Why would the government program American  citizens to murder other American citizens? Well,  

that's the question. So, you have documented  project called MK Ultra and other kind of  

variations of mind control, creating splits  and multiple personalities, couriers and spies,  

manurian candidates, assassinate world leaders.  They used whoever they could get their hands on,  

hypnotizing them, brain electrode implants,  electric shock, creating the super spy. This  

stuff is shocking. The US Army released a list of  120ish different drugs that had been used for mind  

control testing. 1,500 people times 120 different  drugs. It's a lot of people, right? It's a lot of  

people. When you get into the documents, you find  out this guy is connected to this guy, this guy's  

connected to that guy. It's this whole network.  Lee Harvey Oswald, who's the supposed lone gunman,  

probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to  assassinating JFK. Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey  

Oswald, so he probably was an MK Ultra patient  before having shot Lee Harvey Oswald. He doesn't  

remember shooting somebody. Sir Han, Sir Han,  to this day says that he has no recollection of  

having shot RFK. What do you remember about the  shooting if you're willing to talk about that?  

I I was obviously I was there but I don't  remember the exact moment. I don't remember  

pulling my gun. Then you have a guy like McVey  who's an MK Ultra patient. Manson who's an MK  

Ultra patient. These people are committing  horrific acts. You think that my mind is  

like your mind but it isn't. This is really  creepy. I wonder if the same thing happened  

with Epstein. The thing is it's not just some  crazy conspiracy theory. It's actually possible.  

Can I give you my crazy Epstein MK Ultra theory?  Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't. Okay.

Ignition sequence.

How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about  that. Their existence cannot longer be denied.

As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with,  whether they're physicists, intelligence officers,  

people who've worked inside black programs, are  operating at a really impressive level mentally.  

Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human  beings. Often their work takes a toll. And a lot  

of them track their health obsessively. regular  lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that  

most people never look at. Meanwhile, last time  I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe  

like eight biomarkers and they told me I was fine  and sent me home. This massive difference between  

the ordinary, broken, and limited health care  system and what elite people are doing to track  

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to mention American Alchemy to support the show.  I'm here with Dr. Colin Ross, who blew my mind  

with a just a really kind of bombshell crazy book.  It's called uh CIA Doctors. I brought you a copy,  

actually. Thank you. And uh Well, here's my copy.  And um here's your other copy. Yeah. Amazing.  

Well, thanks. I I I'd love a second. Um and I'd  love to hand as many of these out as possible  

to as many people as as you know I can because  as long as it's over a million, I'm good. Okay,  

perfect. Yeah, just give me an affiliate fee. Um,  but I truly um this stuff is shocking. You have  

documented the kind of medical malpractice of  a whole host of uh psychiatrists who are either  

officially or unofficially associated often  with CIA and project called MK Ultra and a lot  

of the derivatives and subcompartments  and other kind of variations of that  

uh mind control largely. Um and it talks about  uh dissociating personalities, creating splits  

in multiple personalities uh so that you can send  couriers and spies, create manurian candidates,  

uh assassinate world leaders. It is mindblowing  and it's jarring to say the least. Well, and the  

thing is so I'll give you background, personal  background a little bit. So I grew up in Canada.  

Uh medical school, psychiatry training, worked  in Canada for a while and then moved here equals  

Texas in '91 to a and my specialty is multiple  personality equals dissociative identity disorder.  

And so, uh, I was in a program there at a hospital  up in Plano and two or three months in, one of the  

patients who had multiple personalities comes up  with this little sheath of papers and all paranoid  

and scared and hands them to me and I don't want  these to take these. And I look at them and I go,  

"Hm, MKL first I've heard of that." That's how I  got into it by this woman handing me this pile of  

papers. Otherwise, wasn't interested. Didn't  know about it. I w I thought the search for  

the manurion candidate was some kind of movie  or something but I wasn't really sure it and  

it is a movie. It's I think 1961 Frank Sinatra  and it discusses the creation of this assassin  

essentially post Korean war that China you know  Manuria is this northeastern part of China. So  

it's and it's based on a book from the 50s. There  you go. So fiction, Hollywood, entertaining,  

end of story. So what I did was I read a couple  of books that existed. There was no published  

like mainstream journal type papers. And then I  was down in uh Northern Virginia for a conference  

in 92. And I corresponded with the CIA, which  was like pre- internet back in the era. And uh  

they gave me an address to come to to read the MK  Ultra Papers. So I'm at the conference hotel. This  

is just a crazy side story in itself. Uh walk out,  get in a taxi, and it turns out the taxi driver is  

telling me his story of he was a police officer in  Afghanistan before he moved to the United States.  

Wonder if this is a coincidence that this guy is  driving me. And then he goes, "Would you like to  

go through the grounds of the Pentagon on the  way?" Whoa, sure. Okay. Um, and then he says,  

"Well, what are you where are you going? What are  you doing?" "Oh, I'm just going to meet with some  

people." Drops me off at this building that it's  very nondescript. You can't tell what it is. And I  

walk in there and I mean, civilian guy has nothing  to do with the military. Uh, and there's a whole  

bunch of military guys in uniform. One sign says  uh secure line DIA only. Another one is secure  

line CIA only. I walk up to the desk. Hi, I'm here  to read some documents. And the guy gives me a  

look like, oh, here's one of these guys here. Sign  in and the woman comes down uh after 10 minutes  

maybe. Get in the little jammed elevator with a  bunch of guys in uniform and bunch of guys who  

I don't know who they are. go up to fifth floor,  seventh floor, whatever it was. Get off, walk down  

the corridor, and there's like a submarine door  with she has to key code in. Then another door,  

and then we're in a small office and assign a  piece of paper. walk over here through another one  

of those doors into a room where there there's a  cart with all the 149 MK Ultra projects there and  

15,000 pages of documents. Had to read them all  u which took a while. Thank God you did all this  

um because it's a really comprehensive book and  it it clearly touches kind of close to the metal  

as far as what actually transpired and and and  what went on and uh if you really want to kind  

of understand what these psychiatrists were doing,  how they were communicating with, you know, CIA,  

this book is great. So just real quick for the  audience, you give a little context as to how  

you got into this topic. What's your day job? Uh  psychiatrist. Okay. And you have no affiliation  

with MK Ultra, I assume. Uhuh. Okay. Of course,  people go, "Oh, yeah, that's what he says." But  

I'm just a civilian guy. Okay. Um, so I know lots  about all these documented facts. Yeah. And I have  

this pile of documents, but I don't have any  insider knowledge about stuff currently at all.  

Okay. Which is kind of disappointing in a way.  Yeah. Well, the the trail goes dark in 1975 with  

the Church Commission where all this malfeasants,  you know, in the CIA, not just mind control stuff  

was investigated and there was this kind of large  reform. Let's go back to the very beginning of  

uh cowboy intelligence interventionism in  the human body. So, I want to talk about  

uh you know uh we're talking China 3000 BC. No,  no. In at least in the American context. So,  

um let's talk about the Tuskegee experiment  because that for people who are in their minds  

they're like how could the government ever do  something like this? It's just seems so horrific  

and beyond what they would ever do. I think this  is a really good jumping off point and that's why  

there's a chapter in the book about Tuskegee. So,  one of the skeptical things is you could never do  

all that stuff and keep it secret and if it was  known, it would get shut down. So, Tuskegee,  

which is a town in the southern United States,  um 1932, the the public health service was the  

organizing entity. Uh surgeon general signed  off on it. All these top medical people were  

aware. And I've got a one of the papers I copied  is called side effects of syphilis in the male  

negro is the title of the paper. So g give people  context on just high level what happened cuz  

it's so shocking. They recruited 400 black rural  mostly illiterate guys who had syphilis and then  

prevented them from getting treatment all the way  till it was shut down in 1972 cuz a reporter blew  

a whistle on it. So it was studying the effects  of untreated syphilis and the astounding medical  

discovery was people would get sick and die  earlier. Yeah. Shocker. That's all they learned.  

Shocker. Uh pretty pretty pretty crazy. So you  you have that obviously uh occurring. You have  

early radiation experiments. What you know, how  does radiation interact with the physical body?  

It's all documented 100%. And there's all kinds  of like on the edge things I've heard I suspect,  

but right now we're just 100% documented. So, uh,  Clinton had a report in the late '9s on radiation  

experiments, like pretty thick, couple inches  thick. And in there, it describes a whole bunch  

of stuff. U including uh I think it was seven. HP7  was his name, which means human product 7. Mhm.  

This is guys they did radiation experiments on.  So, and this is in one of the Harvard hospitals  

in Boston. He comes into the ER unconscious  in a coma. They inject him with plutonium and  

he he dies without ever waking up. Not from the  plutonium, just whatever happened with him. So,  

they're just how does it go through his kidneys?  How is it excreted? They're studying that. Jesus  

Christ. So, if the guy arrived in a coma,  I'm guessing he didn't give informed consent,  

right? Okay. So, let's get to MK Ultra or or just  mind control generally. When did the idea of mind  

control cross the minds of American leadership?  What's documented is in the second world war the  

because people have been manipulating and  controlling people forever, right? So just  

making it government organized sophisticated  scientific doctors involved that's at least in  

the second world war. So uh 1941 or two uh all the  intelligence agencies which are kind of scattered  

all over the place in the US were brought under  the umbrella of the office of strategic services  

which is the OSS and then the OSS was disbanded  at the end of the war and then in 1947 the CIA was  

created and a lot of the OSS guys just moved over  there. So um there's a guy named GH Esster Brooks  

who's on the he's a chapter in the book uh Colgate  College upstate New York. He uh published a book  

in 1943 on hypnotism and a paper in 1971 or two in  a magazine describing creating the super spy. Uh,  

and I have copies of his uh, contract with the war  department back in 43 or so. um him corresponding  

with MK Ultra top secret cleared contractors,  inviting them to uh Colgate College, corresponding  

with them, co-publishing with some of them,  um giving talks on the super spy at US Army  

conferences, inviting uh the number two or three  guy and FBI to Colgate College to a conference and  

corresponding back and forth with Jed Ghouver from  30s to 60s I think it was. This is all totally  

documented. So he doesn't describe his methods  very much but he says he gets a susceptible guy.  

This is all in the published material. Uh puts  him through some sort of conditioning which he  

doesn't really describe in any detail. And then  he describes uh which is also in the MK Ultra  

documents. He describes a a hypnotic code word  that's implanted which was the moon is clear.  

So he brings this army guy in or the he assigns  it to the colonel. The colonel brings in this  

army guy gives him a assignment to take some m  care courier materials over to Tokyo and then  

says the moon is clear. Out comes the artificially  created identity created by Esther Brooks. Gives  

him whatever the information is. sends the guy  over to Tokyo. The officer on the far end says,  

"Oh, thanks for the documents. The moon is clear.  The secret message is transmitted. The response is  

implanted." Switch back to the regular guy. He  goes back home. This is explicit clear detail.  

This is described. And then in the um CI created  in 47, bluebird and artichoke were the precursors  

of ember culture which started in 1950. And in  those documents it describes uh experiments where  

they use secretaries and whoever they could get  their hands on, hypnotizing them, getting them to  

do tasks and assignments and then having amnesia  for that. This is all described in great detail.  

