I'm the number one heavyweight in the

world right now and I'm scared to fight

everybody. What about John Jones? I'd be

an idiot otherwise. But now that I

understand fear and what it does for me,

it just fuels me so much in a way that

nothing else can. So, I'll be prepared

to do whatever I need to do. But I just

don't like what he's doing because I

can't function knowing that I trained

for a fight and didn't actually fight

somebody.

Jon Jones is officially retired. Tom

Aspenol is the heavyweight champion of

the UFC. Did you see this coming? And do

you have any idea when you'll be back in

the octagon? I do. Yeah. Yeah. Tom,

you're the only ever British heavyweight

champion of the UFC. So, what advice can

you give young men that are struggling

to find that sense of purpose? It takes

years to become an overnight success.

I've been going since I was 8 years old

and I've been up against so many tests

from career ending injuries to financial

struggles to mental struggles and at one

point we had three kids at the age of 25

and I had no money. I mean, my first pro

fight I got 200 quid. I felt the

pressure trying to be a young guy but

having all this responsibility on me.

Having to borrow money from friends to

buy nappies for my kids so I can keep

living on this dream. But outlasting

people and consistency is massively

underrated. And in today's day and age,

people just have a lot of options. But

that obsessiveness of being 100% focused

on something, you win. Tom, there's this

black box in front of me which contains

something which represents a pivotal

moment in your career. What is the story

behind this?

It was the most devastating thing that

happened in my whole career.

So, ahead of showing you that interview

which we recorded a while ago, I wanted

to call Tom and get his first reaction

to the news that he's now the UFC's

undisputed heavyweight champion of the

world. So, what I'm about to show you is

a conversation I had with Tom hours

after the news was announced that he's

now the undisputed heavyweight champion

of the world. And then I'm going to play

the long form interview that me and Tom

had several weeks ago right here in the

studio. Enjoy. Tom, did you um did you

see this coming?

Uh yes, but I just didn't expect it. Um

when it happened, I expected it. So,

next week I'm going to Vegas. I'm going

for the Well, they say it's the biggest

fight card of the year, a fight card

called International Fight Week.

And I knew that I had some news coming

on International Fight Week. We got wind

that Jon Jones is gonna retire and

they're going to announce it on

International Fight Week, but for some

reason they announced it um last night.

I don't know what that reason is. It

took me by surprise at least. Um but

they announced it last night. What was

your initial honest gut reaction when

you found out he was retiring? Where

were you? What was your first feeling

when you heard that news?

Well, I only knew 100% actually last

night. It was always like rumors of him

retiring. He's putting stuff out on the

media saying that he's retiring because

MMA especially at elite level is quite

there's not many people like you hear

rumors a lot. So I heard rumors from

people close to him that he's going to

retire and that he's not living like an

athlete um who's fighting at the top

level anymore and that he's not

interested and he's not in the gym and

etc. But I knew that there was going to

be a decision made by the UFC coming

soon whether he's going to continue and

um we got it last night for sure. We we

finally got it confirmed last night. So,

I am uh very happy to get this part of

my career behind me in the rearview

mirror now.

But, but how did you feel? Because I

think from the conversation we had,

which we're going to play in a second,

it was clear to me that you wanted to

have Jon Jones on your record. You

wanted to fight him. What I really

wanted is is the undisputed title.

That's really what I was chasing the

whole time. I was never really chasing

one guy. Jon Jones was always just a

bonus because of the sto because of the

resume that he's got and because of the

name that he has and the the status that

he holds within the within the sport.

Like he's so well respected. I think

that would have been a great scalp for

me to have on my resume. But uh

ultimately I was chasing the belt. I was

chasing being the number one heavyweight

fighter in the world, which uh I am and

I can say that I am now, especially with

John not around and he's retired and

that's behind us. But um ultimately the

thing that I wanted really was was the

belt. the fact that John's left the

sport. Obviously, it would have been

better for me career-wise to have that

name. Financially, it would have been

great as well, but um the thing that I

was ultimately chasing was uh the

heavyweight title. And how do you think

about John's decision? Do you do you

view it as a strategic dodge or do you

view it as a genuine sort of closing of

that chapter in his uh of his legacy?

I think that he's entitled to do

whatever he wants to be honest. I'm not

um he's done way more in the sport than

I have. So, he should do whatever he

feels is right. I speaking as as just a

fighter here. If it was if it was so

public

for me personally, I don't know if my

ego could take it having not done it. Um

but that's that's honestly that's his

prerogative. I don't hold any ill will

against him for it. And I'm I'm happy to

move on with my career now that it's

over. Because you got to remember, I've

not fought for nearly a year now because

of this. And I've been healthy the whole

time. I've been in the gym the whole

time. I've been doing exactly what I'm

supposed to do as a high level operating

athlete at the elite level. So I'm glad

that that is behind us. Well, do you in

part, I guess, take this as a bit of a

compliment that there was such huge

public pressure for him to fight you and

actually the route that he chose was to

retire instead of fighting you? I mean,

that's quite a compliment for someone of

Jon Jones stature.

Uh, I try not to let my ego take control

of me. Um, I could see why people would

think that, but to me it's just like

maybe when I've retired I'll cons when

I've retired myself, which is not going

to happen in the next couple of years at

least. Um, I'll think about that kind of

stuff. But for right now, it's just like

we got to focus on another fight. We've

got to get me active. We got to get me

back out there and doing what doing what

I'm supposed to be doing. Cuz right now,

I've been thinking about that whole

situation and being held up and

frustrated for almost a year. And it's

not it's what I love doing. I've been

I've been held back for the whole time

and it's not been very fun to be honest

with you. So my the the ego side of my

brain is like, "Yep, I've kind of beat

him without fighting him." And I did say

that. I've said that the whole time that

I'm going to retire him without fighting

him. Uh but I don't kind of want to harp

on about that really. I want to kind of

just put that behind me and move forward

on my own path. Now I hear and you know,

John Jones is a an unpredictable

individual. So there's still a

possibility that that retirement wasn't

a legit retirement and that he might get

a bit bored and end up, you know,

deciding that he wants to come back and

fight you. Is that something that you

would consider if that were to happen?

I'm sure with where he's at, he can like

jump the queue anytime he wants. So, you

know, this time a year down the line,

we'll have another three or four

contenders knocking on for a title shot,

I'm sure. But anytime someone like him

wants to step up and say, "Listen, I

want to fight again." They're going to

get an immediate title shot. So, uh, I'm

never going to count that out. And I'm

sure that maybe he's, you know, I'm in a

spot in my career where there's not all

that much footage out there on me. Maybe

he sees something on me in the next few

fights and he thinks, you know what, I

can beat this guy. I'm going to come

back and beat him. So mentally, I'm

never counting that out. I think the the

the fight is always it could always pop

back up and come back around on me. So

that's something that I would obviously

accept. But as I said before, I think a

lot of people get it confused over the

last kind of 10 monthsish is that I was

chasing Jon Jones. That was never the

case. I was chasing the the undisputed

heavyweight title. That's it. So, if I

can if I do get the opportunity to put

Jon Jones on my resume, of course, I'll

I'll accept that with open arms. But if

not, I'm content. I'll move forward and

I'll uh create my own legacy without

him. And what what has changed

overnight? Is there as a UFC fan, is

there anything that I'm unaware of that

changes when Dana announces you as the

Undisputed? Does your contract change?

