could you do me a quick favor if you're

listening to this please hit the follow

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basically that documentary became my own

therapy

she said he's gone

still such a weird thing that people

don't want to talk about but yet is the

biggest killer in men our age roman camp

is truly remarkable and deeply inspiring

it's all about creating

tools

you know in our brain to learn how to

deal with these issues your brain

becomes mike tyson and is just beating

you up and you've not had one boxing

lesson in your life so you just can't do

anything you're just taking it if you

had told me 10 years ago that would be

my job and that's what people know me

for

i honestly would not even know where

that would have even started i'm pleased

that i've got a good core friend group

around me i'm glad that i've got my

parents around me i'm glad that i've

gone out there and i've taught myself

the tools that i need to go and fight

mike tyson in there and and be able to

go up against him

and that's why i feel passionate to be

able to go and do that for kids now

without further ado i'm stephen bartlett

and this is the diary of a ceo i hope

nobody's listening but if you are then

please keep this to yourself

[Music]

roman

hello what were you like as a kid tell

me

as a kid i was

i'd say

verging on um verging on attention

seeker

and yeah always just performing i guess

i loved uh mimicking and like and doing

impressions and things like that like

when i first realized that i could do

impressions

i would do a non-stop and i would i

would go home i'd watch my teachers and

i'd say to my parents oh this is what my

teacher did today and i wouldn't just

say what they said i would

perform it for them

how they did it so i think i was

very much so like a high-energy

kid

i would say

verging on an adhd

kind of assumption but um

it was definitely a big change kind of

when i went through my teenage years

brothers and sisters

older sister 32

[Music]

very different from you

yeah but to be honest like she yeah she

is to be honest she she kind of she's

someone that her name's harley harley

moon

one word very pretentious parents

basically

doesn't necessarily mean anything i

think my parents were

must have been

slightly intoxicated after after the

birth and it was a full moon so they

named her harley moon but kids with

harley moon and roman at that time were

a little bit strange

so yeah just

no greater meaning other than the very

pretentious parents but um yeah she

she's

she's an amazing kind of person i i got

my work ethic from her from your sister

from my sister yeah

my mom and my dad are are

really supportive and and they're always

like

you know there in terms of like anything

i do is great

they're loving it i couldn't ask for

better parents but harley was the first

person i knew that

she went out at 15 and straight away 14

whatever it was was like i need to get

saturday job straight away like she was

the one doing it like she wanted to do

it she was asking my parents when can

she go and do it

and i used to be quite there's part of

me that was a bit jealous of that

because she kind of had this like

maturity quite early on

where she was making money and she went

out there and she became a

portrait photographer and then a big

celebrity portrait photographer and was

being hugely successful so she was that

person that i was like

i need to keep up basically

when you say i need to keep up basically

a lot of the stuff that i read about you

and your relationship with your dad in

particular um there was some it felt

like from reading what i read that there

were some issues with you feeling

um i guess not good enough because of

his because of the fact that he had been

so successful in his career

is that accurate

um

no yes and no because

to be honest i'm so again i'm so lucky

because the parents that i have are so

supportive of what i want to do and it's

the same way however they've parented me

is the same way i want to be with my

children you know i'm a massive family

person i believe that everything i'm

doing now is for is for my family and to

create better people

um

but i think with my dad and my mum in

that in that respect you know my mum was

part of the first group

uh

to ever um perform in asia do you know

what i mean like in terms of wham and

pepsi and shirley was insane you know my

dad part of spandau and acting career

and all these types of things

i'm insanely proud of that

so for me to then say i'm not good

enough for it or could never better it

puts a downer on those things i think so

i put it kind of in separate boxes i'm

not trying to emulate them

because in my head they will always be

my heroes i sat here with um eddie hearn

and a lot of people like uma from from

he runs pretty thing.com and his dad

obviously runs boohoo.com which is yeah

you know the founders and that they they

often spoke to that feeling of when

you've got successful parents it can

feel like a there can be thoughts that

creep in that make you think

um

often illogically especially in the case

of all those individuals i've described

that you've got you've got like a you

know a mountain to emulate all this you

know there's pressure yeah but that's

that's society like like i i always use

this as an example it's like you know

you look at um

you look at

any any famous kid like that there is

me myself being a an offspring of

someone who is famous two people that

are famous i will still look at you know

brooklyn beckham and see him getting a

scholarship for a photographer thing and

go ah but he's got like because of his

dad and i'll catch myself doing that and

then but that's a normal thing to feel

that's a normal thing to feel i'm sure

he hasn't i'm sure he's got great

talents but i i fully understand why

people would look at me and go oh he's

got to where he is because of his dad

let me tell you at the beginning i asked

my dad hook me up like help me out and

he couldn't like genuinely like that

because of what i wanted to do was

different

but i would say with with my dad it's

never it's never the pressure and with

my mum it's never the pressure of how

well you're doing and like you know tick

this off take this off look what i've

done you've got to do this this this

this this it's not that the hardest

thing with my old man and my mom for

that matter

is

the public perception of them is

how it is which is they are so nice

and like there are these amazing people

i always feel like for for me and my

sister there's more of a pressure for me

to be able to have a good relationship

and a wife the the in the way that my

dad has that for me is more of a

pressure than anything to do with work

the relationship that they have weighs

massively on me because i don't want to

ever go through a divorce i don't want

to ever you know go through problems

because they never did

so when people ask me that question i'd

rather like

i'd do anything to have their

relationship over their career yeah yeah

when you were that age say like 14 15

when you were thinking about what you

wanted to be when you grew up what was

your aspirations at that point

um uh kind of

i signed the record i signed a a record

deal

at 15.

