A is good for reduced inflammation,

elevated veagal tone, reduced long COVID

symptoms. We have people with long COVID

just a minute of awe a day, reduce long

COVID symptoms. It's good news, right?

And and there's so much science on it

that I just now I think medical doctors

are starting to think like I'm going to

prescribe nature. I'll prescribe music

through all right um as a mechanism.

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Dher Kelner. Dr. Dher

Kelner is a professor of psychology and

the co-director of the Greater Good

Science Center at the University of

California, Berkeley. Der is an expert

in the science of emotions and their

role in social dynamics and bonding.

Today we discuss his fascinating work on

the science of emotions, including the

role of teasing in social bonding, the

role of embarrassment in social bonding

and his fascinating work on awe and the

things that lead to awe. As he

describes, awe is not elusive. It

happens when we shift our perception

from a very small scale to a very large

scale or back again, such as when we

suddenly reach a new horizon or visual

vista. Today you'll understand what all

of that really means and more

importantly how you can create this

incredible thing that we call awe in

everyday life. We also talk about the

critical aspect of human bonding in

groups and the things that both

establish and inhibit deep human bonds.

So today is a very practical as well as

conceptual conversation that no doubt

will change the way that you think about

your life every day and think about

opportunities for awe every day. As

you'll soon see, Decker Kelner is a

truly special scientist known for his

incredible rigor and creativity in the

study of emotions, but also continually

offering you, the public, ways to be and

feel genuinely better and to get more

out of life. It was a true honor and

pleasure to host him. Before we begin,

I'd like to emphasize that this podcast

is separate from my teaching and

research roles at Stanford. It is,

however, part of my desire and effort to

bring zero cost to consumer information

about science and science related tools

to the general public. In keeping with

that theme, today's episode does include

sponsors. And now for my discussion with

Dr. Dhacker Kelner. Dr. Dher Kelner,

welcome.

>> Good to be with you, Andrew.

>> Awe.

>> Yeah, we all intuitively know what it is

and yet we also don't know how to

articulate it.

>> Yeah.

>> I want to say the words overwhelm,

excited.

I get the physical sensation of a lift.

I don't think anyone ever said the word

awe and then collapsed into a turtle

position.

>> That's right.

>> Maybe we could explore that and your

thoughts about that.

>> But what got you into awe?

>> Yeah. And I and I love the word lift.

That's really interesting. Um yeah, I

was uh a young scholar in the science of

emotion that really Paul Ecman was a

pioneer in you know and and that field

in the you know 90s and early 2000s was

uh really focused on negative emotions

you know and you know this science right

anger fear fight orflight physiology

amydala cortisol uh disgust you know

Paul Ros and John he hype um and

thinking about emotions from that lens

hands and and it as a young scientist uh

and given the powerful tools of emotion

science of Darwin and Ecman and how to

just observe phenomena

uh it didn't make contact with my life

and my own experience you know I was

raised as a wild child in the late 60s

in Laurel Canyon and you know it was

like music and social change and protest

and uh you know and beauty and I was

raised I a dad who's a visual artist and

my mom taught romanticism in Virginia

Wolf and awe and the mind and and I was

like wow there's all this stuff that our

science my science can't speak to music

and visual patterns and dance and

collective movement and you know someone

like Martin Luther King and why he makes

me cry you know and I remember feeling

this and asking asking Paul Ecman I was

like you know what should I do with my

career and he's like study all you know

and so that got me going

>> if we could maybe we could talk about

the faces for a moment you know I think

every psychology and neuroscience

student

>> sees these faces of disgust of of

pleasure uh Darwin talked about this

>> babies are often presented in parallel

with those pictures of adults where

they'll show a baby like you know

recoiling from something or you know

wideeyed and leaning in. You know,

there's always seems to be a motor

component to this that maybe isn't as

captured in those two-dimensional

photographs, but

>> what's the story about hardwired facial

emotions and what are the revisions to

that story that I I'm probably not aware

of.

>> Yeah, thank you for asking that. Um, you

know, I've spent 30 years working on

that very problem. Um Paul Ecman came in

and you know as as you've suggested

right he did this revolutionary work in

New Guinea you know showed photos of six

emotions static photographs of anger

fear sadness disgust surprise and a

smile. They kind of interpreted the

faces like you or I would uh naming it

using the right words to describe those

faces. And that

you know and this is how science

occasionally works which is just by

accident that became the field and there

are a lot of debates about how reliable

those faces are how universal are they

in different cultures. Uh Ecman really

posited sort of a strong universality

that's been contested by Jim Russell L

le Lisa Feldman Barrett and others. Um

but since then there are controversies

around how wire hardwired they are. Do

they occur reliably in a child's

development? Yes and no. You know, young

children show disgust expressions

uh like social mammals do. They wse at

bad smells just like you or I would. Uh

anger is a little bit trickier to pin

down developmentally. But then our lab

and several labs around the world, you

know, Jess Tracy at UB British Columbia,

Disus Sauer, uh, and I want to talk

about this computational work started to

expand,

uh, the vocabulary of faces. And now we

there's a lot of data that suggests

there are 20 different facial

expressions. laughter, love, compassion,

awe, you know, whoa,

uh embarrassment, shame, pain, uh you

know, and that uh in some sense has

broadened the taxonomy of emotions. We

used to think of six, now there are

probably 20 distinct states in the mind.

And that's where the field is heading is

to really start to think about

physiological patterns, brain patterns

of of these distinct states. And and

I'll tell you um the hard wiring

question.

I mean it's hard science to do right

just to imagine

videotaping people from five different

countries getting their emotional

expressions and then making sense of

them. Uh it used to take one hour to

code the facial muscle movements of of

one minute. Right? So this is slow

science and I would really encourage

listeners uh and viewers to go to

alencowan.com

and I had a grad student at Berkeley

Alan Cowan who

you know

he's a computational genius and he

looked at our old science and said we

can use AI to code the face and he did

it with Google engineers he coded

144 two million videos from 144 cultures

and 16 facial expressions.

Uh 75% overlap across cultures in how we

show awe at fireworks, concentration on

a test, you know, laugh at friends. So

right now I would say 50 to 60% is

hardwired as part of who we are in our

evolutionary history. And then the rest

is subject to variation in interesting

ways.

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to get up to 27% off. I'm going to ask a

question that may or may not be possible

to answer.

>> Yeah.

>> But if anyone could, it would be you.

And it's not a test. Here's what I'm

thinking. The relationship between

emotions and what we call motor

patterns, movement

>> is obviously very close,

>> right? Disgust, a recoil, um we'll

explore awe, um anger, etc. And then

there's this other

>> node which is language, right? So we

have like emotions, motor, language,

>> right?

>> Obviously those can't be dissociated.

