i internalize this idea that unless i

get a hundred percent unless i win

i'm not good enough i'm not loved doctor

and broadcaster doctor wrong and

chatterjee your first book was a huge

success my guest today is the perfect

guest it's a really big honor to have

you on my podcast

my son janam getting sick at six months

old changed the course of my career you

see we need to evolve the way that we

practice medicine sleep deprivation is

associated with pretty much every single

chronic disease we have compared to

about 60 years ago we may have lost up

to 25 of our sleep the way

society is set up now is making us

lonely we've moved away for work we've

moved away from our families we don't

have the tribes around us and it's very

very damaging for our health it took me

ages to figure this out the dots i think

you can always make a change right you

can use these

moments of diversity in your life to

teach you something it's the best

journey you'll ever take but it's a

journey it's not a one hit

the first step in any change is

so without further ado

i'm stephen butler and this is the diary

of a ceo i hope nobody's listening but

if you are

then please keep this to yourself

[Music]

dr rongan chatterjee

i am i have to say i have to stop this

conversation by saying it's a really big

honor to have you on my podcast because

you are someone when i started taking my

podcast seriously who i looked up to and

admired for so many reasons not because

you are you've really kind of paved the

way for these long-form conversations in

the uk

but because you have the same very

similar subject matter and apparent

interest in the conversations you have

with your guests to the point that it

inspired me in a really big way to start

this platform and so when um when i

found out that you were coming in today

it felt like you know it felt like a bit

of a felt like christmas day for me

because the the conversations you have

are the things that i

would spend my spare time

sort of um watering my brain with so

thank you first and foremost for coming

in today it's a huge huge privilege i

receive and i appreciate you saying that

and and likewise i feel really honoured

and excited to come on your show because

i think long-form conversation matters

and i don't there's that many people in

the uk

doing it like you are like i am and um

you know i think you're doing great

things with your shows so i'm i'm i'm

really excited just to have a long

conversation with you i don't know where

it's going to go

but um yeah thanks for having me so take

me back to the foundations who who were

you

so i grew up in the northwest of england

and

you know mum and dad were immigrants

from india you know dad came over in

1962 for a better life to the uk mum

came over in 1972 i grew up got an older

brother

and

you know like many immigrant families

education was

king

right it was about get good grades at

school go to a good university get a

good job

right that was the

kind of drive from home my experience

was very much

man the culture at school was really

different from the culture at home

and i didn't really think much of it at

the time but you know now in my early

40s looking back and reflecting as i've

done

for this new book is

that was incredibly problematic

in many ways because

you end up pretending

to be somebody you're not

in order to fit in

and i can see now that's been a pattern

for most of my life i've not been myself

i've tried to be someone else i've

i've tried to

do things to get validation and love

from other people and

i've got to say it's only been in the

last years where i've managed to kind of

let that go

another piece there which i think is

really relevant to your question is

because education was such

a big thing

you know because mum and dad dad in

particular so much discrimination he

faced

right when he came here in his job he

had to change career change speciality

as a doctor because he just couldn't

advance and so ultimately he ended up

moving to a speciality he didn't like he

didn't enjoy

to give his family security

so what do they want to do they want

their children to not have to go through

that

so

i grew up with this kind of idea that

i'm only loved

when i'm top of the class right i'd come

home if i got 99 in an exam my mum would

say why didn't you get 100.

what if i came out

uh with 19 out of 20 in a test okay what

happened why didn't you get 20.

now what's really interesting about that

is i'm not criticizing my parents right

i love my parents i think they've

brought me up really well

but it but it speaks to a situation

there's different perceptions right so

i spoke to mum recently i said hey mom

why

why did you ask me those questions you

know why did you push me so hard

and she said to me because i knew you

were capable i wanted you to be the best

that you could be

so mom did it with me from a place of

love right she wanted the best for me

but walk around to the other side of

that story i internalize this idea that

unless i get 100

unless i win

i'm not good enough i'm not loved

and i can now see that drove me my

entire life this need for

external validation what are other

people saying about you people say nice

things you feel good people say nasty

things you are literally broken inside

so

you know a lot there that i've come to

terms with over the past few years but

for me understanding that i can go back

and rewrite those stories put a

different

perspective on all those events

has given me this real sense of freedom

calm contentness

and ultimately

you know it's resulted in me feeling

really really happy

one of the things you

you've said is that

you believe the purpose of life is

really finding out who you are because

once you find out who you are then you

can go on the journey of finding out

what is what it is you want so my

question for you is

what did you then pursue as a

consequence of believing that external

validation was

true validation that was true truly your

purpose what was your

how were you misguided or led astray

yeah so i went to

university at edinburgh at edinburgh

medical school you know left home having

the time of my life partying you know

whatever you know people when they they

get that sort of sense of freedom for

the first time

a lot of my uni life was spent playing

in bands right so music is a big part of

who i am what i do

um you know so i'd be practicing layers

we'll be playing loads and loads of gigs

and then it all changed i must have been

20 21.

