2,000 heart disease deaths a year in

Europe were due

to the noise that people live in Jesus

the world we live in now that is not how

humans are designed to live Michael

Easter bestselling author journalist

professor of Psychiatry he's on a

mission to save us from the comfort

crisis Crisis crisis is it really a

crisis as a species we evolve to do the

easiest most comfortable thing but we

eventually end up paying a price for it

people are burned out stressed out more

mental health problems and we're looking

for the next pleasure and the industry

really leans into this addiction for

example slot machines once they got rid

of handles and just put a spin button

people went from playing 400 games in an

hour to an average of 900 if you break

that down by minute that's more than we

blink and then we engineered movement

out of our lives with our new job

sitting in these chairs 8 hours a day

now 2% of people take the stairs when

there is also an escalator available and

now we have heart disease the number one

killer of humans globally this drive

that we have to do the most comfortable

thing is a problem as people experience

fewer and fewer Vier problems we don't

become more satisfied we simply start

searching for the next problem really

yes we become unhappier usage of the

word love Haled between 1965 and 2015

and negative words like hate increased

we need to realize that it's your

ancient brain working against you it's

not your fault but it is your problem I

want to take back control how do we

break out of this I call this concept

being a twcenter and if you apply this I

guarantee you will end up healthier and

learn what you're capable of the first

step is

quick one this is really really

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[Music]

