i can't stop now i can't i can't stop

doing this dr julie smith she's a

clinical psychologist with more than

three million followers how is she

dealing with stress pressure burnout

overload we're subjected to these kind

of ideals we're trying to do everything

perfectly and it's impossible those

things that that we end up doing

habitually are the things that work

instantly going to the fridge or

grabbing the wine or whatever it is and

actually the things that tend to work in

the long term are hardest in the moment

like sitting with it and feeling it and

using skills to get yourself through it

i just love that therapy it's great for

looking at the patterns and the cycles

that people tend to feel stuck in in

their relationship and it's incredible

how life-changing that can be for people

without further ado i'm stephen bartlett

and this is the diver ceo i hope

nobody's listening but if you are then

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month to watch the show in person dr

julie smith i had some time to read as

much as i could about your story and

with a lot of my guests there's often

tons of backstory online about their

personal lives their upbringing their

childhood that didn't seem to be the

case with you and i think one of the

things that from getting further and

further down the road with your story i

thought was really wonderful was

typically when people are successful and

they reach the levels of success that

you have in their disciplines

we we tend to want to point to some kind

of anomalous childhood where something

traumatic or um really significant

happened that shaped them and made them

obsessive or

overly dedicated or passionate was that

the case for you what was your childhood

like tell me yeah so uh

no there are there's no um sort of major

trauma that that triggered my kind of

mission to do any of this or even you

know had a few questions recently about

you know why i was even interested in

psychology and and actually i've always

been fascinated by people by humans and

i read a lot as a child but actually

everything i read

was about normal people in normal life

situations and sort of development of

how people become who they who they are

and um that's always fascinated me and

and actually i i started studying

psychology because i found it really

interesting you know just um there was a

new a-level available at my school my

college and so i thought well that

sounds okay that sounds great let's try

it and

i was just fascinated by it and so i

kind of went with that and

went to university because everybody

else was going and it seemed like that

was what you do now and

um

so psychology felt like you know an

interesting thing to do i had no idea

really what jobs could be at the end of

it i just kept following my interests

all the way along and and actually when

people ask me advice about

your careers and finding your passion

and all those things

that's the only advice i give people

really is you know

follow your interest do the thing that

that excites you or that inspires you

and you don't have to have this you know

epiphany moment that transforms your

life and makes you passionate about

doing what it is you're doing

um if you follow interest you're much

more likely to end up somewhere

um in in a job that that you love

having done this podcast for quite some

time now it's almost a bit of a

psychological i don't know

um

it's it's almost a bit of a

psychological journey with each guest

but sometimes it also feels like therapy

and i'm starting to learn more and more

about humans generally the more and more

of them that i get to speak to

especially because i'm i tend to be

speaking to people that are considered

to be anomalies

in your experience having

understood the nature of the human mind

and how we think and how trauma and all

of these things in mood and decision

making are all intertwined together what

have you learned just more broadly and

generally about the nature of human

beings and how

and how we come to be the way that we

are i know that's a big question but

it's one of the ones that i i actually

i'll tell you what i've learned okay

because then maybe that'll give you a

bit of an indication as to what i'm what

i'm referring to here one of the things

i thought before i started doing this

podcast and speaking to people a lot was

i thought we were all just so

fundamentally different

and i thought that um

my job would be to find out all the ways

that all these successful people are

different but i think over time i've

actually learned the opposite like

fundamentally humans are quite

predictable

in terms of how if you poke it like this

typically

a like x y or z will happen

yeah i think there is a sense of

predictability isn't there and and

and certainly

you would go with that in terms of the

sort of work that i do and working in

therapy there are certain patterns that

that can be predicted and that's where

you know your models of therapy develop

because you can predict that if certain

things are happening then it might

develop into this pattern and but

actually

while there is predictability

people will always surprise you as well

so you know even as i work

with people one-to-one in therapy

no two people are ever the same and

and you can never assume anything um

because

you know everybody has that

unique story and the new unique set of

experiences that they've been through

and their unique set of coping

strategies and how they'll then get

through that so

um i think predictability to a degree

but never assume

anything because people yeah people will

surprise you

and how did uh a clinical therapist like

yourself you know what question i'm

gonna ask you to find their way onto

tick tock you've got millions and

millions and millions of followers on

there yeah it's not i mean we were

saying before we started recording tick

tock is typically a place that you

assume 16 year old kids to be dancing

you don't assume clinical psychologists

to be giving mental health advice

yeah absolutely and that's where you

know you talk about anomalies and stuff

i guess i have um

felt like i've been sort of swimming

against the tide in my

um

in my chosen career and the area that i

work in in that it's usually a very

private

um

quiet kind of career choice you're

working with individuals it's

confidential you work with one person at

a time and

and in that sort of area of work

actually very few people

are even on social media um because you

have to protect your your own privacy

and confidentiality agreements and that

kind of thing so um

to even

put stuff on social media felt

quite scary for me because you know your

thought is what my peers going to think

is this you know what's this going to

cause for me

but every time that i had someone else

come in for therapy who

found the educational aspect of it so

helpful

i would i would go home and and say to

my husband why do people have to pay to

come and see people like me to find out

that bit of information about how their

mind works so they can deal with their

anxiety better or so that they can um

you know function in their relationship

better you know there's some there's a

set of kind of knowledge there and

skills

that are taught to people in therapy but

they're not therapy skills their life

skills and people can use them every day

i use them every day to help me get

through everything life throws at me

and

and i just felt that it was unfair that

that knowledge should be kept and hidden

away in the therapy room

so

um

you know my husband being the person he

has said well go on then do it you know

make it available and put something on

youtube or something like that and so we

did we kind of

half-heartedly made a really rubbish

youtube video

and um

and then at that same time he discovered

tik tok so he found the yet someone

recommended it to him he found it it was

full of kind of

fun dancing loads of really cool comedy

and we were sort of scrolling through it

laughing instantly just you know falling

down that rabbit hole of scrolling

and he said well you know go on

uh make something like for 60 seconds

see what information you can get into it

i said well then no you can't you can't

cut it down to that you know small

amount of time it'll be impossible