>> Yeah. But can we imagine somebody, let's

just like hypothetical person who can

keep their body very still while they're

angry

and

be very articulate. That includes not

moving their hands. We'd probably think

perhaps that person's like sociopathic,

but that's not the picture I'm trying to

paint. Then on the other extreme can

imagine somebody who

um is very angry and is just sticulating

a lot and moving like we can immediately

go yeah that make that makes sense and

we could do this for any emotion y right

so how should we think about

>> emotion as an experience and how it's

expressed along these three axes right

which is

>> motor language and then the emotion

itself yeah

>> I feel like without um conceptualizing

that I as a true novice of this, right?

This isn't my area of of of

understanding or expertise,

>> I can't really understand what an

emotion is, but if I understand how

those are linked, may maybe that's a a

portal into that.

>> Yeah. I know. I mean, it's a profound

question, Andrew, and and it's central

to our field, which is, you know, that

and and I appreciate it coming out of

your scientific background of studying

other mammals and other species and and

and there are these motor patterns that

you see in emotion around the world.

When you sue a child that's crying,

right, you're going to bring it in close

and caress and touch and have emotion.

When you're, you know, when you're uh

fighting a rival or when you're you see

rotten food, you're going to that motor

pattern will be there, you know, and

that's part of our research that 75% of

that is this motor pattern of facial

musculature and body and skeletal

muscles and how we respond to the

emotional events of life. And then we

have this massively complicated, you

know, conceptual system that puts words

to experience. And that's mainly what we

study in psychological science is just

that, oh, I'm feeling angry or ashamed

or embarrassed or love or compassion.

And we know and and your question points

to this like very often they're

disconnected, right? the motor pattern

and the language we use and how I would

interpret it in another person. Uh on

balance they correlate point two. So

they're just weakly they're kind of

these streams of behavior that are just

part of who we are, right? Our motor

patterns and language. And there are a

lot of ways to think about it. You could

think about cultures that value being

calm like a lot of East Asian cultures.

Be calm. Don't disrupt things. don't

blurt out, don't protest, right? And and

you'll see this disconnect. Um you can

think about certain people who

they just are more authentic and their

motor patterns come out in expressions

and they will tell you how they feel. Uh

so it's a central problem that we

grapple with. And then I love your your

third part of this equation of emotion

science which is the feeling, the

emotion. Michael Pollen is right. you

know this new book on consciousness, the

conscious feeling of something, we think

we can get it to it with words. I don't

think so.

>> You probably wouldn't either, right?

Studying the other species you've

studied, right? Uh it's some weird

mixture of everything that's happening

in your body. And ironically,

the emotion or the feeling is still one

of the uncharted territories of our

field. Is why as these complicated motor

patterns take unfold and words are

unfolding in images and memories and

visual things that you study. How does

that all come together in my feeling of

compassion or awe? And we barely know,

you know, we just we don't know.

>> Every once in a while, I'll try and

think about a concept from way outside

of standard science like the chakras or

something.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's kind of interesting, right? I

mean even if just if one looks at it

just purely as a western scientist this

idea that maybe there's a confluence of

>> of nerves and of vascule and stuff that

makes you feel kind of like rooted at

like and calm right versus like up in

your head. Uh I've been um watching this

really interesting Instagram channel.

It's a woman who does voices for

cartoons and she has the most incredible

understanding of voice and she's

commenting a lot of the time on people

in shows that I don't watch, but they

have little excerpts of where like I

guess there's this doctor on the this

it's like an ER type show. It's like a

revisiting of the the show er but she

talks about how as he's matured from

season to season in his role on the show

and he's mentoring how she literally

talks about how um his larynx and

fairings are how he's controlling those

differently as he matures and then when

he has a breakdown how the the voice

moves further up into his head and what

what that's about and so I was thinking

about this I'm like you know here's

somebody that's a very unique you know

window into all of this but we sort of

know this intuitively like when we're

excited like there's this kind of rising

from the bottom and when we're relaxed

everything just kind of sinks down to a

the diaphragmatic breathing and things

as a scientist who studies emotion. How

do you sort of decide what what uh which

lens to look at things through? Um

because a lot of the stuff I'm talking

about might sound a little esoteric, but

it's actually the stuff that's easiest

to measure. Yeah,

>> presumably you can quantitatively

measure like breaths per minute when

somebody's looking at an awe inspiring

image versus like a trivial image.

>> I love your reference to chakras and you

know the older I get, you know, I've

been doing emotion science for 34 years

or 5 years. It's good to think about the

other traditions. You know, we wouldn't

have thought about the breath, the power

of the breath,

uh, without the contemplative meditation

traditions that you've impart Ted and

Richie Davidson and others. And lo and

behold, the breath, deep exhalation,

activates the vagus nerve, calms us

down. That activation of the vagus nerve

gives people a sense of warmth in your

chest, which kind of sounds like the

heart chakra. And all the speculation

around how your soul is in your heart.

Well, there's a neurohysiological

coralate of that. Uh, I love the

paintings of Alex Gray, the psychedelic

artist. Like, if you want an image of

what our neurohysiology is, is it

synchronizes in love. You could, it's

pretty close or it's interesting, right?

So, it's good to find inspiration in

that. One of the great things about the

science of emotion and and I brought

these tools into the study of awe, you

know, which is we have learned a lot

about how to measure emotion, you know,

you can measure it with facial muscles

and gaze patterns and coloration of the

face and breath patterns and, you know,

different measures of veagal tone uh and

immune system activation and activation

in the gut and of course brain

activation and the voice which is one of

my favorite modalities.

I learned this in some sense from

Darwin.

Darwin's expression of emotion in man

and animals is in my view and we're just

publishing a paper on this uh on

everything that he said about human

emotion. 53 emotions annotated with

eight modalities of expressive behavior.

I wrote it with Darwin scholar Frank

Sulloway who knows everything about

Darwin. And I choose how to study an

emotion

based on what's what's happening out in

our lives in our the phenomena out

there. Right? So if you're studying awe,

you should get people around big trees

or in musical concerts or in museums,

right? Uh if you're I studied

embarrassment early in my career and

modesty and I'm like I got to study

young men teasing each other because we

embarrass each other, you know,

intentionally. Oh my goodness. We have

to hear about that that that work again.

It's become very relevant nowadays

because of the because of the uh

>> I'll just call it what it is. It's not

dreaded. It's the dreadful manosphere,

you know, which people use very broadly,

but I think now it's being, you know,

allocated to the the the worst of the

worst.

>> But then there is this phenomenon among

males where they'll riv each other, you

know, and there's there's a healthy

version of males interacting too, right?

you know uh so we'll get back to that. I

base it on what's the phenomenon of

interest right that that speaks to

humanity and then

>> what are our best measures that we can

go after it

>> these days if you want to measure awe

what's your favorite awe stimulus

>> first stop and thank you for asking

about measurement like it's interesting

like people are like oh you can't study

awe you know you don't know how to

measure it it's it's ineffable it's

mysterious it's spiritual we can measure

awe really well you know the

vocalization Oh, you know the facial

expression uh activation part parts of

the brain are deactivated

uh veagal tone the goosebumps is a good

uh part of the awe response as we

started to study awe. We did two things

and one is typical west, you know,

science which is get your most cool awe

videos, show them to people, you know,

and I had some mis missteps in this

science. I had a woman who was an honor

student at Berkeley who was coming back

from Burning Man and you know, she's

like, I'm going to show engineers

fractal imagery and you know, and the

engineers are like, who is this woman?

