[Applause]

I've got one [ __ ] life and this is

it.

Jimmy,

it was not pre-ordained that I was going

to be a successful comedian touring the

world and being on TV. I just I knew

what I wanted to do and then I pursued

it. I was so broken. I was so stripped

of serotonin. It went from being on the

cover of the paper to going, you know,

this is morally wrong. I was having

panic attacks. It's [ __ ] terrifying

because you think, is this my forever

now? And when you're depressed, it's the

appetite for life is just gone. What's

the thing that you're good at that you

could get better at that you could be

better than you last year? That's the

key thing. Cuz take that thing, if you

can find out what that is for you, and

then apply some hard work and time,

that's your luck.

Be happy. I think it's a it's a powerful

thing to aspire to. You know, when

you're on a plane and it's going down

and the oxygen masks come, you have to

grab your mask first or you're no good

for anyone else. You being happy makes

the people around you happier. Better

for your friends, better for your

family, better for the world.

When you clicked on this video, I don't

know what you were expecting when they

told me Jimmy Carr was going to be on

the Diary of a CEO. I don't know what I

was expecting, but what I got and what I

learned and the person that showed up is

not the Jimmy Carr that I know from TV.

It's not the Jimmy Carr that I've

watched on TV for many, many decades.

The Jimmy Carr that came here today is

quite honestly a genius, a philosophical

thinker, an expert on the topic of

happiness. someone that writes in his

brand new book about finding and

pursuing your purpose. Jimmy Carr has

typically been known for his very

comedic oneliners. What he shares today,

it's deep. It's profound. And when you

find out that he was a Cambridge

graduate, it kind of makes sense because

Jimmy is a very, very smart man. Not

just books smarts, he's life smart. This

podcast today is one of my favorite of

all time because it has everything. Not

just those profound truths that I know I

know will change your life, but also a

very remarkable, compelling, vulnerable

personal story. One that starts with his

mom and his dad. One that starts with

dyslexia and feeling rejected at a very

young age. one that journeys through

being cancelled, controversy, panic

attacks, depression, and ultimately

finding himself. He says it himself.

This is the Jimmy Car you don't know.

But I'll tell you this, this is the

Jimmy Car you should. So, without

further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and

this is the Driver CEO. I hope nobody's

listening, but if you are, then please

keep this to yourself.

It's so funny because every time I do

this podcast, I always try and think of

a new place to start. But having read

your story and having read the stories

of my guests before they arrive, I

always end up starting in the same

place. So I was just sat there trying to

think of a new way to to come into it.

But I'm going to go for it. So your

childhood, Jimmy, very very pivotal. And

I I was reading throughout your

childhood about these really really

pivotal moments. pivotal moments of

changing school and family and mom and

dad. Take me to the the most important

context from your childhood. I suppose I

mean listen it's it's when you remember

stuff we're all um unreliable narrators

when we look back on our lives and I

think the gift of lockdown was that uh

memory and speed are inversely

proportionate that when you slow down in

life you remember more you kind of and

and it's a great time for kind of

recalibration and thinking well what

happened so the things that I recently

became a father so you're thinking about

childhood again in kind of this new way

and thinking well what are the what are

the things you would want for your child

what would you want to give them? And

also what were those key moments where

you get to decide who you are and I

think that the key bits in my childhood

were the moments where you become aware

you are a story you tell yourself. So I

moved schools when I was 16 and I was

kind of not a tear away but I was in

trouble and I was messing around and I

was with a uh a fairly rough crew. Uh

and I switched schools and told a

different story. Not to be Machavelian.

you just kind of arrived at the new

school and went well I guess I guess

maybe no one no one knows me here I

could just be whoever I want to be and

you become aware of how not consciously

but even at that early age aware that

you're not a noun you're a verb you're a

doing thing and you can do things

differently and you can do better and

then so that lesson obviously that you

then forget that and and you don't make

good on that again for a while so I was

kind of in my mid20s when the next big

kind of sea change of going right I'm

going to leave uh a job working for

someone and go on an adventure.

And it was I mean for me that kind of

mid20s thing was it's not childhood but

it feels like even at 25 I was um in an

archetypical way still a child because I

was living my life for someone else. I

hadn't really taken the reigns yet. I

hadn't really made a decision until I

was in my mid20s. So it felt like to me

I was like a big kid when I was 25 and

then suddenly at 26 yo ho ho a pirates

life for me.

I just I [ __ ] off and joined the

circus and became a comedian and started

leading my own life in a way that I

think I mean part of the reason for the

book is I think a lot of people aspire

to that. A lot of people want to um want

to find their purpose and they want to

they want to pursue it and you know it's

very sad a lot of people don't get to do

either. And when you changed school at

16 years old and you talk about you were

able to kind of shed this identity that

that school and environment and the

teachers there had given you.

Well, I think you've got baggage,

haven't you? When you're even when

you're 16, you got baggage. You go to

six form and you're oh, you're the tear

away kid. You're going to do like you're

going to do, you know, this well in your

exams. It's it's a um your past

indicates where your future's going to

go. And it doesn't have to be that way.

At some stage you just have to you you

cut those apron strings or you cut with

the past and go no I could be academic.

You know I'm I'm a I'm very dyslexic and

I didn't really learn to read and write

till I was about maybe 10 or 11 with any

level of proficiency and then I managed

to get myself to Cambridge. And part of

that is like a force of will. You just

go right I'm going to I'll do that. I'll

figure out how to do it. I'll figure out

what the code is. And often I think it's

that thing of like the thing that comics

do incredibly well. Well, I talk about

like the superpowers of comedians. What

comedians do brilliantly is they're

great at p pat pattern recognition. And

that strikes me as like the most

important thing in life for humans is

pattern recognition. Well, that that

kind of works like that. How do you

write an A-grade essay? It's not about

knowing about history. It's about

knowing the structure of what that essay

looks like. And so, you kind of lift the

structure and go, "Right, well, I'll

just I I'll I'll write to that formula."

Crack in the code on stuff. And I think

at every level you're trying to crack

new codes. You're trying to get better

at stuff.

And and do you think if you go back to

that that changing school scenario

again, you were given this identity and

that identity came with a set of like

implicit instructions on who you were

which we then all for some reason

subconsciously believe and then obey and

then we start fulfilling.

100%. I mean I think the the the things

that dictate our lives are our beliefs.

Your your life is as good as your you

believe it's going to be. I think I'm a

real advocate that disposition is more

important than position and 95% of life

is how you look at it and 5% is what

happens to you. So the idea that you go

what what are you going to believe?

Well, most of our beliefs that the

beliefs that really affect us are the um

presuppositions that we make. We don't

even think about them. We just think

it's oh I'm not the kind of person that

does that. I'm not the kind of person

because I'm not from that background or

I'm not I'm not from showbiz. I don't

know anyone in showbiz so I'm never

going to be in showbiz. And then you

allow yourself at some stage you go,

well, [ __ ] that. I'm gonna allow myself

to dream or to to uh to try and be more

than. But, you know, the premise of the

book kind of is there's nothing special

about me. It was not pre-ordained that I

was going to be a successful comedian

touring the world and being on TV. That

was not like a lock. I don't have a

irrefutable talent. I just I knew what I

wanted to do and you know what do you

want being the key question in life and

then I pursued it

kind of doggedly because I I found my

purpose and that strikes me as something

that's um achievable not you know I'm

not suggesting everyone goes out and

becomes a comedian but I want better

lives for everyone. I read um I read

that you said

you spent a lot of time cheering your

mother up.

