Spoke about quite a few things today

that I've never really spoken about.

James Smith, the world's fastest growing

online personal trainer, but he's much

more than that. Like a driving

instructor, I should not exist in your

life in 6 months. Why is it so

acceptable for people to invest money

into fitness professionals and them

still be there 3 years later? So, if you

do your job well enough, your client

leaves.

If people were truly happy, I would have

been shut the hell up then and I

wouldn't have experienced so much growth

from pointing out the inadequacies. I

don't like people that present a

solution without education. It breaks me

to think of the tens of thousands of

people who gave up on their ambitions

because they went the wrong way for

advice. And when they fail the plan or

don't finish it, they blame themselves.

Where the hell have you come to the

conclusion that you would not succeed

following your passion? I just wish that

maybe earlier on someone had said to me,

"Okay, you're not doing well here, but

this doesn't mean you're not

intelligent.

There is something else that you could

do very well at."

Quick one, can you do me a favor if

you're listening to this and hit the

subscribe button, the follow button,

wherever you're listening to this

podcast. Thank you so much.

James Smith,

the world's fastest growing online

personal trainer,

but he's much more than that. He's an

author of three books, his third one's

about to come out. He's unapologetic. He

is outspoken and he says it how it is.

And that's meant that he now reaches

millions of people online every single

week. Now, I had an expectation on

James. I've seen him on social media.

I've seen the types of things he says

when he's on tele.

But the guy I met today

deeply self-aware,

unbelievably humble, and so incredibly

wise. And because he's so honest and

straight-talking, I walk away with some

lessons that I genuinely believe will

stay with me for a lifetime.

You are going to love this one.

Trust me when I say that.

Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett

and this is The Diary of a CEO.

I hope nobody's listening,

but if you are, then please keep this to

yourself.

James,

you've listened to this podcast before.

Um so, you you probably know that I tend

to start in a similar place. I tend to

ask my guests about their early years.

But when I was reading about comments

you'd made about your early years, one

of the things you said is it's not not

much very interesting happened.

Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things

where I was like, there's there's so

many things to talk about, let's not go

there.

As a young child in school,

didn't have a huge amount of friends and

I think that primary and secondary

school, if you had to pick five people

that are never going to accomplish

anything in life, I would have been in

that that group of people.

Uh I was diagnosed with learning

difficulties, which

kind of been disputed. I remember Jimmy

Carr talking about getting that laptop

and it's true, you had to see an

educational psychologist and at the end

they were like, "James' reading and

writing speed is very quick. We think

he's just lazy."

And

throughout school I was in the cloakroom

and they give you extra time in exams,

which I didn't need because I was so

bored, I'd be done the exam 20 minutes

before everyone else and just sat there,

not through being intelligent, but like,

I can't be bothered with this.

And a lot of behavioral issues at

school. Uh

if I look back at that, I almost feel

like my brain was only

functioning at 20% throughout the whole

education system, probably up until

college and dropping out of university

in my first year.

And you were adopted. Yes.

This is a

open topic and I even before this

podcast, I was like, I wonder if any

other high achievers are adopted. Found

Steve Jobs, Jamie Fox.

Uh Marilyn Monroe was in the list. And I

was trying to figure out if I could

draw any,

you know, relations to other people that

have done it. I've even read books where

someone on Instagram's like, "Oh, if

you're adopted, you should read this

because it resonated with me." And I

bought these books and talks about

abandonment and senses of,

you know, unfulfillment. I don't I

didn't really relate with any of those

topics. So, I think that as far as

uh kind of dream adoption story, I ended

up in the Smith family, you know, blonde

hair, blue eyes.

Mom and dad still together now, each

other's first girlfriend and boyfriend.

So, I was incredibly fortunate with

that. Having come all this way in your

life and learned a ton from the books

you've written and I know that's such an

introspective process, but all the

people you've spoken to, all the DMs you

must get, are there any sort of dots

you've connected now that

have made you realize that being adopted

was in any way consequential to who you

were to become?

It's difficult. I'm still discovering

it. Uh you know, with relationships, I

think it's a very interesting one. I've

had conversations with other adopted

people and they they say to you like,

"You become very attached to people very

quickly because,

you know,

it's a very strange thing never seeing a

blood relative before. So,

you might look at your parents and other

people look at their parents and, you

know, uncle or they see features. I've

never had that."

And you never feel like your parents

aren't your parents because I'm a strong

believer they're who bring you up.

But then sometimes in relationships,

maybe I'm a bit cold, maybe I'm a bit

too intense. I'm always judging that and

overanalyzing it. And people ask me as

well, they're like, "Oh, do you think

you're this way cuz you're adopted?" And

suddenly you're overthinking a lot.

You're like, is it? Is it not? Is it

something that's a big part or a small

part? And it's very difficult to get

answers for that.

When you go through school and you go

through like early the early teen years

and then you've got people telling you

you've got a learning issue and then

they're giving you special treatment and

all these things. At that point in your

life, having like bounced around a

little bit and not really fit anywhere

in terms of the system,

do you think in hindsight you were you

were learning that you were like not

good enough? 100% and I think that I

definitely wore that for the next 4 or 5

years. But I thought the only place I'm

going to be accepted is a bottom

position in a corporate gig, 20k a year.

I started off on 18. Sales department,

I'm going to have to cold call people

and kind of work my way up slowly. So,

that's what I did for my early 20s.

Worked in the sales department, 18k

basic, then jumped to another one for

20k basic. I thought, oh, well, I'll do

this for 5 to 10 years, get to a

management role, do that for 5 to 10

years, maybe get near a directorship

role.

And I think that's what a lot of people

who have failed the education system

think. They're like, well, that's what

people do. Oh, I might try recruitment,

which I also did for a year. And

everyone said, "Oh, you'll earn good

money, but you'll hate it." And I'm I'm

22. I'm like, how can you earn good

money and hate it? I did recruitment, it

was good money and I hated it.

So, it was it's one of those things

where definitely I do feel that if we

paint people, when we see people get bad

grades at school,

we should, you know, have a more open

conversation about, "Okay, you're not

doing well at this. What do you think

you'd be good at?"

And

I mean, even in the last 10 years,

"Don't play video games, there's no

future in that." Now there is, you know.

"Don't spend all day on your computer,

there's no future in that." Now there

is. So, I just wish that maybe earlier

on someone had said to me,

"Okay, you're not doing well here, but

this doesn't mean you're not

intelligent.

There is something else

in a lateral, you know, pathway that you

could do very well at." What would you

say to someone and I imagine there's a

lot of people listening to this now who

are driving in their cars now on the

motorway cuz I see them upload the

podcast when they're like driving,

they're on the treadmill on Monday

morning, etc.

And they're in that job

where

but there's that voice inside them

that's saying, "Do you know what? You

could have done more and you've got so

much more potential." But they've

believed the narrative

that like corporate, just climb your way

up some [ __ ] ladder.

I've two answers to that.

The first, so many people are hitting

quotas

working for someone else's goal. So, in

recruitment, people go, "Ah,

I just don't think, you know, I'd be

able to accomplish much from my own." I

go, "Okay, but you're doing something

you don't enjoy and you're exceeding at

it. You're excelling at it. You've hit

quota for 3 years in something you're

not passionate about. Where the hell

have you come to the conclusion that you

would not succeed following your

passion? How have you come to that

conclusion? That's

ridiculous.

