don't do it again."

Did you steal the porn collection? Yes.

It was already in the car. It was

already in the car. I already had it.

I mean, that's all he had. A knife in

his belly and a porn collection.

You didn't steal the knife? No, I

couldn't. There's evidence. But you put

his porn collection in your car. Yeah.

Wow. And you do originally trained to

become an accountant and drop out

because of a woman, right? And you

wanted to follow her. So you end up

joining the police academy in 1982, 21

years old, right? And when you joined

the police academy, did you do it

because you wanted to be a police

officer and because you wanted to serve

and defend? No, that's not why I joined.

I joined because I wanted a job. Because

you wanted a job. And so when you stood

there and took that oath, right? Did you

mean it? I you know, no. I mean, I guess

I guess so. So, so the answer to So, if

you say no, it mean that means that you

have no concern or care. So, it was an

immature yes.

So, you take that oath, you don't really

mean it.

And I I'm embarrassed if I say I I want

to be truthful because I don't I don't

like to lie. I I felt pride when I said

it. Is that So, I I felt full of pride

when I said it. And as part of your

training to become a police officer, you

do some integrity training. Yes. some

like ethics training to make sure that

police officers are like straight and

narrow and understand. So, one of the

things that I would suggest on that

statement or that that that whole uh

genre is it it wasn't necessarily we

weren't necessarily trained on integrity

or or ethics. We were trained on this is

what would happen to you

if don't take $5 from a motorist or $50

from a motorist because that will lead

to one you being arrested and being all

over the news and then all the cops are

going to hate you. Like it was never

really explained to you as a student in

the academy the depth of the lack of

integrity and what you're actually

affecting. Okay. like the fundamental

issue if we don't trust law enforcement

and the downstream consequences. Thanks

for saying it that way. Yes. Because it

it it destroys the very fabric of what

people trust in law enforcement because

when you need help, you got to call

somebody and the person that shows up

has to be trustworthy. Now, I would

argue because I robbed money from drug

dealers and even their drugs, you can

still trust me, right? That's what I

would argue because if you're not doing

those things essentially Mhm. you're

safe with me and I will give you the

best police service that you ever asked

for and probably go above and beyond to

help you. There was some kind of comment

made at the end of your training by an

internal affairs academy instructor

which basically said to be successful as

a cop, don't follow these rules, the

ethics rules that you were just given.

So yes, so that wasn't the internal

affairs officer that said that. That

would be your academy instructor. Okay.

Yeah. ironic. He said to me, "Us in the

academy class, if you live by the rules

that these

guys espouse in internal affairs, you'll

never make uh a successful cop. Just

cover your ass." That would be his that

was his words. Just cover your ass. What

What do they mean by that? Always have a

reason. Always have an excuse.

Basically, you Yeah, you hit it on the

head. Like, so bas and have if you have

a partner, be on the same page. So,

let's say something was handled

inappropriately. Maybe there was some

excessive force used, which I'm not fond

of and nor am I in favor of, but there

may be times where you might have given

a guy an extra elbow. It happens. You

know, you're mad, you spit in my face, I

put the cuffs on you, I give you a shot.

It h doesn't do you hit the door on the

way in sometimes. So, as long as your

partner and you have the story straight,

you can pretty much without these

cameras

today get away with most things that are

not unreasonable. And the police all

kind of agree that they won't snitch on

each other. That's general the general

rule. And it's called I read this term

the blue wall of silence. Yes. Right.

So, let's just be clear. The first

person that's going to snitch on you is

going to be a cop. Okay.

However, more chances than not, they try

not to. And that's just the facts.

Because what cop wants to go out on

patrol knowing that if something goes

down and it goes a little sideways from

where it's supposed to go, let's say you

and I were working together and you just

told on me last week and now someone's

pummeling you to death in the street. I

have a chance to help you or I can call

for backup and wait, you know. So, you

don't want that relationship with me,

right? I mean, we're trying to get home

tonight. Yeah. So, it really puts people

in a very precarious position because

you need those other cops for your own

personal survival. So, Correct. So, you

don't want to be snitching on other

cops.

Yeah. It's, you know, I mean, it's

really not built that position in this

society is not built for somebody to

come in and be the night and shining

armor and say, "Listen, Officer Dav,

that was not appropriate. I'm gonna have

to report you right now. Before he goes

to report me, I'm gonna either bludgeon

him to death because now he's taking my

livelihood away. He's taking the food

off the table of my family. You don't

look at it as like you're getting a guy

in trouble. You look at you're taking a

career, a livelihood, incarceration. I

mean, these are the things that can

happen. Like I said, the minute you put

that badge on, and I didn't get to this,

is the minute that the job and the is

looking to take something from

you. Like, think about that. Mechanic

goes to work and they say, "Can you get

six cars done today?" I'll try. You got

six and there's a bonus for you at the

end of the day. A cop goes to work and

they're looking to screw him the whole

time. Who's looking to screw him? The

department and the civilians. I didn't

like the way he handled me. They make a

complaint. Your boss goes, "I got the

people complaining. I'm going to have to

give you a [ __ ] assignment or I'm going

to have to change your assignment." I

mean, the whole time someone's against

you. They're trying to find some kind of

[ __ ] in your arm or something you did

wrong. Yeah. And it's really to cover

their ass. Back to the beginning. It's a

very, very difficult position. A fireman

goes to work, you know what they do?

They save lives. They put out fires.

They eat a good meal. They have a great

gym. No one's in there going They have

rules in decorum, but no one's going,

"We're looking to take you for this.

We're looking to stripe you for that."

The civilians aren't walking into a

firehouse and going, "I didn't like the

way that truck backed down and the siren

blasted and hurt my ears." They're

going, "Yay! They're going to save

someone's life. A cop shows up on the

scene. He's going to give me a ticket.

He's going to arrest my husband. My

husband beat me and he doesn't believe

me." I mean, it's just it's such a it's

such a grading position to be in. When

we when we're thinking about the

factors, the environmental factors that

led you to make the decisions that you

made, one of the big factors that I was

looking into at the time was there was

obviously this crack epidemic, but then

it also seemed like the police at the

time didn't actually want you to arrest

people. Yes, that's correct. I saw some

crazy stat which I'm sure you'll be able

to recount for me, but in the in the

sort of decade that you were a police

officer, you didn't do that many

arrests. No. How many? 43. You did what?

43 arrests. You did 43 arrests in how

many years? Well, I mean, total total 10

years, but yeah. So, not all of that was

patrolled, but yeah. So, it doesn't

matter. I mean, I can make 43 arrests in

a month. Okay. If I really wanted to. If

you weren't corrupt at that time, how

many arrests do you think you probably

should have made in those 10 years based

on the crimes that you observed?

500. Okay. So, about 90% of the things

you should have arrested someone for,

you didn't.

Okay. And why weren't you making more

arrests?

You couldn't keep the police on patrol

if they were making arrests. They were

clogging up the system. The system would

get so jammed up. The average amount of

overtime for one crack arrest was 18

hours. You would be paid for that. Paid

time and a half. Okay. So then the

department has to pay you more money if

you do an arrest and then process the

arrest and they all get processed

through the correction system and they

all get processed through the court

system. I mean, you're talking 150,000

arrests a year in in Brooklyn alone.