Does Does there anything that changes

other than the fact that you've now got

a sort of a clear path and you're now

the one being chased? You're no longer

chasing. Well, I was on uh cuz I was an

interim champ cuz I was a champion in my

own right as well. So, I I I was already

getting a lot of the uh a lot of the

perks that come with being a champion.

stuff like pay-per-view points is

something that you get when you're a

champion. You also get, you know, uh

pay-per-view points is where you get a

cut of the pay-per-view sales. Okay? So,

I don't want to go into the details of

my contracts, of course, but you'll get

if someone pays, you know, $60 for a

pay-per-view, you might get $2, you

might get $5 per bar, you might get 10

people, different people have different

um different perks in the contract. So,

I I was already having that cuz I was a

I was a champion in my own right anyway.

But yeah, not nothing actually really

changes. Just the fact that there isn't

two belts anymore in the division, which

is great. There's one face, one name,

and one guy in in the division. And to

me, that is what that's what separates

uh MMA from other sports, other fight

sports at least, is that for example, in

boxing, you can have like five, six,

seven, eight, even sometimes different

organization. You got the WBO, the WBC,

the IBO, the IBF, and all these

different ones that I don't even know

about. and they all have different

champions in each organization. Whereas

generally speaking, the number one guy

in the world is the UFC champion. And

before Jon Jones retired, there was two

of us in the division, which is a little

bit of a strange strange conundrum that

I wasn't comfortable being in. I think

that there should be one guy in every

division. And uh now that that John's

gone, obviously we didn't get to fight

about it, which I would have liked. Um,

but at least there's one guy and uh I'm

I'm happy with that moving forward. And

who's the who's the number one contender

now? You're now being chased, right? You

were doing a little bit of chasing in

terms of trying to get that um unified,

but but who in your mind is the number

one contender now for the heavyweight

title belt. Oh, that's uh that's I'm I'm

more than happy being chased. That's

fantastic. I I would rather be the

hunted as opposed to the Hunter because

I' i've been chas I don't like chasing

fights. I like just being the guy and

everyone comes to me. That's fantastic.

So, most the I've actually fought a lot

of the top 10. Um, one of the guys I've

not fought is uh Sir Gana, French guy.

That's a a fight that I was look I was

actually chasing that fight a few times

before. He was he was ducking and diving

around himself a little bit. So, he is

due a little bit of a beating off me. I

look forward to that. Um, couple more

guys down the rankings. A Brazilian guy

Jelton Almeida I've not fought. There's

a guy I've already beat called Alexander

Vulkov who's doing really well for

himself as well. So, who knows? You

never know in the heavyweight division.

There's a couple of up andcoming guys

who I've not mentioned as well. So,

there's some some good fights to be made

over the next couple of years for sure.

If I were to say myself, it'd be great

to see you fight gone in uh in London or

in the UK somewhere um as your next

fight. Do do you have any idea what

you're doing next and when you'll be

back in the Octagon?

I do, but I also want to keep I also

want to keep my job, so there's not much

I can say it to be honest. Um, but yeah,

this year, yeah, I'm going to be

fighting hopefully twice this year.

That's that's my plan at least. I think

I think I've wasted enough time um now.

So, um, we're looking for a quick we're

we're looking to get a fight booked

quick and it's looking like it's going

to be, you know, pretty soon anyway. Um,

and then hopefully if everything goes

well in the first one, um, I'm

uninjured, which is, you know, it's

easier said than done, uh, getting

through a fight with with a guy my size

and and coming out with no injuries.

But, um, if I if I can do that, I would

like to fight at the end of the year as

well. That'd be perfect.

And, uh, are you off to training now?

Are you you're flying out to Vegas, so

I'm assuming you're you're going to the

UFC center out there and starting

training?

No. So, I'm I'm training constantly

regardless if I've got a fight or not.

The only thing that changes for me is

basically intensity in uh in the

sessions, but I'm actually going to

Vegas for well, I am the heavyweight

champion of the world, so they're going

to want me at the big shows. Uh so, I'm

going to I'm going to be showing my face

there, doing a little bit of media and

stuff. I will, of course, be doing a

little bit of training, you know, ju

just different stuff. I'm working with a

new sponsor who I'm going to be with

till the end of my career, which is

Champion. So, I'll be working with them

out there and uh just doing bits for the

UFC, meeting fans and and doing bits of

training, just being around the scene.

And I don't often, to be honest, I'm so

routine and I'm so routine based and

goal focused that I don't like to leave

my home routine and training regimen

that often. So, uh, when I go to the US

and do things like this, I like to do as

much in a short space of time as

possible so I can get back to my, uh,

cuz I know what I know what I need to do

to to be good and to win fights and, uh,

that's be at home and be in my routine

and and be focused. So, I don't like to

leave my routine too much and go

overseas and do all this other stuff.

So, I'll be killing as many birds with

one stone in this trip as possible.

You're um, you're a family man, Tom. I

got a real understanding of that in the

conversation that I'm about to play. Um,

your family very close to you. You're a

father. What's the reaction been like

with your your partner, your your your

kids, your your father, your your

parents over the last couple of hours

since you've been crowned as the

undisputed.

Uh, to be honest, um, it didn't really

make much of a difference. I think a lot

of people said the same thing outside of

my family as well. It was like you were

kind of the champion anyway cuz I think

the way that Jon Jones played it the

last year or so, it just didn't a lot of

people didn't see him as the the unified

heavyweight champion anyway. So, I think

a lot of people close to me, like I told

my kids this morning, they were just

like not bothered at all. Didn't make

didn't make the slightest bit of

difference. I said, "Look, I'm only

telling you so when your friends tell

you at school, you'll know." And they

were like, "Okay, fair enough." That

that was it. There was no there was no

great reaction there. Say to them, what

did you say to them? Well, it was just

my my it's mainly my oldest son because

my my twins, they're a little bit too

young to really understand. They've just

turned six, so they don't really get it.

But my oldest son's nine almost. Um his

friends are following MMA a little bit

more. So, he kind of they started

thinking it's cool now. So, I told my

son, I was like, "Listen, I just let you

know, Jon Jones retired. I'm the

undisputed champion now. I've got, you

know, this one." And he was just like,

"Oh, okay." And I was like, I'm just I

know you're not that bothered. I'm just

letting you know. So if your friends say

anything, you know. And he was like,

okay, thanks. John's probably watching

this. Um he has undoubtedly had one of

the greatest careers in the history of

the UFC up there with the likes of Kabib

and many of the legends through history.

What would you say to him if he was

watching this now?

That's it's a great question. I I don't

I don't know if he will be watching

this. I'm not sure. But if he if he is,

uh I think he's had an amazing career

and I think he should enjoy the rest of

his life. I think if he if he truly

feels like he's done enough, which he

keeps saying that he does, he will be at

peace. He doesn't need me or anybody

else to tell him uh how good he's done.

He should he'll know it himself. So uh I

hope that he's he's enjoying his life.

He's enjoying his family and he's

celebrating his career because it's been

amazing. Tom, uh congratulations. I

think I speak on behalf of a lot of

Brits and really people all around the

world when I say that um you're the

champion I think the UFC especially at

that the heavyweight division has really

been longing for someone who wants to be

active someone who is um seeking the

biggest fights someone who is willing to

fight anybody but also someone that's

just really really relatable and I think

sends a message to all of all of us that

what I'd class as a very normal guy from

humble beginnings can reach the very top

of the professional um pyramid as it

relates to sports and entertainment. So,

thank you so much for representing the

UK in UF in the UFC, especially at the

heavyweight level, which we've never had

before. But, I will all be rooting for

you uh for so many reasons because of

who you are, but also because of the

exciting way that you've um conducted

yourself in and outside of the octagon.