I mean, there is the the I've never been

to Burning Man, but there's the the post

Burning Man glow that people come back

with that is for understandable reasons

hard for most people to enter with them.

It's like a kid coming back from summer

camp.

>> There's great visual imagery. You know,

BBC Earth is awesome

>> and it's it uh makes people feel aw slow

motion guys. I don't know if you know

these guys.

>> They film wild things in slow motion

like you know dropping a wine glass and

it's this spectacular photography and

just you know you're like so it opens

you up to

>> We'll put a link to that.

>> I I love super slow-mo.

>> Yeah. Um and that fits our definition

which is like

>> you don't understand what's happening.

It's vast. this mysterious. But what I'm

really proud of, Andrew, is the work we

did out in the field. Right. So, one of

our first studies on the Berkeley campus

that you frequented and got your

master's degree at and headed into

neuroscience was uh in our paleontology

museum. There's a replica of a T-Rex

skeleton

when I was 5 years old and and I learned

about dinosaurs. It changed my life. It

was just in the LA Natural History

Museum. Like, wow. So, we studied people

standing near the T-Rex skeleton and

they became expansive and collective. We

studied people near giant eucalyptus

trees. We studied people at Yeuseite.

You know, Yang by a student in my lab

stopped hundreds of travelers from all

over the world right when you see. And

she said, "How do you feel about

yourself right now?" And they're like,

"I feel small and quiet, but part of

something really large." Right? uh

subsequent to that there are scientists

who are studying mosh pits at concerts

and you know surfers and you know rock

climb I mean it's you know backpackers

and you know we studied one of my

favorite studies later with Stacy Bear

who's a veteran who ran that who's

amazing human being an awe pioneer we

studied people rafting down the American

river you know veterans just like whoa

we've studied people in art museums

carne Hall, you know. So, it's it, you

know, one of the joys is when science,

you know, just in the spirit of your

questions, it's like, well, what should

I really do here, right? I could stay in

the lab, but it's like, no, you know, we

got to go do stuff, you know, that that

uh my dream study was to like have a

participant come in and and engage a

conversation. The other participant is

Shaquille O'Neal, right? And it's like 7

foot2, 350 pounds. You'd be like, whoa.

But couldn't do that. So, uh, so there

it's been fun. It's been a wild ride.

>> And so many thoughts. Uh, first one, um,

I'm lucky I didn't rotate through your

lab because I, uh, would have never

become a neuroscientist, but I'm

unlucky.

>> We're glad you, you missed that

opportunity,

>> but I'm but I'm unlucky because it would

have been so much fun to cuz I, while I

loved the the wet lab, as they call it,

getting into these experiments would

just be incredible. Couple things. uh

the Shaquille O'Neal thing. I um you I

think we're all moved by these uh I

guess they used to call them Make a Wish

Foundation things where a kid who sadly

is dying gets some last wish and it's a

tragic circumstance but then you get to

observe these kids and most importantly

they get to experience something that

they never could have imagined happening

like like a Shaquille O'Neal walking in.

I feel like that's probably happened or

something. And I think what we're

witnessing in those moments has to be

awe like they can't believe that this

human or this event, whatever it is that

they they wish for is happening there.

And so it's sort of layers upon layers

of there's like a grief component for

those of us watching. Well,

>> but a huge aspect of the of just how

touching it is is

>> the fact that like for those moments

they're not thinking about their

mortality and no kid should have to

think about their mortality, right? I

mean, even as I talk about it, it's like

>> Yeah. Profound.

>> Yeah. It's just it's like there's an

overwhelming in the opposite direction,

right? That's an a particularly uh

complicated and and interesting

uh case where you've got two things

colliding, right? Because I feel like

awe is so life affirming.

>> Yeah, it is.

>> And uh anyway, that's just an obs an

observation. But horizons are something

that fascinated me for a long time as a

vision scientist because when we see a

horizon,

>> our visual um angle widens.

>> That's cool.

>> We become more parasympathetic. There's

a whole coming off the accelerator of

the sympathetic nervous system. So, we

relax by virtue of coming off the

>> the focusing component. When we focus in

through a tunnel, we it's quite the

opposite.

>> Nice.

>> But I feel like there's something unique

to this experience of

>> being in a tunnel thinking about Yuseite

or in a bunch of trees or height and

then the horizon opens up.

>> Yeah. there's this transformation of

visual

space and those moments at least for me

are the moments. So I mean I can hike

along a ridge line for a long time like

this is amazing but there's something

distinctly

>> bigger

>> in the experience of going from

confinement

>> to openness.

>> Yeah.

>> It could be brought to the lab. But do

you think that's what's going on in in

Yusede or the Grand Canyon? Do people

who work in Yusede in the Grand Canyon

do they attenuate? They're like, "Oh,

yeah, like another horizon."

>> I don't know. You know, I'm working with

rangers right now, and they I think I

think the big expansive forms of awe

that those places provide is attenuated,

but they're still finding it uh in

subtler ways.

>> Yeah, that's really interesting. And you

know, it's it is interesting. I was um

I've been privileged to know Pete Doctor

at Pixar for 15 years and worked on some

of his films, Inside Out and Inside Out

2. And so,

>> you played a big role in that. Yeah. And

through this science of emotion and I

was like you in one of our conversations

I was like tell me about some techniques

for producing awe in children's films

animated films and and he described

first just what you said like

>> you know the film is narrow like a

certain kind of attention you know sort

of sympathetic fearful checking things

and then it comes it suddenly you see

the vastness of something and it's true

it is all inspiring when you Think about

it neuroscientifically as a very basic

form of awe is shifting from small to

vast in terms of vision and perception

and then it becomes metaphorical right

it's like god I'm thinking about like I

love one of the wonders of life that uh

that makes us feel awe is big ideas and

epiphies and very often people be like

god I've been working so hard at this

you know I'm working on a a paper

something in technology or some part of

my life and then you suddenly realize

It's part of something large, right?

>> One of the musicians that I interviewed,

Yumi Kendall, in the book in the chapter

on musical a said, you know, she's a

chist for the Philadelphia Symphony

said, you know, I I practice for five

hours a day. It's hard, man, and it's

small and narrow and where's my finger?

And then when I'm on stage and I and I

feel the notes go out into this space,

the vastness you're talking about, I

feel like I'm part of history, right?

and I tear up and cry.

>> Um, so I think you're I think I I you

got to send me those papers, Andrew,

because I think it's fundamental, which

is from small to vast.

>> And in fact, we did this really cool

study with Virginia Sturm at UC San

Francisco, brain health, old people go

out on an awok once a week for eight

weeks, 75 years old or older, and all we

asked them to do was to go from small to

vast and how they looked at things. you

know, look at a tree, look at a leaf, go

out to the pattern of leaves. It brought

them all and less physical pain uh over

eight weeks and now we're finding six

years later better brain health. Right.

