It drives me crazy that nobody else

thinks about risk in this way. People

look at my life and they're like, "Well,

you're crazy. You're such a risk taker."

Well, at least I'm taking the risks that

I'm choosing because think of all the

people that like go out partying every

weekend and they get buzzed and they

drive home. And even sedendary people

who are like, "Well, I don't take risk.

I stay home and I play video games." No,

you're at a much higher risk of heart

disease. Like, they're taking all kinds

of risk that they're not actually

choosing to take and you're still going

to freaking die either way. So, you

might as well take smart, calculated

risks and do all the things that you

want to do and at least die happy when

you go. He's done it. Alice Honold has

made history again, scaling one of the

world's tallest skyscrapers.

>> But the conclusion that a lot of people

have arrived at is that you don't

experience fear because when they look

at these two brain scans, your amydala

is lighting up less when you're shown

scary images. I I actually hate all the

brain stuff because people always put me

in this box. They're like, "Well, you're

different." And I'm like, "Well, not

really. Like, I'm a middle class

suburban kid. Nobody in my family is

athletic. I just after 20 years of

climbing 5 days a week and being really

freaking scared, I respond differently

than an average person." And there was

tons of emotional turmoil throughout it.

Periods where you're just like I'm

trying so hard and I'm just like not as

good as I want to be. You know, I was

like living in a car. I had like a

couple hundred bucks a month for 10

years. Like that's challenging. But you

just can't master a craft overnight. I

guess that's what people don't see. And

so how do you create the conditions to

out persist other people? And then in

all your career, when is the moment

where you were most scared?

>> On an expedition to Antarctica. I kept

hoping that it's going to get better and

it just kept getting worse. Like I could

die.

>> Do you have a conversation with your

partner before you go and do something

like this? because she wrote a letter.

>> Oh gosh.

>> Obviously, this is your worst nightmare,

she said. But we all have to do scary

things sometimes, Alex.

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yeah, let's do this.

Alex to understand you. I think from

everything I've learned about you, from

the research I've done, from speaking to

your wife, your agent, everybody I could

speak to, I think to understand your

context, we first need to understand the

circumstances in which you were raised

and the childhood you had because it

seems to be I mean for all of us there's

like fingerprints left on us that define

the anomaly um that many of us become

including yourself. So what do I need to

know? What does the viewer need to know

about the early context?

>> I mean, how deep do you want to go? I

need get a sofa. I need to reply. Like,

all right. Uh, but yeah, certainly

there's a there's an imprint from my

parents, my upbringing. I mean, they had

a a very fraught relationship. They

eventually got divorced, but they stayed

together for the kids and it was a whole

like, you know, say a tense home life

because neither of them really liked

each other. And then my mom is very

driven, very,

you know, high performing. And then my

dad was hard to say. I mean, I think my

dad was deeply depressed basically the

whole time I knew him cuz he was in this

relation. You know, it's hard to tell.

He wasn't living his best life. And then

sadly after they got divorced, he was he

was much happier, but then he died. And

so then never really got to see uh never

really got to see him blossom that much.

>> And your mother's high performing. And

did did she sort of implicitly demand

that of you in any way?

>> Yeah, I mean my mother speaks like seven

or eight languages. She like plays every

instrument. It's like kind of crazy.

She's very artistically minded in that

way, like you know, the arts and

classical sense. But um yeah, she I mean

she wanted us to do all those things

too. I'm a deep disappointment in that

regard.

>> There was a phrase that I saw when I was

watching the documentary that your your

mother would continually say which I

think translates to something like not

good enough like pressing a ka like

almost like almost doesn't count. It's

funny because I feel like uh a lot of my

adult life now one of my sort of go-to

sayings is you know don't let perfect be

the enemy of good. I'm really into like

good enough. Like it's better to like

try. It's better to do something, you

know, it's better to fail quickly and

learn and keep moving forward than to

not try something. Like basically, I

don't want to be crippled by

perfectionism. Sort of like my mom is

very much a perfectionist, you know,

like if you can't do it right, don't do

it. I'm sort of like I think it's better

to try and learn and improve,

>> but she's accomplished a lot of things

with that approach.

>> Yeah, she Yeah, she has for sure.

>> What about emotions? This is something

you I've had heard you sort of talked

about a lot is in that environment where

your mother and father aren't getting

along well. I think I I heard you say

that your you hadn't seen your father

really happy before he'd passed away.

>> Yeah.

>> Was it an emotional household in terms

of affection?

>> No, it was a very unemotional household.

That said though, you know, it was a

safe, relatively happy household. Like

it was it was fine, you know, and and I

was close to a lot of my extended

family. And so I had a really good

relation with my grandparents and some

my aunts and uncles. And so I mean I

basically would have characterized it as

a totally happy family life until I

became older and started seeing other

people's families more and was kind of

like, "Oh, this seems even happier." You

know what I mean? It's like basically

really good until you see what what else

it can be and then you're like this

seems even better.

>> And your mom wasn't ever affectionate.

>> You know, it always feels slightly

conditional, you know, where it's like

uh you know, she cares if you be you

know, if you perform well, like if you

do well, like if you're a good kid or

whatever, you know what I mean?

>> Where where did climbing come into your

life? Cuz I've got some I have found

some photos of you climbing and you look

your like with your sister, I believe.

Here we go. This one here.

>> Yeah. Classic. How old have you been?

>> I don't know. I mean, I don't know, like

six or something or eight. It's hard for

me to tell like medium-sized kids ages.

Why? Why climbing?

>> Oh, why not? It's so freaking cool. Have

you Have you rock climbed?

>> I've Yeah, I have.

>> You gone to a gym?

>> Yeah, I've I have. But

>> And wasn't it the freaking coolest

thing?

>> It was fun. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

saying I've climbed when I'm sat with

you is I feel like

>> Yeah. But you have tried it.

>> Yeah, I have. Yeah.

>> As an adult, if you can imagine as a kid

how fun that is. And then if you just

keep doing that non-stop and then you

find that you're, you know, have some

aptitude for it, you enjoy it. It's

like, you know, you can imagine going

down that path. It's so cool.

>> But is there something about the

challenge of climbing that you think

just kind of like was a jigsaw piece for

your for you your brain? Like problem

solving?

>> Well, I think there's something

elemental about climbing in the same way

as like running or swimming. It's like a

basic movement thing that I think is

quite enjoyable. And I think that I also

I I think I have an innate love of like

being on top of things like, you know,

being at the top. Basically, I love big

views. I like the expansive, you know, I

like air and so I like being up on

stuff. So, I don't know. I think it just

hit a few sweet spots like that where I

was like, "Oh, climbing is just so

cool." And

>> you I'm assuming you never thought this

could be a career.

>> No. No. And actually, even when I

started rock climbing sort of full-time,

I still didn't think it could be a

career because there just wasn't really

professional climbing at that time. It

was like much smaller. The industry is

way smaller. Climbing was way more

fringe and like less of a thing. But you

weren't motivated by like money or

anything cuz one does not pursue rock

climbing to become No. Rich.

