i like a really good life and i have a

very good life

i knew i was a bit different as well

though you know you felt different i did

feel different i was doing

tv shows radio shows i had my own

collection

i had the business oh god how [ __ ] is

that life

and i lost me in that there wasn't times

where it wasn't

fantastic there was but where was i i

didn't stop

to breathe we've really [ __ ] this

planet for you guys

we were blind we're blind consumers

living in life while we

slowly killed the planet and our

well-being so it has to be you guys that

don't know

my mother died when i was very suddenly

of um encephalitis when i was 16

and she was the center of you know the

world and

i had to grow up very quickly and all

that misbehavior

went into sort of responsibility this is

this is

really painful yet somehow i i wasn't

able to express it

[Music]

mary portis you may know her from the

high street you may know her from

business or you may know her from her

books

but the experience i had with her today

is honestly incredible she is hilarious

she is smart she's witty and she is

willing

to be honest at all costs and that

really speaks to one of the central

principles she'll talk about today

which is this idea of the importance of

being true to yourself she's made the

mistake that 99

of people that are listening to this are

going to make are currently making

or are in the process of overcoming

which is living a life that isn't true

to who you actually are

and today she's also going to tell you

about an idea that will be fairly

radical to some people

especially people who are building and

have built big businesses

which is based on her new book rebuild

how to thrive

in the new kindness economy

she has achieved things that most people

in business would never

even dream of she's been a media star

she's been a political figure at times

and through it all through the hardest

of times through grief

through trauma through broken marriages

through public scrutiny in the press

she has emerged as an incredibly

outspoken

honest humble intellectually challenging

and stimulating

humorous inspiration leader entrepreneur

and public figure i laughed i realized

and i was deeply

inspired and you will be too so without

further ado

i'm stephen bartlett and this is the

diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening

but if you are then please keep this to

yourself

mary um you're a very stand-out person

with a very stand-up personality

and you've managed to achieve some

pretty remarkable things in your life

and

from a place of curiosity that always

makes me wonder what it is that made you

different and

i like to always start with people's

childhoods and their upbringings because

i tend to believe that that's the most

influential part of their life typically

so

is there anything from your um younger

years that you think has been defining

in the person you went on to become

um i well of course i think that that

probably is the case

um i was one of five kids but i was the

fourth out of five

um and uh we were my parents were

irish had come over in their late 50s

from ireland my father was a protestant

my mother was a catholic so you know

from belfast from the north of it um of

ireland so this wasn't

you know they they uh this was the time

when that wasn't looked on too

happily so they came over and chose

watford to live in

[Music]

it could have been dagenham but they

chose watford those were the two options

and

um i'm kind of proud george michael

elton john so we're we're kind of and a

good football team

but i think um i think looking back on

my childhood my my older siblings we

often talk about this we're very very

close it's sort of a two-year one-year

gap between us all

and i was the fourth and i remember

vividly

thinking i'm not the eldest i'm not the

youngest i'm not the first girl and i

didn't feel particularly special

but so i was very um

naughty as a child you know just spent a

lot of time

up to pranks and trying to find my voice

i think really

very loving household um my father was

very

high highly strong hard-working

and my mother was a poetical musical

and was pushed us academically put us

all through the grammar school system

i remember my sister coming home from

school and saying i'm number two

in the class i looked at the register

and my mother said and who was number

one

so i think that gives you a sort of uh

taste of what what life is like but um

we're very close and um but my mother

died when i was very suddenly

of um encephalitis when i was 16.

and she was the center of you know the

world and um

just by the the place where i was in the

family my eldest siblings my elder

brother michael was at university and my

sister was just about to go

and work um go training at uch

and my other brother was hairdressing

and so i ended up looking after being

the one at home

and looking after my younger brother

and i had to grow up very quickly and

all that

misbehavior went into sort of

responsibility

that's what i think happened anyway i

mean you know and i i just took on the

role of the

the i wouldn't say parent because i was

not very good at that at all

but the one who managed stuff at home

and even when my elder siblings then

came back

and to this day you know it's mary's

house that we meet at or

really yeah it's really interesting

because i'm i'm the youngest of four

and i feel like i took on that role

where i feel like i had

because my parents were absent by the

time i was 10. why were they absent

my mom just decided that i think she

decided that she'd raised all of the

kids already you know like yeah it's

almost like they've i've done my

my work as a parent all my brothers and

sisters were older than me

so she would then just sleep at her shop

because she was getting burgled a lot at

her shop

getting lots of like racial attacks on

her shop so she would literally go and

sleep in the back room after after work

wake up work go sleep in the back room

but she had a 10 year old at home

yeah and so i just learned this huge i

had this huge void of independence i

became super naughty

breaking into my school yeah all sorts

of stuff i set far to mine

that was by accident i thought i could

do a little bonfire on

the wooden steps but yeah oh my god the

nuns i was

looked

the passing of your parents

[Music]

