Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Yep. We're up. Okay. We were trying to

figure out how long it's been since uh

you came in. It's been somewhere in the

neighborhood close to 5 years.

>> Yeah. A lot of water under the bridge.

>> Your appearance on this show. Boy, did

that create a lot of problems.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. I I didn't expect you ever

having me on again. I thought maybe

Spotify was just going to say, "Hell

no."

>> No, you were right. Like, this is a

victory dance. Like, it turned out that

all your warnings and all the things

that you were saying about the problems

turned out to be true.

>> Well, thanks. I know you've said that on

a few shows. Every time you do, somebody

sends me a clip and sees, "Hey, Rogan

said you did the right thing."

>> What was it like for you? First of all,

uh, you know, they were trying to label

you a quack and a k and didn't know what

they were talking about.

>> It didn't I don't think it worked with

everybody. I mean, it worked with people

that weren't paying attention,

>> but anybody that really paid attention

to your background said, "No, this guy's

very credible." I mean, don't you have

like nine patents on mRNA vaccine

technology?

>> Yeah, on the mRNA. Yeah. And total of

about 15, I think.

>> Yeah. And you also took the vaccine and

had a horrible adverse event,

>> a series of them. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That that at the time it was so early.

That was when the National Guard was

still doing it and that was Madna. And

um the I was embarrassed uh by to have

these experiences.

Um and I was embarrassed when I got

COVID in early 2020. Um, you know,

looking back,

uh, there was so much so much fear, um,

so much,

uh,

anger and anxiety and everything wrapped

around all of this.

>> And in retrospect, it was, you know, it

was promoted, but it was also

very organic. uh you know it was it was

you know looking back being honest about

it it was a frightening time what was

happening and um

and yeah I I you know I had those

experiences uh my uh doc who was a

cardiologist was like why were you so

stupid to take this uh

>> your doctor said that too in 2021

>> yeah um she was

>> 2020 or 20 what

>> it was 2021

2021 one. Yeah. Um I was going to a kind

of a a cardiologist that had left um

traditional medical practice at uh UVA

and the associated um hospitals and I

was going to her for uh hormone

replacement therapy and uh bioidentical

hormone replacement therapy and um she

was monitoring a lot of things and and

um yeah that was her response. Why did

you do this? Of course, I've had that

question a thousand times since, you

know, why were you so stupid? You were

the one that should have known. Um, and

so I have to answer that still. It's

kind of gets a little tiresome. But

>> what was your perspective on the vaccine

before you took it?

>> Um,

to be honest, I I was a little I was

amazed.

Uh I was amazed that the that the claims

that the problems that I encountered

when I had been working on it had been

solved. Uh I didn't see how that could

be the case, but I knew that a huge

amount of money had been thrown at it.

So it was possible.

>> What were the problems?

>> Uh in my hands it was inflammation

primarily. It was also you the it was

absolutely not localizable.

uh it was in in the monkey models that

we tested it was incredibly

inflammatory. It didn't give long um

levels long prolonged levels of

expression. It was hard to make. It was

kind of back then it was uh a almost a

little bit of witchcraft. You'd drop I

mean for me as a graduate student when I

was doing that it was incredibly scary

because it was a couple thousand dollars

worth of reagents in a little tiny tube.

And you know, back in the late 80s, that

was real money. And uh and it didn't

always work the reaction. So, you know,

it was it was a little bit of a wing in

a prayer. Uh but then um as I started

working with with animal models and with

the different formulations, I could come

up with a variety of different compounds

and formulations that worked pretty well

in cell culture, but not so well in

animals.

And uh I spent a lot of time trying to

do that, optimize that. And what I ended

up with is just seeing that it it really

caused, you know, I'm sorry to use

medical jargon. I'm that's kind of where

I'm from. So that's the language.

>> No, it's probably better if you it

caused a lot of inflammation. Uh you

know, white cell infiltrates, really

aggressive white cell infiltrates in my

hands in both mice and monkeys. And I'd

abandoned it as as something that just

uh you know was was useful in in

research in particularly in cell

culture, but I just didn't see it

maturing as a as an efficient delivery

strategy with uh low risk, you know,

acceptable risk in animals. And that

also became the experience in uh at this

company that I had first joined where a

lot of the original patents were filed

VCL. Uh they they abandoned the RNA

because they couldn't make it. uh and uh

they turned largely to this strange

discovery that we had that was a

negative control that the RNA alone or

DNA alone was actually more effective in

animal models, mice for instance, than

it was uh to use the positively charged

fats. This now people call them lipid

nanoplexes. Lots of fancy words around

it. It was just positively charged fats

of various types that were mixed that

bind the DNA or the RNA and and kind of

spontaneously assemble.

And a lot of work went into trying to

improve that. We did what we could in

the 90s when I was at Davis to try to

advance that technology and develop new

lipids. And we had a number of them get

patented and they were marketed by

Promega and others but uh could never

solve the uh delivery in vivo. But this

group up in University of British

Columbia that had been banging away at

this kind of related liposome tech for

years and years even before you know I

had known anything about it. uh were the

ones that's kind of came up with the

magic sauce that uh is used essentially

by both the Madna and Fizer products and

that's the stuff that we've all been um

exposed to those that have taken it. So

when you were first experimenting you

said the it couldn't be localized. So

meaning that in the injection site it

was supposed to be there and then your

body was supposed to produce antibodies

because of the injection.

>> Yeah. And it goes all over

>> but it went all over the body. It does.

But the assertion what they were telling

you when you got the shot initially was

that it was not going to leave the

injection site.

>> Yeah. And I and I called uh my

colleagues uh um at University of

British Columbia that I had known back

in the day uh as I was um grappling with

whether or not to take the product

because I had to travel. And as you

recall back then, forget international

travel if you weren't jabbed.

>> Even national travel. Yeah. You couldn't

get on an airplane.

>> But in Canada, it was even worse. You

couldn't get on a train. Um Yeah. So, so

I called uh uh Peter and and had a chat

with him and he said that they had

solved the problems of the distribution

that now when you injected it, it would

stay local. It would go to the draining

lymph nodes. Uh it was much more

effective and that they didn't have

those safety issues anymore. So, that

was one of the reasons why I decided to

go ahead.

>> Did you ask how they solved that

problem?

>> Yeah. Yeah, I I asked in detail because

I knew some of the nature of the

formulations. Again, I don't want to get

too technical, but uh what what was

claimed was that the incorporation of

polyethylene glycol

uh so this is you know you would know

that as antifreeze.