So, I'm going to let you go. Um we're

going to play the interview now that we

recorded a little while ago, but um

yeah, going to be watching your career

very, very closely and um going to be

ringside whenever you fight next. Uh, I

know there's a lot of people that are

going to turn out to support you. So,

thank you so much, Tom. Thank you very

much for having me. And, uh, if you're

there, as always, cuz we know each other

now. And I know it's difficult when you

know somebody personally. Um,

anytime I fight, you got to strap in. Be

ready for anything because it's

heavyweight MMA at the highest level and

anything can happen. So, thank you for

having me, Stephen, and I look forward

to uh to seeing you there. Thank you.

Tom, if I had met you when you were a

kid and I'd asked you, what do you want

to be when you're older, what would you

have said to me?

Well, it depends on the age, of course,

but I think if you would have asked me

from the age of being

9 years old and above, I would have said

that I'm going to be UFC heavyweight

champion at 9 years old. Yeah. As soon

as I kind of like went to a gym and I

realized there's people in this gym who

are adults and they don't have a regular

job and they're just showing up to the

gym every day and fighting every few

months and getting money for it. Like I

was I was literally like this is what I

want to do. So take me back. So where do

you where did you come from for someone

that doesn't know who you are? They

don't know your story. They don't know

Tom Aspenol's origin. Where did you come

from? Um, so I'm from a place I was born

in Sulford, which is like Greater

Manchester, and then I moved to a

different part of Greater Manchester, a

place called Allison. There's not a lot

of stuff going on there to be honest. I

mean, it's just like a normal

workingass blue collar place. Do you

know what I mean? A lot a lot of

families like the parents work in

factories, they

mechanics, they

plumbers. And what were your family in

that context? So, my dad originally

worked in IT. He got paid some

redundancy money and then he decided to

start teaching grappling full-time,

which we're talking when we're talking

like 20 years ago, the grappling

industry in the UK was non-existent. And

obviously, I was quite a I was a

budding, but I wasn't I wasn't even like

a budding prospect at the time. My dad

had no fights at the time, but I was

training and I was enjoying my training

and my dad wanted to spend more time

perfecting me to help me do what I enjoy

a little bit more. So, was he the

inspiration for you to go to the gym the

first time and start training or So,

it's difficult to say because I had like

a bit of a blurred line as to where I

started actually training martial arts.

So, I started training when I was young,

but it was my dad's thing more and I

just used to go with my dad like to

spend some time with my dad and cuz I

didn't really have much else to do. But

I used to always go down to the gym and

when I started training there were no

like kids classes. Like now you can go

to the end of the road and there'll be

an MMA gym with kids classes on with 20

kids in the class. Like that wasn't my

case when I started at 8 n years old.

Like I used to go to the gym there used

to be 10 40 year old guys rolling around

on the floor with each other and I just

used to jump in when there was a smaller

guy available. Otherwise I'd just be

like kicking the football around the gym

or something like that. Like basically

I've grown up in in gyms. But when I

actually started training seriously,

that was probably when I was like 14,

13, 14, something like that. And was

there ever a moment in those early years

where you realized or someone said

something to you that you can still

remember that proved to you that you

were better than normal people at this

thing? I do remember a few instances.

Like I said, I used to train with adults

even when I was a child.

And I was quite aware even from being

young that the adults were like taking

it easy on me, you know, like they were

letting me get position and letting me

do certain things on them and they

weren't really trying as much. And uh I

remember

feeling like the adults are starting

going harder on me. Do if that makes

sense. Does that make sense? I remember

I used to just have all my own way in

training because the adults a lot of the

time were like my dad's friends and his

students and then they would I would

always be around the gym so they'd know

me and they take it easy and stuff like

that. And then I remember like a couple

of the couple of the guys who I trained

with, like I said, I was like 11, 12

years old. And I remember a couple of

the guys like it became a lot more

physical training. Like it became a lot

more competitive whereas before they

were just like letting me do my thing

and then they started fighting back a

little bit more. And then I remember

thinking, ah, well, I must be all right.

like if if they're trying I remember

realizing that people actually started

trying against me and then they finish

around and look like they'd done a

workout a little bit rather than just

played with a kid if that makes sense.

And was that I'm trying to figure out as

well the the thing that encouraged you

to keep going at that point because at

that age you can end up playing

football, you can end up going and

joining this club, you can end up

focusing on some drama class that you're

doing but there must have been something

that kind of held you in this habit. I

mean I definitely tried all that stuff.

I definitely um I mean my area is like

quite a big rugby area. So like rugby

league we play up there and uh I

definitely delved in that a little bit

but I just never really was my thing you

know. I think cuz my dad and my brother

was heavily involved with martial arts

and that's just where I always felt like

safe to a degree is like in the gym. I

know it sounds really weird, but I felt

like when you're involved in martial

arts, it's almost like there can be 10

guys in the room and they can all be

from different backgrounds,

male, female, one guy can be 12 years

old, the other guy can be 65 years old.

One guy's retired, the other guy's at

college, one guy's black, the other

guy's Chinese. It doesn't matter. Like

when you're in there, it none of that

matters. And everyone just respects each

other and gets on regardless of like

race, gender, age,

what the job is. And none of that stuff

matters. Everyone just respects each

other the same. And I was always like

drawn to that more than anything. I was

that's where I always felt my most

comfortable. And especially cuz I was a

bit more of a shy kid. I felt like I

could really express myself through

martial arts. And something else about

martial arts is like cuz it's an

individual sport. it's like always on

you if you do well or not. And I

realized like the more time I put in,

the more I got out of it, like mentally

and physically, like I would get better

the more I did it. Whereas with team

sports, especially rugby because that's

the team sport I've done the most. Like

there would be games where I personally

had had like an amazing game, but the

team had lost and I could see the next

guy not trying as hard as me. or

sometimes vice versa. Sometimes they'd,

you know, I'd had a terrible game, but

the team had won and everyone would be

really happy and I'd be like, "Oh, I had

a bad game." And I couldn't I could

never shake that. I'd always like want

to I always liked control. Control.

Yeah. Being in charge of like my own

thing. And MMA in particular is very

much that it's like if you're not

putting the work in, like you will get

exposed. You will get your ego checked

literally on a daily basis if you're not

doing what you need to do. And I love

that like it gives you a sense of like

accountability for

just your everyday habits like your

thought process, what you're putting in

your body, how much recovery you're

getting, how many reps are you doing in

the gym, everything like everything is

accounted for publicly and I quite like

that. I quite love that actually. Um,

your mother in this picture, where does

she fit into this picture you've painted

for me? And who is she? Uh, she first of

all, she is the nicest woman that has

ever walked the face of the earth. I

think she is such a lovely person. Yeah,

there is literally, you know, when

someone says the term, oh, she's not got

or they've not got a bad bone in the

body, that literally applies to my mom.

But as far as So, my last fight that I

had, which is in Manchester, my home my

hometown. That was the first fight that

my mom's ever been to really. And I'm

already like number one in the world.

I'm like, bloody hell, mom, you've lived

it this long. But yeah, she she is she

just stays away from the MMA side of

things. She is just a mom, which is

great. That's amazing. She is a really

really uh lovely person. Why was that

the first fight she'd ever come to? Cuz

it's scary. And I You didn't want her to

come or No, it's not No, it's not that I

didn't want her to. I I was It's never

been like her thing. So, I would never

like be like, "Oh, mom, can you please

come?" Because I know it's I know like

firsthand, even from like teammates

fighting, how scary it is for me to be

in attendance. So, I would never like

drag along someone who loves me because

it's it's horrendous to be honest with

you. Like, it's such an unpredictable

sport that

you just never know. So, but I think my

mom came because I was like, "Look, Mom,

I don't want to tell you to come or not

come, but this is probably the only time

I'm ever going to fight in Manchester.