i think mum phoned me at like 10 30 at

night and said hey look dad's in

intensive care the doctors don't think

he's gonna

make it through the nights can you come

back home and i remember seeing dads in

the incentive care unit and you know he

ended up surviving the nights

his kidneys failed he went on kidney

dialysis for the next 15 years but

basically

dad getting ill changed

the trajectory of my adult life so yes i

was in edinburgh i finished off i worked

there for a couple of years but my mind

was always back in the northwest

and i moved back to the northwest which

is one of the reasons i live there now

to help my mum and my brother look after

dad and it was incredibly stressful

particularly in the last years before

dad i had really really stressful and i

would i would escape periodically so

coming back to your question about how

does that impacted me i wanted to do

well like i got my specialist exams i

uh want i got good jobs in prestigious

hospitals right i got those things i

thought that's what i'm doing i'm doing

the right thing

and then when dad died in 2013 march

2013

it was like there was a big hole in my

life and so

i would just go walking

i was just trying to make sense of

everything and the truth is the amount i

learnt from dad's death

was just profound i'm not sure i would

have learned these things i was asking

myself whose life are you really leading

i don't regret any of it

now that dad's not here i'm glad i spent

so much time with him

but i think it was a real cost to me

my inner peace my inner well-being

and dad's death here's the irony stephen

the things that my dad would have been

proudest of right

indian immigrant to the uk his son with

his own bbc one show in 2015 2016 right

his son with four sunday times

bestsellers dad would have

literally

been phoning all the relatives you know

being the embarrassing dad telling

everyone dad never got to see any of it

but i know if that was still alive

i'd be doing none of it

why

if i was still in the mindset that i was

when my dad was sick

i wouldn't have any time to engage in

this stuff like life

if there's anyone listening to this

who's a carer for someone in their life

they'll know what i'm talking about you

you don't have time you don't have

physical time you don't have mental

space

it just

it encompasses the entirety of your life

you're just trying to keep your head

above water you're just

trying to

get through day to day

you are fire fighting so i wouldn't have

had the

the physical time but also

i think a lot of what i'm able to give

to people these days

through books through podcasts through

you know one-on-one with patients

is the learnings you know that the

learnings i've acquired

from going through dad's death from

going through that pain from coming out

the other side from going what can i

learn from this

so

i'm not sure

if what i would have had to offer people

back then would have been

as valuable as what i feel i have to

offer them now

why did you choose medicine was that

again part of this broader thing of

thinking that was success and that would

be

that would satisfy parents or you know

society because again there's a bit of a

stereotype isn't there there with a

indian immigrant coming over and you

know when i sit here with um people from

that that background typically the

narrative is and to be fair in my case

as well as an african immigrant that

successes doctor lawyer

etc

100

you know

it is a stereotype but but it's largely

true for many families you know

as an indian immigrants child in the uk

the three careers that generally are

available to you are dots a lawyer

engineer

that's what is valued

of course just to be clear that's not

every single family but just by and

large

i think that's true

but i tell you this stephen i know loads

of them who are so unhappy as doctors

so unhappy they compensate for the

tedium of their work

right by getting smashed on a friday and

saturday nights

right and they wonder why they can't

give up boozing or why they enjoy it so

much well because that's a symptom

it's not the drinking isn't the problem

the drinking is a symptom

you don't enjoy your job

you've gone into the wrong career

because you thought it was what you

should do sometimes you're stuck now in

your 30s you've got a mortgage

you know you've got

a lease on your car you feel trapped

but you can free yourself from that trap

you you absolutely can but you have to

be honest you have to get to know who

you currently are now

before you've got any hope

of becoming the person that you i didn't

want to be

it's so unbelievably true in every way i

mean so much of that i can relate to for

so many reasons and

you know you were talking there about

your your almost your parents missed

place love what you've clearly managed

to figure out later in your life is that

actually came from a place of love yeah

that's why i call it misplaced love

because they were trying to protect you

because they loved you

but it turns out that

that

misplaced love what it's doing is it's

stopping you from being your truest self

and the long term consequences of that

when you end up living someone else's

life is what you've spoken to there the

symptoms of

addiction and drinking and impulsive

behavior that we see in people so my

overall conclusion there was this urgent

need as soon as possible in your life to

get in touch with exactly who you are

and defend it at all costs

at all if you can do it at 16 if you're

45 and listening to this

now is the the second best time yeah i

mean

i've got so much to say on that um

you're never too late

to start on this journey

but how does someone start on that

journey right

i think it comes down to

values

right

values is what

i think what sews it all up together

right so

you know for this new book i've created

this new model of happiness i call core

happiness

so core happiness has three components

alignment contentment and control we can

talk about those if you want

but one of those legs is alignment

alignment is when

your

inner values and your external actions

are the same when the person who you

want to be inside and the person you are

actually being in the world are one and

the same that's one component it's not

everything but it's one component

so if someone has heard what we're

talking about say okay i want to start

i'm not living the life that i want to

lead but i don't know where to start

there's this exercise in the book called

the identity menu and the goal is really

that you

go through and i picked number three

because i think it's quite a um a

realistic number for people out of the

list of all these possible identities

and values

which three do you think

feel

kind of the most true to you and i've

been doing this for a little while and

the three that have been pretty static

with me for the past few months now i'd

say and they're right at the top of my

instagram profile because i think this

is what i want to give to the world and

say let's

lead with our values

integrity curiosity and compassion

so this is who i am

right i'm not

a doctor i'm not a father

now i i really i think this is such an

important point that i've been thinking

a lot about the last few years

i have a role as a doctor i have a role

as a father but it's not who i am

because when we cling too tightly to our

identities

we put ourselves in a very fragile

position let's say

you know i go over i'm the doctor you

know i'm dr chatterjee you know when i i

sort of absorb that and i think that's

who i am then what happens

if i get fired

right what happens if i get sick and i

can't work as a doctor what happens when

i retire this this is real this happens

to people they lose their sense of who

they are

what about my role as a father

right

to be really clear

me bringing up my kids well is one of

the most important things to me more

important than my work 100

but being a good father is not who i am

