Some of the studies I was looking at

shows that if you get married after 30,

each additional year of age increases

your chance of divorce by 5%.

I couldn't figure out why. Oh, I think

there are several reasons for this. So,

first of all Lori Gottlieb

renowned psychotherapist

bestselling author

couples counselor

who's helped thousands of people find or

save their relationships. People use the

first date as I'm supposed to feel this

one thing or else forget it and people

will come into therapy and say, "I

didn't feel like butterflies, so I'm not

going to go out with him again." People

said they wouldn't go on a second date

with somebody because he ordered tap

water. He must be really cheap. There

was one where somebody said, "Oh, he did

this impression from Austin Powers."

Yeah, baby. He's just nervous. He was

trying to make you laugh.

What about he asks to split the bill?

Would that be an ick?

If he doesn't pay, that would be a huge

ick for me. Really? But it's really

important to understand why, which is

interesting. Now your partner has to be

your best friend, have the same

interests, has to rock my world in bed

or someone who's really ambitious, but

also really family oriented. No one

human could possibly do that. If you

look at what are the most important

things that would predict whether a

relationship is going to last. is really

important

are very important. And then emotional

is really important.

What does that mean? It means

You went to therapy because of

heartbreak. Yes.

How do we navigate through that dark

cloud? One strategy that might be

helpful is

It's absolutely crazy to me that so many

of you have decided to watch our show um

and so many of you have decided to

subscribe to our show. We now have 5

million subscribers on YouTube, which is

a number that I just can't comprehend

and it's a dream that I absolutely never

could have had. We started The Diary of

a CEO just over 3 years ago now and in

my wildest expectations, we might have

had 100,000 subscribers by now. So, you

can imagine how shocked I am

that so many of you have chosen to tune

into these conversations every week um

and spend some time with us. So, thank

you. And I made a deal with you. I made

a deal that if you subscribe to this

show, that we would continue to raise

the bar and in 2024

we're going to raise the bar like never

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The production's going to change. We're

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on with the episode.

[Music]

Lori,

if you had to summarize what it is

you have done for people over the last

couple of decades, how would you

summarize that? I would say that I help

people to learn what gets in their way

from living the life that they want to

live. And what departments of their life

do you tend to focus on? All of them.

They're all so important, but I think

it's really about people's relationships

and I mean relationship to self. What is

going on with the way that I talk to

myself, the way that I make decisions

and choices, the way that I hold myself

back, relationships with friends, with

romantic partners, with family members,

with um professional colleagues, all of

it. And of all of those subcategories,

what are the categories within that that

people come to you advice for

most often through your podcast, through

your articles, through your therapy

work? Well, it's interesting because

it's usually somebody coming in and

saying, "I really want something in my

life to change." And what they want to

change is someone else.

Right? And so, I think what they're

surprised to find is that yes, there are

difficult people in their lives. You

know, we like to say that before

diagnosing someone with depression, make

sure they aren't surrounded by

So,

um you know, there are really difficult

people out there. But the question is,

where's your agency? What are the

choices that you're making? Um are you

setting boundaries with these people?

Are you adding to the tension between

the two of you because you're kind of in

a dance and you're doing some old

pattern that you're in with this person.

So, I think it's really important to

become self-aware and say, "What am I

doing in the world that gets me closer

to the way that I want to live and what

am I doing in the world that keeps me

from getting there?"

And since you got into this line of work

and since your sort of education in this

area began,

what changes have you seen in the types

of questions and the types of issues

that are being presented to you in a

sort of clinical setting or online or

through your DMs, etc.? I think most

people are really seeking connection of

some sort that they don't have in their

lives.

And there's a sense of being alone,

whether it's I'm the only person who

feels this way, I'm so ashamed, I don't

know why I'm so anxious or I'm so

depressed or it's a feeling of I feel

like I'm I have all these sort of

friends, you know, kind of peripherally

or friends in the world, if you look at

their social media, but they don't

really have someone that they could call

and say, "I really need to talk to you

about this." Who's this person you can

confide in? You know, there are these

studies that have been done where they

they looked at, you know, several

decades ago, how many people said, "I

have someone close that I can call." And

most people had at least someone,

usually a few people. Now most people

have zero people. They have said zero,

"I have nobody that I can call and

confide in in that deep way." Does that

mean that there's a greater pressure now

put on our romantic partners to meet

more of our needs? Yes, absolutely. And

that's one of the things that I think

you see in dating, especially with

younger generations, because it used to

be that your community was there to meet

all different kinds of needs. So, now

it's, you know, people like to say,

"Well, my partner is my best friend."

Well, but you also have a best friend.

Most people also have a best friend,

right? So, so what happened or maybe

they don't anymore because of what we've

been talking about. So, the question is

now your partner has to be your best

friend where they are there to meet all

of your emotional needs. Whereas before

you had, you know, I could talk to this

friend about this and I had this friend

that my partner doesn't like this hobby,

but I get to go. My partner doesn't like

move these kinds of movies, but I could

go to these kinds of movies with this

person or, you know, whatever it is. And

now it's like we have to kind of have

the same interests and we have to be

able to talk about all the same things

and we have to, you know, he has to rock

my world in bed or she has to rock my

world in bed or they have to um read my

mind. Right? And so, no one human could

possibly do that. There is no human who

can do that. And so, what happens is we

think something's wrong with this

relationship if I'm not getting that

from this person. And what are the other

sort of big picture items that are

making it harder for us to be satisfied

romantically these days? I think again

the sort of expectations of what it

means to be loved. I think that when

people really put everything into this

other person, they aren't getting the

the kinds of emotional nourishment that

they would be getting from the larger

community. So, whether it's extended

family that used to be around, most

people a lot of people don't even live

where their fam where they grew up

anymore. So, they're kind of putting

down roots somewhere else. Um they are

kind of, you know, they they have to

form like a whole new group of people.

There's something to be said for the

people who knew you when you were young.

There's something about that about

really being known because I think in

relationship, people really want to know

and be known. I remember I had a couple

come in and this was so striking to me

where um she said to her husband, "You

know what three words I really want to

hear?" And he said, "I love you." And

she said, "No, I understand you." And

that was so profound that how deep a

yearning we all have to want to be

understood. And I think that that comes

from, you know, you have history with

people and you have shared experiences

with people, but we're moving around so

much nowadays that we don't have that

history or those shared experiences and

people didn't know us at different times

in our lives. When you're truly known,

oh, you went through this transformation

or you went through this difficult time

or I remember that fun time we had when

we were 16 years old.

And so, a lot of people just don't have

those kind of deeper connections

anymore. What is it about being

understood that

we want? Like what is it what is the

fundamental there? Is it does it make us

feel psychologically safer or what what

is it?

Oh, it makes us less lonely. Okay. If

you feel like you're the only one who

understands what's going on for you,

you're all alone.

And that's why it's so interesting, you

know, having the Dear Therapists podcast

or having the column, where most people

write in and think that they are alone

and yet I have thousands of people

writing in the same exact thing. So,

they're not alone, but they think that

they're alone. They feel no one

understands or no one would understand.