um which came through in such a weird

way like like it was like

meeting people and someone's saying oh

would you would you want to try and do

would you want to try and do songwriting

and i'd have been interested in it and

i've worked with a few people worked in

management companies

as a saturday job

and then they were like

yeah cool let's do it and i signed a

development deal with universal music

which basically means you're

the label's [ __ ] right where you'll be

a part of any project that they want you

to be a part of

so they they basically own any output

that you have

and what you say you can do

i mean you got paid at 15 it was okay

and look at the same time i was being

able to sit in meetings with people who

are now heads of labels and and you know

meet all these people and kind of grasp

an understanding it's definitely helped

with me now having you know interviewed

so many artists in terms of what they're

going through because i've witnessed

some form of that

and i did that for

three years about three years from when

i was 15 to 18. hey listen when when i

signed up i signed a deal at 15 and then

i went in to do my gcses no wonder

they're bad at my gcses i couldn't care

less

i i literally i walked into some of my

gcses i walked in the room signed my

name and walked out

i got you in maths

because of my name

like like

i was distracted at that age and i kind

of guess

i knew i didn't know exactly what it was

but i knew that world was normal to me

and and

like the music world was normal to me

the film world was normal to me because

i've grown up in it

and i guess that's why i wanted to do it

it's never been anything to do with

fame

in our house do you know what i mean

like the idea of what you want to do

when you're older was never attached to

oh well i'll be really famous if i do

that

yeah what was your first sort of real

real job then

real job uh

yeah so no so i i basically i i did i

did universal for a while and and worked

with you know in a band and in bands and

projects or whatever right

and

i then reached a point where that all

ended like really abruptly

partly because i just couldn't do it

anymore and it was a lot i felt like it

was a lot to take in and i remember just

sitting with my mom and just like

i was like i must be 18 and i was just

crying i was just like i just

i can't be a part of this like this is

too much like the expectation on

young kids in the music industry is a

lot what was what was the well it's like

it's a lot you're putting in your own

emotional

being into you know music or into you

know this this kind of like thing i

guess the only way i can describe it is

how you know kids must feel if they're

young footballers and they're trying to

make it and they get cut from teams

it's a lot of emotion going up and down

and up and down you know you win at one

point and then the loss is so hard and

when you're going through puberty

imagine that at the same time you don't

know how to handle that and what were

they trying to make you into a

songwriter no so i was i was part of

bands

yeah yeah yeah they put me in bandsaw i

was you know bass playing or or it was

like oh would you want to write a song

for other people do you want to do this

this and that and don't get me wrong it

was an amazing experience and one that i

would still do now 100

i think that

again it's it's everything that i've

done obviously makes me the person that

i am now and gives me the ability to do

what i do now

um

and i i i just at that point had just

reached a moment where i was like i

can't do it anymore so and then i said

to my mom i was like i was like i need

to do something that is nowhere near

media and i'm just gonna go and get a

regular job every day and i ended up

getting a job basically just cleaning

toilets and cleaning equipment in a gym

near me

and i did that for about a year and a

half

and it was horrible

[ __ ] you know

a year and a half is it

it was it was it wasn't great it wasn't

great i went out there i did i got all

the what was it pt qualifications and

all that sort of stuff so that i could

work in a in a gym

but

literally it's just glorified toilet

cleaner essentially like i was just

cleaning cleaning running machines for

about a year and a half and then during

that time i kind of realized that my

creative side was like really struggling

in terms of like i couldn't

i've always wanted to create and do

stuff so i knew how to like edit

um film and i knew how to

film as well

and so

with my money from working at the gym i

went out bought dslr started filming

stuff and filming for friends and like

[Music]

rappers and

like grime music videos and things like

that just to make some extra cash and at

the same time like on the weekends i'd

just make my own stuff and i'd put it on

youtube and i'd just

have fun with it

you know i knew that world was

a world because

i was i'd come from a school where

i sat my classmate was ksi

but that in that moment you're like

so i know that's possible

and i think that's something that's so

important for so many people when they

know it's possible

and that's the problem with

you know sometimes that's where i think

people get stuck in

well worst case scenario worst case to

say is a class system

because they don't know

what you can do and what your potential

could go to yeah um

but you know i'd seen jj do it i'd see

time and do it and all those types of

kids and i was like you know what this

is this is an amazing thing that they're

doing

i'll give it a go and uh and from there

i will suddenly just kind of turn it

into this presenter role i guess

did you ever have an intention of doing

presenting no god no

absolutely not i would have been very

happy just doing camera

genuinely i love like i've always still

to this day i will stand by by this time

i'm 60 i would have at least uh directed

one feature film wow 100 you'll do it

100 no i know i'll do it because i'll

make it happen i don't care how low

budget it is but i will do it

[Laughter]