um and i'll probably get trolled out of

there because no one is talking about

that kind of stuff there were young

people expressing their distress on

there and talking about their mental

health from a personal perspective but i

couldn't find anyone who was kind of

sharing education around it so

um reluctantly you know got persuaded

and had to go and almost instantly um

the response was just overwhelming

people were

messaging saying they were checking in

every day to see what the next video was

or you know and

there's this real misconception as well

that that all my followers on there must

be this young group of people and you

know a lot of the messages i get from

parents and even grandparents who are

saying

oh this concept you explained was really

really useful i'm working through it

with my daughter or my grandson and it's

really helping thanks so much you know

where's the next one coming from so

i kind of felt like when we started it

was going to be this one-off thing like

okay oh you know i should you know

practice what i preach and have a go and

i assumed that we would kind of delete

the delete the account pretend it never

happened

um

two years later here we are kind of

three and a half million of us later

so yeah i mean it there was no kind of

set game plan for it but it just felt

like the right thing to do it um to kind

of put that information out there and

see if people were interested in it um

and it turns out people were quite

hungry for that kind of information you

know people wanted not only to talk

about mental health but they wanted some

evidence-based

sort of quality tips and knowledge that

that they knew were coming from a

i guess a good place

a couple of questions there then so the

first one is are you still seeing

patients one-on-one

yeah so i still have a few i had to stop

taking on anyone else new because i was

sort of bombarded with requests

and you know writing the book and

everything has taken up a huge amount of

my time so i've kept that really limited

um

but uh yeah i kind of still i still want

to keep that going i'm just

i'm in the process of trying to work out

how to manage that around

doing such public things so yeah that's

going to be a real transformation for me

because that's one of the things i've

i've always sort of contended with when

people have asked me if i'd do like

one-on-one coaching and stuff my d my

kind of default mindset is well if i

spend an hour i'd rather make a video

that i think can reach millions of

people than sit with one person on their

own yeah so i was wondering what your

relationship was with that one-on-one

stuff yeah i mean in some ways i do miss

some of the one-to-one stuff that i do

or did do and

and so that's why i've kind of held on

to some of it

um because you just cannot be being

one-on-one with someone in a room and

developing that

depth of relationship with someone

where that therapy room becomes their

sanctuary and you know

that's an incredible privilege that kind

of work and i love it

but there is that there is that sense of

okay i could sit in this room and

you know work with one person at a time

or i could make a video and share this

idea with potentially a couple of

million people

which you know has become

a real passion and that i i recognize

that it just didn't interest me the

numbers and the

you know kind of business side of it

just didn't really figure for me it was

genuinely just

the feedback the messages and the emails

you know i was going through them and

and thought was

i can't stop now i can't i can't stop

doing this if people are checking in

every day to see what the next video is

or or asking for specific topics because

they're genuinely struggling with

something

um

if i can help in some small way

then i really should

so

in terms of that feedback that you're

getting from social media

i've come to learn that it's not all

great as in i'm not saying the feedback

isn't all great but the general like

stress and pressure and expectation and

constant constant feedback can be

detrimental in many ways as well

talk to me about your relationship with

having millions and millions of people

that can message you at any time letting

you know whatever they're thinking and

how you process that yeah you know it's

been really tough for me actually

because i i'm naturally

a very

people following probably wouldn't

believe this i bounce around in my

videos like anything but um

i'm actually very introverted shy person

you know my ideal day is kind of

at home alone with a book probably and

so you know

the idea of of being public

and and being seen by people was not a

comfortable one it's something that i

kind of

endured for the cause if you sort of

mean for the idea of oh this could help

someone who's in need um

so

that's something i've had to work

through and and do a lot of kind of

practicing what i preach you know being

uncomfortable for the sake of something

that i value or that i believe in um

and

and yeah i mean i did a video on the

mental filter this kind of thought bias

that we all have

um and use the example of you know with

the kind of comments and and feedback

and stuff like that that you can have a

hundred

positive comments and you will scroll

through them to find the one that's not

positive even if it's neutral you know

or go off a bit negative um

because

you're built to do that you're built to

look for any signs that this is not okay

or that it's all going to collapse and

everyone's going to hate you and

and so

actually doing the whole thing has

has made me practice what i preach

because i have to because it's not an

easy situation to be in is that you're

vulnerable when you're putting yourself

online or you know as much as as i do

when you're putting yourself out there

um

it's a vulnerable place to be and a lot

of people look on and think it's easy

and um

and it's it's really not no i have a

newfound respect for everyone who kind

of

you know is brave enough to do that

what you were describing there that

scrolling through comments looking for

the bad one is something i think we can

all relate to because i will get 99.9

like great comments and then it'll be as

you say the one that's either that's

critical or that feels personal it's if

someone's like criticizing something

that i've like done i don't really care

it's when it's when they are criticizing

who i am i think i find it hardest and

so i wanted to understand why that was

and i started doing some reading and

some writing about this topic and

understanding the nature

if we go back in our like in our history

as humans of rejection and what that

used to mean when i was a human the idea

of being like just like kicked out of my

tribe yeah and the threat that that

would put me under if i was removed from

my tribe in this idea of rejection and

really like a lot of rejection this is

kind of what i came to came to the

conclusion of

when someone says something like that

it's almost like for me it feels like

a a threat of rejection a threat of

being expelled from the from the you

know from the tribe or whatever

um obviously not

obviously that is not the truth but deep

within me somewhere that desire to fit

in and be accepted by the tribe is still

there so having

millions of people being able to give me

feedback and some of them

seemingly rejecting me from the tribe or

saying that i don't feel or whatever is

difficult is that like that's a lot of

words but does that make any sense yeah

because the feeling comes before the

rational thoughts about it so you know

your your body has that reaction

before you're able to consider that you

know this isn't your um

your only community or this isn't your

family or people that are sort of you're

dependent on and that kind of thing so i

think the feeling will always be there

and it's always

difficult isn't it but then you can

override that with what comes next so

it's all it's not about never having

that feeling and and i hate it when

people kind of say online you know just

to stop caring what everybody thinks and

that is impossible because you're built

to care what people think of you and

and you probably wouldn't function in a

society that well if you didn't care

what anybody thought of you

it's about how you then manage it so