And I see this more with men also than

with women, although both I get that,

but it it's interesting because I think

that with with men, you know, often

they'll come into therapy. Men get into

therapy sort of one of two ways. They

either come in because they're in a

couple and there's a problem in the

relationship and so they come into

therapy or they come in kind of

secretively. Like, you know, no one

knows I'm here. And they'll say, "I've

never told anyone this before." And the

thing that they tell you is something

that women will talk about quite easily.

And it's not that men are less deep than

women. It's that women feel more

comfortable to over lunch with a friend

say something like that. And when women

come in and they say, "I've never told

anyone this before." They'll say,

"Except for my mother, my sister, my

best friend." So, they've told a few

people. Maybe one person, maybe two,

maybe three.

And so, I think it's interesting because

I think that, um, you know, men can be

particularly lonely because they really

don't have the place to kind of connect

in the way that women are more

culturally

acceptable to do so. Women sometimes

have an expectation that their partner

will open up in the same way that their

best friends will open up. Yeah. And

many men fall short of that expectation.

I,

you know, I think there's often a

narrative that women want a man to kind

of sit down and talk about his problems

and open up and listen and all those

kinds of things that a woman might do

with her best friends, but men for some

reason tend to struggle with that. Yeah.

Well, they they women want that and they

don't want that. So, women say they want

that and they think that they truly mean

it when they say they want that. But in

couples therapy, I'll I'll see something

like a woman will come in and and, you

know, she'll say that exact thing to her

partner, you know, I really want you to

open up. I feel like we're not

connecting. I want you to be more

vulnerable with me. I want you to tell

me what's going on inside.

And if he does, and let's say he starts

crying,

tears up, or really starts crying, she

inevitably will have this reaction of,

"I don't feel safe when he doesn't open

up to me because I don't feel connected

to him, but I don't feel safe when he's

that vulnerable with me either because

there's something just some cultural

programming in her around what it's like

to be with a man who's crying or a man

who is vulnerable. And so, I think

that's that's really problematic and I

think that makes it, you know, kind of

harder for men to feel like, "Well, I

have a safe space to open up." Like it

takes a lot for a man to really feel

like, "Oh, this is something that I want

to share." Whereas I think women just

feel a lot more free to do that with

their partners. I saw a video yesterday

that I'm actually going to play to you

cuz I saved it

ahead of this conversation. It caused a

lot of discussion online on Twitter.

Okay. So, this is the video, okay? Yeah.

I just want somebody who's so obsessed

with the Bible and so obsessed with

Jesus and who understands and like you

said, like who can teach us things.

Yeah. Like I want my dude to speak in

tongues and have tattoos. I just want a

good man. Like a nice classic man. I

want somebody who will literally protect

me and beat someone's butt if they need

to, but also will sit there with

compassion and just like a good-hearted

man. That's what a true man is. There

has to be that dichotomy. It's the same

thing with feminine women, too. There's

always a dichotomy. But there's a

softness and a strength. And for men,

being masculine is being able to beat

someone's butt, you know, maybe not

physically, but like being a protector

and like doing what he needs to do to

protect his family, but then also being

soft enough to like be able to tend to

his wife's feelings and like to be able

That's hilarious. But that's that's, you

know, people would say, "Well, I'm not

like that."

But yet, when you actually talk to

people about when you when they're

dating and you're talking to them about

what's going on and why they're not

going out on another date with somebody

or, you know, why they won't even go on

a first date with somebody, um, those

are the kinds of things that's an

exaggerated version of the kinds of

things that you will hear. Which is what

kind of things? Like they're they're

they're not 6'4", they're not strong and

soft at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, it's you know, they have to

be this and this, these two, you know,

they want someone who's, you know, "I

want someone who's really, really

ambitious, but also really

family-oriented. I want someone Right?"

The these kinds of things that are hard

to find both of those in equal measure

in the same person. Someone who's

extremely ambitious is probably going to

spend a lot of time at work. You know, I

want some, you know, someone So, I'm

5'2" and it would be, you know, someone

like me saying, you know, "And and he

has to be over 6' Really?"

You know, just all all of these kinds of

things I So, in in my book Marry Him, I

I wrote a whole book about this because

I was looking at how do we date today?

And what are the expectations that we

have? And, you know, the the publisher

called it Marry Him, The Case for

Settling for Mr. Good Enough. It's not

about settling at all. It's actually

about having higher standards, not lower

standards, but having higher standards

about the things that actually matter.

So, I looked at all of the data and I

talked to uh, behavioral economists and

sociologists and historians and I talked

to, um, you know, people therapists who

specialize in divorce, who specialize in

couples therapy. And it was really

interesting to hear, um, to see like how

expectations have changed over time. And

then also

to see what it is that actually matters

to have a happy, fulfilling,

long-lasting relationship and how when

we're dating, we're not even looking at

those qualities.

And so, for example, the character

qualities. If you look at what are the

most important things that would predict

whether a relationship is going to last,

what qualities do you want in a partner?

Flexibility is really important. What

does that mean? So, flexibility meaning

you're not a really rigid person. People

who are really rigid, it has to be this

way. I need it this way. Um, I expect

this of you, right? You know, on social

media, we might call that, uh,

boundaries

right now. And boundaries are really

important. Don't get me wrong. Healthy

boundaries are very important, but

rigidity is when you say that, "Well,

I'm just very boundary," but you're

actually really have room for the person

to also be them.

And that you are a separate person from

the person that you're with. And often

times, it's hard for people to see that

because they're so focused on what I

need without thinking about what does

this relationship need? And what does

the other person need, too?

Emotional generosity

is really important that you give

someone the benefit of the doubt, that

you're not bringing your your old wounds

into the relationship and projecting

them onto your partner. Um, so I would

call emotional maturity or emotional

stability. So many times people overlook

that when they're dating. So, that looks

like, you know, someone comes into

therapy and they say, "I don't

understand why, you know, I I I love him

so much and I don't understand why he

didn't call when he said he would or I

don't understand why he canceled."

And I will say, "What do you love

exactly? Do you Is this

how you want your life to go? To always

be on edge? To always wonder? To be with

someone who's unreliable? Who doesn't do

what they say they were going to do?

What what part of this do you love? Oh,

but he's so funny and attractive and,

you know, um, he's so smart. You like

qualities about him, but you don't like

the way he is with you in relationship."

And so, people need to have higher

standards about the character qualities,

things that are important to them like

loyalty, reliability, emotional

stability,

um,

again, emotional generosity. Can they be

supportive of you when things are going

well for you? Uh, on that point of

expectations and how expectations are

evolving, I I found some stats. I think

some of them are very much inspired by

your first book, um, Marry Him.

One of them is that 80% of women want to

date a man over 6' tall when only 15% of

men are over 6' tall. Yes, that's that's

in the book.

Um, I found some other studies. Uh,

an eHarmony study found that 40% of

single people have deal breakers that

are associated with physical appearance.

And 50% of singles expect their partner

to be their best friend, soulmate, and

to fulfill all of their emotional needs.

