i wanted to be liked and i wanted people

to think i was interesting and so i had

to pretend and the voice in my head this

ego kept saying i'm a piece of [ __ ] that

i still

really have a problem with and i've got

to get better at when you're in that

headspace

not much makes sense anymore and you

have to start questioning everything

otherwise you just get stuck

the new path that i've forged which

isn't necessarily as mainstream and

isn't as shiny or celebrated or whatever

but i can be

truly me and there's room to move and

there's room to change it feels

liberating quick one can you do me a

favor if you're listening to this and

hit the subscribe button the follow

button wherever you're listening to this

podcast thank you so much fern cotton to

me she's the definition of authenticity

and she absolutely exudes self-awareness

and wisdom because she spent the last 10

20 years

understanding herself

she went through this remarkable journey

of entering the public spotlight at just

15 years old where she started working

on tv and up until her 30s when she

worked on bbc's radio 1 she remained

front and center in british media

but behind the scenes something else was

going on feeling like she wasn't being

true to herself and she was living

someone else's life

like she was wearing a mask it all came

to a head in her early 30s where she

realized that something had to change

if her panic attacks and her depression

was to end she had to make big life

changes

and this meant leaving her job in

pursuing a completely

different uncertain

unknown path

her story is remarkable but this

conversation was so incredibly valuable

because fern is wise she's done the work

and as she sits here today she's able to

tell us to tell me to tell you the

listener how to avoid making some of the

mistakes that she made in her life so

that we can all get to our own

very happy place

without further ado i'm stephen bartlett

and this is the diary of a ceo i hope

nobody's listening but if you are then

please keep this to yourself

i

one of the things that i've got from

reading about you reading about um

your story and reading your books was

how

self-analytical

and self-aware

you've become as the years have gone by

and it's pretty much central to a lot of

what you do is really understanding

yourself having these conversations on a

happy place and understanding others

which becomes a bit of a mirror

sometimes when you have a podcast so

when you look back at the

the start of your life

what were the things that were really

formative to you

that you've noticed in hindsight

i guess like most people it's

my parents

and

their work ethic and their outlook on

life

and

they're very very different people so

i've picked up very different things

from both of them so my mom is

tenacious very honest she gets things

done

she's been very dynamic over the years

but her work ethic has been amazing like

when i was growing up she had

anywhere between one and four jobs at

any one time having to just sort of

juggle life and get money on the table

so i had that sort of like tenacious

force

in my life but and then i also had my

dad who's so laid back really super

chilled

super creative he only retired a couple

of years ago although he's sort of

started working again but he was a sign

writer

throughout his whole working life

so i would go and watch him paint these

beautiful signs by hand obviously back

in the day

and he was always drawing and painting

at home and i would do the same so i've

always had a huge love of of art and

creating

and my dad's a really good story to

hello and he's very funny and my mum's

really social and really brilliant at

talking to people so i i kind of just

observed them you know i wasn't actively

doing it as a kid but by osmosis you you

take in

all of this information and

and just what you're seeing as a as a

child growing up so

i

have my mum and dad to thank for

everything really you know they they

gave me the sort of stability and love

to do what i wanted but also they showed

me work ethic

which i've always really held on tight

to because

i want to do well and i'm not

scared to say that i i want to to

succeed and do well in what i'm doing

and i know that requires a lot of work

what about school how are you in school

i heard not so not so great

um

i was good i guess when i was tiny i

wanted to stay in line i wasn't a rebel

i didn't want to get in trouble i was

terrified of authority or getting a

detention so i was pretty well behaved

and then i guess in my teen years i

started to just think

this is so boring and it's gray it's

gray outside and it's gray in here and

there must be

something other than this sort of

suburban life that i'm in i mean it was

all fine i was very lucky kid who grew

up with loving parents and a brother and

i had a school to go to but i just found

it so boring and that's where i just

started daydreaming constantly and i

guess that's where i started getting in

a teeny bit of trouble i was dreaming of

all of these other options other than

the ones i was being presented you know

you have to fill in the form of

what career option are you going to have

and it would always come back with

something that was relatively social but

it was nothing to do with what i was

interested in so i thought i'm not doing

any of this crap i want to do something

that makes my heart sing and that that

was always at that stage performing

in some way so i i luckily found a

brilliant local dance and drama school

it was in a church hall it was run by

all of these

young cool brilliant dancers singers

actors who were all in the west end

doing stuff but then running this little

local dance school on the side and that

was my everything so at school i was

just like watching the clock thinking

when can i get out of here to get to my

dance school

and i danced every day after school all

saturday all sunday

and that just felt

incredible like it was pure escapism

getting to just listen to amazing music

and learn

incredible dance routines i'm so

grateful to alex and chris that the two

people that that ran the dance school

and um

it just was the the coolest place to be

and to hang out and i would spend every

second there that i could so if i'd

asked you at that age what you want to

be when you grow up

post that dance school experience what

would you have said to me probably an

actor or

a like a backing dancer on top of the

pops was very appealing at that point

like i want to be in a crop top and

cargo pants

dancing behind a cool pop star that was

very appealing to me but i think i

really wanted to act because it felt

like pure escapism and we did all these

brilliant shows little tiny local

theaters but

really overly rehearsed and sort of you

know well done well thought through by

our

sort of dance school teachers and we had

amazing teachers you know people

straight from cats coming off stage and

teaching us routines or saturday night

fever whatever it might be

and it yeah it just felt exciting and

fun and something completely different

to the

mundane reality of going to school and

you know my parents working really hard

and just that mundane routine it just

felt like a complete break from it so i

think acting

was was the goal but i went very

off-piste did you believe when you were

13-14 that that was

possible

you believed it was possible yeah i

don't know why because i didn't know

anyone in that world

it i was a local dancer wasn't it sort

of like radar or even sylvia young's a

local dance school in a church

but i think the combination of being a

big dreamer like having wild fantasies

that i would just love escaping to

obviously before phones and social media

so your imagination was kind of where it

was at

and i would dream big and also my

parents they were never sort of like

pushy stage parents they were too busy

working but they were certainly

encouraging like you like this stuff you

keep doing it you know go all day

saturday go all day sunday it was

certainly encouraging

and obviously that combined with a huge