so how how

tell me about your first proper

presenting gig then and how that came

about there was a football company

called football daily i know them yeah

yeah

and so this was right at the start of

when they started out and uh

they were just a group of lads that were

just pushing out content

and i just had this idea for a for a

video

that was based on uh

like a football pickup line video

and it was just silly and they were like

well could you just go out and film it

for us and i was like yeah fine

and then they're like actually do you

want do you want to do you want to just

be in it and do it if that would be

because it's cheaper and quicker yeah

right so i was like okay i'll just go

out and do it

and then from that they then started

asking me to go on to like chat about

football i mean football something was

so massive in terms of my life

i'm an arsenal fan sorry about that but

how are you man united oh man where are

you from london

uh

i don't hear a man cuny an accent so

that's pretty many knighted um no so but

you know it's like

i i started doing like silly kind of

prank videos that then turned into

chatting but

it kind of all merged into one i ended

up getting gigs with

channel 4 mtv

capital were asking me to do like

outside broadcasty bits basically just

like for the breakfast show they'll go

let's cross over to roman who's at

wimbledon you know what i mean but those

are so important those every like you

know with presenting is is

is air miles is you you've got to do it

like and and you've got to do all of

those jobs because they throw different

challenges to you every time

you know

and and they will come back and you'll

look back and you'll go i'm so pleased i

did that really [ __ ] job

because

i know what i got out of it you know

there is no there's there's never a

thing as a bad job ever

because you will always get one thing

out of it whether that just solely be

i've done jobs i never want to talk

about everything in my life like in

terms of like how bad they were but

i learned that from them so the next

time i come to that point and i go hang

on this is one of them yeah so therefore

it was a good job to take i'm not making

that mistake later at that time in your

life did you

did you at that point have an idea of

what you wanted to do in the future when

you were doing the football daily stuff

and

ah

if i'm honest i i wanted to i just

wanted to be football presenting

because that's what i loved and i was

enjoying myself

i was i was happy

and i was at a point where i feel like

i'm getting paid to do something that

i don't feel like i should be paid for

you know and i think that's that's

always been

my focus always it always has been

am i happy doing it

yes

okay we'll keep on doing it

and i think that's the most important

with anyone my mom actually again it was

a conversation with my mum that she said

to me and she was like

what is it that you want to do and i was

like i don't know i don't know you know

i had so many things i was like should i

should i try and be an actor because

that's what

my dad did or should i try and do music

because that's what my mom and dad do

should i stay there

and then she was like no no but forget

about that what do you like love doing

like what makes you happy and i was just

like i don't know just chatting about

football with my mates she was like why

can't you chat about football and make

that your job

and i was like well i don't know anyone

in that and she goes well why can't you

just make your own stuff and show people

that you can do it how can i wish i had

a mum like yours man honestly like like

that's what i'm saying like but these

conversations are real conversations

that she had with me and she was

literally saying well you just have to

show people that you can do that i was

like well how am i gonna i can't just

walk into sky sports she was like why

not my mom really kind of again my dad

my dad is

too nice he's too good of a cheerleader

anything i want if i said if i said um

you know when i was working at the gym

or anything like that if i had said

i had to clean this treadmill today and

i think he goes yeah but i saw it and it

was so good

it was so good but that's what i mean

you know

the best parents i couldn't have lucked

out more you know if if we are living in

a matrix world where you select your pod

of who your parents are i have done so

well um but yeah my mum was the person

that was really like you know what what

is it you love

and

and i said that and she was like you

know create your job you know

make it and and i did and

you know she's my mom's very spiritual

in terms of manifesting and and i listen

i'm more a coincidence person but

um

yeah she i think my mum always my mum

always says this this one thing to me

which

i will have forever and i will always

teach to my kids and i think you know

going back to what you were saying about

that pressure of having parents that

do what i do

uh

you know and and we're all part of the

same world

having famous parents

the one word that people will constantly

say to you is that you're lucky

constant yeah it will constantly say to

you

oh yeah but you are lucky because you

got this or you got lucky because your

parents have this

and and i want to say to my mom i was

like i've just done this really cool

thing

and all people say to me is oh yeah but

you got lucky it's like so my mom used

to say to me she was like she was like

yeah but

break that down and you know break down

what what luck actually is and she was

the first person to say that phrase to

me where she said you know luck is when

preparation meets opportunity

and it's so right you know i i prepared

myself in terms of i went out and i did

the mileage i did all the rubbish jobs i

learned about football you know all

those types of things i spent those

hours

you know wanting to be the best i could

be at it and then it just so happened

that an opportunity in life of rose

where i could show that skill set

and from now on that's all i ever look

at like ass

you know and so when people say that i

was lucky on something i was like yeah

but i prepared to be in that situation

and it was

fake that the opportunity was there 100

i mean i even get that now people will

say to me that i got got lucky and

i always liked one particular example

which was when i i when i was 18 broke

kid up in manchester in moscow see

manchester yeah yeah

off in manchester and i was living in

moscow and i sent an email at 3am in the

morning

to the first person that came up on

linkedin asking if they'd invest in my

business and i was asking them for five

grand they replied within a couple of

hours and said they would if i'd if i

assembled the team

and i'm super lucky the first person i

emailed gave me five grand i was up at 3

a.m in the [ __ ] morning

yeah i showed the email on stage where i

removed the times the little thing

blocking the timestamp yeah and i go you

can call it luck but i know where you

were at 3am on that saturday morning

and so again but you created that

opportunity

and that's what i'm saying like that

that opportunity just was there yeah and

you had to have all the back knowledge

to be able to do to provide it so if you

just went to someone and said oh i want

that and then they were like well what

have you got to show for it you had

nothing they wouldn't have done it and

another another example that i actually

learned actually from when someone was

interviewing me the other day if i got a

dice and i rolled it a thousand times

eventually i'm going to get like 10 if a