Uh but it's in the liposome world. It's

long been known as a way to create what

are known as stealth liposomes that

circulate in your body for a long period

of time and make it so that these

particles don't get inactivated by

extracellular proteins and the liver and

stuff like that. And so uh he was using

uh the the gentleman in particular is

named Peter Cullis. By the way, he's the

one that should have got the Nobel Prize

for these products as far as I'm

concerned uh and um got slided in the

pick. But Peter Cullis said that he had

uh they had experimented with a lot of

different structures of the fat

particles, chemical structures. So they

came up with some that had these

properties of staying localized and then

built the formulations in ways that were

similar to what I'd done uh with

cholesterol and other things, but then

also added these uh shorter polyethylene

glycol molecules attached with a really

short organic, you could call it fat or

or gasoline like molecule uh that that

put the PEG into the liposome particle

And but it in a way that once it got

into the body it would fall off. And so

this is you know some people have the

sensation as I did with my second jab of

you know you get it and then suddenly

you feel tingling in the end of your

fingers or things like that that may be

the peg. But it was those advances in

the components because this these are

self-assembling particles uh that were

used that um Peter uh and his group

>> Peter Mclla

>> uh no Peter Cullis uh pie t

>> okay

>> uh from UBC and his group um built these

products with uh this technology and

that was they they had it available uh

um the their choice because they created

companies for this. I mean a ton of

money must have been made uh because

they licensed it non-exclusively

to biioentech and madna and uh that

that's still kind of the core tech that

makes this particular

category of products work. And so this

was enough to convince you that they had

solved that problem. Yeah, I took his

word at it. I mean, he's he's an

extremely uh experienced, knowledgeable

uh liposome formulation expert, quite

senior. He's older than me by another

decade at least, and been doing this

forever. Uh and he asserted that he had

he had solved the problems and I

believed him. I needed to travel

internationally.

And also there was this buzz going

around at the time that uh if you had

long co which at you know at the time if

you think back to then uh there was a

whole cloud over even using the words

long co that the idea that you would

have these longlasting effects from

getting the infection

was controversial and not really

accepted but partially promoted. And

there was a narrative that was, you

know, in retrospect actively promoted

that if you took the vaccines and you

and if you had this symptom of this

chronic malaise uh and uh loss of

stamina, I mean, you're a guy that's

it's important to you to be physically

fit. For me, it's been important to be

physically fit all my life because I've

always been a farmer and a carpenter and

and worked with my hands and my body.

And I have farm chores. I still have

farm chores every day. And I couldn't do

them. I couldn't walk up hills. I just

had lost my stamina. I'd lost my

pulmonary function. And it wasn't

getting better. And nobody, you know,

nobody knew anything about this, what

was causing it, whether it was even

real. But I was experiencing it. Uh, you

know, there's there's a whole cluster of

people who say there's no virus and

there's certainly not any long co, but I

I experienced it.

>> So,

>> and so it was it was promoted that

>> if you took the jab

>> and you had this symptom.

>> Yeah.

>> Then it would kick your immune system

up,

>> you get more of a response to the spike

antigen and that would allow you to

clear these symptoms of longco. It turns

out now we have data in just fairly

recently that in fact the opposite is

true.

>> So this this idea of long co so you got

long co from the actual infection of co

19 before the jab.

>> Yeah I got infected in uh late very end

of February 2020. I was in Boston at a

uh

conference on drug discovery,

computational drug discovery, high

throughput stuff, um very high-tech,

MIT, and staying in a little firehouse

that had been converted to a hotel right

across the street from the biotech

company where that the initial Boston

outbreak was associated with. And I came

home sick as a dog. I thought that I had

uh influenza B because I was the what

the narrative was that was circulating

at the time. And uh I was just I

remember laying in bed just feeling sick

as hell. Uh hard to breathe. And my wife

came in. It's just been on the TV. Uh

um CO is circulating right there in

Boston where you were. Uh so so that was

that was pretty early on and it hit me

pretty hard. So that would have been um

the uh Wuhan one variant and then there

was a couple of of uh genetic changes

that occurred apparently in Boston

around that time.

>> So how long did this affect you this

this long co

>> I was I was sick until I took the jab.

Um, you know, just not not having

stamina, just feeling

uh

>> How many months was that?

>> I I had never even thought about it.

Many months.

>> Yeah.

>> And did you try anything else to

mitigate those symptoms?

>> Yeah, I did. So, uh um what my whole

story, you know, there's a whole bunch

of what I did back then that never gets

discussed and that's okay. But uh I you

know the kickoff was that I got this

call from Wuhan. I think it was for

Wuhan from this guy that uh used to be

CIA named Michael Callahan

uh who I'd worked with in the past and

had told me he told me with call that

there was this virus in Wuhan, this

Corona virus that looked like it was

going to be serious and I ought to pay

attention to it and I ought to get a

team wound up to try to address this. So

what I'd done because this is coming off

of what I did in Zika and I'm a

vaccinologist at core uh but um

developing a vaccine in the face of an

outbreak

historically has taken a decade and uh

it just isn't a practical way to address

an emergent infectious disease crisis

and I had become convinced that the best

way to do that was through repurposed

drugs.

So after I get this call, I put the team

together um building on the technology

that I'd been working with at USMRAD

during Zika for uh rapid identification

of uh

of repurposed drugs uh to address a you

know new crisis and uh this time we'd

really taken a computational approach.

So I used some tech out of UC San

Francisco to recreate one of the key

proteins in uh in SARS Kobe 2 based on

the sequence that got published from

Wuhan in this January 11th I think and

of 2020 and uh um we started doing

what's called computational docking of

very very large uh virtual libraries

using uh Amazon AWS and and high

throughput parallel processing and came

up with a list of compounds and uh then

kind of screen those against uh

problems, adverse events, um that kind

of stuff. Uh more coffee. Good.

>> Uh I would thank you. And um

>> so I had this list I had I had this list

of compounds and then I was sick as a

dog. And you know what you get trained

in if you do clinical research is docs

don't um experiment on themselves.

That's like breaking the rules.

But I'm lying there so sick that I'm

just like what the hell? What do I got

to lose? I'm probably going to die. You

know, I I at that point I'd spent a lot

of time already looking into the virus

and what it was causing and what people

were saying it was causing.

>> And how old were you at the time?

>> Um, let's see. I'm 66 now. So, 60 61.

Yeah.

>> So, you were in a high-risisk group.

>> Yeah, for sure. And and I was obese. I

don't know if you noticed, but I've

dropped about 40 to 50 pounds since we

last met.

So uh

so I started taking some of those

compounds and one of them was uh this

drug that is normally taken for stomach

acid called famodine

and uh I got an immediate response with

that and uh so I also tried isocoretin

that didn't seem to make so much of an

impact on me but I experimented on

myself and the fomadine at higher doses

is um now it's been verified to be

helpful and it was one of the first

things out of the box that people

started taking um even prophylactically

before we knew about uh ivormectin and

other things and then that went on I

mean there's a whole thread here we

could go on for an hour about about what

was done with the repurposed drugs I was

working closely with defense reduction

agency um and uh

um I managed to capture a few hundred

million dollars uh and direct that

towards uh drug repurposing um adaptive

clinical trials

etc. And uh the thing that I zoomed in

on through a collaboration with a doc up

in uh Minnesota

was the combination of famodine, another

anti-inflammatory called celoxib

and then the thing that really kicked it

in high gear was the forbidden horse

medicine uh ivormectin.

And uh we got I managed to working with

DoD got um over $und00 million uh set up

a contract uh um it got managed by SIC

and uh we were going to go after that

using a very cutting edge clinical trial

um design

and uh

and remember this is the DoD.

We submitted initial drug applications

for using this combination of licensed

drugs, well-known licensed drugs, and

the FDA just dug in um again and again

rejected the application.

So long what they said was we were going

to have to do cell culture tests to

demonstrate the antiviral activity of

ivormectin before they would allow us to

proceed.

uh and so in the end the DoD caved and

they dropped the ivormectin component

and proceeded with the uh fomodine and

ciloxip which showed some effect.

