Don't with El Papo. Even though I I

always think there's certain political

instincts that the president has that I

don't see that end up being less wrong

than I thought and sometimes right, I do

not see any upside here.

>> Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Carara Swisser

>> and I'm Scott Galloway.

>> Y'all back. I see

>> back. That's right. That's right.

>> Did you have a good time off? Did you

have a nice time?

>> Yeah, I didn't do a whole lot, but yeah,

it was really nice. I was in Florida, a

lot of walks on the beach with my dogs.

Um, actually got kind of bored, which

was a a lovely and strange time.

>> Well, we missed you. We had some good

hosts, but no one is you. Anyway, we got

to get to things. Let's get to things.

There's a lot of news. Jesus Christ,

there was so much while you're away. I

think we've forgotten that stuff. But

Poplio says he has no fear of the Trump

administration after the president

lashed out at him on true social Sunday

night. Trump called the pope quote weak

on crime and quote terrible on foreign

policy in his post. Neither one of those

are his jobs. He accused Pope Leo of

quote catering to the radical left and

then told him to focus on quote being a

great pope not a politician. Trump later

posted an AI generated image of himself

as Jesus, though it looks like he might

have deleted it and told reporters that

he thought the image was him as a

doctor. Oh my god, he's such a liar.

We'll get to Well, let me get it all.

It's not just the Pope. Trump called out

Tucker Carlson, Megan Kelly, Candace

Owens, and Alex Jones over over their

criticism of the war last week. Alex

Jones responded, "We are witnessing the

Epstein presidency." He's a nod to Scott

Galloway there. That Candace Owens said

that it may be time to put grandpa up in

a home. Uh, let's see. We'll get to the

latest on the war, but first, talk about

this this alienation of everybody. It

seems demented. He was tweeting all last

night from like 9:00 p.m. to 4:00 a.m.

like regularly. Thoughts?

>> I I don't see the strategy here. And

granted, I think Trump has had an

ability to zag when everyone else is

zigging. I thought one of the greatest

insights in political history was when

Trump told somebody, "Everybody claims

to be socially liberal and fiscally

conservative." He said, "The key is to

be fiscally liberal and socially

conservative." And it struck me that

that was sort of a genius political

positioning.

But I failed to see how alienating a

core constituency, the Republican party,

and that is evangelical Christians by

taking on the pope. I mean, people say

social security is the third rail. I do

think the American public is coming to

grips with the fact that the wealthiest

generation in the history of the planet

probably shouldn't be taking $1.2

trillion from the most anxious, obese,

and depressed generation in history, and

that's people under the age of 40. But

that used to be the third rail, but I

would argue kind of the most obvious

third rail. You don't go after the I

mean, El Don't with El Papa. So I I

just even though I I always think

there's certain political instincts that

the president has that I don't see that

end up being less wrong than I thought

and sometimes right

>> I do not see any upside.

>> Also an articulate pope a very

articulate and younger pope.

>> Outstanding, smart, measured everything

you would want in a leader.

>> Uh what are your thoughts? I don't get

this at all.

>> I I think this guy is incredibly

popular. I don't I don't understand why.

I think he's jealous of his popularity

and his intelligence. And you know, this

guy's been speaking out as as popes

sometimes do on wars. You know, Francis

did the same thing. And we don't want to

see all this war. And the way you talk

about like last week when you weren't

here talking, you know, the decimation

of a civilization um in just as a as a

tactic. It was just demented. It was

demented. And I think he was responsibly

talking out the way a pope might do. And

he has been very firm on war. Like,

let's stop it. let's stop the war thing.

He's still, you know, awfully

conservative even though you you don't

think about it, but he see I suppose he

seems liberal because he says no war. I

don't know how that is no war cuz and he

dubtales by the way with the media with

the MAGA media which is very against the

war like not just Marjorie Taylor Green

another one there's bunches of them that

are now Tim P all of them are sort of I

mean to an extent um Rogan but he of

course you know high-fived him at this

whatever wrestling stupid thing they

were at um but I think you know they're

like mega media doesn't speak full of

MAGA I'm like they kind of do they kind

of there's millions and millions and

millions of followers and they're

growing like crazy. And so I'm not so

sure picking a fight with these mouth

mouthy people from Alex Jones to Megan

Kelly and Tucker Carlson and Candace and

Owen and um uh Marjorie Taylor Green's a

particularly good idea at this moment,

but I don't know. I think he, as I've

said, I think he's suffering deeply

cognitively and he's losing it. That's

my feeling. Just looking at the tweets

seems to me.

>> Yeah, he it does feel like he's lashing

out. I don't. Yeah, I I I'm having

trouble. Susie Wilds has ended up being

more genius than crazy. This just feels

crazy. It feels as if

>> Yeah, she's she is breast cancer. You

know, she's may not be as there as

present. She says she is, but it feels

like she's gone left the building.

>> I didn't know.

>> Um I don't know who's around him. And

then look, Marco Rubio looked like a

loser at that W, whatever, whatever was

happening. The MF whatever the fight

>> invited the UFC fight at the White

House. Yeah, you have to go.

>> No, there's no way I'm going.

>> Oh, come on. With a little camera on

your head. That would have been good.

>> I find UFC fights disturbing. I really

don't like seeing young men who are in

peak physical shape beating each other

up like that. I just

>> even boxing, which I think is I can see

is such an in some ways such

>> so incredible. U even that disturbs me

now as I get older.

>> I went to a lot of boxing match with my

grandfather when I was a kid. Not a lot,

but enough wrestling. He was into

wrestling, boxing. Uh my brother Jeff

went to a lot of them anyway. He was a

big sports and wrestling and boxing nut,

but um and was a promoter in of a lot of

stuff up in Norththeast Pennsylvania.

>> Cole and boxing and you turned out

lesbian. What a shocker.

>> What a shocker.

>> I know. I know. I think I think Trump

>> it's in the batter. You homophobe.

Anyways, I can just hear people now

going have something to do with your

environment.

