Gary and Mary Ruth, we've been working

on this story for a long time, and we'll

tell you right up front that it's going

to be hard to swallow at first.

>> In 1989, a softspoken scientist in

Nevada went on local television and said

something that would baffle the world

for the next three decades.

>> Do you copy over? He said that he had

worked at a secret government facility

called S4 just south of Area 51 in the

Nevada desert where his job, his actual

job was to reverse engineer the

propulsion system of a craft. A craft

that was not made by human hands. A

flying saucer 53 ft in diameter. No

seams, rivets, panels, buttons, wiring,

or controls.

Ladies and gentlemen, today's guest is

the white whale of American Alchemy

guests, the enigmatic and ever elusive

Bob Lazar.

>> Robert Lazar.

>> Robert Lazar.

>> Bob Lazar.

>> Lazar. Bob Lazar.

>> Bob Lazar.

>> Bob Lazar. That Lazar dude freaked me

the out, man.

>> Oh, he's a freak out.

>> Bob is basically a walking paradox, a

human head spinner. He almost feels like

an optical illusion of a person. Back

then, Area 51 meant nothing.

>> We've now heard a former director of

national intelligence who oversaw all

American intelligence agencies openly

discuss a UFO tracking program housed at

Area 51. Specifically, we've also seen

past directors of the CIA, congressmen

and women, and whistleblowers across

agencies endorsing the existence of a

decadesl long multi-generational UFO

crash retrieval and reverse engineering

program.

But Bob is an anomaly. He's on an

island. He's still the only person to

have gone public claiming he worked

directly on a craft of nonhuman origin.

We've speculated about his story for

years. Today, we get to talk to him

directly.

>> They really wanted to see if they could

affect the flow of time. Just did they

have a stated purpose for

>> No.

In this interview, we get to ask him our

most skeptical questions about his

background, his education, his past, how

he knows what he knows, and why he

hasn't been forced into silence. John

Lear was super into UFOs before you got

the job. Why do you think it didn't come

up in a background check? There are a

lot of people out there who say you

faked your educational credentials. Did

you ever wonder why they didn't view you

as a liability? But we also ask our most

awe inspiring questions.

We learn new details about where the

craft he worked on was actually

retrieved. We discuss the beings that

may have occupied it, where they come

from, and what they want with humanity.

We even learn about Bob's current home

laboratory experiments. He's still

investigating the gravity altering force

he encountered while working on a flying

saucer in the8s. You heard me right. Bob

is currently working on exotic UFO

science in his personal lab. How did the

reactor work? Through X-rays, we were

able to determine that there's a hollow

tube.

>> But this interview gets even crazier

than that. I surprise Bob with a

scientist at NASA who's doing his own

experiments on anti-gravity.

>> What kind of voltage are you using

>> right now? About 400 volts.

>> That's unbelievable.

>> I also had the honor of showing Bob

legendary never-beforeseen footage of a

UFO at Area 51.

People have been trying to get their

hands on this specific footage for

years.

>> Ready?

>> Yeah.

>> I'm going to the beginning. Here we go.

>> Holy moly.

>> Oh.

>> This interview spans multiple days with

both Bob and filmmaker Luigi Vendetti,

the maker of S4, the Bob Lazar story.

Luigi has spent four years working

closely with Bob to depict exactly what

he saw and worked on at S4 in vivid

hyperrealistic detail.

>> We really really paid attention to what

Bob said throughout the entire time. So,

we didn't we didn't invent anything.

>> Without further ado, please welcome this

week's American Alchemist. The man who

helped reverse engineer a UFO went

public and lived to tell the tale. The

original UFO whistleblower, Bob Lazar.

>> Ignition sequence.

>> How is this possible?

>> Nothing too unusual about that.

>> Their existence cannot longer be denied.

We're living through the biggest

transformation of the financial system

in a hundred years and most people are

still using the same platforms their

parents used. I started to investigate

the financial space in 2012 because I

genuinely believed that the fiat dollar

system was broken. Not slightly broken,

structurally, fundamentally broken. It's

what you might call a long con or

perhaps a Ponzi scheme. I started to

believe that a transparent decentralized

alternative wasn't just possible, it was

necessary. I've spent 13 years

researching it, living it, talking to

the most serious minds building it.

Kraken is the platform I kept coming

back to with my own money. So, when we

finally decided to bring on our first

ever financial sponsor in four years of

doing this show, we went to them because

I've used the product and I already

believed in what they're building. Every

other investing platform is essentially

the old system with a better app on top.

Kraken is different at a foundational

level. They've been operating since

2011. Through every market crash, shout

out Mount Gaus, every industry collapse,

every moment other platforms failed

their users. And when everything went

catastrophically wrong in this industry,

the people responsible for making

customers whole didn't go to the biggest

names in finance. They came to Kraken.

On top of that, they publicly prove, not

promise, prove that every dollar you

deposit is fully accounted for. Anyone

in the world can verify it at any time.

No fine print, no blind faith, just

proof. You can buy stocks in crypto in

one place, earn better rewards than any

investment account you've ever had, and

send money anywhere in the world without

those annoying fees your bank charges

you for the exact same thing. Again,

I've never taken on a financial platform

as a sponsor in four years of this show.

Having full control over your money

shouldn't be about belief. It's the

whole point. So, go to kraken.com/a

to learn more and get $25 in Bitcoin.

Again, that's kraken.com/a.

Owning the power of your money isn't

just a belief, it's the whole point. One

of the main reasons I'm able to go

multiple hours on these podcasts while

staying mentally sharp is because of

this little drink. It's a product I

started using years ago and it's called

Ketone IQ. I know the founders Jeff and

Michael personally, and I was thrilled

when they agreed to sponsor the show

because it's one of the few products I

trust to give me clean, sustainable

energy. I've been taking a little shot

of this thing during every long

recording and it lights my brain on

fire. As you can see, Bob even took a

shot during this one. Reason I keep

coming back to these products is because

I don't really do coffee. Coffee gives

me a spike of energy and then at some

point I get jittery and I crash. Ketone

IQ is fundamentally different. It gives

you clean, steady mental clarity with no

crash and no jitters. Here's the science

behind why it actually works. When

you're running on glucose or sugar, as

your brain is most of the time, it's

essentially burning dirty fuel. Your

brain could be like a Ferrari, but

you're feeding it 87 octane fuel all the

time. Ketones are what your brain

actually prefers when it's operating at

its best. Normally, you'd have to fast

for days in order for your body to

switch from glucose to ketones. This

little shot of Ketone IQ gives you the

ketones directly, so your brain runs the

way it's supposed to without any spikes

or crashes. It was originally developed

through a multi-million dollar

Department of Defense contract for elite

cognitive performance under stress. Bob

Lazar probably could have used that at

S4. So, the same technology that's used

by soldiers in high demand environments

is now available to anyone in the form

of this little drink. So, visit

ketone.com/alchemy

for 30% off your subscription order,

plus receive a free gift with your

second shipment. That's

ketone.com/alchemy

for a whole 30% off. Or find ketone IQ

at Target stores nationwide and get your

first shot free.

Bob Lazar, I don't even know what to

say. This is a Makea-Wish day for me.