So small to vast is a big part of it.

>> I'm um struck by the by the awe walk um

and and I know this comes up in your

book and elsewhere and you've done a lot

of research on this. For those listening

um what would an awe look like and um

what are some of the health benefits?

You just mentioned a few that that have

been observed both in the short and the

long term.

>> Yeah, thank you. You know, uh we we are

a walking species. You know, it is just

in our DNA to walk. We meandered from

Africa all the to all the continents. A

lot of people, Rebecca Snet writes about

this, like walking is almost sacred.

It's a kind of consciousness like you're

saying like whoa I'm I'm picking up a

vaster view of what's around me and I uh

decided to just create this allw walk

you know and I did it for a meditation

group the or mindful magazine you just

slow down you a lot of people walk

hundreds of you know tens of millions of

people have regular walks in the United

States uh it's good for you you know so

we just add it all like on your regular

walk once a week in our study. Uh go

somewhere you wouldn't ordinarily go, go

someplace that may surprise you. Uh I

walk around Berkeley a lot and I was

like, well, I'm going to go past the

little playground that my daughters

played at when they were young and just

feel that, you know, Cordes Park.

>> Yeah. With the rock slide and the

tunnel.

>> Exactly.

>> I love that place.

>> Near the rose.

>> And there's a secret. Should we give

this away?

>> Yeah. There's a secret hiking trail

through

it's actually through a private

property's backyard and they allow you

to go through if you are quiet and you

pick up your trash

>> and there's an incredible waterfall and

place to stand at the top. There's a

beam there.

>> You've been there, I'm sure. Where you

can look out over this what is kind of

like a trench of tree. It's it's a total

transformation of one space to the next

if you look for it properly. I'm sure

now it's on the internet. Uh it's in

kind of swinging gate. It's not locked.

And uh

>> so hard to find.

>> And there's a little monastery maybe

nearby. And um and you might and you

might see me a couple years ago, you

would have seen me me and my dog, but

you might see me uh eating a slice of

pizza from the cheeseboard sitting on

that log. I spent a lot of time there.

>> I'm getting goosebumps, Henry. That is

just pure Berkeley. Thank you.

>> So yeah, so in this study, all walk go

on your walk. Find a place that's going

to be a little surprising where it may

make you feel a little bit of childlike

wonder. And it's interesting, no one's

asked me this question, you know, your

observation about small to vast. And we

just said, slow down, deepen your

breathing, sync it up with your your

walking, which you've studied

empirically, the breath, and then um go

from small to vast. You know, look at

clouds. Look at the whole pattern of

clouds. Just slow it down. Look at

trees. Look at the light on the trees

and look at points of light and then

patterns of light. Look at, you know, I

love walking past playgrounds. It's one

of my favorite sources of awe. Listen to

one laugh and then listen to the whole

symphony of laughter of kids, right?

That's all. And they walk through uh

they do that for half an hour. And what

we find in that study is is they become

more vast in their consciousness.

They're more aware in the photographs

that they provided of what's around

them. They feel more kindness over the

eight weeks. They feel more awe over an

8week period. It rises. And then the the

finding that was, you know, important

for people who are elderly is less

physical pain. You know, your body

starts to ache when you're 75, you know,

or earlier. and and awe I think through

the inflammation process you know and

reducing it caused less pain you know

this dovetales with other health

benefits a is good for reduced

inflammation

elevated veagal tone reduced long COVID

symptoms we have people with long COVID

just a minute of awe a day reduced long

COVID symptoms it's good news right and

and there's so much science on it that I

Now I think medical doctors are starting

to think like I'm going to prescribe

nature. I'll prescribe music through

awe, right? Um as a mechanism.

>> I have a lot of thoughts about um this

going from uh small to large.

>> Yeah, I'd love to hear them.

>> But before I I do um I have another

question. I have another question. I

think for a lot of people um including

myself,

>> we assume that awe is this kind of

forgetting of our self.

like getting outside of ourselves.

>> But I'm starting to think based on the

way you're describing it that it's about

being tethered to the larger picture

>> that it's not a a yes, it's getting out

of our heads, quote unquote, but it's

actually very much an embodied

experience. It's very it's almost like

full body.

>> And so now I'll answer your question.

>> This is usually where people start

putting in the comments like

>> you talk too much. Let your your guest

talk. trying folks. He asked me

>> twice.

>> So you ask me a question, I'm going to

answer it. Anyone that knows me, you

know, if I had Okay, so I've thought

about this this relationship between

visual aperture and a time perception

for a long time. This is my my deepest

obsession and it uh gets a little bit

into the book I'm writing, but it but it

>> it's probably reserved for after there's

some experiments and and I

>> um to the fear of my podcast crew, I

actually am considering going back into

the lab to do the this experiment. So,

we know what do we know for certain? We

know for certain that when your visual

aperture is small like looking through a

soda straw view or watch um maker type

aperture or um you're in a let's just

say it could be a pleasant or unpleasant

text communication that's going back and

forth that your perception of time is

different. You're fine slicing those dot

dot dots coming through.

>> Yeah. It's just like this.

>> It feels like an eternity.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's birectional with your let's

just call it level of alertness. It

doesn't even have to be stress but

sympathetic nervous system. Right. So,

if I'm in line at the store and and I I

have someplace to be, my visual aperture

shrinks and then it feels like the

person in front of me is taking forever.

>> Yeah. Cuz you're in these little

migraines.

>> When I'm relaxed, it feels like I'm I'm

slicing time differently. Okay. When we

see a horizon and and our aperture opens

up, as I mentioned, then we relax. But

we also are taking fewer time bit

snapshots. So people might think, "Oh,

fewer, you're in slow motion because the

No, you're it's the opposite, right?

Slow motion is high frame rate." This

thing about video where you can catch

slow motion, you need high frame rate.

>> This is why when people experience uh

like a car crash, they'll often say that

things felt like they were slowing down,

more snapshots.

>> That's cool.

>> So when I think about this relationship

between visual aperture and time, and it

also exists in the auditory domain. So

if I'm listening to a specific

conversation at a party, I'm fine

slicing my perception of auditory space.

Our friend Irv Hafter taught me this.

When I listen to everything and I take

it in as a whole,

>> it's it's a more relaxed experience. But

okay,

>> cool.

>> So a long time ago, I was because I was

experiencing stress, I started reading

about meditation types and different

things and and I I came up with this

meditation. It's but it's not meditation

at all. And some of my listeners will be

familiar with it. I decided to call it,

for lack of a better term, spacetime

bridging. The meditation is very simple.