>> Yes. Yes. I think it had to exactly I'm

a lesbian because my grandfather took me

to boxing. Um, so as of this recording,

by the way, the the point is it's all

about um what's happening in Iran and

with Iran and the blockade of the Strait

of Hormuz is underway with more than 15

US warships in place to support the Oh

my god, this feels like a bad idea.

Trump announced the blockade plan on

Sunday, accusing Iran of world

extortion. His threats came, he No, his

threats came after peace talks ended, as

you know, without a resolution, which

often happens. By the way, I give JD

Vance a hard time, but these things take

time. Obviously, um he was there leading

the negotiations with the US and said

Iran chose not to accept our terms. I

think there was issues around the

nuclear proliferation stuff. Um Trump is

also reportedly looking at limited

military strikes in Iran in addition to

the blockade. Um uh it's really um hard

for him because he's stuck, as you said,

he's painted himself into a corner many

times. Um they're not budging. Um and

and also uh one of I want to note we've

seen a big new type of target in this

war, big tech data centers. Last month,

Amazon data centers in the UAE and

Bahrain were damaged in drone strikes

and Iran has been threatening to attack

US companies in the Middle East. I don't

know what to say here. What a mess. He

just can't like get himself out of this

situation since these people aren't

budging. even if they're on their back

foot, they're still have advantage in a

very in a weird way the way Ukraine does

with Russia in in you know it's very

hard to unseat them.

So I actually think the illuminating

analogy here is the WGA strike and that

is key. Robert McNamera um said this

back in the Vietnam War that to to

defeat an enemy you have to really

understand them and also you have to

understand the incentives at play. And

so going back to the WGA strike, they

said, "All right, we're going to shut

we're going to go on strike, which means

your ability to create content has been

cut off." But what they didn't realize

is the most powerful person on the other

side of the table was Netflix. And

Netflix could look around and say,

"Okay,

our queue, you know, people's playlist

is 2 or 3 years deep. I could watch

Netflix for the next two or three years

and still not get through my playlist."

linear TV, especially late night TV,

which people tune in every night.

They're not interested in

watching Jimmy Kimmel run down the day

news from two years ago. The other

streaming networks who had not been

spending $18 billion a year, who had

spent 102 billion a year, their pool was

really shallow. So, the most powerful

person on the other side of the table

had an incentive to not come to an

agreement. And the WGA never recognized

that they were negotiating against

themselves because the the other side

would pretend to care and not offend

anybody and make sure the strike went on

for as long as possible to seed

advantage to Netflix as everybody else.

All that happened coming out of that

that strike was the most powerful player

on the other side of the table garnered

and registered additional value. And

this is exactly what's going on here.

And to a certain extent, JD Vance would

they poured honey on them and send them

hunting for bears because the reality is

the incentive was to draw out the talks

for two or 3 weeks

have an opportunity to maybe rearm

regroup your missile launch capability,

lay some more mines in the straight of

Hormuz. But their incentive is for this

thing to go longer because they have

stumbled upon visav our in are up your

ass strategic planning around not going

in with allies around not securing the

straight of horn moves before military

action but no goals not not enabling and

coordinating with our Gulf allies. Iran

Iran has we have given Iran something

that quite frankly is probably

more dangerous and effective than

enriched uranium and that is their

ability to put a strangle hold on a

chokeold of the global economy called

the strait. So they have an incentive

for this to go longer. Right now the

IRGC looks to be gaining strength, not

losing it through this. They have shown

an ability to resist or survive this

type of military action and they have

stumbled upon a choke point which has

given them unbelievable political

>> they had but didn't think they had

before. This is it's a really and sort

of Trump's like don't block that

straight and it'll be interesting with

US ships there now. This could be an an

economic way to squeeze them, which is

important, I think, as always.

>> Um, but it puts like I'm like a ship is

there. Oh my god, a drone, a speedboat

coming towards it. You just feel like

they're we're kind of big and right out

there. So open for attack in a way that

they don't have to do much to really

create a problem for all of us, right?

So that's 15 ships sitting there like,

"Oh geez, this guy, this is a guy who

govern who who campaigned on America

first and not this." So I think it would

only hurt his political standing here

and at the same time make him crazier

than ever when they don't behave, which

they don't want. They don't have to

behave and it's their it's, you know,

they have the I guess they have the home

advantage in some weird way compared

unless we really want to commit troops.