at a young age how does that impact you

well mine sort of went from from uh you

know this

terrible traumatic my mother was the

central figure um this sort of fiery

redhead who

just was the backbone and i don't look

back in hindsight i go oh amazing but

she was

i was just about baked just about baked

you know she'd i'd had enough

of love and time from her at 16 i think

my younger brother laurence at 14 that

was terribly difficult so you at 10 i'm

with you i can feel that that that's

that's that's a very lonely place for a

young boy

um but my father remarried

within a year i used to come home from

school and he'd be crying you know and

uh and i was actually then finding

lawrence and i were managing his grief

with these young kids really you know

and he remarried very quickly and um and

then he died

of a heart attack nine months after

getting married

but in doing so left the family home

to the new wife of nine months so we

were all

out on our own really after that and

that i think i look back now

i look back now and i didn't look back

for a long while didn't look back

at all but i look back now and i see

that i was in grief for about four years

i mean i used to walk to school crying

and then just get on the bus and smile

it's grief but i don't you know

somehow i suppressed that and um put it

into

a life that i never dreamt i'd have

that's for sure from that

did you ever get help with that grief

never i remember the headmistress

saying you know if you ever want to come

and talk and the headmistress was a nun

called sister saint james who was you

know this wonderful

actually i really really liked her she

was pretty scared by most standards but

i really liked her

um but that was it i wasn't good against

hitting the headmistresses office and

have a sob

especially with a nun and have to beat

my chest and say about 10 hail marys

so i didn't know i don't think any of us

did this was the

late 70s i didn't remember it's funny

like last night i um i got a little

eight-year-old and he's

into elvis presley for whatever and i

put on some youtube and we were

dancing to elvis presley he was trying

to do the little movements and i said

he said elvis died didn't he mummy in

1977

yes the year my mum died so my mum died

in the july and elvis in the orgs and i

remember everybody grieving elvis

and i was going no and i couldn't get on

this i was like what

and everyone's like elvis has died the

headline so i'm just thinking no my

mom's died

this is this is really painful yet

somehow i

i wasn't able to express her

the grief for those four years how did

how did that impact you

um thereafter and also not processing

that grief

well i think i had a lot of anger yeah i

mean my temper was very quick

i don't have that now i've done a lot of

work on it it's called meditation really

yeah and also being able to come to a

place of acceptance

and and having techniques on but i think

i had a lot of

anger i mean my father would you know

was very quick tempered um but then with

five kids running around screaming the

house i think i would have been

so i think that was there um

and i i don't know i just i think what i

did was i just kept going

blindly i mean i didn't have any any

goal or any vision it wasn't like oh i'm

going to show them

i just kept going and i think what i did

was

ignored the deep sensitivity the deep

me i think i ignored that so i believed

i was this

naughty going fast quick-tempered

individual actually i'm not i'm really

soft

i wasn't that but i didn't know that for

a long long time

was that a was that sort of exterior the

slightly tougher exterior

some form of emotional reaction or

defense from something do you think

because

if that wasn't who you were wondering

where that must have came from

well i think it was a part of my

personality my behavior but i think

i i believe that that was me

and i believed that that was going to be

part of my success you know being

quick-witted

i mean fiery doing things fast

which is you know being a part of my

work but i think i didn't ever discover

the deeper sensitivities and there were

times when i felt vulnerable and there's

times i felt lost and i wanted to be

understood and it was like oh it's mary

and you'd go well no because everybody

judged you on that

it went weirdly even i think the persona

that i had on tv

with the orange bob was that and people

would edit me

to that and i would often think but i

spent so much time behind the scenes

sitting with those

shopkeepers holding their hands or

talking to them but

nobody wants nobody wanted to see that

they wanted to go

and actually yeah it deeply there was

another part of me that wasn't expressed

you talk about this um step mother

i wouldn't even call her that really

what would you call her the woman my

father married i mean i i i

again i i think about that and i'm i'm

talking

with my children on this and um

and when i had to write my memoir you

had to go back on this and and

i just cannot understand anybody

not looking after children who are

grieving for their parents i can't

imagine

you know being with anybody or me

marrying anybody i mean i was married a

second time to a woman

and she took on my children i can't

imagine anybody doing what she did

i just it doesn't fathom in my head

here's a woman

who had a child the same age as my

younger brother who left us

homeless left you homeless well my

father left her

our family home we were 19 and 16.

we had no home we had nowhere to live

and she didn't let you live there oh she

sold it she took it

nine months of being married to my

father after 25 years of marriage in a

family home that he built

are you still resentful about that yeah

no were you at the time

no that's another thing i don't feel

resent

i don't know all we wanted

was for dad to be buried with mum

because you know we were brought up

catholics and

when mum died and she was a deep

catholic

um they we booked the plot so that dad

they have the plot so he can be buried

on the same

ground and she didn't want that so we

had to bring the family priest and go

and see her

and we got that in the end and i no i

didn't ever

ever feel a dot of resentment

do you carry those feelings resentment

regret

yeah bridges i just genuinely don't

regret a thing

my life's been extraordinary i had

extraordinary amounts of pain

extraordinary heights

and it's been colorful and one that i

would never have predicted

when you think about the pain think of

the moments of the greatest pain in your

life what are those moments

um undoubtedly my mother dying that

that um where you wake up and it's

it's like something's on your chest

that was and i remember it was sunny

sunny hot i i didn't like the summer for

years it was july hot

july the late 70s that summer when it

was boiling hot

and i just associated that and i used to

love when it became

automotive cold you could go indoors and

hide it felt like a security

to me and everybody was out playing

tennis and walking and happy

and somewhere and you just this heavy

black

pain deep inside you

um and both separations i've been

you know uh in two big relationships

where i've been married and that

that when you split up a family and i'm

a family person when you have to sit and

go okay how do i do this

how do i do this how do i sit with you

my children and say you know this little

life you've got

this is moving on that was those i

actually remember

you know lying awake three nights on the

road not sleeping

a dot and getting up there must be so

much adrenaline in my body i mean i

don't know

i lost about a stone in weight and i'm

pretty slim i remember putting on my

trousers

dropped below my hips oh my god

that sort of stress and pain but you

have to keep going because you are

responsible

for these children that's what i wanted

to ask you about is having been through

so much

stress and pain which is just this

unavoidable part of the human experience

you can't avoid it right yeah if you try

and avoid it you probably end up with

more

um rumi talks about the bruises the poet

sufi perk roaming the bruises and how we

learn from those bruises

tell me about that well he's just one of

my great

i've discovered him um a 13th century

sufi mystic

and he talks about the bruises that we

hit

and how they repair but that's how we

grow

what have you what have you learned

about how to cope with

unexpected [ __ ] and pain that life

throws at you because you know

you never see it coming i mean a lot of

people have had it over the last 12

months right

last 18 months with the pandemic

couldn't have seen that coming

lots of people's businesses just smashed

to pieces they've lost loved ones

how does one cope with

that kind of like grief whether it's a

professional grief or a

you know um the grief of a lost loved

one or the grief of a lost relationship

is there anything you've learned over

the course of your life where you think

that's probably

the best or only approach well there is

the wonderful line of this too shall

pass and it does

[Music]