That was a study done by match.com.

Um, and then the other ones that I found

quite interesting were

you talk about in the book how this sort

of generational shift in expectations

and where that's come from. But in, like

my my granddad's generation or even my

dad's generation,

I would assume they wouldn't have had

the same set of impossible expectations.

I would assume. Is that Is that what you

found in your research? I think

everybody wants to feel that really deep

connection with their partner. And so, I

think that the way that society has

improved is that we are not just

marrying for sort of practicality, but

we are also marrying because we

genuinely enjoy being with this person

and want to go through life with this

person. But I think what we're losing a

little bit is do our values align? Like

the practical part matters. So, I think

the pendulum swung in the other

direction, went from almost pretty much

all practical Mhm. to now it's all like,

"Is this person my soulmate and do they

move me?" And I think you have to have

both. I'm really attracted to this

person's essence. And what I mean by

essence is you're, you know, most people

will say, this is I I I I don't know

where the study came from, but I

remember reading this study, that most

people will say that the person that

they are that they chose to spend their

lives with is not the most attractive

person they ever dated.

And I think that a lot of people say,

"Well, I wouldn't want my partner to

think that." But you're a you're more

attracted to your partner holistically.

That's why they chose you. That's why

you chose them. That's why you're

together. So, it's not just about is

this the person who was the most, you

know, the hottest person you've ever

dated. And so, I think we really have to

think about holistically who do we want

to be with. And that's what kind of

trips us up because the practical side

matters. Do you have similar ideas about

the kind of life you want to live? Do

you have similar ideas about, um, how if

you want to have kids or if you don't

want to have kids and how many you might

want to have, where you want to live,

um, what kinds of what kind of things

you want to do in your lives. Um, what

matters to you, who you are in the

world, um, political beliefs. Often

people say, "Well, that doesn't matter

as much. Um I think when you have very

different views, not necessarily about

like what political party you're with,

but more about how you see the world, if

you see the world very, very

differently, that can cause a lot of

problems in the relationship later on.

Not cuz you're fighting about the world,

but because those differences will show

up in the way you treat each other. I

hear you saying all of that, and I have

to say I agree, and I think everyone

would really agree because it makes

perfect sense. But in reality,

I was thinking about if I turn to some

of my friends that are really struggling

with dating

right now, and I said all of that to

them,

um I don't think any of it would work

because they are so hardwired

to

to be

in search of this like perfect person.

You know, when I when I speak to some of

my friends who are single and they're

say they're over 35, they've really like

never been in a relationship before.

This The things that they say

as reasons for why they're not giving

this person a chance are so unbelievably

petty. Like I have one friend, and she

knows who she is. She's a really good

friend of mine. She's been a good friend

of mine for over a decade. Shout out to

your friend.

Yeah. But I was I was on her profile

once, and she told me that the reason

she wasn't going to give this guy a

chance on this dating app was because in

the back of the picture that he his

display picture, he had boxes on top of

his cupboard. Mhm. And she was like, oh

god, he's he puts boxes on top of his

cupboard like

And she So that's why she didn't give

him a chance. So here's here's the

thing. What happens is people look at

dating profiles when they're going

through the apps, and I think, you know,

men and women tend to do this a little

bit differently. Men are like, am I

attracted to this person? Swipe.

Which also doesn't necessarily work out

for them. Like they're not really

looking for who do I want to be with?

And women do the opposite. They look at

it at, you know, they look at all the

pictures, they'll read everything that

the person wrote as if, do I want to

marry this person potentially or not? As

opposed to, do I want to spend 45

minutes having coffee with this person?

Mhm. That's really different. And also,

on a first date, it's the same mentality

where a lot of people think, oh, you

know, like people will come in to

therapy, or even friends will say,

you know, I went on this date. I had a

good time. It was fun.

I just I don't know. I didn't feel

chemistry. I didn't feel like

butterflies. I didn't I wasn't didn't

feel that that what I feel like I should

feel. So, I'm not going to go out with

him again.

And I'll say, well, why don't you just

go spend, you know, another hour with

this person and get to know this person

and see if something develops. No, no,

no, no, no, right? And so, but it's like

you had a good time. You did think you

know, they said, I did think he was

attractive, but I didn't feel chemistry.

So it's interesting because there's a

study in Marry Him where

it was a longitudinal study, and it

followed people from the time that they

met their partner, like that first date,

all the way through. They checked in

with them every 5 years for I think 20

years. And what happened was they found

that the people who were very happy

together

had kind of revisionist history about

what it was like on their first date. So

people who were really happily married

said, oh yeah, I knew immediately. I

felt immediate chemistry with this

person. I knew this person was the one.

But if you go back to what they reported

at the time, often they reported at the

time, yeah, nice person, not sure.

Okay? So so but they've changed the

story. They really truly believe that

they felt something different, but we

have data saying, no, you didn't. On the

other hand, if people did not last, if

people are divorced, that kind of thing,

um they will say, oh, I was never

attracted to the person, or I knew there

were red flags in the beginning, but

that's not what they reported at the

time. At the time, they reported, wow,

this person's amazing. So it's really

interesting that people use the first

date as as like, I'm supposed to feel

this one thing, or else forget it. When

people who are very, very happy

together, totally in love, totally

attracted to each other, often didn't

feel those sparks on the first one, two,

three dates. You know, maybe they were

even friends for a while.

But people don't give each other the

chance to get to know the other person,

or to let the other person get to know

you. And I think that because the apps

give this illusion of um so many people

are juggling multiple people at a time.

So someone will go on a date with

someone, and then they'll say, yeah,

that was fine. Uh not, you know,

maybe it was like a seven. So, nah.

And then they they're like, I have

another date tomorrow. Or they just

they're leaving the date and they're

walking to their car and they're swiping

on the apps

already.

Because they have the illusion that

there's so many people out there, but if

you just keep juggling people, you're

never going to get to know anybody and

to know if that person is someone that

you want to be with.

So what would you say to a serial dater

then? You would say to

go on the second date even if the person

is a seven? Or is there Cuz I know so I

know people that have gone to go on

hundreds of dates a year, and I think

statistically they must have met someone

that they would have been happy with

by now. Yeah, maybe. It depends if

they're making good choices about who

they go on dates with. So some people

will just go on dates to go on dates.

Other people, if they're being really,

you know, if if they're saying, hey,

this person seems like someone I would

want to be with, and that's who they

choose to go on a first date with, then

yes. But I would say the question you

ask yourself at the end of a first date

is,

did I have a good time? The answer is

yes, I would go on a second date.

Doesn't have to be I had a

life-changing, transformative,

you know, I was Cupid's arrow shot me.

No, it just, did I have a good time with

this person? Yeah, go on a second date.

See what happens the second time.

Who has higher expectations typically,

men or women? And who is most likely or

most willing to adjust their

expectations? Mhm.

Um I think it really depends on the

person. And I think that the

expectations are higher in different

areas. I think for men, um the

expectations are very high around

physical appearance.