I can't I can't imagine being I don't

have sympathy for JD Vance because I

think he's the cyber truck of

politicians but he they really put him

like in a situation and he was not going

to succeed in these talks and he also

sent him you know failed venture

capitalist with two real estate people

and then apparently the guy who's

leading I was reading David Ignatius's

column and I'm going to mispronounce his

name so I'm not going to leading it is

one of the possible candidates to run

Iran at some point very very worldly

person high level on every ad. They sent

apparently their best people and we sent

them which is like I know we probably

sent experts with them too, but it's not

like we aren't showing our finest

diplomatic

showing if we're going to have any

serious if maybe maybe he doesn't and

he's like I don't care if it works or

not. That's not some messaging from the

president you like to hear. I don't

know. He just keeps stepping in it

because he's old. The majority of

battles are won before anyone steps on

the field and that is their supply

chain, their strength, their military,

their brute force advantage. This

negotiation was over before it started

because one group showed up with with

incentives to not negotiate or to extend

the negotiations to rearm but not to

come to an agreement. Now having said

that to be fair this is in my view the

exact right move given where we are

right now and that is that we block the

straight of Hormuz from any Iranian

ports because that will bring European

allies and China to the table who quite

frankly

>> who who have more to lose than we do now

this notion of we broke it you fix it

diminishes our credibility globally for

a long time but something we have taken

for granted

>> like a lot of things we've taken for

granted that to took huge sacrifice,

huge resources, a lot of brave patriots

from around the world giving their lives

such that we can enjoy these things. One

of those things is the freedom of

maritime navigation. And that is

Singapore has decided not to sequester

and block and control the straits of

Singapore. And if you if you start

blocking straits through the fear of

military action such that no will ensure

the hundred or $200 million of cargo

that straight is blocked off. So

everybody especially the Gulf players

and most especially Russia, Iran and

China have a vested interest in the

Straight of Hormuz being open for their

ships. So America and I think this is

the right move have said okay

>> yeah many Ignatius thought so too. But

here's the thing. I just these little

drones and these little boats, I feel

like 15 US warships. Yikes. I just feel

like we are putting ourselves way out

there and unnecessarily

now that this is our only choice. That's

the problem. I think we, let's be clear,

not going to Congress, not enlisting

Gulf allies, not enlisting European

allies, not having a a clear exit

strategy after certain military

objectives were met or not met has put

us in the definition of a quagmire. But

right now, they have to say to to China

and Iran, we're going to create an

incentive for you to make sure that the

straight is open. and a multinational

force that keep keeps the straight open

to everyone's benefit that is job that

is objectives one

here no one wants to help Trump because

he's not Jesus um but like speaking of

the sad situation for JD Vance by the

way JD Vance happens to be Catholic so

that's even better uh and he failed in

Iran which I think everyone expected

despite some lastminute campaigning from

him as well as Trump's endorsement

Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban

has been ousted after 16 years in power.

Not a good sign for the Trump people.

Orban conceded defeat in the country's

general election on Sunday, saying the

results are painful but unequivocal. His

opponent, Peter Maguar, called the

election a miracle, telling supporters

that we have liberated Hungary and have

taken back our country. By the way,

Magar was a loyalist of Orban and just

broke with him over a pardon. Um, and so

he it's like as if a rhino Republican

won essentially. He's not, you know, Mr.

or liberal in any way. More than 77% of

registered voters cast ballots. Amazing.

The highest turnout in a Hungarian

election since the fall of communism.

You know, it's a really interesting

winner. Obviously, he's super handsome

and kind of sexy and everything else,

but he's not he's not as liberal as you

think. Let's just be clear. Um, and he

also was an Orban uh in the Orban

University. He switched parties, but

again, it's very much like, oh, who who

has switched? I don't know. George

Conway becoming the president. You know

what I mean? someone who was

conservative and now is it looks as if

he's not. Um, so and and George can be

conservative and liberal and different

things, but he's also running for

Congress, by the way, but it's like

that. Is this an indicator of a larger

move away from the far right? I mean,

obviously Democrats can learn a lot. Um,

but this is a little different in in

Hungary, but it is a it's the end of an

era. And JD Vance and Trump hugged bear

hugged Orban. So, and so did uh Tucker

Carlson. So did um Elon Musk, that whole

gang did also. Thoughts

>> since the US's decision to bomb Iran or

increase whatever you want to call it,

increase the military escalation or some

people would call it a new war. This is

the biggest thing that's happened in the

last month. This is Europe uh and a key

component and a healthy important

powerful economy saying rejecting the

movement to the far right. He said nice

things about said he hopes the UK

rejoins the European Union. It is a huge

win for UK the for Ukraine. They are

pro- Ukraine and it is a huge defeat for

Russia that was hoping to turn Orban and

Hungary into a Russian satellite. Orban

was the friction that way.

>> Orban was the friction in more European

aid and support of Ukraine. It says

something. It was symbolic that JD Vance

went over there and after going over

Orban's popularity actually went down.

>> But something even more important or I

would argue more important happened.

>> The people

>> they had the the largest turnout in the

history of Hungary. More a much greater

percentage of Hungarians voted than have

ever voted in a US election. There were

people singing in the metro. There were

people laughing and crying. This was

this was really a wonderful moment for

the West. And that's still not the best

thing that happened here. The best thing

that happened and it's a real testament

to Victor Orban was he conceded the

election.

He said he he he thanked his people. He

talked about Hungary and he conceded the

election. And when I saw three judges

who were being seeking Senate approval

to become judges, and all three of those

and when I say I mean

someone who has a low character. I use

it as an androgynous comment, refused to

acknowledge that Biden had won the 2020

election. Victor Orban has greater

character now than many of our

Republican- elected officials. If you do

not concede elections, the very basis,

the very foundation of democracy does

not exist. And a right-wing, some people

would call fascist in Eastern Europe had

the decency and the character to concede

the election.

>> Yep. Absolutely. I mean, he's a, you

know, it'll be interesting to see what

he does next. He'll probably become a

right-wing figure, but it seems like

right-wingery is sort of on the way out.

This guy is a dressed up version of a

conservative for sure, but at the same

time he was, as you said, back in

Ukraine, was not a satellite of Russia.

Let's hope he, you know, he certainly

looks great. I know it's say he's he

seems young and vibrant. Orbin seems old

and corrupt essentially. And so it'll be

interesting to see which way he goes,

how he deals with, well, Trump's, I

think Trump is a past tense figure at

this point for a lot of these leaders,

whoever it happens to be. Um, but it's

really is interesting. And you're right,

this country looked like when I saw all

those crowds, all those people, I was

like, "Oh, this guy's absolute toast in

the way people are handling it." And

they just they just were sick and tired

of corruption and fascism. And this this

is a country which has suffered at the

hands of fascists and different

difficult uh leaders for a long time.

So, what's our excuse? That's what I

say. Um anyway, let's take a quick

break. When we come back, Eric Swallwell

ends his campaign for governor of

California. What a mess.

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Scott, we're back. Representative Eric

Swallwell of California says he is

resigning from Congress and has

suspended his campaign already for

California governor amid multiple

allegations of rape, sexual assault, and

misconduct. In a post on X, Wall said he

is quote deeply sorry for mistakes in

judgment I've made in my past and said

he would fight the quote false

allegations unquote. The allegations

triggered swift political fallout with

Swallwell losing nearly all of his

endorsements within 24 hours. The

governor's race remains crowded with

other leading Democrats being

billionaire Tommy Styer and former

representative Katie Porter. Just so

you're clear, this was started online by

someone named Miss Frazzled um who was

who had done a interview with Swallwell

and then had gotten a lot of incoming

about his behavior which is was very

well known across the spectrum. I did

not. But I I I think a lot of people

within politics knew about him the same

way I think many people knew about

Gonzalez. Like there's there's a lot of

men in politics that people know their

behavior. And I think this was pretty

well known, which is incredible that he

he walked into this um race with a bomb

strapped to his chest. He had to have

known. Or maybe he doesn't think he did

anything. That's what he seems to do. So

any thoughts on this? You could often

you could possibly see Kla Harris come

back in. I don't know. I don't I don't

What do you think about this? Steve

Hilton was ahead, just so you know. What

do you think's going to happen here?