amount of naivety allowed me to believe

that i could do it and i think it's good

to have that naivety as a youngster

because you become jaded as you get

older and you see the pitfalls and you

see where you've made mistakes and i

miss that naivety because i don't really

have any of it anymore i kind of know

what i'm stepping into

i second guess the bad stuff that's

going to happen i'm probably overly

cautious whereas back then i could be

ridiculously

wild and brave because i was naive and

it got me somewhere and i sometimes miss

that naivety i guess

i couldn't relate more to that feeling

of just the preciousness of naivety um

and also how that decays as we become

adults and the world starts to

make us be a bit more realistic

really boring realistic imprisoning it

is 15 years old you get a spot on a

disney show by

hockey by crooks it seems that it was

quite a yeah

fate i guess really it was

like most brilliant game-changing

moments lots of factors so i was at this

local dance school

and one of the moms of another kid

worked in tv

she had said to one of the um dance

school teachers

we want to audition a couple of kids or

i know someone that's auditioning kids

for this

this disney club show

so i went along to this audition with my

nan because my mum was at work

and my nan obviously this was completely

not my nan's world whatsoever my dear

nan sylvia so we went into london to

kensington to this

audition space and there were loads of

kids i felt completely out of place they

were all from the big dance schools anna

chers sylvia young's and they were all

talking about that and saying oh

what show are you doing they're all in

les mis or whatever and i was going oh

[ __ ] i haven't done anything i go to a

local dance when i do little shows in my

local theater i had done nothing

of any prestige and i felt like i

shouldn't be there and i was trying to

not let that get the better of me but

again i think naivety and lack of

experience really

helped me like benefited me in that

circumstance and i went into the little

audition room and i was told to speak to

the camera which i'd never done before

because i'd just done stuff on stage

where you're dancing or

acting out a scene

so i thought why not am i talking to a

camera i don't even know

what that is or how i meant to do that

so i was just me which was what they

were luckily looking for i was just a

kid

chatting about stuff that i liked which

was like

hanson and watching top of the pops and

zoey ball and i talked about it with

enthusiasm because i was enthusiastic

about those things as a kid

and i somehow

blagged my way on to this

tv show on itv you know a big there was

only five tv channels back then or maybe

even four so it was a great exposure

piece and

but at the same time due to a lack of

social media

i was allowed to grow naturally and to

make mistakes and to be bloody awful

without much critique because there

wasn't really any

so i had you know amazing tv producers

teaching me the ropes and letting me

experiment and work out who i was on

camera and um and i've discovered i

really liked it

imposter syndrome you talked there you

said um you said a sentence there you

said i felt like i shouldn't be here

how was that the first sort of real dose

of imposter syndrome that you had

encountered in your life without a doubt

because i

i moved out of my safe little world of

being in

east coast where i slip all these little

suburban towns that i was living in or

doing the theatre

school in

where i had all my friends there and it

was safe and they all

had the same background as me and

nobody had been in that world so i felt

really safe and then moving into this

other world with stage school kids or

then eventually being on a tv set with

professional people from the worlds of

tv who'd been doing it for years i felt

wildly out of place

but

i don't think that's ever left me

i think i've always

kept that feeling like i don't really

belong in it

one of the things i'd noticed from

reading about that part of your life is

that you'd kind of it seemed like you'd

started to kind of overcompensate for

that feeling of um imposter syndrome by

working exceptionally hard and it's

funny because you know when you were

describing your mother's work ethic

there it sounded somewhat similar just

that we've got to keep this steam engine

running we've got to keep shoveling the

coal into the engine or it's going to or

it might stop right i think that's i

guess an element of coming from

suburbia into the the limelight and

somewhat not feeling like you're going

to be there is that that fear that it

might also be taken away at some point

right without a doubt i mean i don't

think you lose the feeling of your your

upbringing you might lose bits of it and

work your own you know your own thought

processes into life but i think it's

always there and i'll probably always

have a kind of working class

ethic because that's what i was brought

up with

so i have always over compensated

and i think i still do but i'm a little

braver in not conforming to what is

expected of me and having to do

mainstream tv or having to do

any mainstream broadcasting i'm trying

to do

more of my own stuff where i feel i can

experiment more be

truly authentic

and not have impostor syndrome because i

don't in my own space luckily when i'm

doing my podcast or i'm writing or we do

a festival whatever it might be

i do feel

comfortable and safe but not in a way

that dead ends me there's always room to

improve

new things to learn

more people to listen to which is a key

part of what i do now but i don't have

that horrible

feeling of i shouldn't be here on this

fancy tv set with all of these people

that belong here i i don't think i've

ever lost that weirdly and it maybe

feels like a bit of a teenage hangover

but

i i've never felt comfortable in that

space or like i truly belonged there

really what was the adverse consequence

of not feeling like you belonged there

throughout that period of your life not

being myself right because i think

i mean

not you know i wasn't sort of running

from myself entirely but i was certainly

i felt for a long period of time

too boring or too

average to be

in that position i thought you had to be

complicated or exceptionally something

to be in that space whereas i don't

believe that anymore i think everyone's

got their own worth and their own

beautiful spirit that is worth paying

forward but at that time i thought how

can i be here this kid from the suburbs

who what do i know why am i

in front of the camera

so

i certainly

i guess over accentuated who i was or

was a bit too smiley a bit too

enthusiastic a bit too everything

to

i get i guess get people to like me i

wanted to be liked that's the name of

the game a lot of the time in that

industry if people like you you have a

job if you're not liked

you don't have a job so

i wanted to be liked and i wanted people

to think i was interesting and that i

had some worth and had something to say

i didn't believe i did so i had to

pretend that i had some worth there and

and make it look like i did whereas now

with the work i do i believe through my

own life experiences the people that

i've learned from

the work that i've put in to be able to

write the way i do and interview people

the way that i do i can see my own worth

i can feel my own worth but for years i

didn't know what it was

you've had

i don't know how long it was but you

know at least probably a decade there of

living

almost you know professionally every day

um living out almost like a character or

being someone for the public for the

radio for the tv

um a lot of people have that in their

own lives in in various ways they might

be doing something professionally which

isn't like truly in aligned with who

they really are

tell me about the consequence of that

then of 10 years or or more of playing a

role and your life being

um not authentic to who you actually are

what's the consequence of that

i think you start creating your own