coin let's say eventually i'm going to

get heads ten times in a row just

because i flip it a thousand times if i

flip 100 times it might happen but again

it's like increasing the opportunity

because of the amount of just flips

if if i had prepared in my life to do a

different type of job i'm sure there are

so many opportunities that i've missed

in this life that i'm living that would

have been better for a different man

that's basically how there's constant

opportunities especially when you know

that's why we're so fortunate to live in

a place like you know we live in london

like well i live in london you know i

mean it's so fortunate to be able to be

here and and you know not be in some

you know [ __ ] part town that's why i

always that's why that's to be honest

that's why i always love

uh you know i really like i really like

you know the kind of grime scene and the

the the rap scene in in the uk and all

that type of stuff because

these kids have come up from [ __ ] like

bad areas with no so low opportunities

and they've made tying of it you know

which is great so when do when did you

get a call from capital and how did that

happen

so

i had i had a call from them that was

like um

yeah can you come and do um

uh this was whilst i was doing i must

have been doing football daily stuff i

was doing stuff for like four music like

just little hosting bits online

and then someone called me and they said

um

oh you come and uh

do a demo like come in and just do like

a

quick let's hear how your voice sounds

so i was like yeah come in

did that thought nothing of it didn't

really hear back then a few weeks later

will you do some outside broadcasting

bits where i remember i had to go to

wimbledon

and chat to people

just in the queue rubbish like join me

right rubbish stuff but all air miles

you know all stuff that to this day i

still know exactly what they taught me

in

my first demo

and

after that it kind of went to a point

where i

they offered me a show that was like

they were like yeah you can do like bit

bit role shows so like 1am to

4am

on a weekend every two weekends

do you know what i mean and you're like

and

you know a lot of people are like you

know all my mates again were like well

graveyard shift but i was like yeah

but i'm off i'm gonna well to be honest

i yeah well that one that it was so

great because it because it was in the

middle of the night i could make any

mistake i wanted

no boss is listening so no one cares

right i could learn i've learned you

know all the buttons and all those types

of things i don't know like i know radio

presenters now that are like what do you

mean you do the buttons

yeah

yeah it's more fun like you know what i

mean so it's it

it was again it was that moment where i

had to learn and i knew that and i

wanted to learn the craft as much as

possible

and

with radio i kind of just accidentally

fell in love with it if you had told me

10 years ago i was hosting radio and

that would be my job and that's what

people know me for

i honestly would not even know where

that would have even started

crazy though which is odd and it's hard

because i get

you get a lot of

radio is a very

you know as i say it's a

clicky place because a lot of people

went to student radio and like you know

what i mean like those types of things

and i didn't take that natural path

to be totally honest with you i said to

myself i was like right i'm on capitol

now

this is when i was 22

yeah when i was 20 20 yeah 21 22 and i

said to myself i was like right

i'm doing 1am to 4am every couple of

weekends now within well in 10 years i

want to

be doing the breakfast show

and i did it in three

two and a half three

and like that for me is still like the

best

you know

achievement that i can name for myself

why do you think why do you think you

did so well on radio because i kept

pushing and i kept i kept like i always

like i speak to you know younger radio

presenters now or even presenters that

are there and i always say

what show are you doing all this type of

stuff and then they'll be worried to say

what i now say to them what show do you

want to do

and they won't want to say it because

there's someone else there but it's like

well

if you don't

you know what i mean like i was there

every single day i know every every

other week i was knocking on the boss's

door saying

i'm better than that person

i i can make it better i can do this

better i can this better you gotta do it

no one's no one no one owes you

something do you know what i mean that

no one owes you that opportunity to have

a better show or a better tv show or

whatever you know if i go to a

commissioner at a tv channel i sure as

hell have to go in there with a better

idea than what they've currently got

otherwise what's point being there

i'll sit there and go oh can you please

give me a show no

like i've got to prove that i've got a

show why

and and that's all i did on on on

capitol it was literally like i remember

they gave me

they they said to me there was like

there wasn't any show slots going and i

was like

what have you got and they were like

saturday five till eight

which was

a horrendous show slot because 5 pm till

8 pm which is like everyone knows that

is

dog territory how come like just because

it's just low ratings right people are

getting ready to go out you know i mean

on a saturday night no one's really

listening to the radio those types of

things not it's not quite 8 p.m where

you're getting getting doing pre-drinks

and those types of things so it's just

low rating statistically

and i was like i don't care give me the

show i was like i like you in the show

and then we took that and uh

me and and joe my producer when we we

turn we get we gave it the

the highest the highest

ratings

within that slot that there's ever been

for one

and it did some record in terms of

weekend numbers ever on capitol why

because we changed it we before capital

was always um

constant happy happy happy as quickly as

you can in between the song

say as little as possible move on move

on move on move on

i wanted to create a show where i was

like no that's not what

if saturday at five o'clock

is quite a dead period for

kids that were my age at that time which

was like 20 23

and i was like a lot of my mates are

these youtubers and these types of

things why don't i get some of them on

we'll just play some games we'll have

more fun with it

and we just kind of created this a vibe

you know instead of just going the

classic route

of what of what they wanted to do and

because it was a rubbish slot they just

kind of said to me try it out

and we tried it and and and did it you

know but it's just having that belief

and just being like bang on the door and

be like look

if it works it works if it doesn't it

doesn't take it off me

so

i'm pleased that we did that and that

kind of led to me then going into

like an evening show slot

quick one there is a really exciting new

product coming from here which the

founder julian told me about yesterday

on whatsapp um and it's something i've

wanted from hill for a long time because

when i look at my kind of nutrition

stack the things that i have and consume

every single day to keep me performing

at my best and in good shape and healthy

there's one thing missing which she'll

currently don't do and to get that

message from julian yesterday and to

know it's on it's on its way is

tremendously exciting

the thing about huel is they always

focus on a couple of core principles

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you went on to do a documentary which i