>> Well, there's two things and that is its

impacts its impact on the governor's

race and then what this says about the

dynamic of of potential or accusations

of misconduct and how we're supposed to

evaluate that. So, I'll go in that

order. Uh I think this probably is going

to make Tom Star governor. I think that

California is still a heavily Democratic

state. I think if if the Democratic

if the Democrats consolidate to one or

two leaders and that person gets into

the general after the jungle primary,

what do you call I think the Democrat's

going to win and I think Starr has the

money. I think the next shoe to drop, I

think Speaker Pelosi was waiting till

there was some something resembling an

emerging leader here. I think it's Tom

Starr. I think she will endorse him. I

think he will

>> Roana already has. So is Gene Fonda,

interestingly. I think he will be one of

the two top candidates. He has the

money. The unions don't like him, but

money is more important than unions even

in California. I think I think with with

Swallwell dropping out in a

consolidation across the Democrats, I

think this is probably the moment that

we'll look back on and say this is how

Styer became governor. Now,

>> to the second issue, and we face this

all the time on boards.

>> When a senior level person has sex with

somebody and then that person accuses

them of harassment or conduct, sometimes

they're cases and

opportunistic. Other times there's a

power imbalance that the person takes

advantage of. My view on this is

the following. We We're not here and I

hate the Democratic Party for having

purity tests around people having sex. I

think when when Al Franken or whoever

gets run out of run out of dodge such

that Chris and Jill can have

>> terrible but go ahead

>> can have a sevenminute run for

presidency or people have extrammarital

affairs that in my view you know okay be

careful who you judge on this but

if you are and this is true on boards if

you once you are above a certain level

of power as a general not a general as a

red line you anybody who works

here, you're out. It creates too much

risk. So for me, the question is I if if

law enforcement needs to get involved

and decide if there was a crime here,

and sexual assault is obviously a very

serious crime,

>> needs to be investigated,

>> then have it investigated. But before

that even happens, if it's did you have

sex with a staffer as an elected

representative, if the answer is yes,

then you are out. If you're the

Secretary of Homeland Security and

you're your number two, then you

are out. If you're the attorney general

in Georgia investigating an important

case against the president and you are

your number two, then you are

out. The staffers are there to each

other, not the elected representative

who has power over them because all

you're doing is injecting risk into the

entire organization and there is a power

imbalance. So whether or not he's guilty

of sexual assault, the crime, the legal

authorities should investigate that. But

he should be out before that if he was

engaging in sexual relationships with

the staffers. There needs to be a clear

line here. There's too much of a power

imbalance.

>> What's interesting is how many people

knew about it, right? He's texted me to

he's wanted to come on the podcast and I

wrote back. I'm like, I'm waiting until

there's two left and then I'll think

about who we're going to, you know, I

think there's there was so many people

in this jungle

>> primary teams with us trying to get on.

>> Yeah, exactly. They were all every one

of them, every every candidate in

primaries, whether it's Iowa or Texas or

wherever, they're all trying to get on

these things. But I was like, well,

let's just wait till there's two, which

is what I told him. Um, but I did I did

think I was surprised to find out. And

by the way, kudos to the people online

who actually handled it rather well. It

was it was until nobody no credible

journalist from a major media

organization would look into it. Now, it

was broken. It was broken online by this

Miss Frazzled who did had done an

interview with him and then had a lot of

incoming. But she covers education. Like

that's the thing. And and I think a lot

of the political reporters had some

sense of this from what I could

understand. Um but it was broken by the

Chronicle and CNN. Um Pam Brown did a

report on it. I was sort of flumxed by

one, why would you run when this many

things were you would be aware of things

you did and then two why nobody in media

had started to look at it because same

thing with Tony Gonzalez too like a lot

of the and there's more than that in

Congress that I don't think that you

should be on a hunt for this stuff

necessarily but this was really well

known now in hindsight like I think it

was kind of healthy for the Democratic

party to speak out right to like people

to even if they were friends with him or

had endorsed him. I thought that was

relatively healthy response from the

Democratic party for lots of reasons and

there should be an investigation. That's

exactly what every single party in this

deserves and the public should expect.

And that that that was the only part I

was sort of like really it was I mean I

had no I I was s not surp I guess I'm

not surprised any time by anything but I

was amazed by how many people within

these parties both of them know this

stuff pretty well. That always surprises

me. I don't know about you.

>> Look I think we need I mean there's just

need structural reform or this will

continue to happen. We need Citizens

United to go away. We need Jeremy to go

away. We need to pay representative

Swallwell and the other representatives

five to ten times more than they're

getting paid now such that they can do

their job and not have to compromise

themselves and start trading stocks. I

heard Ro Connell, one of my heroes, is

actually outperforming the S&P all of a

sudden. We need structural reform and

part of that structural reform is very

clear lines. And that is if you are a

powerful senator or congressperson, the

moment someone comes to work,

>> say any, not powerful, any

>> any 100% any any person elected to

federal office,

it's awesome to be you. You're going to

go, you have the best rap at a bar. What

do you do? Oh, I'm the I'm the elected

congressperson from the great state of

California. Wow, I would really like to

have sex with you.

Wow. You sir, we'll we'll find a

reservation for you. Sir, let us escort

you to your plane and circumvent

security. Sir, let us be let can you be

our honored guest? Can you be the

commencement speaker at your former high

school? It is awesome to be an elected

federal official. One of the few

downsides is that anyone who works for

you that you have power over their

livelihood, you cannot have sex with.