So the idea is if you could compartmentalize  a person from an aspect of themselves,  

you can get that compartmentalized aspect to do  whatever you want. And you can create a trigger  

to move somebody from their normal generic  personality into this right kind of you know  

secret courier person. And in the documents it  describes uh words, verbal trigger, touch. In the  

manuran candidate book and movie it's a playing  card. Mhm. So it can be anything that becomes a  

trigger. Yeah. Okay. So you have bluebird, you  have artichoke. Then we got Meltra which then  

runs into the early 60s that's rolled over to MK  search which runs into the early '7s. What is MK?  

Uh there's speculation about that but I don't know  for sure. Some people think it's mind control,  

but y m y k. So you can sound scary in German.  Oh, control. Oh Jesus. Yeah, that's weird. Um,  

and and what were some of the earliest experiments  that even like tipped uh US intel officials off  

that this was even possible? Uh, in the documents  that I have, the GHS Brooks, you know, pitched his  

expertise to the CIA early in the ' 50s. Yeah,  I read this book called um The Controllers by  

Martin Cannon and he talks about Esther Brooks  bragging about this sort of thing. Um so,  

okay. Fascinating. You clearly like to brag. Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah. Um who in the uh American government  

and intel community kind of championed this idea  at the time kind of post World War II that we  

should be experimenting with this? the director of  the CIA signed uh Bluebird into operation in April  

1952, 3 months before the Korean War started in  June. And then the disinformation cover story was,  

oh, we were just reacting to what the Communist  Chinese were doing, but it was already in place  

offensive and defensive before the Korean War  started. So the directors of the CIA were all,  

you know, knew what was going on. the top  guy was Sydney got for MK Ultra uh who's an  

interesting character in and of itself and uh  so he was kind of the organizer main character  

um I forget the year 50 50s something uh there's  a guy in uh Fort Detric in the chemical warfare  

division named Frank Olsen and he was starting  to have little problem with his conscience and  

was kind of maybe going to become a whistle  fullblower. So, Sydney Godly invited him to  

a party somewhere outside the Washington DC area  and he was given a dose of LSD in quentthro lure  

and then he had sort of a bad trip. Uh but that in  itself is a cover story. Uh because the story was  

as a result of the being mentally ill, they didn't  mention the LSD, he jumped out of a hotel window,  

the Statler Hotel, the 10th floor, and died.  But actually um Harold Abronson who's involved  

in Mkeltra was a who's a doctor was involved in  the story and there's a guy named Pierre Lefit  

uh who had like literally like 20 aliases which  are all listed in a book. The last name of one  

of his aliases was H Highell. Alex Hyell was Lee  Harvey Oswald's alias. What? and Lee Harvey Oswald  

and Pier Lefit both worked at the Riley Coffee  Company in the same period 60 to 63. So this is  

all some secret web of something. So you think Lee  Harvey Oswald could have been an MK Ultra patient?  

Very well. Easily could have been. Whoa. Wait, so  just I don't know that he was, but he very easily  

could have been. So let's back up. So Frank Olsen  is working on biological warfare at Fort Dietrich  

as part of MK Naomi. was pushed out of the hotel.  Pushed out of the hotel window. Pierre Lefit by  

Pierre Lefit. I believe uh Frank Olsen's son is  named Eric Olsen and he investigated this and  

realized the window was actually too small for  him to he couldn't have jumped out of this this  

thing. He must have been pushed. The the family  just bought the story. Uh but then they read one  

paragraph in a Rockefeller Commission report.  Mhm. 73 or somewhere in there. uh describing  

exactly what happened to their dad, saying that he  was dosed with LSD. So that's how they got on it,  

got lawyers, and there's a photograph of the  family in the Oval Office of the White House  

with the president giving them the $700,000  compensation check. Jesus Christ. So it was  

all blown wide open. Yeah. And Sydney Gotley on  record, you know, there's a great biography of him  

called Poisoner and Chief, right? And he's known  as kind of almost the US version of Joseph Mangala  

and like just kind of cowboy border science like  you know human subject testing. He was head of the  

technical staff services for the CIA. Technical  services division. Technical services division.  

Sorry. TSD. What was there was also TSS though  I believe. But anyways. Yeah I think it was the  

same thing with a different name. Okay. Okay. So  okay. I want I don't want to let up on this Lee  

Harvey Oswald who's the supposed lone gunman who  now everybody kind of knows probably wasn't the  

lone gunman when it comes to assassinating JFK in  um November of 1963. I I have a document that's  

part of the blueberoke papers I think but one  of the there's multiple programs project offen  

broad mk nom uh there's like five or six of them  all parallel the document is um one intelligence  

officer writing to another intelligence officer  that after 63 no before 63 that Lee Harvey  

Oswald's mother has gotten in contact with the  guy cuz Lee Harvey Oswald's mother is concerned  

that somebody's been impersonating him in Europe.  There's a bunch of suspicious stuff going on. And  

then the other main suspicious thing about the  story is, okay, so Marine Guy defects to Russia  

and then we just let him back in and don't put  him under surveillance or end the story. Nothing  

to see here. Well, then he goes and works at 544  Camp Street in New Orleans, and the guy who owns  

that building is an FBI investigator named Guy  Banister, right? So, that's strange. And I believe  

he was implicated in he Lear Oswald like had the  gun of he almost assassinated somebody six months  

earlier or something, right? But he was such a  lousy shot that he didn't kill the guy. Yeah.  

And and the gun a military guy. Yeah. Walker.  Yeah. Walker. Right. Yeah. There's so much off  

about that whole story. And then he gets a job at  the Texas Book Depository. And the woman who owns  

that or the woman who who he's like living with  is is Ruth Payne, right? And she's very close with  

Mary Bankraftoft who's Alan Dulles's mistress.  Alan Dulles is the director of the CIA. Tied  

in. Yeah. Yeah. So there's so many Ruth Payne is  very tied in. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.  

Yeah. And then the guy who owns the Texas Bird  Depository is a guy named Harold Bird. I don't  

know that. Oh yeah. And he was a I think related  to Richard Bird who did Operation High Jump who's  

headed towards you know um Antarctica and and and  might have ran into like flying saucers. Sort of  

weird lore around that. But Harold Bird won uh  you know some award for the Civil Air Corp from  

Curtis Lame and I believe was the Bird family was  close with LBJ as well and there you know reasons  

to believe that LBJ might have had something  to do with the assassination of JFK. Obviously  

he was a ruthlessly political guy. So that's the  sort of politics conspiracy side of things. It's  

the same thing when you get into the documents  you find out in documented documents. This guy  

is connected to this guy. This guy is connected to  that guy. It's this whole network. It's not just  

two guys in an office running the show. What are  the Let's set the landscape as far as what are the  

modalities they are testing. So clearly hypnotism  is one of them. Um is there like electroshocking,  

right? That's like uh there's all kinds  of stuff. Brain electrode implants. Okay.  

Electric shock. Whole bunch of different drugs.  Uh classical sensor deprivation isolation.  

Mhm. Uh, basically they just kind of like threw  everything at the wall to see what would stick.  

Yeah. It's very I was going to say helter skelter  was probably not a good choice of term for this,  

but so in 75 or six at committee hearings um the  general council for the US Army released a list of  

120ish different drugs that had been used for mind  control testing by the army. and they admitted to  

1,500 LSD subjects. And there's videos of those  online still. And sometimes it seems like they're  

admitting to 4,000. But if we do, 1500 people  times 120 different drugs. It's a lot of people,  

right? It's a lot of people. That's pretty  egregious. What did they discover worked of  

all of those modalities? Were there things that  worked better uh than others? Were there different  

use cases for the different modalities? So  on Manurion candidate, they just poo pooed  

that totally. Yeah. It's not possible. We can't  do that. We never use those people. Yeah. Which  

is just straight up lie. It's just a straight up  lie. And we'll get into some examples that kind  

of prove that that's a straight up lie. Well,  why don't we just get into that? So what what  

um what's a good example of somebody becoming  a Manurion candidate? Well, we uh and Manurian  

candidate is a is a compartmentalized trained  assassin that you could trigger somebody to  

become an assassin. Why are they called Manurion  candidates? So there's another document in the  

uh files there where the CIA officer writing to  another CIA officer says he can he's concerned  

about reports this Korean war stuff that um a  group of GIS going through a zone in Manuria were  

captured and hypnosis was used on them. That's  the plot of the Manuran candidate in CIA documents  

before the book was written or published. It's  not just pulled out of nowhere. My take on all  

this in terms of the politics and the ethics is  the CIA military would be negligent and guilty of  

dereliction of duty if they didn't look into this,  didn't have expertise cuz obviously these kind of  

people are being run at us by terrorists, foreign  intelligence agencies. So, uh, give me some of the  

early psychiatrists that were kind of pioneering  these methods. Uh so again this is all documents  

for sure within MK Ultra which is the same in  other programs. There's kind of three categories  

of projects. There's 149 of them total. Uh a third  of them are just straightforward sort of chemical  

procurement industrial contracts. A third of them  the investigator who's some professor somewhere  

is unwitting. means he doesn't know it's CIA money  because it's funneled through a front organization  

which they called a cutout. And then a third of  them roughly are cleared at top secret. They know  

it's CIA money. So two top secret cleared guys  were Martin or Jolly West. So Martin Or being  

and it says in the documents the purpose of the  project and says the amount of money and so on.  

Um and the year the purpose was studying hypnotic  and dissociative states. So for sure they were  

working on that. Uh and Martin or was aware of  JHester Brooks and back and forth. Um so Jolly  

West is famous for several different things. One  is killing an elephant at Oklahoma City Zoo with  

a dose of LSD. Uh he also was sort of involved in  the UCLA violence project which was when uh Reagan  

was the uh governor. The idea there was to implant  electrodes in prisoners brains and then when  

they're released sex offenders, track them, and if  they go outside the allowed perimeter, send them a  

signal and paralyze them temporarily. And that was  shut down before it got started. But uh Louis Joan  

West was involved in that. He uh interviewed um  Timothy McVey. Really? Oklahoma City bomber. So  

here Oklahoma City bomber. He Louis Jolian West  is over in LA. There's lots of psychiatrists  

everywhere. By random chance they had Louis Jolian  West come and invest interview Timothy McVey. Why  

do you think he interviewed Tim the Oklahoma City  bomber Timothy McVey? Legend has it that in 1943,  

the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's  now known as the Philadelphia experiment,  

and it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared,  and then half the crew got atomically fused into  

the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one  was where they were supposed to be. Talk about  

a breakdown in communication. And you know who  was leading the whole project? My favorite, the  

mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsen  Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that  

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Quo, no missed calls, no missed customers. Now,  back to the show. McVey, this is all public  

domain. Uh McVey said when they took him to Tinker  Air Force Base, they removed a computer chip  

from his buttock. What? This is all This is not  conspiracy theory. This is facts that I got out  

of, you know, public domain. Was he newspapers?  Did he have any criminal background? Where do you  

think he was implanted with this thing? Like was  he at UCLA? Were because Jolly West was obviously  

head of psychiatry at UCLA, right? Was he were  there any connections between him and Jolly before  

the bombing? Not that I know of. But they removed  But it wouldn't have to be him. I mean, it could  

be there's lots of people in the military, right?  They removed a computer chip from his butt. It's  

[ __ ] weird. Which means they know exactly where  he was every minute of every day up to the time  

of the bombing. So the and then you hear things  like Charles Manson, the responsible for the most  

famous murders, the Tate Lab Bianca murders,  Sharon Tate, famous actress at the apex of her  

career, murdered in cold blood while pregnant with  Roman Palansk's uh I don't know, son or daughter,  

but uh and and and and we now know from Tom  O'Neal's amazing book, Chaos, that very amazing  

book, amazing book and just hard-headed journalism  over decades. He started as like this, you know,  

beat reporter like looking into, you know, the it  was like the anniversary of the Manson murders.  