i watched which was incredibly moving

for a number of reasons um personally

i've got a you know one of my maybe my

best friend and my business partner for

the first seven or eight years was

um

was depressed as we were running the

business and i had no idea yeah so i

only actually found out in hindsight and

he said to me

when he came on this podcast actually

afterwards

after he had had a problem with alcohol

and i'd caught him in the laundry room

we lived together at like 3 a.m in the

morning drinking alcohol

and i'd because at the time i didn't

understand what mental health um

disorders were yeah so i just thought oh

he's got he's a piss-head yeah yeah you

know what i mean but obviously that's

i've come to learn that that's a symptom

yeah something um

and then it all came to a head one day

where he got really drunk and started

exposing himself in front of employees

it's a long story but um

then we had a chat and it was the first

time we had a chat about what was going

on yeah without like anger or

assumption and then he opened up to me

and we cried on some sunday in the

office and he started his journey to get

to seeing a therapist etc your

documentary was just

it was just exceptional for so many

reasons

can you can you take me through yeah

because i because i know that you're

you're working alongside your best

friend joe

at the radio um yeah can you take me

through

i guess the first question is um

did you know that anything was

at all no troubling joe

no

i i

never known joe for

since i started six years

six years straight being with that

person every single day almost like a

boyfriend

like that's that's like like we work

together every day we go out you know

all the time like like after shows all

those types of stuff weekends go out if

i had lined up

my favorite guys over 10

20 if i had 30 mates i'd say 30 mates um

i would probably put him last as to

who i would suspect would ever do

anything like that i mean to put it to

put it into context obviously

the documentary you're talking about

obviously being you know about

male suicide and and male depression it

was

even this world that i'm in now i i

really do not

wish i was part of this world

like in terms of like i wish i didn't

have people talking to me about suicide

but this is where we are it's how life

goes that's that's it um but when it

came to joe my my producer yeah he you

know he was the first person when i went

to wimbledon that day he was the first

person i met when i when i did my demo

for the first first time he was that

person that was there with me this is

someone that taught me everything i know

in terms of my professional being now on

in terms of radio

he taught me everything

and

sat next to me literally

two foot away from me

every day on every single show you know

laughter as i say go out together all

those types of things

but

i think

joe took his own life in august last

year

and that

for me was a moment where

i i kind of i

i had dealt with my own kind of

suicidal thoughts and my own kind of

depression and joe was very much aware

of that which is why it was so strange

to me and why i felt like i had this

piece of paper in front of me that said

everything you know about of what you

think you know about someone that is

suicidal in quotes is wrong

because it doesn't have any form of

symptom

because that's why each suicide is

different to the next and you can't you

can't nullify it you can't be like oh if

someone is you'll know someone's

suicidal because they'll look like this

this this this you'll never find those

answers

which is a scary thought

but it's also um you know like what like

what you said there like you didn't know

that mental health

that puts you in a higher risk category

than it puts me

the majority of men that take their own

life have no idea that mental health

disorders even

are a thing

most of them think that people are just

kind of

lying or or people are just attention

seeking when they say they have

depression

that's over 70

of men that take their own life are in

that situation they see it as a means to

an end

they don't like what's going on in their

life

how do i make it

stop take your own knife

it's it's it's so

strange so yeah so sorry in a

long-winded way i would never have

thought that joe would have been that

person at all now

that really does um

make you think about all your friends

right 100 but that's why that's why like

wow you know and look when when i when

it came to to making the documentary joe

died in august

i started making that doc in november

two months

right because i one all i know how to do

is

through

creative stuff i don't

my writing like you know what i mean i

write something down i'm not going to

lobby government because i don't know

how to do that you know all those types

of things

i just know how to make something and

and i knew also selfishly i knew that if

i do a doc

i'm going to be able to meet people that

have tried to take their own life i'm

going to be able to meet psychiatrists

i'm going to be able to meet professors

and learn the science because i was so

convinced in my head i was like

i need to know all the things that i

need to be looking out for

for my other friends yeah

basically that documentary became my own

therapy

and and people watched it and i think

that's why

you know i realized after that [ __ ] like

it is one it's everywhere

and two there is no

there's no way of telling so therefore

the only people that can help those

people are their friends

and that's what the documentary is it's

not a documentary about suicide it's a

documentary about friendship and how we

now have to take ownership of our mates

what did that journey of creating that

documentary and your own experiences

teach you about and this is one of the

things that's really fascinated me for a

long time is like we're seeing this

apparent increase in mental health

disorders and i say apparent because

sometimes it's hard to distinguish

whether it's because of the increase in

awareness that we have more people

putting the hand up and say listen i'm

suffering or it's because if the world

has changed social media whatever you

want to call it and people are we're

living in a less

healthy way but so we're seeing this the

data shows that there's a pretty

significant increase in mental health

disorders things like treatment

resistant depression i'm actually the

creative director one of the big

investment investors in a um a tie which

is one of the maybe the biggest mental

health psychedelics business in the

world so i do a lot of i have spent a

lot of time looking at clinical studies

and obviously psychedelics is it comes

that depression more from a place of

like what's happened to you versus

what's wrong with you yeah yeah yeah

it's about like ayahuasca and stuff like

that yeah yeah you're like yeah it's

more sort of like trauma-centric

approach to looking at

what have you learned about what's

causing the increase in mental health

disorders from your journey um

it's it's tough i mean i can only speak

from a male perspective um obviously

um and i only ever have done because

i i it's so easy and the thing the thing

that the most

the thing that i saw the most was

oh um

everyone's saying to me well it's social

media in it there's social media the

fastest is not like like social media is

there yes and and it and it can you know

create

a trigger or anything like that for

someone that

may be feeling down i don't think it's

the sole purpose i can also be madly

inspired by social media i can also be

made to feel really really happy by

social media

i think the main problem with men is is

purely down to

is is almost toxic masculinity so it's

our own kind of fault you know the

pressures that we put on ourselves

um

to to be you know the person that we

want to be to to to have the body that

we want to to have the things that we

want and to to have the job the family

you know even the pressure that i put on

myself to have the family that i should

have

you know i'm i worry that if i come to

like the age of 50 and i don't have that

how am i gonna feel

you know and it's all about

it's all about creating

tools

you know in our brain for kids as young

as five and and you know throughout

primary school to learn how to deal with

these issues throughout time like people

have had depression it's just how our

brains are worked