if i cling too tightly to that what

happens

when my kids are teenagers

and they get annoyed and they call me a

crap dad

i've seen this happen i've had patients

come in

say oh they call me a crap mom but you

know that's all i do i i do everything

for them i've given everything up for

them it's like wait a minute

you are much more than your roles

you know let's talk about cars right

you said when you were 20 you wrote down

what you wanted right

there's nothing wrong with having a nice

car

the problem comes for your happiness at

least

when you identify

with that car where that car says

something about you and the problem is

you drive around i don't mean you one

drives around in their flash

bmw let's say

and they think you know that says

something about me who i am what i'm

saying if you lose your job what happens

if you prang it what happens if you have

a divorce and you can't afford it

anymore

you go from what i call core happiness

to junk happiness junk happiness is what

many of us think happiness is

right we think it's that momentary hit

of pleasure

you know buying something online

instagram uh chocolate bar uh hit of

booze right these things can be

pleasurable things they may have their

role from time to time but don't mistake

that for being

real core happiness

core happiness is i think what we are

chasing but i think we misdefine it we

think it's something it's not happiness

it's not a destination that we one day

get to right it's a direction that you

can choose to take in life it's a choice

right

i heard your conversation with mo in the

hotel room last night which was

fantastic so good

and i agree with what you and me was

saying happiness is a choice

when you understand what happiness

really is what is it

it's not a thing

that you can get to

it's not something that you can

pursue directly it's something that

ensues when you do

the right things

and the right things for me

are when you focus on the three

i call call happiness this three-legged

stool alignment contentment control you

can apply it to anything in life i i

think that's what happiness is and i

think we are pursuing it like people say

we shouldn't be

we shouldn't be going after happiness we

should be going after meaning have you

heard that yeah yeah all the time right

i have a different perspective

meaning and purpose

is really important no question

but i don't think that's happiness it's

meaning

right

it's a necessary ingredient

for happiness but it's not happiness in

and of itself and i don't mean to be

controversial but let's say

um

a soldier fighting in world war ii

against the nazis

right

one might make the case that

that has meaning

it doesn't mean they're happy hundred

percent right so meeting hummus is

subtly different have you heard of the

japanese concept of ikigai yes yeah yeah

right i love ikigai this idea that

um

you know we should be looking we not

should be but we could be looking for

something in our life that we enjoy

that we're good at

that's what the world needs

and what pays us money

right the kind of holy grail does it

were and i remember writing about this

in my second book on stress i remember

the book came out and i was in london i

was giving

a talk

and at the end of the talk we were doing

q and a

i remember the back right of the hall

this young lady had a hand up and she

said dr shastaji

i'm an 18 year old japanese student

living in london

i've grown up with the concept of ikigai

my entire life and frankly i found it

demoralizing demotivating too high a bar

for me to get to

and that stuck with me mate because i

thought since then okay that's so

interesting because i love this concept

of icky guy

she grows up with it and finds it

off-putting

i think the problem with

these grand ideas of meaning purpose

ikigai

as much as i like them

they're not for everyone someone someone

might be hearing that in a call center

right now they don't like their job

they're doing it and they're like what

icky guy you're kidding me mate i just

want to get through and and pay the

bills right so i think i bring it all

back is this core happiness store that

i've created is it applicable in all

situations i think it is because if you

look at it through the lens of what

we're talking about this comes under

alignment

so that chat working in the call center

they do the exercise and they figure out

kindness is something that's really

important to them

then

if on the way to work

they stop in the coffee shop and they're

kind to the barista

they get on the bus to work and they're

kind to the bus driver they go to the

job they don't particularly like but

they are kind to their colleagues and

their boss

they're living an aligned life they're

living with meaning it doesn't mean that

the job that they're in currently is the

job that they love and they're going to

be in forever but they're living in

harmony with who they are and that's

going to mean that meaning and purpose

come naturally as a byproduct

so i want people to really focus on

alignment

it's one pillar of happiness and i think

your meaning and purpose will come can

you talk to me about control as well

i thought long and hard about this word

control

and i am denied was it the right word to

use and i spoke to some of my patients i

suspect some of my friends

i don't really think it is when we

understand it's about what are the

things that i can do

in my life that gives me a sense of

control we know from the scientific

research when you have a sense of

control

right you have better relationships you

have longer relationships you're

healthier you have lower stress levels

you live longer

so it's that sense of control and and

that could mean many things to to

different people you know for me

i'm really big on morning routines right

i know for me if i get up early if i

have time to myself to have a little

routine

i've i've almost got this like resilient

bubble around me doesn't matter what's

going on in the world doesn't matter how

bad work may or or may not get that day

i've got an element of control because

i've i've sort of nurtured that routine

for myself so that's one that's one way

that people can think about control and

another way people might want to think

about control is

there's a and there's a chapter in the

book called talk to strangers

which is basically this idea that

actually

relationships are very important of

course but there's kind of two different

kinds of relationships that are the deep

nurturing intimate relationships but

there's also the

there's also those kind of

almost trivial interactions that we have

day to day

right so when you say hi to the barista

or you know i said hi to your work

colleagues when i got here

those little things

they are not trivial there's a network

in your brain called the sociometer

right it's constantly detecting

your external world for threats and when

it receives positive information like a

smile like a you know a bit of a nod a

handshake

you know it it sort of relaxes you your

stress levels go down you feel a sense

of connection with the world around you

coming back to control

you feel that the external world is safe

i've got degree of control there is

order in the world let's focus

on these simple things you can do each

day if you

say hi to the amazon delivery driver and

smile at them say thank you to the

barista and say a few nice words to them

say hi to the bus driver and smile at

them thank the postmen

you are working on your happiness

you know it seems trivial but it's not

the research is so so clear right

because it gives you a sense of control

second pillar of the three

and we've got to touch on the third

pillar before i start getting into all

of these topics because so it's so

interesting that these are the things

that you know we're talking about today

because i think i spent all weekend

um reading about studies on the

importance of you call it the sociometer

in the brain but just that that thing