barriers it's only you that that's doing

that because we've all got the freedom

to be more authentic or to try new

things or to just

rock up to a situation fully as you we

can all do that it's scary but we can do

it and as you say i know i didn't do it

for years and years probably way more

than a decade certainly you know the

first 10 years of my career i didn't

know what that meant i just turned up

and was as happy as i could be and

enthusiastic and read the lines try not

to slip up over my words and went home

and felt chuffed and then the next

decade in my 20s that's where i felt

like oh i'm a bit boring i need to kind

of be a bit more exciting or whatever it

is that people want me to be

and

you stop yourself from moving into new

areas because you just think this is

what the public want or the boss wants

so i will be

enthusiastic and or if i was on the

radio i will be happy and improve

people's day by

bringing music and happiness whatever

whereas now

i'm just me so if i'm not feeling great

i will turn up to

a podcast a radio show or if i'm writing

as i am

i did a recording just before christmas

the day after one of my cats had died

and i'd had my cat for 20 years

and you know you've got a pet you know

it they're part of your family and i was

deeply grieving and i thought i'm not

going to cancel because i think there's

value in me turning up like this but i'm

not going to pretend that i feel any

different so i'm going to

answer with these emotions bubbling up

and i'm going to be

me and i have much less

care for people's response to that or

their reaction to it i just think

there's worth in all of it

if people don't listen to that they

don't have to that's that's their choice

but i'm not going to pretend anymore

that i'm anything other than how i am on

that day

but i've had to

forge a new path to do that i don't

think i could be

doing this

in the old spaces that i worked in

there's not as much room for it

i'm not talking about that in a

derogatory way because i had a great

period of learning from doing all that

stuff

but the new path that i've forged which

isn't necessarily as mainstream and

isn't necessarily as

shiny or celebrated or whatever

but i can be truly me

and there's room to move and there's

room to change and

it feels liberating i guess i feel very

lucky you know that's a lucky space to

have created

so you were

in essence living a very one-dimensional

life through that period and i've you

know i speak to i speak to jake about

this sometimes about how when you're on

tv you're there to do a very sort of

one-dimensional job i've learned from

doing this podcast that it's this

podcast is like therapy for me because i

get to be multi-dimensional i get to be

my true self and honest and also the

medium of podcasting as well allows for

depth and context that five-minute

little news clips on good morning

britain don't allow and you describe

that as liberation um i

i find that like incredibly um

incredibly important and it's i was just

thinking as you're saying it why

um a few of the sort of tv presenters or

radio presenters i've spoken to share

that experience of their professional

lives

inadvertently making them

one-dimensional at some point in your

life you um

you kind of uh

not rebounded but you um you pushed that

life away

that kind of one-dimensional sitting

there doing tv or radio

can you tell me about the build up to

that moment and and what

it was that made you realize it was time

to move on or move forward or to leave

it was so many things um

i guess there's only so much discomfort

you can take and it and it's not

due to the people i was working with or

even the medium i was working in i just

didn't feel right in it some people are

made for it and they can do that job way

better than i could

and they have a level of comfort there i

don't think i ever found that level of

comfort i don't know why

um

but also i had stuff going on personally

that meant at one point in my life i

felt really really awful really awful i

was in a period of depression

and

i think when you're in that headspace

not much makes sense anymore and you

have to start questioning everything

if you want to get out of it otherwise

you just get stuck and i did get stuck

for a long time and i went on medication

and did everything that one does to try

and get your head above the water but

there has to i think be a moment of

self-inventory where

you look at everything in your life

objectively and you start to question

everything and i still have to face

those fears every now and then because

at the moment i'm promoting a new book

and i'm going to have to go on live tv

and i'm going to have to go on live

radio

and it fills me with acute anxiety

thinking about those things because

there are parts of that experience that

feel very synonymous with

not a great time in my life

so

i've had to make a lot of very difficult

decisions where there have been moments

where i've been either offered lovely

jobs or i've been doing lovely jobs but

i haven't been able to do them it's not

even been something that i've

cognitively had to think about so i

cannot put myself in that position at

the moment i might be able to one day

but at the moment where i'm at with my

life and

healing from stuff and also i've got

young kids

i don't want

too much extra stress where i don't have

to have it

but also

i i don't want to sit here

professing like i made all these

decisions i left everything i started a

new life because also i haven't been

offered many tv shows it's not like

people have been going please come and

do a big mainstream tv show it's current

my own feelings about

that world have coincided with me not

being offered very much and at times

being sacked i use the word sacked

you never get officially sacked you just

aren't on the show anymore and then

someone else is doing it you're still

sacked so you kind of get take taken off

the show for

whatever reasons they've changed up the

format whatever

and

so that kind of coincided with me not

feeling like i was really enjoying a lot

of a lot of it but i probably would have

still my ego still wanted to be asked

and to be doing the odd

bits and bobs on tv

um that speaks to the law of attraction

a little bit there because you know it

does it does reading about what you've

uh in your new book about what you say

about the law of attraction and because

you know 13 years old you were trying to

pull that world into your life and then

at some point you decided

probably

inside before maybe vocally because of

your ego that you no longer were

enjoying this and then it started to

fall away yeah i guess it happens to all

of us

in many ways whether it's about work or

people you you know that you have in

your life whatever it might be that

you do hopefully start to act less from

your ego and more from a very

deep

you know sort of gut

feeling place

and

that's a good thing

um but it means that there are going to

be changes and the people around you

will react in certain ways to those

changes and you might feel slightly

wobbly about those changes at first

because you know when i sort of decided

that i wanted to leave radio one i'd had

a great time at radio one i'd had some

bad times personally whilst i was there

but the opportunity in itself was a gift

i was very lucky to have had that job

and sort of interviewed all these

brilliant musicians no matter what level

i was interviewing them at it was a

privilege to do that

um

but when i decided that i needed a new

chapter and i needed something new and a

new challenge i don't think i had a

single person say to me that's a great

idea you know everybody was sort of

going why are you leaving you have a

brilliant job on a brilliant radio

station interviewing all these

amazing people so i think you can make

those decisions they won't often be

backed up by everyone around you

but if you know it's right

that little voice will only get louder

and louder and i had that for like

probably six months before i decided

okay i've really got to do this now.