Yeah. I think most comics I mean the

cliche is the comedian is depressed,

right? That's the go-to and it's such a

pleasing irony. Why wouldn't it be?

Because you go he's makes us laugh but

uh he's really down. You know the old um

you know the old story there's an old

joke about a guy is like super depressed

like he's going to kill himself. He's

really down and he goes to see a

psychiatrist and the psychiatrist says

well you need to you know you need to

cheer up. Grimmaldi is in town. The

great clown Grimaldi is in town. He's

the greatest clown the world has ever

seen. He's hil I saw him last. He's

hilarious. You won't even be able to

breathe because you'll be laughing so

much and you'll forget your worries and

you'll just be happy again.

And the guy goes, "But I am Grimaldi."

The great old joke about, you know, it's

like, "Okay, Tears of a Clown thing." I

think it's parents. I think my mother

was, if you talk to comedians, you'll

talk to a lot of comedians on this

podcast, right? So, I think the question

to ask is which parent was sick. It it

tends to be, you know, one of them, and

it tends to be either physical or mental

with my my mother was depressed. You

don't know that when you're a kid. You

just, you know, something isn't right.

No, you have to the atmosphere has to be

changed.

So you become very good at um at

changing people's states

and then that becomes your job. You lean

into that. That becomes a very important

thing that you place a lot of value on.

Now I hadn't put that together till I

was in my mid20s. But the idea of going

being able to change people's states is

a it's a it's an interesting skill set.

I mean, I like to think of myself as a

drug dealer,

but I'll never be taken by the feds

because the drugs are already on you.

You've got the the endorphins there.

You've got the good [ __ ] in there. And

it's about letting that out in a very um

sort of organic natural high of

laughter. And I'm a huge advocate of

live comedy because people laugh so much

more when they're in a crowd. It's a

it's a social noise. It's very tribal.

It's the the idea of like we all belong

to this thing. If you you watch your

favorite show on on the phone on the bus

and you'll smile and it won't do you any

good physiologically, but if you see it

in a crowd of 30 people with all your

friends around, it's like laugh. You cry

laughing.

I guess that's why they put canned

laughter on TV.

I think to encourage Yeah. to encourage.

I mean they can laugh at things slightly

a myth but yeah they they uh uh they do

you know and it does encourage you to

kind of do a little bit but it's um it's

really about that thing of it being a

tribal thing where we we sort of want to

belong and laugh with something and I

kind of feel that as a comedian you're

part of a very long tradition there's

always been comics you know there was

comedians and there's variety acts and

then there's court jesters and then

there's trickster gods uh you know and

Nancy and the monkey king and all these

kind all these things from our our sort

of deeprooted culture. There's always

someone saying the other

slightly outside looking in.

Um I think being an immigrant I think is

an important thing with that. I mean I

don't read as an immigrant in any way,

shape or form,

just your average white guy, but and I

sound like I was privately educated, but

it's interesting in the book of like

people's perception of you. You have to

be aware who you are and you have to be

aware how you're perceived. They're both

important. And you I think acceptance of

that is like a it's like that thing of

what's the first step on the journey to

finding your purpose. It's like well you

have to know who you are. You have to

start with like there's an honesty to

comedy of going right this is what I've

got.

Going back to that the first person you

were sort of I guess assigned to cherup

which was your mother. What was did you

know at the time she was depressed?

No I just thought was normal. I I mean

genuinely like

na she was a lot of fun and she was very

charismatic and people liked her. I sort

of could see that. And then you could

see people are complexed and nuanced.

And you could see that she was, you

know, she didn't get out of her dressing

gown most days. She didn't she she

wasn't engaged in in a in a way that was

normal. She didn't take care of herself.

Um, and it's a great sadness. you know,

you kind of look back and you feel a bit

guilty that maybe you could have done

more. Or I think even the debate now,

the culture that we that we have at the

moment where people are talking about

mental health and they're talking about

getting help and what to do and talking

therapies, it feels like there's a whole

world that's open now that maybe things

might have been different if if it had

been, you know, 20 years later, but it

felt like she was quite isolated and and

depressed. One of the things you you

talk about linking to that is the the

root cause of a lot of things, you know,

mental ailments, depression, um

addiction is a lack of a lack of

purpose. And it's a, you know, like

hazarding a guess at what the the causes

would be. And with depression, um it

somewhat bizarrely seems to be quite

generational at times. Did you ever

figure out or hazard a guess in your

later life what caused her to feel the

way she did? I make a lot of cases in

the book for conflated words like you

know words that you sort of think they

mean the same thing but they don't.

There's that's sort of a theme in the

book of sort of going well I think

happiness and pleasure are different and

I think um envy and jealousy are

different and I think uh depression and

sadness are very different. I think some

of it was circumstantial which which is

sadness

and there you know sadness is better. If

you could choose between sadness and

depression, go with sadness because it's

circumstantial. It's about uh it's about

nurture. It's about what's going on in

your world, who you're with, what's

going what's happening that's getting

you down. Okay? But depression is a much

more serious thing. There'll be people

listening to this or watching this that

are that suffer with depression. It's a

serotonin imbalance in the head. It's a

proper medical ailment. And we never

think of it like that. We never think of

it like that, right? You've never told

anyone with uh cancer, snap out of it.

Come on. Come on. Let's snap out of it.

Let's go and get a drink. Come on,

cancer. Come on. But someone depressed,

you've

100% people have done that. Come on.

You're depressed. Come on. We're going

to get a drink. We're going You got

nothing to be depressed about. I'll tell

you what's great. You know, you do that

and and you go, it's so crazy when you

stop and think about suicide as a

symptom of depression, not as a thing

that's a standalone. It's a symptom.

there's an epidemic of it going on, then

people aren't taking it seriously. It's

it's a it's I I think comedy is a very

valuable tool as well because it lends

perspective

and really what is suicide? It's a it's

a it's a it's a permanent solution to a

temporary problem.

It's so sad. You hear about young people

that's it's just it's a heartbreaker.

And I think often that thing of like

purpose is the is the cure. H do you

think? Yeah. So what I don't know why

I'm asking you this question because

these are these are you know these are

very complex questions specifically

around mental health but I I I think it

all of these questions come from my own

place of like deep deep curiosity um as

it relates to to mental health the

apparent increase in it in our society

whether that's because more people are

you know labeling it or because there

more people are actually going through

those um those elements. Well, I think

there's I think there is a um

you know, if we take it over, you know,

not a huge not geological time, but over

like a 30-year time plan, uh what's

happened for the last 30 years? Well,

it's the rise of the individual,

right? We've all become uh the

individual has become more powerful and

the group or the tribe has become less

powerful. And that is not only a force

for good. There's a negative to that as

well. So people feel that families are

smaller, um, groups are smaller, people

feel like they go their own way. So

we've never been more connected and felt

more alienated. It's, you know, we're

set up to to to fail almost. There's a

generation of people that feel like

they're incredibly connected and they

have a huge number of friends online,

but they have no one to talk to. And

that's a it's a it's a that's a

difficult thing. And they don't feel

maybe part of a group. They always feel

a little bit other. So that's, you know,

if you there's a great book called

Selfie and a great book called Tribe. I

remember sort of reading them back

toback and thinking, yeah, there

something's going on here. And why do

why does everyone want to go to

Glastonbury? Why does everyone want to

go to a music festival? It's not

necessarily because they, you know, I

love that song. See that song anyway.

You play that song on your headphones.