Like, I don't know how many fights I've

got left. And I'm I'm under the notion

that I would rather retire a little bit

too early than a little bit too late

because I've seen the way people get

late in the career. And I don't I don't

want to be like that. So I'm not saying

I'm going to retire anytime soon. But

I'm just saying like most of my fights

are in the US now and I don't think

you'll ever have a chance to see me

fight live again. So I think you should

come to this one. And uh she came and

apparently she enjoyed it. Um, as you're

talking about the role that martial arts

has played in your life, it got me

thinking about about young men in

general because young men in general

seem to be really struggling at the

moment when we look at a lot of the

statistics around like suicidal

ideiation and purposelessness and um it

made me as you were speaking I was like

damn I need to do martial arts. So if

there is young men listening to this

that are struggling in their lives in

any way, what advice would you give them

in terms of martial arts or those early

life decisions or even later life

decisions about you know something that

they can do to find that sense of

purpose that you so clearly found?

I mean let me first of all start by

saying I would be completely lost

without it. I think everybody should do

it honestly because I think that

it puts your ego in check massively

because you constantly like every time

you step onto a mat to train you're

getting a you're getting hit in the face

with reality constantly and if you

haven't been

like for me it's like you're getting hit

in the face with reality and if you're

not consistent that reality will hit you

harder and harder each time. So it

creates a sense of like purpose in your

life. You're almost like scared. It's

not it's not fear, but it's like you

don't want to miss because you don't

want to get hit with the reality. Like

you don't want to be inconsistent with

your training because you don't want to

be hit harder by the reality next time

you go. If that makes sense. Makes

perfect sense. I just think that it

gives you just a massive structure in

your life. Not only that, not not to

mention the stuff like look, I'm not

going to sit here and talk about crime

rates or anything like that because I

don't know the the statistics, but I

know that in this country especially,

crime is pretty high right now. Mhm. So,

my friend who's come with me who's

upstairs, Charlie, he does my social

media and he's also a close close friend

of mine as well and he's a similar age

to me. is 32 and he's literally just

started training because I literally

said to him like Charlie I say this to

everybody who's not involved in martial

arts

if you need to and I'm not saying you

need to be a world champion you need to

train every but you need to have a

general idea of how to defend yourself

if it ever happens like you don't need

to be good you don't need to have a

fight you don't need to be preparing to

fight someone in a ring in a cage or

whatever but I think everybody should be

comfortable with the general eneral idea

of how to defend theel if they need to.

Whether that be if you own a house, if

you have children, if you have a

girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever,

if you have somebody who you might need

to protect who can't protect the self or

something that you might need to

protect, you need to have some kind of

idea on on how to protect that in my

that's that's my opinion. Um because

fighting is a scary thing at the best.

It's like I'm the number one heavyweight

in the world right now and I'm scared to

fight somebody. So, like I wouldn't like

to be completely clueless because it

must be so scary and I think that it

would be I I would recommend it to

anybody of any age to do some kind of

martial arts. So, there's a couple of

things you said there which I'm most

certainly going to ask you about. The

first thing you said was about how

martial arts brings the consequence of

like a lack of discipline Yeah. up close

but also increases the consequence. And

I was I was thinking as you were saying

that I was thinking, "Oh my god, this is

so true." Because if I if I'm a

18-year-old guy and I'm sat this on the

sofa at home doing nothing with my life,

the consequence of that is quite hard to

see in the short term. What you're

saying is by doing martial arts, the

consequence becomes weekly and becomes

you're going to get your [ __ ] nose

broken. Yeah. So, so that's motivating

to get you get your life together. And

then the other thing you said is I'm the

number one in the world and even I'm

scared to fight somebody. Yeah. Who?

Who? Yeah. Everybody.

I don't want to fight anybody. I don't I

mean I want to fight professionally. I

love doing that. But I mean as far as

like a a confrontation with somebody.

That's the last thing I'm trying to do.

I don't want to do that with anybody. So

you weren't saying that you're scared to

fight a particular person. Well, yeah.

Yeah. I mean Yeah. I'm scared to fight

everybody. Yeah. And I think that that

for for professional

combat athletes across the board,

whether that's boxing, kickboxing,

wrestling, MMA, whatever you're into, I

think that's like a very very uh taboo

subject is like fear because everybody

wants to be this like big like I'm a

freaking 6'5,

115 kilo guy with like cauliflower ears

and everything like tattoos and the

whole lot. It's pretty difficult to sit

here and say like I'm scared to fight

anybody and like have that and be and be

literally the number one heavyweight in

the world. But kind of the realization

of the fear that I've got

now that I understand fear and what it

is and what it does for me, it just

fuels me so much to do what I do. In

MMA, we have terms like a gym warrior.

people call it like a someone who spars

in the gym really really well and then

they get under the lights and they don't

fight anywhere near what they do in the

gym. Now, generally speaking, that is

because they don't understand fear

properly. And I think I've got in a

place where I completely understand that

fear fuels me in a way that nothing else

can fuel me and I'm completely

comfortable with it. I'm super intrigued

by this. So I want to talk about this um

this idea of fear but also the journey

that you've been on with fear. Yeah. So

have you always been fearful to fight

people? Yeah. And I think that if you're

not, you're either lying to yourself or

you're a complete idiot. Yeah. I think I

think

if you are going to sit in an arena and

the arena's packed to the rims with 20

plus thousand people and there's another

guy over the other side of the arena

waiting to fight you who's trained for

the last 10 weeks and you've got to meet

him in the center of the octagon with

millions of people watching around the

world and know that you can get

separated from your own consciousness

and you're not scared. You're either

lying to yourself or you're just a

complete idiot with your mom watching

for the first time ever.

Yeah. I mean,

I see you guys do the walk outs and I'm

just like,

wow. Yeah, it's crazy. It's hard to ever

comment on someone being good or bad at

something that it takes that much

courage to do that I've clearly not

demonstrated in my own life. So, so

fear. So, you've always been scared to

you've always had fear when faced with

an opponent, but you also alluded to the

fact that there's work that you've done

to overcome that fear or to put it into

perspective, I guess. Yeah. What's that

work? The the gym warrior and the guy

who's under the lights is can be two

different people. And I've seen it a lot

over the years. I've seen it so much.

Um, still see it now. Still see it all

the time. See, when you train, this is

this is my personal opinion. This is not

fact, but this is my personal opinion.

I would say the training aspect is

probably around 80% physical and 20%

mental. The training aspect

on fight night when you are in that

arena and you are you have got them

bright lights beaming down on you and

you can hear the crowd going crazy and

you know that there's millions of people

watching you. You've got them tiny

gloves on. There's another massive guy

stood across from you with his shirt

off. I believe it completely flips and

becomes about 80 plus% mental. I

remember somebody, I actually can't

remember who it was, it might have even

been on a podcast or something saying,

"Look, we spend all this time preparing

physically because to be an MMA fighter,

you have to dedicate a lot of time, and

I mean a lot of time to preparing

physically." So that that can be

you know I train around about between

three and five hours a day possibly on

the physical training and that's not to

mention the stretching, the eating, the

sleeping, the physio,

the sauners, the all the other stuff

that comes with becoming a good athlete.

So I'm probably dedicating a solid

most of the 24 hours a day if you're

going to count sleeping as well, which I

believe is a part of being a

professional athlete

is dedicated to me becoming the best

version an athlete of myself as

possible. Now you're dedicating all that

time to training physically.