>> Why were they so hesitant or what was

the resistance?

>> I your your guess is as good as mine. I

really people think that I have

visibility into the FDA and yeah I've

met with them and I have a background in

regulatory affairs but the policy

decisions that were made during co uh

and still to this day are perplexing

>> particular Ivormect then

>> oh it was it was uh like a high sin

>> they they deployed

uh

what do we want to call it propaganda

psychological warfare nudge everything

just like they did after you and I had

our little discussion. Um it was it was

stunning. I mean the the like after we

had our chat uh um I don't know if you

remember you asked me about what is this

about mass formation psychosis.

>> Yeah.

>> And it I mean they use the term broke

the internet is overused. It broke the

internet.

>> Yeah. Uh the search results on Google

went nuts and uh

>> well because it perfectly described what

was happening.

>> Oh. And couldn't be it. No, it couldn't

possibly describe what was happening.

Even though every single person that

heard it knew damn well it did, but it

was forbidden. I mean, this was

forbidden because

>> for people who didn't hear our first

discussion, please explain mass

formation psychosis.

So since then, I've had a a [ __ ] storm

come at me for using the term psychosis

coupled with mass formation. You can't,

you know, the the grief. You think you

got a lot of grief from Spotify and from

uh

>> Spotify was actually great. I had no

grief from them. It was from like Neil

Young and Joanie Mitchell and

>> oh artists.

>> So you pro then you probably don't know

the whole backstory.

>> Okay. Um that's we should that's fun to

dive into because it relates to the

psychological warfare domain that now

I've become a pseudo expert on um just

in trying to understand what the hell I

experienced and what's going on. So, so

Matias Desmat who's a friend um at

University of Gent in Belgium, who by

the way has been pretty well railroaded

in his university now, not allowed to

teach his own book on the psychological

basis of totalitarianism where which is

where that book had not come out yet,

but it was uh the mass formation

hypothesis is what was the kind of core

of that book that's now published and

and widely regarded. Uh so so

Matias uh came Matias is somebody who uh

as a PhD full professor had long taught

uh 20th century

uh

uh psychology work relating to

totalitarianism and thought uh that goes

back to Freud and beyond really all the

way back to Plato and the allegory of

the cave. And in particular there was a

number of of philosophers in the 20th

century associated with uh trying to

make sense of Nazi Germany and what had

happened to the German people and really

all over the world uh but particularly

relating to the Germans and Matias had

been teaching this on a regular basis

and the way he tells the story he had an

epiphany one day that oh my god the

thing that I've been teaching I'm living

it we're experiencing it. We're

experiencing this process of the

formation of masses.

Um, and the the you could call it crowd

psychology. So mass formation, it's kind

of awkward or mass formation psychosis,

which is what the term was that was used

in the initial podcast that he gave out.

So that's why I use that term. uh but

you know it's not in the the the attack

was that it's not in the diagnostics and

statistical manual uh for the American

Psychiatric Association so therefore it

doesn't exist uh um uh but you know all

the attacks uh but um the core of it is

that when people to make it simple

become disassociated from society and

from each other they become extremely

vulnerable to manipulation of a variety

of different types. And a leader can

come into that environment

and uh offer let's to simplify it um

offer a solution to their pain because

being isolated socially isolated is

associated with pain. We as human beings

have a need to connect with others. It's

a fundamental aspect of being human.

It's what you do. I mean you connect.

That's that's the essence of the Joe

Rogan experience, I think. Um, so we

need to connect with others and in in

certain situations where people are

threatened. Um, and in particular in the

modern era where we have all of these

things that drive us into isolation,

most notably our electronic tools.

Uh, we become disassociated from our

community. And when that happens, we

have a strong need to become associated

with community. And a and a leader can

come into that environment and basically

say, I have the solution to your pain,

your psychological pain. And uh what

will happen is a strange phenomena where

people will rather than building social

networks let's say horizontally to those

around them they'll attach to this

strong leader

and they'll get that they'll get

fulfillment for that need to belong by

this attach attachment to that leader

and following the edicts of that leader

and this leads to this phenomena that

gives rise is you know enables

totalitarianism

but uh gives rise to this whole cluster

of things that mystus described

uh that um you know he he uses the term

mass formation in a way that's kind of

an odd artifact of translation I guess

from the Dutch uh it's an easier way to

think of it is a crowd formation

um and uh

And in his uh examination of the history

of what happened in Nazi Germany where

things were people really went crazy. I

mean mothers were turning their children

in uh you know children were being

executed on the on you know consequent

to mother's testimony which is really

strange when you think about it just you

know in a fundamental way. uh you know,

we had all of this uh dear leader kind

of stuff. uh the the um uh linkage of of

the self and the soul to this central

figure and deriving a sense of identity

and belonging from that that went on and

and you know there's still uh people

from that generation in Germany that um

are still caught up in in a lot of that.

that's why the German laws. Uh and um so

that's that's that's the short version.

When we spoke before, I gave a much more

technical precise uh definition of

Matias's uh core thesis.

Uh but um this once this happens then

people become very very easily

manipulated

through propaganda and a variety of

techniques that now I have a better

comprehension of. I mean then I was

still just trying to make sense just

like all of us of what the heck was

going on? What's with this crazy? uh but

now uh it's kind of coalesed into an

understanding of of the fact that uh

modern psychology has been weaponized.

It's been intentionally weaponized in

the context of military activities in

the domain that you know one way to

express it. The term is used kind of

term of art in military jargon is fifth

generation warfare or you could call it

psychological warfare. And what it

distinguishes the present from say uh

Sunzu and you know ancient propaganda

has always been part of warfare in

humans but uh we haven't had the digital

world we haven't had modern psychology

we haven't had nudge technology we

haven't had all these tools that allow

the control of information thought um

perception

feelings, emotions,

uh that have become common place and

that you know is is and has has you know

this this suite of technology and

capabilities that we saw deployed in all

of us were uh built in a kind of a

structured way largely by UK and US

leadership in the intelligence community

as a weapon of war to counter her these

uh successful insurgencies that we keep

losing wars over uh you know Vietnam

being a notable example all the way

through Afghanistan

and uh um so that that's why it was

built uh but then that tech um got

deployed by governments against their

own citizens and this was really

launched uh in large part uh in the

United States by a presidential

directive from Barack Obama. I'm not

making this up. Uh you can look it up.

And by the way, the presidential

directive is still in place that

establish the uh um nudge technology

units in the United States. They're

already operating in the UK. And in the

UK, it's quite advanced. When you look

at UK politics right now and what's

going on there with all the censorship

and everything, you know, this is no

joke. We're we're barreling right to

that end point. same as Canada has uh

you know we're just a little bit behind

and uh there they you know we have the

benefit of the first amendment in a

constitution

and um you know often on courts but uh

there they they don't have those

obstacles and the government believes in

the UK that once they have won an

election it's perfectly acceptable to

deploy this modern psychology and

information control technology on their

own population. And I argue that once

that Rubicon is crossed, the idea of

democracy because the tech is so

powerful becomes completely perverted.