You um close your eyes and you do three

breaths. Thinking about your skin

inward. So interosception. You open your

eyes and you look at your hand. You take

three breaths,

>> but you're creating a visual tether

between you and your hand. Then you look

some distance, maybe eight or 10 feet

away. You do the same. Then you find a

horizon. And then you think about the

sort of pale blue dot phenomenon like

you're just on a planet. it's floating

in space and like every single one of

these things is a form of meditation or

a meme or or whatever and then you get

right back to yourself. And so what the

the idea here is that it helped me a lot

because I noticed that meditations where

I was completely focused inward made me

more focused inward. Going for a run I

could get outside my head but it and I

started to play with the idea that maybe

it's not about having a small aperture

or a big aperture per se

>> but it's the like every great thing in

biology or psychology. It's the process.

It's not an event. It's the process of

going from one aperture to the next.

>> Cool.

>> And that's kind of what life is about.

>> Yeah. Absolutely. like when this two

shall pass is really about taking a

broader time snapshot like eventually

this is visual

>> which is visual and so there's a long

answer to your question but um

>> this is why it's so important for me to

see a horizon if I can in the morning um

but it's also very important to go

indoors and just like focus on what I'm

working on like there is no place or

event in a day or in life that that's

actually the right way to live like you

can go to big su and if you're lucky

enough to go to Eselin like you're like

this is it but it's only it because you

came from your office in my opinion

>> and then you go back again

>> you figure this out like you the title

of this paper for which you're the

senior author is a balanced mind all

fosters equinimity via temporal

distancing

>> so it's so it's about time not about

space

>> it is that's fascinating

>> so that's that's how I think about this

now maybe you can tell us about this

paper because I'm getting embarrassed

that I've been going way too This is why

we're in conversation, Andrew, which is,

you know, you've studied the visual

system and and uh we need more of that

knowledge in the science of awe. And I

will just make one parenthetical note,

which is I was interviewing Matias

Tonopovski who was at Berkeley, ran and

then went to the Philadelphia Symphony

and was a music director there and he

said I was like and he was he studies

the great and he's a conductor of

symphonies and I was like what's the

secret? Music's hard to understand

scientifically. It is complicated. I was

like, "What's the why awe and music? Why

do we cry? Why do we get goosebumps? Why

do I mean profound?" And he's like,

"Time.

>> It's all about what it does to our sense

of time." And so I think there's a

hypothesis there to explore what awe

does to the self. And I'm putting

together a couple of your comments is

and Jane Goodall got it most right. and

and it's you know it's so great to study

things with science and then you see

someone you really re revere

say something and she was she felt that

chimpanzees feel awe I do too believe

that so comp it's a controversial

>> issue uh chimps show and France Dval

alerted me to this who recently passed

away and I just want to pay reverence to

him or homage to him um the great

pimeathologist so he said you got to

look at Jane Goodall and writing about

chimps and the waterfall display they

show when they are around vast nature.

They sit quietly like around rivers like

that waterfall in Berkeley. They they

look at things, they get goosebumps,

they touch things like we would out in

nature. Uh they rock uh and they Jane

Goodall said why wouldn't they feel awe?

uh or be the beginnings of spirituality

which is really being amazed at things

outside of the self. So with awe we we

have a sense of self interception and

the like and then we connect to vast

things out there and that's what our

research documented as kind of a central

mechanism of awe or transformation is

like when you're at euseity or when you

are standing next to that T-Rex skeleton

or when you've you know when you've

thought about the passage of time that

happens with life right and there new

meditations around that you're like,

"Wow, I am part of something vast. I'm

part of evolution. I'm part of nature.

I'm part of an ecosystem." Uh, and it

changes your whole mind, right? It

changes the neurohysiology of the mind.

default mode network starts to quiet

down, activates veagal tone, and you do

feel

like you're tethered, as you said, to

like music or a culture or political

movement or the team you love, right?

And it's transcendent. Um, and if you

look at where we are today, we need more

of that. You know, we need to to get our

young people to be connecting to big

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you know,

>> we we've had Kristoff Caulk on this uh

podcast talking about consciousness, you

know, incredible neuroscientist and

really thinker. I mean, I've watched his

career evolve over the years and and

he's continued to evolve his concepts of

how to think about consciousness and um

and

>> you know, we'll hear nowadays about, oh,

like maybe consciousness is outside the

brain.

I think if nothing else, our brains are

important components in it. Maybe not. I

don't know. I don't want to do the

experiment on myself to find out. Like

if I was disbibrated or something, which

basically means having your cortex

remove folks. Sorry for the nerd speak.

But

>> the idea is connecting through time like

in our own lives is a very unique form

of awe. So like if I hear a song and it

reminds me when I was like 15 and then

all of a sudden all the the the ma as I

call it like the magic library come

that's how the brain works right it's

like it's like a Harry Potter like you

take out a book you see a subject and

then all of a sudden the library the

books around it change and so I'm

thinking about the time we did this and

the time we did that and everyone has

these notions but it's very much linked

to them.

>> That's one form of linking up through

time.

>> Well put. And then there's this other

one where you feel something with

someone else.

You know you're connected in that

moment, but there's this idea, forgive

me for getting squishy on here, but

there's this idea that maybe your past,

present, and future is connected to

their past and present and future. And

then you if you let yourself go there,

no drugs required.

>> If you let yourself go there, you're

like, "Oh, we're part of this together."

and that we're sort of moving more now

as as a as a a conscious fleet than as

individuals. I think that's a very real

experience even for people that are like

very resistant to kind of the like even

the language of of collective

consciousness and things like that. And

I think concerts are where we generally

feel that

>> because we're it requires a sort of

>> shared perceptual experience or

emotional experience.

>> Y

>> and so when you say getting young people

connected that way

>> Yeah. It's very different than like node

to node. It's it's sort of like it's an

openness that comes first you have to

connect to your your past, present, and

future and then you're kind of open to

it. I feel like then that that window

opens and then if there's one person

there or a thousand people standing

there like it's on.

>> Yeah. But if not, and you're just in

your like your experience, you're the

person at the party wondering whether or

not um you have something between your

teeth, which is the lamest way to be at

a party, but we've all been there,

right? Anyway, I'm getting a little

outside the box here, but what are your

thoughts? What are your thoughts about

individual

>> awe experiences like on the awe walk

>> versus a couple on an awok versus

connecting to a whole mess of people,

some of whom you've never met? I mean

you've highlighted you know this this

temporal this dynamic that you're

pointing to u with respect to awe and

the experience of awe and we're so

limited in how we measure experience and

I uh I think you're right I think that

you know your first sense of like one of

the most awesome qualities of awe is

connecting in your mind through the

layers of consciousness and experience

that shifts out of the micro to this

expansive narrative about your mind,

right? And so I grew up around the UCLA

campus because my mom got her PhD there

at UCLA at UCLA in the late 60s and

there were eucalyptus trees and and then

I went to Northern California where

there were not as many eucalyptus trees

and I first day I was at UC Santa

Barbara as an undergrad. I smelled the

eucalyptus and I it was awe. It was just

like ah all of these experiences through

the alactory process.

>> Yeah. I was aruck by that smell, right?

And that's through the connecting

through time. I am very persuaded by the

new literature on brain synchronization.