for me i have found great

great resolve from some of the great

teachings

and the philosophers who i have read

for a long time now probably about 15 20

years

and and even if we look at the basis of

most religion which is a patriarchy and

has been completely screwed and

bastardised by most men

but actually if you look at the truth at

the heart of it it's much the same thing

that we all have to follow and you have

to just connect

deeply with your inner whatever you call

it whether it's your spirit whether it's

your soul whether it's your

as oprah says my inner frequency you

know when that

gets shelved or you're not aligned

that's when you start to behave

and you follow whatever's happening to

you rather than actually connecting

truly back with your strength your

resource

and so that for me has been and i've

tried to guide my children on that and

actually

found that that has been i wish someone

had done that a little bit more it was

it was shrouded in religion when i was a

kid in the catholic faith which i just

could not connect with at all you know

my mother literally you know going to

confession you used to go into the

church and see these eight-year-old

women beating their chest and saying

dear god you know i've seen anything

what's she done you know this is crazy

this isn't this isn't life what the some

poor old but i'm kneeling down beating

her chest

that's not what the world's about you

know that that's what i've discovered is

if you try and get back to your essence

and

know and try and align and connect with

some deeper strength whether it's

through meditation or whether it's just

pause

and breathe it will come through and it

does

i mean that's not to say we should we

have to go through grief

we have to go through mourning we have

to let that go through our bodies

leaving it in your bodies is the worst

thing you can possibly do and i've done

that over the years and i've

had my back put out i've been laid low

because it's in there

so i've i've learned to do that i had

you know first when covered hit it was

shocking for me i mean all my clients in

my business which has been my backbone

for 21 years

just closed down and and nobody said are

you guys okay

they just stopped work i had 55 people

well what the actual [ __ ] is happening

here

and i'm talking to my kids about being

connected to your source and i'm like

jesus wept i've got to pay for all this

and i don't know where i'm going to do

this and i'm just looking down the

barrel at 60 and i suddenly went into

that complete

fear i was like you need to pull this

back i was

actually pretty i felt i was a little

bit ashamed that i wasn't better

if i'm honest i was such a shock

such a shock and i've written about it

in the first chapter of my book because

i want it was so shocking and it was

like well they were falling down like

dominance

that the the clients and we were like

what we thought as a business was just

going

[Music]