>> Not to become rich. No. Well, so I said

though, so my father died like the

season before that. And because my

parents had just gotten divorced, he

basically left his retirement to my

sister and me and she used it to finish

college. I just put it into bonds and

was living off like 300 bucks a month or

whatever, which kind of like worked. You

know, I was like living in a car. I

stole my mom's minivan at the time. I

had like a couple hundred bucks a month

and it was kind of enough to just like

go to be a 19-year-old just like

camping, you know.

>> Was it this minivan?

>> No, that's my second one. That's the

Ford Econoline. That's the first actual

van that I bought. I lived in that van

for 10 years.

>> For 10 years?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I bought this van. I

mean, this is this is classic. But so, I

bought this van for 10 grand. And and

then originally, this is the last

buildout, which is the classiest

buildout. The original one my uncle and

I did for free with like scrap wood from

his, you know, in his wood shop.

basically. And uh and so then I lived in

that for 10 years and you're kind of

like, yeah, when you live in it, I

couldn't even stand in this van, you

know, I was like, "Oh, my back." But you

know, when you're living in your car for

10 years, you save quite a lot of money.

>> Between what ages did you live in your

car for 10 years?

>> I probably bought this van when I was

20. So 20 to 30 basically.

>> H does the

>> Yeah, actually I think that's right

because um because I think I met my wife

when I was 30 and that same year I

switched from this van to the bigger

van. And if you've seen the film Free

Solo, that's um I bought the the

ProMaster, this like Dodge. It was like

I could stand up in my van finally and I

was like, I'm moving up in the world. I

can stand

>> in there really well. Oh, there's there

is a little stove in this one, but

>> yeah. So, this though is the I did three

different buildouts of this van over the

10 years cuz like the original one was

super scrappy. The second build was like

a little nicer and then this was like a

pretty nice build that I had for I don't

know, five or six years or something.

When you live in your van for 10 years

and you have a mother who is very

performance focused, I've got um her

here. I believe you coming with her.

Classic.

>> Do you not face a lot of external

pressure to like go get a real job?

Honestly, less so than you would think.

Um

like to her credit, my mom was always

pretty supportive of the whole path. I

think, you know, I was kind of lucky

that that I did a lot of this when I was

like young enough that it's all part of

like you're gappier like, you know, it's

like you're young and you're finding

yourself and then and then I think there

was enough sort of external validation

that that my family could at least look

at and be like, well, you seem to be

good at this random thing even though we

don't get it and don't really know what

you're doing, but at least other people

think you're good at it. So, keep doing

your thing.

>> And at this point, was it was it rock

climbing? Was it free soloing? And

>> yeah, it's all a little bit of

everything, but basically just being a I

mean, you know, like being a

professional climber, quote unquote.

Some of it's free soloing, some it's

like speed climbing, some of it's just

hard climbing, some of it's going on

expeditions, doing new roots, like it's

a little bit of everything.

>> And for the average person that doesn't

know what free soloing is, what's the

like definition of it?

>> That's climbing without a robe. So

climbing without protection, which is

definitely what I'm most well known for

now, but in the context of professional

climbing, I've done tons of other things

in climbing. Like most of the time you

have a rope on, most of the time you're

doing other sorts of things. But it's

like the free souling is what you might

have been well known for because that

like breaks into the mainstream a lot

more.

>> I'm really intrigued generally by people

like you who like take I mean take the

path less traveled in their career and

then maybe nearer the the end of the

graph pick up traction. And I have this

piece of paper in this pen because I'd

love if you could from the age of let's

say 80 you're now 40 years old.

>> Yeah I turned 40 this year old. Could

you draw a graph showing how your career

looks in terms of success? You can

measure that by money or attention or

whatever. Let's see. So,

>> it was kind of like

>> nothing.

>> Slow a little bit and then like thisish.

>> Yeah.

>> And then kind of like and then basically

just like in like this where you

basically like kind of flat but growing

and then you have free solo where it

jumps a ton. It's like kind of crazy.

And then and then it keeps kind of

growing at a slightly faster rate than

before and then it basically jumps a ton

because of the building thing again.

>> I I find this fascinating because most

people in their lives wouldn't be

willing to endure this phase 18 to 29

where

>> it's not enduring. It's so great. Like I

would do that again. I loved it so much.

Like I mean I often think I'd be so

happy to just start over from zero

because like all the places that I go

climbing now I've been climbing there

for 20 years and I've like done most of

the things I can do and you know I've

sort of like tapped out a lot of stuff

in the western US and I'm like man I

would love to just hit the rezero button

and start over because you'd have so

much stuff to do and it's so amazing.

>> I guess that's the that's the different

the fault of my question is that I said

the word endure but you see it as

>> Yeah. You get to climb every single

thing you see. It's amazing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing

is like from age 18 to to 30, I

basically did try to climb every single

thing I could see because I was just

like, I'm learning. I'm growing. This is

amazing. I climb everything. And like

now I'm actually much more strategic

about it because doing tons of easy

climbing like doesn't really help me at

this point. I'm not going to make like

big technique gains. It basically just

makes me tired without without the right

kind of gains. It'd be like somebody

it'd be like an elite runner just

jogging for miles and miles every day.

And you're kind of like that's not going

to make you it's not going to improve

your marathon time if you're already

like an elite runner. It's it might be

fun, but it's just not going to like

move the needle for you. Through this

period of your life, 18 to 30, you're

optimizing for just having fun, doing

things you enjoy.

>> Well, I mean, no, I was always I was

always challenging myself. Like

basically, I was optimizing for like

what's the next thing I can do that

pushes me a little bit.

>> But you weren't optimizing for how to

get rich or

>> Well, then I would have gotten a job. If

I was optimizing for getting rich, I

would have freaking finished my college

degree and gotten a job.

>> I say this in part because I interview

so many people who pursued careers that

are often considered not real jobs, like

comedians or magicians.

>> And I tend to find the same thing

between the age of 18 and 30, they

optimize for something that isn't

necessarily being rich or famous. And

then at some point the graph looks like

this. Well, it's because I mean I think

I'm sure you know this, but I mean the

the world really it's like a winner take

all economy type deal. It's like

basically if you're the dude that does

the thing, all of a sudden your earnings

go insane.

>> But until you become the dude that does

the thing, you know, if you're like the

best magician or the best comedian or

the best whatever, then all of a sudden

you make an insane amount of money. But

when you're just like one of many

struggling comedians, you're, you know,

you're struggling. And so I think for me

as a climber, you're sort of like, oh,

I'm just a dude living in my van

climbing. But then a certain point, I'm

like the dude that, you know, I'm like,

oh, you're that guy that climbs without

the rope. And you're like, oh yeah,

cool. And then all of a sudden your

earnings are like

>> Was this um was this a difficult period

of your life this 18 to 30?

>> No, it was like the best. Well,

obviously it was like f, you know, I was

like trying to juggle rel like I wanted

to get a girlfriend. You're a young 20s

man living alone in a car like wanting

to be better at something than you are

and not not quite knowing the way, not

knowing what you're doing with your

life. So no, so obviously there was tons

of emotional turmoil throughout it, but

no, I mean retrospectively it's like

amazing. And your your dad passes away

which is in part I guess some of the

catalyst for

>> Yeah. Honestly my dad passing away

should be the beginning of that graph.