when those thoughts come along

about you know negative comment it's

what do you do next with what comes up

so yeah it's really about how you kind

of respond to

to the thoughts that come up after and

is it is it

in those moments of rejection

is it really like the story we tell

ourselves about what that rejection

means to us i'm thinking now more

broadly about romantic rejection my you

know i'm dating someone she says you're

dumped

like the harm surely isn't in the

separation surely for me it's always

felt like oh well i got to the point

where i realized that it was more

steve's subconscious brain is telling

himself he's a scumbag

and not beautiful and not smart because

of this rejection is that really where

the harm is done like that

self-inflicted self-story yeah so i mean

rejection is difficult for everybody

isn't it but but certainly if if

rejection taps into

what we call a kind of core belief so if

someone grew up with

a core belief around being unlovable for

example because maybe their parents were

inconsistent in their care for example

so they

you know and you don't think about these

beliefs consciously all the time you

know they're not at the forefront of of

your thought processes

but they will influence how you feel and

they'll influence how you behave and the

choices that you make

so what happens is when we have a core

belief that is a sort of damaging one or

detrimental one we develop

um sort of rules for living around that

that help us to keep it at bay so it

might be you know if i can just be the

perfect um business owner and the

perfect boyfriend and the perfect dad

then no one will reject me and and

everything will be okay and so you set

yourself these these rules for living

that if at some point inevitably you

break or there's signs that you're not

gonna be able to keep up with them

and what that does is when there's signs

that you're not gonna keep up with those

rules for living

you then it kind of triggers that core

belief to come to the forefront and

that's when you get that rush of kind of

psychological distress because it's a

distressing thing to believe about

yourself

and so that's when it can cause people

real problems when

when that sort of damaging core belief

is being triggered on a regular basis

for example maybe because it's a

turbulent relationship or whatever the

situation is

um

and that's when you can work not only on

the present stuff but on the core

beliefs and

and looking at

how those are playing out in

relationships and how do you get to the

heart of understanding what your core

beliefs are because i went through life

and i think i got to about 24 years old

without being in a relationship

and

when i asked myself what my core beliefs

were as it relates to relationships i

realized that they were heavily shaped

by watching my parents like toxic

relationship and this belief that

relationships were prison i because my i

thought my dad was in prison for my

entire childhood that's what i thought i

thought he was trapped in prison because

he was in a relationship with my with my

mother because they were very um

argumentative shall we say so

it wasn't until i was 24 and i think

because of journaling and writing and

really this podcast that i was able to

realize that i even thought that and i

was having this like avoidant behavioral

pattern where the minute i would pursue

someone romantically and the minute they

would accept my advances i would run for

the hills and try and dissuade them out

of being in a relationship with me and i

had no idea that core belief was in the

back of my control center of my mind

yeah absolutely and there's there's a

really fascinating therapy called cat

therapy actually so it's cognitive

analytic therapy

um just cat for sure but that really is

just a fascinating therapy where it

looks at the relationships that you have

when you're younger so when you're

growing up with with parents or siblings

or family and in those relationships you

learn how to behave in the world right

you learn about you know who i am

what to expect from other people um and

what to expect from the world at large

and then

you develop kind of survival strategies

or coping strategies in for example in

in a difficult relationship like that

uh you learn how to cope with that and

you have these kind of safety behaviors

and and as you grow up you're in a

different situation right you're not

um dependent on parents and stuff like

that

but those survival strategies all those

safety behaviors continue and they get

played out in your adult relationships

and and i just love that therapy it's

great for looking at

the patterns and the cycles that people

tend to feel stuck in in their

relationships and how that reflects

those early life experiences that are

essentially outdated coping strategies

but it's really difficult you know if

something's been a lifetime of habit you

can't just break that by telling

yourself to do that so it takes time and

it takes practice and and you literally

kind of map out the cycle

so that you you learn to

sort of acknowledge it in hindsight

first of all so you say okay last week

that happened and that happened and yeah

i went around the cycle

and then eventually you've done that

enough that you start to recognize it

when you're in it so as you're about to

do something you think hang on a minute

i know what this this is predictable i

know what i'm doing and in that moment

you then get this chance this is a

beauty of kind of awareness is you then

get this chance to

choose whether you go with it and

sometimes you will and you'll go around

the cycle again and sometimes

you'll do this other thing that you've

already worked out you need to do

and you break the cycle and and then you

get the benefits of that and and so it's

this really kind of long process of

sometimes going around the cycle again

and then sometimes breaking it and

finding this new life that you can

create in your relationships and stuff

like that so and it's incredible how

life-changing that can be for people if

someone can't

afford to go to cat therapy or whatever

is there is there a way at home or

within their own life that they can

sort of achieve the same outcome i think

um

i don't think it's a replacement for it

but i think definitely um

things like journaling and and

reflecting on experiences

and trying to look at patterns of

behavior so you know i always find that

i don't know when i'm with my boyfriend

we argue about this after i do this and

then you can literally sort of work it

out on paper just writing things down

what happened then what happened next

then what happened next how did i feel

how do i think they felt how did then i

feel when they said that and you're

really kind of just going through it

but keep doing that you know just doing

it once won't necessarily open up

everything

but when you keep doing it you can work

out patterns and the themes and and then

when you start to get you know

and sort of knowledge of that cycle

you can then you know begin to look at

what's different but sometimes it's

really difficult to just know how to

break the cycle sometimes that's a

really difficult part of therapy for

people is working out well where can you

break that cycle where where can you

exit and do something different and what

is that different thing because if you

knew right you would just do it so

um it's not easy and i think

you know maybe it's maybe that's another

book to write isn't it it's talking

about that relationship stuff because

it's so important to people

and and you know sometimes having

good friendships and and people that you

trust to talk through these things with

can help to give you that other

perspective you know kind of fact

checking some of your own because you

when you're in it it's so hard to see

the wood for the trees isn't it you're

kind of it's so much easier once you've

got stuff down on paper and you're kind

of looking at you've got that bird's eye

view and that's really the process of

therapy so if you can

um recreate any aspects of that with a

really trusted friend or loved one then

that could be helpful i don't think it's

a replacement for therapy and and the

model and the training but it's

certainly something

when you grow a big platform very

quickly there's a lot of other sort of i