He was just going to do an article and then  he he met Vincent Bugliosce who was the lead  

prosecutor on the case who wrote the book Helter  Skelter and realized, oh my god, this narrative  

is entirely off. It's all cover story. It's all  all cover story and realized that Manson in 1967  

was going in consistently to the hate Ashbury Free  Medical Clinic in uh San Francisco. Oh, you mean  

the one that Louis Jolly and West was at? Exactly.  And Jolly West had an office there. Yeah. Yeah,  

he did. And then you have this like transformation  of this guy from this petty criminal who's being  

caught and released to this like sex god cult  leader musician, you know, in LA who's like  

living with one of the Beach Boys and it's just  this like, you know, day and night sort of thing.  

Um, so well I guess the meta question here is  if you have a guy like Manson who's an MK Ultra  

patient and then you have a guy like McVey who's  an MK Ultra patient. These people are committing  

horrific acts. Why would the government, like the  CIA, like a guy who had top secret clearance for  

the CIA, Jolly West, or any of these people  program uh American citizens to murder other  

American citizens? Well, that's the question. So,  probably because their ethics are a little off,  

number one. Yeah. But we don't know. So, it could  be that Jolly West was just sort of a secondary  

character in the show cuz he's not going to be the  only Manurion candidate creator on the planet. Uh,  

can you create a chain of Manurion  candidates? So, this is really creepy,  

but say what if the psychiatrist themselves is a  manurian candidate and they are doing treatments  

that they're not even aware of to I'd advise not  going to that psychiatrist. I know, but how how  

does anybody know? I mean, you you document all  these people who are cutouts and not even like,  

you know, connected explicitly, and then what  if they're themselves compartmentalized? So,  

as I always say, we know the tiny tip of the  iceberg. The stuff, the whole iceberg is just  

who knows what's going on down there. It's exactly  like the Epstein story, right? Yeah. So, we know  

he exists. We know he's a trafficker. We know  he supposedly killed himself. He either killed  

himself or was murdered in jail. Uh who else been  prosecuted? Him and his girlfriend. That's it in  

the United States. Just just his girlfriend. Who's  gotten the heat? Now Prince Andrew. Yeah. Some  

expendable foreign guy. Yeah. None of the people  who actually committed the crimes and then all the  

people in the documents all happened to not go to  the not commit any crimes. You know, most of them  

say we didn't go to the island. It's preposterous.  It's absolutely preposterous. Okay. I have a crazy  

question about him. Do you think do you think he  was an MK Ultra patient? I have no idea. But the  

thing is it's not just like some crazy conspiracy  theory. It's actually realistically possible that  

any and a whole bunch of these guys were Can I Can  I give you my crazy Epstein MK Ultra theory? Oh,  

you'll be in trouble if you don't. Okay. Um, so  Manson, if you look at who he modeled his life off  

of, it was um, Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert  Heinline, this like 1968 or nine bestseller sci-fi  

book. Uh, I believe he um calls his son, Don  Michael Valentine, who is like the lead character  

in the book. And he even calls his parole officer,  a guy named Roger Smith. I believe he calls him  

Jubal. Jubal Harshaw was this protector character  in this book. Manson, I sent you an email. I don't  

know if you saw it. Oh, I don't. You know, I don't  think I did. The TV show FBI. Oh, you did? Yeah.  

What was this again? So the it's a fiction about  FBI and they're always getting the bad guys and  

there's the woman who's sort of like the head, but  the actual operational guy who's always, you know,  

checking stuff and looking on the screen  and assigning people to go here and there,  

his name is Jubel Valentine. Well, there you go. A  mashup of two names in Stranger of a Strange Land.  

It's not random. That's not random. Clearly. So  whether it's just some screenwriter with a sense  

of humor who read that kind of stuff or Well, this  is where it gets really creepy. I'm like, are do  

you think that LSD was given to Manson or he was  dosed up made to be extremely impressionable? We  

know that on record at the time there's a program  called Operation Midnight Climax where actually  

it's a sub project within Multra. Operation  Midnight Climax is sort of an informal name for  

it, but it existed. So, it existed and they were  dosing up hippies off the street in Hate Ashbury,  

putting them behind a, you know, a one-way mirror  and then viewing them, you know, with prostitutes  

and stuff, how they'd behave. And so, here's a  wrinkle on that story. So, that was mostly in San  

Francisco, a little bit in New York. Um, the guy  who was sort of running that was a former whatever  

the DEA was called before, can't remember the name  of it before it was called the DEA. So, he was,  

you know, involved in various things that had to  do with intelligence. So, he was running it. Um,  

and he's quoted as saying, his name was uh, George  White, something along the lines of, "Where else  

could a good American boy rape, murder, and kill  with impunity?" Jesus Christ. That's what he said  

in public. That was the head of the equivalent  of the DEA at the time, the drug enforcement  

agency. He was the head of Operation Midnight  Climax. I know. But then he became the head of  

the DEA. Yeah. It's not a low-level. So none  of these guys, the same with the psychiatrist,  

they're not just some, you know, off-the-g grid  person in a basement somewhere. These are top  

psychiatrists, top government people, top secret  cleared. So creepy. Okay, so here's my question.  

Okay. If they're doing stuff like that, um, they  what I think is if you have a guy who's illiterate  

who's modeling his life off the book, he can't  read the book, but the book becomes the template  

for his life. Stranger in a strange land, Charles  Manson. He was probably read the book while dosed  

up on LSD or ketamine or something. Could be. I  don't know. Speculating. But if that's the case,  

I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein  because Epstein started at Dalton school, which  

was, you know, prep school in New York for no  apparent reason. Wasn't qualified to work there.  

You jumped from nowhere to 300 million in a blink.  Yeah. Well, that so that was Dalton and then Bear  

Stern and all the other stuff. But even Dalton,  you know, I think he was engaging in underage,  

you know, relations with his students at the  time, right? Was unqualified for that job. was  

like this street kid and gets the job there. Um,  I believe the guy who gives him a job is a guy  

named Donald Bar. And Donald Bar was a former  highly cleared Navy guy and he wrote a book  

called Space Relations. And it's all about using  underage sex as comprom. It's about this like,  

you know, this guy that is, you know, uh,  going to another planet and then ends up being  

groomed by this other woman and and the the woman  almost, it could be like Gain or like, you know,  

like one of his handlers or something. So, you  have another case where it's like his life seemed  

to be modeled off the book, right? And so I wonder  if there was some sort of like weird screening of,  

you know, or made, you know, he was made to be  very impressionable and then he was, you know,  

this this book was somehow the model or template  for his life. Here's where it gets even crazier.  

Uh Donald Bar's son is William Bar. William  Bar was the attorney general under Trump and  

under Bush 41. under Trump when Epstein got  arrested and as the acting attorney general,  

he went and visited uh Epstein's jail cell and and  met with uh uh his cellmate, this guy Stone Reyes,  

who mysteriously died 6 months later. What acting  attorney general ever visits the the jail cell of,  

you know, a random person who's committed a  crime? That's crazy. But here's where it gets  

crazier. Bill Bar was the CIA intern in 1974, 1975  around the church committee. He was a Senate CIA  

intern. Pull it. So, as far as like obstructing  justice and possibly deleting records, you know,  

around MK Ultra, like that would be the perfect  place to do it. The story on MK Ultra records is  

uh they were all destroyed by Richard Helms and  Sydney Gotautle. Uh but they somehow found seven  

boxes of documents in a storage facility  somewhere. And then those are the documents  

that got released eventually. So that's called a  limited hangout. That's actually the CIA's term,  

which is you let a little bit of information  out, cover up the greater information. It's  

a standard operating strategy. So, I wonder if  Bill Barr was like covering up for his dad's,  

you know, horrible. This is crazy speculation.  I'm speculating. I have no idea. But it's very  

it's weird fact pattern. Have you ever heard of  a woman named Patty Hurst? William Randph Hurst's  

daughter who was kidnapped by the Limb Simbanese  Liberation Army. Tell me this story. So William  

Randers for people that don't know is the model  for Orson Wells Citizen Canain. He is the premier  

uh kind of publisher of you know the biggest  newspapers San Francisco Chronicle and stuff  

in you know in the US and specifically California  right this connects into Jim Jones and Jonestown  

as well. Okay. So uh Patty Hurst's boyfriend whose  name I just forget now. Um he was observed and it  

was reported in public domain on site at the  people's temple location in Yukaya, California  

before they moved to South America. Then uh  Donald Dreeze uh who was a petty criminal, same  

thing. Couldn't read a book. uh he was transferred  within the prison system to a new location where  

he walked out of the prison into the public. Um,  and then, uh, a psychological warfare expert with  

the army in the Vietnam War came over under cover  of the Black Cultural Association, met with him  

repeatedly, gave him his code name of CINQ 5. Uh,  and then lo and behold, he kidnaps Patty Hurst.

Uh so the story is that the Simbian Liberation  Army came into the apartment of Patty Hurst and  

the boyfriend knocked the boyfriend out. So he's  just an innocent bystander who happened to be  

a Jim Jones 3 months earlier. And then they  take Patty Hurst and they uh terrorize her,  

sensory deprivation, sensory isolation, hold her  in a closet for weeks on end. She now has a new  

identity, Tanya, who participates in a bank  robbery. Jesus. She's convicted. And then at  

trial, the people testifying that she's been mind  controlled include Louis Jolian West. It just like  

everything's so interwoven and interconnected.  So weird. And then she gets pardoned by can't  

remember which president. No, Jolly West is like  this bizarre figure who he's like Forest Gump or  

something. He pops up in all these places  like hiding the truth. Like he, you know,  

he saw Jack Ruby. So Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey  Oswald and he sees him in his cell, right, for  

was it 24 hours or something and then he comes out  does a press conference says Jack Ruby's gone gone  

crazy. And literally that was the breaking point.  Actually, he according to West shot Oswald while  

having an epileptic seizure. What? That's what  that was what he said. Because he didn't remember  

having killed Lear Oswald, right? So, he probably  was an MK Ultra patient before having shot Lear  

Oswald. Who doesn't remember shooting somebody?  Siron, we're just jumping around here. So, that's  

he's claimed amnesia for that. So the all the way  so the guy that killed the supposed but not really  

lone gunman of JFK MK Ultra patient and then the  guy that killed JFK's brother RFK was a you famous  

presidential candidate attorney general under JFK  he was also probably an MK Ultra patient who I  

think is still alive and to to this day does not  says that he has no recollection of having shot  