How much are you dedicating to mental

the mental aspect? And if you would ask

most fighters, especially at the top

level, you're talking top 10 guys in the

world, what do you think is the most

important aspect, the physical side or

the mental side? I will guarantee at

least 50% of them guys would say the

mental side. Now, if you're comparing

mental and physical, we're spending this

much time on the physical side, but this

much time on the mental side, next to

nothing. And uh I could see a massive

discrepancy in that. And I wanted to

bring the bring the mental side up. So

you're in the mental gym, too. Oh, all

the time. And what is that? A lot of uh

a lot of visualization. Okay. So, talk

me through this. Give me I want as much

detail as possible. Okay. Okay. So, I

work with a hypnotherapist, which I

think is very important. Yeah. I write

stuff down.

I have stuff where I can see it. I'll

look at that a lot. Even stuff like I'm

just a massive daydreamer. massive

daydreamer

and

I can just see in my mind clearly this

is something that's programmed into me

for years and years and it's almost like

mental see in MMA we have a term and I

don't know if this goes across the board

but we call it drilling so like if

there's a technique if you're practicing

like a want to and you're doing it

repeatedly you call it drilling you're

drilling a want to drilling is like

repetition repetition I like mentally

drill situations so when you're talking

about the walk out. When I'm physically

walking out mentally, I've walked out

10,000 times before I've actually

physically walked out. So, by the time

I'm there physically, I've been there so

many times mentally that it feels quite

quite normal to me. And then I

constantly tell myself that I got to

enjoy it because I'm completely aware

now, especially

I'm closer to the end than I am the

beginning now. Definitely. I don't know

when I'm going to retire. I have no

plans to retire right now, but I'm

definitely close to the end than I am

the beginning. And the moments that we

have, these walk out moments, these fear

moments of being stood in the cage with

another guy who stood in the cage with

me. And we know that once these

officials get out of the ring and they

close that cage, we are going to fight

and someone is going to win and

someone's going to lose. Like those are

really special moments and you have to

enjoy them because when I'm 60 years old

and I hopefully I've got grandkids and I

can I want to be telling them about

these special moments and not wishing

them away and really really enjoying

them. And that's something that mentally

I try and practice being in the moment

and enjoying it a lot. And I feel like a

lot of fighters they just

they're just so stressed about the end

result that they can't even focus on

enjoying the self in the right now. And

I know for me personally

when I'm enjoying myself that's when I

do my best. So I want to enjoy myself. I

want to talk to you about a few things

you said there. You talked about

visualization was what you mentioned

first and writing things down. What kind

of things do you write down and like

what what's your pro your whole process

there? Cuz I'm sure there's people at

home that would love to understand some

of these practices so that they can

implement them in their own life and

then also speak to the the value that

it's brought to your life doing these

kind of things. You talk about

visualization. People think about this

like weird woo woo kind of thing. Sit

sitting there with crystals on you and

weird music and meditate. It's not like

that. It's as simple as getting a piece

of paper, writing down this week I will

do this and enjoy it. That as simple as

that. That that's all I do. This year I

will win two fights. I will enjoy both

of them and I will perform to my best.

And just reading it every so often. And

how often do you do that? Is it

something you do at the start of the

year or is it just like sporadically?

really I'm not it's not something I I'm

not the kind of guy who goes right the

beginning of the year this is my uh

visualization board or anything like

that. Not that there's anything wrong

with that. That's just not what I do

personally. I just write when I feel

like writing stuff I'll write it and

most of the time I've got it in my

bedside table or I've got it somewhere

that I can see it and I'll pick it up.

I'll read it a few times the same

sentence. I'll put it down and I feel

like it's in there. I wrote recently

that things are working for me.

because I'm in a really weird situation

with my career that I've never really

been before

where um there's a lot of politics

involved in my my kind of next move with

John Jones. Yeah. I think I said to you

like off camera he's like usually it's

like right get off at the fight work

towards the fight

fight's over little bit of downtime

another fight work towards that fight

over blah blah blah. Whereas now I'm

just kind of like a little bit in limbo

when I don't know what's happening and

I'm just like ah usually I'm used to

like having my life mapped out as to

when I need to dedicate more time to

this and how much what training partners

coming there and what I need to focus

on. But now I'm just in a little bit

limbo where I don't know really what's

going on and I wanted to really write

down just to solidify that

all this is happening cuz I think when

when you are in those kind of situations

I know me personally I start to like

conspire in my own like that everyone's

conspiring against me like oh this is

not working out for me and I start

thinking negatively but I think

sometimes you just got to write down

like this is going to be all right like

this is whatever's happening right now I

don't know what it is and I I don't

know. I can't fix it personally cuz it's

nothing to do with me, but I know that

it's going to work. It's going to end up

all right and it's going to work out for

me. So, a couple of weeks ago, I

remember just writing that down, putting

it in the thing next to my bed. And uh

sometimes when I'm waking up, I'm

feeling a bit stressed. I'll just read

it, put it away, and then that's it. So,

any moment, maybe today, maybe now,

maybe your phone upstairs could have a

text message on it from Dana White

saying, "We're good to go." Yeah, pretty

much. I am now like training. I'm I

mean, I'm always training anyway.

training is a massive part of my life,

but I could get a text at any moment

telling me I'm gonna fight in six weeks

and that would be amazing. Um, and it

would be the biggest fight of all time.

Yeah, but I don't think that's going to

happen because they are giving it that

it's the definitely in my opinion

there's a few massive fights to be made

at the moment in MMA. Uh, but I think as

far as thirst from fans, this is the one

that people want to see the most. Um,

when I say that, does it make you

nervous? Uh everything I just said when

I said it was the biggest fight of all

time. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. That's what

I want to do. Yeah. That's what I want

to be involved with. Yeah. That's that's

why we do this thing. We don't like I

have had a lot of fights

that nobody cared about in all honesty.

Like I've had a lot of fights. I think

don't people don't realize like they see

me and other guys at the top of the

division. You know, we're traveling the

world. We're making money. We're winning

titles. We're doing all this good stuff.

Honestly, most of my fights there was a

hundred people there and I came away

with 100 quid cash and nobody gave a

[ __ ] either way. Yeah, that's uh and

that's that's the realization of it.

Like MMA is such a tough sport to like a

lot of kids, not a lot of kids, but a

lot of parents if I meet a parent on the

street whose kids involved in MMA or

whatever, a lot of the time will say

like, "Oh, what advice have you got

for?"

And in all honesty, a lot of the time

I'm like have a backup plan because it's

so difficult to make any money out of uh

or any like I was saying I'm going to an

event tomorrow actually. It's a local

show. I was a amateur champion on the

show. It's a great show. Do you know

what I mean? There'll be there'll be a

couple of thousand people there tomorrow

and it's a there's got a big fight card.