Now, the second thing is,

although this has been disputed, I'm a

big believer and I'm sure you will, too,

in income satiety that after you earn a

certain amount of money, there's a

tapering off effect.

And it's very difficult to to say that

because straight away people's defenses

were, "It's okay for you because you've

you've gone past that that curve. I'm

still on the way up." And I say to them,

"You're probably working your career for

another 10 years because you think in 10

years' time you're going to have enough

money to eventually be happy with your

situation.

What if that bet is wrong? What if

you've just lost 10 years and you're not

happy?

What if

I think the two people there's two ways

of thinking.

Some people think it's an exponential

return where they'll go through misery

for long enough and then boom, they're

just happy. I said to them, "How do you

think millionaire CEOs wake up out of

bed like, 'Oh my god, life is so good.'"

It's the exact same way they wake up,

same as you, "Oh, I can't wait to have a

cup of coffee."

And then the other one

is more of a linear scale where they go,

"Okay,

30k, this much happiness. 40k, this

much. 50k, this much."

I say to them, "What if in 10 years'

time you're wrong?"

10 years is a lot more than 10 years

between 30 and 40. 10 years is a lot

more than 10 years between 20 and 30.

Imagine always thinking in the back of

your mind that that bet is going to be

wrong. And if you could fast forward to

10 years' time and see that you made the

wrong bet,

how would you feel? Now, think about

that before you make a decision." Yeah,

that's so true.

You know, if you I

linked up link up TV did publish a video

with me the other day and the type they

put the title as like, "Money won't make

you happy," which is not what I said,

but I understand why they're doing it.

We've got to get them clicks. And I did

see I saw the comments that said very

similar thing. It was like, "Oh, it's

easy for you to say." I'm like, "Well,

it would take someone that's made a

million to tell you that a million isn't

it. I couldn't have told you when I was

broke. Like, so and also I have no

incentive to to like put you off getting

rich. I'm just telling you I'm letting

you know that up here my happiness

didn't scale proportionate to my wealth.

Uh to a point. So, as you say, 75k per

household apparently it starts to

plateau. Just letting you know.

I always say to people, it's very

important they understand this.

All wins feel the same.

All wins. That's true. You don't get an

Uber surcharge on dopamine. The way our

brain chemistry works, you know, okay,

pleasure, serotonin, dopamine. You don't

get a 1.7 surcharge because you're

wealthy. So, you know, when you secure a

deal at a mid-level, high-level,

or you know, stock exchange level, it's

the same dopamine response and it's one

of those things where people go, "Oh my

god. Okay, yeah." And buying a car,

whether it's a Lamborghini or a brand

new Golf,

people cannot comprehend that that win

feels the same. And I love to tell them

I'm like, "No, it exactly is."

And when people set goals and I don't

like the conversation going into

fitness, but

they say, "I want to lose 10 kg." I'm

like, "Lose 1 kg, damn it." And then

celebrate that because that feeling of

stepping on the scale and accomplishing

something is the same at 1 kg as it is

at 10. You've just denied yourself a

long way before you're allowed to be

happy, which I think is what human

beings are really bad at. We won't let

ourselves celebrate wins at the level we

choose. Not only do they feel the same,

we get to determine where those wins

are.

Did you find that success wasn't what

you thought it would be? Well, this is

interesting because and people don't

believe me when I say this, I never

intended for this.

I never had dreams of

being what I would I would consider it

wealthy. And people will watch this and

they'll go, "No, no, no, the other guy's

wealthy." And I'll say, "No, no, no."

And from a subjective standpoint, I've

been able to buy my friends and my

family dinner without having to check my

bank account for like 4 years.

That's something that I didn't have for

the 20 years before it. That's wealthy,

right? And um it it's one of those

things that I never really wanted. If

I'm completely honest, my goal as a

personal trainer was 10 clients, three

sessions a week, pay me well.

I don't want 30 clients doing 30 hours.

I want 10 that see me three times a

week.

I'll be in London or I'll be in Sydney.

If they skip a session, it's 150 pounds

an hour. They won't mind cuz they're

good high-level clients.

That was it. That was the goal. What

happened?

I became

process orientated

probably

2015.

Where on social media

for the first time, investments don't

really interest me that much. And this

is another crazy thing people hate me

about. The social media investment did.

I will post something useful every day

here

for years, 10 years I thought. And in 10

years' time, hey guys, here's a book.

Ching. Make 20 grand, whatever.

And as I was posting into that email

marketing, I wrote email marketing

emails for 10 months before I made a

sale.

If you'd met me 9 months in, you would

have thought I was [ __ ] insane. Hey

James, what are you doing? I'm writing

emails. To who?

300 people. What about? My online PT

program. How many of them buying it? Oh,

none so far. Social media, 3 years in.

What are you doing? I'm posting every

day. How much money have you made? None.

People would have gone, "You're [ __ ]

mental."

Nowadays they go, "Okay, fair play." But

the the the momentum that I wanted, I

just wanted a life where I didn't have

to see clients, they'd seek me. I just

wanted a life where

I could post about a book and money

would appear in my account.

And after doing that for 3, 4 years,

I feel like the table's hot and I enjoy

being at the hot table. And rather than

looking at an exit strategy, I've

created a life that I love where

send a marketing email,

market my brand so I can get people to

email,

manage my academy,

you know, promote books and write them.

I have everything I need. I'm I'm like

on a wave that just never seems to end.

And that to me, I mean, Carol Dweck, one

of my favorite authors, becoming is

better than being.

I never wanted to be anything in

particular. So, there's no gold medal

depression at the end, right? Remember

that from your pod That's That's not

there for me because I've never set an

Everest peak. I've never set that. So,

this wave that's moving for me, I'm just

happy and do you know what?

I've I joke around with the time. I'm

like, "If this ends tomorrow, what a

ride." You know, and I don't think

enough people see it that way where,

you know,

I know you've had the pleasure of taking

friends on a private jet.

I did that once and I was like, "Wow."

If I if I die tomorrow, they'll be like,

"Rest in peace." They'll hopefully

they'll cry. "Hey, he took me on a jet

to Ibiza for for one night." And um I if

this all came crashing down, I'd be

happy with that because I never set it,

you know. There are so many boxers who

wanted to be heavyweight world champion

and they never made it. They've got to

go to the grave with that. I almost feel

like there's an element of being

unbeatable when I never set a precipice

to reach. Yeah.

I mean, Mo Gawdat, which is one of my

favorite podcast I've ever done here,

talks a lot about that that, you know,

unhappiness is in essence when our

expectations of how life is supposed to

be going go unmet.

And he's there they call him a happiness

expert, genius on the topic. And even

billionaires, they have expectations of

their steak tasting like

Japanese Wagyu perfection, 10 out of 10.

So, if it comes

and it's a nine out of 10 steak,

they are often furious. The [ __ ] is

this? Medium rare, I said, right?

Whereas you take that exact same steak,

you give it to, you know, someone else

that's on 18k a year, they'll be like

that cuz their expectations are lower

and they're they're all their standards

are low. They will be over the [ __ ]

moon. Same steak, two different people

with two different sets of expectations.