This is an absolute honor. I'm so

grateful for you uh being here. I have

so many questions for you because uh

there are a lot of people who say

they've seen things in the sky or

they've had ephemeral experiences

sometimes even with beings. There are

very few people who have consistently

held to the exact same story uh over the

last almost four decades now. And it

involves working on a craft and

essentially reverse engineering or

parallel process engineering what is a

craft of nonhuman origin, an exotic

craft. And so you are really one of one.

And uh I can't wait to dive in. And I

just want to thank before we start uh

Luigi Venditelli who is the amazing

creator of this movie that you are in.

physical evidence now exists which

proves that there is life elsewhere and

at least one form of that life has been

here.

>> I want to start with your childhood and

uh what was little Bob Lazar like? I

guess he was like a little scientist. I

mean uh I wasn't into sports at all. Uh

still aren't. Um, instead of playing

with toys, I take apart clocks and

things like that that my parents had

and, you know, put them back together. I

was just very inquisitive.

>> Were you a rule breaker at all?

>> Yeah, for the most part. I really had a

problem with authority.

>> So, I really didn't didn't matter if it

was my parents or teachers, whatever,

telling me what to do. I said, I just

don't recognize your authority to tell

me that I can't do what I'm doing. And

um yeah, that's that just seems to be

part of my DNA.

>> Yeah. It seems to be a running theme in

your life. Did So the authority felt

sort of arbitrary to you. It's like why

are you in a position to have any power?

>> Right. Right. Right. You're not even You

really don't even understand what I'm up

to and you know you're already trying to

put the gibash on it here. So um No. Go

away and leave me alone.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any

interest in UFOs, aliens, anything like

that as a kid?

>> No. No. No. I thought that was all

silly.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, I was always into science and

science fiction. When I was a little

kid, I watched I think like five and

six. I watched that uh oh the super

marionation series like u fireball XL5

and Thunderbirds and you know they were

all uh like marionette shows but they're

all space and ghoul and rockets and you

know that oh this is all great

>> you know that's what

>> and then later on you know Star Trek

science fiction because it always looked

like

>> that it was just a prediction of the

future to me

>> it didn't look like it was you you know,

stuff that was never going to come true.

It just looked like eventually the

stuff's going to happen. And for the

most part, science fiction turns into

science given enough time.

>> Becomes science fact.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Were there any inspirations sci-fi wise

that uh you felt had like a a real

impact on you as far as your, you know,

what you were interested in as a kid? uh

you know, everybody my age, a boomer

that's an engineer, doctor, scientist,

whatever, they'll always point back to

Star Trek and always give that a nod

because that was so that was probably

the biggest thing back there in the 60s

and 70s.

>> Yep. And so where did you grow up?

>> Well, I was born in Florida, but uh most

of my growing up, you know, I was

cognizant of what was going on was Long

Island.

>> Okay.

>> New York. Yeah.

>> Interesting. you ended up at at Pierce,

is that right? Or what was the what was

the kind of progression from?

>> I just moved around. I mean, you know,

it depends where I was at the time when

I went California and, you know, on the

East Coast. So,

>> Yep.

>> It was it was just location dependent,

you know, as like I mentioned the other

day, I moved so much.

>> Yeah.

>> Um Yeah. It was almost like a military

family.

>> Yeah. Was it was it cuz your dad had

jobs that he was switching around or

what was going on?

>> I really don't know what it was,

>> but um we just we were just always

moving.

>> Yeah. Interesting.

>> And you know, always

have to make new friends and and

whatnot, but uh

>> I don't know. It was just the way it

was. My father always did some weird

things, had strange things up his

sleeve, so I don't know what was going

on. Yeah, I think there was some

potentially shady stuff going on in the

the background. So,

>> interesting. Okay. What did he do

professionally just like surface level?

>> Um, he had I know he had some connection

to the mob at some point. I mean, he had

like a

>> a food business uh wholesale food

business, you know, that distributed

food to grocery stores, you know, all

over the place. But there was and he had

big connection to raceh horses. I mean

>> I remember when I was a little kid of

the uh what do they call it harness

racing

>> you know where they sit in the little

silky behind the horse little two-

wheeled contraption. Um, you know, I

remember those guys,

um,

the jockeys, riders, whatever you want

to call them, but I remember, you know,

playing in the living room and hearing

those guys deciding who's going to win

the race and things of that sort. So, I

mean, I I knew that there were some

shady things going on. M

>> and yeah, whenever you have raceh horses

and tracks, there's often some

>> Yeah, especially shut down in the, you

know, early '7s and stuff. It couldn't

it couldn't be more corrupt.

>> Absolutely.

>> You know,

>> interesting. Okay. And so he was

involved in that, but maybe there was

some other stuff kind of going on in the

in the background.

>> Yeah. Nothing where people are hurt or

anything like that, you know, not not

mob stuff, but uh

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I mean,

just some questionable things that never

talked about.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I mean, we did we did move around a

lot, but um

>> spent most of the time either in

>> Well, depends what year, you know, I was

somewhere.

>> And were were you into nuclear science

as a kid as well or just kind of like

>> No, just science. I mean, okay. My

friends were uh I had a friend whose u

dad was a chemistry professor. So, you

know, we'd go and hang out with him and

bring home chemicals and, you know, play

with them. But I was Yeah. From as young

as I could possibly be was always

tinkering around with something science

related.

>> Yeah. So, at at school, what was that

like? You're this rebellious kid. You're

into science. Did you hate school

because you saw

>> I hated school because it's just

interfering with my time. I want to get

home and get back to tinkering with my

stuff. You know, I don't

>> you know, you you couldn't bore me any

more than I was. I didn't want to go to

music class. I don't care what they're

doing here. And uh you know, everything

is social studies. I don't care who won

what war. Just let me go home. You know,

I've got other things I'd rather learn.

But you know the classes that I was in

um that matched my interest I did well

with but everything else was a waste of

my time.

>> What were you tinkering with at home?

>> Probably at that time probably

electronics and chemistry.

>> Okay. And then how how did you get the

job at Los Almos?

>> At the time I was working at uh

Fairchild Electronics in in Semi Valley,

California.

and I was just tired and burned out of

that and uh just sent a resume to Los

Alamos, but really laid heavily on the

stuff, not my work history,

things that I did aside from work. I

took my wife's little Honda, built a jet

engine from scratch, and put it in

there.

Then, in fact, that was one of the

things I, you know, sent in a resume to

him. Oh, by the way, I built this car.

And uh yeah, when I moved there, the

local paper put that on the front page

cuz they thought that was really cool.

And that's why most people remember me

at that time because I drove it to work

at Los Alamos. Yeah. In fact, they

yelled at me for you can't run the jet

coming into the lab because it scares

the out of everybody.

>> How fast would the car go?

>> 212.

>> Jesus.

>> Yeah. Yeah. On on that car is super

dangerous. I would never do that. That's

insane. Yeah. But

>> so you're putting like a Bugatti engine

on a Honda Civic and you're like

>> Yeah. In in a way. Yeah.

>> Unbelievable.

>> Yeah. It's silly, but you're stupider

when you're in your 20s. Yeah.

>> Well, what was your top speed?

>> 212.

>> Yours was 212.

>> Yeah. You went El Mrage Dry Lake in

California.