Simple, cut and dry. No story, no

context dependent. If you decide you

have feelings for each other, then one

of you needs to resign and pursue the

relationship because it creates way too

much risk, distraction from the

important work they do. And guess what?

I I'm sympathetic. And by the I don't

I'm not one of these people that doesn't

believe in intraoffice romance. If you

get a bunch of people in a close and

tense environment, they're going to

start having sex. It's the senior level

people that have power that don't get to

do it. The young people have at it. As

long as it's consensual, as long as no

one feels pressured, that's what young

people are supposed to be doing.

>> This case has more than that. This is

not just

>> that's not this. I agree with you.

>> Right. So, I mean, that's an that's it's

it's a problem for him. Let's have some

common sense laws. Yeah.

>> Or common sense norms and standards. All

right.

>> When you have this kind of power

imbalance, you are injecting risk and

your fly is up and locked. You take it

off campus. You want to have

extrammarital affairs. You want to have

orgies. You want to have sex with people

the same sex as you while passing anti-

or homophobic laws. Fine. It's a it's a

lack of character, but you don't get

expelled from Congress. You abuse your

power dynamic and inject the entire

office to risk. You're out. Make it

simpler for them. No gray area,

>> I guess. I don't know. We'll see what

happens here. It's not a great story.

Anyway, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant

met with the country's top bank

executives last week along with Fed

Chair Jerome Powell, warning them about

Anthropic's new Mythos model. Bessent

raised concerns about cyber security,

making sure banks are aware of the risk,

taking precautions. Anthropic itself has

been sounding the alarm saying mythos is

so powerful uh it's potentially danger

it's not been released to the public

yet. Instead they're keeping it to a

small group of companies to test to find

v it finds vulnerabilities in all manner

of places. This Bessant meeting appears

to be separate from the Pentagon's clash

with anthropic which is still playing

out in court. Um, you know, this is

really a problem where the as these as

these models continue to evolve in terms

of uh staying too far ahead of the

defense. The offense is much stronger

than the defense. Um, and of course,

Bessant uh is talking to banks about

using it, but also at the same time

using it to protect themselves. What a

mess. What a mess. Another mess.

>> Yeah. I don't have a I find that the

worst thing to do right now is to be a

cabinet memory going on and trying to

trying to defend these policies. I don't

I

>> I think it is the government's interest

to help companies figure out as these

see one might start to regulate these

things in terms of the way we do

everything else nuclear arms etc etc

development of of important technologies

and if it's going to be dangerous to

companies and let everyone in the back

and take everybody's money it seems I

don't know B I mean Bessence is doing

the right thing here but it's just

ridiculous that they have that the

Pentagon is then mooring with Anthropic

which came forward which companies

usually don't in this case. Often

companies keep it to themselves until a

disaster. All right, Scott, let's go on

a quick break. When we come back, Sam

Alton's home gets targeted in multiple

attacks.

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distributor.

Scott, we're back with more news. Sam

Alman's home was targeted twice over the

weekend. Once with a suspect throwing a

Molotov cocktail and the second time

with a car stopping, firing a gun at the

residence. Lives in San Francisco. The

subject in the first suspect in the

first attack was later found at the Open

AI headquarters threatening to burn down

the building. Probably has some mental

problems. Sam Alman responded to the

first attack in a blog post saying he

emphasized with anti-technology

sentiments and clearly technology isn't

always good for everyone. In the post,

Sam Alman noted that the incident came a

few days after an incendiary article was

published about him and the New Yorker

raising questions about his

trustworthiness. He shouldn't blame the

article. It was an excellent article by

uh Ronan Pharaoh. that's not what caused

it. Uh but nearly a third of young

adults say AI makes them angry. These

are new polls. Um you know this is

unfortunately where it leads these and

and to blame using the word incendiary

was really unfortunate on Alman's

behalf. Um but there is you know this is

I hate to blame someone for what's

happening here because anyone that uses

violence is should be widely derided um

by everybody. But it still is this is

how it goes. I used to say this to them.

If you don't if you don't do something

about this, you're going to have to

armor plate your tester unfortunately

cuz people start to get really

pro violent is what where it often leads

to. Your thoughts?

>> I just think there I mean speaking of

red lines here, we just can't we can't

in any way justify we have to move

swiftly against any violence against any

citizen. And

>> you know I'm not a fan of Sam Alman. I

think big tech has done tremendous

damage and these CEOs have done

tremendous damage to the United States

and most importantly to our youth

ripping at the fabric of America. We

have to have zero tolerance for violence

against them in any fashion. And um you

know I don't like Sam Alman. I I think

he's I I we were talking about this off

mic earlier when you were on my podcast.

I think there are few people who have

seen such a 180 in their brand in such a

short side of uh span of time.

Effectively the brand march of tech

executives is they're very likable.

They're very charming. We need to do

better. She should run for president.

Oh, I love her book. Lean in. And then

over time we find out that they make a

bunch of incremental decisions that are

bad for America such that they can get

richer and richer and eventually they

turn into a bond villain. That march is

usually about a 7 to 10 year march. For

Sam Alman was 18 months. Remember Sam

was the more thoughtful guy with the

hush tones like

>> there are really really we are very

concerned about some of the implications

of AI and we need oh senator I don't I

don't own any now but go ahead

>> I don't own any equity in yeah

>> in open AI oh what a guy this nice young

gay man in t-shirts who seems to be the

caring tech CEO okay I just want to go

on record of saying this guy's going to

this guy will say say or do anything to

make more money That's why they go into

this business. There are easier ways to

find self-satisfaction than running a

tech company right now. You're there for

the money. You get tremendous pressure

and obligation to represent your

shareholders. You want to win. It is a

thunderdome. It is easy to understand

why they get there. The real failure is

there's abs fuckingutely no regulation

on these individuals. And so when people

start coming at them, like I don't like

it when people start yelling insults

verbally at JD Vance. I I think there

has to be a level of civility and safety

such that we work things out at a

government level. And I know there's a

lot of people who disagree with my views

on Israel. People don't assault me

verbally on the street. I feel like I'm

poking the bear here. I think it's

important. I saw Senator John Ton in

Nantucket. I went up to him and I

thanked him for his service. I don't

agree. I disagree with almost everything

he does and I immediately disclosed I'm

a Democrat, but I said we're both

Americans. I we one of the hallmarks of

a progressive society that we all want

to live in is we recognize we're all

Americans and as long as we're operating

with the within the confines of the law,

which quite frankly Sam Alman is, and

that's the problem is there aren't any

laws,

>> he deserves to live

>> in peace and safety.