It's interesting as well where

next time you're at a table with people

that are very accomplished,

I notice that the people that have

experienced the steak that much, they're

so much more involved in conversations

because that's the only thing that can

interest them on that night. Yeah.

They've had 10 And this is something

that petrifies me where sometimes I feel

like I want to be successful, but not

too much. Yeah. Because once you've

eaten at every five-star restaurant in

London, like you say, your standards

have been set. Once you've dated 10

models, your standards have been set.

And

I almost do feel sorry for sometimes the

Bezos, the Bilzerians, you know. I

think, "Wow." I'm like,

"What What are you doing each day to

excite you?" And this is why,

not to hijack the conversation, but

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for me

is like

a nucleus of my focus, my attention,

what I care about on a daily basis

because

nothing can really impact that. And I

will never be able to get to a status

where

no matter no matter who I am, what I do,

or what I accomplish, when I step on the

mats, we get in belt order.

For years at my old gym, we all wiped

down the sweat after the mats. Like, you

know, black belts get a gear off and we

do it.

And it's so important to me that I know

that for the rest of my life when I can

still train,

I will never be too big for that.

And I think that there are so many

high-achievers that love that connection

to it. And

I feel sometimes for people that are

super successful, they're not getting

beatings enough. They're not For me, I

can I remember

uh did a business-to-business event.

I flexed my arms there. I was like, "Hey

guys." I was wearing a gold Rolex, which

I actually sold this morning. And I was

there I was like, "Hey, you know,

uh here's here's what it's like flying

first class. We're in an obese Oh, you

know, I was flexing on business talk.

Next day, went to compete, lost in the

first round.

You know, turned up. I was like, "Wow."

It's like, "Thank you for that. Thank

you. My weekend I would have been taken

off as far as you go if it wasn't for

getting beaten up on the Sunday." Do you

know what? So so many people have told

me about

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And the way they

speak about it isn't like it's a sport

or a martial art. It's more like a

like a philosophy for life almost. It

teaches you life lessons. And so many

people have told me that in a row that I

thought, you know, I [ __ ] need to

give this a shot. And I really enjoyed

it even though it was one a one-on-one

session and I was in Indonesia

for 2 hours. I was like, "I need to do

this more often." You know, like

marketing, social media, email

marketing, you are going to be awful for

the first 6 months. You are.

But if people persevere through that,

and again, I remember where I learned a

lot of my business now. So, I was I was

in Victoria. I was in a DoubleTree

Hilton. I was in a room with 200

personal trainers. We all learned the

same thing that day and I remember the

faces of the people in there and I never

saw them again. I've never seen them on

socials. I've never seen them on

Instagram, on TikTok, anywhere like

that.

And I think to myself, we all learned

the same thing, just not all of us stuck

with it through the the the painful

times where in email marketing you you

spend 6 months and you don't make money.

In Jiu-Jitsu you spend 6 months and you

don't beat anyone. Hm.

You have to say to yourself, "Right, I'm

happy to endure this because I know come

the other side I can reap the rewards."

Hm. And

it's very difficult in this day and age

to say to someone, "Let's do We're going

to get you to do something where you

physically

are going to be powerless for 6 months."

It doesn't sell well, that narrative.

But then when you get when you get

through it, it's similar to people I I

love the email marketing analogy. Now,

so many people in the new rich can send

an email and that's their day's work

done cuz they persevered. They built the

relationship. They managed to cultivate

an audience who are ready for it. Same

with Jiu-Jitsu.

If people just commit to it, and like

you say, when people talk about it,

you're like, "This isn't a coincidence."

It

I drink less. I party less. I

you know, have no ambitions of teaching

my future kids. I have ambitions of

teaching white belts. I'm going to go

back to Sydney. I'll say to my gym,

"Hey, that no one wants the fundamentals

class." So, I'll have them. I'll have

them. Same with PT world. I never wanted

to train athletes. I like just first

time

Sharon

who is a housewife and she has to make

sure the kids are at school on time.

Teach her to deadlift. I was like,

"That's what brings me pleasure." And I

think that I'll really enjoy teaching

the white belts. And for so many people,

they have so much that they are kind of

working for in life, but nothing that's

such a slow, gradual progression like a

martial art in the middle.

You've highlighted there one of the

things that evidently made you

successful was that commitment to

consistency. And like, I mean, you would

you would have seen it in your social

channels because every successful person

I've seen and I speak to says the same

thing. First couple of years [ __ ] all,

then even I mean that's the laws of

compounding. It goes slow then it goes

really fast. You would have seen that.

So, that's clearly one of the things.

But, what else made you and because

there's a lot of people on Instagram

giving advice and there's a lot of

fitness people and whatever else. Why

you

of all of them?

It's interesting where I think that

having a conversation with me now you'd

probably assume or you'd come to the

conclusion I'm different to my socials.

I've always seen social media as a

crowded room where, you know, a podcast

is where we sit together driving

somewhere for 3 hours. Let's talk. Let's

relax. Let the conversation wonder. But,

on Instagram

and Tik Tok whatever I have 10 seconds

to capture your attention. And I love

the idea of polarizing people.

I said in my first book that

imagine you invite me to a barbecue in

Shoreditch and someone talks about

Formula 1 and I go, "I [ __ ] hate

Formula 1." Someone goes, "What?" I go,

"Look, I just doesn't interest me." And

someone's like, "You bought him the

first time and he's [ __ ] on Formula

1."

10 people at the barbecue, three of them

be like, "Do you know what? I also agree

with you. I think it's shit." And

they'll remember me for saying something

controversial rather than, "Oh, yeah,

it's good, isn't it? Oh, Lewis Hamilton,

yeah, so you know." So many people want

to get in line with an opinion that

they're no longer remembered. So, I took

it upon myself and it was almost by

accident. I do my lives every day. I do

videos.

Then something would piss me off. And

I'm not a violent person, so I just

channel it into a video. And it would

get a lot more likes and shares and I

was like, "Hold on, what's going on

here?" So, again I would post 10 videos

and it would be the one where I was a

bit more aggressive. And over time I

learned that there were certain things

people wanted in a certain way.

And it wasn't the six-packs, the chicken

and broccoli, the food prep. It was

being passionate without compromise

about different topics. And

I do swear as a person. I am crass. I am

vulgar and I do make very inappropriate

analogies for things.

I put that out.

Like I said, I only ever wanted 10

clients.

Only ever wanted 10 clients.

So, if half the people that see a video

hate me for it, that's fine because as

long as the other half is 10 people that

would do business with me, again I'm

invincible. And I've always had that

mentality that

I only need 10 people like me to make a

living. And if I do those 30 hours at

150 pounds an hour, 6 hours between 6:00

a.m. and 2:00 p.m.

I can live a dream life and be wealthy

even though it's barely breaking 100 to

200k a year.

As long as I can buy dinner for my

friends and family, I can be wealthy

with 10 people. And people

completely misconstrue social media for

that. They go, "I need everyone to like

me. I need a million people to like me."

You know, I first flew first class with

28,000 followers and you don't need that

many people to like you to do well. And

I wish I wish people could understand

that because

social media's become a popularity

contest. It's not This is not a

popularity contest. This is

a means of you getting people over the

line to like you enough to do business

with you.