that voice was just again and again

saying

try something you know try something

else do something new you know give

yourself a new challenge

but you've got to

i guess you just have to jump into the

void because you're not going to have

everyone go great idea i'm here to

support you

let's go there is a moment where when

you are acting from an authentic place

that you just have to jump what was that

voice saying

in the lead-ups you leaving radio one

what was that voice saying every day as

you came into work you sat there for

three hours how did you feel what was

what was going on in your mind

you know what although i had that

authentic

voice

and that sort of niggling feeling that i

needed to do something different there

was also a voice going

like who do you think you are leaving a

job like that i still had that voice

going on who the hell do you think you

are leaving that job what are you gonna

do next good luck i had that going on so

i had these two voices one saying

try something new

you know there's there's another chapter

to be had

i found the pressure of being live every

day

all encompassing at times and

the anxiety of that

was tough

and i also

didn't love having routine that was the

same every day because you do have a

very structured day when you've got a

live show every day

and part of me felt a bit like oh i'm

still feeling like i'm a bit at school

with that kind of structure

but as i said this other voice was going

what are you doing you're an idiot

you're full you never you're out of that

whole world of music where you get to go

to the brit awards and you're respected

in the world of music because when you

leave you're not it's quite instant all

of a sudden you're not invited to the

brit awards and you're not respected in

it because you don't have a key

party you don't have a platform to go

i'm playing this song because i love it

you're not important anymore so your ego

takes the bruising and that took about i

don't know five or six months to go oh

god that still hurts a bit that no one

really gives a [ __ ] about me anymore and

then

you get over it so none of it's easy or

a quick like i left that and then i

started happy place

there it has been a bumpy road with lots

of ego bruising and lots of like

worrying that it's all going wrong and

then brilliant highs of

magical things coming out of the blue

but that feels exciting rather than just

going with the easier route i guess

which it was it was an easy it was an

easier route

again reading through your story and you

talked about um experiencing depression

there for the first time i growing up

when i first read this word depression i

thought okay that must be something that

happens to other people right that's not

i don't and as i've as i got older and

started speaking to a lot of

psychologists and people like johan hari

who wrote lost the book lost connections

um i my view on these mental health

disorders and various sort of mental

health conditions started to develop and

evolve to realize that we're really all

every single person listening to this

now is i'm capable of experiencing one

of these disorders it's actually part of

being human these are in the view of

many but not always i don't think

anything is exclusive to anything but um

is a symptom of the way

we we live our lives sometimes right is

that accurate

from your experience in terms of it

being a symptom of something yeah um i

never go into too much detail about the

circumstance but i was dealing with some

heavy [ __ ] and things i didn't want to

deal with

and i didn't know how to cope and

i think prior to me having that quite

lengthy period of depression i don't

know how long because it's quite blurry

a year

two years

it could have incrementally been five i

don't know there was a real intense

period where it's very very bad whereas

on medication and i

didn't really want to leave the house

then it incrementally got a little

easier and there were bad patches again

so it's a little bit blurry around the

edges

but much like you growing up i don't

think i even heard the word growing up

it certainly wasn't something i heard in

the 80s or 90s i wasn't exposed to it

yet my mum has dealt with depression and

i probably sort of knew that growing up

but didn't know there was i just thought

that's my mum i didn't think there was a

label for it or there was it was a thing

but when i was writing my first book

happy

i said to my mum would you write a piece

for it about

depression i'd never said that word out

loud to her in in context of her own

experience and she literally sent back

this thing within about 10 minutes

because it was all there ready to go

but we'd never had that chat properly so

although i didn't know the terminology

there was a feeling of it and i

understood it and my mum's mum my nan

sylvia

she had nervous breakdowns

when my mum was younger and i heard a

little bit about that so i knew it was

sort of there in the family so you know

how much of it is hereditary how much of

it is circumstantial i don't know and i

think a lot of mine was circumstantial

and then

understanding that has led me to look at

lots of different ways to

you know eradicate awful memories move

on from the past

eradicating ugly emotions like shame

and

learning to like myself i think that's

been one of the big

sort of movements in my

own healing

and you talk very openly as well about

um panic attacks again something i was

none the wiser to until you know it's

funny because i look back at when i

started to learn about people's panic

attack experiences i look back and think

i think i had one yeah i remember a day

where i was i had a very strange

physiological reaction in my body and

started feeling really overwhelmed and

like i had all this energy building up

but i couldn't quite understand what was

going on with me and and when i started

reading a little bit about your

experiences with panic attacks you know

when you were on that motorway that day

for the first time um it kind of rang

true to the experience i had

talk to me about your what the first

panic attack you had you know

what you learned from that experience

and and uh the journey you've gone on

with that and with anxiety and panic

attacks well i didn't know it was a

panic attack like when i had that

experience on the motorway i was with my

friend claire

and we were driving home from somewhere

we've been it was probably a two-hour

journey

and all of a sudden i went really hot

and i was like i didn't say anything to

claire i was like what the [ __ ] is going

on took my coat off round the windows

down she was like do you mind shine the

windows freezing i was like i'm just

feeling a bit weird

and then i started to feel like i was

sort of leaving my body which is my

experience of

panic attacks and i pulled over

and it's even weird talking about it

because i can draw that i can feel it

it's under the surface i haven't had one

for a while but i that feeling is so

familiar to me now this was probably

five years ago

my heart was racing i had no idea what

was going on so i went and saw a doctor

and was like there's something wrong

with my heart you need to check out my

heart and see what's going on with me

because i've had this

strange experience did all the tests i

lost nothing wrong with you fit and

healthy thank the lord

brilliant next you know the next week

i'm faced with some

quite nerve-wracking tv prospects of

being on live tv at this point i hadn't

quite realized i had an anxiety around

it i was just plowing through it

on the way in i was

getting that same awful feeling of i'm

leaving my body i had it in the makeup

chair i had it before i went on air i

had it during the time i was on air

it felt torturous like i don't want to

have this why can't i just go back to

what i used to do i used to go on tv and

be like so relaxed or be on radio like

online shopping i was so chilled out and

then all of a sudden

this thing it felt like

something was like infiltrated my neural

pathways like why is this happening

and that's where

i started talking to lots of different

people and

you know again i thought panic attacks

happened to other people i was like i've

never

had that i don't feel panicked i feel

like i'm leaving my skin

that's a panic attack

to some people there are different

manifestations of it obviously

i think if you put me in the situation

of having to do

one of those triggering jobs i would

most definitely still have one which is

why i don't really put myself in that

situation anymore

again i don't think it'll always be the