deal Michael there's a quite obvious

through line throughout your work so I

wanted to ask you if you had to sort of

encapsulate and summarize the mission

that you're on with the work that you do

the books that you write how would you

arize that mission I think that in the

context of today and the world we live

in now you often have to embrace

short-term discomfort to get a long-term

benefit so I think the world is set up

in a way now where things are

easy things are more effortless and

while that is good overall that's a

result of progress I think by not having

moments that press back against us and

this could be everything from taking the

stairs to um being willing to have hard

conversations in your life all those

sorts of things we lose something about

being a human and lose um the things

that keep us healthy and and happy I I

would argue I argue in the comfort

crisis that the things that most impact

your day-to-day life today how you live

everything from Cars uh climate control

to the food system to on and on and on

they're all relatively new in the grand

scheme of time and space they're all new

within the last 100 years I mean here's

a great example

uh digital media the average person

today takes in 12 to 13 hours of digital

media a day the radio was invented maybe

100 years ago that is an insane shift in

how people spend their time and

attention every day and the Brain hasn't

got up no no so we you know a lot of my

work it looks at um looks takes an

anthropological lens really it looks at

how humans were shaped over time and how

we have these adaptations that used to

make sense in these environments where

um what we needed to survive was scarce

uh where the world was hard and

uncomfortable and life took effort and

those things kept us alive right uh but

when you put us in a world where we've

engineered the world to be kind of a lot

easier in a lot of ways where we have an

abundance of all these things that we're

sort of built to Crave everything from

food to stuff to information to even

status and influence we now have an

abundance of all those things and these

sort of ancient drives we have this

ancient Hardware it can backfire in

these new environments so that's called

an evolutionary mismatch what is the the

modern symptoms of that evolutionary

mismatch chronic diseases so for example

you know people didn't really get heart

disease until we started engineering uh

movement out of our lives with our new

jobs and um started eating more because

we had a massive supply of food thanks

to advances in agriculture um I think

there's mental health issues too people

are you know burned out um stressed out

our Collective lack of Fitness I think

too has led to a lot of health issues so

for example um in the past our ancestors

probably were about 14 times more

physically active than us 14 times it's

a crazy

number so when they do uh when

scientists do studies on Hunter gathers

today which are a way to get get to the

ideas of how humans used to live in the

past um groups will generally walk more

than 20,000 steps a day and that's just

an average day now today the average

American and I would assume probably the

average brid as well we're probably um

about in the same place walk anywhere

from you know 4,000 to 5,000 steps a day

that is just so little in the grand

scheme of time and space we had to be

active to to live and survive and um

this drive that we have to do the next

easiest most comfortable thing it often

backfires today I imagine in preparation

for your books you spend significant

amount of time studying hunter gatherer

communities and native tribes and things

like that I'm so fascinated by that so

fascinated because I think most of the

answers we're in search of in our modern

lives exist behind us instead of in

front of us if that makes sense what

have you learned about the differences

in how they lived versus how we live now

you talk there about movement and

activity is there any other sort of

really Central differences that

pertinent to health outcomes yeah I mean

well food is one of them right so as

part of this new book scarcity

brain when you uh when you look at the

diseases that kill humans modern humans

it's heart disease now the crazy thing

about heart disease is that people also

don't worry about it so when you look at

what people worry is going to kill them

it's uh cancer it's Terror attacks it's

you know the crazy Neighbor Next Door

with the gun it's all these whatever

things and heart disease is way down the

list but what actually kills people is

heart disease full stop like that is the

number one killer of humans globally

especially if you live in a developed

country so I have that in the back of my

mind and I come across this paper this

study and it found a tribe in Bolivia

with the healthiest Hearts ever recorded

by

science the reason they don't seem to

get uh heart disease as well as a lot of

other chronic diseases that we get and

that kill us for example they don't seem

to get Alzheimer's um tracks what they

eat and what they eat at some point in

the day which is fascinating is that it

is going to give the middle finger to

every single fat diet you've heard of

over the last 40 years so it's not

necessarily low fat it's not low carb

it's not vegan it's not paleo it's not

ex all these different diets you've

heard of right but the one commonality

that all their food has is that it has

just one ingredient so they're eating

things like foods like rice they're

eating potatoes they're eating red meat

from um Amazonian deer they're eating a

lot of fish they're eating nuts they're

eating fruits they're eating they even

eat sugar right like how many diets do

we have where they're like if you eat a

gram of sugar your kidneys are going to

explode and you're going to die on the

spot right of them and so for me the

takeaway was that um when you look at

what the average person in a developed

uh country eats it's a lot of very Ultra

processed foods so ultr processed foods

are basically that's a euphemism for

junk food it's what scientists use to

describe junk food you know and it's

stuff packed with all sorts of uh

ingredients and triggers that lead us to

overeat more or less so when you take a

food through a ton of processing right

like a Dorito you guys have those in the

UK yeah we have Doritos oh thank

God you concentrate the calories so one

the food

tastes way better than anything you'd

find in the jungle like when I was

living with these people I'm not going

to lie the food was not that delicious

it really wasn't so you you make the

food taste a lot better and you also

concentrate the calories the food

becomes a lot easier to eat you can eat

more faster so there's these interesting

experiments at the NIH where they will

lock people in a lab and they will give

them a

unprocessed diet and then for the next

period of time they will give them an

ultr processed diet a sort of junk food

diet now everything about these diets is

matched like the calories the the carbs

the protein the fat and they say you

know eat as much as you want till you're

full full and when people eat the foods

that have you know fewer ingredients the

unprocessed Foods they end up eating 500

fewer calories a day and they end up

losing weight so that's just one example

of how things have changed so in

scarcity brain in particular you know

I'm looking at

how everything we needed to survive in

the past was scarce and hard to find and

so it made sense to when you got the

opportunity to overdo those things

whether it be food whether it be GA

gathering possessions right tools

whether it be trying to gain status over

other people trying to gain influence

whether it was information and now we

have an abundance of all of those things

right we've got grocery stores packed

with thousands and thousands of foods on

all sorts of Corners uh information

think about the internet the average

person in one day today sees more

information than a person uh 700 years

ago would have seen them their entire

life Jesus entire life think of status

and influence right it used to be that

we would be in these uh tribes of people

that would have maybe 150 people Max and

it was very clear what your sort of rank

was right because we got a leader we got

some whatever but now you can blast out

stuff about yourself to millions of

people one time you talk in your work

about I think that was in the first book

The Comfort crisis about how kind of

sort of adjacent to that being in large

groups is has adverse consequences for

our health and happiness this number 150

people MH in an office space really made

me consider a couple of decisions I've

made what is the what is the basis for

that and what is the the key takeaway so

the number is called dunbar's number and

it's by this researcher uh Robin Dunbar

I hope I got his first name right the

theory is that groups of people um as we

evolved we probably didn't get over 150

people now because of this today when we

have groups of more than 150 people

things get complicated right because

once a group of people gets over 150 you

got to remember a lot more

interconnected relationships you got to

remember a lot more names you got to

remember a lot more faces you got to

remember all these things and oh by the

way now that we have this big group of

people we need to establish laws we need