It's so true. I I I did a lot of talking

on stage where I was looking at people

like Piers Morgan and Kanye West and

Katie Hopkins. And what what you've

described there is what I've always said

which is you don't have to like these

people, but the conversation orbits

around them. Now, your barbecue analogy

there

by you saying all the Formula Formula 1

is [ __ ] everyone then

comes over to you and the conversation

is centers around James's opinion and

that brings attention to you. I said to

my friends last night cuz I did a tweet

and it's got 20,000 likes and it's like

going [ __ ] crazy and everyone's

talking about it. I said, "Listen,

you're not going to be able to build a

personal brand in 2022 if you're not I

said this on my friend to my friends

last night in a WhatsApp group. If

you're not prepared for someone to call

you a

[ __ ]

if you're not if you're not willing to

accept someone calling you a see see you

and T, it's going to be incredibly hard

to get um the attention you need for the

algorithms to turn in your favor. And

that means in your case and as I've seen

from many just being yourself. And but

there's a cost. There is, but you can be

selective with this as well. So, uh if I

have an argument against the keto diet

Yeah. I don't advocate the keto diet.

So, if a load of people that are zealots

in the realm of the keto diet hate me,

that's fine. I'm starting fire on

someone else's property. Then, you know,

I I support vegan from an ethical

standpoint, but I don't like the

self-righteous

uh you know, sanctimonious element of

veganism. It's been hijacked. A bit like

I've often said like feminism, what a

fantastic cause hijacked by a few to

give it a bad sometimes bad rap.

Veganism's the same. But, then I can

have a little bit of a a cheap shot and

joke, you know, satire content with a

vegan and suddenly all the vegans are up

in arms. Sharing this this is

unacceptable. Again, I've started fire

on someone else's property and the

people you've cultivated to like you go,

"Oh, that's actually really funny." Or,

you know, so

you can be very selective with who you

pick arguments with. I did one about

bodybuilding where

I said, "Hey, if you want to

you know, diet down for 6 months to show

off your insecurities versus someone

else's, cover yourself in fake tan and

call it a sport, you do you, right?" The

bodybuilder community went mental and

everyone was like, "Is this guy stupid?

He's a personal trainer." I don't coach

bodybuilders.

Yet, thousands of them shared my post.

My following went up. And little did

they realize it was their followers that

maybe invested in them, but don't agree

with their values. Mhm. And then hold

on. I'm supposed to hate this guy, but I

agree with him.

And now their eyes are on me, not

someone else.

Being selectively hated is brilliant and

now I even look to the comment section

for new content. Someone goes, "James,

well, when you going to start training

chest?" I'm like, "Hey, man, when you

going to start, you know, stop going on

people's profiles you don't follow to

make content." You know, there are so

many like arguments now that I can see

from the negative comments that I can

then turn into content.

Mhm. So,

again, it's one of those things where

people need to appreciate there's a

power in being disliked and

if I turn up

to, you know, an event that's supposed

to be fully booked and it's not got bums

in every seat, I might go, "Ah, I might

need to, you know, rein it in and really

reconsider what I do for a living." as

long as

the talks I do have people in them, as

long as I'm still getting support for

what I'm doing, I feel like I must be

tiptoeing the line enough like I say,

it's it's passion without compromise.

I'm going to say what I feel

and I don't care. I think it was Seneca,

if you don't wish to be criticized, do

nothing, say nothing, be nothing.

And, you know, that's how I feel. And

are you being yourself or are you

playing a character?

It's always caffeinated James, you know.

Me when I've had three coffees, that's

who people get.

Behind the scenes I'm a bit more

relaxed. I'm quite happy to disagree

with people because there isn't a an

interest in it for me. Someone walks

past me in the street saying I love

Formula 1. I'm like, "Hey, mate, Come

back here. You're You're fat and I hate

Formula 1. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um and

the same again where

you know, I'm I'm not

argumentative away from social media. If

I see people, you know, chatting hate

about me, I don't get involved in it.

I'm not really that that person. Um What

about Joe Wicks? What about that beef?

Do you know what? Stirred Stirred the

pot there a little bit. You said some

comments to him about

um you said there's some dishonesty

there. Um

regarding what he does. So,

this is something where I haven't gone

back on my word, but that 6 months where

I took the podcast I did about him

offline,

not I just I felt like I'd been a bit

harsh, you know. At the time I got

10,000 followers. I got my first taste

of growth on social media. And like

beefing rappers, you need an arch enemy,

you know, you need someone to be able to

go at so you can kind of go back and

forth. I actually emailed Joe about 4

years ago, 5 years, 7 years ago.

And um I emailed him and I I found out

that he'd seen one of my videos.

And I thought, "Oh, [ __ ] I never

expected him to see it ever." I was

posting content. I was like, "Oh my god,

I might have hurt someone's feelings."

So, I emailed him.

I said, "Hey, Joe, just to let you know,

one, I will be coming for you a bit, but

two, you never get put down by people

above you."

That's what I said. And he emailed me

back

ages ago and I continued the endeavor

and there was two things that

Do you know what? Coming back, I I think

he said something along the lines of he

hadn't had an email like that before. It

didn't stop me though. So, there were a

few things that

frustrated me.

One,

I don't like people blanket prescribing

solutions to people. I don't. And

there's I don't like anyone that

presents a solution without education.

You know, the teach a man to fish

Mhm.

analogy. So, I had clients that were

paying me, but also bought his plan. So,

straight away there was a bit of a

conflict and I remember looking through

the supplements that

and I was like, "Branch chain amino

acids, leucine." I was like, "Well, I

don't know why you're popping these

leucine pills for my protein. They're

massive."

Like a pelican trying to swallow each

one. I was like, "Unless you're

vegetarian or vegan, you don't really

need this." Then the branch chain amino

acids and I was like,

"You don't really need to be consuming

another six pills with this." And then

I was like, "From an ethical standpoint,

I don't These people are very over

supplemented to jump around their front

room."

Then there was the one-size-fits-all

plan. One of my clients was a type 1

diabetic who got sent it and I was like,

"Do you need that? You know, this is

not, you know, specialized for you."

And the amount of volume that was being

given to people is it's very easy to

make people tired. This is what

frustrates me as a trainer. I actually

want to stimulate people in the gym, get

them moving. And if there was ever a

boundary of the maximum they could do, I

want to come under that every day. Lot

of people are stressed, underslept,

undernourished. Smashing people in their

front room every day I don't think is

the solution out of this. So, I picked

some holes in the programming, picked

some holes in

uh you know, the supplement issue there,

but the main problem is this.

People would have gone there, seen him

on TV, GMTV, seen the book selling and

this is my savior.

And when they fail the plan or don't

finish it, which I think a lot of people

do, I think, I'm not saying that

objectively, they blame themselves. And

this is what kills me.

So many people, maybe hundreds of

thousands of people, would have done a

one-size-fits-all plan, all doing the

same exercise regime. I could not

sustain hit training at 32 every day in

my front room. It would break me.

When they do eventually fall off that

and the meal plan, cooking everything

from scratch, which you can't I mean,

we're we're sitting next to Huel. That's

a market that's come off the back of

people not wanting to cook from scratch.

When they fail that plan, they're going

to blame themselves. And the voices in

their head are going to say, "I didn't

want it enough. I'm not motivated. I'm

not committed. I'm not cut out for

this." And you hear my voice now, this

is something I'm passionate about.