case i'm sure i could do

more therapy

more everything

and get to a place of comfort

i can't be bothered at the moment i

can't be bothered

to put myself in a position where i

don't feel safe i'd rather

forge new pathways work-wise and feel

safe and i'm very fortunate that i have

the propensity to do that i haven't

always but i do at the moment so i'm

going with it

um all of my panic attacks are around

work i don't really have them around

social settings i don't really have them

around

any physical activity it's around

work judgment of others

etc

so i just have to at the moment not put

myself

in that position

quick one at this time of year we always

see a huge spike in the amount of people

that are buying huel and joining the

huligan camp i guess um and i think that

speaks to the role that heel plays in my

life but also the role it plays to a lot

of people's lives which was as we start

to get a little bit busier typically we

fall into the trap of going for

convenience food and convenience food

for a lot of us means like junk food or

lots of sugary stuff whereas huel kind

of safeguards us in that part of our

lives it's completely nutritionally

complete as you'll know from listening

to this podcast and i say it every

single time i've had more tags on

instagram of people joining huel in the

last i'd say couple of weeks of january

that i have in the whole last quarter of

the year so if there was a time where

you're thinking about giving it a shot

here's my recommendation try the salted

caramel flavor that's my personal

favorite we all have different

preferences the banana flavor i

absolutely adore i love the cinnamon

swell flavor and also the protein powder

the salted caramel flavor again that

sits on top of my fridge over there is

incredibly useful if you are working out

and you're trying to get high levels of

protein into your body give it a go tag

me on instagram let me know what you

think

and come and become a huligan with me

you said when you left radio 1 it was a

a bumpy road now you know everybody in

their life at some point will have to

make a big decision to leave a position

of certainty which might be certain

misery in the pursuit of

something a bit more uncertain and

unclear whether there isn't a promise or

a blueprint

of how to achieve the thing

they wanted to get to their happier

place no pun intended

so so tell me about that bumpy road so

you leave you make the decision i'm

leaving radio one what was the the bumpy

road first of all i think all change

requires a bumpy road i don't think any

change for a human is like smooth and

great even if like you say you've left

something that you don't like

to follow your heart that's a brilliant

thing to do but i don't think there are

many people that would say that was a

smooth transition

so i

left radio

um i had my second kid well second slash

fourth because i've got two step kids

i had the fourth in our family little

honey

and i

didn't really have much work going on i

didn't really know

i was still doing celebrity juice at the

time which was a lot of fun

um

and then i started talking to my

publisher

about

writing something that felt a bit more

honest

and we hadn't had a conversation about

anything at this point to do with my own

experience for life i don't think i'd

told

i'd probably told three or four people

that i had experienced depression and i

wasn't feeling great i still probably

wasn't feeling that great at that point

there was big highs and lows and luckily

my publisher was really up for me just

sort of

seeing what

you know came out of me if i started

writing

so i wrote the book happy

which was my first

go at writing about anything

true and real to me or even talking

about it i hadn't ever done an interview

that felt particularly

like properly raw

and luckily lots of people liked that

book which made me think oh maybe i

could

do that a bit more

and less of the

being the other person that's on the

telly

so very very slowly

this sort of snowball effect well i

wrote two other books calm and quiet

and then

podcasts were kind of becoming a bit of

a thing

and there was you know me and my manager

had talked about schleider podcast and

everyone was going what's the podcast

and we were like well should we just try

anyway

it's just sort of chatting

so i started being my friends to start

off with or like just ringing people

please come on this podcast remember

emailing dawn french like will you call

my podcast i don't know what that is but

if you come to my house yes so i went to

her house in cornwall she was one of my

first guests we're very lucky that

that we were able to make that happen

and um and you know happy place sort of

started

we started the ball rolling with it and

other things started happening but again

it wasn't a sort of a smooth ascent or

trajectory to

where we're at now

there have been loads of moments where

probably more just mentally and

internally i've felt like

am i getting this right

is this going somewhere

have i actually got anything to say

you know

is my

is my platform helping people and doing

something with positive impact it's

probably been more cognitive than like

real problems happening of course have

been problems and

things going wrong but the bigger

problems have been in my head

and me worrying about stuff and feeling

like i'm a failure or like i've made a

big mistake or that

there's something wrong with me nobody

wants me on the tv i'm flawed i'm too

weird or i'm too outspoken i don't know

what it is i'm i just don't fit into

that anymore and i've had to let go of

worrying about that

because it doesn't really impact me so

much anymore i don't have to be on the

tv to do the other stuff that i'm doing

but there was a big mental hangover of

there must be something wrong with me

because people

don't want me on their screens and all

the bosses don't want me on their

screens anymore so i've had to let go of

a lot of old

thought patterns that do not serve me

so i can really

forge ahead clearly like with proper

clarity and with all of my energy

to do something that's different that's

over here that i really want to do and

is that an ongoing

practice or battle yeah i think it's an

ongoing discipline which sounds really

boring but i think a lot of this stuff

is it can still be fun but i think you

have to stay

dedicated to being nice to yourself and

not letting these mental patterns

stop your creativity or stop you trying

new things or stop you putting yourself

out there

so

yeah i guess it is a daily thing and

also it's undulating because some days i

feel like yes i've got so much

excitement for this podcast that i'm

doing coming up or i can't wait to write

this new book and then other times

i don't feel like that i wake up feeling

like oh my god you know i'll go into the

compare and despair thing of everyone

else is doing

things slicker better

look at stephen and all his cool cameras

and look at all these lights i don't

have this and you get into all of that

mindset

so i

i undulate some days i feel great and i

feel really grounded in what i meant to

be doing and other days i feel like i'm

flying all over the shop and i don't

know what the hell i'm doing and that's

okay and i think it's important to talk

about that so people don't

look at you know people in the public

eye or people who are doing things well

and think oh they know what they're

doing they feel great all the time

i don't know do you feel like that i

don't feel great all the time no no so

with with that with that that discipline

do you think the objective is just to

get to a better place and not really to

like overcome

the limiting belief it's just to get to

a better place is that the objective for

you

i think the objective has to be always

just to like myself

because then the rest sorts itself out

it doesn't matter where you're going

what you're doing how you're trying to

do it

if you like yourself

none of that

really

matters so much but also

equally as well as it not mattering so

much it will all happen with more ease

anyway because you'll make better

decisions you'll set clearer boundaries

you'll turn up

truly as yourself because you like you

no matter what day it is or whatever

you're going through

you'll hang out with people that make

you feel good you'll do more of what you

love you'll do less of what you hate

you'll have less mental torture because

you'll think oh no i don't deserve to be

hearing all that crap today

and you'll talk in a kinder voice to

yourself so for everybody that has to be

it's not even a goal it's just let's