guess psychological things to contend

with one of them is imposter syndrome

yeah one is one of them is the um

the the claim which will be leveled at

you i'm sure that you got lucky

how do you deal and contend with all of

these these thoughts um i'd say lucky's

pretty hard work isn't it you probably

know that

um

yeah and and you know there's an element

of that i think you know there was

probably a timing thing for me in the um

you know this huge pandemic started and

lots of people at home tapping into

new social media platforms they hadn't

before um

i think it's been uncomfortable all the

way along

i think

because it's been new and i've been

it's very public and that's way out of

my comfort zone you know i hadn't

um

i'd been in such a kind of small about i

live in a small town i had a small

you know one-man band private practice

it was just me and the whole reason for

that was that i could balance it around

my children and be the mum i want to be

it was all very kind of organic and

and suddenly this this thing started to

happen and become a bit of a roller

coaster

how does it feel to know that the more

successful you become at what you do

the more

public you're going to become to the

point where you might be in the daily

mail every week

and and you know what i've had quite a

few moments

uh you know i've not even really told

anyone this but i've had quite a few

moments along the way

and where i've really really questioned

do i even want this and

and i kind of told myself that as soon

as that all that feedback nice feedback

from genuine people who were saying

thank you so much you know what's next

i was kind of waiting for that to stop

so that i could stop

because it's really not been easy you

know i've been i've got three small

children and it's really really

important to me to be present for them

so i wanted to

keep it as balanced as i could which has

been nearly impossible so i was getting

up at like five in the morning to make

videos for tech talk in the dark before

my kids got up and stuff like that and

it's not been

you know it's not been an easy ride and

so it's kind of you know it's been hard

work and

i think i kept going because i felt like

it was temporary

i felt like at some point everyone's

just going to think yeah this is boring

now and and we'll stop

um and we would have helped a few people

and that would be great i mean maybe you

could advise me on that well no i mean

because i'm literally going through the

same thing which is this realization

that i've had more recently especially

with the success of the podcast and

joining dragon's den

that um

and then like there was there was a like

a really critical piece written about me

the other day and it's like totally

baseless but it says it basically

implies that my last company was like

guantanamo bay or something

and i was thinking this is this is going

to only continue to get more and more

and more and i'm going to have to

contend with more and more noise

as i become more successful at the thing

i love doing so what do you what do you

do do you stop and i do feel like a

sense of mission in cause with what i do

as well so do i stop that

which feels in some degree a little bit

selfish maybe and just focus on like

making my life very private i can go to

bali and buy a big mansion and just

chill yeah or do i

carry on doing what i'm doing and

realize that an unavoidable consequence

of it is i have to log online every day

or i have to you know open my emails

every day and just see so much noise

yeah which which is difficult because as

you say i want to have a relationship

and i noticed specifically this weekend

when i was like

speaking to lawyers and doing all this

stuff because of this article or

whatever

that i hadn't spoken to my girlfriend

and i'm like the thing that actually

matters the most to me the person that

provides me with the most like stability

and love is the thing as you said the

most important thing you say in your

book

is the thing i'm rejecting

in for the sake of noise that doesn't

like you know yeah and i think that's

where it almost goes against the grain

again doesn't it because we're kind of

taught to believe somehow there's this

undercurrent uh in our culture that that

you should strive for you know um riches

and and

fame and those things because they'll

somehow

make everything good and and actually

they make things harder as well so you

know while some people can really enjoy

that and they'll really

feel that that's where they want to be

there's there isn't this narrative where

people say it's okay not to because

those people are being quiet and going

off you know so and doing their own

thing so we don't hear that narrative of

it's okay not to be

extraordinary or it's okay not to stand

out from the crowd or it's okay to

um to want a quiet life or a private

life and

and you know i'm as much a victim of

that as as anyone else because you know

when i'm

not wanting certain sort of public

things

i question myself you know what am i

doing am i is this right or and it's

often

you know about your own values isn't it

and how you want to live and and i guess

all the time that you're questioning

that and reflecting on it

and making choices none of them have to

be permanent there's this idea that oh

if i don't take the opportunity it's all

over

probably not so you know you can kind of

play around with it can't you you could

probably

have you know six months off to go and

hide away somewhere on an island and you

could come back and

and experience public life again

so that you could almost you know work

out what is it that i like and want

about each one and how can i create a

balance for me but yeah we just taught

that we need to just strive for

extraordinary and and out of the crowd

and and

i think we have to question that

where are you at the moment on this

topic in terms of deciding

you know how much of

you know how much attention and this

audience you're building you want to

build versus the the privacy and the

family and the the things that so

clearly

much more intrinsically aligned with

your values

i think i'm i'm guessing there to a

sense in the sense that um

i need to stick to the reason that i

started in the first place i think i

have to keep that um

sense of integrity about you know i

started to be helpful and the thing i

loved doing you know the thing i loved

about writing the book

was researching and learning about

psychology and keeping up with the

research and that kind of stuff is the

stuff i love to do i love to learn about

people and then to share that knowledge

and so i guess as long as i'm doing that

and trying to

sort of protect my children at the same

time and and

and live a normal life then

then that'll be okay but all of these

things are a balance i don't think there

is a

clear set answer to any of these things

are there you know like you've had that

experience with the paper and and that's

made you kind of maybe step back a

minute and think wow how much do i want

this kind of thing and and it doesn't

have to you know make you do a 180 but

it can make you just acknowledge and

learn

i don't want to go too far in that

direction this is what i want and and i

feel like is that with me you're

constantly just edging from one sort of

position to another and you've got to

learn in them you've got to learn from

the experience it like on the job right

yes these are these are not lessons that

i could have learned from someone just

telling me yeah and in fact we've

probably both grown up in a world where

people have warned us about the things

we're experiencing and we didn't listen

we didn't understand until we felt it

right and if you try and convince some

ten-year-old kid you probably don't want

to be famous

you're right okay whatever

so you have to learn these things yeah

quick one for many years people have

been asking for a coffee flavored huel

and quite recently he'll release the

iced coffee caramel flavor of their um

ready-to-drink heels and i've just

become hooked on it over the last couple

of weeks i've been on a really

interesting journey with huel which i've

described and talked about a little bit

on this podcast i started with the berry

ready to drinks then i moved over to the