That's a lot of numbers if you just keep

cranking at it. And everybody's getting

18 hours overtime per arrest. And who's

paying for all these arrests at the end

of the day? Well, the city the city's

pay. So, the city don't want you to be

arresting people because they got a

budget to m manage. Were you ever

directly told to stop arresting people?

Yeah. How's this? You really didn't make

a dent on it and now there's two men off

patrol

and then your next assignment was the

desk. You're making arrests causing a

problem. Yeah. The city's paying for it.

There's less police available and the

robberies, the the murders and the rapes

in those communities were extremely

high. They rather have them sell crack

than people getting robbed and raped and

murdered. Does that make sense? Of

course it does. Yeah. So, it's all

incentives. I think if you look at any

system, you'll understand why people

behave they do if you understand the

incentive structure. And in your case,

if you made more arrests of criminals,

then the city would have both a bill

because they had to pay cops overtime to

take care of the admin work, but also

they're going to have more cops off the

street, which could also lead to more

crime. More crime. Yes. So, you were

incentivized not to arrest people.

Correct. Okay. So, that So, what does

that be? What does that lead to? That

leads to the streets becoming unwieldy.

You're like, there's no control. So,

what happens is a guy like me who's

entrepreneurial spirit shows up and says

there's a way to control this. I tax

these people or arrest them. One of the

two. And I can't arrest them. So, I tax

them. And let's talk about that first

experience of you taxing the first

person, which I think was

in 1983.

Your starting salary when you joined the

police was $18,000 a year roughly. Yes.

And you pulled someone over in 1983.

Yes. And that's the first time That's

the first time there was a tax levy.

That was the first time you you

committed a crime, I guess, as a police

officer. No, but the first time that I

committed an actual money crime, I would

say. Yeah. How old were you at that

point? In ' 83? 23. 24. Yeah. And that

was basically uh we called it a Puerto

Rican mystery back then. I know that I'm

famous for saying that and people are uh

listen that's that's what they called

it. All right. Because the guy was from

Puerto Rico and he had no paperwork, no

license or anything like that. And he

just bought the car. You pulled him

over. Pulled them over. No plates. No

plates. Right. You just came here from

Puerto Rico. You got a stack of hundreds

in your bag and I'm looking at him

saying, "You know, you got like $2,000

worth of tickets and I'm supposed to

take your car from you." I said, "But

you know, I like lobster. Leave me

enough money for a lobster lunch. this

whole thing can go

away. So, the kid was quick on his feet.

He left a couple hundred bucks under my

briefcase on the back seat. He got out

and I said, "I don't want to ever see

you again, you know, unless you got

unless you got some more lobster lunch

money later." Of course, I didn't say

that. And of course, I left that scene

with the money and I was very

uncomfortable because it was the first

time I actually solicited something like

that. But it was sort of a it's almost

like I won something. as a cop. One of

the things we saw in movies back then is

cops getting like sexual favors because

they're cops. Yeah. Did that happen? I

would say that was available and I've

took it advant some advantage of it. But

yeah, there was some.

Yeah. Yeah, there was some. I mean I

mean that that's like you know you're

driving by in a police car and a girl

says hello and you go you and you go

[ __ ] her. I mean you know that is that

is that a is that like a benefit of the

job or is that you know your

promiscuity?

Did you ever do that while working?

Yes. That's my biggest sin in the world.

While working in the car?

Yes.

Wow. Not just in movies. That's the

license of siren only went off once.

Really?

That was from a [ __ ] It wasn't from

Yeah. The girl's ass hit the [ __ ]

buzzer. I'm like the [ __ ] the big back.

3:00 in the morning. You hit the buzzer.

I'm in the back of a courtyard of a

ninestory building. Your boss, your

sergeant around that time, did he know

that you were doing things like this?

Not then. No. No. But shortly

thereafter, there would be a situation

where my sergeant uh it was a murder

scene. Dead kid, 20-year-old shot in the

head and it was a marijuana

spot. There's money, there's drugs, you

know. I mean, listen, it's overwhelming

when you'll come across these things

that there's a dead body there and

you're entrusted to handle all this

stuff and you're broke.

And so I took a little thin stack of

hundreds and put it in my pocket. Turned

out it was like 600 bucks. And as the

crime scene was being processed in walks

my sergeant, Sergeant James Otto, he

says, "Is this it?" Like two, three

pounds of marijuana, which is like this

much marijuana. It's not a [ __ ] big

pile of [ __ ] And uh I don't know, it

was like I don't know $1,500 in cash

stacked all over here. Is this it? I go,

"Yeah." I go, "But but I felt like he

was asking me too much." So, well, I did

have this and I take out a thin stack of

hundreds. And he goes, "Oh, anything

else?" I go, "No, that's it." I said,

"You know, I didn't want to take it full

of

blood." Later on that night, I run into

him at a at a a choir practice they

would call it. He went out bullshitting,

having a couple beers. I said, "Set let

me ask you a question. What if and I say

and I I come across money and he what if

I kept that 600?" He goes, "I was

annoyed that you gave it to me." Like

just picture the moment. You're 20some

years old. You're broke. You know,

you're coming to work. You know, you're

surviving. You're in survival mode.

You're out having a couple of beers with

your buddies and the your boss who's got

20 years on the job at this point. So,

he's actually could retire if he wanted

to. and he says to you, "If I don't see

it, it's yours." He says, "But let me

know so you can throw me something later

on." It was like the whole vision of

this thing changed at that

moment. He's basically saying, "If you

get there, it's

yours. Take what you can before I get

there because I don't want to witness it

because I don't want to have to witness

it." Was he taking money? Well, he

wouldn't. He'd say no, but clearly he

was indicating that it's good. just

don't let me see it. When you reflect on

that scene that you arrived at, you said

there was a 20-year-old man that was

dead. Yeah. Did Did seeing those scenes

ever bother you? Initially, my first my

first DOA was my first day. Guy jumped

off a building and landed on his

head. Uh that bothered me because the

family showed up. It was horrific. And I

got to hold the family back and don't

touch him because he could be a murder.

We don't know. We don't know why he's

dead. It's a crime scene

essentially. I began to see people shot,

stabbed. You have a total disconnect

like really quickly. The first shooting

I was at was doing a midnight shift and

and the guys were doing a burglary of a

car. They were stealing tires and tire

irons. And I said, "Hey, we should stop

these guys." And my buddy S's like,

"Nah." My partner, nah, let him go. It's

late. Someone flags us down. Hey, this

guy's trying to steal steal tires off a

car. So now I said, "Look, we got

civilians complaining about the same

people that we should have just

tossed." Turn around, go back about two

or three blocks. Guy's dead in the

street and I see a tire iron. So I said

to the people, "Was there were they

carrying a jack or a tire iron?" And

they go, "Yeah." And they point over to

the street where the the tire iron was

for taking the wheels off off a car.

this guy could have shot us, you know,

like so like like he's dead. It could

have been us or if we did toss this guy,

he could not be dead. So when you come

that close to death

itself, your your survival instincts

give you an ability to disconnect fairly

quickly from those types of scenes. Did

you ever show up to a scene where you

saw someone dead or dying and feel sad?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. A couple times. But more

important, one one one that strikes me a

lot. I was I was talking to the guy who

was going out. I know he's going to die.