It breaks me to think of the tens of

thousands of people who gave up on their

ambitions because they went the wrong

way for advice.

If people love Huel and they love

cooking from scratch, this guy's

probably the guy for you. Join his plan

or mine.

But,

it almost felt like physics. So many

people went to something, it created

gravity that other people went. And

it's my

feeling that that let a lot of people

down. And if it didn't, I wouldn't have

experienced so much growth from pointing

out the inadequacies.

If people were truly happy, I would have

been shut the hell up then, and I would

have just gone away and not existed on

social media. So, what's your plan? How

does it differ?

Imagine uh we have you, the consumer.

Mhm. So, you're selling I'm selling you,

the consumer. The principle of fat loss

is a calorie deficit. Yeah. Fact that we

need to create an energy deficit. Um

Just for anybody that doesn't

understand, that means

burning more calories than you're

consuming.

And it doesn't make it a simple science,

but, you know, let's just say to people,

like money in the bank analogy, if you

earn too much than you spend, you're

going to accrue money in the bank. That

is what fat is. It's not from toxins,

it's not from, you know, whatever you're

led to believe.

Now, everything in between those two,

how it works in the person, is a method.

You know, keto, 5:2, intermittent

fasting, all of these are methods that

dress up the principle for the consumer.

It's almost packaging something for the

person.

With me, rather than giving them the

method first, I put them straight in bed

with the principle. And I say, "Look,

this is how many calories I think you

burn on a daily basis.

I think you should try eating 15% less

than that. Here's a protein target, go

away. If it works, we've hit it. If it

doesn't, we're still too high. If you

gain weight, you know, we've really

missed the mark here.

This is how it works.

Really educate people to all the things

they need to go. Like a driving

instructor, I should not exist in your

life in 6 months, apart from the guy

that taught you to drive. Mhm.

Why is it so acceptable for people to

invest money into fitness professionals

and them still be there 3 years later?

Mhm. The PT model is almost flawed in

some respects. If you do your job well

enough,

your client leaves.

So,

for me, even when my clients that I had

face-to-face for years, I was in gym for

4 years,

I said, "Look, you're going to pay me

more than the rate that you pay anyone

else, but in 3 months' time, if you

can't do this on your own, I'll give you

your money back." Because I should be

people arrive at fitness like getting in

the car for the first time. They're

like, "What the hell is this third

pedal?" That's a clutch. A clutch, Dad?

What the hell is a clutch? I remember

learning to drive. I thought there was

go and stop.

And rather than just getting in the car

and driving, I need to explain to them

we need this to change gears. The

indicator must be done before we start

to brake. This is your mirrors.

And the fitness world doesn't have that

anymore. There needs to be some

ruthlessness with this where I say to

people, "Look,

this is the education you need. You need

to learn how to do this yourself." It's

one of those things where I have a big

problem with people

monetizing and not giving that solution.

You know,

I think it's so important that we teach

people these fundamentally so they

understand. And I'm not an extremist.

You look at me now, I'm, you know,

just before downstairs,

we were talking before the podcast,

about have you been on the front cover

of Men's Health? I was like, "No, no,

no, I don't agree with that.

I don't think these are physiques that

are obtainable to most men in our

country. I think, you know, that's like

saying, 'Hey, you can't be happy to earn

quarter of a million pound.'

Yes, that's great. But most men won't

get there. So, how about we set the goal

something more realistic? Ant Middleton,

another one of your guests, friend of

mine,

he got criticized for not being lean

enough for the Men's Health cover. We've

got a guy climbing to Mount Everest. You

know, like, "Oh, sorry, mate, you're not

lean enough. You haven't shaved your

chest more recently enough." So, it's

one of those things where

I think there's a lot of a lot of work

to be done with not only teaching people

how things work, but also in setting the

the finish line. So, from

entrepreneurship, you The New Rich, I

think is great because we have such

subjectivity between how much money your

business can make. But once you get the

freedom to work remote and live your

life, well done, you've done it. And I

think that if someone, especially men,

can get to the point where they're happy

to go for a jog topless, you've done it.

They don't have to be abs there. If you

can go for a jog topless or you can, you

know, wear a pair of Speedos on holiday,

well done, mate, you've done it. And I

think we need to have that approach with

fitness.

I've had so many people tag me on

Instagram, even on Telegram and in my

Twitter DMs,

in a picture of them starting their Huel

journey. And it's one of the most

amazing things in my life that I get to

do a podcast, which of course needs

money to to to fuel, and I have a

sponsor like Huel, who I genuinely

believe is going to help every single

person

who starts their Huel journey change

their life. Because this podcast, the

central intention of this podcast, is to

help people live a better lives. And we

get to sit here, and I get to promote to

you a product which has not only helped

me change my life, but it's going to

help millions of people and is helping

millions of people live a nutritionally

complete life. It's so it's such an

incredible product. And for me, the

reason why it's incredible is because it

gives me my protein, it gives me my

vitamins, minerals. It's plant-based,

it's low in sugar, gluten-free. It has

all of that in a small drink that tastes

good. There are other products, there's

foods, there's the hot and savory

collection, many other things, but for

me, this ready-to-drink is the absolute

savior of my diet throughout the week

where I'm moving at such pace.

Look, I don't want to labor the point,

but if you haven't tried Huel, give it a

try. And if you do, tag me. Instagram,

wherever you try it, give me a tag.

Anyway,

back to the podcast.

You're in the business of helping people

change their lives. Hopefully, that's I

guess that's I'm guessing that's part of

the goal is to help them become a better

version of themselves. And a lot of

people listening to this will have a

friend or they'll have a I don't know, a

family member or someone

that they they want to help change their

life. What have you learned about those

that actually do

take the steps, commit, change their

lives, and those that just kind of say

it?

And how do you do you are you able to

identify them super early and say this

person's got no chance? Is there like a

warning sign where you go this this

person's just all talk? And do you give

up at some point on people? Uh

face-to-face, I had to, because there

was a finite amount of energy in which I

could give people. And I had to sack

clients. And I was sorry, someone could

take your slot, pay me the same amount

of money, but I could make progress with

them. And sometimes they come back a

different person. The main thing I

learned,

I wrote the first book, Not a Diet Book,

and then I realized it was a precursor.

My theory is that, you know, in my

videos, in my content, I say fat people,

I say obese, and I use the C U N T word

openly.

But,

I don't think people are gluttonous and

greedy. I think that, yeah, from an

evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense

that if we're surrounded by copious

amounts of hedonic food, that we should

be consuming it because we have done for

hundreds of thousands of years, but

people don't want to be this way.

So, I came to realize that so many

people, before we look at calorie

deficit, we need to look at other

pressing issues.

Do you like your work life? Do you like

your relationships? Because

if you come home from a work you're not

passionate about, from a job you're not

passionate about, and you walk straight

in through the door to a relationship

you're not passionate about,

me telling you to eat less means doing

less of the only thing you might enjoy

every day.