And and I think for the younger

generation especially because they're

growing up on all of these thirst traps

that are posted on social media, and

they're seeing all of these girls just

posting, you know, all of these really

provocative pictures that have been

filtered, that have been, you know, it

took them 30 shots to get that one shot

that they put up. And so when they see

people in real life and what they really

are like on a day-to-day basis, they

have these very unrealistic

expectations. And I think that's

different from in the past when you saw

many more people in real life than you

do now, where you're seeing more people

online most of the time. And I think for

women, the expectations

are, you know, I think it's confused

with feminism. So feminism is great. I'm

a feminist. Um but I think that feminism

is not this person has to meet all of

these criteria that are not really

human. And I go through them in the

book. You know, the kinds of things that

people say, and I have all these surveys

in the book about the kinds of things

people say they're looking for and

they're not finding the right person.

And I talk about this study that Barry

Schwartz did. He wrote The Paradox of

Choice, and he looked at the difference

between maximizers and satisficers.

And this applies to dating as much as

anything else. But, you know, the way it

doesn't apply the way that you can look

at it, the way he did in his study was,

he said, look, if you go into a store

and you want to get some jam, and they

have 30 different varieties, most people

just leave because they can't choose.

They're just they get they get anxious,

they don't know what to pick. It's not

like more is better. If you have two

different choices, it's easy. You say,

oh, I like this one, and you're really

happy with it. The people who did choose

from the 30, they're less happy because

they they're trying to maximize, and

then when they taste it and they go home

with it, they think, oh, I wonder what

that other one would have tasted like.

You know, because there were so many

choices. The person who picked from one

of the two is very happy with their

choice. So if you look at the kind of

dating analogy, it's like I I like to

use In the book, I talk about a sweater.

Say you want a sweater, and you know

exactly what you want. It needs to be

this material, so it's not itchy, this

color looks good on you, this is the

right size, this is the right price,

this is the style you're looking for.

You go into a store and you find it. The

satisficer will buy it, be really happy

that they found it, and really enjoy it

for a very long time. The maximizer will

say, oh, I found this, but while I'm at

the mall, I might as well just put this

one, you know, back on the on the shelf,

and I will go look at a few other stores

to see if I can find something that's

maybe a little like the color is a

little bit better, or the the price is

maybe there's something on sale, or

maybe there's something that's a

slightly different material,

and they keep looking, and then they

find something that's maybe slightly

better in their mind,

and they buy it, they're less happy with

it because then it took them all this

anxiety and energy to find it, and then

they find it, and they're always looking

over their shoulder, well, maybe there's

another one, maybe there's a better one,

maybe there's a different one. And the

next time they're walking and they pass

a store window, they think, oh, I should

have gotten that one. So maximizers

think that they're putting in all the

research to find the thing that's going

to make them happiest, but going through

that process makes them unhappy, not

only by going through that process, but

when they get the thing that they decide

on.

So with dating, we want to be

satisficers, which means we have very

high standards. It's not like, oh, I'm

satisfied, that's enough. It's like,

you're satisfied because your standards

are very high, but you're not always

looking over your shoulder to wonder

what you're missing out on. You're not

always in this state of FOMO. Do you see

a gender difference between satisficers

and maximizers at all? Again, it depends

on the person. It really does. I mean, I

think that when you when when you look

at the surveys in Marry Him, women do

tend to be maximizers more than men.

But, I think that I think that men do

have very high standards, but I think

that men are also like after they get

over the oh, I need to be with a

supermodel and then they come back down

to earth and they say, "Oh, I need to be

with someone that I'm really attracted

to." which is different thing.

They're much more holistic. Like, who do

They ask the right questions. Who do I

enjoy being with?

And I think for women, it's there's so

many different things. There are, you

know, in Marry Him, I talk about the

things that people said they wouldn't go

on a second date with somebody over and

it was like, "He ordered tap water

instead of sparkling water. He must be

really cheap."

You know, these assumptions that people

make. Like, when they came by and said,

"Which kind of Which kind of water do

you want?" And maybe he's just

accommodating. Maybe he just said, "Tap

water's fine." Um or, you know, he wore

this he wore those kinds of uh shoes

with that kind of belt. He doesn't have

any fashion sense.

There was one where somebody said, "Oh,

he did this impression from Austin

Powers, this movie. He did this

impression and it was really

embarrassing and I I I was so cringey."

And it was like, he was just nervous. He

was on a first date and he was trying to

make you laugh. Why don't you go on a

second date and if he does something

cringey on the second date, okay, then

you know. But, a lot of times on a first

date, people are just really nervous.

So, they did one thing, but the rest of

the date was great, go on another date

with them. Do you think it's really that

like in the case of the like the Austin

Powers impression or whatever it was, is

that really the truth? Is it Was it

really that or is there something else

going on in their psychology where that

they've got commitment issues or, you

know, the

cuz I just think surely it can't be

that. Yeah. Yeah, I I think you're

right. I think when you really get down

to it, you see that, you know, there are

reasons that people will find something

wrong with a partner if they are

avoidant of intimacy.

So, you do see that. But, also I I write

about in Maybe You Should Talk to

Someone, one of the patients that I

write about is this young woman uh who I

call Charlotte in the book. And

Charlotte is somebody who is in her 20s,

she's attractive and professionally

successful, and um you know, like a

lovely person, but she keeps going after

men who replicate her childhood. And

she's not alone in that. Most of us, if

we haven't really worked through

whatever it was that that we didn't get

growing up or that we got too much of or

not enough of, what happens is we end up

seeking out the familiar. We end up Our

unconscious has Our subconscious has

radar for people who are like the person

that hurt us in childhood because it's

our experience of love. Even if it

wasn't a positive experience, it's the

only experience that we have had of

love. And so, the imprint that we have

is, "Oh, that's love." So, what happened

for Charlotte was she would meet

somebody and he would seem very

different from her parents. Her mother

was very depressed. Her father was very

kind of either

very present for her or then abandoning

her. And um

he also drank too much and had alcohol

issues. So, she would find somebody. She

would think, "Oh, this person's so

different from either of my parents."

Then she'd get to know him and realize,

"Oh, wow, he drinks a lot, too. Didn't

realize that." Um except her

subconscious did. Like, she somehow had

radar for that person. Or, this person

yells a lot, too. Or, this person's

really inconsistent with me. They're

either love bombing me or they're

disappearing and I never know where I

stand with them. That was her experience

of her father. So, if Once she really

kind of processed what happened with her

family, she started going out with

different kinds of people. Meaning, she

started being attracted to different

kinds of people. In that transition

period, she was like, "Oh, I'm going out

with this person, but I'm not He seems

really good for me, but I'm not really

attracted to him." That was because she

was still attracted to sort of the

father and the mother, the different

qualities, the victimy mom and the and

the unavailable mom and then the dad who

was kind of inconsistent with his

availability and also his temper and his

drinking. So, it's interesting to see

that she would date people just like

that without realizing it at first that

she was choosing them. So, I think that

one thing that therapy can really do for

people is to help you see, why is it

that you're having trouble meeting

someone? Why is it that you're having

trouble once you're in relationship with

someone, if you get that far,

maintaining that relationship or finding

someone who's good for you? If you sat

down with someone who had repeatedly

made the choice to date and have

one-night stands with people that were

clearly

going to hurt them or were clearly not

going to call them back the next day,

but they had this pattern of continually

going for people that were clearly

either not interested in them or saw

them as like a one-night stand

transaction.