It should be this should basically start

at 19 cuz uh 18 I went to university and

so then uh starting at 19 I guess I uh

went on the road.

>> Your dad passing

what impact did that have on you outside

of it somewhat liberating you to to make

decisions that outside of his

expectations?

>> Well I mean obviously it was you know

it's sad. It's hard like and especially

now I'm sort of like oh it's too bad

that that I don't have a relationship

with my dad and he doesn't you know that

my kids don't have a grandfather and all

that kind of you know it's like yeah

it's it's tough. I think that the most

immediate impact that had maybe was just

reminding me of my own mortality, you

know, I mean, he he died unexpectedly at

55, just fell over in the airport and

just fell over dead. Um, like heart

attack. And so, you know, I mean, I

think that that reminder of my own

mortality has had a big impact on my

career, my life, you know, my climbing

world, whatever. one might not expect

you to go quote unquote do risky things

because of

>> well no because the thing is I think one

of the reasons that people don't do

risky things is because they have this

uh you know mistaken idea that they can

live forever basically and basically

because people don't want to think about

their own mortality and so they're like

oh I don't want to take any risks I

could die and you're like you know that

you're going to die either way and

either way when you die you're going to

be bummed that you didn't live longer

because you know it's like like the life

expect 78 and you're like Say you make

it to for men, whatever. Like, say you

make it that far, you're still going to

be like, man, I wish I had 22 more years

to like watch my grandkids graduate

college or whatever, you know, it's like

it's still going to feel like too

little.

>> And so, I'm kind of like, you're better

off dying at 55 in an accident, but

having done many things that you're

proud of and, you know, like led a life

that you're that you're proud of than

dying at 78 and still wishing you had

more, but having done none of the things

you wanted to do. It

>> is interesting. It does appear that

people live as if we think we're going

to live forever. Yeah, it's totally

insane. I mean, everyone's like, "Oh, I

don't take any risk." And you're like,

"Yeah, well, you can take no risk in

your life and you're still going to

freaking die." So, you might as well

take smart, calculated risks and do all

the things that you want to do and at

least die happy when you go.

>> What does this mean to you to like live

intentionally?

>> Well, that's exactly it. Like choosing

the the risk that you're willing to

take, making choices, like using your

time the way you want to use it.

>> I was looking at I think it was your

your personality a personality test you

did. You said you

>> like did I do a personality test? Um

like how much material do you have? I'm

like Jesus Christ. Like how many like

things do you have?

>> I have unlimited things.

>> I know. I'm so impressed

>> on this uh personality test. It says

you're you know higher on thrillseeking

and sensation seeking but then also

significantly higher than the average

male on urgency which I think kind of

overlays with what you were just saying

there of like making the decision to do

something.

>> Yeah. Basically because your time is

short and you're going to die so get on

with it.

>> It says here you're higher on

conscientiousness.

>> Very polite. You know,

>> thrill seeking, sensation seeking,

you're low on boredom.

>> I think low on boredom means that, you

know, you don't get bored.

>> Perseverance. You're very high on

perseverance.

>> Yeah, I think that's the same as low on

boredom.

>> And low on neuroticism.

>> That's for sure.

>> And so, what's your what is what's the

definition of the word neuroticism? Is

it like

>> Well, I think it's like the Well, I'm

sure there's a clinical definition, but

I think of it as sort of general anxiety

type stuff, like, you know, people

spinning in their heads about things

that don't matter. And has that always

been the case when you look back through

your life and the feedback you've had as

a kid and a teenager? Kind of. Yeah. I

think so. I think I've never been too

concerned about I I don't spin. I mean,

obviously, you know, occasionally I

stress about things, but but just not

the way I think a lot of people do.

>> I'm trying to figure out if that's a

learned behavior or maybe a little bit

learned and a little bit um from your

upbringing, genetics, whatever it might

be. Because can can one learn that? Can

one learn to be less neurotic and

>> Well, presumably I mean like meditation,

things like that. I think people can

sort of find a way to let go of certain

things.

>> Isn't this quite quite interesting when

people ask you questions inevitably

about fear and how you take on such you

know to muggles like me terrifying

challenges. There's an element of all of

this which is you do have a nature and

and a nurture which somewhat is

impossible for someone like me to

replicate

>> because your brain and my brain are

completely different. Your parents your

early contacts when your brain was being

wired and malated are completely

different to mine. So, you know, I

always find this is the like the trouble

of giving people advice is

um we're dealing with different

different natures,

>> different natures.

>> But I I do feel like in my case, the

biggest difference in nature is the fact

that I've just always loved climbing,

you know, because I basically I think

that nurture is is the majority of this.

Like if you spend 30 years training a

thing, you're going to get better at the

thing.

>> And so I think that the biggest

difference between me and and somebody

who's not into rock climb is I freaking

love rock climbing. I could go I could

do it 10 days a week if if I could, you

know what I mean? But sadly, I get too

tired and my body breaks down. And so,

you know, I could I basically have like

a limitless capacity to to do the thing.

I just love doing the thing. And I think

that that is probably the biggest

difference in nature, you know, because

everything else you can kind of

overcome, you know, like if you loved

rock climbing as much as I love rock

climbing, no matter what your your

genetic disposition towards like

neuroticism and all that stuff, you

would just kind of work through all that

stuff and you'd find your own path to to

getting good at climbing basically.

>> If your kids came to you, you have two

girls, right?

>> Yeah.

>> If they came to you and said, "Dad, like

give me advice on what I should aim at

in life."

>> Would you tell I wouldn't I wouldn't

give them advice. I'd be like, "You do

you find the thing you love to do, go

hard, you know, basically like learn

some skills, get good at something, like

what do you like to do?" I mean, that's

kind of the thing for me, especially

with climbing is like if someone had

told me like, "You're going to train

climbing for the rest of your life." I'd

be like, "Oh, that sounds like kind of a

grind, you know, cuz I mean, it is it is

hard work. You're like hiking uphill

with a heavy backpack and it's cold and

it's windy. It's like it's basically

physically uncomfortable." I mean, being

a professional rock climber means that

you're physically uncomfortable

all the time, but like like often, you

know, like it's you know, it's hard.

>> Yeah. But if you're doing it because you

freaking love doing it, it doesn't feel

very hard. And so, I mean, I think the

key for a kid is find the thing that

doesn't feel like hard work.

>> And when you started, were you scared of

of big tall rock faces and stuff like

that?

>> I mean, yeah, I had like a healthy

intimidation of I mean, like my first

season, the first time seeing Elcap as a

climber, uh, I was 19 and it looks

impossible. It looks completely insane.

I was like, that's so big. But then, you

know, within a couple seasons, uh, you

know, I climbed some bigger walls,

learned how to climb, and then a friend

and I had the sort of season goal, like

we were going to climb all season with

the aspiration at the end to climb Elcap

in a day. So, basically, there was this

long progression on LCAP specifically

where it's like you go from just trying

to get up it to trying to get up it

faster to trying to get up it with just

your hands and feet, still using

protection. But basically, there's like

all these steps you can take. And so,

over a bunch of seasons, you know, I

climbed a cap like 60 times, different

routes, all these different things. And

then eventually you're sort of like,

"Oh, maybe I can start thinking about

freoling it." Which is where the film

Free Solo comes in. And then eventually

you do this thing. But then people like,

"Well, aren't you scared?" And you're

kind of like, "Wow, I've spent 10 years

like building up on this thing."