But they want to feel part of something

and they want to be in a crowd with

other people and feel a sense of

belonging. There's there's something a

little bit our societyy's unbelievably

great and I love that kind of Steven

Pinker enlightenment now thing about

right it's the best it's ever been.

There's [ __ ] terrible things

happening but it's the best it's ever

been. I love that positive attitude, but

there are serious issues, especially I

mean it seems especially for young

people, it seems like it's um I mean

part of the reason to write the book is

I have a son,

but also the people that come and see my

shows and the people that go well I

don't I don't know what to do

and yet you know and they come out for a

laugh or whatever and you go well I'm

not I'm the jester here. I don't have

any answers but this is what worked for

me. So sharing that felt like a um a

really a sort of privilege to be able to

do that. And you think about your life

and your childhood and the people that

you met along the way that made huge

differences with seemingly small

interventions.

The world seems to be hurtling more and

more in the direction of individualism,

loneliness. I mean the stats would back

that up that we're getting more and more

lonely as we're moving online. You know,

Facebook announced they're changing

their name to Meta last week and

they're,

you know, building the the metaverse,

which we're all going to live in. And

it's interesting how empathetic and

beautiful people are one-on-one.

You know, if you you've ever met someone

one-on-one that's a cancel culture is an

interesting thing to talk about, right?

Because I get cancelled at some stage in

the next two years. It just happens.

Let's just accept that for a joke I've

done online. It's already out there.

It's pointless me worrying about it. But

that thing of like one-on-one with

people, people are incredibly empathetic

and kind. And there's a thing that we're

doing now where we're not on a Zoom

call. We're across the table from each

other looking into each other's eyes

having a conversation. There's an

intimacy to that. There's like a there's

like a okay, we're going to have a

conversation here and we're going to see

each other's points of view and we're

going to talk about it. And it's a it

it's there's something about this that

goes back 10,000 years. Like people have

always done this. the online thing you

what are we missing from that with that

that immediiacy and I think the the

crisis in lockdown where people were

literally locked down and shut away it's

just it's not good for us

how do we change it

well I don't know I mean I think there's

I I don't know is is the answer I mean I

think there's the really simple [ __ ] is

is not getting done

for me because it feels like this big

boat that's going in one direction and

it's speeding up. And what I mean by

that is we're actually building our

lives into the digital space which is

making us more socially connected online

but more disconnected in the real world.

There's an interesting thing going on. I

mean I it's interesting and terrible. Um

where people are I I sort of quote a lot

in the book. I use a lot of quotes

because I sort of think quotes are the

truth. Like it's everything else has

been burnt away. There's nothing left

but these six or seven words that just

sum something up and you go that's just

[ __ ] that's stuck around for 50 years

for a reason. That's just [ __ ] true.

So the I think it's Elellanena Roosevelt

that said, you know, comparison is the

thief of joy, which I love because we're

comparing our lives to everyone else,

right? We're the classic, you know,

millennial kind of phrase of like you're

comparing your insides to someone else's

outsides. But even there's another thing

layered on top of that now where I don't

know you online, but you have an online

profile and you might well be jealous of

yourself online because you look at your

pictures of yourself online and you're

always smiling and you're always with

beautiful people drinking a cocktail on

a beach, beautiful car, beautiful thing.

That thing of like you can't you're

disconnecting with how you feel and how

you you choose to express yourself

digitally. Um, so that there's it's a

it's an odd thing that's that's

happening. I think like feeling

connected to other people and laughing

with other people. I think it's here's

how we fix it, right? It's nature and

nurture, right? So oldest debate in the

world. Nature, nurture. What's

important? Well, who [ __ ] cares?

Nature's the cards we were dealt, right?

That's what we got. We got this. I got

this. You got that. Okay. All right. You

win. So, so, but that thing of going the

nature nurture thing is right. You've

got the nature. That's fine. That's the

cards. How you going to play it is the

nurture. And I think there's a

perception that nurture is finished at

15, 18, 20, 21. At what stage do you

think you're done? I'm done. Off to the

world now. Going to kill it. Like it's a

nonsense. Nurture is like an ongoing

process of like and thinking about it

giving it even five minutes thought of

going right who do I like and why do I

like them? Well, I like I like who I am

with people. That's why I like them.

So when I'm with my child, I like who I

am. When I'm a dad, I like playing that

role. I like being that part. I like I

like who I am when I'm with my friend

Johnny and we're chatting about music. I

like who I am when I'm with, you know,

my my my friend uh Matt and we're

chatting about aliens or what, you know,

those things. And spending finding more

time with those people and laughing and

connecting with the people that make you

happy.

That seems to be the the you know, the

smart thing. I mean that you know I

suppose there simple [ __ ] like you know

putting your phone away for a day. Have

you ever done that? We did it on our

last holiday.

My go

I haven't had a holiday for two years.

Yeah. But that thing of like we put our

phones in the we check the phone in the

morning to see no one interesting's

died. You don't want to miss a biggie.

You know what I mean? You don't want to

miss [ __ ] Diana too. Whatever the

[ __ ] So you put the phone in the safe

in the morning

and then you have your day and then you

check it in the evening. You give

yourself the the the rush of I've got so

many emails. Oh my god.

And and then it's it's interesting

though of that that feeling of

decompressing and most people don't

don't have that. Not that you know it's

not I'm not saying that digital world is

you know a terrible thing and it's

clearly the way we're going. So we have

to learn to to live with that.

We talked there about one half of your

parental equation.

Tell me about the other half.

Well, you know, I've just become a

father

and I'm acutely aware that it doesn't

always work out. I haven't seen my

father in 20 years, I guess. Um, it's a

long time.

Um, and I I don't have a a relationship

with him. And listen, there's there's

three stories, mine and yours, and then

the truth. Um, but that's the facts of

the matter is I don't have any

relationship with my father. So, that

makes me um that's another lesson in

life though, isn't it? She go, right, if

you don't have a father, don't be a

dummy about it. Don't not have a father.

Just find a different one.

F that archetype is so important to our

development. Having a mother is, you

know, when my mother died, I didn't go,

well, I guess, you know, the older

female nurturing

um archetype. I just I guess I'll live

without that. You go, you find other

people that are going to maybe not one

other person, but you find a you put

your team together, you put your nurture

together, and you you go, well, I need

to find those people. you need to find I

mean I suppose I'm lucky in the the job

that I do that you have certain you know

people are further down the road so if

you look to them as kind of mentors or

you look to them as as uh as people that

you want to impress and you want to you

know you're aware of that what you need

and and now you've had a son

that must be uh you know there was two

things you talked about that real really

really pivotal in recent times one of

them was the pandemic

and the other one was obviously the

birth of your of your own man. What are

the the top level, you know, shifts that

have occurred in you because of those

two events?

Well, I suppose I mean, I got I was kind

of late to fatherhood, I think, because

um I think it was I think

psychologically I think maybe I didn't

want to be uh I didn't want to be a

father because I didn't want to be my

father.

Uh and you know, so you find a different

way through. You find different models.

You know, I've got friends that are

incredible fathers and you kind of model

that and it's that thing of like

it's what humans do. We kind of go like,

"Okay, well, I could kind of do that. I

could see what he's doing there and

that's amazing." So, that felt like I

mean, it's such a I mean, everyone does

it. It's like not a big deal that I've

had a kid, but it it's a big deal in my

life, obviously. It's like it's uh it's

there's a quote in the book. I love

quotes. Um it's like having a medical

procedure where your heart now lives

outside your body.

I kind of there's a bit of me that kind

of I wish I'd done it sooner. And then

there's another there's another bit of

me that goes, I wasn't ready for it

sooner. I'm ready for it now.