um and it just slowly but surely i kept

on connecting back to that

sense of me that deep truth that the

world would look after you

there was a great interview i heard and

i can't remember who it was

and i can't remember i'd like to think

but i remember he was a he was a

a philosopher and he and he said we're

talking about money

and he said think of a time when you've

never had enough

can't think of a time when i've never

had enough money i've had very little

money

but i've lived and i remember just

holding on to that

when it when is the world never ever

truly looked after you

and if you can realign back into that

sense of

connecting and not go for the short term

whether it's you know following a route

that you're you're trying to short term

fix it through stress or through that

anxiety

and you connect back to that true source

it always works

you said during the pandemic you you

felt

it almost was as if you were saying you

felt shame that you weren't

good enough i wanted to get

more detail on what you mean by that no

what i meant was that i i

the work that i'd done on myself on

knowing

that you know this too shall pass

connect back you will be all right the

world will look after you

i i didn't well it took about a month

and then i was like okay and i had

all the kids under one that was

homeschooling happening

i was on you know phone every single

morning with the ceo of my business we

were on

facetime it was you know we were on zoom

calls hideous it was like

all the time it was this world that

you'd been thrown into

where i thought all right you know

approaching 60 ease up now port us

you know you don't need to be doing as

much everything just fell apart

bam like that like that

oh my god what has happened here

so i was a bit disappointed that i

wasn't more

you know arm baby really okay

i was like sort of done a lot of work on

myself but i got it back i got it back

she says talk to me about so i want the

detail as to because i i read that

you'd said you you felt like you were

spiraling

out of control a little bit when the

pandemic first struck and i think a lot

of people can relate to that

that sense of um panic total uncertainty

and i mean we had all of our like high

street clients

completely just cancel all work not even

because they were

they'd gone bankrupt but because they

just didn't have certainty themselves so

yeah

they just stopped it was either like

totally stopped or paused or wait we

don't know what's happening here right

so if i and you you have in your agency

you have

pretty much all high street players

right so i can't imagine

and so i want to know when you say you

were spiraling what does that mean

uh well for example one of my clients

was a big piece of business that would

do the other side of the world i won't

mention

it was a million and a half pounds bam

clothes done

stop that stopped you like what what i

meant by that was i

i've never in 21 years ever had anything

where i thought

financially i've made myself so

financially secure

over those years i've never had anything

that thought that might go

i've never i've never wanted huge

amounts i like a really good life

and i have a very good life but i've

never wanted

you know the big amounts i've always

thought you know this is this is really

good and i so i've never i've always

shared the pie as it were you know i

like a big slice of the cake but i also

i like sharing it out so i was never

i've gone ahead i've got

never that i like a lovely life and

and so suddenly this was like that might

not be the case

and you are the young lad that you've

got to put through school

you might be working till you're 70

whatever

to get this back up but i was like i

don't want to do that

you know so it was going against my my

flow and my energy as well you know

that i wanted to go off and do other

things i was ready to go and do the

the things that one should be doing at

60 plus when you've had a

very big career and doing stuff that and

i suddenly go oh god i've got to get

this back on

and so i just didn't like the way that

that frightened me

it did frighten me you know there were

sleepless nights

but then suddenly this place of

acceptance came and you realize

there was magical times where i thought

i am in lockdown with all three of my

kids

you know one of which had left home

one who's doing a masters and one who

was eight

this isn't going to happen again you

know and there were times where they

were just out in the grass playing

around with us together

and that's that's the magic you know

that's the magic for that little man

there with his big

brother and sister there were times we

just would sit up on um

a place near us in swift's hill and just

look at flowers and draw flowers and i

thought

this isn't going to come again like this

and so i was able to sort of

slowly but surely build back

and things got better and there's a huge

debate now about

what the new normal will look like

especially as it relates to working

and remote working and i wanted to get

your stance on

this whole remote working debate i'll

give you my opinion first because my

opinion tends to be quite controversial

i tend to think people have

overestimated the um

remote working thing and i say this

because i believe that the office is one

of the last sort of institutions of like

community and human connection

dating's gone socializing facebook

social media

dating we now have all these dating apps

and it's felt like in my life especially

as like a 25

26 year old whatever that going to the

office was actually one of the places i

actually got to meet people

in my life and and connect and form

communities and go to a football team as

an adult

and if that all moves to zoom now like

every other part of my life is dictated

by

a glass illuminated screen i worry

and we have had people sat in the chair

from

mental health psychologists and all

sorts and the the consistent theme

for them has been if you can give

someone community and connection in

their life

then they um then they do better they

are healthier and i felt like the office

especially i know you've got an amazing

office i've read about it i've

read about the atmosphere there and and

how impressive that is and we also

went to great lengths when i was reading

about your office it felt a lot like

mine

it's not hierarchical you wouldn't know

who was in charge people are themselves

it's very flexible and open we don't

have these rigid archaic systems in

place

and so it was a really enjoyable place

to be and i would hate

for that places like that to be um

to disappear i think the old office has

to change and die

and be reinvented but i wanted to get

your take on that

well i think you said it i think you

know i think i think there's a lot of

businesses jumping on the bandwagon

thinking how can we you know save money

on rent

yes and not looking at the mental health

well-being i've seen this

i think my officers we opened them up as

soon as we could

we have two days where we say we want

everybody in

because we believe that is everything

you've talked about

and i know even when i go in and i will

see them all

and we will have a laugh and we'll talk

about stuff that's

not even in the work world but those

nuggets those little

messages those little nuances that

happen

are what makes us human it's ridiculous

to think we do i heard google aren't

opening those up for another year and

you think

what the actuals stop this have they

actually

asked their people i have a young

daughter who's been working at home

consistently since she went out to the

world of work

and it is not good for her mental

well-being

and i have watched my children get up at

8 00 a.m

and go straight on zoom that was where's

where's the travel time

where you listen to a podcast or you

listen to a piece of music

or you read something or you bump into

someone on the street and say morning

do you fancy your coffee yeah where's

that gone out of our lives we take this

away

and we take what it is to be human if

you

when i did my high street report i

talked about exactly what you're talking

about

we lose this we lose

what jane jacobs who wrote the death of

the american city

back in the 60s well before i talked

about this she talked about those little

things where you bump into someone on

the street and you say morning are you

getting a newspaper and you say can you

daughter babysit tonight

she said these little things are trivial

but the sum isn't trivial at

all it is a social infrastructure a web

of security that makes us human

the office is the same the office is the

same now i started in my office was

saying you've got a baby you can bring

it in

bring dogs in this was like

10 years ago what you know we need to

ease up and realize

that we need more of this in our lives

i've had to sublet parts of my office

because we had too much space

but we bloody went out and sublet and

fought because we wanted to keep it

because i knew

that this was deeply important

especially to your generation

and you know i know there's people and

and my kids have seen it they

they said that the sort of 40 pluses

yeah it's nice having some time i

understand that

you can pick up the kid you of course

but let's get that balance

let's get that balance and you're right

the more we close down

the more we squeeze our little souls

because those small trivial things are

what make

up our lives i know that so i

would be so pro it i i really think this

needs to be the things

that are part of our society which are

deeply important that do need bloody

government intervention i know tories

don't want to intervene and it's a free

market and all that crap

transports one our high streets are one

our national health service is another

and the way we

work and connect i think is another so i

would be putting this on the agenda i

heard on one of those

what is it called question times which i

keep getting asked to go and i think oh

dear god

um and i was listening to there nobody

was all these sort of aging politicians

who

weren't running businesses who didn't

see the impact

of not of of getting together it's it's

vital please please anyone listening and

if you're listening and you're a

millennial or a gen z

and you don't think you've got any power

pull together get your pals and put

pressure at the top

an awesome open back up

i think that clip will go viral on

linkedin so that's that's great i think

you can reach a lot of people with that

one

my linkedin's very highly engaged so i

think that'll bang um but no i

you know i think that i'm more at ease

because i think in the professional

world it's going to become a battle

of um employees choosing

where they want to spend their time and

where they want to work and so my

objective here isn't to

so what i what i tend what i feel like i

saw was

these kind of fragile dare i call them

leaders in business

doing all this kind of virtue signaling

on on social media and online going

oh we're going to let our employees

decide and if they want to work and i

i've said

publicly like you as a leader you have

to have a backbone and your company

culture should be reverse engineered

from the mission

so you know if you're if you're i don't

know building cars then you need your

people at the factory but also

work should be it should offer more than

just pay

and if it is to offer more than pay

something meaningful it would be

community connection

and these things so my stance as an

employer is i'm going to create the

environment which offers you more

community than you're going to get

anywhere else

good pay more free more flexibility

around things that matter in your life

kids etc and i think i'll be able to

hire all your staff

that you have working from a zoom screen

at home and i think eventually you'll

figure that out and you'll go back

but yeah and that's my [ __ ] yeah

that's what i think i think it's a

competition of like the anatomy i'm with

you

you know it's it's look you as i say

you're young

i remember when i wrote work like a

woman i was like looking at this and

thinking who

who created the code who wrote this [ __ ]