you know what i mean that's how our

brains and why there's always been

depression yeah you know you've got a

right point in terms of like the data

i'll obviously show

that there's more because there are more

cases don't get me wrong like throughout

the pandemic obviously

i always like i don't go too much into

to government stuff but i think it's so

like grotesque to even

trap people in their homes in the way

that obviously they did do and not think

about

the mental health side of things because

they haven't they completely ignored it

like like the government completely

ignored how much of a problem

mental health will be

during the pandemic people being on

their own not being able to go about

their lives you know and also the trauma

that that's going to have later on in

life for kids

you know i learned a stat though that is

horrendous right and this is something

that

you know when i was asked will i go out

and make another documentary and i think

for this

stat i want to

because i can't quite believe it

any business or any school has to sign a

health and safety declaration

right and that's how it is they all have

to sign a piece of paper that says if

you hurt yourself here

we'll sign that 100 of schools up and

down the country sign that

there is also a declaration of mental

health right where a school has to look

after a kid if the traumatic event

happens within school they have to make

sure that you know their their mental

health is looked after

in the uk

two percent of schools have signed that

so you're saying that 98 of schools up

and down the uk

look at mental health and go nothing to

do with us

school is the most traumatic time in

anyone's life if parents knew that if

parents knew that the

schools don't care about your kids

mental health

then that that is what is you know

that's what's putting us in a situation

now where men are killing themselves

because we don't know we've never been

taught how to deal with it no one's ever

looked after us

teaching us how to deal with it you talk

about toxic masculinity though one of

the things that's always associated with

that is just men's lack of willingness

to like

make a phone call yeah to a friend and

say listen i am

not okay and you know you also have been

very open about the day where you were

feeling like that and your

superwoman mother yes once again yeah

she she called you coincidentally or

yeah yeah yeah yeah coincidentally well

it was kind of like yeah i went to

caller and then like [ __ ] like i texted

her a couple times and then she just

called me

because you were feeling bad so you text

her

yeah i mean people are telling you this

but when you're in that zone

you know if you're in a

absolute spiral everything goes into a

right blur

all i know is that i was in my house and

i was in my pants and i was i could not

stop crying and i couldn't stop worrying

about everything and my head was going

like a whirlwind like

i was worrying about stuff that wasn't

even logical like what was your brain

telling you

i can't even like i can't even describe

it like it's like

the only way it feels like

anything in my head that could have been

a problem

was a problem have you ever had like you

know when you're you're hungover

and well like the next day i don't know

if you drink but yeah the next day right

if you have a hangover

you have this like paranoia thing like

throughout like stuff just makes you

feel a little bit edgy whispery like

yeah yeah yeah it's like that but a

million times the only way also that i

talk about it is like

it's like a paranoia and it's like

mike your brain becomes mike tyson and

he's just beating you up

and you've not had one boxing lesson in

your life so you're just kind of like

you can't do anything you're just taking

it right and it's like you're things

like you look bad you've not done this

your tax bill's this you're this you're

this you're this you're this are you

ever gonna do this you're never gonna do

this

loads of like voices

and at that point i just said to myself

you know what i can't

i don't know what to do and the only

thing i could think about was i was okay

well just

i'll just

you know

take my own life i'll just kill myself

that's that's how honestly how i felt

because i was like that's the only way

to stop this

and then as you said my mum called me

and uh she kept me on the phone for

about an hour because i was at my house

and i'd like in my head i was like i'll

just go to the train station and just

you know

do like you know take a jump right

between that's honestly what went

through my head and then it's like at

that point i was like okay

fine and then i speak to my mom and my

mum got there within

an hour and we just kind of

you know what i don't even remember i

don't even remember getting there

it's a very strange place to be it's a

it's a natural

you know break they call it a mental

breakdown for a reason because i can't

your whole mind just blanks and that's

that's the same thing that i've spoken

to a lot of people that have attempted

to take their own life and they all say

the same thing

those moments that you have are

completely like

just

so

intense that your mind goes

it implodes

and and you don't even know and that's

why a lot of men will will tell you that

when they

you know if they take it to that step

which is a huge step to to decide okay

i'm going to take my own life a lot of

men go

that was my happiest moment because i

felt like in that time i was in control

of my life

which is a really scary thought and

really sad thought

that they feel like the biggest amount

of clarity that they've ever had in

their life and the moment where they

felt at peace

was when they felt like okay i'm gonna

do this

and everything will stop

but the problem is is that that's not

the answer

and it's really not and when i speak to

you know in the documentary i speak to

joe's mom

keep in mind this is three months after

her son has passed away and she's had to

be told that her son who she's raised

has taken his own life

she she sums it up in such an amazing

way which is kind of touching on a very

dangerous topic of selfishness

around suicide which a lot of people

don't want to talk about but it's the

truth which is

suicide isn't necessarily a selfish act

by that person

but the problem is is that no matter

what pain that person is feeling in that

moment no matter what pain you're going

through in your head

or sadness

you do not get rid of that

by taking your own life all you are

doing is you are transferring it to

everyone around you and you are

transferring that on average 180 people

get um affected by one singular suicide

and and that is what you are doing

and

it's just the fact you know like for two

months i absolutely hated joe i hated

him after he died i felt quite cold

because i was just like

how could you do that

i felt like i i could you leave me your

mum your dad your sister actually do

that how could you let someone find you

like do you know what i mean so it's

it's it's it's in that that you realize

that

no matter how much that clarity is there

and you feel like you're escaping a

problem

you are passing that on to someone else

and that's what's left behind you and i

know for a fact that i know like i would

put so much money on that

if he was here right now he'd look at me

and say sorry i made a mistake

100

so much so so much i was thinking about

that so the first thing is my business

partner also said to me he wanted he was

considering jumping in front of a train

that's what he said to me in our private

conversations the other thing is just

this this um

it's really it's really hard for someone

who's not been through

what you're describing there what you

went through and evidently what joe went

through

to understand the

that place if you've not been there

that's this is why it's so valuable

and like i was thinking you know it must

as you kind of alluded to there you

didn't choose to for everybody to ask

you in every interview about this topic

but the the immense value that it's like

it's doing on someone like me who's been

fortunate enough not to be in that place

who can now unders from your description

there that mike tyson description can

now understand

that

how that must feel yeah but i can't but

i can almost but the the thing is the

thing is is what's better is because you

are in a higher risk category than me