to establish all these different things

so it gets rather complex and the

takeaway is that this seems to be a lot

of work and stress for for most people

and so living in environments where you

are sort of jam-packed in with fewer

people seems to make most people happier

most of the time so you can sort of

gauge happiness levels where people who

live in the most densely packed cities

tend to be on average uh most unhappy

compared to people who live out in rural

areas of course I'm not saying that

everyone that lives in a densely packed

city is unhappy of course I'm not I'm

just saying on average you compare those

two groups you're going to find that

people who live in uh countrysides and

they're less packed in with groups are

going to be

happier does noise matter noise of the

environment yeah was part of the Comfort

crisis The overarching Narrative of that

book is I spent uh

33 days in the Arctic and um the thing

that I really didn't expect to happen so

in that book I tell the story of my time

in the Arctic and as I experience these

different forms of discomfort that

humans would have experienced in the

past I sort of peel off and explain the

science behind them and other travels I

did about them so in the Arctic it was

unbelievably silent there's no one

around for hundreds of miles I mean one

day we're you know you're standing there

and um I hear

this and I'm

going the hell was that turns out it was

my wristatch it is so silent up there

that you're just standing and you just

pick up the of the second hand which

normally you would have to hold up right

um and so I got curious about

that and what was funny is that humans

have increased the loudness of the world

about fourfold so 100% yep fourfold

since um before we you know became this

species that overtook uh the planet is

the estimate and people tend to get

stressed out when when they're in lots

of noise all the time so if you think

about noise in the past um if you heard

a loud noise it was probably

danger it's a storm rolling in it's an

animal that thinks you would be a

delicious dinner and is letting out a

roar right so we tend to become stressed

when um we hear loud noises now in the

past those were likely infrequent and

today we kind of live in this lowgrade

loudness that seems to um be associated

with

stress and even disease which is

interesting yeah there's a uh there was

this interesting wo study where they

estimated that 2,000 heart attack deaths

a year or heart disease deaths a year in

Europe were due to how loud the the

noise that people live in and that's

simply because um loudness increases

stress and stress is a key factor for

heart

disease it makes me think about the way

we've kind of designed our professional

and personal environments you know like

open plan offices and I mean all my

offices around the world have always

been open plan in your first but Comfort

crisis I think it's chapter 13 where you

start to talk about how that is both bad

for people's anxiety depression and

productivity yeah well and it's funny

because um what I found fascinating

about the studies on that is most people

don't realize that being in a lot of

noise impacts their productivity um but

when you look at what they actually

produce people tend to produce more

better work when they're in more silent

environments

there was one study where one group

worked in a quiet office and one worked

in an open plan office the open plan

office was 50% louder the workers in the

open plan office so they didn't feel any

more stress but stress monitors found

that they were in fact more stressed and

less productive yeah chapter 13 of your

book I'm sorry that I just I was like my

team are going to hear this we've just

had we've just approved the designs for

for our new HQ in the middle of London

well let's uh you know call off the

build yeah Jesus take a look at the

blueprints after this and that's what

staggering anti- anxiety medication use

Rises a relative 28% for every 10 deel

increase in sound in neighborhood in

neighborhood experiences and people who

live nearer to loud roads are 24% more

likely to be depressed yeah it's uh it's

definitely surprising right because we

do live in a lot of noise and another

thing that was interesting while I was

reporting that section on um noise and

sound and how that's changed is that

most people today say that they feel at

first uncomfortable in silence totally

me yeah I think everyone's like that I

can't even sleep without something

playing right so this is a this was a

study in Australia and it was rather

informal but

um yeah people uh would you know take

some time to just be in complete silence

and they all wrote you know At first I

felt really uncomfortable through that

but um on the other side of that they

started to feel better and I think that

that's kind of um a framework for a lot

of things in life it's uncomfortable at

first but when you go through that you

come out of on the other side of it and

you feel like you've improved and you

probably have improved being alone and

being lonely you s as being two very

different things loneliness seems to

be awful for our healths and we're

getting increasingly more lonely decade

by decade but being alone is what's the

distinction between the two how do you

define the difference yeah so lonely to

me is I want to be with others but I

don't have anyone to be with right I

just don't have that resource in other

people being alone is different it's

choosing to take time to be with

yourself and see what you can learn from

that and I think too that there's real

there is some interesting research um on

people who just prefer to be alone they

just like Solitude and turns out that

they're just as happy as super social

people there's a little bit of

individual variation now of course these

people will have you know some people in

their life that they can count on I

think that that is absolutely important

but I do think we've shifted in the last

say 15 20 years where the message is

really you need a bunch of friends to be

happy you absolutely need to be as

social as possible and while I'm not

saying that don't be social that is not

my message at all I am saying that it's

also worth um taking time to be alone

sometimes and seeing what you can learn

from that because I think it does help

you better appreciate those social

moments like for me I never appreciate

my friends more when I've gone off on

some reporting trip into a strange Place

completely alone for a month or whatever

it might be and then come back and I'm

like oh man I really appreciate being

around these people and I don't take

that time for

granted being lonely increases your

chance of dying in the next seven years

by 26% being lonely can shorten your

life by 15 years staggering stats when

you think about the trajectory of travel

that Society is on with machines and

artificial intelligence and all of these

things um it's hard to find it's

understandable how it might be hard for

someone to find mind hope that the stats

are going to turn around and go the

other way as it relates to loneliness

are you concerned at all that the

invention of AI and the speed in which

we're seeing it proliferate is going to

lead to you know some people say sex

robots

and and all of these kinds of things I

mean I read an article the other day

where um a woman is a virtual boyfriend

to hundreds of men and they're paying

because they're using generative AI to

have like seemingly intimate

conversations with her

and the fact that there's demand for

that is a signal of not great things

yeah I think we need I think we

need I mean so then you ask like okay

well why are why are these people doing

that um I think part of it is because

having to go out and interact with

another human is that you don't know is

a little bit awkward and challenging at

first and so to me I mean a big message

of my work is that you have to do

challenging things in order to grow as a

human cuz I guarantee that your

relationship with an actual person is

going to be more rewarding in the Long

Haul than the you know the AI bot or

whatever whatever they call them but it

is hard to go out in public and I think

that we live in a world where you can

you can go okay I'm going to avoid the

hard thing because I can get this thing

that's easier even though it's not going

to be as good for me in the Long

Haul why you I always think when people

commit themselves to writing books

because books are painful processes I

mean it's nice when it's out but it's

not necessarily enjoyable when you're

having to condense your thoughts and put

it pen to paper but there is correlation

and there is a through line between

these two subject matters so it makes me

beg the question why did you of all the

things you could have taken an interest

in or become curious about why did

Michael have a Natural Curiosity towards

this subject matter yeah that's a great

question um I think a lot of it for me

is how I grew up um I grew up with a an

only child of a single parent who had to

travel a lot when I was in my 20s I also

got sober that was not an easy thing

right I was choosing this short-term

relief of alcohol at the expense of

long-term growth and meaning what was

the cost of that oh I mean you're just

an internal mess you know so my I was I

wasn't an interesting case but I I