You know, it was just uh he was stabbed

in the stomach and uh he's looking at me

and he goes, "I'm getting cold." I go,

"Yeah, it's going to be

okay." He says, "I'm getting cold

officer." I sat out. Are you going to be

okay? We're going to get you to the

hospital. You know, the ambulance showed

up like five minutes later and he was

barely conscious when he got in the

ambulance and he wasn't going to make it

and he he died. And it was sad because I

couldn't do anything for him. I'm like,

you saw a lot of stuff. Why did that

affect you?

I felt bad because I was talking to him

knowing he's going to die.

Like, and one other time I felt really

bad. Uh some guy who was I guess he was

he was getting laid. young guy, big,

heavy set, strong, powerful black guy.

He's his wife is like I looked at her,

she goes, I'm like, I knew I could tell

it was a sexual thing. They had sex and

the [ __ ] guy was like 35 years old

and he he was either dead or dying. He

had a heart

attack and uh I wanted to give him

CPR, but it would have been my first

actual CPR case, you know, and the two

cops I was working with go, "No, don't

worry about it. Go get the ambulance.

Don't worry about it." Yeah. Yeah. He's

going to be okay. Don't worry about it.

Go get the

ambulance. I'm like, "Shouldn't we do

CPR?" "No, no, no. You go

outside." I was the kid. I was the

rookie and these two oldtimes were like,

"Don't worry about it. It's going to be

all right. Go outside and and direct the

ambulance in." Like two minutes later,

the ambulance showed up. They started

CPR on the guy and he died. To not

render aid when you think you can make a

difference, that hurts. Why did they

tell you not to render aid, Tim? I I

don't know. I don't know why. They

didn't tell me why, you know, and it was

very disheartening because I think I

could have helped save the guy, but what

am I going to do? Wrestle with these

guys? And, you know, they got go get the

they're in charge. Senior cop on the

scene is in charge. At some point you

started actually dealing drugs. Yeah.

How did you start getting into drugs?

When did when was that Eureka moment

that you realized that you could sell

drugs? My partner at the time took some

home out of the blue and uh he came back

and handed me a couple hundred dollars

one day. I said, "What's that for?" He

goes, "That [ __ ] we've been throwing out

is cocaine. We ain't throwing it out no

more. I got somebody that wants it." So

he's bringing me cash. I was like,

"Okay, well, this ain't that bad." I

mean, for me, it was like, I didn't see

it. I didn't do it, so I was okay with

it. And then it becomes like anything

else, it softens the blow for the next

step. And eventually, I would lead to me

just whatever dope I found, I would take

and and if I couldn't find it, I' I'd

see one of the drug dealers and say,

"Give me something or or or give me

something for discount." I mean, that

that's it becomes you become a a market

maker at that point. Did you stop buying

it to sell it from these drug dealers?

At some points I started buying it.

Yeah. How bad did it get with the drug

dealing when you were a cop? Because it

almost sounds like you've at this point

given up being a cop enforcing the law.

So here's it's a dichotomy, right?

Because I put the uniform on. I go to

work and if you are not in the drug

business, you're going to get a good

police

officer in my from my perspective. You

may never say that. You may never agree

with it. But if you were had a car

accident and you needed a police officer

to take the report, bring you to a

hospital. I would do all the

arrangements, do whatever best I could.

If you had gotten robbed, I would do the

report. I'd take you to a hospital if

you were injured, you know, whatever it

need. I I mean, I responded like a

proper police officer. But if you were

in the drug business, you were

mine. You were

mine. Simple. I mean, how else can I say

it? What do you mean by you were mine?

You were mine. I owned you. In what

regard? In every regard. Whatever I

wanted. You were mine. You could take

their drugs. Whatever I wanted. Your car

if I wanted it. Did you ever take

someone's car? I didn't have to. A guy

gave me one.

What else? Whatever. Coats, jackets,

gold, whatever. Chains. What was your

biggest heist as a police officer? I

would They weren't that large. I'd say

40 to 50,000 one at one time. which back

then was good money. You know, you're

talking about two years salary, you

know. Yeah. If you're on a like 20

$30,000, whatever is your salary,

getting 40,000 is Yeah. I doubled my

salary. Triple my salary. Yeah. That

year. Things like that come along, you

know? So, so there was opportunities.

So, you would call that a score, right?

Opposed to an ongoing thing. Mh. Because

like boom, it's there. It's it's a one

hit and wonder and it's over. Every job

in East New York, nine out of 10 was

involved with drugs. You're exposed to

it. It's your choice on how you deal

with it. You're the boss. You are the

boss. You show up, you're the boss. Were

your colleagues around you doing the

same? The accurate answer is some

were this. The best description is you

would never know. You would never know.

I might because I know what's going on.

But if you were a cop that was not

involved, you would never know. So the

good cops wouldn't know that it was

happening. You wouldn't know because I'm

not going to tell you. Now, if you

happen to say something to me that you,

hey, wait a minute, something went down

there, I'd say, and what do you want to

do about

it? You want in? I'll tell you a funny

story. Ready? We go to the scene. I

don't want to describe it because it's

lengthy. Long story short, the cops show

up. We're the cops. But the cops show up

behind us and they go, "Oh, that's Dow

and his partner. Leave them alone." And

they turn around and they walk away. So

the officers knew just just I don't want

to see what they're doing because

they're not I'm culpable or responsible

for what they're doing. And that's how

it became. And what were you doing at

that scene?

Cocaine and heroin. My partner wanted

the guns. I said, "What are you going to

do with the guns? This money. This This

is money. That's a gun." And and and

people were in debt. So the guns may be

connected to the crime. So just when you

show up at a scene like that, how do you

and you arrive there and there's guns,

there's money, there's drugs. How do you

get the money and the drugs without

other officers seeing you? That's funny.

Like how'd you get it out? Do you put it

in the back of the police car? So one

time I put it in a laundry bag, which

was loaded up with heroin and cocaine

and I don't know whatever else was in

there. And I happened to be lucky. There

was a a row of garbage pales along this

person's entrance way. As the sergeant

was walking up the stairway to

investigate the scene with us to to

secure it and make sure everyone's doing

what they're supposed to do. I take this

bag and I go like this and I put it in

the garbage pail. He comes up to me. I

go, "SGE, there's a guy dead in the

doorway. They shot him through the

through the eyehole." I said, "There's

another guy shot upstairs and there's a

bunch of guns and stuff up there." I go,

"But there's so many cops here. I'm

going to go 98." which means I'm going

to go back on patrol. He goes, "Good."