give that a try again today and just see

if i can like myself a bit more which

brings us i think nicely onto your brand

new book bigger than us um

which is about the power of finding

meaning in a messy world and you're

talking there about liking yourself part

one of that book talks a lot about i

just want to say before we get into the

book that it it really is just a really

remarkable read you're a very very good

writer and i i picked up the book and i

thought maybe i'll skim whatever from

there from

from

and i

opened it and i just found myself sucked

into it and i said this to you before we

start recording because you're so

descriptive in the way you write that i

felt like i was it wasn't a book it was

more of like a movie i was inside the

scenario so you start in in part one of

the book talking about this sort of

self-compassion experiment

so tell me about what this

self-compassion experiment is and and

what it what it taught you and how it

helped you with those limiting beliefs

well first of all thank you because i've

had not so much feedback on the book

because it's not out yet so it truly

really means a lot that you've said that

oh yeah because this is where this is

ahead of time it's out now everyone it's

out but at the time of the recording i

haven't had as much feedback only from

luckily my publishers who really like it

but i'm it really means a lot that that

you got that from the book so i'm i'm

super grateful um

but self-compassion i didn't really know

where this book would take me

i knew the subjects i wanted to cover

i didn't know what the themes would be

at the start that kind of appeared later

down the line as the book kind of formed

but the first section did very much um

end up

sort of seeped in the theme of

self-compassion

and i guess the starting point was

talking to wendy who is a shaman that i

know wendy mandy and she's lived with

many indigenous tribes and

uh shamanic people the world over i

won't say how old she is but she's done

this for decades and decades

and every message seemed to go back to

self-compassion

and i've always known it's important but

i've certainly not practiced it because

you do have to practice it and i've

certainly not nailed it i've allowed

myself to get back into these loops of

like this acerbic voice that says i'm a

piece of [ __ ] etcetera

so i was like

if wendy's saying this again and again

and again and then so is the next person

i interview and the next person i

interview

then

i've got to

focus on this and it is a matter of

focus you can focus on all the things

you don't like about yourself

or you can choose to you know accept and

acknowledge that there are some things

you're not as good at and

mistakes you've made everyone has we are

human we are fallible humans but you can

focus on the stuff that

you really like about yourself and that

you really want to celebrate about

yourself and that you know and that you

notice the gifts that you have because

we've all got that every single person

has got

something to give

so it's a matter of putting your focus

and attention here or putting it over

here

so that was what i learned writing that

chapter was i need to focus more on this

stuff and not keep worrying so much

should i have said this have i upset

that person is it awful that 10 years

ago i did this thing that i really

regret you know we've all done that

there's no single person even the shiny

movie stars we see at the cinema or

people we see on instagram with 20

million followers they have all made

mistakes they all have ugly bits of

themselves they don't like silly things

they've done awful things they've said

slip-ups they've made

you know they've done things not from a

benevolent place we've all done it

but we can choose to not

live in that area the whole time and

like focus on it and drown in it and we

can look at the stuff that we do

want to celebrate about ourselves with

acceptance you haven't got to ignore and

shun

the shadow side because we've all got

that but have an acceptance of it

alongside celebrating the good stuff

i think is really what i learned from

writing that that chapter and in

practical terms how do you celebrate how

do you celebrate

the good stuff and try not to

let the mind wander away when you wake

up in the morning and you start

immediately thinking about oh my god my

my hair is this my nails are that why

haven't i done this i'm a bad mum et

cetera as you write about in the book

how do you what's the practical kind of

like discipline that you've engaged in

to be more self-compassionate i'm quite

lucky in the fact that i'm a very

obvious person so i can see myself very

obviously my habits are obvious and

they're big

and my big one

is to work too much and to be a

workaholic and to put the kids to bed

and then keep working until i'm

exhausted and my husband's like shut

your [ __ ] laptop like what are you

doing just

stop like what are you doing

and sometimes that is coming from a

place of wanting to do well some of the

time

a lot of the time probably 80 of the

time

that is coming from a place of i'm a

shitty person i don't deserve what i've

got i don't deserve to have the job that

i've got i've made mistakes i'm an idiot

i have to work harder if i am to believe

that i deserve

where i'm at

that's where that's coming from so i can

see it it's obvious when i go into

workaholic mode i go

oh i don't i must be not liking myself

very much now i'm beating myself up

about something

within me and it's deep rooted you have

to get down to that place of

what is this that i don't like about

myself

and on the days that i choose to do

something nice for myself and i'm not

talking about anything fancy i'm talking

about going for a walk that to me is

bliss

headphones music walking i'm in heaven

going for a walk

resting like allowing myself time out

allowing myself time where i'm not

worrying about emails and

how well the podcast is doing and here's

my book selling and just being and

hanging out with nice people or having a

friendly chat with someone then i know

that my actions are coming from a place

where i'm at peace with myself that day

so i'm obvious it'll be different for

everyone but you can probably spot the

patterns where you're in a little

negative cycle

versus the ones where you're being

nicer to yourself

what have you done practically as well

in your life to avoid putting yourselves

in scenarios where your your self

comparison is going to be triggered

because i imagine in the in the

mainstream like tv world i'm like just

tiptoeing into it dragon stands out this

week so you're starting to get invited

to these places that i don't really want

to be at

don't go yeah yeah i'm like with my team

i know that i just said no i don't want

to go no i don't want to go like i get

some really great invites and i'm just

like no i don't know

like obviously one of the probably

one of the only things i've done in

recent times was go to jake's charity

thing which was thrown out which was so

nice i think i cried at one point that

was gorgeous outside of that all the

other invites as glamorous as they are

it's just not me and i'm like um but

what do you do on a practical level to

avoid putting yourself in scenarios that

you know

i mean social media is the global

scenario of self-comparison but

to to to stop yourself being sucked in

to i don't think you can i don't think

anyone can in this day and age so

it's less about

the situations i put myself in

and more about how i choose to receive

that information because it is just

information whether it's looking at how

we quantify our popularity this new

framework of look how popular this

person is and that must mean something

or if it's just in your own friendship

group you haven't been invited to a

party or whatever the hell it is when we

try and

look at where we fit into it and how

high up are we on the ladder or whatever

or how far down am i on the ladder it's

how you receive that information it's

not reality we're all

beautiful beings of benevolent light we

we are that that all of us are that yes

we'll make mistakes yes we'll do shitty

things but we are all beautiful amazing

humans that are deserving of love and

kindness whether that's from ourselves

or other people

so the rest of it is a bit of a game

show so i think i just try and extract

myself mentally from it meaning too much

and just go

you know like i say like some

it's undulating on a bad day where i

already feel like [ __ ] myself i

could look at the podcast chart and go

oh my god i'm not even in the top 10.