Like there's maybe 20 fights on. So

there's 40 fighters fighting tomorrow

night. I'm going to it. And uh I was

chatting to to my friend last night

actually said, "Oh, is there anyone uh

decent on the couch?" "Yeah, yeah,

there's a couple of guys on." And he

said, "Oh, will will anybody go to the

UFC?" And we just got chatting about

that and and how that looks and how it

looks to get in the UFC. And and I said

to be honest with you, if one person out

of the 40 can buy a house from MMA,

I would be very surprised. And that's

one in 40 decent level. Like it's just

so hard to make a living out I've ever

made. There is absolutely no career path

to doing it really, especially in this

country. Like it's getting tougher and

tougher. And I'm trying to I'm trying to

raise as much awareness about MMA as

possible. I want kids to be able to look

at guys like me and other guys and be

like, if he's making a career out of it,

I can. But it is so hard in this

country. That's why I'm doing as much as

I can to try and get this thing as

mainstream as possible. I mean, even in

the UK, if I think there's been what,

hundreds of thousands of kids that

probably practiced MMA over the last

couple of years, and how many of them

really get to the point where they could

buy a house from it, you know, you can

name them like, you Conor McGregor, Ian

Garry, Patty Pimlet, Leon Edwards. I

mean, there there's definitely guys who

who have made a lot of money out of it

and and have a good living, but

honestly, like I've been around gyms all

my life, and I would say 95% of people

have never made more than five grand for

a fight. How much were you getting paid

throughout your amateur career? Cuz you

were an amateur fighter up until the

point where you basically ran out of

people you could fight. Y um I think you

had nine amateur fights, right? Nine,

which at the time was quite a lot. I

would always recommend get as much as

much experience as you can as an amateur

before you move on to pro. But yeah, so

as as an amateur, I was obviously

getting ticket money. So I'd sell sell

So the way it worked when I was fighting

as an amateur at least it was like if

you would sell a ticket for 30 quid, you

would get a fiverr of it. So the the

promoters would work off that like a

little percentage thing going. So of

those nine amateur fights, how much you

think you all together?

I was maybe making between 50 and 100

quid a fight. Okay. Okay. So, that's

nearly a grand. Yeah. Nearly. Yeah.

Nearly a grand on that. And then you

went you had a professional run as well.

Was it seven fights as a professional in

MMA?

Before I got to the I have no idea.

Before I got to the UFC, probably Yeah,

maybe seven. Yeah. Down as seven. So, I

remember my first pro fight, I got 200

quid. Okay. So, you you doubled doubled

it. Smashing it. I was absolutely

smashing it then. So, so that's Yeah.

Another So, you probably made two grand

or something there. And then the UFC

pays much better. Much better. much

better, which is when you can start to

make a living from it. Yeah. I mean,

they start off pretty good. Uh the thing

I'm really lucky in the fact that I've

got a fan friendly style, so people want

to see me fight, especially

heavyweights. People want to see a lot a

lot of the people like who are not

they've not got a technically trained

eye. They want to see two guys punching

each other and one guy unconscious. That

that's that's the brutality of it. And

that's the that's the reality of it. And

my style, generally speaking, brings

that. Well, I mean, generally speaking,

don't you hold the world record for the

average fastest time I do. Yeah. That a

fight ends. Yes. Yeah. Which is pretty

crazy. So, I mean, that's why you're

such a draw, right? Cuz you're knocking

everyone out within 2 minutes on

average. Yep. Yeah. So,

like you I progress through contracts

and money quite quickly because of my

style, but not everybody does. So,

generally speaking, you get in the UFC,

you get what's called show money, which

is your money to show up, which is what

what can you tell me? Usually, it's 10

grand. Yeah. Dollars. Yeah.

And I mean, people's contracts are

different, but I'm just speaking

generally. People start off at 10 and

10. They get show money, win money. So,

generally speaking, and this this varies

amongst, you know, if someone's got a

career in another big organization,

sometimes they'll sign him for more than

that, but I was coming off a regional

show, so I I think I I either got 10 and

10 or 12 and 12, I can't remember. But

generally speaking, it's like you get

your show money, which is between 10 and

15k dollars, and then your win bonus is

double your show money usually. So, 10

and 10, 12 and 12, 15. How long are you

on that contract? They usually do four

fights. Okay. But the thing is they can

terminate that at any time. So if you're

in like a fight that's boring, it's a

bit of a stinker. Even if you win, they

can just be like, "Yeah, we're done.

Done with that." Interesting. Yeah. So

if it's four fights, you're getting 10

and 10. You could earn that's 80k. If

you win, you usually go up. So it' be

like 10 and 10, 12 and 12, 14 and 14, 16

and 16, something like that. Okay. The

low end is you could make 80K from those

first. Yeah. But if you lose, you're

just getting 10. That's the uh Oh, yeah.

You can make 40K. Yeah. And generally

speaking, like if you go 10 and 10, you

win. You go 12 and 12, you win. You go

14 and 14, but you lose that one, you go

back to 12 and 12. Does that make sense?

Okay. But if you have an exciting style

and the UFC like you, see, I'm very

lucky because I'm from the UK and people

from the UK get behind the fighters a

lot of the time and I'm very lucky that

I've got that myself. So I did

10 and 10 and then I think

12 and 12 if I remember rightly. And

then they resigned me then because I had

two first round finishes. Oh. So they

resigned me for a bigger contract then

which was great. And then I they sign me

for another four fights and then you

know you win a couple more in exciting

fashion and you can you can get bigger

contracts. You don't have to stay for

the four. So after two fights you got a

new deal. Yes. And that drastically

changes the money. Yes. Yeah. Like from

still in the tens. Still in the tens.

Yeah. Bigger tens. 50s. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Cuz I thought it was 50. I thought

that I thought um someone like Ian Gary

who came in from uh what's the

organization he came in? Cage Warriors.

Cage Warriors. I also came in from Cage

Warriors. Oh, okay. So he must have been

I thought he was on 50. I mean he might

have been he might have been like yeah

maybe he was I don't know like I say it

varies from person to person but from my

experience I came in is either 10 and 10

or 12 and 12. I can't remember exactly.

And when does the big the big like six

figure show money begin? So

I got a a good contract because I took

the title fight on two weeks notice. So

I was in a bit of a position there where

like I could kind of like save the card

because there was a title fight on the

card. Somebody pulled out. They asked me

to step in. So you know I was in a

position that the UFC was kind kind of

like needed me a little bit then. So um

but to answer the question, everyone's

different with that. But with the money

aspect, it's like when you start

becoming popular and winning fights that

when people want to see you basically.

That's it's just as much about do people

want to watch you fight. That's that's

like a bit it's not just about winning

fights. Winning fights is extremely

important, but

you you got to make people want to see

you. So that was against Ser Sergey

Pavlovich. That's right. In that was in

the the end of 2023. Yes. November. And

that was your first six figure payday

because you took that massive fight on

short notice. Yes. It was your biggest

payday? It was my biggest paid uh at the

time. I got a bigger one in my last

fight. Oh, but it was your biggest

payday up until that point? By far. By

far. By far. By how much far? By more

than double. More than double. Okay. And

that was a six figure payday. Yes. Okay.

The reason why that's so surprising and

interesting is because you were fighting

at that point for the interim

heavyweight title. Yeah.

So, I'm thinking about those kids back

in Sulford. Yeah. And if they if they

want to get a life-threatening six

figure, cuz that's what it is. Six

figure payday. Then the journey that you

went on is from the age of what? Seven

years old. You started seven, eight,

something like that. Yeah. Till you were

30 years old. Yeah. So, 23 years for you

to get a six figure payday from a

heavyweight UFC title. It's a long time.

It's a lot of work. Yeah, it's a whole

lot of work. Yeah. I was thinking about

your story arc and if if you were to

like paint it on a graph, like draw on a

graph. Am I right in thinking it's like

slow, flat, and then quite sudden? Oh,

yeah. There's a lot Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There's there's a lot of that gone

on. They say, don't they something like

it takes years to to become an overnight

success or whatever. And that's exactly

what I'm dealing with. Yeah. Yeah. It's

crazy. Like you say, I've been going

since I was 8 years old. And the stuff

that I've gone through in that time is

unbelie I'm a massive believer in like

just outlasting people like just being

consistent and outlasting people a lot

of the time overtakes

anything else like there's so many times

and a lot of it is down to my dad as

well is like I've wanted to quit and

he's just remind don't get me wrong I I

have quit a couple of times uh with MMA

and uh it's been like, "Tom, I think you

really need to think about this because

you've been spending your whole life

doing it. Like, don't quit now." You

know what I mean? Like, there's been a

lot of that from my dad. And, uh, I

think a lot of other dads would have

just been like, "Yeah, you've done

enough now. You've tried your best. Just

leave it at that." Whereas, it's always

been, you know, my dad's always believed

in me. Uh, and my mom as well, not not

just my dad. And a lot of close people

around me as to be honest. I'm very

lucky in that regard that uh people have

pushed me to continue which is great.