Interesting. My friend said that to me.

He's just had a baby and he said, "Oh, I

just wish I'd done it sooner."

I'm thinking, really?

But, you know, but it got you to to

there. It's like it's it's funny.

There's a great Chinese expression, a

great old proverb. The best time to

plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second

best time is now.

They're pretty wise, those Chinese guys.

They know what they're talking about.

Going back to, you know, your university

time because I remember cuz just kind of

going through in chronological order. I

remember I was reading about how you,

you know, you leave the nest, you go and

get, you know, you go and get a you go

to Cambridge, which I thought was

amazing considering you're, you know,

you were an undiagnosed dyslexic.

Oh, diagnosed. Um,

at the time you were undiagnosed. Yeah,

I got diagnosed at college, but I only

got diagnosed as dyslexic to get a free

laptop. I mean, that was like I didn't

really particularly care. I didn't make

any odds. You just get long longer to

sit your exams, but it was um yeah, it's

a it was it was nice. I mean, I think I

wouldn't recommend it to young people

because I think it's um Cambridge is

still now very anacronistic. It's like

going to college in the 1950s.

It's like a time machine. It's like it's

just it's very old school. And I mean,

maybe it's changed a bit, but I don't

think it's changed much. It's like

living in a church.

Yeah.

It's cloistered in every sense.

Yeah. So it's, you know, it is what it

is. But there's, you know, it's also

what are you going there for? I think I

went there for

in an unthinking way sort of it was a

away from something. I think I'd

remembered at a very deep level not

being able to read when I was a kid and

kind of being in the special ed class

and then wanting desperately to prove

myself. And so you kind of get there and

get your degree and go, "Right, well, I

never have to worry about that again,

which is dumbest thing in the world." I

mean, you know, everyone with any kind

of education has educated themselves

because really, what do you remember

from college years ago?

Yeah.

Like it's whatever you're reading now.

And fast forward a few years, you get

your degree, you uh get a job at Shell

as a marketing exec.

Again, unthinking. Absolutely

unthinking. Like it just it wasn't like

it was like a binary thing of like going

I didn't make a choice when I was 16 to

stay on at school. That was just like

the sensible thing. What what's everyone

doing? We're all staying at school.

Okay. We're all going to go to

university then at 18. Okay. Right.

What's the best one? Okay. We'll try and

get to the best one. If you can't get

into that one, get into the second best

one. If not, you know, so you it's like

a conveyor belt. And then after

university was right, everyone's getting

jobs. Okay. I guess I'll get a job. But

it's amazing how little thought I put

into my life.

Amazing really. And when you consider

that I do something that is considered

to be uh you know very creative, you

know, I write jokes and tell jokes for a

living and you go, "Oh, I it was a lack

of imagination that kind of [ __ ] me

and and it [ __ ] you, right?" Tell me

how what were the symptoms of being

[ __ ] by that?

Well, I think it was the the it was uh

again sadness, not depression, but in my

mid20s just thinking, is this it? Is

this all there is? It felt like it was a

trudge. I didn't have any purpose. I was

um working to live, not living to work.

And I think it's not not everyone's

going to get that. Not everyone gets

that break. And I'm very aware that it's

not like, come on, dummies, get a job

that you love and get up and you're

excited about every day. It's like it's

not easy for everyone. It takes an awful

lot of work to find out what that thing

is that's going to make your heart sing

and then, you know, you find something

you love doing and you never work again.

It's not an easy thing, but if you can,

it's worth betting your life on it.

You write about that in the book, the

two adventures we all have in our lives,

which is finding your purpose and

obviously going in the pursuit of it.

It sounds like yours happened crazy

early, like kicked out of school,

dropped out of college, and then went

right, I'm starting a company. Like that

seems

And then you'd left the company by the

time you were 27. You were you were

almost onto midlife crisis, I think, at

27. It's true. which is

it's it's completely true.

That's great though. I mean it means you

get to die at 50 and you've done

everything.

Exactly. Yeah. I

So what was what was the what was that?

Because do you see I mean I sort of talk

about a quarter life crisis

of being finding your purpose and

cutting the apron strings and and and

that's about I think it's about

responsibility.

It's about going oh I'm in charge of

this. I can't blame anyone else. This is

all me. This is all my fault. which

should be an empowering phrase but

sounds terrible but it's all my fault.

The idea that right I'm I'm in charge.

Uh and I think it's often that thing of

like the expectation of parents or

whatever it is the the idea that you're

living your life vicariously through

someone else or someone's living

vicariously through you rather is like

JK Rowling said this brilliant thing

about where do you draw the line? Where

do you draw the line on taking

responsibility for your life? Because if

a 16-year-old kid says to me, "Yeah, I'm

kind of [ __ ] up, but my parents are

dicks." You go, "Oh, that sounds fair

enough."

Yeah. Okay. But if a 40-year-old says

the same thing, you go, "Motherfucker,

please. Come on."

Yeah.

You're 40. Where do you draw the line?

The answer is somewhere. Somewhere you

draw the line. And there'll be 16 year

olds listening to this going, "Yeah, I'm

not blaming anyone for any anything. I'm

just I'm I'm doing this myself."

Where do you draw the line?

I think I was about 25.

You think 25 is where you got to take

No, no, That's why I do for you. Okay.

It's different for everyone. It's going

to be it's your road to Damascus. It's

your oh this is my one life. I mean I

think my loss of religious faith was a

very important part of my um

same

life. I think it was a huge thing of

going religious faith faith for me was

the ultimate in procrastination. It was

about the next life.

Yeah. And it was also there's

potentially a puppet master and a judge.

So, I've just got to play to this Bible

potentially or you know what when I was

the same. I lost my religious faith in

Christianity when I was 18,

right? I was a bit late to the party. I

was about, you know, 24 25 something

like that.

And it's it's um and I don't view it I

don't view atheism as like a this isn't

going to be um Christopher Hitchens and

Dawkins, you know, it's not like it's

not like a dry intellectual

aesthetic. It's like it's a rush of

blood to the head. It's like one [ __ ]

life and this is it. And we're in it

right now and there isn't a second to

waste. Let's do this. What are we doing?

What am I doing? What's exciting? What's

fun? What's and and kind of stand or

fall, it doesn't matter.

Yeah. When I realized that I was an

atheist after trying to convince my

brothers of a Jesus and a and a god and

then really realizing I was an atheist,

I spent two years absolutely obsessed

with atheism. So, Dawkins, I watched

every video, every book you could read.

And then I was an antagonist to to

religious people because it's almost

like I was trying to

still at the center.

Yeah. It was still And

you don't lose it overnight. So it's

still it's like it's like people that

are you know

people with you know oh well I I live as

a um you know a hippie commune with no

belongings. You're still putting money

at the center. Yeah. Exactly.

You're kind of it's still the focus of

that religious thing of going well I've

lost my religious belief so now atheism

is my new religion.

Exactly.

It's like an addict never really gets

over an addiction. and they just get

addicted to something new.

Yeah.

And I think that's why I think purpose

is the thing.

And I think purpose as well for someone

who's had a religious upbringing to go

right well, I'm going to what's the new

thing? What are the new rules for me?

What are the rules for what's my

morality? What's my life going to be

like? So that's it's very exciting. I

mean, it really feels like it's a I

would encourage people to kind of think

about it. And for me, it was just the

the basics. I don't know how you lost

yours, but mine was like so basic.

It was exactly the same. I read I read

how you lost yours and it was I it was

exactly the same.