RFK Robert F. Kennedy. Yep. It's so crazy. One of  the can't remember the title of the book, but one  

of the RFK very wellressearched books, there's  a photograph of the uh Los Angeles County corner  

with a ruler and he's measuring and counting the  bullet entry holes because he knows another person  

got hit, RFK got hit, and there's certain number  of in the door jambs and the walls. Those add up  

to more than the chambers in the supposed lone  shooters gun. I for a fact. That's right. And I  

believe it was the same coroner who saw JFK who  wasn't happy about the treatment of JFK's body  

before he examined it and thought there was some  malfeasants there. And I think it was a lot of  

gunshots specifically from the back in RFK's case.  And yeah, supposed shooters four, five, six feet  

in front. In front. That's right. her hands shot  was close range from behind. That's right. And I  

believe Robert F. Kennedy cuz I think he was like  giving a speech or something. Falls back and grabs  

this guy behind him and falls down on this guy.  That guy was a locked skunk work bodyguard named  

Eugene Thne Caesar. Oh man. And I believe if you  asked Robert F. Kennedy who's obviously now you  

know health and human services secretary right he  will say I think Eugene Thane Caesar that locked  

security guard killed my father he would say that  or he has he would say that he would say that I  

think he believes that and why I'm not doubting  it but why do you think that's what he believes  

you must have said something oh I I believe he  no I'm saying I believe that he has publicly said  

this he's publicly said a 24 year old Palestinian  man named Son Siron shot him with a 22 caliber  

revolver. He was hit three times. Five other  people were wounded as well. Well, I didn't  

first of all I I would dispute that description  of what happened. Okay. Um I don't believe that  

Sir Han's bullets ever hit my father. Oh, he was  shot from behind by somebody who was standing  

behind him with a gun pressed between the two of  him and firing. And that man was almost certainly  

Eugene Fain Cesar who was a security guard who had  been hired the day before. So pretty wild. And I  

think he thinks it was all done at the behest of  this guy Bob Mayhew who was the general counsel  

for Howard Hughes or like the right-hand man for  Howard Hughes, right? And it's all just so spooky.  

You have all these guys who were tied in with the  5412 commission at the time, the sort of inter  

agency coordination group that I think originally  starts out for, you know, if the government if the  

president wants to do some spooky covert action,  it's plausible deniability for him. It's inter  

agency coordination and it turns into this sort of  runaway, you know, deep state faction that just,  

you know, well, is it really runaway or not really  is always a question right there? That's the other  

qu. Yeah, you call it runaway, but maybe it is  always plausible deniability for the president.  

Who knows? I mean, you do have this famous  speech obviously Eisenhower gives, beware of  

the military-industrial complex, and you have to  wonder if he was referring to groups like that.  

But, okay, so we're just we're just knocking them  down as far as sacred cow assassinations, and they  

just all seem to be related to MK Ultra. You know,  one person that people wonder about all the time,  

uh, not in the kind of political realm, but in the  cultural realm, is the icon John Lennon, you know,  

the lead singer of the Beatles, who was this  obviously counterculture hero, was probably viewed  

as a threat, you know, by Jed Hoover and other  people. Well, those guys were definitely unhappy  

about him. That's known. So, so tell me about his  killer and was he possibly an MK Ultra patient?  

Uh, I don't know about who controlled him, but  he was, you know, sort of like a low-level guy  

without a whole ton of money. Took off on a  world tour. What's his name? Um, Mark David  

Chapman. Mark David Chapman. Uh, he was in a psych  hospital in Hawaii for a while. He comes back. Um,  

and there's I can't remember the name of the  biography, but in the biography of him in great  

detail, it describes uh he had a whole bunch of  people inside his head. Robert was the head guy.  

I mean, he had MPD, DID by description for sure,  if that's all accurate. The MPD for the audiences,  

multiple personality disorder, which was renamed  dissociative identity disorder at 94. Did one of  

the personalities was it saying you have to kill  John Lennon? That part's not known. So why do we  

think that he possibly was MK Ultraid and not just  like you know MK, you know, multiple personality  

disorder you might associate with some sort of  generic mental illness or something. Uh maybe  

could be. Don't know for sure. Okay. So hard to  say there. But it's it's not just wild out of  

nowhere theorize it. Uh-huh. It's realistically  possible that he could have been handled. Well,  

is there anything else any other evidence besides  just having multiple personality disorder? Um,  

uh, let's see. What's the, uh, cuz I think those  details, there's so many of them. What's the book  

that was published in the 50s that was a trigger  for him? Oh, uh, Catcher in the Ride. Catcher in  

the Ride. Yeah. Yeah. JD Salinger. Yeah. U, so he  went to a bookstore and got that book. which maybe  

was the trigger before doing the shooting. Oh,  interesting. Like the book triggered. Oh, Jesus.  

Maybe. That is wild. Well, I think Sir Han, Sir  Han, going back to the Robert F. Kennedy thing,  

I believe he was writing in his diary at the time  like must kill RFK or something like he had this  

sort of like it was like he had been programmed.  You can't I've looked at that in the different  

books. You can't tell. Is it just psychotic,  rambling, obsessing, or is it programming? And he  

also like didn't he had like memory lapses, right?  Like didn't he have some like he was traumatized  

uh in the Middle East as a kid cuz there's a lot  of war going on. His apartment was bombed and he  

uh saw some dismembered bodies and stuff. So, he  has a trauma foundation for being a dissociative  

guy. Speaking of trauma foundation, you read  some of these Epstein files and you start to  

go beyond this is just sick, you know, pedophile  elite powerful people fulfilling their bizarre  

fantasies, uh, and into a territory of they're  systematically conditioning some of these young  

people and creating what you call the the trauma  foundation so that these people are susceptible  

and impressionable to future sort of manipulation.  Do you think there was some sort of undercurrent  

there with the the Epstein thing? Well, first of  all, it's a bunch of sex offender guys. There's  

huge financial part to it. Sex trafficking.  I mean, it's a multi-billion dollar industry,  

right? So, there's their own personal sexual  whatever. There's the money. There's the scoring  

points with the other guys and being high ranking  in that subculture. and then who knows what else.  

It's pretty pretty bizarre, man. It's a it's a  weird world. You read that stuff and you're like,  

"Oh my god." Like it really not only does it sort  of vindicate the super conspiracy theorists like  

people who believed in Pizzagate cuz it looks  like jerky and hot dog like these foods were  

like code words for children and stuff. It was  just gross. Not only is it vindication for that,  

but it's vindication for people who I think viewed  uh like the world more metaphysically and thought  

elite power structures weren't just vying for  power but maybe were doing the bidding of some  

like evil entities above them. Like what would  drive anybody to do these sorts of things? It's,  

you know, it's like I think Les Wexner who was  Epstein's like one of his closest associates and  

I think you know he like provided him with a house  in Ohio and stuff and like piles of money. Yeah.  

Piles of money. He was the Victoria Secret founder  and CEO. So do we think this guy has access to  

women? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean there you go.  Um, and then but but also I believe in the 80s or  

90s less Wexner is writing in his diary and he's  talking about being haunted by a dvak. And a dbuk  

is uh I think in Hebrew it means demon. And so  you get into this these, you know, weird territory  

where it's like you're not even doing this for  your own sick, sadistic, twisted, you know,  

pleasure. You're doing this because you're doing  the bidding of some higher, you know, even more  

evil. Well, now now we're definitely outside  the documents. Yeah. Yeah, we are. We're outside  

regular psychiatry. Yes. So, but now you're  into supernatural multi-dimensional entities,  

which then takes us into aliens. And sure, who  knows? I mean, I don't pretend to know the answers  

to all this stuff. Well, speaking of supernatural  entities, I know you're not interested in aliens  

at all. Not at all. It's not Yeah, who cares? Um,  you know, maybe we'll get to that at some point,  

but uh, no, uh, uh, it's funny. Um, one of the  people you mention in the documents as far as,  

uh, you know, psychiatrists deeply implicated in  MK Ultra is a guy named Michael Persinger. And  

do you know about his God helmet, the Persinger  God helmet? So, tell us about that. Well, there's  

Martin Ore and Jolly West were on the board of the  False Memory Syndrome Foundation that was formed  

in 1992. Mhm. And there's a if you ever watched a  movie called Star Wars, there's the light in the  

dark, right? Universal themes. Yes. So, uh,  in 1980 comprehensive textbook of psychiatry  

that I studied is like the Bible of psychiatry.  Three volumes. It's like literally this thick.  

Uh way at the back of volume two, there's a small  section called topics of special interest, which  

is irrelevant stuff that we thought we'd throw  in way at the back, and a chapter called incest,  

which is not a relevant topic in psychiatry. In  that chapter, there's a reference to a 1955 study  

saying that incest occurs in one family out of a  million in North America. Those were the medical  

facts in 1980. So there's been massive cover  up of childhood trauma, childhood sexual abuse,  

sexual harassment on and rape. There was no rape  crisis centers around. It was all completely  

irrelevant to the mental health of the population.  Is the implication of these psychiatrists who are  

causing trauma being on this false memory  foundation? Is it like they're gaslighting  

the people that they've traumatized by saying  they're false memories or like what's the Well,  

I think it's This is now speculation, too. I'm  going to speculate if you don't mind. Sure. I know  

you don't like speculation. I love speculation.  Oh, I mis misread that. It's hard to tell. So,  

um I think there's if you look at the people on  the the board and the people been active in the  

false memory, what was that organization trying  to do? for sure, for a fact, publicly stated,  

get rid of multiple personality. Nobody's  diagnosing it. Nobody's treating it. Discredit  

it. Ridicule it. Shut it down. So, what were their  motives? It wasn't just one thing. So, there's a  

bunch of people who are sort of memory experts and  it doesn't fit with their model of memory that you  

can induce amnesia or even have amnesia just on  your own as part of PTSD. So, they don't like  

that. So they want to shut that down. Then there's  u I think a group of people who actually were  

mistakenly falsely accused of incest. So they want  some organization to help them out. Then there's  

people who were actually incest perpetrators. They  need a defense. So it's all false memories. And  

then there's a group of people who just think  that's a whole bunch of stupid Freudian theory  

and we've grown past that and we want to shut  down all that nonsense. And then there's Jolly  

West Martin or their motive being to cover up the  menuring candidate programs because therapists  

are starting to tune in to multiple personalities.  Uh which didn't exist back in the back in the day  

hardly. Uh and we're just starting to hear stories  of I was taken to a military base. I was taken to  

a lab. I was spun around physically. Did things  with goggles. all kinds of experimental stuff to  

create alter personalities. So this is leaking out  into public. So that better get shut down. Jesus.  