What would your assumption be about that

individual's

backstory? You know, I hate to make

assumptions, but I would say in general

what I would probably find would be that

this person um

is terrified of intimacy.

This person doesn't feel that anybody

will love them. They feel unlovable.

They feel like nobody would would want

to be in a relationship with them. So,

it's you can't fire me, I quit.

Right? So, it's I'm not even going to

put myself in that position. I know this

is going to be a one-night stand. I

don't have any expectations. I'm

empowered, right? This is the story they

tell themselves is, "I'm so empowered

that I don't have to feel. I don't have

to get attached. Look at me. I I am

above my feelings." But, the thing is

they're really terrified of their

feelings. They're terrified of being

attached. They're terrified of seeing

whether somebody can love them.

Because they're worried that they're

going to get what's confirmed uh by

somebody else, which would be the

confirmation would be, "Oh, look, I

tried. I got attached to this person and

they didn't reciprocate it. Or, we dated

for a month and then they broke up with

me. So, see, that proves that I am

unlovable."

And that doesn't prove anything. It just

proves that this person was not the

right person for you. Where would you

start with trying to help somebody that

was in that situation? I would go

straight to the the question of

lovability. I would go straight to the

question of, you know, what would it be

like to feel your feelings and how

terrifying is that for you? To feel

attached to someone, how scary is that?

To feel like they are the arbiter of

your worth. And how can we switch that?

So, when you go on a date, it's not will

they love me, but am I interested in

them?

Do I want to spend time with them? So,

it's not about am I going to be chosen,

but I get to be the chooser. What is

that like? Because that person has never

been able to be the chooser. And yes,

sometimes you will choose someone who

doesn't reciprocate that, but you also

get to choose someone. Sometimes you

will choose some You someone will choose

you, but you don't reciprocate that. So,

you just you know, so it's not the this

person is not saying, whoever you go out

with, they are not determining your

worth, that you know what your worth is,

no matter what happens. And I think you

really have to work on the self-worth

part and where the story came from

because we all come into therapy with

narratives about ourselves. And there's

stories that someone told us about

ourselves, either verbally they told us

like, "You're not good enough. You're

not this enough. You're not that

enough." Or, they told us with their

actions like they they weren't nurturing

to you. They didn't love you in the way

that you you saw other kids being loved.

And so, you took in the story of I must

not be lovable. Jumping back to

something you said earlier cuz I was

thinking about this the the the disc the

general disconnect amongst men and women

these days. You used the word feminism

earlier. Mhm. There's been a lot of

changes in societies'

expectations and um views of the role of

a man and a woman

in a relationship, but more broadly in

the workplace and society. And this has

caused a lot of

interesting dynamics that I think might

be having a an impact on

um people's expectations and the amount

of satisfaction in dates.

Some of the studies I was looking at

ahead of your arrival today was one

study that shows that 71% of people say

it's very important for a man to be able

to support family financially, to be a

good husband or partner, but by

comparison, only 32% say it's very

important for a woman to do the same

thing and that's Pew Research survey.

Um but also, another study that said

this is on Sage Journals that men showed

less attraction towards women who

outsmarted them.

And when you look at the changes in

income and intellect, in 1980, women

earned about 60% of what men did, but by

2020, that had risen to 83%.

Um there's obviously still issues with

gender pay gaps and and such, but what

we're seeing here is the kind of macro

trend is that women are more educated

and have more money.

The expectation that a man is going to

be the provider in the household still

persists.

And men don't want to date again,

speaking generally, according to some

studies that show attraction

preferences, women that outsmart them.

Right. So, the the interesting thing is

that

when people say, you know, I want I want

to have flexibility, meaning a lot of

women will say this. I want to have

They'll say, "I absolutely expect that

I'm going to have a career,

but I also don't want to be the sole

provider for the family."

Um and if they're really honest, a lot

of women will say, "I would like my

husband to earn more than me." At the

same time, more women are getting

college degrees. More women are getting

graduate degrees. More women are getting

ahead of men in those areas. And so,

women will also say, "And I want someone

who's as educated as I am." But, there

aren't as many men, just number-wise.

So, if there are more women who are

educated, meaning college, graduate

school, than men, but those women want

men who have those degrees, they're not

the There's low inventory of men who

have that. And so, there's a There's

sort of a problem with that.

Um and so, what I really want to

encourage people to do is when they're

dating, and this is not about lowering

your standards, it's about saying to

women, there are lots of kinds of

intelligence. So, you Yes, you want to

be with someone who is equally

intelligent,

but that doesn't mean that they have the

same degrees that you have. Who do you

want to talk to? Who do you have

interesting conversations with? Is this

causing an issue for successful women

that are that are over 30? I was reading

an article, I think it was in the

Washington Post, where um a lady was

interviewing another lady who'd written

a book called, I think it's called like

The Gender Gap or something, and they

concluded that much of the reason why

successful women above the age of 30

were struggling in dating is because of

this issue that men don't want to be

with a woman that is like better than

them, and it's somewhat emasculating to

a man.

And so, I I've had lots of private

conversations with very successful

women. I know for men a lot of

successful women that are very

exceptional in their relationships, but

I've also got a small cohort of women

that tell me

that they're struggling in dating

because they're too successful and men

don't like it and are emasculated. Is

that true? I think there's this

narrative in our culture that

women are Women who are successful are

not finding men because they're focused

too much on their career, and I think

that's absolutely false. I think that

when you are out there in the work

environment, you are meeting men.

And that's where you're And you're

meeting other people, you're meeting

other women who maybe are married and

their husbands have friends. You're out

there in the world and people are seeing

you. So, I think And also, you have

meaning and purpose in your life and

you're doing something you enjoy, and I

think that that's very attractive. I

think that there are, you know, I think

that people

are wanting someone who can not live

their work,

which is different from being

successful.

And because you want a partner who's

also available to you, but I don't think

that it's because women are too focused

on their careers that that's what's

happening. I think it's because of this

gap that the women who are maybe

achieving certain things in the world

are not finding men who are achieving at

the same level, and so they're not

They're just aren't enough men for those

women.

The numbers just don't work out. And so,

then there's this question of

as a woman who is a very high-achieving,

do you have to be with somebody who is

high-achieving in the same way?

And that's a very hard cultural shift

for a lot of women to make. And the

other problem is that when

high-achieving women want to be with

high-achieving men, a lot of those

high-achieving men are not great

partners. And that's the thing that So,

so they might be dating a lot of

high-achieving men, and they maybe they

are finding them, but then they find

that this person doesn't have time for

me, or this person isn't really

nurturing, or this person is, um you

know, married to his job, and I don't

like that. I think it's hard when you

have two people who are extremely

focused on their professional lives, and

neither one of them has time for the

relationship. So, I'm not saying, you

know, there are a lot of relations where

that works really well, where both

people are very focused on their

careers, but they also understand each

other in a way that helps them.