Uh that we are and I talk about this a

bit in awe and and there's just new

science coming out. We're always syncing

up with other people. You know, when a

nine-month-old listens to music, they

are syncing up to the sounds and rhythms

of their cultures music and they're

synced up physiologically with whomever

is in their midst. when we go to a

concert or we watch a sporting event,

you know, if you're if you like sports,

your heart rate is sinking up, your

brains are synchronizing that it's and

and that in some sense is the

materialistic account of collective

consciousness. We're all sharing brain

patterns and awareness. Um, and I think

that it's it's part of some of our

deepest forms of awe, you know, and

music now, the current science of music

is like it is very hard to get people to

think collectively in the same way. You

know, when you teach a classroom, it's

impossible. But music does it within

milliseconds, right? When you talk to

people who've been to Taylor Swift shows

who are Swifties,

it's serious, right?

>> They are instantly

bonded. That's that's the

>> united in like a moral cause almost or

identity cause. So that's profound.

That's very hard work to do. And when

Jonathan Height and I wrote about awe

early in our careers,

um, you know, we were like, we need

these emotions to make us be part of

collectives because we are a very

collective species. It was one of our

signature strengths is to fold into

groups and to cooperate and share. It's

hard work. It's vulnerable to

exploitation.

And awe is one of the fastest pathways

through as through what you're talking

about through physical dancing together,

chanting together, sporting events

together, what Emil Durkheim called

collective effrovescence, right? Music,

just sinkering, syncing up with each

other, feeling like we're part of

this vast group, sharing a sense of

humanity, a sense that we all suffer in

the same way or exalt in the same way.

And it's profound. You know, I don't

think we'll ever get this with science,

but I love, you know, you know, I've had

all these conversations about awe and

and musical awe. I'm like, when's a

time, and I could ask you this question,

when

being at a concert has changed your

life?

>> Oh, I mean, they're some of the most

important, not just memorable, but

important experiences of my entire life.

>> So, tell me about one or two. My sister

listened to The Grateful Dead and Cat

Stevens and all that kind of stuff. And

from the first time I heard, people will

immediately think bullet bullet belts

and mohawks, but I was a punk rock kid.

I mean, I'll never forget like uh my

friend who's now well known in the

skateboard community, Jim Thibo.

>> I know Jim.

>> You know Jim? He's a close friend of

mine.

>> I text with Jim.

>> Do you? I texted with him this morning.

We text each other every morning. The

great Jim Thibo. He basically runs

skateboard. He's the dean of

skateboarding. quiet.

>> Good friends with Tommy Guerrero.

>> Good friends with Tommy Guerrero. Uh Jim

gave me my first cup of black coffee. He

was the person who inspired me to uh to

start journaling when I was 14. I I was

put on out of sympathy onto uh Thunder

Trucks and he at the time he was around

the the factory which at that time was

over in Third Street where all the uh

Hunter Point um on Yuseite. But anyway,

Jim gave me a tape cuz back then it was

tapes of a band called Crimp Shrine

which is from Berkeley.

>> Um and uh they were on Lookout Records

which eventually were first releases of

Green Day. I wasn't so much forgive me I

like those guys. Um I know some of them

but I was super I heard that tape was

like this is amazing. Like this is

amazing. Like I've never heard anything

quite like it. Yeah. It was super raw.

It was um and then I I was like I need

more of this. It was like it was like a

drug. I was like I need more of this

whatever this is.

>> And so he gave me a Stiff Little Fingers

tape and that was just it. And then it

was Stiff Little Fingers,

>> Operation Ivy, Rancid. I mean

>> I could easily like do a whole literally

a thesis on that whole kind of era and

genre of punk rock. I'm a huge Joe

Strummer fan. Yeah. um messeros and uh

>> biggest ransom fan there ever was. I'm

blessed to be good friends with Tim

Armstrong these days, but I only met him

later in life and that still freaks me

out because we're close friends.

>> But whenever I see him, it's still I'm

like that's Tim Armstrong because

there's the for talk about time travel.

That's the 14 15year-old version of me.

Those guys are a bit older. They were

like gods in the Bay Area for our scene,

you know, and then when they made it,

you know, and they're just still so

good. Yeah.

>> The show that changed everything for me

was this would be somewhere between 93

and 94.

Uh a little club. It was either called

the stage house or the stage coach in

Santa Barbara that was near the railroad

tracks downtown. And it was um Rancid

playing with Sick of It All which was a

East Coast hardcore band which

>> you know and and my now good friend Toby

Moors was there and I remember going

there and being kind of scared. I I mean

I I'm kind of like my way around. Um it

was just like those guys were older. It

was it had a kind of violent feel. Yeah.

>> They were from Albany and West Oakland

and some of some of some of there was an

edge there and I remember thinking this

is exciting.

>> I feel very much a part of this. I love

the music. I know every lyric

>> and I'm a little bit frightened and I

love it. And I think it was just, you

know, the I just got the adrenaline back

and there's a little bit of you don't

know what it is going to happen and it

feels a little dangerous, but it's

mostly benevolent and um it's an

irreplaceable feeling and and I think

about sometime uh I think about a lot of

the time.

>> Yeah. And you know, thank you. And I you

know when I was writing this book on awe

some forms of awe you know there are

eight wonders that give us awe you know

some are you kind of understand them

nature is pretty straightforward

spirituality medit meditation you know

and music and your description of it

exactly exactly captures

how rich it is and complicated which is

there is something about that sound and

the acoustic patterns patterns that come

through your eardrums and head into your

auditory cortex and you give it meaning

and suddenly you're remembering things

and bonding with people and insta

friends like you said

for life you know brothers and sisters

almost that and you're like this is what

life's about and Susan Langanger uh a

philosopher really got it right she's

like music is this tonal language of

emotion and identity

and awe in music very fitting with our

conversation is when those sounds come

into you, move you and connect you to

something that is what you care about in

life. You know, I remember I grew up I

was very lucky to grow up in Laurel

Canyon in the late 60s and there was

more music there than I almost anywhere

in human history. You know, from you

know the Mamas and Papas and Frank Zappa

and

>> Jim Morrison was out there. Jim Morrison

was living there and the doors and the,

you know, Bob Dylan was passing through

and the birds. It was a joke, you know,

it was everywhere.

>> And

>> that's wild just to think about how much

incredible music was being created.

>> Oh, man. You know, the Beach Boys were,

you know, at

>> I mean, weren't Fleetwood Mac back in in

Topanga?

>> Yeah. I mean, it was like and I was

eight and nine and just to, you know, to

grow up on Bob Dylan and when I saw Bob

the recent film with Timothy Shalom, I

started crying, you I was just like this

is life you know. Yeah. And so that's

why we study awe you know it it and and

you know music is one of our great

technologies.