wasn't the case that most people would

think of in the sense that my life was

totally fine on paper I had a job a

magazine everyone knew you know I had a

house I had a car that sort of thing but

uh internally I was just a total mess

and it's kind of like the walls were

cing in and I tried to quit drinking a

lot of times and finally it just

occurred to me um like this isn't going

to be easy and if you don't do this

you're probably going to die early by

the way and um I realized I had to just

rip off the Band-Aid and do the hard

thing and once I went through that

process my life improved Mo across the

board when you said that internally you

were a

mess how do I gain color on what that

means in reality so that people that are

listening who might be internally a mess

will have a bridge to be able to relate

to what you're saying there oh well so

addiction is really um consistently

choosing a short-term reward at the

expense of long-term growth I knew that

my drinking was causing um problems in

my life across the board I mean like you

know I had less money it was eating into

my bank account it was kind of it was

messing with some of my

relationships um I would never feel good

the 3 days after I would go out on a

bendor right I would just be like a a

mess and um yet I couldn't stop I mean

that's the key right as you go I know

this is screwing me up I know it and

then I tell myself you know what maybe

it'll be different this time like I'm

just G to have one or two drinks this

time and then you have one or two and

you go well if one or two is this good

what would like 10 more be like right

and something shifts in your head um so

it's choosing that short-term um relief

at the expense of long-term growth and

that is a tough cycle I mean I write

about it in scarcity brain about um

addiction and how we think about it

because I think that another thing

that's interesting about today is that

um you know when people hear the word

Addiction they automatically think drugs

they automatically think alcohol but

really if addiction is choosing the

short-term reward at the expense of

long-term growth it really falls on this

big spect

there's plenty of things we all do every

day that that fall into that but it's

just how bad is it hurting you to what

extent um and even the you know the dsm5

which is sort of like the Bible of

psychiatrists the one that they

use it basically puts Addiction on a

spectrum it's like a here's like 11

questions about addiction and if you say

yes to you know four of them then you

got a mild case if you say yes to six of

them you got a medium case and if you

say yes to seven or more you got a

extreme case and like when you read that

you could plug in a bunch of different

behaviors that people do all the time

and go oh I guess I am kind of like

mildly addicted to insert whatever app

you spend way too much time on and um I

think that getting out of that is

ultimately hard and ultimately I I also

see addiction as kind of a symptom of

some underlying thing so for me I think

the reason that I drank is because I had

an office job that I found a little bit

boring um it was rather sanitary

rule-based and as I mentioned before I'm

a person who I do well on Extreme

experiences right and when I would drink

alcohol would allow me to be sort of

wild and free in this world that's

become increasingly sanitary

increasingly rule-based whatever but

that's like not a good way to find that

there's a lot more productive ways to

find that and I can find that now by

applying it to a job that allows me to

go into extreme and interesting places

right and so I think that you know the

message for the average person is that

um once you figure out why you have an

issue in the first place and if you can

figure out okay well how do I apply it

to something that enhances my life that

can that can be a good life

hack I want to zoom in on a particular

moment there which we can all relate to

it's the moment you described where you

have an internal conversation about

having those first two drinks now we can

all relate to that in our own ways I

have internal conversations with myself

once in a while about having the carrot

cake and in my head

like it logically I know that this is

not a good long-term decision right it

could be you know binging on a website

or whatever when you know you've got

other important responsibilities and

priorities in your life that moment

where you have that internal

conversation with yourself it appears to

be the opportunity you have of making a

better longterm decision how on Earth

everyone listening to this will want to

make better long-term decisions how do

we win that battle which is seemingly

with

ourselves it yeah it is in a way with

our cells but it's also I think in a way

with this sort of ancient Hardware that

we have so in the I'll I'll answer this

this way and it might provide some

insight and um we can kind of go from

there so in this book um scarcity

brain there's this underlying question I

have that is you know everyone knows

that everything's fine in

moderation and yet we all suck at

moderation in some way or another in our

life right we all have a thing that

we're not great at moderating let's say

so I live in Las Vegas and I have this

underlying question and Las Vegas is a

fascinating town and um so I want to

know why slot machines work why are they

so good at grabbing

attention now long story short as this

leads me to uh this place on the edge of

town in Las Vegas and it's a brand new

fully working cuttingedge casino but

it's used entirely for research on human

behavior so it's a collaboration with

the gambling industry and a bunch of

different Tech companies so you go into

this place and I went in there and it is

just a it's a real Casino there's hotel

rooms there's like restaurants there's a

coffee bar there's all these different

things that the casino would have like

the slot machines like the poker tables

like the sports book like insert

whatever and while I'm there I end up

talking to a researcher who um designs

slot machines and slot machines work on

what I call the scarcity Loop it is a

three-part Behavior Loop and its three

parts are one opportunity two

unpredictable rewards and three quick

repeatability so one

opportunity you have an opportunity to

get something of value that's going to

enhance your life in the case of a slot

machine it's money right two

unpredictable rewards you know you'll

get that thing of value at some point

but you don't know when and you don't

know how valuable it's going to be so

with slot machines it's like you play

you could lose your money you could win

a couple dollars you could win hundreds

of thousands of dollars it's crazy and

then three quick repeatability you can

immediately repeat the Behavior now the

important part is that and why I'm

talking about this is because that

three-part Behavior Loop it is uh the

most powerful Behavior loop at getting

people to repeat behaviors and get

sucked in it's like the serial killer of

moderation okay and it's now in all

sorts of other Tech and institutions so

for example it's what makes social media

work it's what makes dating apps so

compelling it's being put in um

financial apps like Robin Hood um it's

being leveraged by different um gig work

companies right it explains the rise of

sports betting it's embedded in a lot of

these behaviors that we can't seem to

moderate so when I look at the things

that people aren't good at moderating

whether it's you know I check email way

too much or I check my stocks way too

much and this drives me nuts um it

usually fall it's usually behavior that

falls into those into that scarcity Loop

and so the book unpacks you know what it

is uh where it came from why we get

hooked on it in the first place and I

can explain that please and then where

it um pops up in Modern Life you want to

know where it came from yeah yeah yeah

okay so I had the same question so I

talked to the slot guy and now I'm like

okay I get that gambling and slot

machines are so

compelling I get that this thing is in a

lot of different places but why why in

the first place he just looks at me goes

I don't know like he just makes money

off it he doesn't care

so I end up calling a guy who's a

psychologist at the University of

Kentucky and this guy is an old school

behavioral psychologist like he got his

PhD in 1968 he's been doing research uh

ever since and he explained that it

likely evolv to help us find food in the

past so if you think of humans in the

past you basically had to find food

every day or else you're going to die

but you don't know where the food is and

you don't know how much you're going to

find so you go to point a no food point

B no food Point C ding ding ding jackpot

you find this massive elk that you end

up killing and it feeds you for weeks

right so that is the exact same

architecture as a slot machine you play

the game you don't get anything you play

the game you don't get anything you play

the game oh it's right there amazing and

you couldn't predict any of that right

and you've got to repeat that behavior

every day for life so we seem to be in

inherently attracted to behaviors that

fall into that Loop because if we

weren't in the past um we wouldn't have

had as much incentive to continue

searching for food and in turn survive