>> I guess that's what people don't see.

>> Yeah.

So they just

>> I mean like the documentary Free Soul I

think does a pretty good job of showing

the the direct preparation like the

training involved in doing that specific

climb, but it just doesn't show the

uh like eight years before that I guess

cuz the documentary was filmed over two

years and I guess I've been going since

2006. So it's nine years before that

that I've been going to use and I've

been spending maybe three months a year

climbing walls.

I guess that's the illusion of like all

people that do great things and then

become like athletes or sprinters or

whatever Ronaldo or Messi is you you

don't get to see the

>> Yeah. the whole life that they put into

doing the thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So it looks it looks like a magic trick

when we see the outcome. Like we show

show up on Netflix to watch you climb

Taipei like whoa

>> hanging with it from his leg.

>> Yeah. I mean people watch some of those

programs and they're like he just walked

up and did it. And you're like well yeah

after 30 years of practice like I just

walked up and did it. But no it's not

like just walking up and doing it. Hm.

>> I mean, like, yeah, I've literally been

climbing 5 days a week for 30 years.

Like, that's so much climbing. Like, I

freaking love climbing and I climb a

lot.

>> On this on this idea of like exposure

therapy as it relates to like fear and

anxiety and confronting one's uh things

that terrify them. Was there in the

early days were you I'm trying to

understand. Were you like scared at some

point?

>> Oh, all the time. That's actually

something that I think uh you know I've

obviously done so many interviews around

fear and like managing fear and all that

and I've talked about fear a lot of

different ways over over the years and I

think as I've gotten older I've sort of

come to realize that that actually

you're just scared all the time as a

climber like low-level fear low like but

you're but climbing is fundamentally

scary like it's always kind of scary

because there always consequences like

even if you're climbing with a rope

you're still always visualizing like

what happens if the rope breaks like

what if you know like is this safe like

you know is the gear good like is is

actually safe. And so you're always a

little bit scared. And so after years

and years of always being scared, you

get pretty good at managing that kind of

stuff

>> because there's a lot of sort of

misconceptions swirling around this

brain scan you.

>> Yeah. I know. I hate all that stuff.

That's just all from the film Free Solo.

>> It was like too short of a scene in the

film. They needed a little more. They

need to let it breathe, you know,

explain things a little better, I think.

>> So they scanned a control subject.

another person scanned you, looked at

the amydala in your brain, and that the

conclusion that a lot of people have

arrived at is that you don't experience

fear because when they look at these two

brain scans, your amydala is lighting up

less when you're shown scary images

basically, right? But like shown just

this image, like what does that even

mean? Like my brain's purple and his

brain is orange. You're like, like what

does that mean? Like I don't know. But

no, I mean the the thing is though, and

this is what I wish was explained in the

film better, is that this is we're being

shown black and white photos inside an

fMRI. So, you're inside a sealed metal

tube. You're totally safe. You're

physically safe and comfortable. And

you're being shown black and white

photos. And so, to me, obviously, that's

not going to light up the fear response

in my brain because you're looking at

pictures. You're like, who cares? I'm

totally safe. But in a control subject,

uh, you know, apparently your brain sort

of responds to images one way or

another. But I'm kind of like, I've been

climbing for 20 years, so I've been like

scared quite a lot. And you're kind of

like, well, black and white photos start

to lose lose their edge if you've been

scared all the time for 20 years. So,

it's like obviously that's not going to

trigger much.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine everybody in

their life can think of a scenario where

they have mastery that would sc like a

stand-up comedian looking out at a stage

probably wouldn't be as scared as me.

>> Yeah.

>> Because that would that would terrify

me. Um so again, this is not necessarily

some sort of neurological

>> No, I mean I think the real takeaway is

that I have an amydala and it works.

>> Mhm.

>> You know what I mean? like cuz I think

if if the results had shown that I was

missing my amydala then I would have all

kinds of I would have died already at

youth cuz I wouldn't be able to function

as a as a human basically but you know

had it shown something like that where

there are like structural differences or

like some real change but this is

basically just showing that after 20

years of conditioning I respond

differently than an average person and

you're like yeah no kidding like if you

put a monk into an fMRI their brain

responds totally differently than

average person as well

>> which I actually think is a really

inspiring conclusion because it means

that we can all

>> grasp our fears better. And even, you

know, people won't know this about me,

but 10 years ago, I sat down on camera

with my friend Ash in his apartment to

record a two-minute video. And as I sat

there, I couldn't I was so scared I

couldn't get the words out. So, you

actually in this 2-minute video that

comes out, you see it go from night and

day in the background just because we

did that many cuts over 7 hours to try

and get me to say 2 minutes on camera.

And obviously, after 10 years of being

on camera, I can now speak without

[ __ ] myself. And I imagine my brain

state looks significantly different

because of our exposure therapy.

>> Totally. Yeah. Hey, you should do the

fMRI. You should Yeah. You should have

done 10 years ago cuz then you'd have

your control and then you do it now and

it'd be totally different.

>> But also, the psychologists I've sat

with all confirm this. They talk about

exposure therapy.

>> Yeah. And and I went through exactly the

same thing with public speaking. Like I

was always so afraid of public speaking.

I was also very shy and like just not

like it was terrifying. And now because

of the free solo film tour and you know

all the public things I've done since

then, I'm like basically fine. And you

know, it's like you still got a little

nervous, but it's like basically easy

now. You're kind of like, well, that's a

total change. It's like obviously

there's a tremendous capacity for humans

to learn.

>> People talk to you about fear all the

time because I mean your work cuz

climate is really freaking scary. It

makes sense. It's totally

understandable. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And they also realize, I think, at

some deep level that the thing holding

them back from who they think they want

to be or who they aspire to be is fear.

Often it's judgment of someone else.

It's taking a risk.

>> Totally. So, you've become for many

people the like, tell me, tell me how to

overcome.

>> Yeah. Well, I think that everyone's

like, "What's your hack to overcome

fear?" And you're like, "There's no

hack. You just get really freaking

scared over and over for so long and

eventually it's not that scary anymore."

But I will say that that's like a very

enduring way to overcome your fear is

like if you're willing to go through

that process, then you are actually

unafraid, you know, because like you can

do like hacks. I mean, you can you can

like crank up loud rock music and just

go for it, you know? Like, and there are

plenty of examples of that in in what

I'd call gravity assisted sports. Like,

say if you're going to jump a cliff on

skis, like you can get to the edge, be

like, "This is really scary." And then

be like 3 2 1 do it and just like go. In

climbing, you can't really do that as

much because it's so slow. Like when you

climb, you make one move and then you

make another move and then you're like,

"Do I still want to be here?" Like it

basically fear creeps in a lot more. But

sort of in gravity assisted sports, you

can have more of that moment where you

just like overcome your fear and then it

happens, you know, like making a big

drop in a kayak or like skis or things

like that where it's like once you

commit, it's happening one way or

another.