>> You're insane.

>> May maybe be, but that's how fast the

car went. But the Honda Civic is not set

up for the the jet engine that you put

on like

>> Well, it was after I put it in there.

>> Oh, so you you helped with the

suspension and some of that stuff you

improved. Wow,

>> that's impressive, man. That's cool.

>> Well, while working at Los Alamos

National Lab in 1982, the local

newspaper did a front page story on a

jet car I had built. Coincidentally, Dr.

Edward Teller was giving a speech at Los

Alamos that same day.

>> So Edward Teller for the audience was

the creator of the hydrogen bomb.

>> Coincidentally, that same day on

>> paper, if you turn over the front sheet,

was the advertisement for Ed Teller

coming the next day.

>> Wow.

>> Giving a lecture, you know, at the lab.

So,

>> so he go you go to a like a talk he

gives or something.

>> Yeah, he was about to give a talk. I got

there early. He's sitting outside

reading the paper cuz the door was

locked.

>> Uhhuh.

>> So that's I I wanted to go super early

too cuz I thought maybe it's going to be

crowded or whatever.

He's reading the front page of the paper

because or else I really didn't know how

to go and say anything. But I went, "Oh,

it's the perfect segue. He's already

reading about me. So, I'm like, "Hi, Ed.

I'm the guy you're reading about there."

>> What was Edward Teller like?

>> He's a grumpy old man.

>> That's just the only way I could

describe him.

>> Did he have uh any sort of distinct

accent? He has a distinct accent.

>> That teller. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Giant eyebrows and Yeah. I

mean, he looked exactly like himself.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. And so,

what was the conversation like? Are you

like, "Hey, that, you know, that's me."

And then what did he what did he say?

>> H he said, "Well, that's that's

fascinating, but it, you know, I can't

remember it verbatim, but he said,

>> but it is grossly impractical."

>> I said I said, "Yeah, it's not made to

be a practical uh, you know, mode of

transportation." And then we only spoke

for a short time and then you can hear

the door uncclick, swing open, and a guy

greeted him. Oh, Mr. Teller. And so they

brought him inh. And you know, that was

that. But as time went on, I made

reference to that meeting when I sent

him a resume after I had moved on from

Los Alamos and he remembered me and

that's who directed me to EGNG,

>> how this all started to go to S4.

>> Have you ever seen there's a there's a

video of um Edward Teller being

questioned on his relationship with you?

>> It's really funny because he

First of all, he goes into he's being

questioned on nuclear propulsion and he

like doesn't want to get into it. It's

very clear.

>> And then he's questioned on you and he

has the exact same reaction.

>> It is in my opinion not interesting. I

don't intend to answer it. If you ask me

that question on camera, I will shut up.

I will sit silent.

You're not going to get an answer out of

me on that.

>> Okay.

And if I ask you on camera, if you know

Bob Lazar, can you just say no?

>> Have you sit silently?

>> I mean, I spoke to the guy before he

went and interviewed Teller.

>> He was one of Teller's students

>> and he said, you know, I'm going to

bring up you to Tell her. And I went,

that would be awesome.

>> Yeah.

>> And it would be awesome to see how fast

he denies me.

>> Yeah. you know, and he did immediately,

you know,

>> but he denied you in the same way. First

he goes, yeah, technically you could

get, you know, a real power source from

nuclear and basically implying he knows

a lot about it, but he's not going to

talk about it.

>> Yeah, he I think he said, yeah, is there

anything other than fish and refusion?

He go, that's right. No, nothing that

anybody would be interested about. Yeah,

but there's total annihilation, you

know, and and um yeah, he just

completely discounted that, which is

>> interesting for Teller. Do you think

that he's talking about because you talk

about this 115 you you hit a

>> I don't know if that's what he's

referring to and then you get this

matter antimatter annihilation thing.

>> I don't know if that what it was

referring to but he's also but he's

clearly not addressing the most powerful

nuclear reaction there is. And why would

he do that? And he's clearly also

denying

the nuclear knowledge in the same way

that he's denying his link to you, which

to me is such a tell that he obviously

met you.

>> Yeah. That it's really weird that he

would do that.

>> And so you were you were at Los Alamos

and and um were you working with other

physicists at the time or what was your

main kind of like day-to-day

responsibility there?

Well, it it it changed. Um,

>> I did some I was building I think uh

this was for the particle accelerator.

They wanted to be able to trim

>> the voltage to a a very fine degree. So,

I was building some high voltage power

supplies, stuff that's insulated by

fiber optics, so you can make

adjustments, you know, from a distance

without interfering with, you know, the

electric fields or anything. Um, and

daytoday there was just maintenance on

the targets and experiments we were

doing. So, it's cryogenics and, you

know, dealing with uh high power magnets

and

I mean, what else? Radioactives

materials.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, you know, Los Alamos stuff. I mean,

I'm just trying to remember what I did

every day, but it was uh nothing. It was

there was no really regular routine.

>> You know, we'd either be working on

getting ready to do an experiment. So

we'd be working on, you know, the

detection equipment.

>> Yeah.

>> Or setting up the experiment and um it

all had to do with uh

you know the output of the accelerator

and

>> adjusting that.

>> So this was a particle accelerator.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Oh, interesting.

>> Yeah. It's a half mile long linear

accelerator in Los Alamos.

>> Oh, cool.

>> And the beam splits off. Mhm.

>> It uh it comes down and it it splits off

into different experimental areas. So it

you can conduct a whole bunch of

different experiments, you know, just

from one okay

>> one beam. And they can put different

things in the targets to make different

particles and go different directions.

And depending on the speed of the

particle going by and its spin and how

long it's in transit, you can calculate

its mass and you know backtrack and then

put things together. And you know

analogy I always gave was uh it's it's

like if you wanted to analyze a Swiss

watch,

>> but you really couldn't look inside. But

so you could take it and throw it as

hard as you can at a concrete wall.

Yeah. And then it bust apart and all the

pieces go flying off.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, by looking at those pieces, you

could backtrack everything.

>> You could see if one was spinning a

certain direction and you know the

rotation and the how fast it came off,

then you know the mass of it. if it was

turning before and by the angles you can

put it back there and eventually you can

reassemble the thing and see how it was

made just from the particles flying

apart. So essentially what an

accelerator does is smash something

apart and then we can figure out how it

all goes together just by monitoring

those particles.

>> It's so cool.

>> Yeah. So I mean that's that's that's

what I did at Los Alamos.

>> Did you did you get the sense that there

were two branches of science? science

that was a little more classified and

then public science.

>> No, not at that point.

>> Not at that point.

>> Not at that point. I thought we were all

on the same level.

>> Yeah. Now, I know um you can't say why

they erased you from MIT. And there are

a lot of people out there who say you

faked your educational credentials. You

have very good, I think, reason that at

least passes, you know, Joe Rogan and

some other people who I really trust

their sniff test. He said that he was

working on something for the government

at and they sent him to MIT to

learn something.

>> But I will ask you, is there anything

you can say high level that hints at why

you can't talk about why you were at

MIT?

>> Well, I was sent there.

Okay. And um

if you're sent like there for a specific

reason um maybe to do some classified

research or work.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

it's going to be off the books.