protein salted caramel because it's 100

calories and it gives you all of your

essential vitamins and minerals but also

gives you the 20 odd grams of protein

you need and now i'm balanced between

them both i drink mostly the banana

flavor ready to drink i've got really

into the iced coffee caramel

flavor of heels ready to drink and now

i'm drinking that as well as the protein

make sure you try the new ready to drink

flavors that the caramel flavor is

amazing the new banana flavor as well as

amazing and obviously as i said the iced

coffee caramel flavor has been a real

smash here so check it out let me know

what you think on social media i see all

of your tags and instagram posts and

tweets about you back to the podcast

one of the things you spoke about there

is um about values and much of your you

know much of what you talk about in your

book centers around understanding

what our real values are and our goals

and what we should be aiming for and how

to deal with certain situations your

brand new book why has nobody told me

this before which i love by the way

for many reasons i love it because you

don't have to read it all in one sitting

you can skip to the key

parts that are relevant to you

as

as is the case with all your content

it's super

inclusive so it doesn't feel like i mean

i've got psychology books on my

bookshelf over there that are you know i

have to like i have to do one page at a

time and like have a massage

to get through each paragraph because

it's difficult but this is super

inclusive whilst also being incredibly

um important in its subject matter um

so values and goals what is the

difference what is the value

sure so

um the way i would talk about sort of

values and goals in therapy is really

around

a goal is something that you

once you achieve it once you get there

it's done so you know your goal might be

to get through your exams okay exams are

over you passed done

a value

doesn't finish or end it's it's a

pathway if you imagine your life as a

journey for example it's a path that

extends the whole of your life

and it's something that you choose to

always stay close to when you can and i

think you know life will always take you

in different directions so sometimes

life will pull you away from a

particular value

but it's really about always evaluating

and knowing where that path is so that

you can pull back in that direction so

for example when your you know your

career starts to take over because it's

so busy and then you think oh i haven't

spoken to my girlfriend all week that's

you going

that passed too far away now i'm pulling

back i need to head back in this

direction because this is important to

me and and so it's a kind of you know

winding path where you you you're you're

sometimes you're pulling away from it

and sometimes you're going back towards

it um and something that i included in

the book was these sort of little values

check-ins that i would do

and and we do in therapy where we look

at okay just look at the different areas

of your life it doesn't have to be

rocket science doesn't have to be really

kind of

airy fairy it's looking at okay what's

important in your life you might have

family intimate relationships health

creativity

you know lifelong learning career

contribution those kind of things and

then you could literally kind of split

it up into boxes and put in each box

words

not about it's what's really crucial is

it's not what happens to you it's not

what you want to happen to you it's how

you want to respond to things how you

want to be in that area of your life

what kind of person you want to be so

let's say you were looking at your you

know romantic relationships

what kind of boyfriend do i actually

want to be you know what what kind of

partner do i want to be what do i want

to represent to that person and how do i

want to

come at difficulties how do i want to

sort of respond to problems that we face

and and you know that kind of thing so

it's all looking at

the attitude that you bring to that

situation in your life or that area of

your life

and you might come up with words that

that then kind of resonate or you know

maybe

i don't know and maybe in your work life

maybe enthusiasm is a word that you just

hold close to you and that becomes one

of your values

and so

um you can then

and sort of exercises in the book

because you can almost rate okay how

important is it to me

to be enthusiastic in my work maybe it's

ten out of ten that's really really

important to me

and on that same scale then how much do

i feel like i'm living in line with that

this week or today

um two out of ten i'm pretty tired i

can't even bother today this job's

really boring today or whatever

and then so when you what you've done

those you looked you've opened up a

discrepancy between okay this is really

important to you but you're not living

in line with there

why what's going on not not in a way

that you can then be really

self-critical

but as a tool to say

um yeah my girlfriend's really important

to me i haven't seen her for four weeks

why what's stopping me from jumping on a

plane right now okay let's do that and

then you know when you start to do those

things and and you're coming back

towards your value

the the sort of rating for how much

you're living in line with it would go

up and so doing that kind of exercise is

really just a long long-winded way of

saying you can

look at what's important to you you can

just do a really quick measure up of how

much am i living in line with it and

what areas of my life do i need to pay

attention to because i'm not living in

line with it so it can be kind of quite

simple and a fairly quick exercise

really i am i was actually watching a

video last night and uh

there was a guy on youtube i don't know

how i managed to stumble across it the

video had like 2 000 views this is not

anybody anybody would know but he was

sat in his car and i found it really

fascinating because

i don't know whether i should say this

or not but um i found it fascinating

because he exhibited certain like

narcissistic delusions of grandeur in

talking about what he wanted to become

and what he wanted from his life

and um it got me thinking that

it's quite difficult to understand

whether something you say or write down

or aiming for is a value or if it's just

based on like an inherent deep childhood

born in security because if you'd asked

me at 18 what my values were i would

have said a million pounds a lamborghini

like i would have i would have

defaulted to these things because those

were the things that would have like i

know scratched my

like

insecurities right yeah but as i've as i

attain those things and had more chance

to reflect on what actually makes me

feel good and fulfilled and complete i

would have said family connection you

know

health two very different things right

one's cause-based one is just an

insecurity so how do we know the

difference and and you don't right

because you know

and it's always a horrible answer isn't

it but you you know maybe you had that

aspiration when you were younger

and and you went with it because it's

all you knew at the time

and then you learnt some

you became more wise and your values

shifted slightly and and that's the

thing that's why i talk about doing sort

of quite regular values check-ins

because depending on your life

you know stage and what you're doing

your circumstances your values will

change you know my values transformed

when i had children

and

um you know probably sort of flipped

them upside down really and

and that's okay

it was i could never have known that

that would be i couldn't have

prioritized my children before they were

there anyway you know and um and for

example you might not have been able to

know that you would feel differently now

back then at that age you didn't have

the capacity to do that you hadn't had

the life experience so it's okay you

know there isn't this sense of there is

this right path and if you get on it at

17 you'll be all right you know the

whole process is a learning process so

it's okay to change direction it's okay

to discover

this is not where i want to be

but i've learned something here we go

let's change direction let's go in this

direction and now i've got the knowledge

of where i don't want to be