Like, "Good

idea." I'm like, "Good. We agree." So

that gets me away from the scene. So now

he goes up the stairs. I go back into

the garbage pail, pick up the the green

laundry bag, and put it in my car, and I

leave. So now I got to go to a drug

dealer, get rid of it, and then you get

loads of cash eventually. Yes. And what

do you do with the cash? In that

specific case, I drove right to my my

drug dealing friend's place who had an

auto body auto sound city. They put the

sound into into cars. I went right to

his shop. I dropped off some dope with

him and he called his buddy that sold

the heroin in the area and so on and so

forth and that recycles back into money.

Were you ever scared?

No. No. Should you have been? I I should

have been more cautious. Did you ever

think you were going to get caught?

You know, it was in the back of my mind

for probably five years. Just never

left. And thus, thus you constantly are

um your anxiety levels up. You know,

your body starts to go numb. Uh and you

wonder what's wrong with me? What's

wrong with you? You're living like three

different lives. You know, you have a

wife, you have a girlfriend, you have

drugs, you you're a cop, you're selling

drugs, you're shaking people

down. Everything's just fine. No, it's

not it's never good. You have a wife and

a girlfriend? Yeah, most most of the

time. And you have kids at that time?

One.

And did anybody know what you were doing

at home? I would leave that up to her.

But the mink coats and the new cars and

the trips to around the world, you don't

do them on a cop salary. But you never

said it. She knew enough.

And did she ever give you advice about

what you were doing? Stop. That's what

she said. Stop. I don't need this. I'd

rather have you. Imagine that.

That's a nice feeling in a way, right?

I'd rather you sleep under a bridge.

That's what she said. Yeah. Your

ex-wife. Yeah. And why didn't you stop?

Can't you can't you can't you can't stop

that. It's not that easy to stop that. I

I read the story that someone a

lieutenant had put a complaint against

you for a trivial matter and you

retaliated by reporting them uh to

internal affairs for being in a drug

house and then this sort of led to a

situation where you received death

threats over the phone from that

lieutenant. Yeah. I'm working in Coney

Island. I was sent to Coney Island to

get away from East New York because they

knew I was hot. I mean, the story is so

big and deep, it's just crazy. His

bottom line with him was I end up in a

dispute with him somehow. He's a cop.

Cop. Yeah. He had a Mercedes-Benz 3 380

or something. Mercedes-Benz, whatever it

was. His license plate on the back of

his car said B

Scott. Less than a month later, about

three weeks later, I'm out in Long

Island and there's the car. There's only

one B Scott, right? In New York plate.

And I pulled over and I said to my wife

at the time, I said, "Get a good look at

this guy." And he went up into a crack

house. It was only one crack house in

the in the whole neighborhood. And that

was it. He went up into it and then he

came out. I said, "Well, I left. I went

home and I spoke to my neighbor who was

my wife's uncle who was a detective in

the 102 squad with 28 years on the job

at the time." I said, "Listen, I want to

talk to you." He goes, "What's up?" I

told him the story, the scenario. And he

goes, "Listen, Mike. anything but drugs,

you got to turn them in. It was hard for

me to do this because now I'm turning on

a guy that I know was involved in drugs

and I know what I had done previously.

So I call internal. They were at my

house in 45 minutes. Like hello. I mean

my house. I live 45 minutes from them.

They're at my house in 45 minutes. They

do an interview with me. Long story

short, they put a line up in front of

me. I picked the guy out. So later on,

within a week or so, I'm getting phone

calls to my house at 2:30 in the

morning. But it's every day. It's going

on every day for about a month's length

of time. So finally, I go, "What do you

want, bro? Enough is enough. I'm [ __ ]

your wife. Every time you go to work,

I'm [ __ ] her." Oh. Oh, really? Yeah.

She gets off the train in Long Island

Railroad and I pick her up. I bring her

home and I [ __ ] her. Oh, okay. Thank you

very much. I said, "Well, why don't you

come by?" And we'll straighten it out

right here, you and me. He goes, "Why

did I put a bullet in your [ __ ] head

while you're standing there in front of

the window?"

So, he could see you? I don't know. Did

you plot to kill him? No. Why would I

plot to kill this guy? Well, because it

sounds like he wants to kill you. Well,

that's different now. But I But I did

but I didn't cuz I didn't know who it

was. It took me years to figure out who

it was. But in the interim, I ran into

him again. I essentially arrested him

without arresting him. I gave him

summones, which is an arrest in a way.

And he was so pissed off. He made a

complaint against me. And you know, but

he was suspended.

Oh, so he was a civilian when you arrest

when you He was suspended. He was

officer on suspension. Okay. And he was

suspended for being the gun in a drug

case in Harlem. He was the collector in

Harlem for a drug organization. It turns

out what's a collector? He was the

strong man. So if you owed money to a

drug organization, he went out and

collected it. Oh, okay. So he was he was

an off he was a police officer who had a

job collecting money for a drug

organization in Harlem. You met a guy

called Baron Perez. Yes. Who's Baron

Perez? Baron Perez is the guy who owns

Auto Sound City at the time. He was what

you call a middleman in any deal in

Brooklyn. So he ran a car shop which was

a front for a cocaine. He was not a

front. He had been a legitimate

business. But in his business would be

all the dealers in Brooklyn would come

in. And did you is that where you met

Laac Compenia? Yes. What is LaMenia? La

company was a Dominican drug

organization that

ran small nickel and dime spots

throughout the city. Lots of them. Like

dozens of them. And they were basically

based out of bodeas. And you were a cop

at the time when you met them? Yes. And

they're one of the most powerful drug

organizations in New York City at the

time. At the time. Yes. But they were

street level mostly. They had their own

they had their own organizational

structure, but they they dealt with all

the street level bodeas. And at the time

you're getting paid $600 a week as a

cop. No, every two weeks. Every two

weeks as a cop. So you're making $300 a

week as a cop, right? And this drug gang

offer you how much money to protect?

didn't offer me anything. I told them if

they want the protection, it was 8,000 a

week. And what did they say when you

said that? We'll pay it. So, they paid

you $8,000 a week, the drug gang, for

the first week, and then they were

shorted me $700. What does shorted mean?

Short. They they were short 700. Okay.

So, they paid me $7,300 instead of

$8,000.

So, I told them, I need the rest of the

money. The deal is a deal. And they

said, you know, we're not paying you.

We're done. So then I threatened them

and I shut their business

down. I parked police cars in front of

their business for a week and they put a

hit on me. What does it mean when

someone puts a hit on you as a police

officer? What does that mean? They

suggest to anybody that is willing to

shoot and kill this cop. Uh they'll pay

them. And how do you find out they that

this drug gang has put a hit on you?

Well, because Baron Perez knows

everybody in the city in the drug

business because he does their cars. He

said there's a hit on you. He said, "By

the company." I said,

"Okay." I went out that same day. I saw

his car. I never met the guy in my life,

but I knew his car. The company, the

boss. I pulled him over. He didn't know

who I was. I told him my license

registration. I just threw the papers

back in his lap. I said, "You going to

put a hit on me?" He turned as wide as

that pen because now I'm standing over

him and he's sitting down a little tiny

Renault looking up at me. I said, "If

you want to put a hit on me, why don't

we we'll clear it up right here. I'll

let you get out of the car. We'll do 10

pace walk off. You turn around, I'll

turn around and we'll shoot it out." Did

you mean that? I meant it. Every word of

it. You don't say something you don't

mean when you talk about guns and

weapons. What if he said yes? It was on.