And we got a good hard taste of that

during co. what what you and I

experienced, what you experienced with

Ivormectin, what you experienced with uh

you know just talking about your own

experiences

uh and the blowback that happened after

we did that little hit. uh um

is is a super powerful clear case study

in understanding

this intersection of modern psychology

uh warfare technology and uh the digital

world uh and and algorithmic control of

information. the uh creation of digital

avi a avatars for all of us. The

application now in the present of

artificial intelligence to custom craft

uh messaging uh that gets fed into our

digital domains on a regular basis in

order to you know sell us whatever.

uh but also to shape how we think and uh

to control what information we get

access to all the time. Just to give an

example, my wife who does a lot of our

research for our Substack was talking to

me the other day. She she just gave me a

couple examples where uh um stories that

were in corporate media in the United

States that weren't listing certain key

names or whatever. Um she said, "I just

go to the Hindust Times." Hindust Times

is a great source for all the stuff that

we're not allowed to see here in the

United States. You're now in a in an

environment in an information

environment where you cannot

um uh rely on but we all know that you

can't rely on corporate media but the

but the the rules the boundaries that

are being set up about information are

profound and they're completely

distorting our ability to uh process

what's happening around us. Can I give

you the example of what actually

happened? you you said in in our example

with the blowback in Spotify, this is

documented by a a report out um from the

House about CO and what happened and

that report only carries just through to

the early part of the vaccines and then

it stops. They for some reason they

didn't really want to go down the road

to the vaccines. They did talk a lot

about the um events around uh the let's

say lab leak hypothesis

uh which is allowed. You're you're

allowed in DC now to talk about that

>> finally.

>> Yeah. You're still well and

>> it was about four years later you were

allowed.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um uh so what was

documented

was that uh the the trail of events

was that we had our discussion

that triggered, and this is going to

sound bizarre, but this is what's

documented, that triggered CocaCola

Corporation

to complain to the Global Alliance for

Responsible Media, which is created by

the World Economic Forum. It is one of

these global aggregators that controls

advertising.

the Global Alliance for Responsible

Media, which by the way had it dust up

with uh Elon Musk and lost and they

closed it down as a nonprofit. It still

exists in other ways, but as a structure

that could be sued by X, it disappeared

when he stood up against it. But Global

Alliance for Responsible Media had a

socket with Google AdSense, by the way.

So they control the advertising

ecosystem which kind of matters to

Spotify.

So Coca-Cola complains to Garm saying

this guy Rogan, you got to shut him

down. Okay, you got to put pressure on

Spotify.

So Spotify gets the message from Garm

that we're going to we're threatening to

pull your advertising. Okay. Now what

happens between that and your

experience? I don't know. you know, it's

not transparent to me what you

experienced. Uh, yeah, we all remember

the um Laurel Canyon crowd saying they

were going to pull their Cadillacs,

which they didn't actually own, right?

That was that was another thing. And

then they they went after you uh with

this uh mashup of nword uh historic uh

events. Um, you know, there was clearly

a concerted effort to take out Joe

Rogan,

uh, much more than to take out Robert

Malone. And, uh, so then the question

comes, why the heck would CocaCola

be the socket with the Global Alliance

for Respons, one of the biggest

advertisers in the world, right? Why

Coca-Cola give a hoie about what Joan

Rogan said to Robert Malone on, you

know, New Year's Eve? Uh,

Coca-Cola is really tight with the CDC.

Coca-Cola has funded buildings at the

CDC. Coca-Cola funds the um CDC

Foundation, Foundation for the CDC, as

does Bill and Meinda Gates, as done all

the major vaccine manufacturers, etc.,

etc. The appearance is, I can't verify

this, that CDC

acted through its ally Coca-Cola. Why

are they allies? What's Coca-Cola got to

do with CDC? The angle there is that

Coca-Cola wanted the CDC to get uh WHO

to not implement restrictions and

messaging about sugar use.

>> Okay? They didn't want those messages.

Remember, this is at the heart of the

inverted food triangle. Now, the the old

food triangle was the product of sugar

lobby. I mean, the sugar lobby is

incredibly powerful because this stuff

is addictive. I mean, it's it's like

having the cocaine lobby, right? Well,

and you know, that's an interesting uh

analogy because of course the history of

Coca-Cola,

>> right?

>> Uh but um so sugar's addictive. uh the

the CDC the Coca-Cola didn't want the CD

wanted the CDC to influence public

health policy to avoid um uh global

positions on the risks associated with

sugar intake because it would

potentially hurt their market share. You

know, they're a major globalized

company. So that's that little ecosystem

that I just described illustrates what

we're dealing with here and the many

ways that um all of this kind of

influence and messaging and signaling

happens in this kind of integrated

horizontally and vertically ecosystem

that we live in right now. And one of

the things that came out of that, you'll

recall, was that you were asked, as I

recall, you you gave this, you know, I'

I've had a hostage video. I think that

was a close to a hostage video from you

back in the day when you were saying,

"This is what I'm going to do." Uh, it

was like out on your porch or something.

Um, I remember I was sitting around a

campfire in Maui, quite literally, when

somebody said, "No, did you just see

this from Rogan?" And uh a matter of

fact, I was sitting around Gavin

Debecker's uh campfire at that time,

somebody that you know. And uh so um the

compromise was that there would be a

little trailer put at the bottom of that

episode. And by the way, you probably

know that episode for a long time became

very hard to find. Uh it was it was

basically blacklisted from the search

engines, etc., etc. But you it carries

and I I think it still does that little

banner that says you know you should go

to the CDC if you want the true true

about co

>> and you can still find that those kinds

of banners popping up all the time on

YouTube

>> if you if you talk about vaccines or co

vaccines that will get if if you pass

the filters if if YouTube will allow

that to still be up um because you

didn't say something whatever it is uh

then you'll get the little banner. Okay,

that banner is pushed out by the nudge

units at the CDC.

Okay, that is nudge technology.

It is all around us all the time and

it's it's basically still uh public

policy consequent to the old Obama

presidential directive that still hasn't

been rescended. Uh, you know, I love

President Trump. I think he's doing

amazing things. I think he's amazingly

brave. Uh, I just mentioned our friend

Gavin Debecker referred to Trump the

other day when I saw Gavin in in uh,

Maui as a once- in 500y year leader. And

that's that's not that's not nothing

coming from Gavin. And uh so I'm I'm a

big supporter, but the president has

still left in place this mechanism that

exists uh that directs the federal

government to use nudge technology and

related uh what I assert is

psychological warfare technology on the

American populace.

>> Right. This is from back in what was it

201

15 or something like that.

>> Yeah, it's it's quite early. Um, and

then you had his you had Obama's

subsequent like the notorious speech at

Hoover at Stanford

>> where he talks about in order to

preserve democracy, we're going to have

basically says we're going to have to

have censorship,

>> right?

>> Uh, in order to preserve democracy or

whatever democracy is,

>> for people that don't know what we're

talking about, we're relating to the

Smith Munt Act.

>> The Smith Munt, everybody focuses on

Smith Mut. Um but as I examined Smith

and we did an essay on this in the

Substack um you know like three years

ago because that was the kind of the

narrative that was coming out in let's

say our side of alternative media

>> right

>> and uh in my examination Smith's impact

is a lot more limited. It has to do with

Voice of America and some of those

things. the broad impact wasn't quite in

my opinion what was believed to be of of

enabling propaganda domestically.

>> More specifically, um there is a

presidential directive

that nudge technology that established a

nudge office that nudge technology shall

be used.