that connects you with

your tribe but please do get into the

third point which i think you said was

contentment contentment yeah yeah

contentment is

about feeling calm and that sense of

peace when you're at peace with your

life and you're at peace with your

decisions so what things in your life

give you that sense of contentment

and i really feel it's these three

things

when you put them all together

the side effect of doing them

is you're happy yeah right but but also

happiness is not

often what we think it is that that big

billboard image of the

the happy family on the beach with a

smile on their face in the ocean behind

them right

that to me

is not happiness that's a pleasurable

experience yeah it can form part of a

happy life

but that's not happiness you can be sad

and happy

the way i look at happiness core

happiness

i was thinking about this last week i

was chatting to someone who

who was going through grief

you know someone very close to them had

died

and you know we were having a really

long deep conversation

but they were present with their grief

and they were able to share with me

exactly how they were feeling no masks

on at all in terms of these kind of

metaphorical masks that we put on

they were just being themselves

that's called happiness

because they're aligned

right their inner thoughts are i feel

sad upset

frustrated for my loss

and their external actions

are completely aligned with that

so i kind of feel

really what happiness is about

is living an intentional life

it's about taking the time to understand

who you are

defining for yourself what happiness is

or what success looks like not using

society's definition you post a few days

ago don't use society's definition of

fun

right that's a great post you know just

because society says to have fun you

need to go to a bar have loud music on

and get drunk well if you like to sit at

home in the bath reading a good book

that that's great if you don't that's

fine as well but it's got to be you it's

your values so

i can't tell someone what they need to

necessarily do in all aspects of their

life to be happy

but be intentional about your life

my girlfriend came upstairs yesterday

when i was having a shower and she said

to me that she tried the heel protein

shake which lives on my fridge over

there and she said it's amazing low

calories you get your 20 odd grams of

protein you get your 26 vitamins and

minerals and it's nutritionally complete

in the protein space there's lots of

things but it's hard to find something

that is nice especially when consumed

just with water and that is

nutritionally complete and that has

about 100 calories in total while also

giving you your 20 grams of protein

if you haven't tried the cured protein

product do give it a try the salted

caramel one if you put some ice cubes in

it and you put it in a blender and you

try it is as good as pretty much any

milkshake on the market just mixed with

water it's been a game changer for me

because i'm trying to drop my calorie

intake and i'm trying to be a little bit

more healthy with my diet so this is

where heel fits in my life thank you for

making a product that i actually like

the salted caramel is my favorite i've

got the banana one here which is the one

my girlfriend likes but for me salted

caramel is

the one

you know when people give um advice in

their books and you know when i do it

online with my content there's something

which i

realize

has to be done first so as much as you

could have told me to get into alignment

the the counter force that was saying

[ __ ] that was this deep sense of

insecurity and that piece of work i had

to do as you describe it to heal first

before i could start looking with a

clear view

at um the way i was living my life

because if you'd asked steve butler at

18 years old what his values were

you know he would have said lamborghini

next question he would have said money

right i know there's not even values but

that's what he would have said right so

i'm interested to know how you think

someone can go on the journey of healing

um and understanding themselves in

self-awareness which i think is the

foundation and all the pillars you

mentioned of happiness

it's a great question um

i don't think it's going to be

you listen to this

conversation you watch it on youtube you

get the book whatever i don't think it's

that you do that and then you're like oh

i've got it i've figured it out now i

know my values okay great no this is a

journey

it's the best journey you'll ever take

but it's a journey it's not a one hit

the first step in any change

is awareness

all behaviors serve and needs

where every behavior we have is there

for a reason

you can't just i can't tell the patient

you should drink less alcohol

without helping them understand

why do they need to be drinking that

alcohol in the first place

right it took me ages to to figure this

out the dots i think why why why am i

struggling why do they stop for two

weeks then they they get back on the

horse it's like

oh we've not dealt with the underlying

needs it's like new year's resolutions

right

no one has a problem going spinning four

times a week for the first two weeks in

january

but third week fourth week

when life gets busy and life gets

stressed or they can give up booze for a

couple of weeks

and they just can't keep it going it's

like you know i need it to unwind from

my work day that's because your alcohol

consumption

is a symptom

of the way you're living your life if

you want to change that you can try and

white knuckle it and reduce it

sure you might be successful for a short

period of time but you'll always go back

unless you

understand the behavior

same thing kind of works for food

cravings a lot of the time so someone's

listening to this and they go okay i

want to know what to do

but even if they're starting to

challenge themselves already and go

you know i'm pretty interested what

these two guys are saying you know i

don't kind of know what my values are

but

i've got a feeling that i'm not living

life in accordance with them like i

think i'm chasing the wrong stuff but i

don't quite know what to do about that

even that awareness is progress

right so i think it's really important

we we can't always just find out get to

the solution go and live happy lives it

doesn't work like that

so step one is awareness now if you have

that awareness

and you want to go further

a simple thing you might want to do is

what i call the identity menu in the

book you might literally want to

try and write down three values or even

one value start with one right start

with one right just write down one value

and then

in a week's time ask yourself how often

in that week did you live in accordance

with that how often in that week did you

live

in a way that was not in harmony with

that okay it's not about beating

yourself up it's not about holding

yourself to this

unattainable ideal it's just ask

yourself the question just gently start

compassionately probing

what's going on

right so i think that's a useful

exercise and build up to three values if

you can

and you know these things need

reassessing the other exercise i like

which i think is really practical

it's got two parts it's called define

your happiness habits

and write your happy ending right and if

if you want we could try actually just

do it if you're right for us

so i would ask you stephen

think of three things

that really bring you a sense of

happiness deep calm and contentment and

make you really feel good

um

so i think one of them which i've

actually read about in your book is

about

serving others and helping others

it feels to me like a

a happiness rush or a sense of

fulfillment or contentment that i can't

seem to get anywhere else the other one

is like pursuing my artistic interests

so things like when i can see my djing

equipment over in the corner there when

i do my djing or when i give give time