speaking of changing direction then a

lot of what's written about how we

change direction is you've got to make

this like big grand decision in your

life and then today you've got to go in

that direction as if it was like a 90

degree turn and this can be quite

terrifying for a lot of people because

it's not easy to do you talk about this

in the book you talk about habits and

things like that and how we make change

in our life what have you learned in

your you know your experience as a

clinical psychologist about how people

do actually make

meaningful change in direction in their

life

um i think something i've learned is

that

big meaningful change is not made

drastically and quickly you know

sustainable change is made carefully

and

there's this process of it's not just

action there is a lot of kind of

reflection

and

then there's a bit of action then

there's a bit more reflection of like we

tried that how was it

you know do we need to change direction

you know we keep moving so it's a kind

of

bit by bit by bit

but we greatly underestimate how

powerful and sustainable that can be

when we do it bit by bit and

and you know develop habits for example

and constantly re-evaluate and check in

on which direction we want to go in

um so i think something that i've

learned and certainly actually

in my nhs work for example this the type

of work that i was doing

um

it took time

you know if someone's really poorly and

and there's a lot to work through

that takes a long time and that's okay

that's kind of how we work it takes time

to heal and things like that so

um i think i learned to sort of

acknowledge that not everything has to

be done yesterday

um you also talk a lot about in your

book about how we can turn

bad days into not so bad days i guess um

and this relationship which i find

really fascinating between the decisions

we make our moods and our our like

actions and behavior and how they're all

like fundamentally linked and i was i

was thinking um i remember

when i was writing my book

having a particular moment where i was

in like a bad i was in like not a good

mood and i was trying to understand

what how to kind of hijack that to get

back to a good mood do i go for a run do

i just focus on my actions do i have to

think my way out of my bad mood what

would you say to all of that i think

thinking your way of a bad mood

is is difficult

and and often takes quite a bit of

practice around using specific skills

and stuff like that um sometimes the

quickest way to impact on your mind is

through your body so things like

exercise

music

um using your voice like singing and

stuff like that things like that

can can create quite big shifts in the

moment but also human connection so for

example you know when you if you've been

um

you know kind of pent up intense and

then or you felt unsafe and then someone

hugs you and you burst into tears and

it's that kind of shift of

of emotion and so you know things like

human connection movement music

you can utilize those to good effect you

know they if they

different people are different and so

you know one thing will work for one

person and something different work for

someone else you know i don't know my

husband likes to listen to kind of

really like old-school new york hip-hop

and stuff and that puts him in a great

mood it puts me in a terrible mood i

hate it so is it kind of you know that

everyone has a different um experience

of things like music or exercise

but if you can understand your own

experience what works for you

then definitely then utilize those to

create even small shifts in the moment

because a small shift can just change

direction and then other things can help

to kind of move it forward

what about sleep

how important is sleep in in terms of

our mood and mindset oh so important so

important and

you know that's kind of a battle i've

been going on because because you know

with this kind of work and the demands

of of you know creating content um

alongside having three small children

it's it hasn't been unusual for me to

kind of be up in the night with with

children and then be getting up at five

to make videos before i take them to

school and like you know just

it's not sustainable that kind of

lifestyle and but i notice

if i've not had enough sleep um for you

know a few days

it will impact on how i feel and it'll

impact on my performance and how

effective i am at work and what i'm

doing um and so you know

you have it's something you just have to

take seriously um

i think and something that i don't know

in our culture there's this kind of

shift towards

what's the saying like you you sleep

when you die and all that rubbish you

know that kind of well you will die

sooner if you don't sleep so you know

let's weigh this up so it's one of those

things it feels like when there's

more to be done than can be done

um it's so tempting all the time to

to ditch on that bit of extra sleep that

that you know would be good for you

um but it's yeah i think it's something

that we all have to just always remind

ourselves you gotta you gotta come back

to it and you've got to

you've got to give your body what it

needs do you feel like you've got that

balance now

i think it's always i think it's always

a tight rape isn't it you know like you

something will happen and and there'll

be a late night or an early morning and

that shifts again and there's no

recovery because you know children are

waking up early and stuff

i think while i've got a balance i hate

the idea that i might perpetuate this

notion that i've got it right and that

you know just do what i do because i've

got this perfect life and it's

absolutely not that way and something

that i think is detrimental you know in

kind of social media and things like

that that can can really catch people

out is the idea that you look at someone

online and you assume

that they have it all sorted and that

they don't have problems and they don't

struggle with normal human stuff that we

all struggle with

and and so i've tried to sort of

keep that honesty all the way along but

yeah these you know i mean these are

great tools and they really really help

but it doesn't stop life throwing stuff

at you

it doesn't make you invincible and i say

say that in the introduction this isn't

the key to a problem-free life

it's an arsenal of tools that you can

use to face those problems with that

will ensure you can kind of get through

it

talking about all of that so you know

the success you've had and the impact

it's had on you know your life and

having to wake up sometimes that god

knows what time to film a tic toc video

um one of the things i read about in

psychology is this idea that our

motivation can start to diminish when

something becomes

extrinsically motivated so when some

when you're paid to do something your

motivation to do the task weirdly

diminishes even you know even if you

enjoyed it before being paid to do so so

have you felt that in your life that now

that tick tock and making videos has

become work

the motivation to do it

is is shifting at all it can do i think

there's the temptation for it to do that

isn't there when when things shift

um and that's why i think it's been so

important to me

um

to keep in mind i had i think if i

didn't have that initial reason for you

know i wanted to share this this really

good information that's usually locked

away in the therapy room

i probably it just wasn't

me so it wasn't it wasn't

enough of a pull you know i didn't have

any interest in being kind of public

person that kind of thing so it wouldn't

have been enough for me to work that

hard on it

and it's

yeah as long as i keep that

that thought or that value in my mind

about you know sharing knowledge that

can help people with their mental health

then

then that enables me to keep going

but has it shifted

um

what in terms of becoming less motivated

yeah

or feeling more and more like work

no i think there was a period where it

felt like just a grind of work when

um

not the writing i loved the writing

but then there was obviously this

pressure to keep

you know putting content out there and i

can't just disappear for six months and

um

and that pressure felt like but i think

that was a symptom of overload of just

okay