If I'm right about this

then all those it's not Yeah. It's good

news for me and the other Christian boys

but it's very bad news for Ishmael.

Yeah.

[ __ ] hell, TK. It's bad news for you.

Yeah. So you you went somewhere.

I went to Jerusalem. Yeah. I went to

Jerusalem and I had a look around and

you go,

"Oh, this is some [ __ ] This is

Disney." I mean, Jerusalem's one of the

most beautiful cities in the world. I

would encourage anyone to go there. It's

it's wonderful and I I love Israel. But

you you go there and you go, "This is

900 years old, not 2,000 years old,

please. This is let's stop kidding

ourselves. This is not none of this

happened. This is Disneyland." Um, and I

think there's a stage of throwing the

baby out with the bathwater. And then

you read more when I don't know if

you've kind of done this, but you you

read about the myth and what it is and

what it you know, the story of Christ is

interesting. It's an interesting story,

but the story the the the

the myth of it is interesting, not the

factual character.

I couldn't care less. Um, but that thing

of like what remains when everything is

burnt away. That's what I get from that

story.

Okay. So, if you burn everything else

away, what's essential you? What's the

thing that's left when there's nothing?

That's interesting. You go through

trials in life. You go through, you

know, hard times and what remains. And

when you lost your faith on that point,

did you were you kind of destabilized

by Yeah. unanchored almost, you know?

Yeah. I didn't leave my job to be rich

and famous on TV.

I left my job

for I don't Yeah. Yo ho ho, a pirates

life for me. We're doing comedy. I'm

doing a gig above a pub. Someone gave me

20 pounds cash in hand. That was I mean

it was crazy. I'd had like a good job,

but it's that thing where you go, the

good is the enemy of the best. How much

to not live your life? How much to not

follow your dreams? How much do I have

to give you across the table? Now, I'm

saying this to you now, right? And

you're you're a wealthy man. You're an

investor or whatever. So, it's going to

be a high figure. But for most people in

their mid20s, they've just left college

or early 20s, they've left college. and

you go,

they give you 35 grand to compromise on

everything and always be tired and just

work to my time and people go, "Okay,

that's the the thing of like working for

someone else is I think that that's the

big shift, right?" So the the my standup

is a metaphor in the book. I'm not

trying to get people to become

stand-ups. Frankly, I don't need the

[ __ ] competition. But the idea of

going going and doing your thing, even

if it's less successful, but doing your

thing, being your boss, being your CEO,

great. Like, I'm all about that. When

people tell me they've started a little

business or done a little thing, you

just go, "Yeah, [ __ ] boss." Because

you you get like serial u entrepreneurs

because they do it once and go, "Yeah,

I'm not working for anyone. I'm not."

Let's challenge this. So, when I started

my business, I had many, many bosses cuz

I had lots of clients. So, I've got

people that can call me at 3M and just

give me [ __ ] And I think even as you

know when I and then I had investors as

well and they can call me and give me

[ __ ]

Yeah. But we listen, Bob Dylan got to

this before we ever did. We all have

someone to serve, right? That's just the

the nature of life, right? So, listen, I

work for myself and I'm a [ __ ] boss

and making huge money. I've got an

audience to serve every night. Got 2,000

people that need to laugh for two hours

three times a minute.

[ __ ] hell.

And that's my boss, right? So, I've got

to lean into I've got to make sure that

they're happy or none of this can

happen. So, we all have people to serve.

Of course, that's that's part of life.

You you have But you find out you do it

on your terms, in your way. Great. I

don't mind the call at 3:00 a.m. I don't

mind the audience wanting more. I don't

mind you, that's great. The travel,

anything that's all fine because I have

the true north of a of a purpose,

you know. And then it's it's that other

thing on life where you kind of go I

write in the book quite a lot about

money about the idea of like what is it

what's going on there because it's such

a powerful thing we spend so much of our

lives we give up so much for these

tokens and it's that classic line that

you know to buy [ __ ] we don't need to

impress people we don't like

it's it like

who was it the it's Byron has the quote

money is a magic lamp

you You have to know what to wish for.

You have to know what you want.

Otherwise, what are you doing?

Like, I mean, we're sort of in the city

of London now. There's people working in

the city that are just like they're

making huge money and they're they're

buying the Rolex. But what for?

Quick one. Um, when Jimmy got here off

camera before we started chatting, he uh

he walked up and he saw the Hu bottle on

the table and I went to explain to him

what Hu was and he goes, "Oh, you don't

need to tell me. I I drink Hu all the

time." And he went on to explain that he

has hu before he goes up on stage

because it it's nutritionally complete

and gives him all the vitamins and

minerals and energy that he needs before

he goes up on stage. Um, and that's

exactly why I have here. And that's the

beauty of having a podcast sponsor that

you so deeply believe in and one that

has genuinely transformed your life.

I've just landed back from Indonesia. I

am all go because my entire schedule

because I've been away for four four odd

weeks has been condensed into the month

of November and I am running right now

at a tremendous pace to get everything

in my schedule ticked off. Hule is there

to make sure that my health and my

nutrition is ticked off at the same time

as my professional ambitions. That's the

role it's always played in my life. Zoom

me right in on that moment then. You're

working at Shell as a marketing

executive. There's a day, is it a

moment, is it a comment where you think,

"Fuck this." And then to go from there

to comedian. Yeah.

It doesn't make any sense to an external

one.

It doesn't. I mean,

make it make sense for me, please.

Okay. So, I had a boss there, a guy

called Mike Har, who I'm recently kind

of got back in touch with a little bit.

So, I was I was working for Shell. I

initially worked for an advertising

agency.

He's the one you call an [ __ ] in your

book.

No, I'm joking. Joking,

but that would that was good. Uh, so

he's he's that's a typo. Um, it's funny

the uh so I was working for an

advertising company and then I figured

out okay advertising this is this is

[ __ ] Who's who are these people

calling me asking me for [ __ ] are

marketing managers right? Get into

marketing. So got a job with Shell. So

I'm working for Shell and then I kind of

figured out look I'm not happy here. I

was kind of low energy. I was not the

funny guy in the office. I was just like

this is this is [ __ ] We're all

working here for shareholder value. I

couldn't give a [ __ ] And uh I I went,

"Okay, well, what's a cooler job? What's

a better version of this?"

So, I went and did like the McKenzie

Boston consulting interviews. So, I was

like I said to my boss, let's nice guy,

Mark, Mike, I said, "Look, I'm going to

I'm going to go and try and get a job

one of these things." And he sat me down

in his office and just went,

"No, I can't see it. I can't see it.

just you're just gonna have the same

problem somewhere else. I just don't see

it. And that was kind of enough. It was

enough that he saw me as like a funny,

nice guy and just went, "Yeah, this

isn't for you. You're in the wrong

stream." You know, so the ladder, the

analogy of the the the ladder that

you've climbed is leaning against the

wrong wall. And there's no finer

like like ripping up your CV

metaphorically going, I never need this

again. No one needs to know how I did in

my A levels ever again. No one gives a

[ __ ] about my degree. I mean, maybe some

of this stuff will come in handy on Qi

10 years later, but otherwise, who

cares? And you're just off doing your

thing. And it's, you know, none of that

was wasted. I mean, an education is a

incredible thing. What a gift to have.

Um, but it just felt like it was it was

kind of freedom. And they they did a

little voluntary redundancy thing which

was meant to get rid of the dead wood.

It was meant to get rid of people at,

you know, 55, 60 and just get them out

the door so more people could come in.