When was the first time you quit? I've

quit quite a lot of times mate to be

honest.

A lot of different reasons. Um so many

of the reasons injuries. Yeah. Tough.

Very very very tough to deal with

injuries as a professional athlete. Not

getting regular fights is also tough.

See now I'm like was complaining to you

a minute ago about I've not got a fight

this that and the other. But I'm going

to get a fight. the the thirst from the

fans is there that the UFC want me to

fight. I've got a belt I got to defend.

We got to unify this. There's there's

millions of dollars at stake here. Like

I'm gonna fight soon. I don't know when

it's going to be. But at one point,

nobody cared if I fought or not. And I

had no money. And that that I think the

the toughest time for me was so I I had

my first kid when I was 23. Wife was

pregnant when she was 22. When we were

22 and first kid at 23.

And then when I was 24, we found out

that she was pregnant again and which

I'm very happy about, of course. I don't

want to seem like it's a negative thing.

And that we're having twins.

And

we had the twins. Everything's great.

And I had no money. And I mean, I didn't

have any money at all. And I'm like

living on this dream of

me

becoming this global superstar with

these millions of pounds in the bank and

with these titles and travel. I'm living

on that dream,

but I'm in Athen Greater Manchester.

It's raining outside. I can't afford to

put fuel in my car and I've got three

kids upstairs crying. Do you know what I

mean? That that's that's what I was on.

And I really felt like at the time

I don't I don't want to say like I'm

some big masculine guy or anything, but

I felt a little bit demasculated if

that's all right. I felt like I'm here

with this wife and kids and I ain't

providing nothing like and that was

really tough for me mentally at that

time where I'm like how am I going to

provide for all these people like I got

to do something else because and I felt

I don't think that people around me were

like

Tom's living in a dream world he needs

to get a proper job and earn some money

for his family and kids. I don't think

people cuz there was a lot of people

around me who actually believe believed

in the dream as well which is amazing

but I felt the pressure I felt like

people felt like that a little bit even

if they weren't saying it. So uh that I

think for me was the the toughest time

for me I think is when just after I've

had my kids I'm away training every day.

I'm I'm barely spending any time at the

at home. When I am spending time at home

I'm completely exhausted from training.

The kids have me up all the time.

They're crying. My wife's not happy.

I've got no money. I train all this

time, go to fight, then it gets canceled

a week before. Do you know what I mean?

That was really, really tough to deal

with at the time. How do you from a

mental health perspective, how how were

you during that season of life? Not

great. Very, very tough. I think

first of all,

I mean, everybody's different, but

having three kids at the age of 25 is

quite tough. I don't think I was well I

wouldn't change it for the world. I

absolutely love being a dad. Love my

kids to death. They're the most

important thing in my life. Um I

wouldn't change it for the world. But I

think now looking back of me like seven

years ago having three children. I don't

know how I did it. It was really really

tough. Like I think that's really young

and like I was very underdeveloped

mentally to have that kind of

responsibility and raise children and a

family and a house and have a wife and

try and get my career off the ground.

Like it was really really tough at the

time. So I think I was just in survival

mode to be honest with you. Actually

it's funny you should say cuz I've been

having these conversations recently with

a couple of friends. He's like my friend

now is having twins. He's just found

out. He asked me, "What's it like?" And

I said, "To be honest with you, and I'm

going to be really honest because I I

pride myself as a nice person. It was

the hardest thing I've ever done. I

can't even remember the first year. And

I can't because it was so difficult."

And it wasn't just the twins. It was

also

the money situation, fact is not going

anywhere, the stress I was under, just

the trying to be a young guy, but having

all this responsibility on me. But like

I said, I absolutely wouldn't change it

for the world. It's it's literally

shaped me into the person that I am

today, and I'm really really proud of

where I am now. But uh at the time, it

it was very tough for me mentally. Was

there was there a hardest moment that

you reflect on? Cuz sometimes when we

think back to our lives, we can remember

like a vivid rock bottom where something

happened, we went to put petrol in the

car or and or when we we were alone and

our mind started saying dark things to

us. Was there a rock bottom in that

period of life?

I don't I I was still like aware of how

um lucky I was to have like three

beautiful children and and still be

chasing the dream that I was on, but I

think I just hated owing anybody money.

Like I felt like I just hate going to

people and asking them for money. Like

that was like my worst nightmare. And I

had to lend like borrow a lot of money

off my dad. uh to borrow some money off

friends just to put fuel in the car to

get to the gym to be living in what I

thought at the time was like a

makebelieve I I didn't think it was a

makebelieve dream but I think I feel

like the people on the outside thought

what is he doing like what is this guy

doing like he needs to like look after

his family like I felt I felt that a lot

and a lot of that might have just been

in my own psyche to be honest with you a

lot of it I don't think came from my

close circle but I remember like having

to borrow money from friends to like put

fuel in my car, buy nappies for my kids

and stuff like that just so I can like

keep living on this dream of having a

fight in 6 weeks, getting 600 quid and

being able to give him 20 quid back.

Like that was it's to it was tough. Does

that not put a lot of pressure on the

relationship? Cuz I mean, bloody hell,

relationships are hard enough without

twins, another child, um, and everything

else that makes life in relationships

difficult. So, it's quite remarkable

that, you know, being in a relationship

is not easy in in any in any

in any in any regard. Being in a

relationship and sharing your life with

somebody isn't easy. Um,

yeah, it did. It did. But, you know

what? We got through it and we're really

strong and I'm really uh happy with the

family unit that we've built. I try and

be the best dad that I can be. Like,

that's more important than anything else

to me. Um, is just spending time and

making my kids um as good as I can. And

I'm aware that as a dad and as a parent,

you can't

control as such what your kids, you

can't mold a kid into what you want it

to be. You can't say like cuz I got

three kids and they're all completely

different. They're all brought up

exactly the same, but they're all

completely different. And you can never

say this is what my kid's going to be

and this is who he's going to be and how

he's going to be. But just to be able to

hopefully bring some kind of positive

outlook on their life and and hopefully

give them a positive experience on this

earth is uh what I'm looking to do. Your

your partner, you're married to Justina.

Yeah. Did she understand? Oh, she

understands more than anybody. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. If it wasn't for her,

my dad, my mom, couple of friends

around, I would have been Yeah. I would

have been a mess. Absolute mess. Yeah.

She was very understanding because I

know that most women

they would have been putting the

pressure on big time. Yeah, she was it's

because when we met I've been with her

since I was 19. She was 19 also were the

same age. Um that was my dream from the

beginning. So she like got on board with

that. Um and she's kept me she's stopped

me from quitting a lot of times as well.

She stopped me from quitting so many

times. Yeah. is this sport's tough and

like I said there's no so in football

for example I know a little bit about

football

you start from a grassroots team as a

kid then you go to an academy and then

you can get signed at the age of like 12

13 and start playing for the under 13s

and professional club and there's a

place where you can go and obviously

football's a tough game they can cut you

off like that as well but at least

there's a career path of what you're

going to do and where you're going to go

whereas MMA you're basically shooting in

the dark for 95% of it Um, and I'm very

lucky to have people like my wife, my

family, my uh mom and dad, and the

people around me who believe in me as

well. Yeah, it's I mean, we started

talking about this because of that that

kind of graph of your career where it's

kind of flat relative to what then

happened and then quick all of a sudden.