>> Yeah. I mean, but it's also you also

can't talk about it because it's still I

mean, look, the government's never going

to come and prosecute me for at least I

hope not for releasing information about

S4. Yep.

>> But

assuming I was working on a weapon

system,

>> that's always that's still covered under

the security agreement. And at this

point in my life, I just don't want to

make any waves.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> So, no, I think that's very reasonable.

It's also I I should note, and this is

me talking and not you, MIT Long is a

university, you know, affiliated

research center. It's called a UARC and

they do all sorts of classified stuff.

You know, they have a

>> Yeah. Yeah. super soldier program. They,

you know, were always at the forefront

of nanotechnology. And so, uh, the idea

that, uh,

>> well, anything I would have potentially

been working on wouldn't be so

outlandish as super soldiers or it'd be

just very conventional.

>> Sure.

>> Um, you know, but still classified

material.

>> Yeah. Touching stuff. I think I think I

think it's just helpful because um

>> this stuff is circulating out there and

you know the idea that you would get

sent to that school specifically and

work on something that you can't talk

about is very

>> get sent but if I would have got

theoretically hypothetically yeah

>> if you got sent there

>> if I got sent there uh you know I yeah

there's a very clear possibility I

wouldn't be able to talk about it and

I'd be working on some classified stuff

>> if you wanted to hire a guy who could

think clearly out of the box and help

solve problems, but who could be

discredited if you needed to do that.

Bob was probably the best person in the

country at the time. He was perfect for

it.

>> George Knap was originally this very

instrumental part of Breaking Your Story

in 1989 as part of KA.

>> Uh did you you took him to Los Alamos,

is that right, at some point? Yeah, I

told him all this Los Alamo stuff and um

I said, "Well, let let's go there. I'll

show you." And

>> uh security was a little more lax back

then.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh so I we got in a plane and uh you

just rented a car and you know at that

time everyone I knew still worked there.

So, including the guards who get in,

hey, Bill, Bob, you're back, you know,

and so

>> we're in and uh,

>> you know, just took judge everywhere.

There's my desk. Here's this. And, you

know, walk in here and I still knew

combinations to places. I'm sure it was

not all 100% legal, but yeah,

>> George just walked around, filmed

everything, spoke to people that I

worked with, and he said, "All right, we

can check that box off." And then u,

>> we went back.

>> Yeah. And I so because I also you know

again I want to uh address some of these

like detracting comments circulating

online. There are people who are like oh

he just quizzed the physicists you know

at Los Alamos but he really had some

other job there or something. First of

all like your your uh description of a

particle accelerator and and how to

actually you know detect subatomic

particles I think was you know first

class. And then second, you have a guy

in George Knap, which you are, you have

to either um accuse him of some sort of

collusion or something in his

orientation towards you or admit that

you showed him around. People knew your

name. You know, he saw it. Yeah. And

clearly he was trying to sus you out by

asking you to invite him, right?

Presumably.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I just don't pay attention

to the detractors and the nonsense. I

mean,

>> yeah.

>> To me, we're

We're we're past that

>> now. I never met Dr. Teller again, but

in 1988, when I decided to reenter the

scientific community, I sent him a

resume and inquired about a job. Dr.

Teller responded by telephone and told

me that he was no longer active, but

just functioned in a chief consultant

capacity. He gave me the name of a

contact to call in Las Vegas. I made

that call and things progressed from

there until I got into the program at

S4.

>> And so, you send him the resume and he

remembers you somehow. And which

>> Yeah, cuz I made mention of the jet car

in Los Alamos. Yeah.

>> And then and then he sends your resume

to EG&G and then you get a job there.

>> I don't I don't know if he sent it. He

>> uh when he did reply to me, he he gave

me information, contact information for

EG&G.

>> So I don't know if he he said or just

have a look at this young man or

something like that or or if he did send

the resumes. I I don't know what

happened behind the scenes. Did you know

anything about EGNG at the time or

>> I know they did measurements. They did

all the uh I mean those are the guys

that came out and figured how to you

know photograph a you know an exploding

nuclear bomb without it getting

overexposed. Um they did all kinds of

things. Make giant flash tubes so you

can photograph cities from bombers and

and stuff. So um

that's about all I knew. I knew they

were just uh you know a contractor that

did weird stuff for the government but

you know leaning heavily in the nuclear

testing area.

>> It's a company that is the namesake of

Doc Edertton who was MIT faculty

actually and

>> Edgarin Grimmer Housen and Greer.

>> There you go.

>> Many types of cameras will be in use.

The most important are fast tacks which

operate up to 9,000 frames per second

and expose that entire footage in a

fraction of a second. Have you looked at

any of the other, you know, I obviously

you're really into nuclear and then you

worked on UFOs. There's this amazing

book that I always cite that I'm sure

you're aware of, Luigi, called UFOs and

Nukes by a friend of mine named Robert

Hastings. And he talks about UFOs like

tic tac, saucers, orbs, all these

different shapes and sizes of UFOs

showing up at nuclear bases all across

the US.

>> I've certainly heard that.

>> Isn't that interesting? And there are

167 whistleblowers who are on what's

called the PRP program where they have

to report if they're taking ibuprofen

cuz they're guarding the crown jewels of

American defense.

>> Oh, really?

>> 167 of these guys.

>> Wow. I mean, there's really 167 of those

guys.

>> 167 of these guys. It's really why they

have

>> Yeah,

>> that's that's incredible. I mean, that

should be investigated further and I I'm

sure it is, but not publicly. But there

I mean you're talking about nuclear

sites. If you're talking about nuclear

sites, you are at the very core of

national security.

>> So my point is is if you're doing the

photography of that early on, you've got

to have some asymmetric knowledge of UFO

stuff. That would be my guess.

>> Yeah. They were the guys documenting and

photographing everything from every

angle from everywhere.

>> Yes.

>> So if in fact all that stuff was going

on,

>> AG&G had to catch something.

>> Totally. and EG it keeps coming up for

me too in my own investigations even

there's this thing called the you know

the Wilson Davis memo where the

scientist uh who actually lives in

Austin his name is Eric Davis meets with

uh the head of J2 joint chiefs uh who

under whose purview is all military

technology a guy named Admiral Thomas

Wilson and they're in the parking lot of

EG&G and Thomas Wilson is like furious

that he doesn't have oversight over this

specific corporate program which seems

to be reverse engineering exotic UFO

material. So you get a job at EGNG.

uh what's your first touch point there

and and so you you have a little bit of

context but

>> yeah I originally went in there I didn't

know what the job was but they

interviewed me for that and somewhere in

the middle of it they said you know we

actually have

>> a different job that we're thinking of

plugging you into now I think I went to

the bathroom and when I came back they

said we're changing channels um we think

we have and I think

>> so I don't know if they were both

something at S4 or

uh something else is going to be for

EGNG or the department of enable

intelligence and then they thought maybe

S4 would be a you know a better fit. I

don't know what again what went on

behind the scenes but there were two

jobs there and they decided I'd be

better off with the second one and the

second one was S4 out at the Papoose

Lake area.