how do we want to work i want people in

my business that have a voice that feel

i will sit with a 23 year old and i know

we'll sit and have a great conversation

as much as

the 45 year old is running the business

i we've actually put that with these two

days

when the chief execs in we want everyone

in

because this is the time when we learn

this is the time we laugh and we

really do laugh i mean i'm the biggest

joker the biggest kid in the office of

mine

and my daughter's been coming in so she

can get some just some interaction she

works in food policy because something

completely different

and she goes mom you're the biggest kid

i said i know i need people around me i

need it and i

love to laugh and it's just fantastic

when you're in an office and you hear

that

and it's not difficult this stuff you

know it's all about

when you feel as confident as you do

you're able to give up that control yeah

that's what you're giving up and saying

you know what i know who i am

and i want you who works with me to know

who you are

and so let's give up that control that

doesn't mean that i'm going to have any

lazy bath

coming in and you know sauntering in

whenever they want and taking no

they know i talk about the kindness

economy the kindness economy is doing

what's humanely right

it's not taking the piss so you have

very you know

strong ethos and ethics and guidelines

of what you believe

your business is and where you want to

go but let everybody be themselves

within that

and part of that is connection i mean

it's fine for me sitting in my north

london

you know home working or i'm in the

cotswolds what about the ones who i've

seen them on zoom

in their bedroom sharing a flat you're

waking

in there and you're doing zoom and if

any

owner of a business or organization

isn't understanding that

shame on you and think about it they're

then probably

picking up a phone to do their dating

then when they're hungry

they they pick up the phone and open

ubereats and deliver and order their

food

and it's conceivable that this

generation and i actually write about it

my book i show how we're getting more

and more stagnant as the years go on

because we're optimizing for

productivity and financial gain as

opposed to human connection we're

actually optimizing we're doing

everything in our power

to sacrifice human connection and

socializing and even things like

exercise and movement

for increased productivity and um

i think it's time to you know i do i

think the government would be effective

in intervening

i mean oh i've given up yeah i was going

to say i don't know what they ain't

going to come from them

they had some like loneliness i think

theresa may appointed the first ever

loneliness tsar for the uk

who was that jesus i don't know but i

have been knocking on your door there

dystopian like

image of this like these like tanneries

in the streets being like [ __ ] talk

to each other like

do you know what i mean like i just feel

like

i think um i think it's going to come

that's why in my book i think it's going

to come from business and i think it's

going to come from people like us

changing that 100 percent agree i think

it's 100

politics i think once we get past this

little woke virtue signaling thing which

leaders are doing now where they're like

we'll just let our employees

do whatever they want and they can just

be all out whatever i think then you'll

have the second wave of that which is

um which is reality um you need to talk

about it on your show you need to talk

about this when you're doing business

you need to get this out there

you need to be a voice for that because

you know it's

um it's only by sharing our voices and

having an opinion doesn't matter who

knocks us so who comes back that you go

no

this feels right this feels right this

is deeply important

deeply important to the next generation

you know we've

really [ __ ] this planet for you guys

you know my generation i've

you know we the generation before me the

the um

the baby boomers they know that so we

have to

we have to hold on to something deeply

precious here and there is a movement

and understanding is

greater and deeper we were blind we were

blind consumers we thought that having

it all

was having more stuff and living a life

while we slowly killed the planet

and our well-being so it has to be you

guys that go no

if we get one thing out of this that's

going to be there that we're going to

change

all those ridiculous ideas that my

generation and the baby boomers bought

into

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you give this a while back to the