And even when you think about the

financials, it's like very very little.

And then if you get all the right forces

behind you in terms of like personality

and timing and then someone drops out

here, you get the interim shot, you win,

then things take off. And that is it's

also remarkable to me that it's happened

in such a short period of time. Um

relative to how long you've been doing

this because yeah, when I looked down

and I saw that this was 2023. Yes. But

you got that shot, you're kind of a new

face on the scene to some degree

relative to some of some of these other

guys. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I

think the new generation is definitely

coming in now in in uh like the old

guard, the old champions are kind of

they're at the back end of the career

and now it's time for um new guys which

is that's progression. That's that's

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So Tom, there's this black box in front

of me which um contains something which

represents a pivotal moment in your

career. What is in the box? We remove

the belt. I mean, it's not I'll be

honest, mate. It's not that exciting.

Interesting. It probably stinks as well.

You probably smell it from over there.

I'm okay. It's clean. It's clean,

actually. It's not too bad. This is a

This is a knee pad. Okay. I

What is the story behind the knee pad?

Why did you bring that? So,

first of all, I've had a knee problem

for a long time. I started the knee

problem when we were talking about the

things that we've just been talking

about, the financial struggles, and I

knew that I was never kind of like one,

two fights away from getting to the UFC.

So, I wanted to train through the knee

problems. Then I got to the UFC.

I'm training. I I fight, I win. Oh, my

knees knees all right. I'm doing like

I'm doing pretty well here. like I can

fight with one knee, fight again, I win.

Then I get a new contract and then I

fight, they offer me another fight. I

don't want to say no to the UFC. I'm on

this roll. I've still got this bad knee.

I'm training with one leg. And you're

training with one leg? Yeah, I train

with one leg for a long time. Yeah,

pretty much. I never kicked with the

leg. I never went on the knee ever or

anything like that. Anyway, this kept

going and going. I was fighting with one

leg.

Then the most devastating thing that

happened in my whole career was my knee

just give out in front of 25,000

home fans in the Ult arena in London

in what was a title eliminator fight. So

if either of us would have won that

fight, we would have got a title shot

next. So it's a massive fight with with

title implications.

And not only did I lose the fight

because of the injury, uh losing the

fight is one thing. Like if I go in

there, I have a good fight, I I show off

all my training, but I get knocked out,

for example. Like even though I'm going

to be sad that I've lost the fight, I am

relatively satisfied that I went in

there,

I had a go, came up short. Like I I can

live with that.

Whereas with the knee, I went in there,

got injured straight away. The knee was

down. I couldn't walk. I had surgery and

then I was unsure whether my career was

going to be over or not. And that was a

massive massive turning point in um in

my life. Not just in my career, but in

my life. um that really really gave me a

chance to think and slow down and figure

out what's important and what isn't. And

uh that all came because of one of the

biggest worst thing that's happened in

my life, but one of the most important

things as well. And one of the I got the

most growth from that knee injury than

I've got from anything else in my life,

I think. What kind of growth emerged

from that? At the time, I was doing a

lot of things wrong in my personal life

and in my professional life. like I had

a lot of people around me that shouldn't

have been there. I was doing some

training sessions and training with

people that I shouldn't have really been

training with. Um

I wasn't living a good lifestyle in

terms of diet and my recovery. I wasn't

100% focused and I should have been but

because everything was going so well and

I'm a little bit

uh what's like superstitious. I didn't

want to change anything because I'm like

well it's going well. I don't want to

start changing it. And I knew that there

was a lot of things wrong. I knew that

there were people that I shouldn't have

been surrounding myself with. I knew

that there were training sessions that

were just wasting my time really. And

there were um toxic people around me

that shouldn't have been there. And and

I need they needed to go, but I didn't

want to change everything because it was

all going so well. And when when you

talk about like a rock bottom moment,

when you sat on the floor of the UFC

octagon in the old arena with your leg

up in the air and there's 25,000 people

who are there for you um start leaving

the building, it's a bad feeling. It's a

really bad feeling. So that really rate

made me like reassess um some of the the

decisions I was making at the time. and

the Tom Aspenol before and after that

moment completely different people. I

feel like I completely rebuilt myself,

not only physically cuz I think you can

look you can look at me physically in

fights before and see a physical change

just in terms of my physique and the way

I'm moving around. Obviously I had one

leg before and I've got two legs now

which is way better. But mentally the

growth has been enormous is that I

completely cut out anything negative

that was in my life. Anything that

wasn't anything or anyone that wasn't

serving me to become like run parallel

with my journey to becoming the best

heavyweight in the world I completely

cut off and because because I was so

superstitious I think. But but why

why did you why was it so important for

you to remove those people at that

particular moment? As an athlete, I

needed to and not only as an athlete, as

as a as a man, I needed to really slow

down cuz I was on this like fast track.

It's like I got in the UFC and it was

just like fight fight fight and every

time it's like more and more popular,

more interviews, more media, more fame,

more money, more this that and and I

didn't really have time to like assess

really what was around me and I didn't

have time to like start cutting people

off and start changing this and tweaking

this and doing I just didn't see it

because I was on this like I was just

going and going and going and when I had

that and next minute I'm sat on the

couch for six months with this big cut

on my I can't walk. I'm doing physio and

doing all the rest of it. And um yeah, I

just feel like as an athlete and a man,

I really had that time to slow down and

and really assess my life and be like,

"This isn't working. It needs to

change." That was actually the closest

point where I was pretty close to

throwing in the towel then to be honest

on my career because

at that point I'd not made like mega

money or anything but I'd made enough

money to like be comfortable and

I bought a house at that time. I'd made

some decent money, but nothing like

life-changing. But I'd made enough money

to then,

I don't know, be living my life to an

all right, you know, standard for

however long. Um, I was like, well, I'm

financially comfortable now. I've had

some fights in the UFC. I've had some

success. I was I think I was just

outside the top five at that time or

something, maybe top 10. You know, I've

gone way further than a lot of people

have done. Maybe I'll just like leave it

there. Was there an element of you that

wondered if the public would ever want

to see you again? Oh, of course. Yeah.

Yeah. Of course. Yeah, definitely.

Because I didn't have an actual fight. I

felt like people thought I faked the

injury or something. So, I think like a

lot of people thought, yeah, he didn't

he didn't really want to be in there

with that opponent. I felt because

especially my opponent at the time,

Curtis Blaze, he was like running

through everybody. Um, and I felt like a

lot of people were like Tom just didn't

want to fight. So I felt like very

insecure about myself at the time and I

really like when I came back I really

had like a chip on my shoulder and I

still got it that like I want to I want

to prove to everybody that like I'm the

best heavyweight in the world. You got

six months on the sofa. Did you read

things people are saying? I tried not to

but I always do.

I try not to but um yeah but I think I

think it's quite healthy in a way though

as well. I think it that fueled me a lot

as well is that people started quitting

on me and stuff and a lot of people even

like people were like yeah you know you

got a lot of ways to make money now like

you've already done loads of media you

know you're good you're good on the mic

and stuff you can maybe be a pundit and

stuff like that for a time I was like

yeah maybe I can maybe I can just like

you know be a pundit and you know I've

been in there I've main evented a couple

of times and stuff I've been fought

almost the elite level yeah maybe I

maybe I can just do that but And I

started reading these negative comments

and I was like actually I want to fight

like what what is this? Well, like where