>> They don't call they don't call it a

nudge office, right?

>> They they I don't know. It's it's got

they've they've gone through various

iterations and I'm sorry I don't have

the latest version and it's kind of

become decentralized.

>> It was called the social and behavioral

science team. Uh Wikipedia says that

that was stopped in 2017 but continued

under the Trump administration under

sorry uh the general services

administration's office of evaluation

science.

>> There we go.

>> Yeah.

>> Boy. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's and it's kind of become it's

been like I said it's been pushed out

into a lot of the agencies.

>> Um they don't use that that lexicon

because then it's easy to find them,

>> right?

>> They use there's other euphemisms they

use uh to describe those kinds of

activities, but it's become normalized.

The the weaponization of propaganda has

become normalized. There's the wording

from

>> overall behavioral interventions or

nudges like the ones implemented by OES

have been found to be effective in

recent psychological science article.

Researchers identified several policy

areas of interest. Example, healthcare.

>> Here we go. 2015 is when it was

implemented.

>> So 2015

>> President Obama signs an exe executive

order requiring federal agencies to

incorporate behavioral insights into

their evaluation efforts.

>> That's a nice way of saying the use of

propaganda on the American people. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. And so this this has kind of

become Thank you so much for

>> for pulling that up. That's super

helpful. So, um, this this is like I

said, if I can illustrate, I was on a

Great Britain News broadcast about four

years ago. Uh, at the time when they

would, you know, I was, there was a

window of time where they would have me

on, but it was sketchy. Um, and GBN News

was the only one that would do it. And

uh but the rules were then that if you

were going to have somebody that was

speaking against the government

narrative, then you had to have somebody

representing the government's interests

in the same broadcast.

>> So that's uh implemented by basically

the UK has an active censorship

organization that controls news media.

And uh so I'm on with this guy, Great

Britain News, pinstripe, bow tie, you

know, it just uh reeks. And um and I'm

talking about psychological warfare and

uh the 77th Brigade which is part of the

British Army which is their uh

psychological warfare unit. It's very

open uh that that's the case. uh as is

the existence of of uh um a civilian

branch that they set up and paid people

to do social media in opposition of

counternarratives

uh that the government didn't approve

of. I mean now they just underarm they

just censor you and send you to jail.

>> Uh they they just cut cut out the

middleman. Yeah.

>> Uh but back then they were still uh kind

of buying civilians. And so I'm talking

about this and uh that's that the the

guy says yeah but here in the UK um our

belief is that if the government wins

the election they have the right to

govern and that right to govern includes

our ability to use this type of

technology and we believe that it's

justified to do so and that when that

conversation happened frankly I hadn't

we hadn't launched the book yet cy which

is our most recent publication and uh

and it just kind of all coalesed in my

mind that oh my god what all these

things Matias's teaching about mass

formation what I saw what I experienced

with you what I experienced with the

concerted attacks of the media um and

then subsequently it's been validated by

this congressional report that talks

about for instance the juror ticket

system juror tickets are are what it's a

system that all the software companies

use to track uh glitches and uh

complaints and stuff like that. Well,

the government had their own juret

system set up to log um information

about activities of persons that they

wanted to have censored and suppressed

and they would build these juro tickets

with information. And so, one of the

things that's out in the congressional

report was that I actually had a juror

ticket. I was surprised that this is the

case or not surprised in retrospect. Uh

and and my personal sins were that I was

listed as an antivaxer and a

conservative

>> even though you're a vaccinologist and a

conservative. That's interesting. And a

conservative conservative. Yeah. Exactly

right. I mean, the stuff that's coming

out

>> That's wild. It's it's fascinating to

query things like Grock even Grock um uh

um about uh certain subjects and and you

will find where they have

algorithmically built firewalls

and and you can you can approach them

and detect them because um it will it

will act dumb you know it'll lock up

seemingly it won't give you that answer

or it'll talk around the issue etc etc.

You can identify these things that have

been built in algorithmically and of

course then we we had all of the

disclosures the Zuckerberg uh oh I'm so

sorry uh apology tour that happened

remember when basically he got outed by

Congress and and the rest of the tech

bros. Uh, and of course the thing that

catalyzed all of that was that Elon

decided to pony up a good chunk of

change and buy

by buy Twitter,

>> which I think is one of the most

impactful decisions that any American

citizen has ever made.

>> Amazing.

>> If he didn't do that, I think we would

be really screwed.

>> Uh, there's How How can you debate that?

How can you debate it when you look at

the Twitter files and you find out how

much the government was involved in

censoring accurate information from

legitimate professors, esteemed

researchers, anybody who didn't go along

with the official narrative.

>> It's it's all coming out now in spades

and and we're dealing now. The lovely

thing about all of this, I mean, let's

let's try to it is morning in America in

my opinion. I mean, a lot of people get

very dark and and there's a darkness to

the times, but there's, you know, not to

push the metaphor too far, but there

there is um new light coming in and the

fact that we can now see this and we

recognize that you and I are very

similar generation. I mean, one of my

earliest memories was the assassination

of the president and all of the

propaganda around that, the propaganda

around Vietnam War. Ever since, we've

just been swimming in information

control that's gotten increasingly

sophisticated.

And uh fortunately as Americans, we also

kind of have become more and more immune

to marketing and propaganda over time

because we've been living with it.

Trying to discern what is real and what

is, you know, false. Again, this is if

it's a core part of what you do for a

living, I think, is is just try to, you

know, have conversations with people get

to the bottom of the [ __ ] uh but um

that we've we've been swimming in it and

now we can see it. We can see the the

structures the you know the the power of

artificial intelligence and influence

mapping and all the things that are

going on the internet right now that are

the cutting cutting edge technology.

They're scary because they could be

weaponized against us, but they're also

super cool because we can now see those

relationships. If you want an example of

that, look at the the threads that are

coming out on X uh illuminating the uh

networks of affiliation associated with

this latest Epstein file release. Just

mind-blowing.

>> Mind-blowing. Uh and and it is just just

like you know we can we can sit here and

[ __ ] and whine saying oh they didn't

release that blah blah blah this is this

is redacted all that's true but still

the the impact of of that information

and we're still getting to the bottom of

it. It's completely changed most

people's narrative of what happened.

Like we had this sort of vague

understanding, you know, but when you

see in the email like clear evidence

that they're talking about children

>> in in pretty obscene ways,

>> horrifying ways. So that was the thing

that like even I when I talked to Mike

Benz about that, he was sort of

incredulous about that. It's like I

don't think they would use children. It

just doesn't make any sense if it got

caught. But it just seems like

>> Yeah, if if Mike Benz was incredulous. I

know that's pretty big.

>> I Well, I just don't think we really

knew until we saw those files come out.

Yeah.

>> And then you go, "Oh, well, you there's

no denying it now." My My position on it

is completely shifted. I thought there's

probably some really sick people that

have an appetite for that, but I hadn't

seen any real evidence for it until

these files. And now I'm like, "Oh, this

is demonic. This is clearly demonic." it

the Okay, so thank you for saying that.

Um uh I'm somebody who was raised a

Christian and went to Bible school and

that kind of stuff as a kid and youth

groups

uh and then growing up in central coast

of California, let's say, um veered in

different ways. Mhm.