I wasn't going to not I was going to not

let him. Were you not scared? I I I was

crazy. I don't know. It I didn't think

of fear. I always thought I was I was

going to win. What did he say? No, no,

no, no. Oh, I said well you take the hit

off. My pager went off 20 minutes later

and he said the hit's off. I don't want

to do any more business with you. There

was a $700. Please leave us alone. So

you got your $700 in the end. Yeah. And

that was the end of your relationship

with with them with Laminia. Correct. Um

at some point after that you met a guy

called Adam Diaz. Correct. Who is a much

bigger Dominican drug dealer. Correct.

Adam was you know two three levels above

them. You know he was like the guy that

gets the 1500 kilos and distributes it

out. And he's making a million dollars a

week and he's selling what$50 million a

year in cocaine. Correct. Yeah. How did

you come to meet him and what was the

arrangement? So Baron the same way I met

the company through that car shop. Yes.

Correct. Then we had a nice sit down.

Him and I. We had a discussion. I said

if you want to talk to me, you bring

$24,000 in cash. I don't know why I

didn't say 25.

So he agrees he wants to talk to you.

Yeah. And what does he say? He agrees to

the meeting. We sit down and I I explain

to him what I can do. Uh, what can you

do? Nothing really, but I make it up.

What did you say? I said, "I can surveil

your your buildings and and your

locations and uh if I know of any

impending raids, I could give you a

heads up." I said, "But one thing I did

say to him, and I'll say it to the

camera, if anybody gets hurt, I'm giving

myself and you up." I said, "Because

that's not what this is about." We

agreed to with the terms. I'll do what I

can for you. I said, "I can't promise

you anything, but I will do what I will

do for you is the best that I can." So,

I mean, Diaz started paying me 8,000 a

week. Listen, I'm now making 8,000 a

week splitting it with my partner who

didn't deserve any of it, but whatever.

And

uh, you know, it was more than the

president of the United States at the

time. I mean, the the like that's a

pretty powerful feeling for a civil

servant cop. So, you couldn't really do

anything for him? Very little. You could

do very little for him, but you promised

him a lot. Yes. And he and I and I

actually performed for him. So, he he

originally paid you $24,000 for the

conversation. just for the conversation.

Correct. And then he paid you $8,000 a

week. Yes. Wow. And there was a

particular time where you did actually

save him some money more than once. Yes.

I probably was involved with him at this

point for about three or four weeks. I

was able to pick off a pending raid that

I didn't know they were going into his

store, but I knew there was a raid going

to happen. So I walked into the store,

picked up two Heinekens, walked up to

the counter, opened up the Heinekens,

and told the guy behind I didn't know

the guy behind the counter. I go, "Shut

it down." I shut it down. He looks at

me. I go, "Shut it down." He don't know

me. I don't know him, but he knows. I

walked outside and I say within an hour

and a half, they were hit with a team of

30, 40 narcotics

detectives, and I don't think they found

a gram assault in the place. And there

was another occasion where you saved

Adam Diaz. Well, that's when they got

the the the robbery with uh with Ko and

uh Franklin So Franklin and Ko were the

local bandits. They robbed all the drug

dealers because they were just straight

up killers. They didn't care. And they

went to his spot and they're not going

to kill you if they don't have to if you

give up the [ __ ] So the kid walked him

upstairs, uh Elvis was his name, walked

him upstairs to the apartment with all

the drugs and all the money in it. And

they gave as much as they could up and

someone called

911 and I hit mark one right down there

and I pulled that was the first car on

the scene. I jumped out and Elvis goes,

"Is Elvis is telling me? Yeah, they just

robbed us." So I I shut it down. We're

on the scene. No further. I think it's a

90 x-ray, which means it's unfounded. So

that would stop the police approaching

the location. Basically, I have the

scene closed down. There's a guy

upstairs. The cops are upstairs taking

[ __ ] out like cash and drugs. The

thieves couldn't get it all. There was

just too much. I What are you guys

doing? This is crazy how this happens.

They go, we found I go, "Listen, do you

have a do you have a search warrant to

go in that house?" the young cop and I'm

seeing your guy at the scene. They go,

"No." I go, "So what are you doing? You

can't just go in there and take the [ __ ]

out." Technically, you can't, but you

can because it's an exigent

circumstance. You're allowed. So, they

got bags of cocaine and money. So, I got

the cops to put the cocaine and the

money back in the [ __ ] house. Don't

ask me how, but they did it. A quick

word about our sponsor, LinkedIn. Money

and time are two of the most valuable

resources in business, as you'll know,

and when used in the right way, they

create monumental shifts. But when

mismanaged, they hold you back. And this

is especially true when it comes to B2B

marketing. If your team is spending time

and money trying to reach your target

audience without any clear plan on how

to actually guarantee this, well, I can

guarantee you're probably stumbling

around in the dark. With LinkedIn ads,

you can kill the guesswork and

specifically target buyers by job title,

industry, seniority, skill, even company

revenue. With a network of over a

billion professionals, you'll find the

decision makers, industry leaders, and

executives who actually have the power

to buy. So, if you want to get your

business in front of your target

audience, visit

linkedin.com/diary. And if you do that,

you'll get a $100 credit just for being

part of the Diary of SEO community.

Claim yours right now at

linkedin.com/diary. Terms and conditions

apply. One of your friends when you were

a cop was called officer Venibal and he

was shot in the head by associates at La

Compania. Um, and you were the first cop

to arrive on the scene of Officer

Venable who later died in the hospital.

Correct. And you said that you had a lot

of guilt over it. Yes. Well, because

it's just the whole thing. I was

involved in drugs in East New York and I

was involved in protecting drug

organizations and now a cop that that I

didn't know was killed. And uh that

doesn't matter. They didn't know him

because he's a cop. You know, that's you

know, it's not acceptable. Uh it just

the fact that a cop was killed is not

acceptable. And now the guilt that I

lived with was that I was protecting

people that may have either dealt with

those people or been associated with

those people. He killed a cop, but they

killed a cop. And that's, you know, it

everything's What does Tyson say?

Everything's it's all good until someone

punches you in the [ __ ] nose. Well,

that's like getting punched in the nose.

Like like what am I really

doing? It was hard to swallow. I mean,

and I don't I don't think I don't think

it there's no excuse. What's What's the

answer to that? It's not behavior that

or

it's first of all, in East New York, the

cops are the greatest in the [ __ ]

world. Okay? They dealt with the worst

scenarios that mankind can present.