So, there's a big life constructionist

issue that comes up. And actually, I

find as a PT, I was asking this. I was

like, "You're always You're always

moaning about your boyfriend. Why

Why don't you break up?" "Oh, we've been

together 5 years." And since now I now

know that's the sunk cost fallacy, where

they're making a a decision based off

the previous investment, not the actual

reason if they want to be in a

relationship. So, with the second book,

I was like, "Well, before we even get

into this commitment, wanting it, do I

give up on this person?" I'm like,

"Right, we've got Steve, repetitive

yo-yo dieter,

sticks to the deficit 3 weeks, then he

falls off." I go, "Steve, mate, do you

like your job? You know, do you like

it?"

"No, well, I've been there 8 years." "Do

you like your relationship, Steve?" "Oh,

no, I'm you know, I'm a mister and I'm a

head and all the other way around."

Sabrina's like, "My boyfriend's a

wanker." Whatever it is.

And I've come to realize that if we can

help change those things in those

people's lives, suddenly everything else

seems a lot

lot easier. There's a lot less

boundaries, a lot less effort. So, in a

cheesy way,

we almost need to address the

foundations that people are building on.

Because

if you haven't got this, and and again,

imagine you're in a job you hate on 50K,

and you take a pay cut and start a

venture with your best mate for 30K,

you're going to have less pleasure in

your life, less expensive trainers, less

private jets, whatever.

But suddenly you have a job you enjoy.

And if you're getting enough

satisfaction between 7:00 when you wake

up and 4:00 when you come home, you

won't need to get it from food.

And then they drop a bit of weight, and

then they start feeling better, and then

they go, "Oh, you know what? I could do

with a bit of muscle on this arm." So,

then they start going to the gym, and

then they make friends there, and

so, this whole conversation surrounding,

you know, motivation,

I don't think it's a positive charged

motivation. I think that too many people

are carrying a negatively charged career

and a negatively charged relationship

status. So, you view like a

poor relationship with your diet or food

as more of a symptom of

negativity or lack of fulfillment or

lack lack of satisfaction in other areas

of your life. Cuz I've actually been

there. When I worked in uh so, I worked

in sales, and I hate phone calls. So, it

was the wrong job for me. I don't Even

now, people call me, I'm like, "What do

you want?" They're like, "What do you

mean?

Are you in Are you all right?" "I'm fine

till you called me." So, um and I used

to get to work and I used have peanut

butter and Nutella sandwiches. Two

slices of toast, I wasn't even hungry.

Peanut butter on one, Nutella on the

other, put them together. I'm having a

500 calorie just a bit of toast just to

kill time from my mundane existence in

my office. Again, there are there are so

many people doing this and in my time in

corporate, I realized

people are doing the absolute bare

minimum to get by. And I always say to

people, the second you join a a big

corporate business, they're going to pay

you the least amount of money for the

most amount of your life.

And if you don't construct how you want

your life to look, they're going to do

it.

Mhm. And a lot of people don't like how

that construction looks like. And then

they wonder why they're feeling malaise

or, you know, depressed or disheartened.

And it's because you let someone else

build your life for you. And it's very

important for people to un-attach from

that. And then

if they can,

and this is another thing where

I'm sure you you'll be able to relate to

this. Some of the best things that have

ever happened in my life have come off

the back of opportunities not going my

way. And my back's been against the

wall.

Um

I'll probably get shot saying this.

Doing an event uh later on this year at

Sydney Opera House, which is mad,

massive, which I'm

for me is

an incredible incredible feat because 4

years ago, I remember being so skint in

Sydney, living in a hostel, that I went

to Opera Bar to apply for a job behind

the bar. And they said you have to have

a qualification to serve alcohol. I was

like, "I'm not doing this." I remember

reading uh Tim Ferriss's Tools of the

Titans on the ferry back to where I

lived. And it goes, "If someone put a

gun to your head, would you work

harder?" I was like, "Oh, shit."

Yeah, I would. I would call up all my

existing clients. I'd get referrals.

Then I'd call those referrals and I'd

close them for sales. I'd give them

money-back guarantees. I would quite

literally just do a lot more.

And then I came to realize, okay, I'm

going to go home and do that. And within

5 months, I joined Fitness First and

then bought my way out of it. And

it's crazy that people are so afraid of

being in this position where they leave

a career they're unfulfilled with that

they're going to be stuck and lost. But

anything, when your back's against the

wall, you find another version of

yourself that works harder and does more

and puts himself into uncomfortable

situations.

And my favorite thing to say to someone

is like,

"How many times have you let yourself

down, really, in your life? How many

times have you really woken up and gone,

'Oh, I've really let myself down.'" And

even if you have,

you got out of it. And most people, they

haven't. I go, "Why the hell do you

think you're going to let yourself down

now? Where's that come from? Where's

that [ __ ] assumption come from?"

Probably the people you hang around

with. Probably the the naysayers in your

life that may be saying it because they

want to protect you.

And

for so many people in that kind of world

of

just not fulfillment. And I always say,

again,

please do not mistake

passion with being good at something.

Cuz if I get you to do anything for 3

years, you're going to be good at it.

Don't call that passion. You do

recruitment for 3 years and you can

close people. Oh, yeah, straight yeah,

if it's 200, I'll get him top four,

whatever. Doesn't mean you're passionate

about it, means you're good at it. And

people really need to distinguish that.

There's going to be a ton of people

listening to this now that are in that

situation. They're in a they're on their

way to a job this morning, you know,

that they don't particularly like. And

but they're they're going to say, you

know, James, I've got a mortgage to pay

and I've got a couple of kids. You know,

you'll get this a lot of times cuz I get

it I get every day. Got a couple of kids

and it's easy for you guys to say cuz

you're you know, you're single and

you've got all this money now, but I

can't just leave this call center,

James. I've got Timmy that needs to go

to school and I need to you know, buy

his books for his book bag. And what do

you say to those people that are feeling

like they've they've kind of built a

wall too big to climb over? It's a very

difficult one. And again, I can never

say "Oh, just do this." Because when I'm

talking now, I'm talking to James of 22.

Similarly to how you would talk to

yourself at 18. Mhm.

I can't talk to every age group

listening to this podcast, so I'll try

to talk to the one I know best. Yeah.

But there's two kind of ways out.

There's one where some people do need to

make a risk because

they may see no options now, but where

are they going to be in 5 years? A lot

of the time, things get worse with time,

not better. In these situations,

unfulfillment,

passionless existence, all of these

things get worse. If your relationship

is on the rocks, you don't just give it

4 years. Something needs to be done.

Sometimes you do need to rip the cord.

But to people who are genuinely past it,

because people did read my second book

and go, "I just can't do this."

I said to them, "Well, okay,

make sure your kids know this.

Make sure if there's one valiant thing

you do, it's fall on the sword and say,

'Right, for me, I will sit out the next

10 years, but those kids, every time I

talk to them, every day they're at the

dinner table, every step they make in

life, instill that into them.'

My dad said to me like my whole life,

he's just always said, "You're a long

time dead." He always just drilled it

into me my whole life. Every time I've

wanted to do something, it's like,

"Yeah, you're going to be a long time

dead, son." And

there's no it helps me understand there

is no time to to dwell, to wait, to see

things out. And I think that again,

that's one of the things that people

don't think about enough.

You know, we're all slowly dying. Such a

weird thing to think about. People go,

"Oh, I'll just give it a few more

years."