Uh there's now research showing it's

good for chronic pain. I think it's a

frontier in healthcare and you know just

giving people contemplative meditative

approaches to music and and and awe is

part of the answer. And you and I shared

yet another thing, Andrew. You know,

when I uh grew up in the foothills of

the Sierra as a teenager,

Ted Nan and you know, was poor, you

know, area, Ted Nan, AC/DC, and that's

all fine. And when I first heard the Sex

Pistols in I was lucky to be in England

when Never Mind the Bollocks came out

and I was in a working class fighting

town and I heard that I was like that's

it. And then that led me to Iggy Pop

who's one of my moral heroes. So you

know he's really into Chiong apparently.

I heard him like years ago on the radio

and and someone was asking him like how

does he stay in such good shape and he's

just tons of chiong breathing.

>> Yeah.

>> Wild wild. You know, it's interesting

because a lot of music has lyrics and a

lot doesn't

>> but there's something that feels kind of

um divorced from language about the

experience that we're talking about even

though there's lyrics tied in there. And

and what brings that to mind is there's

a a really good book, one that I like

anyway, um called A Fighter's Heart by a

guy named Sam Sheridan. His wife

actually wrote that movie Monster with

Charlies Thuron, I think is the actress

that played her. And um

>> and I don't know Sam, but but there's

this description of all these different

martial arts forms and he explores them

all and

>> um there's this great line in there

because I've done a little bit of boxing

um and and sparred a bit. I don't

recommend as a neuroscientist. How can I

recommend it? Right. Get hit. Well, I

was and that I was actually in my 30s,

but anyway, I was working some stuff

out, but I do not recommend uh the

sport. Yeah, the training. Yeah. But you

don't want to get hit in the head. Not

good for your brain whatsoever. But he

talks about how um fighting with

someone, sparring or fighting with

someone is uh

>> he said it's like a

>> it's one of the most bonding experiences

that you'll ever have because you're in

this primitive non-language state.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, he actually likens it to a one

night stand. He says something like,

"Oh, you know, you're sharing bodily

fluids with somebody that you barely

know, but you you feel connected, you

know." So, I don't know if that's the

best. It's certainly not the most

politically correct uh way to put it,

but but I understand what he's talking

about, right? You're you're in this

moment of you're both vulnerable.

>> Yeah.

>> In the case of the fighting, you're both

vulnerable. You're trying to hurt each

other.

>> You're also obeying some rules, right?

It's not not anything goes. And he talks

about how it transcends language.

>> Yeah.

>> And that creates a forever bond.

>> And it's true. Yeah. Right. I didn't do

a ton of sparring, but you have a

respect. Yep.

>> You went through something hard

together, even if it's only three three

minute rounds.

>> Like that's a it's real, but it's

separate from language. And earlier we

were talking about the exper the

experience of emotion as this kind of

triad of the feeling, the motor

component to it

>> and language. But I do think that maybe

the language piece can go.

>> I'm with you in some sense. Darwin wrote

about the motor components got a lot of

it right. William James was about the

body you know and the physiology and you

know language is what we rely on as

social scientists but it I think it's as

William James said when he tried to

describe his experience of transcendence

uh when he took laughing gas and it led

him down the path to understand

spirituality. He's like words are

tattered fragments. They they barely

touch the real thing. Um, yeah. And and

I just want to dwell for a moment, you

know, part of awe and I learned this

like talking to veterans, you know, and

I I did work with Stacy Bearer and we

did this Sierra Club research getting

veterans out on the rivers and he's one

of my heroes in the book of getting tens

of thousands of veterans to find their

awe in nature, you know, and these are

guys who've lost limbs and they're rock

climbing, you know, and it's just like

like there's a lot of awe when you're

right at the edge of life and there's

violence. violence and and there's a lot

of horror, carnage, etc., but there's

awe. Uh, and I love your idea and and I

think any teacher of of the martial arts

would say that's the point is that we

can transcend death or or violence by

martial arts by performing them and and

uh and putting them into uh a

contemplative form for the body. One of

my favorite movies, if not my favorite

movie, is Raging Bull, man. And Martin

Scorsesei, like Jake Lamada and Sugar

Ray have these epic battles and they

look at each other, you know, one of the

great scenes and they're just like,

we're united. This is we're way beyond

the fight, you know? I think you're

right. I think it's part of this

transcendent moment that of people

crashing into each other. Mosh pits

>> are one of my favorite objects of study

in awe and mosh pits have a law a set of

laws to them.

>> Yeah. People have studied like the sort

of the physics of

>> Yeah. No, it's like and you think you're

crash and you are you're bruising

yourself, you know, but there's

something transcendent there about what

we find. I could be wrong, but I think

um Raging Bull, I think that the

soundtrack was Clash inspired. There's

something about it in the documentary,

which I highly recommend, uh called The

Future Is Unwritten, which is the Joe

Strummer thing where some there's some

link up between the Clash. I think

Scorsese says, you know, the Clash

inspired the soundtrack to Raging Bull

or something like that. Really? Anyway,

he's a big Clash fan. So, um or Yeah.

>> All right, Andrew, I get to ask you one

more question.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So, why is Joe Strummer a person of

moral beauty to you? One of the sources

of awe is we're amazed by people's

courage and strength and kindness and

justice. So why Joe Strummer

man? All right, I'm going to try and

keep this brief. Um

I mean just to give you a sense of how

what an impact he's had on me. I mean

I've always worn these button-down black

shirts even before I was public facing.

Um cuz I saw him do a show um Mascalero

show. I wasn't there, but he and by the

way, Joe Strummer and the Meascaleros I

actually think is better than the Clash.

>> Clash was a short run. It was only five

years.

>> Yeah.

>> Only five years pretty much. And then

they're done. So 101, Clash, and then

and then he came back with the Muscalos

and just incredible. I mean, they're

masterpieces.

>> Yeah.

>> Produced in part by my friend Tim

Armstrong. He went Hellcat Records. He

went to a small label. Um he also sang

songs with Johnny Cash for where with

Rick Rubin. actually know the story of

that because I'm friends with Rick and I

insisted on him telling me the story. So

sometime I tell you that but I mean

masterpieces late in life and there was

a show that that Strummer played where

he was wearing his black button-down

soaking in sweat like soaked in sweat

>> and he just wouldn't take the thing off.

I think he might have rolled up like one

cuff and I was like that's punk as [ __ ]

I was like that guy is so rad. And he

was in he died at 50 where the I'm 50

now. Died at 50. Yeah, I go see the

mural of him right off um it's right off

Tommpkins Square Park uh in Alphabet

City every time I'm in New York. Just go

like see it. The Aviator says future is

unwritten. You can go there, pay your

respects. I've talked to Rick about this

a lot. Like what was it about him?

>> Yeah,

>> because they were close friends. I never

met Strummer,

>> but I think there's three reasons. one

is um he had that Bob Dylan like ability

to write lyrics that you're not

especially with mealos where you're not

really sure what the song's about but it

makes sense not just because it's

beautiful but you feel like he's tapping

into something more fundamental than

what the lyrics are actually saying

>> beyond language talk a great song um for

instance would be like on the road to

rock and roll like it that could be

about being on tour or something but it

transcends something obvious Nice.