podcast

you say they're having it all and having

more stuff we thought that was it which

leads me

into something else i wanted to talk to

you about i read you'd said um

that you're in the public eye you're

making more money than ever and it was

extraordinarily exciting but at

the age of 48 you found yourself crying

almost every day

i was probably physically exhausted um

i just didn't get that joy you know i

just was on this

i was doing tv shows radio shows

i had my own collection i had the

business

i had two kids it was it was crazy

and and i was the nature i was the scent

it wasn't like

you know i had some husband who was

raising

me it was me you know and i thought yeah

but i and the more that comes you'll

know this the more it comes the more it

comes the more it comes

comes keep coming keep coming keep

coming you got to do this gotta do that

and there were parts of it that was just

you know incredible i looked back at it

what

some great years but i was exhausted

and you're not allowed to say that

actually i was thinking about that at

that time there would be those

you know women on the front of the

sunday times magazine like that we can't

show our pose but it'll be like that

you can have it all they got eight kids

and they would get up and they would be

doing you know yoga at 6 00 a.m and then

having a global call with china or

whatever then you know they'd be

bringing dropping the kids off at school

while chatting to god those whoever

sorting out

the day and you just thought oh god how

[ __ ] is that life

where are you where are you and i lost

me

in that it there wasn't times where it

wasn't

fantastic there was but where was i

i didn't stop to breathe i didn't stop

to truly connect

truly connect with me and i remember i

went away

um to some very expensive spa place

where it was all

on shanty and downward dogs and eating

stuff and everyone's all this

you know you go where rich people are

because you got money and you go and you

discover you

and um and i remember sitting in this

yoga session and i just was crying and i

was like

please stop please don't marry please

stop and there's all these sort of

women in their lululemon and i was going

just crying

and i thought and i went in to um

there was this wonderful indian guru

i used to sit in this little room which

you could go and meet and chat with and

i remember going in to see him

and he didn't say a word and i just was

crying i didn't want to speak with him

but i wanted to go to the bookshelf that

was behind him

because i knew there were some books

there and i picked up

eckhart tolle's new earth

and i just took it and as i left he went

that's the right one

and i went back to my room and i read it

and i read it on the beach days and i

was like oh my god i've got the world

wrong i've just completely got this

wrong

and that was a start of my journey

it took many years i'm still you know

getting still

partly hybridizing that life i'm never

going to sit in an ashram but

i i discovered how to connect back

truly with me and stop loading this

stuff in your life mary

and and saying no two questions there

which is

regarding this book this eckhart tolle

book that you you talk about

um a new earth what was it what was the

the key lessons that

imparted on you about life and how

you're living

i'm i was living totally outwardly to my

ego and my persona

marry portis mary with bob mary the

business woman

marry the mother i was not connecting

truly with

who my spirit my soul

so everything was done to feed that

and you believe that that is you you

believe that that is your personality

you believe

all of that you talk about you thought

you'd become a bit of a caricature

oh for sure but i also milked that that

was very profitable

but you know i knew it was brand mary

the red bob the rings you know i've

always loved fashion awards lots but it

was very much you know

a signature so and um

yeah of course i mean i i advise

businesses globally on brands i was i

suppose a brand why itself

and i i just didn't want to be that

anymore philosophy is very clear on this

idea of like abandoning your true self

and the consequences of your ego you're

out

yeah yeah and it seems like such a

clearly

losing game and i think people listening

to this are probably have to be well you

are some stage in the process you've

either

um you're probably you're either at the

start and you've not yet tried to

abandon yourself

because you think that you know because

the outside world has convinced you and

incentivized you to do so

especially social media that'll have you

trying to abandon yourself and become

the kardashians whatever whatever or you

are in the process of

um abandoning yourself or trying to and

you're feeling

the sense of despair and probably lack

of orientation that comes with that or

you've come out the other end which it

kind of sounds like you've

you've got to where you've realized that

you try to abandon yourself and the only

true answer is to

to be yourself because everything else

is despair you either succeed in

abandoning yourself as this one

i think it's called stoddard this

swedish philosophy used to say

if you succeed in abandoning yourself

then you end up in despair

if you fail in abandoning yourself then

you end up in despair so the only

true true path to joy is to

accept who you are yes i think you know

the thing is it's you know it's knowing

what the truth is it doesn't mean that

we're not going to have on

this we are truly connecting on a truth

here i don't think we're

you know performing but part of it is

performative because we are doing

a job that's going to be this podcast

but it's being on the path some people

never even know that past there

you know most people don't and that

you know it i remember when i first

discovered it and people like don't

you know don't talk about that because

you might sound a bit odd on you know

spirituality or blood don't talk about

that and you're like

and i didn't for a long while you know i

i

even was chatting to a great producer at

the bbc saying why isn't there a show on

something like this

on the bbc like no don't mention

spirituality in the bbc at the moment

you're like what this this needs to get

out there

and it's not hokey pokey stuff this is

our truth

and i think what i've tried to do is to

allow

the people who work with me

express that and know about it and we

share it we share it in the business

and it just opens this whole thing up

and there are times when you have to be

as i say performative and be

i'm mary portas you know going out i'm

working i'm writing a piece or i'm doing

a course but i'm rooted in who i am

deeply and i think it isn't whether

whatever we call it whether it's

spirituality whether it's our soul

whether it's our spirit whether it's our

truth whether it's our vibration whether

it's our

you know whatever our vortex

or our frequency is oprah says whatever

getting back to that you know i remember

and i was listening to

the um lovely irish uh

irish poet and i'll think of this

surname and i'll think about it and

they'll all come to me after i've done

this but anyway i remember him

talking about when he used to give the

last rights he's been ireland and he'd

go

to give the last rights to whoever was

dying and he'd go in

and he'd see these little pinched faces

that had lived a life that wasn't in

line with their true

self because they couldn't they had no

choice and

he just said it used to make him feel so

so

sad and then he would give them the last

rights and he would literally see the

pain on their faces their

skin just un un stress

and un wrinkled because they were able

just to be

and that is the greatest gift i think we

can give to anything and and to our kids

you know i mean i put them through a

great

academic system because i could but i

always said

you choose i remember my daughter coming

to me when she just finished oxford she

got into oxford and she was like

um i was deeply proud

and she finished a degree and she said

mom i know

everyone's going to expect me to go in

and make a lot of money i don't want to

do that

i said why do you explain that to me

like you know i'm really going to judge

you on that

and um she wanted to do something that

just connected not with which

but with where her truth was and that's

the only thing i think we need to try

and find in life now your truth probably

was that you know

you wanted to get to that place where

you were able to say

i did this because that's the truth that

was important to you because everyone

else is saying you can't do something

you're not sitting in this system i was

much the same

much the same yeah i met some old school

friends they were like

whoa you know my life because i was just

always the one in trouble or

i remember getting 17 percent in physics

and thinking i don't give a [ __ ]