You don't have that. Time isn't on our

side. Our existence as a human being is

if the universe could talk, it would

laugh at the amount of time we have to

live.

And some people, again,

what's the worst that could truly

happen? You've got a mortgage cool.

Have you got enough to survive 2 months?

Mhm. 2 months. And if you can't give

everything to something for 2 months,

maybe don't do it at all.

Peo- personal trainers as well, they

they say this all the time at my

business talks.

Oh, you know, they're doing minimum wage

hours, 6, 7 pounds an hour, wiping down

machines between trying to run a

legitimate business and they're afraid

to go alone.

I go, "If I gave you 7 pounds for that

hour and put you on a gym floor,

and gun to the head mentality, you need

to make a business or you're going to

wipe down machines for your whole life?"

Of course they're going to do it. The

the intensity, the audacity, everything

they could give to people is going to be

incredible. I think it's baffling that

people write themselves off before they

even make the decision. And in some

respects,

them going, "I've got kids. I've got a

mortgage." I appreciate all of those

things, but is this a [ __ ] hurdle

you're putting in front of making change

in your life? I could be wrong. I don't

know, but it could be.

They need to ask themselves that. I

can't ask them that.

One of the things you said that was

really interesting, you said, "I don't

feel deserving of my success." And I've

I've heard you talk a little bit about

imposter syndrome. Do you suffer with

imposter syndrome?

I kind of back out of it very quickly

every time I I feel the emotion.

Everything to me is just weird. It's

just weird. People want a selfie, I'm

like, "Yeah." I'm like, "This is a weird

part of my day. Let's embrace it." This

is something that up until 27, no one

ever stopped me for a photo or

acknowledged my work. 32 now, I give a

take, 15% of my life. So, for 85% of my

life, it never happened. So, everything

to me is just, you know, I I joke around

at the speaking events. I go, "Hey, I'm

going to get found out soon. Until then,

I'm going to milk this for everything I

can."

I do I do feel it a lot. It's a strange

one, especially at home. Like uh

I go out with my mom and dad,

someone will say, "Oh, James, can I get

a picture?" I I now chaperone my dad

when he goes into London. We went to

Twickenham a few weeks ago. And I don't

particularly like going to watch

sporting events anymore. It's cold. You

know, the trains are so crammed, all of

this. But if my dad's going, I'm like,

"I'll I'll come with you. I'll make sure

no one barges into you." Especially when

people are exiting Twickenham, I'm like,

"Fuck off." And um Purple belt. Yeah,

yeah. Watch out, mate. Going. And um

even I see it in my dad's face. He's

like he's like, but he he doesn't My

parents don't have social media. They

don't they don't exist in that world,

but I can tell they're kind of proud of

it. And I was like, "Do you know what?

If if my parents are proud of this

weirdness, I'll embrace it." And I was

happy to embrace it. But yeah, it's it's

just incredibly strange. It's again why

I need someone else to negotiate all

rates and what I get paid and speaking

appearances because

whenever even getting the invite for

this podcast, I was like, "Fuck, you

know." I was like, "I hope I can keep up

the conversation for an hour." It's I

have the biggest fear whenever I have

guests on my podcast. I'm like, "What if

I run out of things to ask after half an

hour?" Where does that come from? That's

what if like that almost self-doubt and

inse- almost insecurity.

I think that a lot of my

confidence, not not all of it,

but a

big chunk of it is a facade, an

essential facade. I need to play the

character. Confidence to me isn't about

who you are, it's about who you need to

be. It's about how how I need to talk in

this interview or how I need to present

myself, the things I need to get

passionate about.

In some respects, when that fades,

you know, I'm just a PT on a gym floor

in Bracknell. I worked on a you know, a

trading estate for 3, 4 years. And the

the craziest thing is, I was happy. I

was happy then. I wouldn't You could

meet me 4, 5 years ago. Hey, James, man,

how's your life? I wouldn't know, you

know. [ __ ] hell, I could do with a

bit more money. You know, I could do

with, you know, an expensive watch. It's

never like that. I used to ridicule my

clients for flying business and buying

Rolexes. I was like, "What a waste of

money." Now to my other friends, I'm

like, "You should really try business."

And um

yeah, I've I've definitely had a

complete flip on that. I don't know

where it comes from, to be fair. But to

be

be honest, it's probably a fam- I spend

a lot of time with my family and my

friends. I don't really have any mega

successful influencer friends.

Everyone's pretty grounded and we all

think that we're getting away with

murder charging money for things. So, I

think it probably comes from that.

Before what you said as well, you spent

the first

at least 15 years of your life being

uh indirectly told that you shouldn't

aim so high and not much is going to

happen in your life, right? It was when

I first became a PT that this changed,

where I remember listening to podcasts,

reading books, studying topics. And one

day it clicked. I was like,

"I'm never going to be in the best

shape. Never going to be the most

muscular. Never going to be the most

experienced." And I was like, "I could

be a good communicator." Because these

podcasts I'm listening to are dull as

[ __ ] I listened to a 56-minute podcast

on caffeine.

I managed to turn it into an academy

module that was 2 and 1/2 minutes,

right? That's all they needed and I

thought

there's a gap in the market here and it

becomes a snowballing effect where maybe

even the same with yourself where at the

beginning you were like,

I understand the operational part of the

business. I understand investorship.

Then when you see the returns on your

efforts, you're like, "Ooh, I'm actually

quite good at this." And you get all

these confirmations that occur along the

way. And I think it's more that if I'm

honest. I still struggle to communicate

with myself that I'm an authority on

things. I actually need external

validations still quite a lot. Which

I've never really told anyone before.

We've spoken about quite a few things

today that I've never really spoken

about. And

even

there are always little battles that can

be won and lost. And some days I'm like,

I do lose belief in

who I need to be.

And you know what? Actually, content

creation for me really helps me with

that. Because whenever I'm having a day

where I'm like,

"Fuck, do I really know what I'm talking

about?" I will just express something I

feel wholeheartedly about and see how it

goes. And when it [ __ ] blows up, I

go, "Ooh, maybe I do know what I'm on

about. Carry on." That's a dangerous

game to play because on the other end,

if your if external validation is moving

you up, it's like impossible for it not

to move you the other way. So if someone

DMs you and goes, "You are you You don't

know what the [ __ ] you're talking about.

Vegans are, you know, this and keto A

keto vegan is the best way to be."

Surely that moves you too, no? It does.

And sometimes if I if I do get a really,

you know, harsh criticism, I don't take

it from an emotional level. I take it

from an objective level. I I actually do

this a lot. If someone criticizes me on

something, I go,

"Before I think he's a [ __ ] he

could be right." So I give him the

benefit of the doubt and I'll go to

someone smarter than me. I'm like, "Just

to double-check

I'm right on this topic." And I think

that's a good way to protect myself from

it.

Every time someone says, "You're wrong

on this subject." I don't go, "Hey, [ __ ]

you. I've got more followers than you.

I'm like, oh, [ __ ] I better go away and

research this." And I actually use the

little troll attacks sometimes to

reconfirm my position on something.

If someone goes, you know, "You swear

too much in your content."

I'm like, I'll I'll reflect on it.

Am I swearing too much?