>> Yeah. Let me say he shouldn't have

blamed the article for it. This was a

rarely well-reported article. It did

not. Suddenly people don't hate Sam

Alman because of this article. They have

these feelings and unstable people act

on them because of a perceived uh

rapaciousness by tech companies. And so

>> it's probably a mentally ill young man.

>> That's correct. That's

>> who read about Sam Alman.

>> Yeah.

>> You know the the guy who killed John.

Crazy people are drawn. They believe

that in a in a historic act of violence,

it will restore or give them social

capital. That's why they do it there. I

don't know anything about this

individual, but there's a very good

chance it's someone who's isolated and

is hoping to gain social capital through

what they see is a heroic act of

violence. And the FBI and our security

apparatus need need to ensure that that

famous people can walk the streets and

have some semblance. My old home I

bought a home in San Francisco

and I bought it for $720,000 and two

years later I wanted to move to New York

and I sold it for $950,000 and thought I

was a real estate genius. That

home ended up being next to the home

where ultimately it's no longer there

now. So, you don't need to look up the

address, but it ended up being the home

next to where Mark Zuckerberg lived in

San Francisco in the neighborhood you

live in.

>> My neighborhood.

>> And now my home

>> is where his security detail lived.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Because he had they basically started

blocking off the block. So, after that

election in the Netherlands, and I love

this, the prime minister stepped down

and then got on his bike and rode away.

I mean, I'm like, they they win. They

win.

He doesn't need the beast. He He doesn't

need it. He doesn't need his kids

escorted to school.

>> I have been unfortunately seeing the the

need for it. They do need it. It's

really crazy. But one of the things was

I was like, we got to deal with what's

happening here. You're going to have

crazy people attracted to you. It's

going to happen because it's inevitable.

And with just the enormous wealth, the

same thing. It's really creates real

problems. But you should not. Whoever

did these things are considering it. We

you are horrible people to that's how

you you deal with problems. There's lots

of ways to deal with problems and even

if you feel desperate you should seek

help.

>> The anger needs to be funneled towards

the ballot booth.

>> That's right.

>> And that is I need people who will keep

these people in check. I need people

that when Jeff Bezos or or Elon Musk

peace out to Florida and Texas that

there are elected representatives who

will figure out a way to tax the

earnings they accreted from the great

states of Washington and from

California. I need people who will

ensure that social media is gated. There

is no reason people under the age of 16.

But be clear folks, if you're waiting on

the better angels or these tech

executives to show up, don't hold your

breath. And then when they take

advantage of the system and it create

massive wealth,

>> that is not a cause for violence.

>> We do have to acknowledge there is an

huge I get yelled at for not stopping

Elon Musk before and I I I get like more

than yelled at like threatened. So I

don't know what to say. It's not the way

to handle these things. Anyway, uh

lastly, a quick grabag of other topics

I'd like to hit. Over a thousand

Hollywood heavyweights have released a

letter opposing Paramount's acquisition

of Warner Brothers Discovery, saying the

deal would harm the industry. Paramount

uh responded to the letter by saying,

"We hear and understand the concerns of

some in our creative community have

raised and respect the commitment to

protecting and expanding creativity.

This transaction brings together um

uniquely brings together complimentary

strengths to create a company that can

greenlight more projects, back bold

ideas, support talent across multiple

stages of their careers, and bring

stories to audiences of truly global

scale while strengthening competition by

ensuring multiple scale players in

investing and creative talent." Uh he

they also said they're going to they

have they continue their commitment to

increasing output to a minimum of 30

high-quality feature films with full

theatrical releases, continuing to

license content and brands. Um and he

they said we understand the concerns.

We're going to do what we say. Scott and

I do not believe them, but they they're

reestablishing their commitment to it.

Reaction, where's this going? Also,

Europe is looking like it's going to

possibly block part of it. Slow going.

They'll eventually get it through. What

is the greatest movie of all time?

Obi-Wan Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi feels a

disturbance in the forest cuz the planet

of Aldderon is killed by a space laser

and millions of people screamed. If this

deal goes through, you're going to hear

millions of people in the creative

community scream because this is going

to be the most destructive

uh force of human capital in the

creative community we've ever seen.

There is no way they can justify this

price if they don't implement the AI

that they believe will give them the

efficiencies they need to justify this

price. So, I've been saying this for 3

months. Why the where the are the

unions?

>> So, if

>> this should have gone the way they were

going to do it, which was spin off CNN

and spin off the studios and then maybe

do acquisitions of pieces of it that

made economic sense. This is

>> they're too late. Too

late.

>> This letter should have come out. They

should have said to Ellison and and also

the Gulf States and the people financing

this deal,

>> the day this goes through, you are not

going to get a single piece of content

made.

>> This is unworkable for us.

>> Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And next one. Elon

Musk gave $10 million to two major

Republican super PACs at the end of last

year according to campign finance

disclosure. Then the FDC investigated ad

firms that had steered clear of Twitter

as they are allowed to do and those firm

just settled to make it all go away. I

just this is rid he's been using the FCC

the FTC in all manner of ways including

Marco Rubio around the center for

countering digital hate in order to get

his beasts won that he can't win in

court. Uh and the FTC does this and

these firms finally just settled even

though it's within their right not to

not to advertise on a at a Nazi porn

bar. But quick thoughts.