>> Uh but uh the experiences that we've

encountered over the last half a dozen

years, it's hard to come up with the

language to express what we're observing

in the world other than than the

language of theology.

>> Well, demonic by action. So whether or

not demons exist, if they did exist,

that is how they would behave. They

would pray on children and torture

children. And there was the one where

there was a suggestion when a child was

praying to Jesus that like there was a

joke that someone should dress up like

Jesus.

>> I'm I

>> did you see that one?

>> No, I'm not I'm not watching this.

>> I don't even want to I don't even want

People send it to me and I go, "Okay."

Because I'm for the most part off social

media,

>> but every now and then someone will send

me something that I have to look at. I'm

like, "Oh my god."

>> Yeah. And these are the these are emails

back and forth. There's one of them

where Epstein says, "I enjoyed the

torture video.

>> There's these references to pizza." A

lot of references to pizza that are 100%

some kind of a code.

>> Yeah.

>> And then it brings you back to

Pizzagate.

>> Yeah.

>> And which was widely dismissed. You

know, everybody's like, "Oh, this is a

bunch of cooks.

>> Here it is."

Uh she said she felt God's presence next

to her when she was in bed. She knows

that Jesus watches over her and he helps

her save. He helped save her life. And

then he writes, "Whoops." And then in

response, Jeffrey Epstein says, "You

should dress up as him when you see

her."

>> Um it it is it is dark. You should dress

up like Jesus when you see her. What the

[ __ ]

>> And well, look at the line.

>> You're talking about a little look at

the line. Look at the line above it.

>> How am I How am I supposed to interpret

I'm coming trick?

>> The o Jesus I'm coming trick.

>> It's just the the whole thing. But so so

we see this darkness. It involves uh

leaders in academ,

in science, in industry, in politics.

>> Yeah.

>> And and it it just, you know, I I

remember a point in this arc of the last

six years where a film crew came on to

my farm and wanted to shoot some

segments and they were talking this and

frankly I thought it was crazy talk. Um,

I kind of smiled and and you know tried

to be civil and nice,

not contradict them uh uh about the new

world order.

And um uh and then

along comes, you know, then my wife one

day says, "Hey, you ought to look at

this book from Claus Schwab. It's called

The New World Order."

Like what? I mean, he was just saying it

out loud.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, the World Economic Forum had

those ads where they were saying, "You

will own nothing and you will be happy."

>> Yeah. And and it goes back to the

current king of England was the guy that

kind of launched that. He was the first

one to be really talking about that that

you can if you you can go use your use

your favorite AI and track it down

yourself. Uh I prefer not to use Google

these days to try to find stuff, but uh

it it we see vertical after vertical

after vertical after vertical where um

information has been crafted and

manipulated and these same tools of uh

of delegitimization

of uh um

promotion of uh these messages. is uh

that you are a conspiracy theorist or uh

um uh that you are controlled opposition

is another favorite one. A lot of this

was pioneered in the 60s by the FBI

against the various protest movements

and you can go back and track that.

Okay. The the the narrative of uh um uh

uh being a a collaborator

uh surreptitiously is called bad

jacketing. uh and and it has its own its

own language and and protocols for how

to do this to people to divide

movements. We're we're we're in this I

mean in a way it's kind of a glorious

moment where we're having uh a huge

amount of social

uh pressures coming together in this

moment in time that you and I happen to

live in. How fantastic is that to be at

a point in time where there is so much

change, there's so much social

interaction and pressure and competition

between these different philosophies and

and we're swimming in it. I for as as

somebody who writes on a daily basis

these essays on Substack because that's

how I make my living now because I can't

do what I used to do. Uh um it's it's

you're a kid in a candy shop. There

there's so much corruption. There's so

much falsehood being promoted. There's

so much of this uh manipulation of of

reality.

And so if if you're in the business of

of trying to help people to make sense

out of that, which is kind of what I do

now for a living, uh it's, you know, I

wake up every morning, people I get the

feedback, how do you come up with all

these ideas? I'm like, how do you not?

>> All you got to do is keep your eyes

open.

>> Yeah. It's not hard to search anymore.

>> So So you talked about Ivormectin. I

mean, the Ivormect story is is still

ongoing. There was an announcement the

other day from HHS that they are

launching new initiatives to investigate

the use of ivormectin and cancer. And

there was immediate blowback uh along

the lines of oncologists are outraged.

You know, the narrative is uh Bobby, you

know, not saying this explicitly, but

basically Bobby Kennedy is at it once

again promoting falsehoods and

conspiracy theories and it's going to,

you know, we're all going to die because

uh because scientists are going to

investigate the use of ivormectin and

and other drugs.

>> So, why? So, this is the this is the

core question and this is one of the

things that puzzled me to no end. I

understood that they were upset that I

had gotten better without the use of the

vaccine, that I was a popular person,

that I was a famous person, and I made a

video about a cancelled show. Dave

Chappelle and I were supposed to do a

show and I made that video to let

everyone know that I couldn't do the

show because I got CO. I had no idea it

was going to be even controversial. But

I listed a bunch of things that I took

>> and the [ __ ] hit the fan.

>> I talked about IV vitamins. I talked

about monocodal antibodies. I talked

about

>> which were allowed

>> predinazone. Yeah. All these things that

I talked about Zpack. I talked about all

these different things that I took.

There was no mention of any of those

things. There was only Ivormectin. And

that's what really puzzled me. I was

like, this is fascinating because I

listed a bunch of different things, but

there was no demonization of monoconal

antibodies, but they did make them much

harder to get and eventually pulled

them.

>> I I have a friend and his friend was in

the hospital and they wouldn't

administer monoconal antibodies once he

got into the hospital. They wouldn't

allow him to have that.

>> What went on in the hospital is a whole

another thing. But you mention that's

crazy.

>> But so so the the why

>> the why that one medication

>> only the only two threads that I can

pull on at all is that Ivormectin is a

miracle drug. I mean Nobel Prize, right?

>> Right.

>> Uh we don't understand completely how it

works.

>> In this case, it doesn't seem to be

working as an antiviral. that seems to

be working as an imun immune stimulant

pro-inflammatory

or or proimmune response in some way

that's subtle uh because it has this

broad spectrum of activity against

things that have an immune response

component in controlling but it's off

patent right

>> they don't understand it it's off patent

and it it the response is as if it

represents a significant threat to some

business interests. It's hard to discern

that. And you mentioned Zpac. So that's

another fascinating one. And to say that

it was only Ivormectton, Ivormekin was

the most prominent, but they were

actually effective in shutting down uh

the the Zpac um uh the use of

hydroxychloricquin.

And hydroxychloricquin has a fascinating

story. When you mention Zpac, you're

talking about Zeb Zeleno. And Zev was

the one that wrote the letter to the

president saying, "Hey, here's this data

and this information about this drug

that is off patent. Um, we have a huge

uh portfolio of experience in using it.