i've got to write a book i've got to be

a mom and it's a lockdown and we're

homeschooling and

i've got to get video on every day and

you know that that for me that's a sign

of overload and

that in turn influences your motivation

in the moment but i guess i'm aware that

motivation

is something i can't rely on anyway it's

a feeling and it comes and goes so some

days it will feel like a grind and other

days it will feel really exciting you

know coming to do this and meet you and

that you know that stuff's kind of

really

wonderful

and some days you know i'm i'm in my

therapy room on my own with the camera

going got to say something profound now

you know what

find something um so you know and i

think it's awareness of

every job has its ups and downs i can't

rely on feeling like it all the time i

have to remember why i started it and

the values behind it to keep me going

what have you so that term overload was

interesting because i've never really

heard of someone describing it like that

um typically people say things like

burnout or whatever else what is the um

what is i guess the cause and or the

cure for people that are feeling

overload because i guarantee you like 95

plus of people listening to this now

especially in the world we live in will

be feeling some sense of relative

subjective overload in their lives

including me yeah i think we're

subjected to these kind of ideals of

everything aren't we and you know um

for parents there's this kind of um all

these images about what it means to be

the ideal parent depending on what kind

of content you're consuming and then

there's these these ideas of the ideal

business person or the ideal author or

the ideal social media

you know whatever and

and because we're subjected to so many

of them

we we then just over extended we're

trying to do everything perfectly and

it's impossible and then we feel

terrible and we feel like we're failing

or we're at fault rather than

the culture that says

you can be anything you want to be

you know actually

it's okay to decide

this is what i want my life to look like

and that's okay

you know it's just it's okay for it to

be like that and and for people to have

goals that are smaller than others you

know it's um i think it's

it probably leads to a much more

psychologically healthy outcome

i kind of bring that that back to a

point that i mentioned earlier and i'm

probably just asking this for my own

interest but your

theoretically you're you're heading in

the direction of maybe having

20 30 40 million followers

yeah i don't know

um

and then the demands on your time are

going be people are gonna be offering

you your own tv show and they're gonna

be asking you to write seven books on a

seven year on a seven book deal and

everyone's gonna want you on loose women

and itv's good morning you know all of

these it's gonna be constant so

how do you

how are you going to navigate all of

that

um

i'll probably call you and say stephen

what we're going to do

advise me

um i don't i honestly don't know and and

that's the direction of travel you're

going in right you're producing more and

more content which is going to grow your

audience even more your books as smash

hit four times number one sunday time's

best seller you're going in that

direction yeah and i guess um in all

honesty my barometer is always

my family so my children and

i will only ever do

um as much as i can do while i'm being

the mum i want to be i think and i won't

always get that right and i haven't

along the way there have been times when

i thought no this is too much i need to

pull back and

um

and things like that so

i think yeah that's my kind of center

point really because that is

you know where my core values lie and

that's the most important role i have as

far as i'm concerned and so i guess i

will always use that as as the baseline

you know is this going to have a

detrimental effect on my family

or not um and what can i do within that

yeah and that's kind of a values filter

i guess yeah in many respects

these feelings we have these emotions we

have i've always contended with um and i

think society has a role to play in

telling us how to manage the emotions we

feel when we go through life you know on

one hand you have this

sentiment where it's like kind of just

shrug it off ignore it keep going

which doesn't seem to be possible with

like deep emotions actually seems to be

that you're just compartmentalizing it

in the background and it's going to

erode your brain from subconsciously and

the other one is that you know the other

narrative we hear is to when you feel

strong emotions to really like embrace

them and to like but that feels like it

can be a bit too consuming that i might

not get out of bed in the morning if i

really sit and wallow in my emotions so

what is the balance of embracing

emotions or kind of shrugging them off

and ignoring them yeah and actually it's

quite sort of complex work when um when

you look at sort of what happens in the

therapy room um you know there are

people who when they experience emotion

it's quite unsafe for them because the

coping structures that they've had

throughout life have been unsafe or

dangerous ones and so um you know we'll

never kind of advise people to just you

know open the floodgates and allow

everything in it's very sort of careful

and and

um there's a process of gearing people

up with the tools and i often talk to

people about this when when they're

thinking about going to something like a

trauma therapy right

so um while that involves

going over the trauma no decent

therapist would ever get you to do that

without first gearing you up with the

tools to be able to cope with the

emotion that comes up so um

for anyone who feels like they for

example kind of shut down emotionally

and sort of block it out

you want to open up gradually to things

and open up gradually to emotions that

feel maybe less dangerous or less um

sort of overwhelming in small ways

in supported ways as well so that you

you know you can manage it and it's not

going to completely um

be overbearing

so

but i guess on a kind of day-to-day

level

lots of people don't even recognize that

they're blocking they just recognize

um that

whenever they've done something at work

that's embarrassing and they feel awful

they just go home and crack open the

fridge and they're just looking for

anything or maybe it's go on netflix for

like six hours and block out the world

or gaming or

whatever it is

and and so often it's hidden in the

behavior people will say i'm fine with

emotion and but i spoke 50 a day and you

know it's a kind of

you know what

true what's the function of this and

that and the other and it's always about

looking at it with curiosity not

judgment but curiosity why am i doing

that what's the function of that what's

it doing for me and and often it'll be

some level of safety around something

that's uncomfortable but it's really key

that there's no judgment there because

it's something that we all do it's it's

human

and and that's because our brains are so

brilliant at

taking over for us and doing something

very quickly that we need to make things

better to make us comfortable to feel

comfortable in some way even if it's

some yeah

destructive medication or something um

on that you know on that point of

we have a behavioral response to some

stress or emotion we're feeling and

maybe not confronting i think i did that

a lot when people used to ask me how i

dealt with running this big global

business 700 employees around the world

when times got really tough i mean on

the worst days where there was no money

in the bank and payday was today those

kind of days

um i used to i used to i think i used to

say on interviews and stuff that i used

to come up with all this nonsense about

how i dealt with it and how i coped with

it but in hindsight one of the things i

came to learn was the only times i ever

got sick or my skin ever got bad were on

like

two days after that those really high

stress moments so on the surface i was

kind of shrugging off and playing it

cool but my body

as the famous book goes held the score

my body would tell me even if my

conscious mind wouldn't admit it my body

would tell me and then even more

recently i've noticed that in certain