Is this how I got here? Dangerous games

to play that, like It is. We all play

it. I'm not I'm not pretending. I'm just

playing devil's advocate to ask you

questions here, but that

Yeah, if you if you're relying on other

people to validate you, then

their words can also invalidate you,

theoretically.

So, do you struggle with that, being

Then then I would just remove myself

from the situation on the social media

side of things. I'd be like, "Okay." I'd

sit with my thoughts. And again, you

know what? I remember you saying this

word just before we went live.

Psychedelics really helped me with this.

But psychedelics also

got in my head

a couple times.

For people that don't know too much

about psychedelics, I've always said to

people,

it's like therapy with yourself.

You're not always the the guy that holds

all the answers, but you're at least the

person that has the questions.

I remember doing a magic mushroom trip.

And one of the questions I was posed

with was, "Do people like you for who

you are or what you do?"

I was like, "Ooh, I'm going to need a

few weeks." How can I I'm going to need

a bit of time for this because

I was like, "How many of my followers

actually know who I am?"

It's my first defense when someone

criticizes me. I'm like, "You don't know

me."

I'm like, "Ooh, if they don't know me,

what do they like me for?"

I was like, "Fuck."

I'm still figuring it out.

So I think that there's definitely a lot

of

conversations and internal dialogues

in which that I'm still breaking down.

And that's another thing that people

can't understand about psychedelics.

Some of the

things you're posed with and questioned

with can take months, sometimes years to

unravel. Mhm.

It's one of the things with building an

identity, isn't it? You then it's easy

to to start to believe you you are your

identity. And that's not always a

helpful thing cuz it can take you

further and further away from who you

actually are. And I think all the the

mental health research is clear that

when we abandon ourselves because we

built up a persona, then it can be very

costly for the person we truly are. And

in I actually think that continual

faking, from what I've learned from my

guests is is really, really harmful. So

it must be somewhat difficult, right?

Like creating the separation cuz you are

not The guy that I've met today is not

the guy that I've seen on Instagram

telling me that I'm a fat prick. Like

it's not These aren't the same joking

These aren't the same individuals. So

how do you kind of disassociate from

that? I think Jim Carrey said something

about taking the mask off. Mhm. He goes,

"Depression is when you have to take the

mask off and say I don't want to do this

anymore."

And for me, very fortunately, it's 3

minutes a day on this person. It's not

hours on TV. It's not in front of loads

of people. But then sometimes what I do

like is

I purposely I call

I call it a cuntsive.

I do a post

that catches all the [ __ ] in the sieve.

And I sometimes purposely, as hard as I

can, try and get people to unfollow me.

With I just say something briefly

honest. I go in as hard as I can with

the objective of losing a few thousand

followers. Cuz then I can kind of

tighten the the the area, the remit of

people which I talk to.

And I remember in middle of summer, I

was like, "This is shit." Just honestly,

I was like,

"We're kind of out of lockdown, but

we're not. Still got to do tests to go

travel. We're pretending it's the new

normal, but it's not the new normal."

And I I just expressed my emotions

without the facade.

And no one barely even noticed. And I

was like, "That's That's good. That

means there's not this big transient

period between I am just

in

It's not a different person. It's more

enthusiasm. Which I think again is a

very important thing. Because

like

part I always say that my talks are

between a TED Talk and stand-up. I need

to ensure that I can tiptoe the line of

retaining the audience, keeping them in,

entertaining the audience at the same

time. So there is a requirement. Jimmy

Carr, when you met him, you wouldn't If

you listened to that podcast the first

half hour, you wouldn't go, "Oh, he's a

funny fucker." You'd go, "Hey, this is a

very intelligent person."

So I completely appreciate where he

comes from as well. For me, I don't

think there's too much separation. I

think you wouldn't sit with me now and

go,

"That's a completely different person."

You would go, "Okay, this isn't

Instagram James." Yeah, it's a

caffeinated, yeah. Um you said the the

word depression there. One of the things

you write about in your book is anxiety

as well. And your own experience with

anxiety. Tell me about that. That's

something that I

Well,

you sleep with people

and they can say anything.

That's one that creeps up on you over

time.

Where you can have I remember once

waking up to a to a message saying,

"Relax. This is fine. It's all being

dealt with, but one of your

ex-girlfriends in a Facebook group

community for moms has said, 'Do you

think it's okay if I make up a story

about my ex. I will take the money from

the story and give it to my son.'"

So we had that screenshotted. We had

that locked down. So if it did go to the

press, straight away we can have it

taken down. And I was like, "Wow,

I thought we were on good terms 10 years

ago, whatever it was."

And that then gets your mind working.

You go,

"What if I rub someone the wrong way?

What if someone changes their stance on

you? What if, you know, I have a joking

altercation with someone in a bar which

they then misconstrue? What if I

genuinely want to, you know, be ignorant

on a subject and someone construes that

as a facetious attempt to wins over

someone?" So

there's a lot of anxiety that I carry

because not everyone watching is

watching you succeed. A lot of people

watching you want to see you fall. And

they're waiting at that very

opportunity. And that is quite tough

because

there are going to be a lot of people

that are out to just not see me be

happy.

So that's where the anxiety stems from a

lot of the time. You have the general

life anxiety like, "Oh, I hope I hope I

don't get canceled this year." You know,

one of those things. I've had friends

that never made it to 30. Some of my

rugby teammates

uh that, you know,

find a lump in the testicle on a Friday,

biopsy off by Sunday, dead within 10

months. And

I think about that a lot. So I think

it's important to have that anxiety as

well.

I'm not guaranteed to live to 60. You

know, I'm not guaranteed to see my book

release. So for the publisher's sake, I

got to get it finished, but Mhm. So

there's there are anxieties, but I work

proactively to override them.

You know?

Uh Mark Twain,

"I've had many

worries in my life, most of which never

happened."

So

I I think that I've got the wisdom,

especially of stoics, to

These

anxious traits are not new. They've

existed for a lot longer than we could

imagine.

So you do carry that around.

I get drunk, you know, I would drop it

something on the story, you know,

I know that drunk James can say things,

but I know he'd never do things. He's

not inappropriate. He's not a groper.

He's not disrespectful to women or any

of those things. So I'm fine with that.

But then I do carry this small amount of

anxiety because the higher you climb,

the further you fall.

And when you feel like your life is a

fairy tale,

you hope it has the fairy tale ending.

And you're like,

"I hope I'm not the one that, you know,

this is going too well."

Like you're at a gambling table. You

keep winning on red. Eventually, I'm

going to lose everything. I think about

that a lot. So I think that's what keeps

me straight.

How do you defend yourself from being

canceled? What's your sort of philosophy

uh for that? For me, my my thing, and

Ant Middleton I think reaffirmed this

for me, Jordan Peterson reaffirmed

reaffirmed this for me as well, is

if I never can try to convince anybody

that I'm something I'm not. If I never

try and convince them that I'm like a

really good guy or that I'm like morally

perfect, they'll never be able to call

out contradiction. And really, a lot of

the time, people getting canceled is

because they

um tried to pull the wool over your eyes

about their like moral compass. And it

explains why Jimmy Carr can sit here and

go, I mean, this is slightly different

cuz it's comedy, but Jimmy Carr can sit

there and go, "Oh, [ __ ] the over-70s.

The Delta variant wiped them out." Or

rappers can talk about all the

misogynistic things they talk about,