to myself to write or create okay i call

that like expression that's like yeah um

and then i think the third one is is

what i think you call in your book like

movement

so moving so um

exercise when i go to the gym and i and

i'm not sure why that is because this

might fit into a number of categories

because in in part it's like meditative

when i'm on the running machine or on

the peloton it's really meditative on

the other part it's has there's

obviously physiological impacts and

biological impacts of the exercise and

then on the third part it might just be

because i'm giving time to myself so i'd

say those are the three that came to

mind straight away yeah okay so you've

you've picked what i call three

happiness habits yeah right so each week

and please correct me if i've

misinterpreted any of this

um each week if you could do something

that serves others

if you could engage in your artistic um

passions

and you could do a form of movement you

enjoy yeah there are three things that

would give you you know real sense of

happiness so i believe

okay no no i i think they probably are

and i'll share my name it's just second

seconds let's get to the second part of

the exercise

okay it's called write your happy ending

so

imagine now you're on your deathbed yeah

okay so at the end of this is it right

look back on your life

what are three things you will want to

have done so that's really interesting

because it's funny because the answers

are different

um one of them is definitely about

connecting with others my friends so

like my friends my family my niece

that's like that's in fact so central to

my happiness

um the third is helping others that

gives me a real sense of um that i spent

my time in a worthwhile way

and

sorry the second and the third would be

the third is a as a personal one it's

the feeling that i've i've

done my potential

justice yeah lived up to your potential

lived up to my potential done myself

justice yeah yeah

i love them i mean first of all thanks

for sharing that

um

so what's really interesting when you do

the second part now

you can go back

and redo the first one and

what's really beautiful i think there's

i think there's a real deceptive

simplicity

with this exercise it gives you the sort

of granular

day-to-day

look at your life and happiness and it

gives you the 30 000 foot kind of big

picture view and you can see if they're

aligned so if you do the three happiness

habits each week doing something for

someone else

sorry serving others

engaging creatively

and um

uh you know moving

will that get you to your happy ending

no

so i was missing one you're missing one

yeah the relationship piece yeah exactly

yeah and so this is not about catching

anyone out this is something i think we

can all benefit from myself including on

a regular basis

it doesn't mean you can automatically

change the entire trajectory of your

life but it does mean this is about

intention right it's like if that's what

the goal is at the end

well like for me

i know

three happiness habits for me are what

number one spending undistracted time

with my wife and my children each week

that's really important

number two doing something that helps

improve the health and well-being of

others

really important number three

having time

to pursue things that i'm passionate

about that's kind of my three

i'm doing the the

the final piece the 30 000 foot yeah so

i know

each week then for happiness habits if i

have let's say five meals

around the dinner table with my wife and

kids

that's

where there's no phones and we're

totally undistracted and in the moment

right i know that i'm i'm doing that

i know if i record an episode of my

podcast each week i know that i'm doing

something that's going to improve the

lives of other people

and if i have time to

i don't know play guitar play snooker um

you know whatever you know i've got all

kinds of creative passions

each week then i know that if i just

consistently do that just a little bit

each week i'm getting to the happy

ending that i want

and for that person who may be listening

to this and struggling that may be

something else that they can start doing

you know and what's really interesting

stephen is we think we think we're all

quite different there was a study from

last year which showed us that actually

despite all our differences we feel as

if we're being our true authentic selves

when we're being kind

compassionate

doing things for others enthusiastic

presence and in the moment right all of

us and what i love about these exercises

they really bring awareness and

attention to your life you could say

yeah i really value health i really

value my health and well-being and then

they can assess their life and go i do

nothing each week to support that i say

that's who i am but i'm not

you can say as i did for many years i

valued my friends you know what i got so

busy with work i wasn't making time to

see them

and again it's not about beating

yourself up this is really really

important point this is about honesty

and awareness right you're never going

to become the person who you want to be

until you know who is the person you are

right now it's not about guilt it's not

about shame it's about just transparency

going okay all right i'm not aligned at

the moment okay fine no problem i'm

going to take one step this week i'm

going to

make an effort once a week i'm going to

phone one of my best mates just for 10

minutes

just to say hi

even that

is

it's helping you become more aligned

it's helping you get to that happy

ending so

you know maybe there's some useful stuff

in there for people to kind of take and

actually start applying it's so funny

because when you said that exercise

you know i could spend a lot of time as

i think i have in the past trying to

figure out who i was and the techniques

are complicated and they're largely

influenced by um

who society thinks i should be and what

my values are the minute i did that

exercise it was so clear

it was so unbelievably easy to do and so

clear and then as you said when we

zoomed out to my deathbed and said like

what are the things in your last days

that you're going to value

to to see how obvious it was that i'd

left out something so

so so fundamentally important which is

like my friends my family my

relationships

in my sort of you know the things that

make me happy was like alarming to me it

was like how are you not

living in alignment mentally how how did

you not know that that was so

fundamental

i think you just beautifully illustrate

seeing that we can see it yeah

brilliantly in other people oh hundred

percent man i could see and you i could

see it in my patients but you know what

it's pretty hard sometimes to put the

mirror up and see it in yourself

do you know what i mean

i think the other you know i think you

you've asked a brilliant question what

can that person do

i think the other the other thing

and probably

arguably the biggest this is the biggest

thing i think that's had the most impact

on my happiness and wider health over

the past years

is this understanding

of perspective

that there are multiple perspectives

on the same situation and i think it's a

really important point for people to get

so let's say someone's stuck in their

life

i think look i don't know what to do i'm

trapped here right uh i i don't know i

get up i go to work you know i try and

look after my family you know i don't

know this stuff about values and all

that kind of stuff okay fine

if you just forget all that stuff for a

moment and go okay let me just see if i

can start broadening my perspective

because once you start broadening your

perspective and start seeing things from

somebody else's perspective it changes

everything so one of the ways i do this

is to understand that

this phrase

yeah i'll go as far as this

this phrase has had the most impact on

my health and happiness above anything

else

if i was the other person