so we still have that sort of ancient

hardware and are we the only ones or is

the rest of the animal kingdom wide in

such a way because one would assume they

would be yeah they are so the the guy

that I spoke to at the University of

Kentucky he does research on

pigeons and pigeons will play a gambling

game that gets them less overall res

resources compared to a predictable game

that gets them more food so we can

basically turn pigeons into these sort

of degenerate gamblers and you see it in

rats you see it in um other primates

yeah so when the rewards unpredictable

for a pigeon they engage in the behavior

more Yep which would again matches up

with your theory that whenever there's

unpredictable Awards associated with an

action we are more engaged because it

falls into that prehistoric Cloud wall

exactly think about um starting a car

okay you start your car um it turns on

every time that's not that exciting

right like it's not going to capture

your attention let's say you turn it on

and it doesn't turn over so you try it

again it doesn't turn over you try it

again it doesn't turn over what are you

going to do you're just going to be like

okay well my car's not starting I'm

going to fix it now what happens if you

go to start your car and it doesn't turn

over but it kind of Putters it goes like

it's going to turn on and then it stops

then you do it again and then it doesn't

do that and so you're like okay well

what's going on so you do it again it

starts to sound like it's going to come

on it's like don't D D D D but then it

doesn't you're going to sit there

messing with that so long as that car is

giving you signs of life right there's

this unpredictability embedded into it

and that'll capture attention of yeah

any animal pretty much and I mean that's

what when I was thinking about I think

it's called like near Miss Theory or

something that you you talk about in

your book that's kind of what that is

when you see you're on like a slot

machine and you see like the Cherry go

nearly you nearly got it you didn't

quite get it but is that called near is

it near Miss Theory or something yeah

near miss so near misses are a term from

the casino industry and in slot machines

let's say you have five reels and you

know you need these bars to line up

these gold bars or whatever they we'll

use cherries that's a better example you

got four cherries line up and if this

fifth Cherry hits you're going to win a

bunch of money now what will usually

happen in slot machines is that fifth

wheel they will be programmed to have

that thing roll longer and longer and

longer so they extend that out cuz you

are sucked in you're like if this thing

lands I'm about to win a bunch of

money and then it

lands but it's not the

Cherry what tends up what ends up

happening is that this leads people to

repeat the behavior quicker actually and

because uh near misses are

mathematically more likely to happen

than actual wins it compels people to

repeat the behavior do they use n misses

as a way to engage us with technology or

anything else in our lives is there like

any other examples within our modern

lives where I know brands or technology

companies are using that as a way to

engage us yeah well you could think if

you

um I mean say you get an update on your

phone let's say you go into Instagram

and you get an update and it's a comment

I mean you could

argue well a comment it could be good it

could be bad is this a comment from like

someone that I think is super cool

that's saying oh that's an amazing photo

you look wonderful on that photo or is

it some troll online going man you look

like a complete idiot in that right so

there's always unpredictability and

embeded in social media it wouldn't work

if you knew what was coming I guess

that's what why so many people just keep

tweeting and posting because it's kind

of like every post comes with a bunch of

likes and you're going you know you

might go viral yeah totally yeah think

of the think of the experience of using

um we'll take uh Twitter um now called X

apparently um so you let's say you have

come up with a a little tweet that you

think is hilarious it's of the moment

right so you put it up and then you wait

right the reals are spinning

and you open the up app back up and

you're like did people like it did they

retweet it and you don't know what what

could have happened it could be so

clever that like oh my God so many

people have retweeted this and this

feels amazing if this happens but it

could have fallen flat and then you're

like now I actually look like an idiot

because I put out a joke and no one

thinks it's funny it's like telling a

joke in front of a room and people just

stare at you right so there's this range

of unpredictable outcomes that could

happen same with scrolling though in a

way I mean you just scroll and scroll

and scroll and you're kind of searching

for that video that's going to provide

you with a hit of something right could

be oh here's some sort of crazy fight

that happened outside of a bar after a

Philadelphia Eagles game because the

fights are always in Philadelphia in the

US um or it could be this video this

amazing heartwarming dog video and that

makes me smile or it could be some

hilarious video that you're just

laughing your butt off until you're kind

of sucked into that waiting for the next

win right you're scrolling scrolling

scrolling and then that's the one that

got me how do we break out of this cuz I

you know I want to take back control

yeah well we all

do um well first I will say that um when

people fall into this loop I like to say

that you're not a bad person because

this is very much part of the human

brain you know people will be hard on

themselves because their screen time is

so high and like why do I keep doing

this thing so you're not a bad person

it's your ancient brain working against

you it's not your fault but it is your

problem you still have to figure out how

am I going to get out get out of this uh

the first step to me is just being aware

of it in the first place so once you

become uh aware of behavior and observe

a behavior it tends to change that's

called the Hawthorne effect and then the

second part is that you can remove or

change any of the three parts of that

Loop that I of the scarcity Loop that I

mentioned so you can remove or change

the opportunity you can REM remove or

change the unpredictable Rewards or you

can remove or change the quick

repeatability you can slow things down

in scarcity brain in chapter four you

talk about something I was also very

very compelled about which is you make

the case that we have an ingrained sense

of not being enough my first book the

last chapter is about this idea of like

not being enough I've always

hypothesized whether humans are built

with a I don't know a message in our

genetic code that tells us where we are

designed and we will struggle forward to

get more like is that hard wide into us

well I think that when you when you look

at how humans behave it seems to be

right and I think it does go back to

Evolution because if you had more of

these things that we need to survive

whether it's food to stuff to

information to um status you would have

a survival advantage and that's still um

built into us I think it still is

advantageous today to a point um now I'm

going to turn the question back on you

so it's like you probably you have that

drive right and that's taken you to a

certain place and now um you have

certain Financial assets and you've sort

of shifted though too your career so now

I'm turning it back on you how do you

feel like that's manifested itself in

your life I it's interesting because in

chapter 7 you talk about this idea of

status and I once upon a time three four

years ago would have told you that I'm

no longer playing status games because

three or four years ago I would have had

flashy things like I had like a Rolex

and like a sports car and designer stuff

now I have none of that the outfit you

see me in now is pretty much the outfit

everyone sees me in always and so I

assumed that I like liberated myself

from the game of status however I read

another book and it was it made the case

that are the status games we all play

just change and in fact it's an anti-

signal now for someone in my position to

have those things so I'm just playing a

different status game maybe the status

game I'm playing is how big can my

podcast be or how good can I be on like

TV or whatever it is MH it's just a

different game so that's kind of where I

think I am now I think I've just changed

the game no I think you're right I think

we all changed the game and we like to

we like to think that we're either not

playing the game or that the game hasn't

changed um everyone's like that so

what's it what's really interesting

about status which I I loved learning

when I was uh reporting about it in the

book is that

um psychological researchers they didn't

really research status all that much

until the 90s and this is because

they didn't want to admit that status is

important to humans because by

researching it you are saying this is

probably important to me so the worst

thing you can do for your status is tell

people that you care about your status

absolutely yet everyone cares about it

and everyone asks oh no I don't care I

don't care what others think about me