So there's multiple motives there. You said spun  around and disoriented. Yeah. It's all What do  

you If you go to Abu Grae or Guantanamo Bay where  we've all been by looking at photos, right? What  

do you see being done? torture, food deprivation,  sensory deprivation, isolation, hooding,  

sitting in forced postures for hours and hours  and hours and hours and hours at Abu Grae. Um,  

being forced to naked do sex stuff with other male  uh, Muslim guys with a female US officer watching  

uh, mock dog attacks, electric shock. There's  photographs of all this stuff and um insulting  

the religion and stomping literally physically  stomping on and destroying the Quran. Why would  

I mean but doing that to our it's horrible to  do that to anyone, right? Doing that to our own  

citizens feels even crazier. Well, so jumping  back to Guantano Bay, why would we be doing all  

this stuff? That's just classical brainwashing,  mind control. M technology. So suspicion they're  

actually trying to like Guantanamo Bay is actually  a training breeding ground for Manurion candidate  

double agents who then get released. Wow. Go  back home maybe. Oh interesting. So it's like  

the like worst case outcome is you inflict a  lot of pain on the person. They give you vital  

information. You break them. The best case is that  you can actually create some split personality or  

something and then send them back into their home  turf, their home countries, right? Jesus Christ,  

that's gnarly, man. That I mean that makes sense.  It makes sense. The odds that it's never been done  

anywhere seems slim to me. Well, yeah. No, I mean  that definitely has been. That's crazy. There's a  

a little side story. Since I'm Canadian by birth,  I got two passports now. Um, there's a guy named  

Omar Kedar. I'm not quite sure how you pronounce  his last name. Um, who was a terrorist in the  

Middle East. I think it was Afghanistan. It was  either Iraq or Afghanistan. Um, and he uh threw  

a grenade that wounded uh several American service  guys. Well, How'd he get his hands on the grenade?  

How old was he? 12. So 12-year-old kid, a platoon  of US soldiers invades his village way out in the  

middle of nowhere. There's a firefight. He gets  shot. This is according to the US military. He's  

under rubble. He gets pulled out. He gets taken  back to here and here ends up at Guantanamo Bay  

because he's a known terrorist. And the I I don't  know if it's true or not true, but they say that  

they are interested in him because his father  may have communicated with Osama bin Laden. So,  

we're going to hold a 12-year-old kid who's  now 18, 19, 20 for almost a decade to try and  

get information out of him cuz we can't get that  information out in a couple of weeks and he's a  

terrorist. And then he gets released and goes  back to Canada and Canada gives him 10 million  

and place to stay. This is such stupid stories  and such ridiculous behavior for what purpose?

It's very weird. So you think there's this  ulterior motive of I don't know if it's just  

gung-ho as you mentioned cowboy craziness or Yeah.  there's some sort of ulterior motive or plan.  

Like, what are the odds that a 12-year-old kid  knows anything about anything? Speaking of kind of  

couriers that are split off from some hermetically  sealed, almost encrypted part of themselves that's  

carrying a message into kind of deep foreign  territory. One of the craziest stories from  

your book is about a woman named Candy Jones,  right? What's her deal? The control of Candy  

Jones is uh is her auto not auto biography, not  autobiography. Uh so she was a pinup girl in  

World War II in the Pacific theater. Came back,  was just kind of living a fairly regular life,  

nothing much going on. And then um there's a guy  who's oh not going to remember this name either,  

but there's a guy who is a military intelligence  guy who's living in the same building who kind  

of interacted with her a bit and she ended  up uh getting worked on by this psychiatrist  

uh had a a new identity that was doing courier  assignments and who knows exactly what kind of  

assignments. And then she wrote it or she and  her biographer wrote about that in detail. Did  

she What were the career assignments? Where did  she go? Uh Philippines. I can't remember the whole  

list of places. Maybe Taiwan. I think probably  it was over Eastern Asia. Yeah. Um the gifted and  

talented education program in the United States.  This often comes up as possibly related to some  

of these mind control experiments, but being done  systematically on young people. You have a lot of  

people now coming out saying they had me drink a  pink drink that erased my memory or I was told to  

stare at a sine wave and collapse the sine wave  or, you know, look at a piece of metal and see  

how I mentally interacted with the metal, right?  sometimes being spun around on, you know, their,  

you know, people's vestibular systems being messed  with. I think I think there's something called the  

the G-lock or something like that. I don't know  that. Do have you heard anything about the gifted  

and talented education program? A few sort of  floating rumors. That's about it. Okay. But  

I've had people have told me whether whatever the  program was called that how did they get into it?  

Well, um, their dad took them over there because  they they had dirt on their dad cuz he was a sex  

offender and so on. Now, the route is after  school programs, special school programs,  

and then the special school program got  transferred over to the base. So, I've heard  

those stories. Do you think any of this stuff do  UFOs ever come up in your research? Do you think  

any of this relates to UFOs? I've actually touched  on that a few times. at risk of being dismissed as  

a EUO conspiracy nut. Of course, you're in good  company. Uh, you outrank me. Actually, I'm just  

I'm just a lowle guy. Yeah. Yeah. You can you can  uh you know, look look very sane next to me. So,  

I'm wearing a ridiculous shirt that says believe  and alien on. Uh I'm wide open to aliens like uh  

uh we know that there's like multiple multiple  multiple multiple reports of uh visual sighting  

from the ground, visual sighting from the pilot,  simultaneous radar sighting from the ground, radar  

sighting from the jet, you turning right angles  at Mach 3, jumping up 80,000 ft in seconds. That's  

all documented. These things have been observed  over and over and over. Uh which maybe we can get  

to Roswell in a second here. Um so there's clearly  craft and the it's kind of like taking the lid off  

little bit by little bit by little bit cuz it was  all mockery mockery mockery mockery. But now it's  

not mockery anymore. Why? We're not talking about  those crazy UFOs anymore. We're talking about  

UAPs. So that's sort of a sanitizing take the bad  aura off and the military and the government are  

saying there's UAPs that are not from us. So okay,  so is that cover story for some advanced program  

of our own, but it's it's not any technology  that's anywhere near the public domain. Uh so  

there definitely are UAPs flying around. Do they  have biological occupants from other planets? Just  

based on that information, you can't say for sure.  But it's not just a madeup by nutcases thing. It's  

an officially acknowledged phenomena by the  government. And if it's not like it's not the  

Russians, it's not the Chinese, it's not us. Yep.  We kind of run out of possibilities here. Well,  

also if you think of UFOs as this like sacred  truth, like a UFO itself is just a kind of a  

byproduct. It's this like, you know, it's the  tip of the iceberg, which is just this object,  

right, that's flying in ways that we don't  understand. And then if you think of that as  

uh the tip of the spear on like a deeper kind of  worldview, metaphysical worldview that is just  

much more expanded than this kind of materialist  reductionist, you know, kind of overly scientific  

view that we have today. Uh, I wonder if  government or power structures think about people  

who are seeking truth and looking systematically  into UFOs as some some sort of like, you know,  

uh, threat because it's inherently kind of in  a reverent search. It's you're looking for,  

you know, authority beyond the government  or you're looking for, again, metaphysics  

that's very kind of expanded. And so I do  sometimes wonder if there are divi if there  

are initiatives in the government to kind of  manufacture division and stoke conflict within  

the UFO community or instigate belief in sort of  bizarre ways or so without having any evidence.  

I'm sure there are. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there  are too. Just the way intelligence operations  

operate. Yeah. You're always sewing to stand back  in one side, back in the other side. Yeah. And if  

you just see it as a huge theater distraction,  Uh-huh. what's it being distracted from? Well,  

it's because there really are aliens and somebody  in the government is interacting with them or it's  

our own advanced weaponry that we want to keep a  lid on. Yeah, I know. I know. One or the other.  

I know enough to know that there's some aliens  is a you know you are kind of being presumptuous  

by saying aliens as far as you know them being  from another planet and I'm saying not you. I'm  

saying anybody. Um I'm I'm never presumptuous.  And you're never presumptuous. Now you do stick  

with the facts. I don't. Um but uh well I just  like to use facts as the base. I don't mind going  

off speculate. That's what you have to do. That's  what you have to do with these things. And and I  

actually think it's irresponsible not to speculate  if per what you said, you're being given little  

bits and pieces of information strategically per  these limited hangouts. If you're not trying to  

figure out what's actually going on and you're  just taking at face value what you're being given,  

that's that's an issue. If you're being given the  data set by somebody who's trying to throw you  

off, um do you have to sip on the Kool-Aid while  you're doing that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well,  

that's the thing. you have to sip on it and  then say this Kool-Aid tastes bad and spit it  

out or something, you know. So, it's it's it's  a really tough these things are tough to look  

into because the people that are the bad actors  are often the sources of information. So, it's  

it's a weird it's a weird space. Um, but yeah, I  do wonder how much interaction the UFO stuff and  

the MK Ultra stuff is. I mean, okay, why don't we  There's zero in the MK Ultra related documents.  

Not one word. The only connection I think I  can Yeah. The the only connection um I have is  

I believe in Jacqu Valet. Jacqu Valet is this  famous French godfather. You're aware of him.  

Yeah. He's this amazing UFO researcher. He's  the basis for France Rufo's character in Close  

Encounters of the Third Kind. He was Jen Heinik's  assistant in Blue Book and he was also one of the  

kind of early pioneers of the internet. um he  helped build Arpanet under Doug Angelbart. he  

um in he has these like series of diaries where  he just writes about his meetings that he has and  

they're called forbidden science and he has like  I think five volumes at this point and he talked  

about I believe Sydney got uh or some or like  some of his sup some like people in like the CIA  

you know technical staff services like that world  them having books on UFOs and trying to understand  

what's going on with them, right? But like not  really understanding what's going on with them.  

So there's some sort of interest on the part  of people who are clearly deeply implicated in  

the mind control stuff in the UFO stuff. And then  that book I mentioned, Martin Cannon Controllers,  

he says abductions are just like alien abductions  are just a smokeokc screen for MK Ultra. Like  

um uh the f most famous abduction was Betty and  Barney Hill 1961. They actually say, you know,  

in their hypnotic regression, the beings look like  Nazis or whatever. So then you get these operation  

paperclipip scientists brought over. There's a  very cool X-Files episode. I don't remember the  

whole story, but the UFO crashes or something and  the the woman is being like manipulated and she's  

probably going to get anal probe and everything by  the aliens. Then all of a sudden it's it's human  

beings. And then the boss guy says, "Okay, rinse  her out." Right. So, yeah. And you know what? I  

think certain abductions have been that. And  then this is where it's so weird. It's kind  

of the perfect smoke screen for Intel because I  also think they're a real alien abduction. So,  

the Betty and Barney Hill thing I think was  a genuine abduction. But also, you know,  

the the other weird fact around that is Charles  Douglas Jackson who worked at he was like head of,  

you know, a part of the psychological strategy  board and ran psychological warfare for the United  

States in the '50s and I believe was at Time  magazine was responsible for the Zaprder film. So  

the missing frames in the JFK assassination video  like this guy was clearly sort of like the missing  

frames in the jail cell for Epstein. Exactly.  The whole minute missing and the raw data. Crazy.  

So CD Jackson is in is meeting with the Betty and  Barney Hill a few weeks after they get abducted  

back to uh Epstein. Yeah. So what if there's let's  say it was accidentally missing? Mhm. Which is how  

slack is that operation? But okay, everything's  fine. Then a minute later he's dead. You you can't  

even die of asphixxiation in one minute. It takes  longer. No, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. that  

that case smells so bad. It's so obvious and  you know, I don't know. I It's funny to me to  

see a lot of like the podcast circuit is like all  like up in arms now and I'm like it's we've known  

this for five years. It's like so like just look  at the facts like it's so obvious. Um you know,  

not that they shouldn't be up in arms, but they  should have been up in arms many years ago, right?  