i would be doing exactly the same as

them

again a very simple phrase but when you

really really get it you're basically

saying if i was that person

with their childhood

their

parents

with their life experiences

i would be acting in exactly the same

way as them

and if you think you wouldn't i would i

would

very gently invite you to consider that

this may be your ego talking

if they could act differently they would

and what that does is it brings such a

deep sense of compassion to every single

day of your life you can start to have a

perspective for them for example it

could be maybe their daughter was sick

last night and up and they didn't get

much sleep maybe they think they're

going to lose their job when they're

they're late for work right whatever it

is it doesn't matter the truth doesn't

matter right for your happiness the

truth i would say doesn't matter

again i don't mean to be controversial

but i think some people will take that i

think that's quite controversial you're

a football fan right there was a study

done

football match one incident

right um two sets of fans they were

interviewed about the incidents

both of them

had a completely different perspective

on the same incident

right you we all know that there's a

foul or you know one team that's

definitely foul that's a foul and a

yellow card the other side that was

nothing you didn't touch him he died we

know that anyone who's got a partner

right or had a partner

you have a row you have a disagreement

well depending on which side at the

table you're sitting on you have a

completely different perspective of the

same situation

right so i say in any situation choose a

happiness story

right i'll give you another example

one of the most profound conversations i

have ever had on my podcast was with

this lady called edith eager

when i spoke to her last year she was 93

years old

at the age of 16

she was getting ready that evening she

had a date with her boyfriends

knock on the door

her parents her and her sister get put

on a train taken to auschwitz

within a couple of hours of getting

there

edith's parents get murdered

somehow she gets through

the next few years she survives what she

has taught me

is that

you can always create a different story

on any single event

she said when she was in auschwitz she

was totally free

the prisoners they were free

they were the ones who won't be able to

act and behave the way that they wanted

to they were trapped in her mind she was

free

after her parents had died she had to

dance for the guards

right

and she said the last thing my mom said

to me

was edith nobody can ever take away from

you what you put inside your mind

so she's dancing there she knows her

parents are dead but in her mind

she said

wrong and i was dancing in budapest

opera house

there was a full orchestra there's full

crowds i was dancing there

right the other thing she said to me

is i've been in auschwitz but i can tell

you the greatest prison

you will ever live in is the prison you

create inside your minds

so

for people who are listening who

struggle to forgive

who struggle to see the other side who

see someone

put a tweet up and then spend an hour

getting agitated and frustrated

i

humbly

suggest to you if edith eager can write

a different story

in the hell of auschwitz

i kind of feel

we probably can as well

it's so true that

the greatest harm we cause to ourselves

is is our own

negative or illogical or

self-harming stories as you were saying

that i was thinking about even the

stories i've i've told myself in the

last 24 hours or the last week which

have like tormented me mentally in the

sense of they've just like bothered me

unnecessarily and how much of a choice

it was for me to focus on those stories

if you know what i mean like

as you say like someone tweeting

something or leaving a comment and then

that you then give

48 hours of your happiness to just this

when you could as you've expressed so

eloquently choose compassion for the

person and

you know you could you could choose to

try and find the best intentions in any

behavior right yeah

the way i i put it in the book there's a

little section called make everyone a

hero

i think it's such a great sentiment in

life whenever something happens you

don't like make them a hero

make them a hero i challenge people try

that for seven days if your life has not

been improved in any way fine forget it

say the guy was splashing nonsense i'm

not interested i'm getting back to my

cynical nature i'm gonna see the worst

in everyone right fine

it's up to people make them a hero the

person who cuts you up find a way to

make them a hero in your heads

right

march 2020 what happened

everything's getting locked down

toilet roll shortage on the shelves

right so what do people do now i

understand that was a very unique

situation people are getting triggered

people are getting scared i understand

that but let's look at what was

happening

people were bad mouthing um who are

these people who are taking all these

toilet rolls it's so inconsiderate you

know they shouldn't be doing that okay

okay fine

let's just see could we write a

different story what might have happened

well it could be that every shopper that

day

took one extra roll and so by the end of

the day when the tv cameras came in

no one actually did anything that bad

they just took one extra roll

and the supermarket stock was all

planned around

average

shopping habits and behaviors okay

um it could be

that someone was really really scared

and anxious and let's say they've got

ulcerative colitis and they have to go

to the toilet 20 times a day and they're

petrified so maybe they did go and buy

ten packs or maybe let's take it to

another extreme maybe

someone is skint

right they've got no money they've got

no prospects in life they thought you

know what i can make a fortune here

right so i'm gonna get them all i'm

gonna sell them on ebay okay

whatever you think

of that if you can have compassion for

that person and understand if i was them

i'd be doing the same thing

it changes everything it changes your

physiology it changes your perspective

and why i think that's so powerful

particularly now more than ever stephen

like we

seemingly we're in a very divided and

toxic world

right seemingly

what we need is more compassion

right but how do you get compassion we

can't just say

you know i want to be more compassionate

that can work for some people use this

right

make them a hero

ask say to yourself if i were them i'd

be doing the same thing

you know it really helps humanity it

helps you feel better individually but

it will help connect you with people

around you people who've got different

views and perspectives it allows you to

sit alongside them so this is probably

one of the things that i use the most

along with which sort of goes along with

this

um

and this is sort of the big heading in

chapter 5 of the book it's called seek

out friction

right look this is when you become a

master of your own happiness

right

the whole goal of my work at the moment

is to

i don't want

people to be dependent on the actions of

other people for them to be happy right

if you constantly getting triggered and

and frustrated by the tone of your

colleagues emails or the way that your

partner is talking to you right

if you're waiting for them to change in

order for you to be happy

well you could be waiting a long time if

we go back to my core happiness stool

you've lost control you have no control

because you're dependent on other people

so

i

talk about this as social friction

right just as in in the gym you know you

can do physical friction you can push up

you can press up against your body and

you get stronger i'm saying you can

press up against other people and also

get stronger so every time you get

triggered i actually do this i do this

every single day

let's say let's say social media

let's say you get a negative comment