And at that point, no cop had ever been

killed in East New York. Someone had

been shot, someone had been injured, but

no onduty police officer had been killed

ever in East New York to that day. It's

almost like I was connected to it. And

uh so it was tough. It was tough on me

as a human being, never mind as a cop

that was doing wrong. I mean, we allowed

them to stay in

business even though there was little

you could do. The fact that you knew

what they were doing and the fact that

you parttook in some of the spoils of

it, you feel that you're directly

connected and responsible. When you say

you feel

bad,

what how did that manifest like

literally and specifically? Well, I

would say that that's when I really took

that turn into drugs and alcohol more

deeply. And that's when I ended up

probably three three to six months later

I ended up in a rehab. About six months

later I ended up in rehab. Were you

depressed?

What a cop does, what I did was I would

go in my bathroom, close the door, and

read the paper and

cry. Now, I don't deserve any sympathy

for that. It's just it was my way of

letting go of all the guilt I was living

with throughout uh my career as a cop.

You you go in your bathroom, read the

newspaper, and cry. Yeah. Yeah, just

because it was like a it was a way to

release all the builtup I don't know

what the proper word is for this at this

point. Stress, anxiety, guilt.

Um because I was I knew my internal

strife about what I was doing was wrong.

I was not able to publicly grieve. Who

am I? I'm really feeling bad right now.

What do I do? Um you know, I I robbed

drug dealers and I sold some cocaine and

now there's a cop dead as a result of

cocaine.

Who do I tell that to?

It's my own prison.

At this time, you were on drugs as well.

You were taking alcohol and drugs at

this point. Yeah. Also, you were losing

your marriage,

correct? I So, I want to be accurate on

the reason I went. Even in spite of

losing my marriage and my kids and my

house, it wasn't the driving force. The

driving force was I was going to lose my

job. That was the driving

force. At this point, I didn't want to

lose the job. I'd rather leave the job

on my own terms than lose the job. Who

did you become? I became the direct

result of poor decisions and the

environment that I was in, which I could

see looking back at the time. I became

whatever was in the environment. I

became part of the environment. I I I

was no different than the people that

were selling crack cocaine or robbing

people robbing drug dealers because they

all did each other that way. So, a lot

of people say, "Well, that's the

environment they grew up in." You know

what? I can see that. So, I can relate

to that. You know, it doesn't excuse the

behavior. We all know that. There's no

excuse for the behavior. But I became

the environment I was living in. If I'd

asked your wife at the time, what's Mike

like as a as a human? What would she

have said to me at that point when she

probably would have said he's a lost

soul and an

[ __ ] I wasn't a nice You become you

become God. Like you get the God

complex. Like you feel

indestructible, but you but you see

yourself declining. Like it's the

weirdest thing in the world. You know

you're going down a rabbit

hole, but the whole time you have this

false armor on. What's the rabbit hole

you were going down?

Drugs, alcohol, women, violence. You

know, vi violence is coming. You know, I

mean, you're become you you're turning

into a violent potential killing

machine. I was going to become the exact

thing that you would have said you don't

belong in the street ever in your life

again.

And you went to rehab. And when you're

coming out of rehab, your intent is to

straighten up your life. When I came

home, you know, it was it was it was an

eye openener

because I thought, great, I'm going to

get a fresh

start. It turned out that when you

become a straight lace guy, when you've

been known to be

corrupt, the process of getting to

become a police officer in full respect

is very, very difficult. maybe never h

it may never happen. So in my case,

because I tried to do the right thing

and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to

to shift responsibility because it's

always your own responsibility because I

was trying to do the right thing. Cops

got nervous because this isn't the guy

we heard about. So that means he's here

to set us up. So when you came back from

rehab, they thought you were working as

an informant. Correct. Yes. Very well

played. Yes. That's what they thought

that I was now working for the man. And

I was here there to get them. And what

did that mean in terms of how they

treated you? So they would be they would

shun me, not want to work with me, not

want to partner with me, not want to

back me up, not invite me to any social

gatherings. So I was basically an

outcast now. I went from being the guy

that ran [ __ ] to an outcast. And what

did that mean for you as a cop? Well, it

meant that you isolated. Yeah. And that

you had no camaraderie. you didn't have

the the reason that you enjoyed being a

cops because you had brotherhood,

camaraderie, safety, protection, like

any organization that you belong to, you

know, and I basically didn't have that

any anymore. And um that affected me in

my decision-m going forward from there.

So, I just couldn't stay stopped. It's

like being an alcoholic. You can stop,

but you got to stay stopped. You were

How long were you in rehab for? Two

years. You were in rehab for two years.

Yeah. not locked away in rehab, but on

what they call modified assignment for

two years. Okay. And you you tried to

resign slashret retire from the police

on disability at one point. Well, I was

hoping that they would offer it, right?

Yeah. Messages were being dropped. This

guy's no good and he's they're going to

arrest him soon if if if he continues

on. You know, the words to me were,

"You're going out one way or the other,

and it's not through disability. You're

either getting arrested or fired."

Someone looking at the story would

probably go, "Why didn't you, if you

knew that they were on to you? If you

knew that they were investigating you,

following you for months and months and

months, why didn't you just stop?" You

know, when the kid goes into the barn

and there's a pile of hay and [ __ ] and

manure and someone tells him there's a

diamond ring in the middle of that pile

of [ __ ] and the kid gets a shovel and he

starts shoveling looking for that

diamond ring. That's how I That's who I

am. I'm that guy looking for that little

diamond in that pile of [ __ ] I'm an

optimist. You thought it'd all be okay.

Listen, I was in prison for well, I was

sentenced to 14 years, which by the way

was a pretty fair sentence overall, I

guess. And

uh every day in prison, I thought the

next day I might go home. And I did that

for 12 and a half years. Like that's how

that's how powerful the mind is. I was

born in '92. And in '92, that's quite a

significant year for you because this is

the year you were arrested, correct?

Yeah. What happened that day? Take me

into that day when you were arrested by

the police department. So, it's 92, the

day after Rodney King riots, May 4th,

May 5th. I had just made a deal with

Kenny Urel, my ex-artner, who was in a

cocaine business with him, his wife, and

his friends at the bowling alley. Kenny

Urel kept calling me up for for drugs

because the price had doubled. and he

knew that if anyone could get it, I

could. And I did. So, I got him a couple

packages of cocaine, let's say three or

four. In the meantime, his phones were

tapped because he was the target of an

investigation on Long Island. The

following day, I'm driving around and my

our radio's extremely quiet. No one's c

94's quiet anyway, the Williamsburg

area, but really quiet for the last two,

three days. And I'm getting a little

suspicious. I just pick drop a package

off with Kenny. I pull up to the station

house and I see a car there that looks

strange and I see two guys in the front

seat. I walk into the station house, my

partner, and I the desk officer, he

points, he says, "The captain wants to

see you." In walks these two guys that

were in the car that were out in front

of the precinct with their badges out,

"Lieutenant so and so, internal affairs.

We're taking you for a drug

test." And sure enough, uh, went

downstairs, got changed. I couldn't even

get changed. I couldn't get my clothes

off. They were so close to me. I

couldn't bend my knee. It was like right

up my ass. I'm like, "Excuse me, guys."

I said, "Am I under arrest?" They go,

"No, no, no. Are you sure? Because

you're awfully close here." Anyway, they

put me in the car. I get in the back of

the car. I said, "I got to smoke." I got

cocaine in my pocket now because it's in

my clothes. I got I couldn't take it out

and leave it in my locker with them

standing there. I go, "You guys, can you

open a window?" I'm smoking a cigarette

like I'm chain smoking. Yeah, it's okay.