>> This goes back to the same thing. That's

two things you need. You need structural

reform. He's allowed to do this. Until

we get rid of Citizens United,

billionaires are going to continue to

control more and more. Billionaires and

corporations are going to continue to to

leak or we're going to continue to leak

capital from labor and the middle class

and consumers to billionaires and

corporations because of their ability to

strategically weaponize government. 300

people now are responsible for a fifth

of all tax spending. And guess what?

They can deploy it wherever they need it

strategically. The best ROI in history.

I've said this personally. I give a

little bit of money to politicians. I'm

shocked. I don't mind that they're

What shocked me is what cheap

horses they are.

>> When I You don't expect the FTC and the

FCC.

>> I don't ask for anything. But my point

is,

>> but I'm saying usually those agencies

didn't do this and now they look this

has been going on for a while. These

guys are more brazen about it and quite

frankly more efficient about it. There

needs to be an absolute restriction.

Until Citizens United is overturned,

we're going to have more and more of

this. Also, until this this straight

corruption, it used to be more opaque.

But I'm I'm I've said if I had someone

in prison who I wanted out, I think for

between$1 and3 million through a third

party, I could get them out within 24

months.

>> Yeah. the head of the FTC and the head

of the FCC really are are are creatures

of these of Elon Musk essentially and

others. Um, and a federal judge has

dismissed President Trump's. He doesn't

always win $10 billion lawsuit against

the Wall Street Journal which claimed

the paper defamed Trump with a story

saying he had sent the birthday card to

Jeffrey Epstein. Uh, the courts keep

pushing back at Trump and all, you know,

in this case the journal fought as

opposed to CBS and settled or or other

other ABC CBS settled. So, uh, it looks

like the journal has the real victory

here. Um, you know, I think good thing.

I mean, what a stupid he does all these

stupid nuisance cases and loses them.

>> We've been really weak on government

corruption. The one the silver lining

here, the thing that's holding is first

amendment. It does feel like both Trump

appointees and appointees before Trump

are saying free free speech is paramount

and we're yeah, we're going to throw

this out. The problem is is enough suits

creates a chill. I was talking to a

producer of a of a very popular show and

they said, "We're checking everything

now, double, triple checking, and

occasionally when something's on the

margin, we don't print it cuz we're

we're freaked out." So, but it does

appear when they these things do go to

court, they are universally swatted

away.

>> Swatted away. Absolutely. Well, we'll

see where that goes. He doesn't have

much time. Trump does not have much

time. All right, Scott, one more quick

break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and

fails. Would you like to go first?

>> I'll go first. So, my win is Cara

Swisser Wants to Live Forever. I was

pleasantly surprised. I really shocked.

>> I I knew you would do a good job, but I

was really surprised, quite frankly, at

the production values. It feels

cinematic, the colors, the

cinematography.

>> It was It felt very rich, for lack of a

better word. It felt like an, you know

what I felt like? I thought that could

have easily been an original scripted

series on Apple TV. It felt very,

>> for lack of a better, just felt very

rich. So, congratulations. I I think

it's nice for you. I know you spent a

lot of time on it

>> and I really I've only seen the first

episode, but I really enjoyed it. Um,

>> and it airs Saturday night at 10:00.

When does it air?

>> 9. Saturday night at 9.

>> Unless JD Vance does

go every week.

>> That made me so happy.

>> I know it.

>> I'm like, "Oh my god." I turned it on. I

turned it on because I want I want you

to have good numbers. And And I turned

on both TVs. I don't know if they count

them twice. And then I see JD Vance. I'm

like, "This has to be." I'm like, "I'd

love to see Cara's face when she saw JD

Vance at her in her hour

>> slot." We laughed. You know, we had an

extra cop. We had a party. We were

having a party in DC. Tammy had it ran

it. Um, and we had a copy of the show,

so we were able to show it to people.

But first, we're like, "Oh, fuck." And

it just The thing is CNN had a picture

of a door. Did you see that? For an

hour. There was the door that JD Vance

was behind. And so it was just the door

>> where he came out and said, "We've got

nothing accomplished."

>> Yeah.

>> I know. Yeah.

>> Yeah. No. So that's my

>> Thank you, sweetie.

>> That's my win. My fail out. It's not

even a It's not even a fail. I have two

wins.

>> Look, the election in in Hungary is so

huge and so wonderful on a lot of

levels. But my win is Victor Orban. I I

I if a fascist who ruled for 16 years

can concede an election, so can we. So

can we. And think about what we have

done in this country. If you had a team,

a basketball team and a head coach and

they lost 68 to72 and then the head

coach refused to shake the hand, told

his team, "We won the game," told the

media we won the game, refused to show

up for the the medal ceremony or

whatever it was, would you decide to

make that guy the head of the league?

I if we can't have the peaceful transfer

of power, none of this other

matters. And Victor Orban, who I'm not a

fan of,

>> who I am not a fan of.

>> Yeah.

>> Understood. Understood. He said his

>> for now he's only 62. So, okay.

>> But he said, Orban said he congra he

called to congratulate Maguar. Is that

his name?

>> Maguar.

>> And he wrote Orban said the

responsibility and possibility of

governing was not given to us. I mean, a

simple line, a simple line, this guy

showed more fidelity to democracy

than not only our corrupt president, but

so many of the people who want to be a

judge are willing to do right now. So,

it's a strange win, but my win goes to

Victor Orban for conceding an election.

I am so thrilled for the Hungarian

people. It is an inspiration. the way

they have. And it also, quite frankly,

it bodess really well for us because we

are a lot more connected.

>> That's right. Than people believe.

>> You have to. Let's see. JD, when you

lose the presidency, you better act like

that. Anyway, uh I have a failed I

usually like when women say their peace,

but I thought two women this week

weren't so great. Melania Trump made a

rare speech to talk about

>> God, that was weird.

>> It had so much what the It

was what the hell? Why is she talking

about this? There m we thought there was

a story and then there just cuz she's

mad about it. She doesn't She's like I

was not a paid escort or sex trafficked,

you know, and it's like well like I

think she wants to make it clear she

isn't a prostitute. That's what or a se

sex

>> we all prostitutes at some point.