But um the human energy field, let's we've been  covering so much dark stuff. And I think the the  

positive element of this is that we all have these  kind of bioelectric electromagnetic fields. And I  

think later MK Ultra stuff unfortunately deals  with like chip implantations and stuff that is  

kind of freaky and weird. putting implants in  dolphins brains and guiding them to drop bombs  

is what? Who did that? CIA military documented.  No way. Being able to remote control a dolphin  

to drop a bomb. Uh what's that? Uh the day of  the dolphin. Yeah. You know that movie? Yeah.  

It's about John Lily. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.  John Lily is the actual real life character.  

So the mysterious organiz government organization  comes over and starts jacking around with he's  

working with dolphins and giving them LSD which  John Lily actually did. And then what they do is  

they get a dolphin they attach the bomb to the  dolphin. The dolphin supposed to go under the  

can't remember if it's the vice president or the  president's fishing boat and go tick and release  

the thing and it blows up and then that gets all  shut down. But the documents described using brain  

electrode implant off he goes control the route  being drop the bomb off that's described in the  

document. Jesus Christ there's so we'll veer  into that before we get to the energy fields.

So in MCAL and related documents there's  implanting electrodes in uh animal brains  

to control their behavior. Uh there's a guy  Jose Delgado who's a neurosurgeon at Yale.  

He's got a published a book called towards a  psycho civilized society and he says what we  

need to do is implant electrodes in the brains  of the entire population not counting the lead  

generals and the top politicians and that's how  we're going to make society psychosivilized. What  

the stated in the book clearly so it's the mark  of the beast. Yeah. And so uh there's photographs  

in medical journals. One is a 16-year-old girl  who's had electrode in her brain. And Delgado,  

the technical advance he made was you don't  have to have the wire connected. You can use  

a remote transmitter to activate the electrode. So  depending on which electrode is being activated,  

she's normal. She's strumming on her  guitar. She's pounding furiously at the on  

the wall or she's just like out of it. This is  photographs of this girl. And then in monkeys,  

uh, and one of the stupid cover stories is, oh  yeah, we were trying this on cats. We had the  

cat with an electrode. We're sending it off into  the world, but it ran off in front of a car and  

got killed. So we never do that again. Um, so, uh,  this is how it leaks into Hollywood as fiction,  

but it's actually fact. uh the uh and it's  treatment of epilepsy is why we're putting  

electrodes in people's brains. All 100%  documented. Then there's a guy in Tulain  

University, Robert Heath, psychiatrist, who's  funded by uh CIA and multiple branches of the  

military. He's doing brain electrode implants  and has the remote transmitter. He's curing the  

well-known mental disease of homosexuality because  according to the American Psychiatric Associ

pornography over and over and over and over to  condition them while you're stim stimulating the  

electrode to put him in a state of pre-orggasmic  arousal. So you're pairing arousal with  

heterosexuality. And towards the end, this is all  published in mainstream medical journal that I've  

actually published in myself. Um they towards  the end they brought in a female prostitute,  

had her have sex with the guy while they're  monitoring his brain waves and then they  

debrief him and the prostitute and she says  yeah he functioned well normal. No way. And  

then the end of the paper is so he was cured of  homosexuality with only one relapse in the first  

6 months. Jesus in the only one but that's  what that's in the mainstream literature.  

Well, just like the Tuskegee syphilis study  is published in mainstream journal. That is  

this is this is crazy. That's crazy. So,  that's the crazy stuff that goes on in the  

psychiatry literature and in the official manual  of psychiatry, let alone the hidden stuff. Jesus,  

man. So we're just more I mean John Lily who we  were talking about the inspiration for the day  

of the dolphin he would do he kind of invented the  isolation tank and he would take you know a lot of  

um ketamine and would you know get into these  dissociative states and he even like I think  

at one point summoned this thing he called the  SSI the solid state entity and would communicate  

oh yeah communicate with this sort of alien  intelligence and um he wrote a book called I think  

was it human uh programming and metarogramming. I  haven't read it. I think so. So, you you just on  

on the note of what you're saying, it just feels  like humans are far more like programmable than  

we we don't think of ourselves as suggestible. We  think of ourselves as sort of fixed, but in fact,  

we're way more impressionable than we'd ever  believe. Well, just take a look at Hollywood.  

In the 50s, we were hunting communists, some of  whom were communists and a bunch weren't. And  

like everybody was on board with we got to clean  up, clean up America here. So that was pretty  

unanimous. And now it's flipped to the opposite  extreme where if you're not way over on the left,  

try finding work in Hollywood. Yeah, it's really  hard. And so then that's just the programmability  

of people in general. place swing over here, they  swing over there. Humans are extremely mimedic and  

uh you know, you just sort of ideas are fashion  statements and you see it especially on social  

media is like really amplifies this cuz it's a  hall of mirrors massively. So if you're not like  

saying the thing that's like really popular  right now, then you're sort of you're you're  

falling behind and you're not staying relevant or  something. There's a guy in British Columbia, uh,  

so me being originally Canadian, uh, he just got  fined. It was something like $750,000 for making,  

uh, just stating an opinion. Yeah. That  there's only two genders and two sexes.  

That's insane. You got to find threequarters of  a million dollars. That is so crazy. That is so  

crazy. So that's what's the difference between  that and the McCarthy era. Do you think do you  

think people like Jolly West tried to affect  culture via celebrity? Like I actually I met  

a woman who was Charlton H's daughter-in-law. It's  really sweet lady and um if you're out there hello  

uh and she you know uh uh Charlton H obviously  you know this legendary actor but Charlton H was  

this NRA champion. Yeah. So he was this, you  know, National Rifle Association, you know,  

uh when shootings would happen, he would sort  of be in the counter rally saying we, you know,  

protect the Second Amendment, the right to bear  arms. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.  

That's right. And that, you know, and if anything,  it mitigates violence and all this stuff. And then  

I found out there's some data to support that. the  in in a reverse sense there's fewer deaths at home  

from guns in how homes that don't have guns which  well hello it's pretty obvious that's a good stat  

and for me this is not I moved from California to  Texas so I'm not this is not a pmic on you know  

I'm not anti anti-gun necessarily but I do find it  interesting that a guy in Jolly West who's clearly  

programmed a lot of violence at high levels in the  US is best friends with the guy who's the head of  

the NRA and this gun champion. Like that seems  interesting to me. Is there something there? You  

keep asking me questions as if I might know the  answer. I don't know. You know, we're speculating.  

We're we're in kind of really murky territory,  but Well, obviously that it's a huge industry,  

right? Yeah. So, there's the financial part of it.  There is the gung-ho cowboy part. Mhm. In Canada,  

I lived up in the Canadian Arctic. I probably  killed two or 300 tarmaggan, which is a type  

of gross that turns white in the winter. I owned  a rifle. I never did shoot a moose, but I owned  

a rifle. So, you know, I was out in the woods  walking around hunting, killing, eating. Uh, in  

southern Canada, I shot lots of rabbits and cooked  them and eat them. So, I'm not, you know, we can't  

kill the animals type person, but the amount of  gun violence in the United States when you look at  

the graphs like per 100, the United States is up  here. Next country is like down here. Well, that  

so this is so out of control. It's out of control.  And this is what I'm getting at. And this is a  

really weird deep conspiratorial thread of which  we've, you know, developed a few here. But but it  

seems like the things Jolly West are involved with  and this cuts to Tom O'Neal's uh thesis with chaos  

is the construction of somebody like a Manson  because he looked and talked and walked like  

a hippie when counterculture was at its greatest  threat to again people like Jad Garoover who were  

running the FBI at the time, the State Department.  These guys were a little bit straight. What's  

that? They were a little bit straight. What do you  mean, Juber? I mean, they weren't hippies. They  

were straight guys. Oh, that exact. Well, speaking  of the, you know, kind of uh proverbial, you know,  

he wasn't exactly totally straight. Well, he was  a cross he was into crossdressing and they had all  

this compliment on him. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Well,  it's always it's always this sort of narcissism of  

small differences weird thing going on. So, but  the point like he had it out for counterculture,  

right? And so this is what Tom O'Neal concludes  in his book is they're going to construct somebody  

that looks like a hippie in Charles Manson who  literally had he was like this wannabe artist.  

He has a song called Look at Your Game girl. He's  living with the Beach Boys. And then um you have  

you know uh uh this you know famous quote by Joan  Ddian right after the murders saying you know  

August I think it was 8th 1968 was the you know  the day that the or maybe 1969 I don't remember  

was the day that the 60s ended the day that he  you know committed the murders the next day the  

60s ended counterculture hippie culture all that  stuff's over so the threat is over if you're you  

know part of the establishment structure and so  you have to Wonder, you know, again with this  

connection with Charlton H and gun violence, was  Jolly West specifically stoking symbolic violence,  

violence where you were creating local violence in  order to move society in a specific teology. Like  

if you look at certain violent things that happen  now, they get amplified so much across social  

media, right? Whether it's Kyle Writtenhouse on  the right or George Floyd on the left, I'm not  

making a comment on either of those things. It's  not something I want to weigh into like both both,  

you know, kind of there's a very curious thing  with George Floyd. Yeah. Obviously not a good guy.  

Obviously didn't deserve to die. It didn't deserve  to die. Maybe was killed by the police officer,  

but he was cranked up on Coke and had heart  condition. Sure. But we should say it was a  

it was a horrific video and and it would get  any reasonable person whipped up. Yeah. So,  

but why select him as the poster child? He's for a  documented fact held a pistol to a black pregnant  

woman's abdomen while robbing our house. We want  that guy to be our hero. There are all sorts of  

So, yeah. So, is that chosen on purpose to set up  the counter argument that he's a no good bad guy  

or they just overlook it or how does that operate?  Well, this is the thing. I think in either  

of those cases or you could you come up with a  million different examples of like public violence  

um you know, violence that gets amplified across  social media. again, not making a comment on,  

you know, you could go get in all sorts of like  deep arguments as to, you know, who's the guy  

who's like, you know, I can't breathe and he was  being choked out, you know, in Brooklyn. Clearly,  

it's way past time to there's all sorts of police  malfeasants in these cases. But I think if you're  

intel and you're viewing uh the effect of symbolic  violence, there's something there's something very  

powerful about that. And it's very powerful if  you want to sway things on particular issues.  

And so I think the public should just be aware  and not susceptible to uh the the sort of you  

know artificial construction of some of these  violent cases. Good luck on that one. I know.  

Yeah. So here's a little slightly related. We're  saying all these things and then it's like we're  

we're trending in the complete wrong direction  as a society as far as our ability to make sense  

of any of these things. Like you go on Twitter  or Tik Tok or Instagram and people's brains are  

being melted by this stuff. Debate now means  shouting your feelings really loudly. That's  

right. So it Yeah. It almost makes me feel like  because I So do you ever feel in danger talking  

about this stuff? Like I did a little bit  way back but then nothing happened. So okay,  

why am I sweating a couple decades later? Yeah.  So it's been a story of my podcasting career.  

I'm like really I can say that. Okay cool. So far  don't come on. Have you ever encountered MK Ultra  

being used in the context of spooky science? So  I think of if you had a modern Manhattan project.  