i don't give a [ __ ] oh my god i was like

17 i never felt embarrassed i was just

like

i knew i was a bit different as well

though you know you felt different

i felt different but i wanted to be like

the middle class girls

that were living in charlie wood and i

came from the working class

so it was the kids from watford that got

into

the grammar school that that were the

sort of that parents didn't have the

money we used to get the bus out and

then the middle class from charlie wood

and all those areas just

their parents used to drop their cars

and then they'd get to the sixth floor

they drive in themselves i was like oh

my god i want to be this

and then i went nah nah

i don't want to be that life oh my life

i want my life

brony ware talks about the same thing

she interviewed people on their

palliative patients i think it's called

on there who does this

brony ware she was a an australian

palliative nurse i don't know if that's

the right word

and she interviewed people on their

death bed and asked them one question

which was what's your biggest regret

as they were dying wow the number and

she released the blog and it the number

one regret of the dying

as she writes in her blog was quote not

living a life true to myself

oh man i remember watching the film of

alan turing and it just actually

heartbreaking and here was a gay man who

could not

live his life and i just thought that

has got to be i think that sort of

the 50s and 60s was worse than any time

you know that american dream of the

housewife and being the the

two kids and living the american dream

and

actually you had to suppress your

sexuality

your frequency your truth your love

your ability to soar isn't that just

the worst torture torture

torture daily hourly yeah

yeah subconscious torture almost yeah

and it's still going on in hollywood

yeah

you you married a man i did marry a man

then a woman then a married woman

and i'm with a woman now well i never

it's interesting i i don't

i don't know whether female sexuality is

particularly different

from male sexuality but i'm

i've been in love with two men in my

life and i've been in love with two

women

i've never sort of i never was a child

oh my god i'm a lesbian

i fancy linda evangelista i've got to do

something about it

i know i had relationships with women i

had relationships with men and

it just didn't ever bother me um but

once i

had fallen in love with the woman i

remember you know saying to my

sister she was like but you're not a

lesbian i said well i don't know what i

am do i have to put a label to it

and the interesting thing is

when i did and you know and married mal

that

all the prides and the you know they'll

grab hold of you and put lesbian

oh okay well i've got to do this for the

sake of all of you and be a voice

which i wanted to be but you kind of

also go now you're also labeling me yeah

it was a really but i also don't want to

let you down stone war

and i will do the opening speech at

pride because i know you need women and

i've just had another one that came

through on you know lgbt

virgin radio mary would you go into

right

i don't want to be also categorized in

that way because i'm not a former prison

as well though isn't it well it is

but i also don't want to not be a voice

because i think it's important for

you know when when i did uh meet mel

there wasn't there was

no women in the public eye besides sandy

toxic

who were in same-sex relationships and i

remember this

my children having to you know when they

went to school there was no books on it

i mean i'm talking what are we milo's

now 26 so i'm talking you know he was

nine

there wasn't so i thought i had to do

that and i did it and i don't mind doing

it

but you know there is a fluidity to it

labels good and bad yeah those kind of

labels those like

socially categorizing labels where they

put you in the label

because they maybe want to understand

you but because they want you to rep

like lead the charge of a movement i get

that obviously young black

yeah yeah you know guys there's not

actually many many of us up here in the

young

yes male represent category

and i'm only actually half black i'm as

black as i am white because my dad's

like my mum's black and i'm like i will

represent the black people

yeah stand behind me and then you feel

okay yeah you say yeah as you say

yeah you know there's probably a net

positive impact of me doing that for

society

so i'll take on that uh responsibility

but then i go back to well i know who i

am so write what you're saying

write what you like and say what you

like because

i know intuition hmm topic i've heard

you talk about a lot

you'd said previously that the biggest

mistakes in your life had come from not

listening to your intuition

[Music]

what comes to mind when i say that which

mistakes i think you know i i think i'll

know when i'm

needed to have got out of you know

relationships and

it kept telling me something and kept

telling me and you're like oh no

no i've suppressed that i've suppressed

it in times where i've you know thought

in business i don't particularly like

this person

and yet they pay me a lot i've

suppressed that

and it always ends up always you know

you feel it you feel it and ideas

sometimes you know ah they just come

if you're really really feeling free

and in tune they just come and they're

they're wonderful it's been my

it's been my i'm sure it's yours but

it's been my

you know ability to sort of feel

something deeply know that that's right

and you can get people that can analyze

put data behind it logic and i've

listened to them in the past and i've

let things go ah

not regret but oh that

you know even you know now

i i've always bought i've always wanted

to do and it's just trying to get an

idea you know a totally

sustainable secondhand recycled

vintage take a whole space like a

massive mail that's closed down and

create tomorrow's

where you everything is about you know

recycled upcycled vintage remote

and i've got to get on and do that but

it's too big

but i just know it will you know and so

i have to follow the instinct on on

doing that

but i think just just sometimes you just

it's the small things as well it's just

the small things where you feel

it's come from there and you push it

down because you put too much logic and

reason behind it

and i think in business we need to let

that open up so much more

certainly in my area of business i

reckon we ended up with such

so many crap businesses because logic

data and systems overtook

instinct creativity and innovation and

we need to bring that back

and interestingly you talking about high

streets what has come back is

people understanding the importance of

connection and community

through high streets and we will see

that coming back um

and i you know i had the labour party

get in touch with me and saying they

wanted to re

you know look at what we were doing on

the high street report 10 years ago

because when i did it 10 years ago

they didn't understand that it was all

about bottom line

all about bottom line what's your view

on

the younger younger generation coming up

you know there's a lot of i think we

talked off

off microphone about um some of the

themes coming out of

you know this this uh instagram

generation like

you know it's like really binary cliches

like find your passion

there's this idea that like um working

hard is now

toxic um and just generally what you

what

what's your if you were to impart advice

or you were to give a perspective on

this kind of like instagram generation

who and their perspective of the working

world um

what advice would you have for them

i think you know the there's the good

and the bad and the ugly isn't there i

mean i think

it's i think it's a really tough world

to be in

that you are always on that's a very

tough place to be

um and i purposely you know don't do as

much even though i should be you know

because i just say i only want to do

something when i really have something

to say

and i know it drives some of my agents

around the bend you know it's in social

media

yeah and i think it's deeply difficult i

think we've got

two strands coming through i think we

it's used as an incredible place for

voice and change to happen and i think

the gen z's

are going to be probably the best

generation that we've seen in

a very very very long time and the more

i read about the more my i have a social

anthropology unit

in my agency the more we research this

the more i utterly love them and i'm

more i want them to make this world

better

and i think they will and you young

millennials absolutely i think

and i think there's a lot that comes out

of it that's fantastic

the other part of it is oh boy i would

love

to change what are now used as icons and

role models especially around beauty

fashion

and young women it is just too much to

live up to

and i i find it that i find

just terribly stressful for individuals

and the way that they've been sold how

they need to look how they need to

behave how their body needs to be what

their beauty regime should be

it's it's ridiculously tough and i you

know i

i live in a society where i'm seeing a

young generation that are pushing

against that but there's an

awful lot of young women particularly

and men out there

who how they are looked and how they're

perceived and what their life is like

and and 40 pluses i look at some people

on facebook and i think

really you're still doing this [ __ ] you

need to go out there and

show what new shoes you've bought or

what you had for brunch and where you at

really really isn't it a bit of a

pyramid scheme and not a pyramid maybe

like a

network marketing scheme in some

respects or

some kind of like network effects

because what's happening is you let's

say you've got

i don't know the kardashians at the top

then you've got people below them

looking up at the kardashians and

thinking [ __ ]