>> I know. I was like, "Well, you still you

like, okay, so you went through a

marriage broker kind of thing." Like,

she didn't do that, but you know, I

think she wants to doesn't want to. I

don't know what she was doing. I

thought, what in the actual is

happening here? And you know, they say

Trump didn't know, but there's such like

I was like, what is happening? And why

is Epstein back?

>> Like, oh, good. Let's talk about

Epstein. And then I think she like

crapped on those surviv the real

survivors who really did suffer because

you know just to get her little piece

out there and what a selfish uh person

she was. Well she is what am I talking

about? And then this strange profile of

Lawrence Sanchez in the New York Times

which Katie Kirk had the best reaction

is were you forced to do this assignment

to the writer Amy Chosk. I I didn't know

why she she was telling me how happy she

is which is great but I don't know what

it was there for. There was nothing to

hang it on. I guess the mech gala. I'm

not sure. But it was like so tonedeaf.

Like I'm really happy. And in our $230

million house in Florida, we talk do

gratitude to each other every morning.

Just more of this sort of performative

romance with Bezos is so icky. I just

find it I just didn't understand it.

>> Cara, do you remember that line from

broadcast news? It's it's one of the

greatest lines in movie history where

William Hurt says to Albert Brooks,

"What happens when your real life

exceeds your wildest dreams?" And Albert

Brooks turns and says, "Keep it to

yourself."

>> Keep it to yourself.

>> My dad,

>> I've been thinking, you know, I I love

this statement and I use it as a one of

the definitions of masculinity. Are you

optimizing for attention or service?

>> Mhm.

>> And Lawrence Sanchez, from everything

I've heard, is a really nice woman.

People who know her say wonderful things

about her. You have an amazing life.

Keep it to your self. Talking

about your amazing life in virtue

signaling. I It's like I have a buddy

who is so successful, such a good

friend, such a good citizen, and he's a

disaster when it comes to his

relationships. And I said to him, I

said, "Don't you have any really good

friends that can tell you what they

think of what you're doing? Who saves

you from yourself?"

>> Nobody here. She's got the money if she

and this is the same thing with Lauren.

It's like

>> don't you have any friends to say to

you, go girl, have an amazing life. Do

good things with your money.

>> Be take care of your parents. Take care

of your community. Give money away. You

don't need articles in the New York

Times talking about what a spiritual

wonderful person you are and how

wonderful your relationship is. There's

no way. It's just going to make you look

like an Like, don't that's my

question, Carrot. Don't these people

have friends? Especially as the ex-wife

of Jeff Bezos just gave $70 million to

Meals on Wheels and never said a word

about herself. I mean,

>> about the mugs they have or hunk or

>> honk.

>> She needs friends.

>> I Well, she has friends. She has the

wrong friends. Lauren, call us up. We'll

help you. We'll bring you back down to

earth. But I don't think she cares. I

think she she could do so much good and

instead she's I just don't know.

>> It's something I I struggle with. My dad

told me just be I I started to get some

success before he passed away. And the

last thing he said to me that really

stuck with me was he said, "The key to

happiness in America is to be rich and

anonymous." And he said to me, he said,

he said, "Son, I'm worried." Uh, he

goes, "I'm really happy that you've

achieved your the former. I'm worried

about the latter."

>> Oh, smart.

>> You don't appreciate the value of

anonymity.

>> Well, too bad. Too late. Um, but I if

you ever do an interview about us

cuddling and doing gratitude, I'll

kill you.

>> I gave her a mug.

>> Okay.

>> I gave her a mug that said that said you

look like Rachel Matt's accountant.

>> I gave you

>> Rachel Matto mechanic. That's That's

your fashion.

>> We'll see you next Tuesday. Mug.

>> Uh, my win on the other hand, we

adorable.

>> I know. We're adorable. Aren't

>> we adorbs?

>> Adorbs. Um, my win is another outspoken

woman hacks is final season. I saw the

first episode. So good. Jean Smart,

Hannah Ein Bender, the whole freaking

cast. It's about a woman who talks out

loud and is so wonderful. I just love

it. Love it. Love it. And I just I

recommend everybody watch this last

season. The the whole team there is

spectacular. There's not they and they

all share in the wonderfulness and I

have to say it's very sweet. It's about

a family. It's about Anyway, Jean Smart

is really a woman I'd like to have keep

talking. And by the way, her speech in

last season was so precient about

companies trying to quiet uh uh uh

performers and comedians and stuff like

that. So, I thought that was amazing.

So, please watch it. It's worth it. It's

on HBO Max. Um

>> my favorite one of my favorite lines.

They're going to name a street after

you. It'll probably be a dead end with

an abortion clinic on it.

>> Just beautiful writing. Um anyway, those

those are the kind of things I I think

you should pay attention because it'll

make you laugh out loud. We want to hear

from you. Send us your questions about

business, tech, or whatever's on your

mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot

to submit a question for the show or

call 85551 pivot. And elsewhere in the

Karen Scott universe. This week on on, I

talked uh more about my CNN series,

Caris Wisher Wants to Live forever on

the topic of longevity. I talked to a

panel of experts, including journalist

Katie Kirk. She talked about why people

seem more inclined to trust dubious

wellness claims than doctors. Obviously,

Katie was really well known for being

one of the first people to call

attention to colon cancer. She had a her

husband died of this and she had a

colonosby on on camera. Speaking of

power broadcast news back then, it was

really important to bringing down uh

cancer rates. Really amazing thing she

did and continues to do. Let's listen to

a clip. People want answers and honestly

they they often don't like the answers

that they get. You know, they want to

believe they you know, my joints hurt. I

want to believe that collagen is going

to make me less achy when I get up in

the morning. I want to believe that I'm

going to be more flexible with collagen,

you know, and so I think that that that

people, you know, are grasping for ways

to feel better and I think there is a

lot of suffering out there. Really smart

voice on all this. Okay, that's the

show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and

be sure to like and subscribe to our

YouTube channel. We'll be back on

Friday.