>> And what what were they screening for?

like what what do you think they were

asking you and trying to get at and then

when you go to the bathroom why do they

>> I don't know

>> shift and they say this guy's actually

going to the that UFO thing we're stuck

on this guy's going to break it wide

open he could be a good

>> hire there

but I think they were stuck and I think

they

>> they were they kept be you know just

because of the way the place is arranged

um they kept trying to attack the

problem from the same direction all the

time,

>> you know,

>> which is only going to yield the same

result. In fact,

>> if you expect it anything else, you're

nuts,

>> you know, as the definition of crazy,

right? Doing the same thing and

expecting different results. Um, but um

yeah, most of their questions was not

about um my technical knowledge or work

experience. It was what I did after work

>> and you know like the projects I built.

Why did you do that? Um and I I think

they were just looking at trying to find

somebody that was outside of the box.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think that's where I fit because

before that you had really straight lace

scientists, physicists, technicians, you

know, that abided by the rules and all

that and they looked we need a little

push from another direction. And I mean,

it's my guess. I think that's why they

popped me in there.

>> At that point, do you have any idea what

you're getting yourself into?

>> No. No. But that, you know, they said

it's at a remote area and the work hours

can vary. Some people are out there for

uh two weeks on, one week off.

>> Yeah.

>> Um some pe and you know, depends if

they're married or not or anything and

you know, can spend that much time out

there. Some people only go out three

days a week and you know so and some

people are just on call and you know for

the time being it would probably just

probably need you sporadically going out

there on call and you know till we get

you up to speed and do you have any

problem with traveling? And I said, "No,

no, no." You know, so I thought, "Wow,

if it's out in the desert, um, it's

probably I thought it was the only thing

I knew about the desert was at that time

it's a nuclear test site."

>> So I thought I thought it was weapons

related and, you know, specifically

nuclear weapon related

>> and I was going to be at the you know,

the nuclear test site at somewhere, you

know, stationed near Mercury.

The way it worked was they'd call me at

random days and they'd say, "Mr. Lazard,

it is now such and such time. We need

you to come out today." So, I'd go out

there. I drive out to EG&G Special

Projects, which was right in McCarron

Airport. At that time, I'd go through a

little security there and then out on

the tarmac and board one of the Janet

flights. They were only used by the

government for going back and forth to

the test site. 363 Las Vegas to Tower.

Runway 26 right away. Traffic downfield.

>> Yeah. We just took off and landed and uh

>> I still thought I was at the you know I

didn't know it. I was at Area 51.

>> Yep.

>> And you land at Area 51. Yeah. And

>> first of all at that time Area 51 meant

nothing.

>> It's just this is known as Area 51.

Okay. as all the all the you know the

test sites split up into areas. It's

area 2, area 5, so it's 51. Okay.

>> At what point uh do you go to ask for

>> you know these I've told the story so

much and it's been so long. All the days

kind of mix and infuse into one now. So

I can't separate what you did on that

day. What'd you do on the third day? I I

don't know. you know, um,

>> of course,

>> but I don't think we drove down on the

first day.

>> I think it was just a paperwork and

stuff day. Uh, but the second day for

sure, we drove down, um, got in the bus

and it was a long bumpy ride. Um, and

that the windows were blacked out on the

bus

>> and it was just a navy blue painted bus

and it it seemed like we went south. Mh.

>> Um, by the time we got there, got off

the bus, I I mean, the sun was setting

to my right.

>> And then what happens next?

>> Well, I mean, when you mean when I got

there?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, that's where we Dennis led

me in.

>> Mhm.

>> Um,

>> and who's for the audience?

>> I guess you can call him my supervisor,

but he was kind of my shadow and

everything. He was just attached to me.

>> This is Dennis Mariani.

>> Dennis Mariani. Yeah. And so he leads

you in.

>> Yeah. He leads me in. There's a there's

a guard there. Um we get past him and

then they had to train the uh hand

reader

>> to give me a a card

>> to open the doors. So that's the first

time I saw that hand scanner.

>> Mhm.

>> I get the card, he shows me this. You

swipe on the door and it records every

time you come in and out and do

everything. And

>> is there a body guard or like a

>> No. No. Once you're in the room with the

scanner, there's nothing. There's just a

door you open up. But it's just a really

long

>> Yeah.

>> really long corridor and just kind of

it's not modern. Looks old. It's just

painted cinder block with light green

and dark green. Kind of looked my old

kindergarten or something.

>> It's this vast expanse. And is all of it

underground or in a mountain or

>> It's kind of on the side of a mountain.

>> Okay. you know, it's so the hangers are

right on the side or it's a hill, I

guess, what, however you want to

describe it. Sure.

>> So, the the hangers are there and then

the carter is in back of the hangers.

So, that gives you hanger access

>> and there were nine hangers. So, um

>> and they're fairly big. So, that

explains why the corridors were so long.

>> Mhm. And so, you're in there, you see

this vast expanse,

then what happens? We went to

review the briefings first. So that was

off to the right. We came in, there was

a desk there had somebody had already

laid out all the uh the briefings which

were summaries of the projects going on.

So they didn't go in depth, but in case

your project connected to some of these

in some way, you had to have a brief

overview of what else was going on.

Project Galileo was the first uh you

know the first briefing on there.

>> And that was your project. Yeah. And

then but you had other briefings as

well.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and and that was project

looking glass.

>> Looking Glass and what else?

>> Sidekick.

>> And Sidekick. Okay. And so I imagine you

take most interest in Galileo and but

you also look through Looking Glass and

Sidekick. Is that right? But Galileo

dealt with the propulsion system of the

craft and um and the directives that are

given. Uh there were two primary

directives is one to uh duplicate the

propulsion system or components thereof

with available materials available earth

materials it said. Um and directive two

was to be able to remotely

um disable the operation of the system.

Uh

and some I don't know how it was worded

somewhere the word at all costs was in

there. So

>> um that was really a high priority but

they wanted to u they certainly wanted

to duplicate it but they really wanted

to disable it. I do think that's an

important distinction in the mandate of

the program. It's to not necessarily

reverse engineer, but to parallel

engineer, find ways to with terrestrial

>> normal prosaic engineering build.

>> Yeah. Or come up with a hybrid system,

something. Yeah. I mean, the bottom line

is we want to produce the effects this

machine is having. So, just

>> do it. in any however you can.

>> Just yeah, just just do it.

>> Which makes sense given

>> the skill set they seem to take interest

in with you because you are this outside

of the box thinker. You're not this prim

and proper traditional academic or

something who does not want to break

rules, who might be extremely high IQ,

but uh isn't necessarily rebellious in

the way they think they think within

these sort of narrow confines they're

given.

>> Yeah, they they were just looking to

come at another angle and maybe we can,

you know, uncover something.

>> And and just for the audience, what is

Sidekick and what is Project Looking

Glass? sidekick was the weapon potential

of the craft. The craft, if you're

familiar with it, has three of the uh

emitters on the bottom. Look like large

trash cans. And they send out the

gravity waves or whatever form of energy

is, but excuse me, Sidekick dealt with

using those to focus a particle beam

>> to stop it from diverging. So there was

it it appeared to be there there was

some sort of weapon potential of doing

that

>> like a directed energy Yeah. weapon.

>> Yeah. I think it was a particle weapon.

So um I don't know where what the source

was but that's that's just what the

briefing contained in it. And um

>> are you given any other context before

reading these documents?