And then there are the relationships

where you have two very high-achieving

people, and they both expect that the

other person is going to be more

involved in the relationship to help

them support their own career, and they

can't because they're supporting the

their career. So, you can't You can't do

both. Yeah, just with this stat in mind

that 71% of people say it's very

important for a man to be able to

support a family financially to be a

good husband or partner.

If we get to the point a point, which is

kind of the the trajectory we're on,

where women and men are earning the

same, women already have more sort of

college degrees than men by about, I

think it's roughly about 10% at the

moment, roughly.

We're going to find ourselves where,

yeah, expectations

for what a man can offer are really,

really high, but reality is really low,

and then you that it feels like that

the amount of women that are not finding

what they want is going to continue to

increase.

And the amount of men that don't feel

like they are good enough for a woman

because they're not smart enough, they

don't have enough money, they can't

contribute in the same way, is also

going to increase. But then also, with

general working dynamics, we're seeing

that people are getting married later

and later, they're having less and less

kids.

So, are you at all concerned about this

trajectory? Yes, very.

Um because I think it leaves a lot of

people who really want a partner and and

could really enjoy having a partner who

maybe is different from what this

cultural norm is,

they don't go after that. So, a woman

will say, "Oh, I'm not going to even go

on a date with this guy because he's not

successful enough."

Um you know, "We're too different." And

a man, on the other hand, might say,

"I'm not going to even go on a date with

her because she's so focused on her

career, or, you know, she Or I'm not

good enough for her." So, they they

don't even get a chance to even see if

they might be a good match. And And

sometimes it's a great match because you

don't necessarily want two people who

are exactly the same. And I see this all

the time with couples who come in for

couples therapy, where they thought that

what was so good about the relationship

when they first got together was, "We're

so the same." And then they find that,

"Wait a minute, but there's no one here

to be more of the nurturer, or there's

no one here to spend more time with the

household, or there's no one here to do

more of kind of the logistical things in

the house because we're both doing

exactly the same job."

I was going to say, isn't that sort of

essential to the equality narrative that

you should share the responsibilities?

Right. So, equality doesn't mean that

you have exactly the same

responsibilities. It means that you feel

that there's not a power dynamic. So,

equality means one person doesn't have

more power than the other person, but

that doesn't mean that, you know, I do

laundry 2.5 days of the week, or 3.5

days of the week, and you do laundry 3.5

days of the week. Maybe someone only

does their Their responsibility is the

laundry. That doesn't mean that there's

a power dynamic. It means the other

person maybe they're always doing the

dishes, or whatever it is. It doesn't

have to be split up in this way. So, I

think that when people think about

having an egalitarian marriage, we're

talking about that there's not a power

differential, but you still get to

choose. Like, a woman might say, and I'm

being stereotypical here, it might be

the man, but often it's the woman who

says, "You know what? I want to do I

want to switch to part-time with my

work." So, that doesn't mean she has

less power in the marriage because he

makes more now because he's working

full-time. It means that they've divided

up things differently because that was

their choice.

That was That was something that was

chosen. It wasn't like, "You can't

work." It was, "I would like to do

less." Do you tend to see issues unique

to relationships when a woman is earning

more than a man? Yeah, I do. I still

think this is something that is is very

primal for us around, um you know, what

it means. I think that women sometimes

feel resentful. That's why they want to

be with someone. It's funny because a

woman can be making a lot of money, and

she won't even go out with someone who

makes the same amount. She has to go out

with someone who makes more, which is

interesting because she won't

necessarily say that. I think it's hard

to acknowledge the contradictions. And I

think for men, the same thing, that a

man will say, "You know, I want a woman

who has her own life. I want somebody

who is doing something in the world that

is important to her, but I don't want

her to make more money than me." It's

hard to say that out loud. This comes

out in couples therapy where people

start talking about, "Wow, there is this

difference." And maybe it didn't even

start out that way. Maybe it started out

where he was making more, and then

things shifted, and then she started

making more, and it changed something in

their dynamic. And so, they start

fighting a lot, but they're not fighting

about that. They're fighting about all

different kinds of things, and so it

comes out in different behaviors, and

they come to couples therapy saying,

"We're having a We're fighting all the

time, or we're not having sex, or here's

what's happening." And it turns out it

was really about this issue of who has

power now.

But they didn't realize it was about

that, or they weren't willing to kind of

look at that. Do you think it's getting

increasingly harder to know what the

role of a man and a woman are? Cuz I

think, you know, I I've had so many

conversations on and off this podcast

with people who

uh have sons or daughters. It's often

the the ones that have sons. I'm

thinking about a lady that I know, and

she says she's so confused by what to

tell her son a man is these days. And,

you know, when I think about suicidality

and how how much of a a big killer it

is, especially in the UK, I I know it's

a sort of a Western trend, but uh I

think it's the biggest killer of men

under the age of 45 is themselves. I'm

thinking, you know, there's often a

narrative that that's because

masculinity is changing, they're not

being masculine enough. And then there's

another narrative that says, "No, it's

because they're not being feminine

enough."

What's typically associated with sort of

feminine traits? Yeah. Well, it's true

that more men die by suicide than women

do, and some people say, "Well, that's

because the method that men choose is

more lethal." But I also think that

that's only part of the story because

when men do come into therapy, they they

truly, truly feel that conflicted about

exactly what you said, that I don't know

how to be a man in today's world. It

used to be much more clear. Now, I'm not

saying that was a good thing that it

used to be much more clear because there

were all kinds of power dynamics that

that weren't so healthy for men and

women. But I think now what men are

saying is, um you know, I maybe don't

want to be the person solely responsible

for, you know, like I would like my

partner to also bring in some income,

but, you know, that creates all kinds of

problems, or I want to be able to,

again, open up to and talk to my partner

in this way, but I'm afraid that it

makes her feel unsafe. So, so what do we

do? What what does it mean? And and I'm

raised so I could say I'm raising a boy

who is now 18 years old and even things

like, you know, does he still pay? He

always wants to pay on a date and then

some people don't like that. And he

thinks, well, I'm just being I'm just

being sort of chivalrous or, you know,

but but there are all these ways in

which you don't know sort of like what

is expected of you. So, it's like if he

pays, then some people take offense. If

he doesn't pay, then some people take

offense and he just doesn't know what to

do. You know, like how much of these

things that I feel are being sort of the

role of a man in a nice way. Like

protecting, taking care of,

will be offensive to some people because

they see it as kind of a power dynamic.

So, what is the role of the of a man?

It's really unclear. I mean, that's the

thing and I think that that it really

needs to be discussed and that's where I

think there's hope is that when people

can actually say, "Hey, I'd really like

to pay on this date and, you know, if

she says, well, I don't feel comfortable

with that." I think a question is,

"Okay, that's fine. You we can split it,

but I want to let's talk about why." And

to be able to talk about, you know, what

are what does this mean that I pay? What

does that mean to you? You know, I think

a lot of people would say, "Oh, well, it

means like, you know, that that you

expect something back from me. You

expect, you know, that that we're going

to have sex or you expect, you know,

whatever these old ideas are."