Um, millions and millions of doses. It's

safe in pregnancy. Uh, what's not to

like here?" And and the story of that is

is a fascinating microcosm because it

goes back to Ralph Bareric. Ralph

Bareric had published that um back years

ago when you know he's he's kind of the

guru of corona viruses and a good case

can be made that he had his fingers all

over the engineering of this particular

virus. Uh so he had published

that this drug was effective against

corona viruses.

and Zev

Zelenko, who's passed away now, um uh

got engaged in trying to find some way

to help his patients in New York with uh

recovering from COVID and uh treating

COVID. and he went back did a deep dive

into into Bareric's work pulled out this

drug hydroxychloricquin that had been

recommended wrote to the president about

it started he got clinical experience

with it um and you know caveat um uh

Mickey Willis is doing a uh bio uh on

Zev now um and I'm involved in that so

conflict of interest but uh he was the

one that pulled it out sent the letter

to the president with his clinical

experience.

President tasked Peter Navaro with

sourcing the drug for the and and Peter

economist went to town. I remember uh

the company I was working with Elim at

the time getting a call from Peter, can

you come up with some way to make more

of this drug here domestically? We want

to source it so we have enough doses for

everybody. And then I think it was

Lancet published this paper that had

totally made up data that trashed the

drug. Said that it's toxic, doesn't

work, blah blah blah blah blah. It was

all fake. Okay. They pulled the paper

when it became revealed that it was

based on non-existent data, that it was

more propaganda published in one of the

top medical journals in the United

States. But by that time, it was

completely crushed. So they didn't have

to go after ZStack. They'd already

killed ZStack. Ivormectton though that

was a new threat. And one of the reasons

why it was a threat was there was a um

metaanalysis that had been done at the

Cochran. So the Cochran Institute in the

UK is like you know the holy grail for

analysis of drugs uh and biologics and

uh this process of metaanalysis. They

kind of they kind of wrote the rules for

how to do it and they had done an

analysis that showed that Ivormectin was

quite effective. uh and um then

something happened

and uh there was some influence exerted

and suddenly that metaanalysis got

quenched. It got squashed. Um there were

two investigators that uh were involved

in building that. Um one kind of went

underground and and got a big grant and

carried on as an academic. The other one

got so pissed off that she created this

organization called the World Council

for Health. That's Tess Lori.

And uh she really objected to what

happened. But Ivormect,

you know, there was a signal there.

There was a clear signal there. There

was data supporting that signal. And

then something happened to cause that

metaanalysis to be restructured. And

certain studies that were showing how

effective it was to be thrown out. And

then the suppression of the data coming

out of India. You remember that?

>> Uh

>> Uttar Pradesh

>> and and Uttar Pradesh and and uh and I

guess it had kind of it's like the cat

was out of the bag and they had trouble

putting it back in. So they just my

sense is they turned up the amplitude on

the on the uh propaganda and the

censorship in order to try to overcome

this. and and I'm pretty sure remember

who was it that held the original patent

Merc now I was involved um as an

observer on behalf of of Ditra to the

active trials that were going on under

the foundation for NIH which is

sponsored in significant way by Merc and

which is now headed up by the former

head of merc vaccines Julie Gerbering.

Uh Bobby can't get her out. It's the

rules. uh and they were running these

clinical trials including the clinical

trial that essentially by tweaking the

dosing etc made it so that they came up

with a result suggesting that Ivormectin

was not effective there there was a

whole lot of manipulation and the why

part

still the best explanation I've heard is

that it had a lot to do with uh

the risk that if there was an effective

counter measure. Then the utilization of

the PREP act and the emergency counter

measures uh um uh to uh process to

enable fasttracking of these vaccines

uh using this new technology

uh would no longer be valid because

those are the rules is if there's an

existing counter measure then you can't

uh implement

those clauses.

So it was all about emergency use

authorization.

>> It's the I don't know that that's the

case. It's it is

>> the only thing that makes sense when you

see how much profit they made

>> which which was enormous

>> enormous. So it was effective and yeah

all that propaganda regardless of how

much exposed them and exposed their

methods they made hundreds of billions

of dollars.

Uh it well and and that that the ugly

part of all of this I mean people the

big big picture when I talk to people

that are still kind of on the fence

trying to make sense out of it you know

there still a lot of those folks out

there the the thing that kind of gets

into their brain is the greatest upward

transfer of wealth in modern history

occurred during co Yeah,

>> it wasn't just the vaccines. It was the

whole enterprise

>> with the lockdowns,

>> lockdowns, all the the what was done to

small businesses, what was done uh to

the economy, the stimulus packages,

they're still digging out of all that

fraud. Uh it it you know in retrospect

uh for for average folks

uh that are just trying to put food on

the table and pay their rent uh to look

at in retrospect what was you know quite

literally done to them. The middle class

was hollowed out in like on hypers

speed. uh this.

So yeah, I'm still pissed off about

this.

>> Well, you should be. The thing is, not

enough people are and so many people let

it go. And part of the reason why not

enough people are pissed off about it is

because they took the vaccine and they

want to justify their decision. And you

will talk to a lot of people that make

this blanket claim the vaccine saved

millions of lives and they'll just say

that. Yeah, because that's the

propaganda along with fa with safe and

effective that was a promoted narrative

and that was by the way the rationale

given by the Nobel Prize committee to

award to Curico and Weissman

>> was that these products which they had

the thesis is they had been playing the

central role I disagree I think Peter

Cas is the one that should have got it

if you're going to give it for if you're

going to give it for these vaccines it

was Peter Cas and his team at UBC that

really was the enabling back. But be

that as it may, the decisions made and

the committee said basically uh you know

millions of lives have been saved and by

giving this Nobel at this time we are we

hope that it will promote more people to

accept this product

>> that that was explicitly the logic given

at the time and that reflects what was

really a thrust vector. Joe, I I've you

know, it's what a bizarre world since we

met.

>> Uh and and so I've been sucked into uh

to call it the center right of Europe is

a little bit of a misnomer because

they're all socialists as far as I'm

concerned, Georgia, Maloney, and

everybody else. But, you know, compared

to the far left, uh they're labeled as

neo-Nazis. But I've been traveling to

Europe, interacting with these people.

You think it was bad for us, the

European Union, the UK and the Canada

were order magnitude worse that we we we

should be so grateful that we live in

this country at this time and that we

still have something like a functioning

constitution with the first and second

amendment. Uh look at the poor suckers

in Australia and New Zealand.

>> Yeah. uh you know it uh remind yourself

it could be a heck of a lot worse here

and it has been a heck of a lot worse in

in Europe. I've got buddies in Romania

in the leading uh um alternative party

you know calling it center right let's

say but um uh that uh you know recently

I think it was the vice president that

came out and said specifically that that

last election was stolen. It was in in

Romania. Georgescu uh they tried to put

in jail and the logic was that uh I

think it was Tik Tok supporting his

campaign had been sponsored by the

Russians. It was the same game that they

played against Trump of Russian

collusion. They played that same book in

Romania successfully. But in the

European Union environment under the

European Council, they they don't, you

know, they ain't got a constitution

and they can just step right in and and

throw you in jail, inactivate your

candidacy, do whatever if you represent

a populist threat to the existing

structure. We talk about the deep state

but it's it it doesn't you know yeah

it's a problem here but and and thank

yeah Mike Benz I defer to as as a

notable expert in that space

>> but uh it's it's a lot worse in Europe

and Australia and Canada and the UK and

uh I think you know we're we're in a in

a perilous time here in the United

States where, you know, we have the

midterm coming up, but

but people like Bobby are making

progress and these dissident physicians

that have risked so many things. Uh, and

I'm just one, you know, people I hear

people saying, "Oh, Robert, Robert,

they've been so mean to you." And I'm

like, "Come on, guys." Um, you think

they've been mean to me, then look at

what they did to Bobby. And then if if

you know and then look, I don't have a

nick out of my ear, you know, look at

what they did to Trump. What they did to

me is just I'm I'm nobody compared to

that. And they're willing to deploy that

kind of capability against me. Uh think

about what's really going on at the

higher levels where where the big games

are being played. And uh you know, at

least we can see it now. At least we

have for those of us that have our eyes

open, we have some ability to be aware.