>> Anyway, there's a lot to get into with

like

>> No, but I mean I want to get into it. I

watched a video of you climbing Half

Dome, I think it was, and it looks like

you got scared halfway up or

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, so that video is

actually filmed later. So the voice over

in that video is me talking about the

experience of me freestyling when I was

totally alone. And I did get really

scared on halfdome and I had this whole

somewhat traumatic climate experience

near the top of the wall. But then when

we went back to film it, I had a

different traumatic experience while we

were filming. Less traumatic but uh but

like very scary for a moment and they

got that on camera. So they basically in

the film they just cut the two together

as like a because it shows me like being

really scared.

>> What's Half Dome to start with and then

what was the traumatic experience?

>> Yeah. So Halfdme for anyone who hasn't

seen is uh is this just totally amazing

wall in Euseite. It's a 2,000 foot

granite face. Actually it's the North

Face logo. It's a It's freaking It's

That's That's half dome.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. So, it's like an iconic wall in

Euseity.

>> Um it looks like half of a dome, but

actually it's more like a hockey puck

just shoved in. It's actually a full

dome depending how you look at it. But

the Northwest Faces vertical for 2,000

ft is incredible. And so I freelled.

That was one of the first like major

free soulas I did in 2008. Um and one of

the things that sort of made me a

professional climber in a way. But when

I did the climb, I did the bare minimum

preparation. I basically like didn't

know. It was it was the biggest thing

I'd ever freed. I didn't quite know how

to like go about getting ready for it.

Anyway, I I climbed it and basically

hadn't practiced enough. Was really

freaking scared. Got off route, got

confused, skipped some stuff, and then

at the very top had this whole moment of

extreme panic, you know? Basically, I

got up into some stuff and all sort of

like crumbled mentally and like sort of

barely managed to finish this upper

slab. Like the hardest part of the climb

was like right near the top. I was

trying to walk across this ledge.

Basically, I've walked across that ledge

face in and face out. you normally

people hand traverse it or they crawl

across it. There are like different ways

to go across the ledge and I've done it

every which way and then we were up

there filming and I was like I'm going

to walk it face out but it turns out

when you walk it face out it's really

freaking scary. And so I made it kind of

halfway and was like oh my gosh and then

bailed.

>> And when you say you having like a like

a crisis in your your mind, what does

what is that? Is that just oh my god

what am I like how does that sound when

you

>> Well, I mean so in this case so walking

across this ledge it's like it starts

maybe as a foot wide. So your foot is

fully on the ledge and you're shuffling

across it. But then at a certain point,

yeah, I mean that's that's

>> the video I'll put on the screen for

anyone watching.

>> Yeah, that's that's the ledge. But

basically at the narrowest part, your

feet are sticking out over the lip of it

and the wall bulges ever so slightly. So

it for forces your back out a little and

so you're basically like rocking on your

heels with I don't know like a 1700T

drop or something, 18800t drop like

straight down below you and so you know

it's like pretty it's pretty intense.

Anyway, and so I thought I was going to

walk across it like that and I made it

to the bulging part and was suddenly

like, "Oh my god, this isn't like this

isn't for me." And then managed to like

shuffle back and and change my strategy.

>> Is it like panic in your head?

>> It's not panic, but you're like, "Oh,

oh, I made the wrong choice. Like, this

is bad. This is bad." You know? I mean,

it's not like full like five alarm bell

like panic panic, but yeah, you're like,

"Oh, I'm so screwed."

>> And you have fallen a long long way

before. I I was hearing about a time

when you were younger you fell off a a

mountain and called your mother, managed

to call your mother in

>> Yeah, though that was like sliding down

an icy cooler type thing. It's a little

different than like free falling off of

a cliff. That's like sliding down a

mountain. But yeah, I got totally messed

up and and uh Yeah. Yeah. And I've like

broken my arm several times as a kid

falling off things and and then with a

rope as a climber, you take big falls

like routinely, you know, when you have

protection. That's like part of the

sport basically.

M I mean it's certainly easy to

visualize falling 700. You know when

you're like standing on a little ledge

and you're just bulging and you're

looking down you're, you know, it's easy

to be like, "Oh my god." You know, it's

like if you just bend forward a little

bit, you're just going to take a swan

dive like 700 feet to the ground.

>> The stats in this sport are I mean of of

fatalities. How do they compare to other

sports?

>> Uh safer than you would think. That's

the thing is everyone thinks it seems

crazy, but uh it's not that crazy. I

don't know actual statistics, but I

suspect that it's actually pretty

comparable to to skiing or something,

you know, because like recreational

skiers die all the time, like falling

into tree wells or like going off cliffs

by accident or things like that.

Climbing is actually surprisingly safe,

which is one of the things I love about

climbing. I mean, climbing is very it's

very uh sort of binary where it's like

either you're totally safe or you're

going to die. And the odds of you dying

are very very very small. But because

they're they're there, they always keep

you on. You know what I mean? Like it

basically keeps you alert,

but you're never really gonna get hurt.

>> Is that including free soloing?

>> Yeah. I mean, for the most part, I mean,

a couple people have died free soling. I

mean, people occasionally die free

soloing for sure, but actually most of

the the sort of cutting edge free

soloists have not died soling. They've

like died in other things. I think it

was in in the um the documentary on

Netflix um Free Solo where one of your

colleagues

>> Yeah. Tommy Tommy is like most free

solos are dead now. Um which is kind of

true but it's slightly mis misstated. I

mean you know he's just like speaking

off the cuff and it's not like strictly

true. Like a couple of the best free

solos have died free soling though they

died on very easy terrain. But then the

majority of other great free solas have

died in sort of climbing adjacent

accidents like wings suit base jumping

and uh like one got swept to sea by a

rogue wave like while he was out

climbing a sea cliff but he was like

standing on shore and got swept out to

sea. You know things like that where

you're just kind of like you know

obviously they're taking risks in their

lives and they wind up dead but it's not

the way that people think. You know, you

see a photo like that and you're like,

"Free soul, you're going to die for

sure." And you're kind of like, "Well,

people don't actually really die that

way." I mean, they have. I mean, not to

say that it doesn't happen, but way less

frequently than people would suspect.

>> If I was to try and like, you know,

professionally torture you, and again,

I'm not talking in extremes here, but

what life would I prescribe you to live?

>> Oh, being like a finance bro or

something. Having to like just work

spreadsheets my whole life. Is that what

you mean? Like what what is my like

worst

>> I don't know, something like that. or

honestly being like a choreographer for

dance or something like I just I

couldn't do like or or being like an

opera singer like I would just kill

myself. I just couldn't do that.

>> Why Why would being a finance bro be

like the worst thing for Alex?

>> Just the idea of sitting at a computer

in a cubicle just like typing. I mean

I'm kind of contrarian. I don't like

rules. I don't want to like jump through

hoops. I don't want to do arbitrary

things. Like I don't want some manager

to come and tell me like, "Oh, you got

to file that report again. You like

missed a line." I'd be like, "You go f,"

you I just like walk out of the building

like it's just I just like don't know if

I could take that be like no. But that's

like how most of the world live. We kind

of we all live in like you know

>> I just don't know if it's for me.