Yeah. And and I think that we need to be

having these conversations. That's my

point is that it's not so important that

we that we know what it means. It's more

important that we know what it means to

the person that we are interested in.

What does it mean to them? It's going to

mean something different to everybody.

So, if we can't talk to this person that

we're interested in about what it means,

then we're just going to both people are

going to be mired in confusion. Yeah,

I'm a bit of a old school romantic, as

they say. My my partner, she has a a

great job. She has her own money.

But I just absolutely feel the need to

open up every door for her, pay for

every bill for her. I would absolutely

not have it any other way. Maybe that's

cuz I'm insecure or something, I don't

know. But I just

I watched my dad do it for my mom

and it's like hardwired into my DNA that

my role is to

protect, take care of, do everything I

can to support and if she

I I yeah, God, I I

I really struggle with her paying for

me.

And she's got her own money. She's she's

got her own business, her own job. But

have you talked about it or it just

worked out that way? She never said she

never said, "Can I pay this once or can

I

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She pays she pays. You

know, she's she it's like a bit of a

competition. She'll like sneak off to

the bathroom and pay and stuff. But

generally I I think it's I've always

wanted to do that on dates and I I

think, you know, if you sat people down

and asked them the question, you go on a

first date with a guy

and he asks to split the bill or he asks

you know, he doesn't immediately pay,

Mhm. would that be an ick for you? Would

that turn you off them? That would be a

huge ick for me. Yes. Even for you it

would be? Yes. Yes. If you go on a first

date with a guy and he didn't pay? Yes.

Would you

Absolutely. Why? It's hard to articulate

because and this is what people, you

know, will say all women will say of all

ages.

I think for my age we grew up with that

was the expectation. I think for younger

generations maybe it's not the

expectation, but I think a lot of people

still like it or want it. Mhm. There's

something there's something about it

that that says, I really

I really valued our time together. I

care. I'm interested. Mhm. It's a way of

signaling interest, but I think even if

the person isn't interested and you're

never going to see each other again,

it's just a nice gesture. Mhm. But I

don't have any any rational

way of explaining why.

And if and if I were to get rational

about it, I would talk myself out of it.

Yes. I think that's a very honest

answer. And then the counter sort of

rebuttal to that means okay, so if men

are expected to pay, then

we're going to need more money. Yes.

Yes, and it gets very expensive to date.

Yeah, really does.

I mean, you know, people will say, "Oh,

you can go on a hike. It doesn't doesn't

cost anything. You can do a picnic. You

can,

you know, watch a movie." There are all

kinds of things you can do, but the

reality is it's kind of like I remember

that that old Chris Rock joke in the

first 3 months of a relationship you're

not you, you're the ambassador of you.

So, you know, you want to impress

somebody. You're you're trying to show

interest in somebody.

But I do think there is that that really

primal

need for safety that is gender based

that we don't like to talk about or

acknowledge, but that I think women

really I think if if somebody doesn't

pay on a first date if a guy doesn't pay

on a first date, I think a lot of women

don't feel safe. That's what it comes

down to. It's a it's a tricky world and

it's getting increasingly trickier it

feels, you know. It it feels like an

insult almost that the person doesn't

pay. Not many people. Some people would,

but no one would really publicly say

that though because it's like not

socially acceptable to say that you

expect them to say that. But in private

conversations, of course, everyone I

know is that if they went on a date with

with a man, so in a heterosexual

relationship and the man either asked to

split the bill

or to or suggested that you might pay,

Mhm.

this person's not going to get a second

date. Of course not. No.

No, unless it was the woman who said,

"Oh, no, let me split that with you."

But if he it was his decision

and he said, "Oh, let's split this." Or

he put it in the middle. No.

No. I I I in therapy the young woman

came to me recently and she said she

went out with this guy and they went to

a cafe and they got

coffees.

And he

uh

asked her to split it. Coffee.

And she said and she was having so much

fun on the date until the bill came.

And she was shocked and she thought,

"Okay, well,

she made it was very personal to her. At

first she thought, I must he must really

really have had a horrible time with me

to have want to not pay for my $5

coffee."

And then he asked her out again. And she

said to me, "I don't understand this at

all. So, he was interested in me and he

didn't pay for my coffee."

And she did not go out with him again.

So, these are the kinds of signals that

it it very much is emblematic of

something.

Who pays on that first date? Do you

agree with that decision that she made?

100%.

And I I didn't say that as her

therapist. It's really about

understanding it for her, but but I I do

agree with that decision and I and I

think it's because

there's something there's something

like a half note off

about a person who doesn't even see that

it's a $5 coffee and you're interested

in this person

and she wasn't making any moves to pay.

She was just sitting there for a very

long time and the the she said, this is

the way she told the story was that the

person came around and couple times and

said, "Are you ready?" And the guy said,

"Oh, no, we're not ready yet." And then

at a certain point he said to her, "Oh,

do you want to

put your credit card down, right?" to

her. And so, she just said I could never

go out with somebody like that.

Even though they had a really good time

before that.

So, if we zoom back out then, Mhm. so is

are you saying that that is a

tell tale sign of a broader character

issue that this individual has cuz

earlier you said that we really should

be focusing on like character traits. Is

that a red flag of some kind of other

character trait? I think that when

things are hard in the beginning, that's

not a good sign.

So, I think that when there's like a big

disconnect in the beginning, that you

should pay attention to that. So, a a

big disconnect is not he, you know, the

example I gave earlier of, you know, he

said yes to the tap water. Mhm. That's

different from he didn't pay for my

coffee. That's that's different. The tap

water might be, "Oh,

I don't know. Is he is he cheap? I don't

know. Let's see. Let me get to know him

better." This is

this is about generosity.

They're different things. And so, you

know, I I feel like relationships, I

always say to people when they when they

overlook things in the beginning, I

think there are two camps on this.

There's the people who think everything

is a red flag that's not like the tap

water, not a red flag. But there are

people who don't pay enough attention to

the red flags in the beginning. So, they

say, "Yes, this person they kind of

disappeared for a couple days and I

didn't like that and, you know, but but

or they they were they're late all the

time or,

you know, whatever it is. It doesn't

necessarily mean it's a deal breaker,

but it's kind of a

a flag that you want to discuss early

on. So, what what happens is if you

don't discuss it is a person will say,

you know, after they're now they're in a

relationship and they've been dating for

several months and and and they're

moving along and the person says, "I

can't stand it when you're late every

time." Mhm. And he says, "Why is this a

problem? I've always been late. Why is

this a problem now?" Mhm. Right? So, if

you bring it up early before the cement

dries. So, you know, I always say

relationships are like cement that

there's room for things to move in the

beginning before things kind of really

get hard and difficult to change. But

once the cement dries, it's much harder

to change those habits or those

interactions or the dance that you're

doing with the other person. So, if you

don't like something in the beginning,

you might want to bring it up to see how

much wiggle room is there here. Can this

person

be more aware of being on time because I

don't like sitting there for half an

hour every time we make plans.