And I was on the management graduate

scheme thing, blue chip thing. I just

went, "Yeah, can I what would I get if I

left?" They went, "Five grand." And I

went, "I'm out." [ __ ] great. Not only

am I leaving, they give me my money to

leave.

And I was, it's weird. I had like a

reputation when I started doing comedy

of being um the hardest working comic

because I went out 300 nights a year

every year. for the first 5 years just

like was like just honor.

I was so feckless at work.

It's a really good indication of if

you're doing the right thing

if like I used to put in a meeting at

11:00 a.m. on a Friday and another

meeting in at 2 a.m.

so that I could go to a movie in

Leicester Square and be back and just

go, "Oh yeah, nothing happened." Just

like a lazy [ __ ]

Isn't that so interest? I was exactly

the same. I I my attendance and score

was 30 40%. But then and in fact it

wasn't in my business class. was 100% my

business class and then when I left

school as this lazy kid that was going

to fail, I outworked everybody at the

thing that I love doing business.

It's interesting, right? So, it's a

really good feedback loop of like for

anyone listening to this of going, what

do you find easy? What you know, what's

your edge? That's the other thing I talk

about a lot in the book, your edge.

What's your thing, the thing that you do

better than anyone else? You don't have

to be the best in the world, by the way.

You don't have to be better than anyone

else. But what's the thing that you're

good at that you could get better at

that you could be better than you last

year?

That's the key thing because take that

thing if you can find out what that is

for you and then apply some hard work

and time that's your luck.

Be lucky. I always say that like be

lucky. But that that's what I mean by

luck. Luck and happiness being sort of

the same in German. It's a lovely uh

sticky phrase like be lucky. Like if you

put that in you're you're buying lottery

tickets every time, right? So that hard

work you put into the business. It's

like lottery ticket, lottery ticket,

lottery ticket, lottery ticket. And hey,

presto, one of them hits because you're

there all the hours, working all the

hours, and you're working smart. You're

working at the thing you're best at.

You're kind of super focused on that. I

want to talk to you about that point

about hard luck because that's been um

stigmatized in our society. But before

that, you said something which is f, you

know, find that thing within you that

you can be the best at, the thing that

you enjoy, etc., etc. When I when I say

that to people, they always say to me,

"But Steve, how how do I find the thing?

How do I find my purpose? Is it just I

sit down with myself and make a list? Do

I

Yeah, I mean, I I literally went through

uh there's two books. Um Zen and the Art

of Making a Living I would recommend to

people. It's still available. And

there's a book called um What Color Is

Your Parachute?" They're quite

corporate. both of them. Even Zen and

The Art of Make a Living is quite

corporate, but it's basically you write

essays about yourself and you you it's a

workbook. It's like a big chunky

workbook. I did both of them and it kind

of and for me I kind of then slightly

threw it away and went show business.

But it's interesting of like knowing

yourself like who really knows you? Your

friends probably know you. Ask them ask

them what they think. That's it's an

interesting sort of process to kind of

go like and you could be a ripe old age

and this would still apply like do you

know who you are, how you're perceived

and who you really are, what you feel

like. Um because it's it's that thing

where you got like those personality

tests online are not dumb to do. You

know that there's that um

breaks no there's a Jordan Peterson one

understanding myself. like 100 questions

and it tells you things that's that's

worth

I had a crack at that recently and

really enjoyed it like because you get

the results and go I agree with that. So

that's surprising. Well, you know, it's

it's interesting. It's almost like a um

a um a horoscope like everyone likes

their horoscope, right? Because

everyone's a little bit egotistical and

like I wonder what it says about me. And

I think those personality tests kind of

can be very very useful for going well

how are you going to find your edge?

What's the thing you enjoy? Is it being

with people? Is it on your own? Are you

introverted, extroverted? That

MyersBriggs thing might lead you in a

direction of going, "Well, I can't be

I'm not going to be a salesman. I'm

going to be and these are jobs we're

talking about as opposed to um something

beyond that like a purpose, a career, an

entrepreneurial spirit.

Um

people find that. So I've I've done the

MyersBriggs, I've done this, I've done

the Jordan Peterson test and it's clear

that my passion is X, but I'm in that

job unthinking as you describe it and

I've got a mortgage to pay. I've got,

you know, bills.

Well, I mean that thing of like I nearly

fell into that trap. I was like the

things you own end up owning you. Like

there's nothing you can buy in the mall

that you give a [ __ ] about in 5 years

time. There's nothing like like in the

early phase of your life. Don't [ __ ]

buy anything because it's like, you

know, the things you own end up owning

you. Like the payments on a sports car

nearly stopped me going into comedy

because you go, well, what ties you

down? If I bought a house in, you know,

the ' 90s when I was, you know, working

for Shell. It would have been a great

investment and I never would have left

because you're paying that mortgage,

you're doing that thing, what do you

need? You know, what do what do you need

the money for? What are you using the

money for? You know, when you take away

the commute and you take away the um the

lunch that you're buying and the night

out, the weekend and a couple of drinks

to, you know, because you need some fun,

it's it's it's amazing how little when I

first year in comedy, I made literally

no money. I mean, literally nothing.

First money I got was £80 in cash for

going to driving 5 hours to Plymouth and

back. But I had a little bit saved. I

had this like five grand from Shell and

I was living at my mom's uh initially.

So, it was like it's fine. I had enough.

You know that that amazing story about

um Kurt Vonager and uh Joseph Hela?

Yeah.

They're at a party in New York and the

part is [ __ ] incredible. Right. So

the it's in the Hamptons, right? So the

guy's he's married to a supermodel. He's

got warholes. He's got Picassos. The

house is unbelievable. Like the Wolf of

Wall Street party that incredible

amazing party. Everyone's there. And

Kurt Vonager, incredible writer, says to

Joseph Ella, "This guy made more money

one day last week than you made out of

catch 22." Like laughs at him. And

Joseph Ella goes, "Yeah, but I got

something he'll never have." Enough.

What's enough? What's enough for you?

What's What's enough? What's the There's

two things going on, right? There's

There's safety and security, right?

There's our caveman thing of like going,

"Right, I need we need to be secure.

That's about a bear not attacking,

right? We feel pretty secure in our

worlds, right? And then scarcity is

about, it's another caveman thing of

like going, "Okay, so we need to collect

some stuff cuz winter is coming, so we

need some we need some coin. We need a

little bit of gold to take care of us."

How much is enough? I mean, there's

going to be a trillionaire next five

years. There's going to be someone's

going to be a trillionaire. It's going

to be in the news. You know why? Because

a billion wasn't enough. And the

millionaires are billionaires

trillionaires. But they're working for

money. The money is the is the important

thing. It's the that's what that's the

whole center of their being.

It's interesting because as I reflect on

my childhood, I was clearly the one of

the big drivers for my success was

insecurity. Broke family, black kid in

an all-white school. Um parents were

never in the house. I'm going to school

every day with [ __ ] stained trousers

and stained t-shirts and no money. So

like this this deep insecurity must have

been like sort of burnt into me that

like if you get money Steve then you

won't feel ashamed anymore.

It's it's interesting. I think it's a

really interesting point because as

someone that lost their faith.

Um I think fame and fortune are the

secular heaven.

Like we get rich and famous and

everything's okay. There's no problems

when you're rich and famous.

That's what I thought.

Everything's fine. Well, of course,

because it is like a if you think about

like legacy now becomes

the afterlife.

Yeah.

And fame and fortune become uh the

recognition of people that we don't know

becomes a type of heaven.