what does this mean i'm not relevant

anymore la la and then i'm off on a

cycle of hell with breaking myself about

how crap i'm at my job

or

on a good day where i've woken up and

i've done a few things i know you make

me feel good i can then look at

something like the podcast chart or

instagram and go okay there are people

who are enjoying the work that i'm

putting out there

i'm grateful that's amazing that i have

the opportunity to talk and do a podcast

or write a book or whatever it is and

i'm i'm naturally more inclined to feel

grateful than i am to worry about where

i fit into it all so it's

much less about where i put myself now

because i think for all of us it's

inevitable that we're going to see

ourselves in some sort of system or some

sort of

framework of society and just look at

how i'm imbibing that information and

how seriously i'm taking it

not easy

it's not easy and it's

much easier for me than it is a lot of

people there are some people that

have

such a difficult situation in life

because systemically they're not looked

after people in the disability community

if you can't get into a shop because

there isn't a ramp there

where do you feel you fit into society

you know that is

unfair that is

that is not a nice place to be

where you are

whether it's physically or mentally

unable to slot into parts of society

because the framework isn't existing

i'm lucky because

i am able to

move around in society

with ease mine's more cognitive and a

silly mental game i play with myself

because of

you know in the past thinking i'm a

shitty person etc so i think we have to

notice how much of it is practical which

is unfair and we need systemic change

versus how much of this am i putting on

myself

how horrible am i being to myself

why am i comparing myself to people i

don't know etc so it's easier for me to

do that than for some people where

systemic change is desperately needed

and you're you're quite an introverted

person as well aren't you in terms of

you don't really you're not out there

partying or going to these glitzy

glamour events or anything do you

consider those mentally to be unsafe

places yes i think i used to believe i

had to go because people had to see me

out and i had to be seen in a cool place

wearing the best dress or whatever

and you know occasionally i'll go to the

odd thing if there is some meaning or

support for a friend or whatever

but i haven't been to something like

that in a very very long time um and i'm

an introvert in the truest sense

if i've done a podcast of my own or i've

or when i finish this episode with you

today

i will be tired

like an old lady like i need to go home

and be quiet i'm going to take my doors

to swimming later just me and her

and we will just have some quiet time

like i'm not the sort of person that

after i finished even if it was like the

most amazing episode and it was this

cool big celebrity i'm not the sort of

person that then wants to go out and

drink champagne to be like yeah let's

all be in a gang and celebrate that i am

drained

drained to my call and i need to go to

bed early and read a book before bed and

be on my own so although my job is to

communicate and i love talking to people

more than any other thing on the planet

i need something to counter balance that

and that is

solitude and tranquility

and

just peace and being a hermit quite

frankly

solitude tranquility and being a hermit

in the in the first part of your because

where you talk about your relationship

with meditation and what it's taught you

one of the really interesting sort of

conclusive points you make there is that

it taught you that our thoughts we

aren't our thoughts

and i think we all obviously we all go

through life thinking we are our

thoughts because that is the voice in my

head it's it's the control center so if

it says stevie a piece of [ __ ] i'm gonna

go okay we're a piece of [ __ ] yeah so

talk to me about that disassociation

you've you've learned with your thoughts

and was that a moment in your life that

that the penny dropped or

i think

i've heard a lot of people say it

i've had a lot of people say you are not

your thoughts and i've gone oh that's

kitsch i'm like that's cool

but i've never really applied it and

then i think again writing this book and

talking to jambo specifically in the

book about this subject

and he had a really brilliant and sort

of a more fun way of describing that

voice in our head especially when we go

into meditation and i'm not a daily

meditator

i do a lot of walking meditation rather

than seat which is actually luckily a

sort of lovely buddhist concept not that

i'm buddhist or aligned to any religion

but it's very much done by buddhist

monks there's seated meditation

and walking meditation and i can deal

with walking meditation a lot better i

can go out into nature with no phone

nothing and just walk and look around me

and i enjoy that more than sitting and

there's you know that's a great

introduction for me to get into it

but jambo talks about this moment where

you sit down and you try and have this

peaceful moment and then you've got the

voices they start and they might be

really mean and it might be like you

said you're a piece of [ __ ] or it might

just be

oh my god i haven't emailed back this

person or just silly lists of things we

haven't done

and he likens it to

you you're listening to your ego you're

actually sat there without any

distraction of a phone a laptop noise

being around people and you're listening

to it and you have to go to your ego

come here babe what's going on

get come it stop it's fine you don't

need to waffle on about i know this

story you've told me this before

and you you listen to it because we

don't in the day we're trying to

distract ourselves from that voice

oh my god i'm just gonna eat some

biscuits because i can't deal with all

that crap in my head right now i'm gonna

or i'm gonna work i'm gonna work until i

am exhausted or i'm gonna just scroll on

social media we'll do anything to not

listen to that

and there's nothing wrong

with that egoic voice we've all got it i

don't think the key or the aim is to

banish it from our minds and go

this voice can't exist i must be egoless

because unless you're living

on a mountaintop in scarlet robes as an

amazing enlightened being it's highly

unlikely in the modern world we're going

to have that experience so we listen to

it and you can have all the thoughts and

the chatter going but you don't have to

believe it and you don't have to act on

it you just simply

listen to it

and then you and then you might

afterwards after your meditation you

might go for a walk or you might even

like another thing i learned in the book

do some non-religious praying where you

go right i just noticed that my ego kept

saying i'm a piece of [ __ ] because this

happened and the voice in my head this

ego kept saying that i am not worthy of

whatever it is

so whoever you decide to pray to

whatever it is it doesn't have to be a

god or

a being it can just be a prayer sent

outwards

please help me with this awful

thought process that i have i don't want

it anymore i want to notice and

recognize my own

worth and love so it's quite a nice

combination that i learned about in the

book meditating

followed by by a non-religious or if you

are religious a religious prayer

beautiful but it's quite a

powerful kind of listening and and then

asking

sort of balance

on that listening and asking in the

second chapter of your book you you talk