I don't know. I mean doesn't that just

seem I mean I had this moment I've been

in New York a couple days and I I took

the subway down to see some see some

friends and I was like coming out of the

tunnel and it's like packed with people

and I was just like looking at the

ground and I was like just you know

following someone else's footsteps up

this like beat down path of stairs and I

was like I couldn't live like this. like

not day in and day out every day like

this is just like feeling like you're

just doing the exact same thing as

everyone else around you. I'm like oh it

seems so so boring.

It's funny cuz so so many of us look at

your life and go wow that's not very

normal but actually maybe at a

foundational level you're living a much

more normal life than I mean you're out

in nature you're moving your body.

>> Yeah. Yeah. In that in that way for sure

I'm like going on cool adventures and

going out and I don't know. I think

that's also part of why the the sort of

attraction and allur with your life

especially when you watch free solo is

you do seem to be a free man

in a way where most of us aren't free as

such.

>> Yeah. I mean well I think we're all sort

of aspiring to that to some extent. I

mean most people see that though as like

they get their vacation for the year.

They they're planning to retire at some

point and then they're going to have

their freedom and you're kind of like I

don't know. I mean maybe you got to try

to live that way as much as possible.

>> If if your if your young girls came up

to you June and Alice and said, "Dad,

what's what is a meaningful life? like

what are the principles of living a

fulfilling meaningful life? Would you

give them advice there?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it'd be a long

rambling multi-day conversation with

them about But I mean, following your

own goals is is I think, you know,

certainly one of the the cores of having

a meaningful life, like having things

that you find valuable. I mean, really

like living in line with your values,

finding things that are important to you

and pursuing them with as much as you

can give them. you when you look at your

early so 20s to 30s it kind of looks

like you're living like a Buddhist a

little bit.

>> I mean yeah I went on a a trip once

where they called me the monk

just because I was living such a sort of

a seated lifestyle. I was like reading

I've never I don't drink and I don't

like party and I didn't just for

personal preference whatever. So I'm

just like living in my little van and

reading books and climbing all the time

like those are the things that I'm into

doing you know. It's like it's yeah it's

just doing what you want to do.

Have you ever been depressed or?

>> Yeah, probably not like deep clinical

depression, but there's certainly

periods from time to time where you're

just like, what am I doing or why or

what are my goals? Like, you know,

what's And I think to me the most

depressing thing is that, you know, I've

put like my whole life into climbing,

like trying to be the best you can be

all the time. And sometimes you put tons

of effort in and you just don't see

results. Like for whatever reason, you

just suck. You're like, I'm trying so

hard and I'm just like not as good as I

want to be. And like that's challenging,

you know? But that's

I mean everybody faces that to some

extent where you're like I'm working

hard at a thing but I'm just not

achieving the results that I want.

>> And between the between that the sort of

that period of no man's 20 and 30 where

your career hasn't taken off yet the

documentary is not out. You've not

climbed Taipei. How much money are you

earning from climbing?

>> I mean the first my first couple years

my sponsorship through the Northace was

like uh I think my first year was like

10k a year. I was like this is amazing.

cuz I was living in my car and uh you

know making 10 grand when you live by

yourself in a van is like more than you

need basically. Um it obviously went up

but beyond that at some point but it was

you know like in the 10 to 100 range for

the first for the whole yeah for years.

>> Then at some point it increases.

>> Yeah. And then it increases. I mean then

free solo is obviously like a big thing

and that sort of opened up all these

opportunities. Uh because then I started

doing corporate speaking and stuff like

that. And I mean, as I'm sure you know,

that's just like a whole different

world. And so then you go from just like

making some money from sponsors to like

making money from from other

corporations stuff. And then you're

like, okay, now you're making some

money.

>> One of the things when I was I was

hearing you talk about some of your

incredible climbing stories is um I was

trying to understand what role

visualization or or your preparation

plays and how that's like transferable

to to me and my life. We talked a little

bit about just how much preparation you

did for something like LCAP,

>> but you you it sounds like you really

break down the challenge into smaller

bits and then really go through those

individual steps, whereas a lot of

people would just look at LCAP and go,

"Oh my god, they'll be terrified."

>> And then say impossible.

>> Yeah. Which is fair. I mean, I spent

years looking at LCAP and being like,

"That's too big. That's impossible." And

then, you know, after years of that, I

kept hoping that I would look at it and

it would like look easy somehow and I'd

be like, "Cool, now I'm going to do it."

And it just never looked easy. And so

then finally I was like, "Okay, I'm

gonna have to like put some real work

into it." And then I started slowly

breaking it down and and and then once

you like break it into pieces and start

working on the pieces, then you're kind

of like, "Okay, it starts to feel more

reasonable."

>> Break it into pieces and start working

on the pieces. What does that mean in

terms of climbing? So if we I mean I've

got this this uh model here of

>> type. So you know, and this is also a

metaphor for any challenge I have in my

life.

>> But this is actually perfect because

it's right here.

>> Yeah.

>> So I scouted this in September of this

year. I did the climb in January. or

whatever. In September, we went and um

well, we had to like one make sure it

was possible before you sort of like

commit to it doing a whole TV program.

We were kind of like, let's make sure we

can do this. And then they also had to

get all this sort of marketing material.

You like get the photos with the

building, like all the stuff that

becomes the trailer and whatever. And so

we went in September to sort of like do

the prep. And so we I basically checked

out all the different pieces. And so

anywhere where you see it looking a

little bit different, you know, it's

like this whole bottom part is like a

low angle slab. It's like punctuated

with these two little rubies, these

little like coin things or whatever the

clouds or whatever they are. And then

there the dragons on the corners. These

are all overhanging. Like each of these

eight blocks is like a big overhanging

thing. It feels a little bit different.

Then you get up here, there's like these

balconies. These are actually

overhanging. Like basically each little

segment of this is quite different. And

you know, obviously on this model like

looks looks the same, but um each

transition between the different pieces

is like a thing. So I checked out all of

them with ropes and and yeah, you just

go piece by piece all the way up the

whole thing. And you hadn't ever climbed

it before we saw it on Netflix live.

>> Well, I hadn't freed it. No, but I had

climbed it. I climbed all the pieces

with a rope for sure. I'd like checked

out the different things.

>> Okay. So, so you you look at these as

individual challenges every step.

>> Yeah. It's like you go Well, even like

just getting off the ground, the first

move is a slightly different move than

any of the other moves. You have to like

jump up to a thing and like press it

out. Um then climbing over these little

clouds is a different thing. Each dragon

is a different thing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean

it's just, you know, there's a

surprising amount of complexity to it.

And so our first on the scout, you know,

I had a note on my phone and I'm just

like writing down all the different

basically I'm trying to learn it the way

you study anything where I'm just like

making notes and sort of like from floor

54 to 72 it feels like this. I climb the

southeast corner the left ar you know

just and then yeah just writing it all

down

>> and I mean there's this famous photo of

you hanging with your leg.

>> Yeah, that's this these are the rings up

here.

>> So you're hanging you're hanging here

from here with your leg. Yeah. Now, I

this is really a question of endurance.

Like, how do you plan to have the

energy?