let's say i get negative comments

in the past five years ago when i you

know was first on bbc one about seven

years ago now actually

um i would have got triggered got so

frustrated i would have felt really bad

what's going on why is this happening

you know all i'm trying to do is help

people would have created this narrative

now

it's like ah

why is this triggering me

is there some truth to it that i can

learn from

or is it because the other person's

having a bad day and they're taking it

out on me

and you become a master if you practice

this every day right because what

happens is that you take control over

your inner

thoughts you take control of your own

happiness because it's like okay it

doesn't matter you're being given

opportunities every day to learn

something

for me i can i can speak but i know this

to be true for most people

it's because it's it's pressed on one of

your insecurities

right when you get truly secure in who

you are

what other people say

it doesn't affect you like i've noticed

this in my own life right

we started off the conversation talking

about external validation

like the problem when you need external

validation for your self-worth

is that when you get it you feel great

or you think you feel great

it's a very fragile uh way of feeling

great but when you get criticism you go

to the other extreme where you feel

worthless and you turn to whatever your

junk happiness habit is instagram

gambling drink porn whatever it is right

you turn to that as a way of

compensating but when you do the work

when you look for social friction

and you allow it to become your teacher

you start to process your insecurities

and then if people praise me now on

social media say oh wrong in that

podcast changed my life or you know your

book has really had an impact on me and

my mental well-being

i

like hearing that

but it doesn't artificially elevate my

ego like it might have done a few years

ago but at the same time if i get

criticism

right if i get criticism it doesn't drag

me down to those depths either i can i'm

just a lot more level

did that make sense

100

as you were saying that once again my

mind

sat there and thought how does he know

all of this stuff and how has he gotten

to a place where he can be so empathetic

and he can understand others to the

point that you can as you say make them

a hero and practice that what seems like

a pretty radical form of empathy in

situations where others would resort to

blame and um you know antagonism and

attacking others and it appears to me

that is because you've understood

yourself and actually being able to see

the you know what people might describe

as the insecurities or the flaws in

others or the triggers and others

is only possible once you've understood

yourself and it's funny because when i

put certain things on instagram i know

that i'm going to get backlash so if i

say

personal responsibility is really

important you can choose for example in

the case of what you've said there you

can choose to make someone else a hero

if someone cuts you off it's a choice

um as to whether you're you're happy or

you're triggered i know

there's a small proportion of people who

will slide into my dms and go you're

wrong if they've cut me off that's

forced me to be unhappy or i'm not at

fault for being unhappy right

and it tends to be the case that those

that are able to make that person a hero

or to practice empathy are those that

have actually done the work to

understand why

they are triggered why they were

insecure and why they react in the way

they do so again it feels to me that

this really underlying foundational

piece of work that is the catalyst for

being able to do all of these amazing

things that you've written about and

that you understand again is that like

that awareness as you described it

yeah i think he's spot on stephen

it also comes from

having lived through the mental turmoil

of

taking a different path of

blaming others

and seeing yourself as a victim and

often we absorb these sort of patterns

from our parents right

i can see clearly now how mum and dad

would react to the world and i could see

how i absorbed a lot of that and i

thought that's how you show up with the

world

but we can all choose to approach the

world differently

just because you have approached the

world a certain way

for all the years you've been on this

planet let's say until this conversation

right

everyone listening or watching has a

choice at the end of this conversation

they can decide whether to act on

something they've heard

or not

can i just press you on that one on that

point there about your parents because i

think it's it touched on something that

i really relate to in my

in one of my parents which is um

and this might be an immigrant thing my

mom was pretty badly racially abused for

for you know living in plymouth she's a

nigerian woman you know i really didn't

see anyone else in my in my city that

looked like her if i'm honest once upon

a you know once in a while i might once

a year but she was an anomaly in

appearance she was a nigerian woman with

long you know nigerian hair

um

and i grew up i have to say because she

was often racially abused

seeing a kind of bias in her towards

thinking that

the world was out to get her

and

um

i don't think that served her if i'm

gonna be completely honest if you know

what i mean there that and you see in

other people that kind of sense that

they are a victim

do i ever

you know

i would say this is how

my mum

very much has shown up with the world

and

similar stories you know there is all

kinds of reasons for that

and you absorb that you think that's the

way you know that's what your parents

how they react it's often what you

absorb as a child you think that's the

way so i can't believe they did that

they they did that differently

i would feel differently

and

it's really understanding that you have

a choice

in how you show the world you have a

choice in how you feel about a situation

you can

choose a different story mum to be fair

to my mum's now 81 she's pretty immobile

uh me or my brother give her breakfast

on most days um

she is changing

right she it's so wonderful to see

sometimes it's like

well done mum like

you're not it's just so wonderful to see

that

any one of us can change

at any age right we can make subtle

choices small things that make a big

difference you know i also grew up very

protective you know

you'd see things that weren't there you

know man if someone cut me up in my 20s

i'm not sure i should even

say what went through my mind right

you know i wasn't calm and content

you know at all i'd get triggered

i think they were

you know whatever you know i may even

shout in my car

you know

uh for the sake of my career should

probably just not go any further but i'm

just joking you know i'm saying i

probably said things in my head

or scream them out that i'm not

particularly proud of now

but i can see that i didn't have the

emotional maturity

and the emotional awareness

to do anything different

what is that what is that that vic is

victimhood in your view often like an

ill thought through form of self-defense

that because i'm thinking about why say

our per se our mothers who are subject

to a lot of abuse or whatever why did

they make the choice that the world was

not on their side and how because that

seems like maybe in the

the short term it might help you so if

something happens to you or you know

you know you're unsuccessful in business

um you can say well it was the bank

they're racist

um how how what is the cycle the

psychology there and the human that's

choosing to default to victimhood and

you see it in a lot of my i see it a lot

of my friends actually when they fail at

something it appears that they use they

use blame as a way to protect their

self-esteem or i think you just nailed

it that that's what it is it's

protection it's it's to give you that

feeling of safety that's what we're