>> No.

>> And when you're reading these documents,

what what's going through your

>> No, it's I mean Some of the stuff in

there was just nonsense. I mean, and you

wonder is this like a test? Um, you

know, there is stuff like, you know, the

aliens had made 65 corrections to,

>> um, you know, in the evolution of humans

and things. And as Barry explained to

me, um, he said, "Look, they keep

everything classified here, but if

somebody says something,

you know, and they hear it on the

grapevine, they said, "Yeah, they've got

a disc an alien craft at, you know, down

at the test site." They don't know where

it comes from. But everybody that they

give briefings or information to, they

put unique nonsense information there.

So like if I had said anything, they,

you know, said, "Yeah, there's flying

saucers down there and aliens made 65

corrections." They go, "Lazar is the guy

that yep that." So that's I think they

put it in there to attach to a person,

you know, he got this and they make it

something enticing to say.

>> So you go through these briefings. what

happens next. At some point, I went to

the nurse who um it was the only female

that was there. Uh she she said, "You

know, we have to do an allergen test

>> and I guess they had a bunch of samples

from different materials. They drew a

little grid on my arm and then just

pricricked them and, you know, waited

for a reaction. Um, they gave me

something to drink which is supposedly

supposed to boost my immune system. It

was a, you know, a deep orange yellow

color and I think that was because the

vitamin B was in there and I could

>> I can taste that because it's it's

really a nasty taste.

>> What did it taste like?

>> Yeah, like v a vitamin B solution. Okay.

But it did but it also had a pine taste

to it.

>> But anyway, that was that. I wasn't

allergic to anything as it turned out

and eventually get go in and was

introduced to Barry who's going to be my

lab partner and um you know from what I

understand I was replacing somebody that

he worked with.

>> What was Barry like?

>> Barry I don't how would you describe

Barry? Barry was very enthusiastic.

>> Yeah. He he was really happy I was there

>> and uh really excited to show me stuff.

Um but clearly a lot had been done

before I got there.

>> Yeah.

>> If this was new, everything would be

white,

>> right? Everybody would be in,

you know, I mean, you always want labs

and everything white in case you see a

little speck of dust or a part falls

somewhere, you can identify them. You

wouldn't have, you know, wooden lamp or

lab benches and things like that. You'd

probably have people in full respirator

suits if they're just beginning, but

these guys had reached a point where it

was nonchalant where they were they were

touching, you know, working with this

stuff and um you know, it really wasn't

a thing as if they were taking apart a

car engine. So, um, they had made a lot

of progress and they weren't afraid of

what they were working with. Although we

were plenty afraid of the, uh, reactor

>> and and you, at no point were you like,

this could be some like, you know,

anti-gravity secret program that, you

know, I just wasn't cleared to. And

okay,

>> I mean, initially when I first saw it, I

went, "Oh, that's what this whole

thing's about." You know, it's it's just

>> it's just our new fighter and it looks

like a flying saucer. So that's why

people believe in flying saucers cuz

they see these new fighters flying

around and you know, but um yeah, it

became

quickly obvious that that wasn't the

case. Like we have no idea how the thing

works.

>> It does stuff that's physically

impossible and there's no country in the

world could make something like that.

>> Or have the power density that it has.

>> It's in inconceivable. So to, you know,

to to affect space and time, like if

another country was able to build

something like that, the United States

wouldn't exist.

>> You know, to anybody who who's a

detractor who doesn't who who could

think maybe this was a US object,

something man-made or something that

they put there as a prop.

>> Some people would say, "Do you think

they were trying to deceive Lazar or

other people and all that?" There's

because I built it. There's one physical

aspect of it that is impossible to build

period. 100% not possible. Is it's as

far as if we have to consider it being a

50 to almost 53 ft diameter craft. the

main level, which is the level that Bob

was able to access and and at one point

stand up in the middle of that main

level is in the center of the disc. And

there is nothing that was v visually

witnessed on the bottom level when he

peaked. That is a supporting column

holding that 53 ft diameter floor. We

have nothing

>> on earth.

>> There is no material.

>> You know, that's I that's the first I've

ever heard of that angle. That's that's

really interesting. That's

>> Well, it's cuz I built it. So, I I tell

you, I think you know more about the

craft at this point.

>> Because of the thickness of the floor

that we could see because of the lip of

the access way, we could see the

thickness of the floor. Also where the

honeycomb hatchway is, you could see the

thickness of the floor.

>> That thickness 52 ft diameter.

>> There is nothing central support that

would not be doing boring like this and

may and potentially collapse. There's

nothing. We have nothing.

>> That's that's a completely unique

structural phenomena.

>> Yeah.

>> Good job, Luigi. Yeah. Yeah. No, I never

never even entertained that.

>> That's fascinating.

>> Yeah, that's that's great. But that's

that's 100% true.

>> Yeah,

>> there's nothing that can do that.

>> Yeah,

>> that's so interesting. What is the color

of the craft itself?

>> It's kind of a Peter stainless looking,

but

>> it's Luigi and I were talking about this

the other day.

It It looks different close up than it

does far away.

>> Describe how so Jeez, I wish I could.

I've tried to describe this a lot. And

uh what's interesting

is that I my friend Jean Huff who was my

kind of confidant at the time and um you

know I tell him about this stuff and I

said you know one of the weirdest things

is if you're if you're close to it you

know it it it looks like the craft and

it and when you get far away it doesn't

look right.

It looks more like a cartoon.

>> And um so Luigi is spending

two and a half or three years modeling

this and getting it in. And sure as

hell, whatever they did, uh Luigi will

probably best tell you about that. Um

when they take the camera and they put

it in the hanger and look at it close

up, it looks like it should. And if they

back it off, it doesn't look the same.

It looks so they were able to whether

intentionally or accidentally kind of

duplicate it. I mean, they've got the

model so close that it has it it's taken

on some of the characteristics of the

actual craft.

>> And there's a part of the craft that you

describe as blacker than black. Is that

right?

>> Yeah.

>> What is that?

>> Yeah. You know what they call the port

holes around the top, which are

>> I do not believe are port holes. You

know what? I think there's a a black

ring that goes around the top part of

the craft and that's we call that the

insulator ring. Um above that I have no

idea what's in that top section but

that's where these small square/

rectangular holes are around. They are

assumed to be like some sort of planer

array where there is some something

similar to a computer in the top section

and those arrays determine whether it's

looking at starlight or whatever. Uh it

determines its place in space.

Um but they they don't look black. They

look so black

it and it's not just vent black at all.

They almost look like bottomless pits in

there, but I know they're solid. I mean,

Barry told me they're solid. Um,

I guess I don't know. Barry claimed

they're solid, so to be technical, I

don't know for a fact. I mean, but um I

still think there's some kind of

sensors, but it it's that is some

unusual material. And when you go in

there and look at the craft, it's a real

ominous, creepy feeling. And a lot of it

is because of the black just it doesn't

it doesn't look right.

>> Did anybody else say that going into the

craft gave them an ominous feeling?

>> Yeah, he did say it. It was it was

definitely unnerving I think was his

word looking at those

>> and and just being in the craft

generally. Was that like a kind of

ubiquitously known thing at S4? Like you

walked into that thing?