So I think that's a it's a perfectly

rational thing to to you know are you

moving towards something or away from

something? Well, in an ideal world it's

kind of a mix of the two. And at what

stage do you personally and I think

probably if I was I'm not a

psychotherapist but I would say you need

to build some ritual around it and I'm

sure you did when you sold your company

or left but build some ritual have a

trip do something shamanic and go we did

it we're okay we have enough.

Yeah.

And now focus on towards something.

Yeah.

But that's like that part of your life

is kind of over now. Right. It's like

the the what was that thing for you?

What was the

kind of trying to trying to escape pain

and get to a point of I guess freedom

and freedom is a very psychological

thing. It's the freedom from shame,

freedom from not being able to, freedom

from having to do things you don't want

to do. And I think really freedom from

shame. I think that's probably at the

very heart of it.

Oh, that's I think that's what it is.

It's very deep, man, because it's it's

that thing where you go,

I feel um empathetic towards the younger

you. That's like a tough thing to have

to go through.

But you go kind of great. Kind of great.

Look at what look at how far you got

on away from.

Yeah.

Without even the towards without even

the amazing kind of, you know, and it's

it's like, well, what next? That's a

it's a sad story. But then you you you

look at people that got given everything

and have done nothing because they had

no sense of purpose. They had no fire

under them. I had no I think um

yeah it's it's it's kind of an inspiring

story but then it's you know there's no

I suppose it's like what what's going to

motivate you next what's going to be the

thing that you go you know what do I

want to do

and this is exactly it so you think

about how important purpose is for

people to feel stabilized and fulfilled

etc as we've talked about earlier and

then you think about these people that

are they're striving for a million a

billion a trillion.

Well, think about what a midlife crisis

is, right? So, I talk a lot about

midlife crisis in the book and you go,

"Well, midlife crisis is someone that's

found their purpose and they've done

their thing and then they've gone, is

this it?"

Yeah.

Is this it? And then they want something

like excitement. So, what do they buy?

Sports car. Is it exciting? I don't

[ __ ] know. I mean, maybe. If you're

super into cars, I guess it's good. But

like, it's all advertising speaks to

this, right? I know I'm right cuz all

advertising ever is about it's no longer

about the functionality of the product.

It's about the well what what do you

want? You want to you want to feel like

uh

self-esteem

like self-esteem? Great. Rolls-Royce.

You want excitement? We got Ferraris for

you.

You want your dick up? We got a Porsche.

Whatever the thing is the you know you

got that that kind of there's a

different one and they're playing on

different emotions. And I think being

aware of I mean I come back to it all

the time. What do you want is the

fundamental question.

Like in any scenario, when you sit down

to eat, what do you want? What do you

want from life?

What do you want? What's what's the

thing that you want? And often it's it's

often asking that question multiple

times because the first answer tends to

be

[ __ ]

Well, I think wishing wells work, right?

But they don't work when you think they

work. It's nothing to There's no magic.

The magic is, if there is any, knowing

what to wish for, knowing what that

thing is. You know, someone says, "I

want a million pounds." You go, you

don't know what you [ __ ] want. You

want tokens for things that you might

want in the future. What do you want?

What are you doing? What are you trying

to be? Who who are you trying to become?

I ask people this, young people

specifically this question, and they

will say things that are all about

external validation. So I want to be

like you know the one variation of

famous that you know they might say

public speaker and you say why do you

want to be a public speaker and really

when you get to the crux of it what they

actually want to be is they want the

admiration that they think public

speakers get because you know their dad

didn't talk to them or something.

Yeah. But I could I could see that the

idea of going I think a lot of that is

like

that tribal thing of going I want to be

recognized. I'm in a very privileged

position in that I'm famous. And I would

argue

that's the norm. That's the norm for the

longest time in human history that

everyone knew everyone. We used to live

in what for like 10,000 years. You know

what? Longer. The longest time we were

we were in tribes between 60 and 100

people. Everyone knew everyone. A

stranger was a weird thing.

And now we see strangers all the time

and we act like it's normal, but it

ain't. And so that desire to belong, to

be famous, what is was ever thus. It's

always been that way. There was a

there's a you know it was in ancient

Rome people wanted to be famous and

wanted to be adored and wanted to be

that's like a it's valid and and you

know how do you deal with that? How do

you

how do you get that thing and if if it

helps them strive I think like I make a

real distinction between jealousy and

envy

in in the book and I talk about jealousy

being bad. I don't want you to have

that. I don't want you to have that. I

don't necessarily want it but I don't

want you to have it. [ __ ] that guy. He

shouldn't have that. Why do you get

given that? That's some [ __ ]

Envy is really good. Envy is like, it's

what you want. It's like motivation.

It's like, oh, that guy's he's got an

electric scooter that looks really cool.

I'm going to get one of those. Great.

You know what you It tells you what you

want. It tells you what the what's the

thing that you're attracted to. So, I

think it's like it can be a real force

for good. So that thing of like when you

were a kid and you're looking at the

other kids

and they're suited and booted and clean

and tidy going to school and their

parents are there and you go right I'm

building that for me.

I I investigated this particular topic

in my in my book at great length but I

want to ask you the question as if I

don't know the answer because I want to

get your take on it. Um I agree with

everything you said and I I al

especially this point about knowing that

you're enough now. Um, in my book, I got

to a point in chapter 18 where I'm like,

how do I know that I'm enough right now,

but also get the purpose and fulfillment

that comes from ambition and striving

for more? And it felt like a

contradiction like I am enough. I have

everything I need.

Yeah. I think we're talking about here

we're talking about gratitude. It's that

thing of like you're grateful for what

you got. You're grateful for what you've

got. Just the solid state. If you lose

everything tomorrow, you got your

health,

right? And there's people out there that

don't. and you've got friends around

you, great. You you know that gratitude

can't be stifling. You've like

practicing gratitude. I mean, they've

done all the statistical studies on it.

It makes such a difference to your life

to be grateful for what you have and to

go, "Right, this is [ __ ] amazing."

Like I, you know, the older you get, the

more your friends die, the more you go,

[ __ ] and never got to see this, never

got to enjoy that thing, never got to

sad. had a friend pass away recently and

you you just you become aware of your

mortality and you're so grateful to be

here and to be in this game and to be uh

around. But that gratitude can't stop

you from going, but I also want to go

further and farther. And I think the

great thing about being a comic is we're

brilliant with failure. We we made

friends with failure a long time ago.

We've died many times on stage. I've

written more jokes that don't work than

you.

so many more. You may not have written

any jokes that don't work. I've written

thousands of them. But that thing of

like that feedback loop of failure is so

it it's it's such a great life lesson to

learn because you go, "Well, look, I can

fail all the time and I'll fail and I'll

fail and I'll fail and I'll eventually

I'll fail so many times I run out of

ways to fail and then I'll we'll call

that success." And you kind of you build

and build and you kind of go, well,

what's the next thing I'm going to do?

I'm very lucky because I have a job

which is it's a task without end. And

that's where I think happiness lies in

those tasks without end where you go,

right, I'm going to spend my time trying

to be a better comic. You I'm going to

try and write in a different style. I'm

going to try and be I'm going to try and

be a goat. I'm going to try and be on

the Mount Rushmore of comedy. Now, I

know that probably won't happen, but

I've got a [ __ ] lottery ticket and

I'm allowed to try and do it. And that

feels like an incredibly that feels like

a life's journey.

I don't know if that did that answer the

question. I don't know if it did.

Perfect. Yeah.

But then the the the question was about

No, you did because you reframed

beyond

you reframed my point which was um about

knowing you're enough. You reframed it

to gratitude and when and gratitude and

ambition can coexist.