Like, how do you know if you're going to

have enough energy when you're up here

when you're just planning it? Well,

>> I mean, what this this is what makes it

exciting because you can't be sure. But,

you know, I've done a lot of climbing in

my life, and I've done a lot of climbs

that were like 24 hours. I mean, I had

this experience in Patagonia once. It

was a 54-hour push. Like, the last 20

hours we hiked without food um cuz we

got caught in a storm. It's a whole

crazy story. But basically, you know,

I've had a lot of experiences in my life

where I've done hard exercise for more

than 24 hours. And so this, you know, I

expect it to take me somewhere in the

hour and a half, two hour range. And I'm

kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'll be

tired after 2 hours of exercise, but I'm

not going to be exhausted. You know what

I mean? Like, I know that I have a much

deeper reserve than that.

>> So much of the conversation around um

after you' done this, or some of the

conversation was around whether this was

a harder challenge than Al Capitan.

>> No, no, it's obviously much easier. I

mean, I'm doing on live television, you

know, it's like obviously it's easier,

but what makes it cool is that it's

different. It's fun. It's challenging.

Like for me, it's really like in my

sweet spot where it is challenging

enough like it's it's not easy. You know

what I mean? Like saying easier than

LCAP, it doesn't, you know, LCAP was

like a 10-year life project that I did

in absolute secrecy. I did it on my

terms on the correct day after years of

effort. I had failed attempts. I you

know what I like LCAP was like an

allconsuming life project for years kind

of like obviously you can't do that for

live TV. It's like you just can't put

anyway

>> but this was very much in my sweet spot

where you're like oh it's hard enough

that it's that it's hard like it's cool

you know like it's fun it's interesting

the climbing is engaging it's you know

gave me something to train for for

months it's like it's super fun but it's

not you know it's not like the absolute

limit of what I can do because you just

can't do that on live TV. I mean, if

nothing else, so I was climbing the

southeast because it gets good morning

light and it looks beautiful and it's

like great for filming. But if I was

trying to do the absolute most cutting

edge climb I could do, I'd be climbing

the northwest arette because it'd be

full shade because it'd be good better

conditions, you know, be colder. Like

you just don't want to be in the sun. It

makes your skin, you know, makes you hot

and stuff.

>> Mhm.

>> And so, you know, just things like that.

You're like, well, if you're doing it

for TV and you're trying to broadcast

it, then you want it to look good. But

like, if you're trying to do it for hard

climbing and good conditions, you do in

full shade. And Netflix had a 10-second

delay just in case you fell.

>> I mean, I'm sure part of it is in case

you fall, but part of it's like, what if

somebody unplugs one of the things or,

you know what I mean? Like, it's so

complicated. There's so much stuff going

on, it's insane.

>> Was there a hardest part of this a part

where you were at all nervous?

>> The thing I was most nervous about when

I started was were the bamboo boxes,

like doing these eight overhanging

segments cuz they're just so

relentlessly the same move and it's just

it's pretty physical like you get tired

for sure. I mean, the actual physical

hardest moves, um, like actually

randomly one of these corners up here

would have been quite a hard move, but

there was this freaking security camera

bolted onto the wall. And so, you use

the security camera as this handle. It

was really freaking cool. And it was

like bolted on with these giant bolts,

so it like looked super safe and, you

know, it was like very robust and

secure, but it would have been kind of

like this extreme jump, which I wasn't,

you know, it's probably possible, but

would have been like a major thing, but

instead you just reef off the security

camera. And I was like, that's so cool.

It was uh so there are a few things like

that like individual moves that are kind

of muscly but overall it's the the

stamina like the challenge of doing this

over and over for hundreds of feet that

was the hardest thing.

>> Do you have a conversation with your

with your girls and wife before you go

and do something like this about just in

case you don't come back? I know the

>> not with the kids cuz they're too young

and like they wouldn't they don't

understand it anyway. Um and not with

her because she came with me to Taipei

or she was there for like the whole end

of I went a little bit earlier so I

could adapt to the time zone more and

like feel better. But um but basically

she was with me so you know like we went

to bed together that night and like woke

up that morning and had breakfast

together. So it didn't feel like a big

goodbye. You know it was kind of

actually she was with me at the base

like we did the start together and then

I literally was like okay bye and walked

over and did the thing and saw her again

going to the top. So we were only apart

for like an hour and a half of the whole

you know like and I saw her through the

window a couple times and so it felt

like she was just there having the whole

experience with me.

>> Did you look at other buildings in the

world like like the Burge? So, yeah,

I've scouted the Burge twice over the

years. Um, back when this project, this

project almost happened in 2013 or

something and so I'd scouted some

buildings then. The Burge was just a

little too extreme. It's just too hard.

But someday maybe, who knows?

>> Cuz it's what? Like there's not enough.

It's too slippery.

>> Um, yeah, super slippery. Also, it's

just the way the holds are. Like I mean,

the beauty of Typo 101 is that the holds

like they're good things to hold that

are close together and you're just like

and you can hold them and you feel

secure. the Burge. I can barely span tip

to tip to like reach between the holds.

>> And so then your face is like right

against the glass. You're like holding

on like this. And it's pretty hard. And

you have to do the same thing 112 times

in a row. It's like pretty hard to do it

once then you have to do 100 times.

You're like it's kind of hard.

>> The other thing that I saw um online

after you'd climbed it about one or two

days after everyone talk started talking

about how much you were paid to do it.

>> I think cuz you did an interview.

>> It's funny. There were some quotes that

were kind of taken out of context

because yeah, a New York Times reporter

asked me how much I was getting paid and

I was kind of like I don't want to talk

about it cuz it's kind of embarrassing

cuz all my friends it's like an

embarrassingly high amount for my

community. Like in the climbing world if

you're getting paid to rock climb you're

like great success, you're getting paid

to climb. That's insane, you know? And

so I thought it was like sort of an

embarrassingly large amount. I'm like

this is kind of weird. But then he sort

of poked around and he started comparing

it to like boxing matches and stuff

where people get paid like $20 million

to like fight someone boxing. And I was

like, "Well, no, compared to that, it's

an embarrassingly small amount." You

know, it's like or if you compare it to

like major league baseball contracts and

things and it's like, "Yeah, it's an

embarrassingly small amount, but I was

never complaining. Like, I thought it

was great. I mean, I would do it for

free. I mean, I've paid money to go up

to the observation deck. The observation

deck is way up here at the top and the

view is insane and the city's

incredible." And, you know, it's like 20

bucks or whatever to take the world's

fastest elevator to the top of the

building. And you know, I've done that

in the Burge as well where you like pay

the money and you go to the very top of

the building and the view is insane.

It's like I do that like anywhere I

travel like the Se the Willis Tower,

whatever the Sears Tower in Chicago.

Like I've paid the money to go to the

observation deck and see the view and

it's so cool. And I'm kind of like if

someone's willing to pay me to climb up

to the observation deck, that's freaking

cool.

>> Yeah. I think it's because people again

they're they're saying that they believe

that this is you're risking your entire

life. Yeah. And and so yeah, they don't

think of boxes as risking their entire

life in the same way.

>> They kind of are.

>> Unless they are. Yeah. But they don't

see it as that.