it's like yeah you do like let's I'll be

honest everyone cares to some extent

what others think about them in some way

and I think by talking about it and also

understanding why in the first place is

important now the reason why to me is

that the more status and influence that

you would have had in the past uh would

have given you a survival advantage in

the sense that you probably would have

to you probably wouldn't have to do the

crappy like menial labor that burns

energy you probably would have had more

mates you probably would have gotten

more food you probably would have gotten

all these things and still today when

you look at um how status affects Health

people of lower status tend to have

worse Health outcomes Than People of

higher status and so you might think

well this is just because the the higher

status people have more money and they

can go to better hospitals and get

better healthare but the thing is is

that it holds in countries that have

Universal healthare so everyone's

healthare access is pretty much

equal could it not relate to the type of

work they're doing because as you kind

of said earlier I think of if you're

lower status one might assume the type

of work you're doing is constrained MH

low autonomy maybe more isolated

potentially monotonous or less

fulfilling and that might have

physiological

implications um it's interesting people

that are higher status live

longer that's not a nice narrative is it

yeah no and that's the thing it's like

it's not super comfortable to talk about

right um and it definitely affects us

and here's a here's a sort of fun crazy

study that I came across while reporting

scarcity brain is that uh flights that

have a first class cabin they have a

four-fold higher rate of rage compare

compared to flights that don't have a

first class cabin and if the passengers

in second class coach have to walk

through the first class cabin the rate

increases to a ninefold increase in

incidents of air rage what is air rage

people going absolutely nuts on flights

it's like when there's a there's a big

incident with you know the the flight

attendant or someone just losing their

mind and they have to ground plane or

whatever it might be and why do you

think that is well the researchers think

it's because of that massive status

queue of having to walk through first

class and by the way you're not first

class because you're in coach we talked

about um food in your how you covered it

in your first book but in your second

book scarcity brain you talk about food

again specifically you talk quite a lot

about snacking oh yeah snacking what's

the problem with snacking everybody

snacks so this isn't in the

1970s the food industry decided you know

we need to come up with this new

category

of eating and it's eating between meals

snacking now if people are eating three

Square meals um they may not be super

full so they kind of need just these

little meals they can have and they need

to be easy to eat they need to be quick

to eat so they come up with um snack

foods and what's really interesting is

that uh you know I told you about the

scarcity Loop there is a executive in

the food industry who's was talking

about what makes a snack food successful

like how do you sell snack food and he

said it has to have three V's it's got

to have value it's got to have variety

and it's got to have velocity that's

just another way of talking about that

Loop so right it's a good value variety

it's got to have a lot of different

interesting intense flavors and there's

got to be a lot of different options so

when you think about chips or crisps as

you guys you guys call them crisps right

there's a bunch of different flavors

there's like barbecue there's sour cream

there's salsa there's like all these

different flavors and then um velocity

it has to be quick to eat so when you

Ultra process a food as I mentioned

before people tend to eat it faster and

so the industry really leans into this

they create snacking as this totally new

category and this is um in the 70s is

when you really start to see obesity

climb and it's because we just end up

eating more across the day meantime our

activity levels are are dropping there's

a kind of a through line there with

gambling when you talked about velocity

the the speed in which you get the

outcome mhm being short the faster we

can do a Behavior the more likely we are

to repeat the behavior especially if

it's unpredictable so one of the big

advances in Casino technology for

example with slot machines was removing

the handles because you know if you've

um if the machine has a handle you have

to once they got rid of handles and just

put a spin button you can keep your hand

on the button and

just and it basically doubled the rate

of gambling so people went from playing

I think 400 to 500 games in an hour up

to an average of 900 so that's more if

you break that down by minute um it's

more than we

blink interesting yeah with a crazy

range of outcomes too why can't it so if

snacking is a sort relatively new

invention in modern society and it's

it's correlated to the rise in

obesity can we not just measure the

amount of calories that we have like can

we not just do the you know the whole

calories in calories out approach to

staying fit and healthy oh I I think you

absolutely could but I just the question

is are people going to actually do that

I mean I think there's a certain sub you

know there's a portion of the population

that will do that and you know I do

believe that if you were to measure

everything perfectly you have um you

know you could probably lose weight

eating McDonald's and there's people who

have shown this at the same time if you

are eating only McDonald's I can tell

you something you are going to be

starving throughout the day because

foods that are Ultra processed tend to

less filling per calorie than foods that

have just a single ingredient so I want

you to picture um you and I have a bag

of potato chips and then we have a plate

of boiled

potatoes what do you think we could have

more calories

of aren't they the same thing they both

made of

potato the the fried potatoes right

right really the chips so if you like

how you could probably eat an entire bag

of chips if you really set your mind to

it oh yeah but you could e an equivalent

amount of calories and boiled potatoes I

mean it would you would get full like a

quarter of the way through so for

example you know like a boil an ounce of

boiled potatoes might have 50 to 100

calories an ounce of chips might have

200 whatever it is and by the way it's

also not as filling because there's not

as much water content um so when you

process a food you concentrate the

calories and people tend to eat more of

the food I don't eat them anymore but

they to be one of my favorite foods and

in your first book I think you you came

for them which is quasons but I I don't

have those anymore because they make you

feel like and my gut hates them but

you use a crossant as an example of a

food that makes us less full MH yeah so

there's this really interesting study

out of Australia where they um had

people eat a certain amount of different

types of foods and then they had them go

eat at a buffet a certain amount of time

later and measured how much they ate

after and asked them how how full they

were after eating the test food

so they found that the most filling food

per calorie was plain boiled potatoes um

I think after that was just plain white

fish that was a relatively lowfat fish

and then after that I think it was

oatmeal just plain oatmeal and the least

filling Foods were tended to be things

like croissants cookies foods like that

foods that have been um you know we're

we're mixing

flour fat all these sorts of things and

baking it and it's like this nice crispy

thing so it's really a it's a

measurement of how processed a food is

basically a small croissant and white

potato both have about 170 calories but

you'd have to eat seven cants before you

feel the same amount of fullness as one

potato H how much of weight gain is

about the feeling of fullness because

it's not really a concept that I really

thought much about this idea of fullness

I thought

the key thing was calories or not eating

junk food but

fullness well I think that you will

be

Fuller or you will be as full eating

fewer uh and end up eating fewer

calories if the food is not as processed

so the foods just they take up more room

in your stomach they're not packing in

as much calories per

bite let's say for you to be full you

have to eat 10 ounces of

food and we have one food then that has

50 calories per ounce and one food that

has 100 calories per ounce right so if

you were to eat the 10 oun of this food

you're going to eat 500 calories but if

you eat 10 ounces of this food you're

going to eat a thousand and I think that

you extrapolate that across the day and

you start to see oh okay I can see why

choosing foods that help me be more full

on fewer calories could be good if my

goal was to lose weight or not gain

weight compared to F foods that are more

calorie dense what's your position on

fasting I think that it can be a good

weight control tool for some people I

think um it can

constrain like look if you're a person

who's eating around the clock and you go

okay well I'm just going to eat from

noon to whatever 6:00 p.m. or 700 p.m.