about how

just like one thought for your life had

really

this one unhelpful thought that

underlied pretty much everything in your

life had um caused irregular moods it

caused you to turn down work it caused

you to think not so well of yourself and

as you describe it in the book feeling

like your rib cage was outside of your

heart your body for 10 years and this

underlying thought you had which you've

talked about there is that you didn't

deserve better

um

we all have this right we all have this

these underlying

self-opinions i'll call them of

ourselves that are inadvertently and

sometimes usually unconsciously like

running the show of our lives

if i was to ask you

how does one find out what these self

opinions are

um so that we can be liberated from them

how do i do that i think you get quiet

because the more we distract ourselves

the less

we know about ourselves

and we're just living via other people's

projections of us

so we become what your work colleagues

think of you you become what your

parents think of you become what

your kids have said to you you become

the projection

the only way you will

really

understand who you are and hear that

voice

is by getting quiet

and that's not a one-off thing like oh

i'm just going to get quiet today and

see what happens it might be through

journaling through writing you know i've

just re-read the artist's way you do

your pages every morning you just write

what comes to mind

you're getting to know yourself god i

think this i didn't even know i was

thinking that you know it just spills

out of you if you don't like writing you

could speak it into your

memos of your phone or a dictaphone if

anyone owns one of those still um

or you could just go walking and listen

to that internal voice and know there's

nothing wrong with it it doesn't matter

that that internal voice keeps saying

something quite negative

you've just got to hear it and know it

and then

understand that it is not true

like that is a given for anyone whatever

that awful thing is that that's that

sort of cycle of thoughts in your head

i'm a piece of [ __ ] i'm not worthy i'm

underserving i'm a bad parent i'm a bad

partner i'm a bad friend

they are all lies like all of it

we've all made mistakes we've covered

this we've all made mistakes we've all

done things wrong we will continue to do

so for the rest of our lives but that

doesn't mean any of that stuff's true

we're just getting up in the morning and

trying

we're all just getting up and trying so

all of that stuff in your head is other

people's projections it's not true

and that is sometimes hard to swallow

because people think

no it is true i've lived my whole life

knowing that i'm a bad

whatever it is

and that almost keeps you

and i've had this personally it keeps

you safe and comfortable in that because

you don't try new things and you don't

push yourself

and you don't put yourself out there

because i can't i'm bad at that i'm an

idiot i'm not worthy of greatness

abundance whatever it is so you keep

yourself small and you build walls

around yourself

it's much scarier

to rally against that negative thought

and to have to try new things to try

again that's even harder

to try something you failed at or

supposedly failed at

but if you if you understand that those

thoughts aren't true

you give yourself the space and freedom

to try new stuff or to get into a

relationship again or to

have a best friend again if you got hurt

whatever it is it's scary to do that

stuff i've certainly been trapped in

walls like that before and believed that

negative voice because it's been quite

comfortable weirdly

but if you let them go and you

decide to scare yourself a bit there

there's all sorts of things you could be

doing in trying there's an expanse of

stuff you could learn or experience in

life so

i'm by no means a place where i'm like

nailing all this stuff but i've learned

even more by writing this book and i'm

even more willing

to give new stuff a try and to not

listen

to this voice that is yabbering on in my

head the whole time

you are like quite quite obviously a

testament to the power of journaling and

writing and um

putting your thoughts and feelings out

into the world because because you've

done that you've written so many books

you've recorded so many podcast episodes

it's quite apparent to me that the

self-awareness you exude is a is a

consequence of that and for me one of

the really unintended but really um

fortunate consequences of starting a

podcast was you had to look at your

thoughts a lot

and the diversio started with me in my

bedroom opened up my diary at the end of

the week and read out what it says and

that meant that i had to record a diary

and so i'd finish these podcasts after

week one two three and four and i'd go

oh my god i'm like my my self-awareness

is becoming heightened i'm understanding

things about my childhood that i never

knew before you know we often think

therapy is sit in a room speak to

somebody else but therapy for me was

writing in my diary and looking down on

the page right and so i just think that

i wanted to just highlight that because

i think it's the most important

understated easy dare i say thing that

someone can do is just to like look at

their thoughts on a regular basis

podcasting forces you to yeah um like

making quotes on instagram again forces

you to look back at your experiences and

not just let them pass you by without

the value extracted so i just wanted to

dwell on that for a second um because i

think everyone should do it and i say

this a lot i say everyone should like

keep the diary and just like right every

every week yeah

it's so therapeutic to do that so

therapeutic i mean i've written a diary

since i was

a tiny kid wow and i've said i've said

this before on my own i only said it

recently i only felt

i guess kind of brave enough to say it

out loud but i thought it would have

some worth because there'll be people

who have a similar thing going on

i wrote a diary since i was i don't know

12

nearly every night wow i had books and

books and books had

so when i went through my very bad

depression i burned all of them they

went i didn't want

to have a past so they went

my dad had there was a big incinerator

at work he took a big bag in said don't

look at any of them i want them gone

and i did regret it for a while

although i've also made peace that it

was actually

a bit of a ceremony a ritual for me to

like it went up in flames you know a lot

of good times were up in flames but

there was stuff i wanted in there gone

and i know you can't erase your past and

that's not what i'm looking to do but it

felt like i could at least start again

so i have started writing again and i

won't burn these ones and it feels

peaceful and

without standing self-indulgent it's

important it's important to me it's not

important to anyone else it was

important to me that i take that time to

do it so i i would always encourage

people to give it a go

you you've sat and interviewed so many

amazing people um and i've got to speak

to a couple of you know really great

people as well and i started to notice

some like gender differences

um

in

success ambition in

how certain people were much more

comfortable speaking about

their goals their finances their targets

their ambitions than other people what

have you noticed in this arena

oh yeah i know you're hinting dude

it's hard as a

woman and i can only speak from

experience a working mum

to

talk about certain things in a certain