>> Didn't hear that from anybody but it

certainly was for me.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. Because the first thing you think,

boy, that must have been so exciting.

And

yeah, from a outsider it might be, but

no, when you're really there, it wasn't

exciting. It was it was really

frightening.

>> And you walked around the what looked

like the cockpit of this thing.

>> First of all, you can't just walk in.

It's much smaller and narrower than you

think. You have to crawl in, and you

really can't stand up until you're

almost right in the center. Um, so it

doesn't have really it's really all

unusable space.

>> Um, even if you're a small creature,

there's a lot of unusable space in

there. Um, and you know, because I

everything seemed to have a critical

function to it. Um, I'm sure there was

nothing for decoration. There's a reason

to have all that space and the reason

the craft is shaped like that. Um, but

there were three things that look like

seats.

>> We called them seats. Other humps, large

rectangular smooth objects in there.

There were three of those. Uh, we know

those to be the amplifiers. They work

with the with the reactor that amplifies

the gravity wave and it's, you know,

channelneled to the emitter which is

right under the amplifiers. Um,

again, we just called the seats because

they look like seats. It would be I

think it would be funny if it turned out

that they were not seats at all. Um, yet

another component we just knew nothing

about. Bob always found it to be really

weird uh that when the wave guide is

applied right on top of the reactor,

these two guys, they're they're looking

out. There's a there's a one of the

archways that become transparent. So

they he believes that maybe that is

where they're looking. But this guy here

is staring at a pipe.

>> Oh, the the archway becoming transparent

is so they can see.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh. Oh, it's so interesting. I never

thought like made that connection.

>> Yeah. They're looking at it.

>> Oh,

>> and there's a screen

>> like the blue screen with the symbol

>> with the like Korean like language.

Yeah.

>> And then I I've always thought and I

thought maybe they all become

transparent. Maybe the whole arch like

the whole all the archways can become

transparent. What? Why? Why would it

only be one? Cuz it's so dark in there.

>> Fascinating.

>> And you saw a translucent

like almost Korean looking symbols. Is

that right? Yeah, I saw the wall become

translucent

>> and at some point saw

>> some kind of what I would call symbols

>> but

not on a in a three-dimensional way, not

on a flat screen or anything like that.

>> Yeah. Explain how you saw it because you

were explaining it to me yesterday.

>> Yeah. It wasn't like it was a screen. Um

it was just like it was a

three-dimensional character sitting

>> almost like a projection you said. Yeah,

I he he was explaining it to me

yesterday because he explained it

actually better yesterday than before I

produced it. And you were saying it felt

it looked almost like a projection

>> on that. No, it wasn't a projection or

it was on something. It was just a

three-dimensional thing in the air.

>> Describe the day that you saw this thing

fly.

Um it was already out. Um

Barry and I were in the lab and then

Dennis came in and he said, "Hey, why

don't you guys come?" We're doing a test

flight, you know. So, oh, this is great.

So, we go out through the lab door right

into the hanger. It was already outside

uh sitting on the ground and uh shortly

after we got out there

uh oh I did notice there was a radio and

I mentioned this in Luigi's movie a VHF

radio and they're in communication so it

it

it made me almost positive that there

was somebody in the craft.

>> Yep. Uh,

I don't know how where they'd be sitting

or how they would why they're even in

the craft because it's like I said, it's

so uncomfortable and usable space.

They'd have to be hunched up or trying

to sit on the edge of one of those

seats. So, um, that put aside. Uh,

>> so you think they put a person in there

because of that?

>> I think so because they were

communicating back and forth.

>> Did you hear a voice?

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So,

>> you heard a voice coming from the craft?

No, from the radio.

>> From the radio from the VHF radio, but

presumably coming from the craft.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. So, he was monitoring. I mean,

they must have had some other

instrumentation set up in the crafts cuz

he was monitoring something.

>> Do you remember with the voice? Was it

just

>> not a thing?

>> But it was something

>> because I Yeah. I mean, I was more stuck

on the fact that how was a radio wave

getting into the craft? This doesn't

even make any sense.

>> VHF being very high frequency or

>> Yeah. I mean, it should be distorted by

the gravity wave going around it.

Anyway, shortly after the craft began to

lift off the ground silently, had a

little corona discharge glow on the

bottom and lifted off and drifted up

into the sky and kind of moved around.

Um during that test flight um Dennis

motioned for me to come out and you know

look up at it and then he told me to

walk forward and the the craft was just

sitting there stationary and I walked

out underneath it and he motioned for me

to look up. I looked up and I couldn't

see the craft.

So I thought it flew away

>> and then he said, you know, come back.

And you know, I I walked back and as I

walked back, it caught my attention. I

see the edge of the the craft. So if you

move,

>> you can see it. And if you walk

underneath it, you can't. So you can

clearly see it's it's bending the light.

You can see the sky above the craft.

>> So you can see that it's in its little

envelope. And um then it kind of slid

over to the left and right and then sat

back down. is what you saw did did it

look like

what we talk about when we talk about

UFO videos and what we you know it's

like look at the you know Nimtt's you

know 2004 fleer video or or even some of

the maybe better example some of the

optical videos which are often grainy

and fuzzy and maybe that's due to

gravitational lensing or some sort of

space-time perturbation due to these

effects that you're talking about but

when you're seeing this craft fly are

you thinking this is the UF FO stuff

that's like in the lore.

>> Yeah,

>> you are.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah, for sure. I just because of the

the way that it can move, it can just

negate.

I mean, it it's I really don't know how

to describe it. Um

I mean, things like inertia really don't

matter to it. Mhm.

>> Um

it just it gets away with murder when it

when it comes to flying.

>> Did you ever think um we are being

tasked to figure out this reactor even

like you know the shape of the craft is

sort of really confusing to us. How the

hell do they know how to fly this thing?

>> Yeah. Yeah. that goes through your head

like you're like are you are you

>> well I mean yeah like I said you know

clearly they've they've had a lot of

time sure with this craft already it

could have been decades

>> for all I know so they're familiar with

it so I mean they they knew the emitters

have to be rotated you know to couple to

the reactor I mean they knew how to fly

it um so that these guys were somewhat

proficient with it but it so it would be

your kind base case assumption that now

we have functional what you might call

alien reproduction vehicles or UFOs that

humans can fly. If in 198788

you had stuff that was you know we could

at least test and you could go under

them and stuff then you would think that

now we're pro we've probably made much

more progress I assume or what what do

you think?

>> I do not think so. No

>> you don't think so?

>> No. So you think we're we can test these

things and use them in rudimentary ways

but we don't understand how they work.

the you know

analogy I I gave you know you can go

back to the 1800s and drop off a

motorcycle

>> y

>> with the keys in it and you know you can

look at it and go wow that's never seen

anything like that before and look at

the plastic fenders on it and wow that's

unusual material and you know there's

the key and eventually if you tinker

with it long enough someone's going to

turn the key and it's going to start Yep

and they're going to go okay we turn it

off and go, "All right, that's on and

off." And you know, eventually just

given time and human human ingenuity,

they're going to get it. Throttles here

and they'll become proficient at driving

it. Yeah. But when it runs out of fuel,

we're done. And when it comes right down

to it, they can't even make that plastic

fender, right? So, yeah. So, you can

become proficient at using it.