yeah i know which is [ __ ] terrified

because but now that i've spoken to you

about it yeah and that you you're not

because because that's that's the

problem is that you know all of the guys

that i spoke to said to me they were

like

didn't think mental health was a thing

was a thing

didn't think what i was going through

was depression thought i was just

rubbish and just thought i you know i

wasn't where i wanted to be in life just

wanted that to end

that's the the realization of it you

know and again it's it's that thing of

you know it's a it's a topic that no one

really wants to talk about and is is

also why

i was so adamant

that

the worst okay this is the worst thing

right is if you're in that state

your mate's in that state right

the last thing he wants to do is talk to

you about that

so why

is

the kind of push always

oh if you're fairly depressed you should

talk

no

that's the last thing i want to do if

anything you're going to make me revert

more

right you're going to go back more the

the pressure should be placed on us as

friends

to to make that call and to make that

conversation happen with anyone that you

would ever suspect even if you don't

suspect it make sure

how sure are you how sure are you of the

people in your phone book or your close

friends that they're not thinking these

thoughts not sure enough but that's what

i mean so all you have to do is have

that conversation but that will take you

having that conversation i always say i

do a lot of talks for businesses about

mental health

and

um

i always leave it with you know go away

today

choose three people in your phone book

that you speak to regularly

and

ask them ask them are they okay but do

it twice you know and that's something

that i learned from a group of lads who

had lost their mate

they they now look after each other by

asking at the beginning of the

conversation are you okay have the

conversation and then just go back to it

and be like so tell me yeah

are you okay

choose three people do that two okay

rule on them and tell me that you

haven't found something new from at

least one of those people

it's fact right like it's so messed up

for us as a society

you know especially especially living in

living in london

like

you know which is just a horrific

but amazing place

you know

it's this beautiful you know cultural

place it's my home it's it's everything

but it is also a treadmill

and you go get on it and if you're not

on it you're you're not even in the

picture

and

that means that conversation

switches to

what do you do how can i profit off that

and the most important thing in a

conversation should always be are you

okay

when you say to your mates hey how are

you you go yeah i'm good glaze over it

like that

why is that not the most important thing

that you ask someone

and it should be it should always be and

and that's why for guys we forget that

so you have to go oh [ __ ] okay i'll ask

it again

you know and and that is you know be i

want people to to be the the hero to to

their friends that i know i wasn't to

mine because i know i wasn't and no

matter how many people say to me ah he

did what he did because of you know that

was his prerogative and all that sort of

stuff yeah for sure but the fact is that

if someone had this conversation with me

i probably would have brought out with

him

and i would have i know if i'd if i'd

got to the crux of it if i'd if i had

asked joe those questions if i had said

to him

are you okay if i'd done that twice if

i'd spoken to him seen how he is

i don't think i'd be here

i don't think i'd be having this

conversation

and i want other people to understand

that it's up to us as friends

but you spoke to joe about your

struggles about me and did he ever did

he not ever reciprocate and say well

i've also been no no

but that's that's that's his that's his

thing what was he like as a guy in terms

of being a kid

was he was he a a

a guy that talked about deep topics like

you've got your friends yeah yeah was he

talked teachers

it's ridiculous like i still find it now

ridiculous even talking about him

because it's like if if he had known

that i was out here talking about people

about him

it's odd it's odd to be able to be

speaking about one of your friends and

like i don't know it's odd but he's

someone that was the most outgoing funny

creative guy he always he cheated on

genius and idiot

constantly

um he would have the most

ridiculous ideas and at 99 of them

you know i have 100 of them 99 would be

ridiculous and one would be incredible

and and that one incredible thing is the

thing that we'd always champion and push

forward but

he's someone that yeah like i say like

every single one of my friend grew i've

never noticed a more smiley person i've

never known someone

more happy-go-lucky more

just

happy to be there

and

that's why i say

if that can happen to him

best believe it can happen to anyone

else

did anybody ever find out

what got him to that place or any any

did he not leave him

no

again this is another thing is hollywood

would make us believe that people leave

notes yeah they're not over 90

don't

and and never know

and and that's why it's just a it's a

horrible horrible harsh thing

and it's it's so

final

that's the that's the problem is it's so

final also another thing is you know

girls can't be taken out of this

conversation as well because

when i i worked with the nottinghamshire

um

street triage team who are an incredible

team of people that are

police and mental health expert that go

out on calls together

so be a mental health nurse right with

with a police officer and they will

respond to

a mental health crisis right so someone

trying to take their own life etc

and i said to them i was like oh you

know i went there like

in the mode of like oh yeah so it must

all be guys that you speak to and then

we're like no actually it's around 90 of

our calls are women

having mental struggles

or trying to take their own life

and then you look at the data and you're

like why does that make sense but the

problem is is that us as men being

men we choose more final methods in

terms of

how to end that pain

and that's the unfortunate reality of it

you made that documentary it was i mean

it was it was everywhere and everybody

was talking about it yeah really really

far-reaching in fact i know that the

amount of people calling suicide and

sort of mental health um support lines

shot up drastically so it was amazing

it's like 700 percent or something crazy

like that yeah 720

um

but with that

you then carry this

i guess this like social you you become

the ambassador for something right i do

not want to be the ambassador for it but

that's how life is now

and the only reason why i'll go out

there and do it is because of joe's

family genuinely

like

it's not easy right talking about that

no it's not like i'll give you examples

like

you know

i'll go to parties now and you like the

main thing that like lads lads will come

up to me and talk to me about is how how

they feel

which is nice in a way

but it's a lot it's a lot yeah i won't

like that it's a lot it's a lot like

like there are days where i i don't want

to talk about i have people like again

like i'll be out for dinner or something

like that and someone will come up to

you and say oh my god that documentary

blah blah blah i wasn't thinking about

mommy taking his own life but now i'm

thinking about it

do you know what i mean but that is life

like that that's always how it is and

and the only way that i can kind of get

around that

is by

you know you can tell them but by the

way that i talk about it i'm still

passionate about it you know because

i've been scarred by

i've got such trauma attached to

suicide and and mental health and that's

a trauma that i'll always have you know

that when when you look for things

you know one of the questions i've asked

you know other people

you know that have been through what

i've been through

i said to them when does it get better

and and their reply is

it doesn't you just learn to deal with

it a little bit better

do you know what i mean like it you just

learn a different technique to stop

thinking about it

and

you know that will be with me forever

i'll tell my kids about joe you know

i'll be bang on top of my kids is mental

health you know what's going on with him

but again i just think it's