Spooky science means means classified science or  science that you know maybe would lead to it's  

low barrier to entry and very destructive or um  but we're talking actual engineering not confer  

a tactical advantage you know in aerospace or  weaponry or anything like that because I think  

of we talked about the Manhattan project for a  second if you had any sort of modern equivalence  

of the Manhattan project and you were working on  something really sensitive. Mhm. You might implant  

one of the scientists with a chip or tell them  to drink a drink or something and then you'd have  

like a shutdown switch if they ever, you know,  got lost in foreign territory. I mean, this is  

really dark stuff, but have you ever encountered  anything like that or Uhuh. Okay. Um, let's get  

into lighter territory because this is a I'm  officially really spooked. This is a great book.  

This is the the So, so far we've done mostly this  book and a little bit this book. Now we're going  

to do that book. Now we're going to do this book,  The Human Energy Field, right? What inspired you  

to write this? And what's the basic thesis? Uh, so  I'm a hardcore scientist, right? Yeah. Mainstream.  

No flaky stuff at all. No, you're right down  the middle. Here comes the the mainstream,  

not flaky story. Yeah. So, I'm in uh England in '  67 and I just remember not particularly thinking  

about the topic. Uh Nodding Hill Gate is right  at the corner of a big park and I'm just walking  

into the park and all of a sudden I see a cone  of light that comes out of my eyes. It's about  

25 30 feet away. Diameter is about like this. And  as I moved my gaze, it moves up onto the back of  

a person. Then it dissolves. So what the hell?  Hadn't taken any LSD that day. So I just stored  

that experience instead of oh that's stupid. And  then that made me think about the sense of being  

stared at which is very common experience. And  then uh it's called you know there's a word for it  

scopesthesia. I watched you talking to the Rupert  Sheldendrick. Rupert Sheldrick. That's right. And  

I've read his book, so I'm aware of him. Yeah. So,  uh, because you got to make it sound scientific,  

right? What? Scopesthesia. Scopesthesia. Yeah.  We're not fooling around here. You got to make  

it sound official, right? Yeah. So, which is good  strategy. I agree with it. So, then uh UAP. So,  

the sense of being stared at uh and then I started  to actually for some reason was more in Italy when  

I was traveling in Italy. I remember one time  in particular, I could actually feel the spot  

on the side of my face that was being stared at  when I turn around and look at the person that's  

staring right at me. Wow. And then I had another  experience of which is common. I'm looking through  

the window. So this energy goes through glass at  a nicel looking Italian woman walking down the  

street. She turns and looks right at me. There's  a look of mutual recognition and then it's like,  

"Huh?" So that's a very common experience that  a lot of people have had, right? So then I go,  

I'm not going to just blow that off and say  it's which mainstream quote science people  

say it's misperception. It's an illusion.  It's not real because there's two theories.  

There's intrammission, which is light comes  into your eyes, goes to your retina back to  

your brain. That's clearly real. And then extra  mission is something comes out of your eyes.  

Extrammission it not allowed. No way. Not  happening. Going all the way back to John  

Lock. It's just forbidden. It's not possible.  And that dominates academia today. So I go,  

"Yeah, maybe not. Something's got to be coming  out here for you to sense somebody staring at  

you." So that's kind of what got me off on this.  And then it was a spiritual, anthropological,  

philosophical reading, walking around in the woods  in England, in the bush in Canada, sensing energy  

fields. One time 1977 or 71, we've got a cabin in  the woods in eastern Manitoba. So I was out there  

with my shotgun hunting rabbit and all of a sudden  I go I could actually feel the stare of the rabbit  

and feel it was rabbit like energy. Turned around,  shot it, ate it that evening. So that makes me  

think, hm, there's survival advantage to being  able to sense stare. And then that made me think,  

well, if you're a gazelle out in Africa somewhere  and you can sense the predator staring at you and  

you feel uneasy and you take off, that's going  to be selected for over evolution. It's a good  

survival skill. And so I'm thinking along those  lines and then I go, well, okay, that's nice,  

but how are we going to study this scientifically?  So Rupert Sheldrick talks about morphic fields,  

right? But what are morphic fields? It's  like how do you measure them? It doesn't  

lead to a natural experiment. So then I just  went uh we know for a fact that every atom,  

every everything in the universe emits an  electromagnetic field and then inside there's  

the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear  force and then gravity's in there somehow but  

who knows how. So it's it's just basic physics,  right? So then I go, okay, I'm how am I going to  

be able to marry eastern and western medicine?  I'm going to say that energy, the spirit,  

the whatever, the whatever and the electromagnetic  field of the body are the same thing, just looked  

at through different lenses. If you look through  this lens, it's all spiritual, mystical, you can't  

study it. It's outside science. But if you look  at it through ah it's electromagnetic energy.  

We can measure that. So you put 20 electrodes  on your brain, you measure your EEG. You put  

12 electrodes here, you measure your EKG. So we're  already measuring the electromagnetic field of the  

body for diagnostic and treatment purposes. It's  mainstream science. Nothing wacky about it at all.  

So the human body only has two parts, the brain  and the heart. There's only brain disease and  

heart disease. That's it. Well, so the whole human  body is emitting information of probable high  

level medical relevance all the time. Why aren't  we measuring that? So then um I published a paper  

in a uh pretty obscure electrical engineering  journal where um a guy got these guys to sort  

of weld together a normal electrode that you put  in mice's brains to measure stuff and suspended it  

in front of my eye so it's not touching my body  at all. I've got ski goggles where I took out  

this side so I could actually see out. This side  is covered with tin foil and copper mesh that I  

got at Target. So, it's high level science. U but  that's very good electromagnetic insulation. Then  

there's another electrode hanging out in front  just in space. And then there's the 20 normal EG  

leads and these two frontal leads here. You can  see the squiggly lines like normal EG. So here's  

the two frontal leads. Here's the lead in front of  my eye. no physical contact with my body. Here's a  

control lead that's just showing background little  it's a completely physiological real signal that's  

been picked up in front of your eye. It looks  very similar to the electrode readings here.  

So I mean the whole world hasn't said good job we  know that extra mission is real now cuz you still  

have to say does it have any uh physiological or  ecological function and how far does it propagate  

out into space? Turns out that uh there's an  inverse square law shows that signals drop off  

really fast, but extra low frequency light brain  wave level propagates because if you figure the  

the wave like is so huge, it's not going to drop  off and it doesn't drop off and published in  

mainstream journals for thousands of kilometers.  The signal intensity doesn't drop off. So it's  

perfectly realistically possible that from here  to the gazelle, it's still a strong signal. So  

then I go into the anthropology of it. Well, what  about uh the sense of being stared at? But there  

in Italy, these people are called jettiatory. So  they jet the evil eye out of their eye. There's  

evil eye beliefs all around the world, right? And  you can cause evil eye sickness by staring at a  

person if you're a jediator who's got bad energy.  So like, okay, so there's all kinds of cultural  

precedence for this. What if it like 80% of that  superstition? I don't care. My thesis is there's a  

core real electrophysiological signal there that  can be investigated. That's fascinating. So you  

have the and what's really crazy is you said ELF  extremely low frequency Andre Puharic who isn't in  

some of the documentation that you went through  for CIA doctors but you're aware of him. He was  

fascinated by ELF waves and thought that that was  kind of the signal for consciousness right and  

that was I think the more kind of shut down part  of part of his work. So what are you saying is  

uh evidence for extrammission this idea that  the what are you saying that that the eyes emit  

photons or electrons or what specifically or or  ELF waves? So your brain emits brain waves which  

we measure by putting electrodes on your skull and  we have to do uh a little contact pace there just  

to get a good contact otherwise there's too much  noise. So these which I mentioned before before  

we started recording these electrical engineers  mainstream grant-f funded mainstream publications  

they could take a normal clinical EKG from a  meter away with no contact with the body. Sure.  

So these signals for sure are propagating out into  space. If they go a meter because it's ELF the ELF  

component is going way the heck out there. We know  for a fact, proven, no doubt. And me with my one  

little paper of proven it's coming out of your  eye. So there's all these brain waves going on.  

They got to get through your skull to get to the  electrode. Oh, they don't have to go through your  

skull to come out your eye. The optic nerve is  this giant electrical cable literally right there.  

and just the geometry of the skull and focus  concentration probably the signal is going to be  

stronger coming out of your eye. Oh, it's so wild.  And it but it's completely scientifically testable  

and scientifically plausible. It's not mysticism.  Yeah. So that's what I'm trying to do is take all  

this stuff and transform it into very specified  ways this could be tested. Um which by the way I  

would like some financial help with that from  somebody some kind person somewhere. Yeah. Um,  

and so this is electro technology. It looks  like from a little bit I've looked into it,  

probably an antenna technology is better. There's  very high sensitive uh antenna that exist and you  

can buy them online. So whether it's electrode  or antenna, start uh measuring these signals. So,  

for the eye part of it, which I'm just it's  kind of my personal hobby horse because I've  

already been ridiculed in public for talking about  extra mission, which I called the human eyebeam,  

but then I realized actually my daughter told  me you can't call it the human eyebeam if  

you're going to publish it. So, it's human ocular  extrammission. That sounds way more professional.  

Is does it decay at all? So, I think of a normal  electromagnetic wave as decaying at 1 / r 2. So  

one over distance your life doesn't decay like  that. What does it decay like? I don't know for  

sure but minimally for literally hundreds of  kilometers. So if I'm just thinking about a  

thing is the idea that I somehow know how to like  when I'm when I'm imprinted when I'm literally  

just thinking of something. I'm conjuring it up  in my mind. Am I affecting it somehow in this  

model via these ELF waves that well geollocate it  and literally reach it like a physical wave comes  

out of my brain or eyes? The whole body actually  whole body and reaches this object transmitter is  

the solar plexus in my opinion. Okay. But but is a  wave emitting from my body and reaching something  

that is geoloccated and tempor temporally located  in our time space because I think of consciousness  

like if you have a mental image of something.  I don't necessarily translate that as like you  

are beaming a thing at it or do you think you are  with these ELF waves? Well, we're back to yes, no,  

maybe. So that's why like the starting point. So  my effort is to boil it down to actually testable  

stuff. Yeah. And you got to start here before  you go way out here, right? So what would be  

the next test you would run? Uh develop a high  high sensitivity electrode. I would just assume  

that you can't repeatedly affect an object or  a person who's across some sort of, you know,  

totally electromagnetic shielding Faraday chamber.  And if you if I and I know these experiments have  

been done, how put off did experiments like  this with Ingo Swan. It's part of Stargate, the  

official CIA psychic spy program. Sheldendrick's  looked into that too, right? He's looked into  

this, but I my understanding is it's like it's  replicable and it's real. It's a real effect,  

but that you can't do it every single time and  you can't detect like an exact ELF wave every  

time. I mean, maybe they just haven't studied  the ELF component and it is literally a wave, but  

somehow my instinct is that it's more complicated  than some frequency we're missing. Like my guess  

is over the last 50 plus years of study in  parasychology with the benefit of information  

technology and chips and receivers and radio tech  that someone must have done this experiment at  

some point and picked up it's classified. Do you  think so? Yeah. There's again it's back to the  

military intelligence community and whoever  all the big companies would be negligent if  

they weren't trying to investigate this, tap into  it, figure out what to do with it? I agree. But  

do you think you can repeatably pick up? So you  think ELF waves explain all psychic phenomena?  