>> And I think that's where we are. We we

had some knowledge of that. But I think

I think if we had developed that

technology, we would have absolutely

already seen it. We wouldn't be wasting

one minute building a conventional

fighter

>> or other. Why? Why would you? And they

say, "Oh, well, it's secret." Yep. So,

jet engines were secret when we first

came out with them, and we built a whole

fleet. you know, we'd we'd absolutely

divert every resource we had to

duplicating these things.

>> Do you guys think there's any chance

that the craft is flown with somebody's

mind, some sort of mental?

>> It could very well be.

>> Yeah.

>> Because there was obviously no physical

controls to it,

>> right?

When the craft was being tested, the

only test I saw from close range, they

it was already out of the hanger. And

when I went into the hanger, the bay

doors between all the hangers were open.

They had big, you know, there's the door

that leads to the outside that's at an

angle, but there's also big bay doors

between all the hangers. Those were open

for some reason. And then when I came in

uh to go witness that, I was able to

look down and see that boy, there's

other there's nine of them all the way

down there.

>> What's going through your head? And and

emotionally, how do you feel?

>> Well, first of where did they all come

from? How could you I mean, I could see

you found one somewhere. There's a crash

or whatever. You found one. You don't

find nine. I mean, where where did they

come from? None of them are are damaged

to any degree. Although the one I call

the top hat had holes in it, but it

looks like it was shot, you know, a

projectile, but there it wasn't, you

know, damage from, you know, crash or

attempted landing.

>> Um, so where did all this stuff come

from? There's so much missing to the

story.

>> Did they all look like the exact same

sort of replica?

>> No, each one was different.

>> Okay.

>> But the material all looked exactly the

same. the color, um, the sheen. So, it

looked like they were all made of the

same material.

>> So, the reactors and the propulsion were

all the same. The material was all the

same, but the shapes were somehow

different. Do you remember?

>> Maybe. I mean, maybe they're specialized

craft. You know, you can take a step

back from humanity and you go look at

all the cars driving around. Well, you

got a truck that's a real long thing.

You look at a Volkswagen, it's like a

little, you know, and you see a

motorcycle going, you know, they're all,

but they all have the same somewhat type

of engine, you know, internal combustion

engine is powering them all, so they

must have all different functions. And

maybe that's just what we're looking at.

It's just, you know, and who says

they're all men's? Maybe some of those

things are drones of some kind.

>> People associate

you with the kind of Billy Meyer sports

model, like, you know, the craft that

looks like that. Uh,

>> it looks exactly like that.

>> Exactly like that.

>> Like I thought Billy Myra was absolutely

ridiculous because I I've seen some of

the pictures and this is what I

mentioned to you the other day, UFO

researcher syndrome. I think the initial

pictures Billy Meyer took um of the

sport model looking craft are 100%

genuine. There's no way that that there

could be another one of those that just

coincidentally looks exactly like the

what I call the sport model. So I think

he he absolutely photographed that and

it was real and I think at the time he

got a lot of attention and you know they

printed books and everything and I think

as time went on

you kind of missed that and then he

started making some models and taking

some new pictures and the other pictures

look ridiculous.

>> Right. Right.

>> They do. It looks like you know

>> and there's something about like

dinosaurs in his book and

>> Yeah. I know. And it looks like there's

styrofoam balls all pointed to it and

yeah, I found some more pictures, you

know, come back. And you know, so uh I

think that's

>> you know that that's just a personal

belief.

>> Yeah.

>> You there's no way you can tell me that

those original pictures aren't genuine.

>> Yeah. And and so that's the craft you

worked on. The eight other crafts, what

did those look like?

I could only see two. Okay. Clearly,

because from the angle, all you can see

is just a little piece and then all then

all you can just see is the hanger out

there.

>> Um, but one looked like I call a jello

mold, which is more like a bunt cake

>> without the hole in the middle.

>> And then the other one, as I previously

mentioned, a top hat, like a carnival

top straw hat

>> with the and the brim had a hole in it.

So,

>> is your immediate instinct uh humans

didn't make these?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> At at what point do do you do you not

see like an American flag on one of them

or

>> Yeah, on the sport model that I saw that

like the first day that I went in.

>> Okay. Was there any talk of how these

crafts were retrieved?

Uh, I know. I mean, I know the Navy

>> got the sport model and I think that

that was from what Barry said, that was

an archaeological dig, which by the way

isn't in the desert. It's in the water,

you know, and I if there's another term

for an archaeological dig that's in the

water. I don't know what it is. I

thought it's still a dig, but um yeah,

that I don't know what body of water, if

it was the ocean or lake or what, but

yeah, that came from the water. I again

according to Barry I didn't see this in

documentation but um yeah that was

happened upon by the Navy

>> and

that's that's all I know and that's I

just theorize that's how the Navy got in

control of everything. It's what you

constantly hear is u you know you have

things like you Hughes aircraft building

the Glowar Explorer which you know subca

you know uh discovery

>> and um you have some some actually more

more recent locked subsea you know super

submarines

and drone sort of things that seem to be

able to you know uh uh scan the seafloor

and uh there's a great book called the

silent war by John Pena Craraven and he

was uh um high up in the Navy and he

talks about retrieval of exotic

technology on the seafloor and I I I

wonder you know you have Tim Bashett as

a congressman from Tennessee who says

there are five hot spots in oceans all

around the world

>> you know we we think they're coming in

from way out maybe they did millennial

ago but they're here and they're in

these deep water areas and that's why I

mean like we say we know more about the

face of the moon than we do what's

what's going on there now We have a

higher propensity of sightings around

these five or six I believe deep area

deep water areas.

>> And you I don't know there's another I

have one friend in the Navy who's you

know anonymous source maybe one day

we'll do an interview but he talks about

the movie the abyss by James Cameron.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And he says maybe that scene where you

know this sort of glowing object shows

up is isn't too far off from the truth.

So, look, one of our science fiction

movies is going to be correct.

>> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a safe bet.

>> Yeah. One of them is.

>> Yeah. And we were talking last night

with Luigi about um Pasigula, Missouri

was the uh site of uh the production of

nuclear subs for the Navy. You and you

have a famous case there of some

fishermen who, you know, experience an

alien abduction and have a UFO

experience. So,

>> yeah, there's something going on with

the ocean. There is it's been from the

very beginning.

>> George Nap has interesting footage

around Baja Mexico. On the other side

you have Tampir which seems to be a hot

spot. You have the Caribbean Bahamas.

>> That's where all these guys are hiding

out.

>> That's exactly. Do you think there's a

possibility it's you know the

ultraterrestrial hypothesis? So this is

this idea that they are ancient remnants

of a like an anti-dolivian civilization

that existed pre ice age or pre- younger

days.

>> Anti-oluvian.

>> Yeah. and that they're more advanced

than they're like the place of what we

call Atlantis are these these beings who

have coexisted co-inhabited the earth

with us.

>> It could it really could very well be. I

mean if you just look at the size of the

ocean

>> Mhm.

>> you can hide an entire civilization down

there and we'll especially if they're

immune to the effects of the ocean. Um

just got to be deep. Yeah.

>> We'll never find them. Would any of the