We're getting married a lot less and

we're getting married

later later. Yeah, so there was a stat

that I I found that said

for the first time ever,

people over the age of 30 have been

haven't been married in high numbers

than ever before. So, yeah, marriage is

getting later and later in people's

lives. But, I also found this really

interesting graph, which I printed out,

which shows that there seems to be an

optimal time to get married.

Yes, I was just going to mention that.

That there's a window. So, I'll put it

up on the screen for anyone that's

looking, and I'll put it in the

description below.

But, it essentially shows that if you

get married after 30,

Mhm. you're more likely to get divorced

than if you got married between 25 and

30. Right. So, there's a sweet spot. So,

if you get married too young,

you're more likely to get divorced.

Meaning, if you get married sort of

under 20, I think it's 22 or 23, Mhm. um

but if you get married over, I think

it's 28,

you have more likelihood of getting

divorced. So, this study, which I have

in front of me by the Institute for

Family Studies, says there is an optimum

age to get married if you want to

statistically avoid a chance of divorce.

And it seems to be around ages 25 to

30-ish. Someone who marries at 25 is

over 50% less likely to get divorced

than someone who weds at age 20. Mhm.

Before the age of 32 or so, each

additional year of age at marriage

reduces the odds of divorce by 11%.

However, after 32 years old,

um every year increases your chance of

divorce by 5%.

And I couldn't figure out why.

Oh, I think there are several reasons

for this. So, first of all, I think it's

sort of obvious about marrying too

young, that you you don't necessarily

have the skills, you aren't really um

established in your own life, and uh you

don't necessarily have the maturity to

do what you need to do to be in that

kind of relationship for the long term.

You also don't really know who you are

yet. And so, you might think that you

want a certain kind of life, and you

find out your partner wants something

very different. But, once you get into

your mid-20s and even sort of later 20s,

it's an optimal time because you have a

better sense of who you are, um you know

more of what you want, and you can grow

together

as a couple.

And I think that's really important.

You're going to have more shared

experiences. You're going to know more

of each other's families. Your parents

are probably still alive on each side.

Um you're going to get to know each

other's siblings, if you have siblings.

You're going to be more integrated into

each other's lives as you get older.

First of all, you're more sort of set in

your ways. You're We talked about

rigidity earlier. You're more rigid.

Um you have different expectations. I

think when you're younger, you're more

flexible in terms of uh just being more

open-minded. We get less open-minded,

generally, as we get older

um around relationship, around the

things that we expect.

And we also have a history as we get

older. So, we have more negative

experiences

of maybe heartbreak, being broken up

with, breaking up with people, um

relationships that didn't work out that

then inform the way we behave in our

relationships. And I like to say it's

almost like we're we're punishing our

current partner for a crime they didn't

commit. So, if you were in a

relationship before where maybe you were

cheated on or someone didn't treat you

well, then you are less trusting of the

partner that you're with, or you're more

on guard or more closed off because

you're worried you're not going to get

treated well. So, it's almost like the

the more dating experiences that you

have, some people would think,

counterintuitively, they would think, um

you know, if I have more dating

experience, then I'm going to be a

better partner later on. But, often

because those were not great dating

experiences, sure you might have learned

something in them. But, if you have too

many of them, it's good to maybe have a

relationship or two before you get

married, but to have five, um it's

harder, right? Because you have all this

baggage that you're bringing in, and the

other person, who's also your age, has

all this baggage that they're bringing

in. And there might also be something

It's kind of like if a fight breaks out

in every bar you're going to, maybe it's

you, that maybe you are doing something

in relationship, and that is why. It's

not that you haven't been able to meet

someone, it's that you've been pairing

up with people in a way that is not

really healthy. So, you and you haven't

spent the time to really figure it out.

So, you're just going to keep repeating

and repeating those not-great

relationships. Even if you marry the

person, it might not last because

something has not been working in those

last five relationships, and you haven't

figured that out yet.

In your TED Talk, you talk about

part of getting to know yourself is

getting to unknow yourself.

Why do we have to get to unknow

ourselves?

Well, I think that so many people think,

I'm going to come into therapy, and I'm

going to learn so much about myself. And

you do, but part of learning about

yourself is learning what the faulty

narratives are that you've been carrying

around, whether it's I'm unlovable, or I

can't trust anyone, or I'm no good at

this, or this thing is wrong with me.

These, again, are stories that you

picked up about yourself from a long

time ago. And it might not even have

been your parents, it might have been at

school. Maybe you were bullied in

school, or maybe you were in an

environment that maybe you had ADHD, and

you were told you weren't smart because

people didn't realize that you learned

differently, and you actually are quite

intelligent. So, you have these stories.

So, it's to unknow. People will come in

and say, "Well, I'm not that I'm not

really smart." Well, you have to unknow

that because that might not be true.

Let's find out.

So, it's really, you know, I it's

interesting because I was a writer long

before I was a therapist, and I still am

a writer, but I use so much of of

writing and narrative in the therapy to

kind of help people edit their stories.

Let's look at, you know, is the

protagonist going in circles, or is the

protagonist moving forward? Who are the

supporting characters, and and do the

major characters need to be more minor

characters in your life, and do some of

the minor characters need to be more

major characters, and and

what is going to be the next chapter?

How do we look at where the story is

going? So, a lot of this is unknowing

stuff about the character, which is you.

You know, if you come up with a

character as a writer, and you say,

"Well, this person's not very smart, and

they're kind of weird, and they're

unlovable."

Well, you're going to write the story a

certain way thinking the character has

those traits. But, if you say,

"Actually, this person's quite smart,

and they're quite lovable, and they're

quite attractive." Well, you're going to

write a different next chapter for them.

I've always, on that point about sort of

narratives we've written, I've always

considered myself to be

very productive.

Maybe the more honest answer is a bit of

a workaholic to some degree. I think

that my work is fundamentally

attached and associated with my own

self-esteem.

So, I think when I'm working really,

really hard, and I feel really

productive, I think at some deep level,

I think I'm worth more, or I'm like I

fit in. It kind of it goes back to when

I was younger and I felt like I didn't

fit in. It feels like I'm more valuable.

Now, the problem you have as an adult

when you're trying to achieve a

different set of goals, like have a

healthy relationship, is this kind of

gets in your way. And I I think I found

that in myself, that I still have this

urge to be really successful and work

really hard because at some level it's

making it's doing something for my image

of myself.

But, as I get older, I kind of need to

figure out a way to drop that down a

little bit, or else I'm going to miss

out on something that's going to make me

happy, which is relationships. And a lot

of people that I speak to, a lot of

people that listen to this podcast, are

in a similar situation where they just

can't get off the train in terms of

their work. Yeah. Yeah, so we were

talking about defense mechanisms. And

so, one of the defense mechanisms is

where you take something that comes from

an unhealthy place, and you put it into

something that looks on the surface

healthier. So, I don't feel worthy, uh