you know what i need to get fake bum and

i need to change this and i need to

change this and i need to post

when i'm wearing my chanel bikini on the

side of that boat so they'd

follow suit which then cascades

downwards and everyone's just trying to

this is what i'm talking about the

pressure i'd love the kardashians to

turn around and say let's not buy any

more stuff and let's recycle wouldn't it

be brilliant

imagine what that would do for

consumerism that's probably the

most impact they could have in the world

is if they just cut out the fakery and

yeah lived more ethically but they just

they're pinned back by

the financial incentive but i you know

when i was doing my research in my book

and looking at the spend

on the pressure on young people

who follow the kardashians to get the

new this the new that

it's insane it's insane

because i used to look back and think

well you know my mother couldn't afford

stuff

so we just we just put up with it but we

weren't sold the marketing dream

we weren't sold this [ __ ] and this has

gone

so deeply into society so deeply that we

do need people like you that go this is

just

crap standing up and saying this is crap

and anyone comes on dragon's den trying

to sell that crap

it's almost like the way i see it is um

like social media in this

that the world the kardashians it's like

they're holding a bit of your

self-esteem hostage

and the ransom of the apparent ransom is

you've got to go get that bag too

or whatever and then when you pay the

ransom you get the bag

you don't get your self-esteem back and

it just increases the ransom just

increases now they're like now you've

got to get an even better bag

and it's just endless like that's

exactly what i wrote about i was part of

that

when i was creative director at harvey

knicks i was i sold this stuff to people

thank you yeah

bloody brilliant look i'm gonna make

this sexy and

and uh and it was it's not dissimilar

now it's just got faster and faster and

faster and faster and faster

and it is totally all based on i'm not

good enough

i'm not good enough we have to convince

them that there's something they don't

have but need

we really need this revolution there is

part that are doing

it but there's a whole part of society

that are still buying into this

this lack of self-esteem and we as

marketers have been selling that

for years i've definitely been selling

that yeah so

at my previous mayor business

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you said you know it was something that

i i thought maybe i was the only person

in the world that also felt which was

before we started recording you said

that you don't get excited about things

yeah i mean i have great things in my

diary or someone said oh aren't you

excited you're doing that tomorrow and i

just think no i just don't get excited

and

you said you don't either i don't know

well i so i didn't actually say anything

but then

my camera guy here jack that's worked

with me for some time says steve always

says that

and it's because there's people who will

say to me oh my god you're doing this

next week or you're going on holiday or

going to this place or you're speaking

in dubai

are you excited and no yeah when they

hit me with the question i go

no no as if you're trying to work that

through because i've never sat with

anyone and worked that through or talked

that through and

and but it doesn't stop me really

enjoying like

experiences the experiences and there

and now i don't put it up there maybe

that's the thing

for me i thought and i might be wrong

but maybe we're going to work it through

now i thought

my lack of excitement was a defense

mechanism because i also need to defend

against going down

when bad things happen so i think over

time i've just

developed this character trait where i'm

just here in the moment focused on what

i have to do right now and i'm trying to

be

stable and calm so i don't swing upwards

with great news i don't swing

downwards too heavily with bad news and

that also means i don't swing too far

into the future

or swing too far into the past that's a

really good maybe

that's it because my friends get excited

about small things and big things

well i've got dinner table at brat and

you're like

great but it doesn't it doesn't excite

me yeah i don't know that maybe that is

maybe that is a subliminal thing that

we've both done i

i hadn't thought about that but i felt i

even had it like

my my partner said to me oh you've got

that aren't you excited

and i said no and i actually have to

tell you i don't get excited

but my girls going into therapy yeah you

have to sit you down and tell you i

don't get it that doesn't mean i don't

feel joy yes

that doesn't mean i don't feel complete

but i don't get excited or maybe

someone's going to listen to this some

really

incredible psychoanalyst and they're

going to go we'll go and we'll work this

out and tell you why

it is really interesting because you as

i think it's so important for you

for you to say what you've said there

which is you still enjoy yourself when

you're there and doing these things

but it's like future anticipation

and i think that must come from living

having lived a very

intense life where the most important

thing in your world is

being in the present right now and

fixing the thing right in front of you

yes

and you've probably not had a ton of

time to sit but then also also i have to

say the privilege of having

had so many great experiences yes

you know so there's not really a

restaurant you've not been to that's

been a mate you know like you've been to

amazing restaurants you've been to

amazing places you've done

achieved amazing things so you're bro

you're sort of like threshold of what

might

it doesn't seem that anything excites me

you know i remember

now you've said something and i remember

just i i think it's being what you talk

about totally connected i remember

a true surge of joy coming through my

body

[Music]

when i was walking through a supermarket

this is nothing to do with the

supermarket

but i had my baby daughter in front of

me

and i had my husband with me with my

little son and i was

totally in a place of joy in a

supermarket

but there was something about this

place of these two beautiful kids i had

love it's just and i remember

this search coming and i'm like i feel

really happy

and i've had other times like that and

they've not been

sitting in can at a restaurant they've

been

really fundamental