Yes. But it's a tricky one though, isn't

it? Because sometimes you feel like am I

being ungrateful by wanting to more?

Yeah. And also and how much of a kind of

you kind of go gez I've already got a

lot of stuff. Do I need any more stuff?

Do I need any more? But it's I guess

it's not about

things or people. It's about how we

spend our days ultimately. So it's not

about like there isn't a god. No one's

keeping score. There's no one from above

who's going to go at the end of your

life. Okay, let's take a look at the

stats. And in my head, I kind of wish

there was someone going you did that

many. So what's happiness? I've got a

couple of theories on happiness. I think

flow states are where happiness lives.

What's a flow state? So I know

if you get into a state where you lose

track of time that's a pretty good

indicator. A lot of people get it with

uh sports. Okay. So you you're doing

something that you so enjoy. You're so

engaged in this activity you forget even

where you are. You might get it playing

video games. I get it on stage where I'm

just in this moment and I enjoy it. I'm

totally engaged and I'm I'm in the flow.

You see musicians kind of embody it on

stage.

Spend as much time in a flow state as

you can in life. If that can become your

job, then tremendous. That is that's

success.

Everything else is who cares. But that

thing is like that's amazing. So what's

your flow state? What's the state?

What's the thing you do where you go

this is this is my [ __ ] I mean what is

it

for me?

Yeah. Ah, a lot of things come to mind.

One of them is um I've got this show

that's touring at the moment. It's in

the London Pladium in in February. Um

and I was as you were saying that I was

imagining sitting in the chair on stage

with with my choir and it that feels

like my flow state feels like I'm just

on my own just floating.

You'll try and hold on to that moment.

Yeah.

You'll try and it's like quicks because

it's like the time will just float by

and you know you'll be there and there's

kind of a high before the high even

thinking about it. M but that thing of

going that's next February

that won't do you're going to need that

once a week you're going to need that

once a day like more of that like

leaning into that edge of going that's

if that's where I'm happy

that's where you should be

this is lovely actually I think

I think kind of there's it's a I think

the reason sort of panel shows are so

popular on TV is because this is missing

from our culture like this is how we

should end every day

the reason podcasts are blowing up is

because people desperately want to be in

a conversation and there's something

very intimate about podcasts. There's

something about the long form and

listening that's really

when you don't do them on Zoom.

Yeah. You can't do them on Zoom. There's

no eye contact. My other theory on

happiness is it's expectations exceeded.

Oh yeah.

Because listen, what birthdays are [ __ ]

right? New Year's Eve is [ __ ] waste

of time. Amateur drinkers. I've never

had a good New Year's Eve.

New Year's Eve is [ __ ] all. And why?

Because the expectation is this is going

to be the best night ever. We're It's

going to be huge. Everyone's going to be

there. Even if everyone is there, and it

is a really good night, you go, "Yeah,

but I thought it was going to be amazing

and it was just really good."

And then sometimes on a [ __ ] Tuesday,

someone goes, "I just went I bumped into

the guy and then we went to a thing and

then we ended up at a had a [ __ ]

great time." It's the It's that thing of

like tricking yourself into kind of just

lower your expectations. Maybe a little

bit less time looking at what everyone

else is doing on holiday on Instagram is

pretty healthy

and looking around trying enjoying the

little simple pleasures and oh we

ordered in and the food was [ __ ]

amazing and it arrived hot great.

Does that link to your point about

comparison being the thief of joy? Of

course. Yeah. Compare and despair.

Everyone's having a better time. All

check Instagram now. We're going to feel

like dummies for sitting here having a

really interesting conversation. Oh

[ __ ] We should be [ __ ] water skiing

in the Amazon. Ah, we're dummies. But

it's being where you're at, right? So

it's

and that's raising our expectations of

how our lives should be going. When I

see Timmy doing his jet skiing and

but it's it's oh the places you won't

go. Oh, the things you won't do to be

where you are. There's a million people

you're not because you you did this and

you didn't do that. Now, you could have

gone down another road. Maybe you could

have been a great sportsman. Maybe you

could have been a great academic, but

you didn't go down that road. You went

down this road. And enjoying that and

being where you're at is kind of it's

kind of important. you know, once you

commit to something, it's like,

you know, you it's fine, but you can't

like all these different I think it's

it's overwhelming at the moment what's

going on in in social media.

Um, because it just feels like you're

constantly bombarded by options and easy

lives.

You know, the latest kind of iteration

of the fame heaven myth is reality

stars. So the there's a big difference

between again another conflation but

being a celebrity and being famous.

I'm famous but I'm not a celebrity. I'm

famous for something that I do but a

celebrity is just themselves the queen

or a Kardashian. They're just themselves

and the money rolls in and it's

tremendous. It's just it's a [ __ ]

lottery win.

hard work very pivotal to your um you

getting here today by the sands of it

especially in those early years as a

comedian after leaving Shell.

What role does hard work play in our

society? Um it's right in in becoming a

successful individual at whatever

pursuit or whatever passion you're

pursuing. There's a there's probably a

counternarrative that I think has

emerged in our country maybe because of

social media has allowed people to kind

of converge behind that and relinquish

responsibility of their situations by

calling hard referring to hard work as

being a really really sort of toxic

thing and I' I felt that more recently.

I didn't see it when I was younger.

I mean let's let's you know what let's

have a you gambling man. Uh

not it depends. I mean in life not in

the casino but yeah let's let's put a

bet on that. Let's see how that works

out for them.

I just don't think that's going to bring

him happiness.

Which part?

The hard work is toxic. Okay. Okay.

Don't do Don't do hard work then. Good

luck, dummy. It's just not going to work

for you. That's not going to pay out

because what's the metric of our

society? It's results, right? And I

don't care how there's two great myths

in our society, right? There's one myth

is talent and ideas, and there's another

myth which is hard work. They're both

[ __ ] Total [ __ ] [ __ ] because

the the ideas are cheaper than table

salt, right? There's there's everyone's

got ideas. I've got an idea for an app.

It's the Uber for fill in the thing

here. Yeah. Great. Sure. Sure. It's

every idea is about implementation.

Every um sports is a good analogy,

right? So, Michael Jordan, greatest of

all time, right? There's no debate. He's

the greatest. How much did he work?

[ __ ] more than anyone else. How much

natural talent did he have? More than

anyone else. What if he hadn't worked?

You never heard of him. He never would

have made the team, let alone been the

greatest, but wouldn't have even made

the team if he hadn't trained. It's a

good analogy for life of going, "Look,

whatever talent you have, if you don't

do the work as well, it's it's it's just

a waste of potential." So, I think it's

it's the absolute fundamental. Now, hard

work and drudgery are not the same

thing, right? Like there's a there's a

working smart and working hard and

there's a difference between the two.

Like if you're if you're working at

something and it's like hard work alone

won't do anything. You know, it's about

what stream you're in. And I suppose the

extreme example would be if you're

collecting um

you know recyclable metals on a FLLA

dump in South America. Work as hard as

you want. Nothing's ever g you're never

going to get to that level. So you you

work hard if you must and you work smart

if you can. If you can't, you know, if

anyone listening to this is already in a

privileged position in that, you know,

odds are western world doing okay, have

a digital phone. That's you're doing

better than a third of the world before

you even start. You know, most people

don't have running water. You know, most

people don't have a flushing toilet. The

world's in a [ __ ] terrifying state.

So, it's that thing of going, well, work

as smart as you can. Work at the thing