We'll be all right. Are you sure you

guys going to choke out? No, no, don't

worry about it. I'm trying to get the

cocaine. Throw it out the window.

Anyway, they pull up to one leftrack

city and there's probably 60 cops,

sergeants, lieutenants, captains,

inspectors, all of them lined up with

their brass on all in uniform. Like,

what the [ __ ] is this for a drug test?

Little strange. I get out of the car. I

go, I can just I can't dump it here.

They're here. They're they're I can't

even dump the coke. So, I get upstairs

to uh 16th floor and there's the

lieutenant who's been waiting for me for

years. He goes, "Dow, how are I go,

"Good, sir. How are you?" He goes,

"Good." He hands me the cup to go take a

piss. I hit just on a bump and and a

[ __ ] and a vodka. So, I knew I was

hit. I turn around and walks my mother's

cousin from Suffach County Police

Department says, "Uh, Mr. Dow, you're

under arrest for conspiracy to

distribute narcotics." So, did you think

you were going to jail for the rest of

your life at that point? I didn't think

I didn't even think a week. I didn't

think a day. I think I'm going to make

bail. I'm going to beat the charge.

That's how I'm thinking. How did it feel

when you got arrested?

It was the biggest moment of relief. You

know, you asked about u life changing,

you know,

um lowest points. This was the best

feeling in the world. Almost like almost

like I was like, "Finally, it's over.

It's finally over. I can go on with my

life somehow." I didn't know it would

take almost 15 years. Well, even more

when you think about probation and a lot

of other [ __ ] You were

relieved. When I was going to work every

day, I was going to work with anxiety

and

fear. I no longer had to have that fear.

It was gone. Of course, I didn't know

what I would be facing. I figured this

will work out. Like, that's how I

thought. You know, when you say you're

going to work with anxiety and fear

earlier on, you said you weren't scared

of being arrested. I wasn't scared of

being arrested. I was afraid of ruining

my life, okay? And living a double life,

you know, I'm lying to my wife. I'm

lying to my family. I'm lying to the

department. I'm lying to myself. I'm

lying to my young child, two children at

this point. You know, everything's a

lie. So, this anxiety and fear in that,

the fear of arrest really never entered

my mind. It's funny when you describe

being arrested and you you reference it

almost like it was your moment of

freedom.

I still do today. Yeah, it was the best

thing that ever happened to

me. If I could capsulize, put that in a

bottle, the peace I had at that moment,

I could probably live in that peace my

entire life and wish for that peace. The

peace that comes over you when that

pressure comes off your life because I

no longer have to live a lie. Obviously,

most people can't relate um because

they've never been in such a situation

where they've been like arrested. Um,

but I think to some degree people can

relate with the feeling of living a life

that's like inauthentic to them and then

something happening which forces them to

course correct. Yeah. I mean some people

kill themselves. Other people overcome

it and become the better version of

themselves. Either they

make lemonade out of the lemons or they

go on to become ruinous. So, and I told

you I'm looking for that diamond in that

pile of [ __ ] So to me it was freedom.

How old's your child now? Your son? I

have two. My oldest son is uh he'll be

turning 40 and uh my younger son is

33 or four. So what advice based on your

experience in that moment would you give

to your kids about living an authentic

life and lying?

So it's and you'll know this from life

itself. It's easier to tell the truth in

the end than it is to lie because you

have to remember the lies every day and

live with the pressure of being

uncovered. So accept the hard knocks

that come along with living honestly and

um you'll you'll turn out to be a better

better person. So so part of my lesson

is if you don't have any bumps in the

road of

life, you really don't know that much

about life, right? You don't have you

have to learn how to overcome adversity.

So go ahead, live a good life. Do the

best you can. And if there comes a point

where you want to, let's say, experiment

with something or or take risks, just

accept the

consequences. If you're going to stick

up a bank, there's going to be

consequences maybe. And if there isn't

any consequences, it's going to haunt

you. There will eventually be a

consequence. There's always a

consequence. Everything has a cost. I

think about that just in day-to-day

interactions that it's like it's easier

to have the difficult conversation now

versus avoiding it and then it becomes

an even more difficult. Yeah, you're

logical. People that live in fear of

consequences, they don't think of that.

They think of the immediate

consequences. Immediate gratification.

Guy wants to get high because he wants

to feel this now. But he doesn't realize

that later on that cost the consequence

to that job, career, freedom, future,

you know, relationships, all the damage

that one incident can cause. But if you

own up to something immediately and

accept the responsibility for people

have a choice then you know who I am.

You can either interact with me or not.

But I don't have to have a false front

on when I speak with you or interact

with you. That must be quite a challenge

still for you to today because you know

you now go on podcast you interview talk

about what happened in your life and you

there's a lot of things that you did

that are hard to say but you're also

battling with this new reality of being

honest right about everything. Yes. So,

it's not hard for me to say anymore

because if you choose to have a

conversation with me about those things,

you're going to hear things that you may

or may not like, but you chose to be in

this conversation. You, your audience,

people that, listen, there's a lot of

people that hate me out there. But I

know this for a fact. I have people

today reaching out to me that have

attempted suicide 10, 15 times. Cops

that have had the gun in their mouth and

then their son walked in the room and

then I spoke to them the next day. I

mean, if I can go down a list of them.

So, you never know

what being honest and fully disclosing

the the tragedy of life or the

experiences of life can do for the next

person. And so, that's really where I'm

so happy that I've been able to do that.

I have a purpose and it it keeps me

connected. You know, look, once you're a

cop, you're sort of always a cop in a

way. I mean, there's going to be cops.

He's never a cop. He's a bad guy. Well,

you know what? [ __ ] you. You eventually

get released on bail after that first

arrest, which I think comes to a lot of

people's surprise because I think some

people told thought that you were going

to be in prison for the rest of your

life, but your family put up some assets

to get you out on bail. That was a

$350,000 bail, right? It doesn't

straighten you up. No. When I get out on

bail, I'm clearheaded, but I don't know

what to do because I've never been in

this situation. I don't have a job. I

have two, three mortgages to pay. I have

a condo on the ocean in Myrtle Beach. I

have three homes. The tenants stop

paying the rent because they saw I was

arrested. Now I'm back in the chase

again to try to get my life back

together. And then it turns into a whole

new scenario comes my way. I'm out on

bail. I end up making a plan to go to

Nicaragua if they can become a shrimp

fisherman. Wait, let's pause there a

second. So you're out on bail and you

plan to escape the US, which means that

you'd be escaping your charges, correct?

But I can't go if I don't pay my family

back. I can't leave them homeless.

Okay. So, when you go out on bail, your

family are basically guaranteeing the

money. The money, right? So, if you

don't return from bail, they got to sell

their homes to pay my bail. They've got

to get $350,000. Yes. So, what you want

to do is you want to get $350,000, give

it to your family, correct? So that you

can escape the US. Correct. Okay. Yes.