you've just cut out a lot of meals um I

also think that if you were to go well

since I'm only eating from noon to 6:00

p.m. um I better eat a ton every single

meal I don't know if you would lose

weight I think there could be definitely

some um health benefits

possibly um but I also think that if

you're doing these extended fast that

could maybe not be great for for muscle

mass so I think it kind of goes back to

like these things are complicated right

and I think it kind of goes back to uh

what is your goal uh how are you trying

to use this tool like what are you doing

this for and then is the way that you're

doing it does it align properly with

your goal but I do I mean I've met

plenty of people who have lost weight

fasting simply because they ate crap for

breakfast and they would stop at

Starbucks on the way um to work and get

some sugary drink and like just by

cutting that out because now they don't

eat till noon like they ended up losing

weight you talk about hungry

days programming two hungry days per

week yes hung day that's one that um has

worked for some people where you could

eat relatively normally say 5 days a

week and then people will eat say 500

calories on their two hungry days so

basically you're just constraining your

calories basically just pulling the

lever of time right um if you can at the

end of the day it

um I think really calories is probably

the best predictor of weight gain or

loss and so the question is okay if you

need to reduce the calories how are we

going to do that and there's a lot of

different ways to do it I think that

fasting is pretty damn simple right it

seems a lot simpler than some of the

other methods out there I was on a a

treadmill many years ago in Boston and I

always tell the story cuz I'd got into

this routine of running like 5 10 kmers

a day every day on the treadmill pretty

much every on the treadmill and I and

when I got to that 510 km Mark I would

typically feel like fatigued and then

there was this one day where I landed in

Boston got on this treadmill that the

distance dial wasn't working so I

couldn't see how far I was running so I

thought well I'll stop when I feel the

usual feeling and I start running and I

start running and I start running and I

start running and I only get off the

treadmill because I'm going to be late

for this appointment that I have and

when I hit the stop treadmill button the

distance pops up and I've run two times

further than I usually run on a

treadmill and I didn't feel the same I

felt fine felt fine and I couldn't

understand that until and I've said this

on stage quite quite often as evidence

that there's clearly something going on

in our psychology that is signaling to

our body that we are at our limits and

that's clearly somewhat of an illusion

and then I read in your first book The

Comfort crisis this idea of where you

talk about mental fatigue does that kind

of marry up to what I'm what I'm saying

oh 100% muscular fatigue sorry our

psychology effects are how we perform

basically and there's a lot of

fascinating studies um similar to yours

where they will uh take people and um

you know they'll give them some sort of

cue like we're gonna run as run as far

as you can um most people are getting

about an hour so they'll give them this

Quee and then they will change the uh

time basically they'll change the clock

so the people maybe have run 40 minutes

in real in reality but they think

they've done you know an hour and 5

minutes which is 5 minutes longer than

some of the better times and they'll be

like okay I'm totally wiped out they'll

do opposite where they slow down time so

these people will have run an hour and

say 30 minutes I'm making up the times

but they think they've run that hour and

five minutes just a little bit better

than the next guy and then they'll then

they'll be like okay I'm totally

fatigued and there's plenty of research

that goes back years that basically says

our psychological perceptions is a key

determinant of um how tired we feel

during exercise cuz at the heart of this

Comfort crisis is our psychological

relationship with discomfort discomfort

to me feels like a story I tell myself

oh it's totally a story yeah what story

are you going to tell yourself right so

here's another great

example your

legs they're they're spasming they're

tired if you're running up a hill it

sucks you want to quit if you're having

sex this is great right like context

really matters about how we feel and so

I think also realizing you know there's

some really fascinating studies

that show we don't recruit all of our um

capacity more or less because uh it's a

defense mechanism right you want to keep

some capacity on board so your brain is

trying to slow you down and shut you

down before you've reached your limit

framing how you want to view how a

workout is going is important right and

I think it can allow you to squeeze a

little more performance out of it now

let's say your brain only allows you to

recruit 50% of your muscle I don't think

you can go I've only gotten 50% and

you're going to get like up to 100 like

doesn't work like that but I do think

running it through like context and

thought and realizing like this actually

isn't as bad and by the way I've chosen

to do this and it's kind of awesome that

I can choose to do this can allow you to

perform a little better I wonder I wish

there was like a magic pill we could

take which allowed us to change the

frame and the story We Tell ourselves

about the discomfort we experience you

know because there's clearly a big group

of people that are able to you know

Ultra Runners and Ultra athletes and all

this stuff but you but this can also be

I mean this isn't just exercise we're

talking about right it's like what story

am I going to tell myself in any given

situation so I get I'll give you a good

example is that um so I spend 33 days in

the Arctic right now to get up to where

the drop off point is you have to take a

bunch of different flights my first

flight is from Las Vegas to uh

Seattle and I hate flying right the

plane is always too hot the seed is

cramped the movies suck on the plane if

you want to go to the bathroom it's just

cramped little closet babies crying it's

just it's

terrible then I go spend a month in the

Arctic where I'm hungry the entire time

if I want water I have to hike down to

the stream and Hike it back up I'm

freezing cold the entire time I'm

sitting in the dirt the entire time if I

want to go to the bathroom I have to

hike out onto the tundra and I got to

bring a rifle because there's grizzly

bears so when I leave that world and I

get back on that flight to Las Vegas

what do you think the flight was like h

amazing this is the most amazing thing

that's ever happened to me right so the

chair I hadn't sat in a chair for more

than a month it's like oh my God this

chair is so incredibly comfortable I'd

been freezing the entire time so that

warm plane I was like oh this plane is

so comfortable so nice and warm I'd been

bored out of my mind up there the whole

time because I don't have any screens or

anything so those movies in the seat

back oh my God this is the most

stimulating thing I've ever watched this

is

incredible um snack food I used to think

the airplane snack food sucked I'm like

oh my God these pretzels amazing and

then when I go to the bathroom right

it's you hit this little red Tab and you

get hot running water that hits your

hands at 35,000 ft and you're moving 600

mes hour through tube of Steel it's like

when that hot water hit my hands it was

incredible so context matters because

once I went and did that that totally

reframed how I think about these

situations that I used to about in

the past and now I can appreciate them

so the reality is is

that the world that we live in today is

amazing in so many ways like full stop

incredible the fact that we have hot

running water on demand the fact that we

have all these different forms of

entertainment the fact that we don't

have to hunt and gather for our food

like we're not forced to do these things

um but we often miss how amazing that is

because we're like the fish thrown in

the water that don't in the water and um

I do think that doing things that push

back against that having experiences

that you throw yourself into they can be

big and small that throw you out of your

comfort zone and give you perspective I

do think that that is important um in

order to live well and get perspective

and have gratitude I mean I still have

times today

where I'll be washing my hands the

water's nice and hot and I'll think back

to that and be like Oh remember when

like hot running water hit your hands

and you got emotional how amazing it is

I mean it's good to have these reminders

that life is pretty amazing right now

we've come pretty far it made me think

that discomfort is an antidote for

happiness in that regard because you

know and also then my it popped into my

brain what I what I used to learn about

the stoic people and how they do that

sort of what hnis adaptation and they

would um remove the pleasantries from

their lives so that they could

appreciate them more yeah we adapt to

what we have so it's like today's

pleasure is tomorrow is just any given

thing and we're looking for the next

pleasure and um there's some interesting

studies about this as well one of my

favorites from the comfort crisis is

this study that found that as people

experience fewer and fewer problems we

don't um become more satisfied we simply

start searching for the next problem

really yes it's called it's a theory it

was discovered by Harvard researchers in

the psychology department and it's the

technical term they call it as

prevalence induced concept change and

you can just think about it as problem

creep Now problem creep creep right so

you know what used to be a problem

yesterday or we're always going to look

for problems it's basically what I'm

trying to say um and they discovered

this where in this study where they

would have people look at a bunch of

different faces and determine you know

is this face threatening or

non-threatening they'd go one face after

another and by the 200th face though

this the scientists started feeding the

participant or the yeah the study

participants fewer and fewer threatening

faces the other study they did two of

these they had them look at research

papers and determine whether the

research papers were ethical or

unethical same deal about Midway through

they start feeding them fewer and fewer

unethical research

proposals now if these two things are

black or white the groups would have

said threatening fewer times as time

went on they would have found fewer and

fewer unethical research proposals

because they've been given less right

because they've been given less but that

didn't happen what they did is they said

said threatening the exact same amount

of times they took faces that were kind

of on the border that they would have

passed up and not said were threatening

before they started deeming those

threatening same with the research

proposals they started getting more

nitpicky now the scientist who I uh

spoke with his name is David lavari yep

getting his name right I remembered it

um he explained that probably in the

past it gave you a survival advantage to

always be looking for the next problem

right cuz if you're a type of person

who's vigilant going okay we might run

out of food that is problematic we got

to fix it um this is a problem let's fix

that if you're Vigilant like that that

would that would help you survive right

but applied to today's world where

you've seen the world get better and

better over

time it often causes us to miss how

amazing it is and pile up first world

problems right so uh there's also

amazing research where researchers will

ask the average American do you think

the world world is improving and only 6%

of people think the world is improving

it's because we look for the next

problem but if you think about that from

like let's take the last 500 years like

of course the world is better you live

longer you're more likely to be literate

you're less likely to be starving you're

less likely to use a child yeah exactly

on and on and on but we often don't um

realize that in the moment and that

affects us are we getting you know you

talked about the abundance we have in

the world but are we getting

happier do you know any stats around

around our Collective happiness or how

we report on

that yeah I think a lot of the research