throughout all of this

you know as you say

being a part and having these

conversations now

is is crazy

and weird

do you still feel a bit of anger

sometimes towards

joe for doing that

um

yeah every now and again

every now and again that's normal yeah

you know it it's normal every now and

again i'll be like

every now and again it's more so like me

and my mates will have a story

and we'll laugh and then at the end of

it we'll go

like

why mate come on like because i know

like i know that if he was there what

he'd say to me yeah i can hear it clear

as day

he'd say i'm sorry mate i made a mistake

and and that that's what's so sad and

it's like i know that whatever it is

that he was going through it ain't worth

and it never is worth no matter what

anyone's going through is that this this

this is not an option

it's not an option

i've i'm mistaken because i can't

remember her name so please forgive me

if she ever hears this or friends of her

ever hear this um

there was a mum that that recently um

got the wording changed around um the

phrase commit suicide

so now that that is not a phrase that

should necessarily be said so it's

always you would refer to it as take

take your own life

because to commit suicide is actually an

illegal act

and therefore a lot of young a lot of

parents were left with a child who if

they had written it down that they'd

done that that they would go down

essentially as a criminal a criminal

because you're committing an illegal act

um

so that phrasing has gone now which is

quite nice is a nice thing

um

but you know

suicide is still such a weird thing that

people don't want to talk about but yet

is the biggest thing you think how much

think how many cancer adverts think

about testicular cancer adverts you see

on a daily basis now

put that together with how many male

suicide adverts do you see

you don't it

how have you

found being in the public spotlight you

talked a little bit about there about

like people coming up to you at dinners

and parties and stuff yeah yeah like

when you're in the spotlight anyway

people come up to you and just say oh i

love your thing yeah right but now

they're coming up and saying how have

you found all of that

in terms of the the dark the dark blue

just generally i mean in general mate

like to be totally honest i don't know

any different yeah genuinely because i

like

it for me it was uh

it's like

in the same way that i could say to you

how is it

in that bit how is it hitting puberty

it's like you'd seen people above you go

through that so you kind of knew what to

expect oh okay and you kind of dealt

with it do you know what i mean whereas

like for me because i was

people coming up to me now saying oh can

i get a picture and if i'm with a mate i

have to say to them

can you hold the phone and you know take

the picture

i was that person oh right holding the

phone half my life yeah you know so

it just it's always been always been

there any time i was a kid any any time

i was a kid walking into a pub going to

a football match walking into a

restaurant

anywhere i clocked people looking at my

dad

or my mom did you understand that they

were

like famous yeah mate loved it yeah i

loved it loved it like like put it this

way my sister was always my sister was

always

really shy my sister was always really

shy of it and my dad always tells a

story where he said it was a

show-and-tell

at school

and um i must have been about

six my dad was in eastenders you just

joined eastenders and um

his character name was steve owen in

eastenders right and um

and it was a big thing that he was in

there

and

the firemen came to school like to show

the fire truck and to you know show how

this is our equipment and all that type

of stuff

and they said any questions

and my dad and my mum said i put my hand

up

and said you may think that's cool but

my dad's steve

owen so i've always i've always been

insanely proud of my parents you know

like and and you know i credit them for

you know my dad has always been very

patient with everyone and in terms of

like

people wanting pictures or stuff like

that he always does it too yeah he

always does it but he taught me

something else which you know we had a

little bit of a chat about this before

but

he's never let me take pictures with

people

ever and i don't do that and i always

get i get told off about it because

people are like oh if you're hanging out

with this person you take a picture oh

so if you yeah so if you want to take a

photo with like justin bieber then he's

not gonna yeah even footballers right

like when i was a kid all i wanted was

was like you know take picture if i met

football i would want to take a picture

and he was like nah

enjoy that moment with you and that

person the picture is nothing you you

know it's great gratification for

someone else to see it he goes that you

should enjoy that moment live it with

your eyes and and and speak to them and

if you really want to you know make a

moment in that person's life go up to

them and say you know you know what i

really really like your work i really

appreciate what you've done i really

like this that goes so much further

than you know if someone came up to me

and said i just want to let you know

that i've really liked what you did that

means so much more than anyone's running

up to you and going

get a picture take a picture run off

yeah yeah you know if someone came up to

and said mate i really love your podcast

i really love you know everything you've

done the business the businesses that

you've created means so much more yeah

um someone was pleased about that so

yeah so so fame in terms of for me has

always kind of been um there's pros and

cons to

our jobs now

fame is a con

is a is a bad part of it

the good part is that we get to do fun

stuff

interesting

you the good part is you get to speak to

interesting people yeah sat here

the the con is that when you're out for

dinner someone may have watched that

conversation yeah and want to interrupt

you yeah and talk to you about it yeah

i went to i was went to the like united

away game the other day and i always get

it in some certain places so like

whenever there's a younger demographic

dragons is going to change that i was

talking to my team this week because

yeah like bbc one's a slightly more

parenty audience really change that

you'll see that so when i'm in my when

i'm at old trafford in the like gallery

area which is all probably a little bit

older people yeah no one bothers me

forgotten if i go to an away day

honestly last week someone had their arm

around me the whole game i love you

share me on his phone i love your

podcast yeah and i'm if he's going to

watch the game yeah come on he's out and

he's and you know anything yeah yeah

yeah i'm wearing a [ __ ] hoodie and

like

you know but yeah but that's why

it was a good thing in that sense yeah

it was a really good thing no it's

actually a conversation i started having

and you've experienced this much more

than i have which is just

i

will there become a point where i become

more of an introvert and don't want to

go to places because of the amount of

people that are like it's exhausting

right and i don't want to be i'll never

be an [ __ ] i know that for sure i'll

never say

it's tiring right it's tiring

for sure but naturally that will happen

because your life changes like you're

going to be on a tv show that is watched

by millions of people like like this is

that's

you know it's what my dad what my dad

always says you know and that's you know

that's why he always says to me you

can't you know people that get angry at

fans or whatever and like you know or

rude to people you can't put your head

above the parapet not expect to get hit

yeah you know what i mean like how can

you do that like

you're choosing to to go on a show that

is watched by millions of people yeah so

therefore if you go out you need to be

more careful you need to you know like

you know

understand that that people are going to

want certain things and that's fine but

that's just that's just the world

quick one as many of you know i've been

trying to make my life a little bit more

sustainable as it relates to energy ever

since i sold my range over sport and

bought an electric bicycle and my energy

as a sponsor of this podcast is one of

the brands that make that transition

much much easier they are at the