>> The other thing is is the way he he uh

used his breath was um like there was a

his inonation is like unparalleled.

>> Yeah.

>> And then Rick was the one who really

helped me understand cuz during the

summer I go hang out with Rick whenever

I can and winter too. Um and we watch

documentaries including Clash

documentaries and I asked him I was like

what was it like? Why does he have this

thing? because he says these incredible

things, you know, he would say things

like, you know, you got to bring

humanity back into the center of the and

those are really beautiful quotes, but

like a lot of people will give beautiful

quotes.

>> And Rick in very Rick Rubin style said

everything he said, he brought his whole

life experience into those statements.

And I was like, just the statements like

the quotes, you know, like the, you

know, we got to bring the humanity back

into the room. And he goes, no,

everything he said,

>> it was like you got the sense that he

was bringing all of himself to it,

>> even if he was being kind of quiet.

>> That's cool.

>> And I go, okay, so this is clearly on a

plane of understanding that I can't put

language to, right? What does that even

mean?

>> That's like half the things Rick says.

It's like a riddle mixed up in a poem,

you know, put out there as, you know, as

like a as a principle, and you're just

like, "What the hell does that mean?"

But but it feels true.

>> And I think that, you know, and and

Rick's superpower is that Rick

>> knows what a true feeling feels like.

>> And he knows what a false feeling feels

like and he's only interested in truths.

Period. And that's the challenge of the

science that I'm part of is exactly

that. It's like there are all these

layers of meaning and representation and

you know and we try to figure out true

moments of awe with all of our measures

and and it is this like it's all coming

together as a uh a package that tells us

it's happened. So we can think about

things that promote awe. The awe walk,

going small to large aperture, maybe

back again, you know, like I guess we

shouldn't assume that it's a

unidirectional, you know, coming back

into our home after something big is

there's nothing like that, right? The

dog, the kids, the

>> the spouse, the whatever, you know, like

those little the plants, you know, the

the you know, so it runs both ways. It's

no fun. But we should probably talk

about some of the inhibitors of awe

because as I step back from what we're

talking about today and I think okay

language

it can be part of it but it can also in

uh molecular biology or genetics we call

it a dominant negative. It's like a gene

that basically suppresses a set of

functions a ton of

>> stuff. There's a joke around molecular

labs in neuroscience labs that you'd be

like that person's a dominant negative

you know

>> I now have a new phrase I can use.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to be called

a dominant negative. I call people that

in my head a lot online. I go, "Oh man,

that person's dominant negative. They're

not contributing to the greater good."

They're just like,

>> so there's, you know, language can be

that um or be neutral or be positive,

but can definitely be that. And then

there's something about being

overidentified with self, you know. I so

on the recommendation of Tim Armstrong,

someone you wouldn't associate with the

Grateful Dead, he was like, "You got to

listen to The Grateful Dead." And I was

like, "What?" And what this Tim the Tim

Armstrong transplants, Rancid, Operation

Ivy, telling me I should listen to The

Grateful Dead. He's a big He's a huge

music fan of all sorts of things.

>> I said, "Why?"

>> And he said, "Uh,"

he said, "they're punk rockers." And I

said, "What are you talking about?" out

and he said he said yeah they they

played a different show every night.

That's how they're I'm not going to keep

doing his I can do a pretty decent Tim

for that. Uh but apparently their the

the people that followed them that was a

big part of it. It was all all all new,

right?

>> Every show was unique.

>> Started getting really into listening to

the Grateful Dead in the last couple

years. And then I started listening to

>> documentaries, biographies of them. And

there's this amazing moment in one of

them, I can't remember which, where

somebody says, "What killed it? What

killed the collective of music?" Like,

that feeling

>> and uh the answer someone gave was

>> cocaine.

>> And then the question was,

>> "Why cocaine?"

>> Y

>> and someone said, "Cuz cocaine's all

about me. It's the me drug." Yeah.

>> So I was like, whoa, I'm a

neuroscientist, so I can tack that to

you're talking about dopamine and

adrenaline

>> and it's when dopamine and adrenaline

are elevated that it's a very I mean

amphetamines especially, but it's it

becomes a me thing. Every idea that's

>> mine is the thing that needs to happen.

It's the important thing. If not out

there, it needs to happen. Like that's

the only thing that matters. very

different than cannabis, very different

than psychedelics, very different than

just the sober experience.

>> Word's kind of a downer, but then the

non- intoxicated experience of just

being with the music, no substances.

>> So, I'd love your thoughts on how

certain chemical states and but more

broadly how meanness, self-interested

states are a dominant negative for a

entrance into that question I've ever

encountered. You know, it's amazing,

Andrew. You know, I grew up for three

years, formative years in Laurel Canyon,

68 to 70, and then we moved to the

foothills of the Sierras in Northern

California, and it was peak Laurel

Canyon, Joanie Mitchell and the Birds

and the Beach Boys, and you know, it was

just jealous.

>> Yeah,

>> envious in a positive way. when my

brother passed away and he it was my

brother of awe you know 14 months

younger and I was in this reflective

period I started reading a lot about

Laurel Canyon and they made the same

point which is kind of things shifted

after we you know in the early 70s and

the historian said it's cocaine that it

moved from you know

marijuana and mushrooms and psychedelics

a bit but really you know people playing

music you know Jonie Mitchell or Graham

Nash or whomever it is and then suddenly

cocaine comes and the the whole spirit

changed. Yeah. I think the great enemy

of awe is meanness is what Ralph Aldo

Emerson who was one of our great writers

of awe. You know he has this moment out

in nature cold day in Massachusetts sees

this forest and he you know he's like

standing on the bare ground my head

bathed by lie there and uplifted into

infinite space. There's that uplift that

you described earlier of awe. uh all

mean egotism vanishes

and that's all you know awe quiets the

self and when you look at where we are

you know gene twangi you know

longitudinal data we're more

self-focused you know we're taking a

quarter of the pictures that we take are

of the self it's a it's preposterous

>> it's pretty crazy

>> it's half of the photos we take are of

the self or the self with another person

or Another thing it's perverse you know

uh the world has become more

narcissistic. We're led by narcissists.

It's been you know it's just taken as a

default and it's not a default. It's a

it's a corruption of of our minds

because the mind, as you described

earlier, is very good at looking at

other people, at making eye contact, at

seeing their beauty, at hearing their

words, at looking at collectives,

discerning patterns of nature,

collectives, and all of that works

against awe, right? That you know, if I

uh am focused on myself, I'll feel less

awe. If I uh am worried about my

striving in society or my bottom line in

my bank account, you know, or thinking

about money, it counterveils awe. So,

yeah, I I think, you know, that's why

awe is important for our times. We are

in this for various reasons this period

of too much self-focus. Uh it's costing

young people. It makes them anxious, you

know, and they gota they gota they got

to go dance. They got to hear some

music. They got to share stuff and go

backpacking or whatever it is, you know,

and just to get out of the self.

>> I'd like to take a quick break and

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