on happiness suggests that we are less

happy than we were um more mental health

problems as well we all know those stats

around Depression more mental health

problems yep and there's probably a

variety of reasons for that but I do

think that one one thing that's

interesting

um we seem to live in a world where uh

a lot of people have enough of what they

need to survive and if they don't it's

probably a governmental problem it's

probably a distribution problem um and

this I'm mainly talking about developed

countries here but as we've got more and

more and more we haven't necessarily

become more happy so for example I think

their year was from 1970 to about

2000 the real income of Americans grew

by 50% so this is um this factors in you

know price adjustments

inflation so people got 50% richer on

average yet happiness didn't change in

fact it might have actually decreased a

little bit so this suggests that once

our needs are met to a certain point

like it's not necessarily going to make

us happier yet we keep thinking that you

know happiness is going to be in the

next purchase that it's in the next meal

out that it's in the next uh viral tweet

or whatever it might be did they

discover an antidote for this sort of

incessant search for problems because

I'd like to be content

yeah well that that's the that's the

search right that's the that's the

ultimate human search I think that a lot

of uh religions they're set up to

counter

that right don't don't uh don't steal

because you're taking away from someone

else and Society falls apart don't be

gluttonous because that's going to give

you problems don't you know they're all

telling us don't overdo all these

worldly things that we tend to overdo

and instead the f is to you know take

the focus off

yourself and put it on something that

will help you um kind of do the next

right thing now those get interpreted in

ways that can be controversial of course

but I do think that the overall

architecture is the same and that is the

that is the ultimate question for all

people right my whole team here have got

more and more into running we speak

about running all the time and obviously

you know Daniel liberman who's been on

the show before I think he wrote well he

wrote a book on running didn't he it's

his last book the one we had a

conversation with on the show what's

your perspective on exercise running and

what did you learn when you studied um

nomadic tribes about the importance of

exercise yeah well I mean I do think

that um it's probably the best thing

that you can do for your health is

exercising and I think that um you know

a lot of people will say exercise is

medicine I think more that inactivity is

poison so we evolved to have a certain

amount of activity in our daily life

like we need that in order to be get a

certain to healthy and happy and we

often don't get that today the way we

design Our Lives um something I write

about in the comfort crisis

is uh the human body is good at two

things humans have all to be good at two

things one of them is running long

distances relatively slowly which I'm

sure Daniel liberman talked about

because he's the dude who discovered

that he's great but the other thing that

we are good at is carrying things for

distance so you you ask okay well why

are we good at this long distance

running in the Heat and it's because we

would chase down animals who are not

good at cooling themselves um for miles

and miles and miles until they

overheated and then we would kill them

and we would have our

meal but then what happens after you

kill an animal away from

Camp call an anci

Uber you got to carry back yeah and

we're the only uh we're the only animal

that can carry things for distance

well and that absolutely shaped us just

as much as running did so we've got

these hands that can grip things

strongly we're built in such a way that

um we can carry stuff for distance and I

argue in the comfort crisis a lot of

people still run like jogging is popular

but carrying things as a

workout is something that a lot of

people don't do and so I advocate for uh

rucking which is loading up a backpack

with weight and walking and when you

compare uh rucking to running rocking

tends to um be less injurious so people

the injury rate is much lower it also

preserves more

muscle than running does so when you run

you're burning fat but you're also

burning muscle when you rock because you

have weight on your body it's signaling

your body like don't burn quite quite as

much muscle and studies bear that out

um so you're kind of getting cardio and

weight training in one and I think it's

a good thing that people should be doing

I'm not saying don't ever run but I am

saying we've engineered this really

important form of human physical

activity which is carrying things for

long distances out of our lives and by

adding it back in I think we do get a

lot of different benefits how does the

modern body look different to the body

of our ancestors in that regard or these

um nomadic tribe tribes do they have

sort of cuz I imagine if they're if

they're carrying things in a world where

we can put it in the boot of a car or

find some other means using Wheels to

roll it they must be physiologically um

adapted in certain ways I think that

well I think that in my experience and

you would have to talk to Dan as well to

see if he um agrees with this but I do

think that most Hunter gathers are much

smaller than the average Westerner is

they're just much smaller because they

don't have as much food they're also far

more active and so they're not giant

people when you look at when you look at

people in the west today were giant

people in the grand scheme of time and

space who burns more calories uh well if

you did it per pound of body weight they

do like by far but when you they might

wait so you have to do it by how big the

person is right if you have two people

that are burning 3,000

calories great but if one person weigh

weighs 250 lb and the other weighs 120

lb well the person who's 120 lb is

burning far more for their body weight

and that's an important distinction that

needs to be made when we talk about do

hunter gatherers burn as many calories

as Westerner because there's some people

who are like well they burn the same

it's like yeah they're 100b on average

we're on average 200 lb like that's a

big difference the arms of the average

Prehistoric Women for example were 16%

stronger than those of today's women's

Olympic rowers yeah Jesus yeah they're

they're very fit people I mean they can

go there's this one um Anthropologist I

talked to who spent some time with

hunter gatherers in Tanzania and she

talked about how even the older people

in the tribe we're talking about you

know 70 80 year old women they can just

hike all day they can hurdle over rocks

like it's like they're monsters and I'm

like you know she's a 30-year-old woman

she's like I'm kind of trailing behind

these these women that are like two

almost three times my

age and that's because they've stayed

active in kept muscle mass right yeah

they stayed active and so when you think

about daily life

um a lot of it is effortful so they're

not just Co they're not just covering

ground they're covering ground that is

rough right it's all

Outdoors um that's going to require more

energy than a than a sidewalk they're

carrying stuff they're squatting they're

digging they're some of them will climb

trees even when they're resting they

might rest in the squat position where

we are going to rest in a lazy boy and

just melt into it right so there's this

all this I mean besides just the stuff

that we would look at and say like yeah

that's active I mean even just resting

is more active than we're they're always

undergoing some low level of physical

activity and now we've engineered so

much of that out of our lives and that's

undoubtedly changed us but we don't even

know it's like we're born into it right

because as a species we evolved to do

the next easiest most comfortable thing

so we have applied that with technology

ology to our

environments and it's good overall but

it's changed us it's changed our fitness

it's changed our physicality and once we

did that and realized oh we've taken out

all this physical activity out of our

lives and now we're getting sick for it

we go well I guess let's just like build

these buildings where um you just go and

you know maybe you run on a belt and

maybe you pick up some uh weights that

are perfectly balanced and you do that

you know how about three sets of 10

that's what we'll call it right so when

we we basically invented exercise right

and it's not the same as we used to

necessarily do in the past I'm not

saying that there's anything wrong with

that but I just saying that the way that

we are Physically Active today even that

has changed greatly like no one in the

past would have tried to get Giant and

lift a bunch of Weights that it doesn't

make sense to have all this extra muscle

you didn't have enough food to grow it

you didn't want to be carrying that

around on your persons I mean think of

mountain climbers they don't like bulk

up for a climb right they don't get huge

and jacked it's like no you need to be

strong for your weight you need to be as

strong as possible for your weight but

you don't want to have any excess weight

and today you have people who are like I

just want to be like 250 pounds of pure

muscle it's going to be awesome people

always people have been saying to me

that calisthenics is one of the more

important exercises probably for that

very reason that lifting your body

weight is probably the central being

able to move your body is the most

important thing not having massive guns

yeah and I think it is a strange thing

like there is some research that says

that muscle mass um is good for

longevity and protective um a lot of

those studies are often conducted um

looking at people who are sarcopenic and

there's a difference between people who

have a dangerously low level of muscle

mass and those who just have a ton just

to have it I think probably The Sweet

Spot is just be in a as much as BMI is a

controversial measurement I think

probably be in a BMI that is normal and

try and be strong for your weight and do

a bunch of cardiovascular exercise I

mean just look at like what did humans

do for all of time that's probably a

pretty good road map to try and mimic

and you tend to find that those people

aren't that giant Daniel liberman said

something to me which is clearly so

obvious but really did shock me he said

when he spoke to these sort of hunter

gatherer tribe

communities they almost laughed at him

when he asked them what they do for

exercise because the concept of exercise

is not something they think about

because they're exercising all day so I

think he remarked that one of those

communities turned around him and was

like why would you run for

fun totally yeah they he was go what do

you do for exercise and they probably

said what the hell's exercise literally

like oh he said like something like

training what do you do to train and

they were like training like we it's

part of our life is exercise well that's

how it was for all of us forever like no

one moved just to move because our

lifestyles in the past were we had to

just move for work and you wouldn't want

to do any extra because you were moving

all day for labor I mean this was Farm

labor really taxing most people worked

in agriculture um until the Industrial

Revolution um exercise is something that

we invented once we engineered movement

out of our Lives you took about a second

ago about exercise as a psychological

act I.E once upon a time when we were

out in nature exercising we would be

psychologically stimulated because there

might be a bear or I don't know a lineon

coming at us so we we're we're moving

our bodies but our mind is so attuned to

everything happening around us now as

you said we're on in these gyms with

these rubber belts and we're watching

like I don't know we're like looking at

the screen or watching Netflix or just

yeah whatever real housewise on the on

the treadmill does that having exercise

be a psychological act where it's

psychologically stimulating through the

when you're doing it does that matter

yeah why I just wrote a deep dive about

this on my newsletter um which I call 2%

we can I can explain why I call it 2%

but when you think about the context of

exercise um that we used to do in the

past there are so many more things

happening than just

the physical work of moving your body