>> I know. Of course they don't see it as

that. And that's totally understandable.

I get that. But I see it as like anybody

going into the boxing ring, particularly

if they're very mismatched, you know,

like you would think that there is some

real chance of grievous injury or like

death,

>> you know? It's like it's insane.

>> And so I think that people over the

thing is I think people that don't know

anything about anything like don't know

anything about climbing look at me

climbing a building. They're like it's

50/50 if he lives or dies. Like no idea.

And you're like no. If you put this in

the context of all the things that I've

gone in my life, I felt very confident

that I wouldn't fall off the building.

You know, I was like, you know,

obviously it's never 100% because like

whatever it's life, but you know, it

feels like 100%. You're like, oh,

there's no chance I'm falling off this

building.

>> The rumors were that you got 500k to

climb it from Netflix.

>> Throughout my whole like, you know,

quote unquote career as a climber, I

basically have never worried about money

and I've always just tried to do the

thing and let it all play out at the

end. And so I've done a ton of work for

free over the years. Oh, like actually

we were talking about that Halfdme film

earlier where it's like I'm shuffling

along. It's like I did that film for

free. I did tons of films like that for

free. Uh just because you're kind of

like, "Oh, it's part of being a

professional climber and I get to go

climbing and I'm up with my friends

filming on a thing." You're just like,

"You're working for free. It's fine."

But by doing all that stuff for free,

like I never I never stress the day

rate. Never, you know, I was like, I

don't need to get paid to go have fun

with my friends on a wall. Like it's

fine. But as a result of that film, you

know, a year or two later, they wind up

doing a photo shoot out there for the

cover of National Geographic. And so you

just wind up in other things and then

and then that got seen and I wound up

being profiled by 60 Minutes, which

actually was one of the first sort of

career inflection points. It was like

the 60 Minutes profile in 2011 or

something. But basically, I've done a

ton of work for free over my life as all

part of like it's all part of the game

and I just love playing the game. And so

you just like let it play out. And it's

funny because with this building, a lot

of people thought that I was sort of

underpaid by it, but afterward,

you know, some people have approached me

about some bonuses and some other work

stuff and like basically a lot has

already sort of happened and it's only

been a couple weeks since the building.

And I'm kind of like, you know, you

don't need to get paid for the thing

itself cuz it always works basically.

I'm kind of like I don't know. I'm like,

don't get hung up on how much you get

paid. Just do the thing. Make sure it's

freaking rad and it all sorts itself

out.

Yeah. Yeah. That I mean that's also been

like um the that's completely true for

my life as well. Even this podcast like

when we started the podcast in my

kitchen I mean this is a replica of my

kitchen and Jack was here. There was no

pay there was no payment when we started

it.

>> You're just doing a thing. You make it

as good as you can and eventually it all

sort of works and you're like cool.

>> I've I because that that pattern you've

just described has played out for 15

years of my life. I now and again my my

CFO and my commercial director might not

love me saying this but they know this

about me is and we even talked about it

recently with a particular project is

like don't let the inability to see

where the money is going to come from in

the near term stop you pursuing

something that you think is going to

create value because history shows that

actually value like giving value out

into the world precedes

the the e the economics totally. And so

if it happened 15 years of my life where

I remember when I started the social

media business and people some a guy sat

me down in Google in London and

explained to me why I would never make

money from that business. He like he did

the math for me and the math was solid.

>> He was like if you do once a day you

won't make any money. And I was like

>> you're like yeah but I don't think

that's true. You know you're like

>> and you have no evidence but

>> yeah but you just know it's going to

work.

>> Yeah. The Uber CEO sat here with me

yesterday in that scene and he was

telling me he was like the thing is

there's this thing called Jevans paradox

where when yeah when become more

efficient whatever people think of

things in linear progression but

actually there's exponential

progression. So when we launched Uber

more people started taking taxis. So all

of the models about how big this market

were were all wrong. And I find the same

in that and I found the same in about 5

years ago was yeah like you set me down

and go well Steve CPMs you're going to

have to be getting a million downloads

to make like to earn a living like but

>> like wait and see.

>> Yeah thing and let it let it happen.

>> I mean you're a prime example of that.

>> Yeah. It's always better to focus your

energy on being the best at the thing

that you're trying to do than figuring

out how to monetize it or you know make

money off of it. It's like I don't know.

I mean, my whole like life as a climber,

I've always tried to focus on like how

do you send, which in climbing terms

means like do the hard thing. Like you

always focus on sending and then

everything else follows.

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It's funny you you talking about

mortality earlier on and um I think in

the last couple of years my mortality

like realizing that I'm going to die

someday has been such a a wonderful

thing to to really remind myself of and

like a frequent basis.

>> What uh how come?

>> Just because Okay, so there's many

things. One of them is um

the whole idea of like sunk cost bias

where you become successful at a thing

and you and now you have something to

lose. So people go into a state of loss

aversion where they start to protect

what they have. Totally.

>> And this narrows your life in a way

where you stop taking challenges, stop

taking risks, stop doing new things.

>> And the other thing generally about

knowing you're going to die and really

like reminding yourself of that is it

liberates you from getting caught up and

worrying about things that in the grand

scheme of like cosmic reality are like

totally inconsequential.

>> Yeah.

>> I was I was hearing someone say the

other day like do you know the the name

of your great-grandfather?

>> Do you know do you know his first name?

>> Not really. And do you know the life

they lived and what they were worried

about and how they were embarrassed and

their shame.

>> Yeah. Exactly. No, you don't know any of

that.

>> And the point is like if you don't even

know your own family's

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> [ __ ]

>> Like nobody else cares. Yeah.

>> But even like extremely famous people a

couple of weeks after they trend on

Twitter and then a week later everyone

just like gets on with their life again.

>> Totally. Well, I'm already experiencing

that with with this stuff, you know,

like the building was like insane for a

moment, but now it's the Olympics and

there's a lot going on in the news cycle

and it's like the world's moved on. I'm

like great. I'll go back to just like

being at home with my family and

climbing as much as I can.

>> Being at home with your family, you said

earlier that when you're in that van for

10 years, you wanted a girlfriend.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, I'm not being funny, but people

that fit your profile and uh to some

degree, people that fit my profile

struggle in intimate relationships for a

variety of reasons. And I think I

actually saw this in the documentary

when I watched Free Solo. I saw you had

a partner at the time. There was an

accident on the cliff side where you

fell and she was supposed to be

protecting you.

>> Mhm. And generally I just saw someone

who probably is more on the um less

affectionate, more commitment avoidant

side of life. Is that accurate?

>> I don't know about commitment avoidant

because actually I have had long-term

girlfriends and things but but yeah,

definitely I'm like less expressive. I'm

less emotionally intelligent than my

wife.

>> Has she ever given you feedback that she

wishes you were more emotionally

uh available? I mean, I get that.

>> I mean, yeah. Yeah. in in different

words perhaps, but yeah, basically

>> Sonnie.

>> Yeah, Sonnie

>> is her name.

>> She wrote a letter.

>> Oh gosh,

>> that's funny because the first two words

are, "Oh gosh, an intimate letter out

loud."

>> Oh gosh, she she does know me.

>> Obviously, this is your worst nightmare,