No. Okay. Nothing explains all of everything. So  I'm just saying what can we actually measure now  

with our current technology? Sure. and publish in  a mainstream journal and everybody's going to go  

said something stared at has just been proven.  What do what do we know about the skin? What  

happens if you stay out in the sun too long?  Get burned. Ultraviolet radiation. What causes  

the burn? UV. What type of radiation is that?  Electromagnetic. It's electromagnetic. It's um  

How do we synthesize vitamin D? Photons hit our  skin. They're captured. They drive biological  

processes. How do we see? So your body is already  capturing photons and using them to drive very  

well organized life essententral processes all  the time. So there's nothing that's just again  

right in the middle of common sense and science.  So there's these sub threshold uh rays that I  

happen to glimpse a few times that they're just  sub threshold. Doesn't mean they're not real.  

You know what I think you should invent?  What? So, people have been experimenting  

with electromagnetic healing modalities for  a long time. You have Royal Reich. We'll get  

we'll get there. Yeah. I'm just building the core  of the territory and then it I'll I'll defend you  

and say that this is a fact. The voltage gated ion  channels is how cells communicate. Differentials  

of the potential between, you know, within  the cell membrane and without the, you know,  

outside of the cell membrane. when it comes to  you know things like sodium potassium is how cells  

communicate local electromagnetic fields affect  those differentials affect the communication  

there's studies going back to the 70s there's  a guy Gary Becker wrote a great book called the  

body electric where great book yeah great book  you can essentially charge electromagnetically  

the severed you know um arm of a tadpole cut off  its arm charge it electromagnetically salamander  

He did too. Salamanders. Salamanders. You can cut  off their arm and they regrow it themselves. You  

regrow it themselves. But you can regrow, you  can create a two-headed salamander, two-headed  

tadpole also with basically just taking the, you  know, uh, the gradient, the ion gradients of the,  

uh, head cells and then applying it to  that stub of an arm that you cut off. So,  

you end up with these, I mean, there's literally  a guy at TUS right now named Michael Leven who's  

doing limb regeneration based on this stuff. It's  really wild. It's all coming. It's all coming.  

Absolutely. So, for people who are saying this  is quack science, no, it's absolutely real. So,  

here's what I think you should do. Okay. Um, so  Royal Refe. Yeah. Who was actually involved? Oh,  

I'm aware of him. Yeah. Yeah. You're aware of him.  So, he was involved in some not so savory research  

per what we were talking about in Plum Island and  you know where where probably the modern version  

of Lyme disease came from. Speaking of Yeah, I've  read about that. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty interesting.  

Um but he had this thing called a rife machine  which if you ask a Lyme disease patient to this  

day ironically uh this is the thing that works  for them that it came from this guy Royal Refe  

uh and it works on the electromagnetic field from  the of the body and it essentially is like a it's  

a horseshoe it's a copper horseshoe looks like  basically a Tesla coil right and it seems to  

tune the body in this really healing way there's  another company called amp coil which makes things  

around in this area. I've used an amp coil before.  It's called a Tesla coil. It's It's a Tesla coil.  

There's some guy around here who makes Tesla  stuff. Elon Musk. We should get him involved  

possibly. Although tricky to get his attention.  Yeah. I don't know. But um so I think if you  

There's a whole pmic on Elon working on Yeah.  Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. But I'm aware. Yeah.  

Yeah. You're aware. So um if you think of the body  as you can turn molecular mass into frequency and  

every organ or every part of the body should be  operating at some optimum frequency. Right? Again  

not quacky to say there's a field called simatics.  When the frequency goes to zero we know it's game  

over. We know it's game over. And there's a  field called simatics where you can put sand  

on a vibrational plate and create structures  deliberately with frequency and acoustics.  

And so we know that this is not pseudocience,  right? So what if you created some sort of  

just like we, you know, you can bank uh stem  cells or blood cord uh as if you're, you know,  

a baby or whatever and then you do an autogus  stem cell transfer later in life if you have  

some sort of malady and it can really help  you. Can I tell you a secret about doctors?  

What? They use long words you don't understand  to sound smarter. I know. Sorry for using the  

word autotogus. It's just your own stem cells is  what I'm saying where you don't have an immune  

reaction due to transferring it. My point is what  if you could figure out there was like an optimum  

frequency at which your organs or body was op  could operate at you could then create sort of  

a bank electromagnetically of you know what  what is optimum health for your organs. You  

could also do that across a large cohort and then  you could create essentially a tuning fork for the  

human body. And if you think about acoustics  and physics and electromagnetics, they exist  

upstream of biochemistry. Biochemistry is, you  know, one layer up on the stack. Do you want to  

know the caveman version of that technology? Tell  me. Yeah. What do you put in a person's chest when  

they've got atrial fibrillation? A pacemaker. A  pacemaker. Exactly. We're already doing it. Can't  

walk through an X-ray cuz it'll primitive level.  We are. No, we are. Exactly. We are. We know that  

the body is Yeah. And what is a defibrillator at  all? It is it's a way to electrically jump start  

the body. So what couldn't we do something like  this? And then you have you you would end up with  

this post medicine be you know you have medicine  which was the really the creation of the Flexner  

report and the sort of modern American medical  association which now we're offered to conspiracy  

theories again but it's not even a conspiracy.  It's literally it's prochemical based and all  

you know this was Rockefeller was funding this  stuff and I'm not saying you know necessarily  

it was all I'm very critical of big pharma. It's  it's horrible. It's a it's a bad system. So this  

is all it's all this prochemicalbased pills and  then if you created this sort of generator that  

could like take that out like this literally this  thing that could tune your body how amazing would  

that be? So you should create it. Thank you. Yeah.  You should get me some money. I'm giving you the  

idea and getting you the money. Yeah. Well,  what else you got to do today? I think Okay,  

fine. I'll own 90% of the company then. I  might have to negotiate on that. Okay. All  

right. We'll figure it out. Uh so, well, this is  all where my thinking is heading. And it's all  

there's a TV show and a couple of movies called  Star Trek. There's Dr. Bones. Mhm. triorder.

I'm talking about developing a triorder  because you use this antenna. Okay,  

so interested about the I-beam but interested in  the whole body and then you can have an array of  

these either electrodes or antenna whatever kind  of sensors it is and you lie the person down and  

you can have just handheld single version and you  can scan around. You can have a like a mammogram  

X-ray type thing or you can have like an MRI  machine would lie in there. You have a ray of  

these electrodes and you measure and all the  frequencies are coming out of the whole body  

in all the different locations and can you  spot disease at the electromagnetic level  

before it trickles down to the biological level?  Probably. probably or you just do the scan. So,  

it's not like an MRI. You're not putting any  radiation into the person or CT scan or anything.  

You're just measuring what comes out. So, it's no  more noxious than taking a photograph of somebody.  

There's no side effects at all. And then, okay,  just what you've been saying, okay, here's the  

abnormality that we've measured and we've got,  you know, all the norms and all the charts and  

all the different diseases all mapped out. what  energy are we going to put back in to normalize  

this? Exactly. So, it's a whole electromagnetic  medicine. And then uh I remember talking to a guy  

uh at a sort of a dinner get together was talking  about sort of this kind of stuff and and I was  

getting on saying to him, "Yeah, well satellites  now, they can read X-rays from the sky." And the  

guy's a military guy. and he sort of scoffs  at me and surprised me with his reactions.  

License plate. They can count the hair on a fly's  butt. So, I mean, the resolution is incredible,  

right? So, if I've got a little lines here, it's  called a fingerprint. I've got an iris here.  

I've got DNA in here. These are all identifying  features of me, right? So maybe everybody has an  

electromagnetic specific signature to themselves  which maybe you could track from way up there. So  

then really there's funny side story about that  too. uh a book about Osama bin Laden uh was uh  

obviously anti-FBI pro-CIA kind of perspective  and they're making fun of um this you know guys  

in the FBI CIA they're stumbling and bumbling  around they can't find him anywhere and oh we  

just missed our opportunity he was at uh Saudi  Arabia I think it was one of those gettogethers  

where they'll have their falcons and they're  hunting and stuff and he was there and they  

knew who was there and they were monitoring from  a drone or satellite or whatever and then they  

he just slipped out. We didn't notice him leaving  and that's why we didn't get him that year. It's  

the most ridiculous preposterous story ever. What  do you mean? You're surveying like all the time.  

What do you mean the tape changed? You the minute  it was missing from when Bin Laden left. So we we  

were obviously able to track any individual  we want just optically. So now it could track  

electromagnetically. So we have that technology.  How come we have all these missing children? We  

have no idea where they are. So there's some big  block to getting that operational so we could find  

all these people and arrest all these guys. So it  all now we're back into the conspiracy side of it.  

But so what what exactly? You're saying if this  technology around MK Ultra is in the black along  

with the electromagnetic signatures that are  unique to people, we should be able to like  

track everybody on the planet like or some group  should with sort of potentially but we're already  

tracking with digital currency, satellite  imagery. Yeah. Telephones, emails. I mean,  

every single phone call, email is tracked and  stored, right? So, it's just another additional  

part of the horrible surveillance complex. Yeah,  it's fantast. Well, I'm back to the light side  

here cuz uh my father's not that evil guy. Uh so,  we're just taking mainstream medicine into the  

21st century. We are, man. while dragging our feet  on it a bit. And so then another thing would be  

security. So you have iris recognition. You have  you you're the only person with your key. There's  

levels of it. Why don't we have a electromagnetic  scanner that identifies the person? Why don't  

we have a system where you can detect somebody  approaching the building or entering the building  

electromagnetically? Let's not let's not do any  of that. Let's do the healing thing first. Just  

saying this is part of the sales pitch, right?  Yeah. There's so many applications then uh in  

agriculture. Yeah. Uh we have hydroponic gardening  already, right? Yeah, sure. It's not that widely  

used. Uh we know there's some like really stupid,  ridiculous people called medicine men. Yeah. And  

they like to jump around and chant and wave  feathers in the air to help the crops grow.  

Superstition. There's uh if you go back 1500  years in England, there's the maple dances,  

which are fertility dances in the spring. So,  it's all cultures all over the place, right? Well,  

ridiculous nonsense, but they're they're having  fun at the party. But what if the medicine man  

is emitting a specific focused electromagnetic  signal which I say probably coming from the solar  

plexus that actually enhances German germination.  So now we go to the hydroponic garden. We measure  

what it is that's coming out of the medicine man's  body. We imitate that frequency with an emitter.  

We expose the hydroponent garden to it. We have  the control garden. What's the germination rate?  

It's totally researchable. Well, like Tesla said,  it's all frequency. Yeah. And Dr. Colin Ross,  

I really appreciate this. I'm glad we ended on  this positive note of fertilizing the world,  

healing people. Uh because we just covered  a lot of dark [ __ ] to be honest. True. And  

um but it's dark stuff that really needs to be  exposed and uh you really helped uh put it to  

the light. And so I don't really know what you  do with this. I think it's just be aware of all  

the weird malfeasants when it comes to intel  on this stuff historically and you know maybe  

we can get some good investigative journalism  as to what's happening today. And uh really  

appreciate you coming by man. It was a lot of  fun. Sure. Thanks for the invite. Absolutely.