But what what I've spent the last two

years mostly trying to convince people

about, I hardly ever talk about RNA. I

sit um oh I Joe, I got to give a caveat.

Um forgive me. Um the opinions I'm

expressing here are my own and not those

of the US government, the CDC, or the

ACIP. There, I said it. Okay. Um, but

you know, we we're in a moment where

we're seeing this how the levers, the

gears of how all this works. Give you an

example. Tomorrow,

Friday, February 13th, what could

possibly go wrong?

>> Uh um hopefully my plane flight out of

here works okay and they don't have a

drone attack or something, right? Um, so

tomorrow there's a lawsuit

uh filed on behalf of the American

Academy of Pediat Pediatrics that seeks

to shut down the advisory committee on

immunization practices and uh the

changes that Bobby's implemented there

uh and uh force all of that to go back

to the way things were when it was

functionally controlled by the

professional societies and particularly

the American Academy of Pediatrics.

They they they we talk about this, you

know, propaganda and weaponization and

and uh lawfare and those things and we

talk about it as if it only happened in

the last administration. It's it's still

ongoing all the time and it is going to

go big time if if the house turns, which

I think it probably will. I mean,

there's a good chance that

they've already drawn up articles of

impeachment against Secretary Kennedy.

They're talking about articles

impeachment against President Trump.

We're about to go into another two years

of stagnation

uh and and um you know, functional

uh what do we call it? We can't call it

civil war. Um uh you know, um war by

other means uh is is where we're heading

right now. But at this moment,

uh, I'm seeing

major movement. You know, Kennedy is

doing great stuff. The president is

doing great stuff. We're seeing a

transformation in America's global

reach. Uh, totally restructuring global

politics. And on the health side, the

Make America Healthy Again movement, you

know, there's there's some push back

against that and a heck of a lot of

propaganda being deployed against it.

Well, it's this old quote that seems

sort of abstract for most people most of

the time, but rings kind of true, but

you're finding it true more and more.

Money is the root of all evil.

>> Uh, profound. Uh, simple, but profound.

Yeah.

>> I mean, this is the the co thing with

ivormectin and alternative medications,

off label medications. Why money?

>> I think it also has to do with control.

Right. I think which means money or

access to money.

>> Yeah. It's it's it's money and power in

my mind.

>> But power they don't want power without

money.

>> They want they want to benefit from that

power.

>> I I believe for the likes of Larry Frink

and Bill Gates. I mean they can't spend

all that they have.

>> Right.

>> It's a marker. It's a It's like chips.

You're stacking up. Exactly.

>> Right. They're scoring in a video game.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. and and

>> but also captured by their past actions

and constantly trying to obuscate from

all the things that they have done in

the past that could be like if you just

went into Bill Gates's stuff that he did

in Africa

>> giving children polio with the polio

vaccine that was from the AP news

>> Africa in India.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean he's kind of banned from India.

Uh the Yeah. So I don't get it. I don't

get where these people live. I I'm I'm

happy. You know, as far as I'm

concerned, I could walk away from all

this stuff. It's just kind of a sense of

obligation of what are you going to do

when you're 66? I have this opportunity

to impact in a positive way on the world

on my way out the door. Uh who wouldn't

take it? Well, I guess a lot of people

wouldn't.

>> But I don't have a need to have power. I

have, thank God for my Substack

subscribers. I have all all that I need.

My wife is happy. My horses are fed. My

farm is paid off. It's it's you know

it's and I have the luxury of doing good

works and that's enough. I don't I don't

get this this global power thrust and

hunger.

>> That's not what you do. That's not your

thing. But if you were a politician or

you were some megalomaniacal

billionaire sort of business character

that just wants to dominate and it was

involved in a bunch of antitrust

lawsuits in the past. That would be what

>> not that we're naming any names.

>> Not that we're naming any names. That

bribed off multimedia corporations to

the tune of 300 plus million dollars so

that they wouldn't write bad stories

about him

>> or or uh owns you know functionally owns

the World Health Organization,

>> right? and a giant chunk of American

farmland for was for a while trying to

put that push that fake meat [ __ ] on

everybody until that dropped off a

cliff.

>> Yeah. And and yeah, so this the business

models aren't working out so good for

the globalists, are they?

>> I think a lot of it is because of

information that's available now.

>> Yeah.

>> And you can't control like

>> one of the things that did happen during

COVID is

these places like CNN people stopped

going to for information. They don't

believe them anymore. There's just too

much [ __ ] and no one got in trouble

for spreading that [ __ ] There was

no corrections, no redactions, no no

apologies. Yeah. And so

>> no acknowledgement.

>> People now more than ever in my lifetime

mistrust mainstream media. And polls

show that that polls show that the trust

of mainstream media is at an all-time

low for good reason. They did it to

themselves. They prostituted themselves

out to the pharmaceutical drug

companies. They had to say what they had

to say on television. people knew what

they were saying was incorrect and now

no one trusts them.

>> So to this thread about four years ago I

I read a report from the Trusted News

Initiative. You remember the TNI

>> Yeah.

>> was launched by the BBC, right?

>> Uh to counter Russian disinformation

>> and then repurposed to counter vaccine

disinformation.

>> Uh and they and I read this report about

I'd gone on your show.

>> Mhm. So, I was a little bit of a fan.

Uh, forgive me. Uh, and, um, so I'm

reading this report and they're talking

about threats to the industry because

TNI is basically another trade

organization. It's another guild.

>> Uh, it's a global uh, major media guild.

And uh, so they're they're doing this

internal analysis and reporting and and

they're talking about the risk vectors

that they face. And they had a whole

great big section on Joe Rogan. Joe

Rogan represents uh that that was that

was their uh threat that that was the

major threat to their business model is

you and what you represent

you as a metaphor for this new

information economy and by God they

called it right. It's it's and and when

I this again this has been part of my

journey when I

realized

what I was experiencing and what it

meant to come on your show and have that

>> um event occur which by the way blew up

my subscribers on Substack. Thank you so

much. I still get a wave every year

about in the in the month following. So,

January, I get a big bump in revenue.

>> Well, it blew up our subscribers on

Spotify, too. During the heat of it, we

gained in one month we gained two

million subscribers.

>> I had Where are we at now? I had I had

Oh, yeah. Please.

>> What is the What's the Spotify

subscribers? I never I know YouTube is

over 20 million. What is Spotify at?

So, while he's looking that up, I had

this bizarre experience. You know, I'm

just an old gay-haired guy with a with,

you know, about to have my 47th wedding

anniversary.

>> Congratulations.

>> Thank you. I'm proud of it. Um uh I

would have 20 year olds come up in the

street and fist bump me. I'm like, what

the hell?

>> Yeah. Well, they don't have a

representative. I mean, they don't see

anyone.

>> All males.