always craving we want to feel safe so

it makes you feel safe actually it's not

it's not me

it's out there it's not in here it's out

there that's the problem if that changed

i think that's part of it

so but is that because those people

can't

they could they can't deal with more

that they're too they're too fragile

that they can't deal with more

what they perceive to be

evidence of their inadequacy

yeah

absolutely and it also comes down to

any trauma

that they may be carrying from their

childhoods this is the other thing i've

learned stephen is that

you know without going to details on mum

and dads um that i don't have permission

to share you know there were traumatic

things that happened early on in mum's

life

and so now i can look at that with

a deep level of compassion that oh

that's why

mum behaves the way she does because

actually she got programmed at a young

age

that i have to be a certain way

right and then you you pass it on and i

think you said about your mum and my mum

let me share something from from my life

that maybe just fits in there a little

bit which is

we create these behavioral patterns

usually in childhood

right because we want the love and

affection of our parents we want the

validation because they're our

caregivers right we need that to feel

safe

so

touching what we said earlier

i knew that if i came out with 100

there'd be smiles at home right

everyone's happy wrong is done well

right

so

i internalize that i think that's the

way to be loved in life

fast forward i'm at university and

there's a passion here in all aspects of

life

um

like

whether i was

seven and if i lost at ludo

my mum says i would literally toss the

board up and storm out the room like i

was furious if i lost at ludo

right and it sounds like a funny thing

that your mum embarrasses you with from

thailand no actually now that i've

unpicked it it's actually very serious

i remember i was at uni

maybe second third fourth year at uni

can't remember on a sunday often after

the passing of the friday and saturday

night we'd end up in diane's pool hall

in edinburgh i go with one of my mates

and i'm a pretty decent pool sneaker

player right

if i was ever losing

i'd go into the

toilets and look at myself in the mirror

give myself a talking to you i'll tell

these guys have a little slap on the

face come back out

more often than not i would go on and

then win the match

and i thought i just liked winning and i

was competitive

that was all the story complete nonsense

it wasn't that i liked winning

it was that the pain of losing

was too great because it

it reminds me on a deep primal level

i'm not loved when i lose when i'm not

the best

right so it's that feeling of safety

and here's the other thing

if i did win i wasn't happy that one i

was just happy that i didn't lose

right and then you compensate you don't

realize it it might be a bit more sugar

that evening a few extra beers that

night

a little cheeky trip to the casino on

the way back because you've got this

discomfort

in your body in your soul

right that you need

something you need a junk happiness

habit

to deal with it

we're all going through that

my parents your parents right

they've

they've also had childhood programming

that they're playing at

and i think when we really get that we

can be compassionate

i have to say that was

just outstandingly beautiful the way

you've articulated all of that and it

really did bring me back to this sense

of empathy which links to something you

said earlier which is if i'd gone

through what my mum had gone through

coming from africa

to the uk

you know god knows what age she did i

think maybe 17 having left school and

then having to fight for survival in the

way that my mum did and i what you know

my mum is the single hardest working

person i've ever met my entire life

i would have behaved in the exact same

way yeah and that really it does a

remarkable thing for

your perspective on them

how you know how you view their struggle

and how you view their current behavior

which i think is actually a really good

pathway to engaging with them and then

being able to have conversations and

that's it is such a beautiful sentence

that one of had i been through what

they've been through i would have

behaved in the exact same way and that

is completely true of my mother i did

not

i did not have to struggle in the way

she did because of her struggle

it's true for all of us actually

i think we can all apply that

to every single interaction in our life

and in fact my challenge would be try it

suck it and see see what life

feels like see what your

experience of life

physically viscerally emotionally see

what it feels like when you start to

show up like that day to day

right if you're skeptical okay i hate

your skepticism

my challenge to you if you're skeptical

is try for three days

just try it

because i'm not here to try and convince

people i'm not here to tell people what

to do

i know this has literally transformed

the way i show up with the worlds and

try it with your enemies

right yeah sure try it with your parents

who hopefully you love

trap with your enemies try it with that

person at work

you don't like

try it with that boss

who really pisses you off and

riles you up every time

try it maybe you can't do that straight

away maybe we have to work up to that

this is a skill

right happiness is a skill you can get

better at it but how would you know how

to get better at it when did you get

taught the skill of happiness

i didn't get taught it right i don't

teach it at school

i didn't teach at university i didn't

learn it from my parents i didn't learn

it from society in fact the lessons i

learned from society were that you need

to earn more money you need to get a

better job you need to get a nicer car

nicer holiday those things are signs of

success and therefore happiness

and it's a myth i think that's the

biggest myth we fall for we think that's

what happiness says

success is success happiness is

happiness they can sometimes coincide

but they don't always

but they can do if you back up if you

take a pause you start to do some of the

things that we're talking about you

start to have a bit of time

to reflect

you know

solitude stephen is so important

right every bit of our free time now is

sucked up

like i went to this gorgeous coffee shop

next to your studio just before i came

in right

now i imagine

15 years ago you go into any coffee shop

in london you'd be standing in the queue

you'd be waiting

you know there might be five people in

front of you fine you'll be looking

around you'll be you might bump into

someone you know

you might be daydreaming

now what happens if you go into any

coffee shop

everyone's head down stuck in their

phone

right you're looking you're trying to

catch up with your emails just have a

quick cheeky look on instagram

i'm not criticizing anyone for doing

that but that comes at a cost it means

these little micro moments of downtime

where your brain is trying to solve

problems for you and process life

they're being lost if you're constantly

consuming

right if you're constantly consuming

content from outside whatever it is

even good content

right even

nourishing content if you're constantly

consuming you're not allowing your own

thoughts and emotions to come up

you know every summer now i take a

social media break i tried it two years

ago for the first i think three years

ago for the first time i took a few days

to really get into it then after two

weeks i didn't want to go back on now

i'm not anti-social media right i can

see the value that it has i use it to

try and spread helpful messaging as you

do

but i felt really good and what what i

really experienced even as i allowed

these deep innermost feelings to come

out i started to figure out what i think

what i think not what the world thinks

because that's half the problem going

back to what you said that person who's