situations where i'm pretending

everything is fine

i'll notice maybe my eating habits or my

other habits get a little bit more

extreme and out of control and i and i

always thought i was invincible i always

thought i was some tough guy and i think

people followed me well i don't know but

i think they kind of they saw me as that

as being this kind of like you know

mentally

perfect you know resilient character but

even i've noticed that in my behavior

and it's been so interesting to just pay

attention to it

it's sometimes difficult because

especially if you do

engage in these kind of coping

mechanisms shall we say a lot you might

find them harder to notice but for me i

don't so when i see any shift in my

behavior like i remember

going through a pattern where i was just

i was eating crap again and i thought

why am i doing oh yeah because of

that thing you've not addressed

that's playing on your mind every time

you wake up yeah and then my skin tells

me straight away i get some like

breakout on my skin

um

men are the worst at this i mean so they

say they're the worst at talking about

how they feel

because the stigmas and stuff yeah

certainly i mean about 75 of my

followers are female

but saying that of the of the

male followers that i have they're among

some of the most engaged and asked

questions and um you know come up with

new topics and and

respond really positively in comments

and things and

and so i think there is a shift in the

right direction and i think

i think social media has had a lot to do

with actually it's enabled people to

start having a conversation that they

wouldn't dream of having face-to-face

with people

um and certainly i recognized that in

when i was just working in my private

practice

i

i wanted to do it around the family so i

couldn't do it all so i kind of left the

nhs and i thought i would just work in

like school hours and i'll manage it

around that kind of thing

so

um i thought i would have to advertise

and i never did and that's because

well therapy is a really private thing

when you're really struggling

when it works and you get better

and then you're doing fine and it

finishes and you go off about your life

and then you come across someone who's

struggling and they go

that really helped me try that

and so actually all of my work was based

on word of mouth

and and i think that's

happening more and more that people once

they

struggle

work out a way to get through it and

then believe in the in the tools that

they learned whatever they were they're

willing to share that and and because

they don't want to see other people go

through the same thing and i think

that's a bit of the shift of that stigma

um

that that people are going oh yeah i

went through that or something similar

go and try that it really helps and if

people are sad at home and there's

something that they know they haven't

addressed that's playing on their mind

that they're thinking about a lot often

and trying to just kind of

compartmentalize and not

what would you say to those people like

because you know they might be seeing

the the behavioral symptoms of

not addressing that thing what would you

how do we how do we get it out of the

back room and

prevent it from causing us

behavioral self-harm well i guess you

know

some people will go to to therapy

because they'll have access to that

others won't even consider it or have

access to it for whatever reason

um

and i think whatever the situation

human contact and human connection

is is everything if you can find someone

that you trust to talk to

and even let's say worst case scenario

you don't have anyone you can trust to

talk to or you feel so awful about this

particular situation you can't bear to

talk to anyone

write it down

just use words use art whatever it is

try and get to grips with

what what could possibly be going on

here start reflecting on experiences

not with judgment but just looking at

what's happening what happens here

what happens before that what what leads

up to it that's a lot of what happens in

therapy actually is you know people come

in with a feeling oh felt this awful

thing

and then and then we'll look at okay

what led up to that let's go back a week

and let's work to it and you know what

made you vulnerable to that and then

equally what came after what did you do

did it make things worse did it help a

lot of those things that

that we end up doing habitually are the

things that work instantly and they're

addictive because they work instantly

right it's going to the fridge or

grabbing the wine or whatever it is that

they're addictive because they give us

instant relief but in the long term they

keep us stuck so they're the things that

then get us in that cycle of

the next time you have that feeling

you feel even more need for that that

safety behavior or that blocking

behavior because it worked so quickly

last time and and actually the things

that tend to work in the long term are

hardest in the moment like sitting with

it and feeling it and using skills to

get yourself through it so it's not an

easy ride

depressed

know

i you

the 30-second uh hack

the 30-second secret that's what this

title is going to be of this video it's

going to be the 30-second secret to get

yourself out of any bad situation and

everyone will click it and they'll

realize that there's a lot of new ones

um another thing that i get asked all

the time and i'm sure you get asked

about all the time and something you

wrote about in chapter 19 of your book

is this topic of confidence it seems to

be at the very heart and core of um a

lot of issues we do we we have in our

lives the lack of confidence

but also it seems to be the cause of a

lot of good things that happen to us if

we have confidence so

quite people always ask me when i do q

and a's and stuff they say how do you

build confidence and there was this

really lovely quote in your book that um

i really really resonated with that said

confidence cannot grow if we are never

willing to be without it so when people

ask you that question dr julie smith

what do you say how do you build your

confidence

yeah so i did a video on this recently

actually where we

i don't know what we were thinking but

we used kind of balloons with a tube

that went between the balloons and i had

this idea that um if one of those

balloons was confidence and the other

one was vulnerability if you're only

ever willing to be with your confidence

so if you're only ever willing to be in

the situations where you feel confident

then you're it can't grow it can't it

can't sort of grow beyond that let's say

um in the pandemic being at home feel

you know you're confident at home you

feel comfortable at home but being

outside you feel vulnerable and so it's

really hard to go to the supermarket and

it's really hard to go out to a bar with

friends now and if you're not willing to

be without that confident feeling that

you have when you're at home

then

your confidence can't grow it's not

going to grow sitting at home and that's

where in therapy we talk about you know

the most important stuff is the stuff

you do in between sessions in your real

life

um and so

for anyone you know i often say to

people

if there's something that that you

really want to master but it makes you

nervous do as much as you possibly can

in in manageable doses

because the thing that you do every day

will become your comfort zone so it will

gradually become easier you'll become

more confident at your ability to do it

but your the way that your brain works

is through repetition so the more you do

something the more your brain will

get better at automating it for you

you talk about that same sort of the

importance of repetition as it relates

to anxiety as well and i guess maybe

this is the answer to the question we

were asking at the start about how to

deal with all of this noise maybe it's

just more dealing doing more of it

yeah

because it's getting used to the

feedback and what it means and what it

says about us and

how to cope with it

yeah you kind of you build up coping

strategies for it over time don't you

the more you do it um it's probably a

mix of that and making

um clear choices

based on your values rather than your

feelings

about how much of it you want to have

how important is it to make