And how would you plan to get that

$350,000?

There's a scenario comes my way. There's

a woman that owes this drug organization

half a million in cash and 10 kilos. All

we have to do is go get the money from

her and the drugs and I could pay my

family back and we can I can leave the

country and Kenny's going to join me. My

partner's back in. But that wasn't the

plan. The plan was never to kidnap her.

The plan was to go in with some

flowers, push her out of the way, take

the money and the drugs. But Kenny is

working for the federal government right

now wearing a wire. He called me up for

the drugs that brought me into his

conspiracy and they made me the kingpin

of his conspiracy. How long had you

known Kenny? I had known Kenny since

1985. So now it's 1992.

So you'd known him a long time? Yeah,

seven years. You'd been friends a long

time? Yes. And Kenny

intentionally wears a wire. Correct. And

pulls you into a conspiracy. Correct.

Working with the police. With the

federal government. Yes. Where they're

trying to get you to potentially kidnap

this woman, steal her stuff. Correct.

And leave the country. So what does that

do? That makes me It takes me from a

low-life drug dealer to a low life

kidnapping murderer guy. So then I'll

never go home. You see? You see how they

they're good. They're good. They take

you from being a drug dealer who's going

to get 15, 20 years to a murderer,

kidnapper. You took the bait, though.

Took the

bait. Swallow it like a pig. So, you've

left jail. You're out on bail. Kenny

starts putting in your head this idea of

potentially kidnapping or stealing from

this woman. You don't know he's working

for the police. And on the day of this

attempted kidnap/ robbery, correct?

You're arrested. Correct. Again. Again.

again. And how And how does it feel the

second time you're arrested? Relief

again? No. Now I'm angry. Now I'm pissed

off. I'm pissed off because I'm You got

to realize I'm a rat in a corner trying

to get out. You throw some cheese in

front of me. I go and eat the cheese and

then you poison the cheese, which is

Kenny bringing the [ __ ] poison pill

to me of this kidnapping theory that

unfolds. Why did you take the bait

there? Why didn't you just Because you

talked to me. You said you had relief

when you were arrested that first. I

Let's dichotomy of this whole thing. It

was the greatest relief of my life. But

I jumped back in like a fool. It was,

you know, the word fear always comes out

first for me. Fear of not being able to

provide from now I got a wife and two

kids because I I was told I'm getting 25

to life by the state of New

York. That'll make anybody consider

running. I don't give a [ __ ] who you

are. Now you're a police officer in your

30s. 25 to life, you know. All right.

So, you know, you're getting 25. So,

maybe 30. So, now I'm 30 something years

old. If I get out at 60, maybe if I live

through it, I'm looking to go. Bottom

line. Now, whatever opportunity comes

along, I'm looking to hit on it.

Whatever I can do. So, I'm like that

fish that they dangle that bait.

Eventually, that fish is going to bite

that hook. What happens to the bail? Did

do your family get to keep their money?

Yes. because I got arrested. Because I

got arrested. Eventually, you're

convicted of rakateeering, organized,

which is basically an organized crime

scheme and conspiracy to distribute

narcotics. Right. You served 12 years

and 5 months in prison. Yeah. That day

you went to prison. If I had asked you,

how long do you think you're going to be

here? What would you have said? So, when

I was sitting there waiting to get

sentenced, I'm think I'm going to get

seven, eight years. And uh sure enough,

she was firm and gave me what she

thought I deserved. Uh Mr. Dow, that's

168 months. So I'm going, "What the

[ __ ] 168 months?" And she knew it. She

goes, "That's 14 years." How did you

feel when you heard that? I was

devastated. I was

devastated. You don't know how you're

going to react. I was pissed and

devastated

and how I I got to survive this. Like

now you go right into survival mode. I

got to survive this. And how am I going

to do that? People often think if you're

like a cop and you get sent to to prison

that you're going to have a really hard

time. You are. Did you have a hard time?

Yeah. But I was fortunate enough that

see I went to prison as a as basically a

racketeer. Right. So and and and I

worked with Dominican drug gangs. 30% of

the population is Dominican Puerto Rican

drug dealers in that realm. Then you

have your street peddlers which are

wouldn't be the same level. And then you

have your white collar guys and your

bank robbers. So I was I was a cop sent

to I was sent to prison as a police

officer for violating human rights for

beating and abusing individuals. I was

sent to prison for doing what everybody

else in there was doing. So the landing

was a little bit different for me. Now

don't say it was not easy. I didn't have

people opening a welcoming mat for me.

But there were some people that were

kind and that helped make made my bid go

well. No matter where I am in the world,

it seems like everyone is drinking

matcha. And there's a good chance that

that matcher you're drinking is made by

a company that I've invested more than

seven figures in who are a sponsor of

this podcast called Perfect Ted because

they're the brand used globally by cafes

like Blank Street Coffee and Joe in the

Juice and many, many more. Not only can

you get Perfect Ted Matcha in cafes, but

you can now also make it at home much

cheaper in seconds using our flavored

matcha powders that I have here in front

of me. Perfect Ted Matcha is ceremonial

grade and sourced from Japan. It is

smooth. It is naturally sweet, not like

those bitter grassy matches that I tried

before. Perfect Ted. And if you are one

of those people that have told yourself

you don't like matcha, it's probably

because you haven't tried our Perfect

Ted Matcher. And you can find Perfect

Ted Matcher in the UK in Tesco,

Sainsbury's, Holland and Barrett and in

Waitro or Albertine if you're in the

Netherlands and on Amazon in the USA or

get the full range online at

perfectted.com where you can get 40% off

your first order with code

Steven40. What about your family at this

point? Your mom and dad.

Okay, let's watch your head. Yes.

Okay. I'm Carol

Dow and uh I'm Michael Dow's

mother. Well, I remember being in court.

I only went to court once and that was

the day of

sentencing. And when they said the

amount of days he would be away, I

didn't really it didn't like hit my

mind, right? Because it was in days. It

wasn't in years, you know. when somebody

says that could be 15

years and we tried to deal with it the

best we could. Everything was going

smooth in our lives and then all of a

sudden this hit when I saw him. I guess

my first reaction was I love him but I

want to just reach in through the bars

that between us and say what did you do

this for? You know I can I can only

imagine Yeah. the the emotions that must

go through your head when you when you

find out something like that. Yeah, it's

it's terrible. Believe me, it's

terrible. Especially when you think

you're dealing with something else.

You're dealing with a kid who was honest

and reliable and smart and

good. Absolutely

shocked. I was angry, very angry at him.

How could you do this? You know, that

type of thing. She took eight months to

come see me. Eight months? Yeah. And

then she finally came and she she didn't

want to let me

go. You know, that was

tough. She had she went to church every

day 12 years.

She's

able. That's

tough. Yeah.

Okay.

Why why do you think that that moved him

so much? Uh I don't think he ever really

sits back and thinks about the other

people, you know, the other people in

his life, his father, his mother, his

family. It was all about him. It wasn't

about anybody else around him. How does

that make you feel when you see see him?

It made me feel

glad that he felt

sorry because he never really says this