you'd wake up just with those first

thoughts of the day would just oh God

I did have a

fear that I was gonna

[Music]

be one of the most recognizable

broadcasters she's become synonymous

with the Olympics football and rugby

I was very male dominated environment

and there certainly were people who

exhibited kind of machismo and there

were times where I felt like I was

trying to conform but it didn't make me

feel very good I wasn't happy

my dad was an assistant manager of

Bradford City when the fire there took

56 lives and we were all there at the

game that day

all day of my life really because there

is a before and there's an after and

that day is that day that really defined

not so many things for me can you still

remember that you get a phone call from

your mother about your brother it's a

day that I have relived so many times in

my mind I can't express how shocking

that is because he was fine you know in

my mind immediately created a narrative

that he had been run over or he had been

in a car accident and then very quickly

my mum started to tell me actually what

had happened

before this episode begins I just want

to say a huge thank you to all of our

new subscribers 74 of you that watch

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we're now down to about 71 so that helps

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further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this

is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's

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keep this yourself

[Music]

foreign

[Music]

to understand you and to understand the

trajectory of your life and how you've

ended up to be where you are today and

the passions you pursued the person you

became what do I need to understand

about your earliest context

I hope I've gone into that in my book

and I've tried to understand that myself

and one of the biggest compliments

somebody has paid me who's read the book

is somebody I work with really closely

and she just said to me I get so much

about you from some of the stories

you've told as as a child even and we

can all point to Big incidents that

happen in life but actually sometimes

it's just the small things that create

in your mind and urgency or they create

a desire or a passion that you know um

still Burns inside you and you wonder

where it came from

um so I think you probably would need to

understand a bit about the parenting

that I received and the context of our

family life and where when we moved

around and how our lives were predicated

by my dad's job and what he did and the

background that he had as well he was a

professional football player he was a

professional football player so that

means potentially moving house moving

City at the drop of a hat this was in

the 70s and 80s the days where you could

be transferred midweek you know it

wasn't the transfer window that we have

now so he would often upsticks and move

on and then a few months later we'd

follow what does that what does that do

to a child never really asked somebody

that question before when you're

constantly moving around as a kid is

there in hindsight any sort of character

change or psychological impact of for

better off or For Worse I think it has

uh there's a double-edged sword to it my

mum and it depends I guess on the other

person in the relationship my mum has

always been a very positive person so

she looked at these things for us as

Adventures you know she would say to me

and my siblings I'm going to move to

this place and it's going to be very

exciting and you've got to go to a new

school and it's a chance to meet new

people and so her sense of adventure

gave us a confidence and a sense that

you know it was going to be okay so that

was great but then what I realized

writing the book was that it probably

made me a bit flighty when it came to

friends when I was younger and I look

back at I was writing about a really

close friend I had when I was 13. I've

got no idea where she is now and I think

because the next time I had to move on

somewhere and at that point I was

actually staying within Leeds but I

probably was moving schools I'd got used

to going bye-bye and kind of moving on

to the next place so I was probably

experiencing a bit of self-preservation

you know not wanting to get too close

because we might be off soon so we'll

have a good time for now

were you a confident person when you

were you know let's say before your 18th

birthday would you describe yourself as

a confident person self-esteem and yeah

I would I think that is something that

as well that my husband and I talk about

this a lot the the greatest gift you can

give children is self-esteem I think and

he left school without self-esteem

because he was dyslexic and left without

any qualifications and it is his big

passion that kids should always have the

star within them found before they leave

school whatever that is you know

somebody needs to tell you you are good

at something before you're on your way

and um I I feel like I was incredibly

lucky because I left school with really

good self-esteem and I had a childhood

that was that gave me good self-esteem

you know and I believed that I could

achieve things and I could I could get

on in life and I think a lot of that was

my mum's positivity certainly but also

my dad's example of really hard work and

seeing him really graft and really

believe that you know what you put in

you got out and I think that's really

rewarding you know that is really that

makes you feel so good when you work

hard and that's the example that he he

said to us and I think that all creates

a confidence because and when I say

confidence is not misplaced in the sense

that you think everything you do is

going to be brilliant because you really

need to know that you're going to fail

at things obviously and that things are

going to go wrong and I could see that

with with both of them but I think a

belief that if it does go wrong it's

okay because you can move on so I feel

one of the biggest blessings I had as a

child was leaving school with confidence

thinking then about you saying your dad

it's still hard work

um kind of into by example I guess

because he was clearly someone that was

incredibly focused and

um focused on his career

it made me made me think about how we

often

don't get to learn how to take care of

ourselves from our parents in terms of

we learn how to to work hard and strive

but the sort of counterbalance to that

would be learning how to slow down and

learning how to

um make sure you're okay and I think

specifically when I talk to people when

you know on this show when they talk

about their fathers and their and the

generations that I've come before

there's often little understanding of

mental health or

um burnout or balance or all of these

kinds of things did you did you see the

symptoms of

that in your father did you see a lack

of sort of self-preservation or

self-care absolutely

um he

he came from a generation of men he came

from a well first let's go back he came

from a really tough working class estate

in Cardiff he was 15 years old when he

was plucked out of that and given an

opportunity to go to Leeds United and be

a footballer 15 years old he'd left his

home and he was living in digs with a

with a family who kind of put

footballers up and he was you know that

was a way out for him his dad had been a

Docker and he'd owned working Men's

Clubs and when I say owned he'd kind of

run a working man's club his mum had

four or five different jobs she was

doing night shift cleaning and he had

siblings who left school without

qualifications and did working class

Blue Collar jobs and so this was a big

opportunity and this wasn't the day

these weren't the days when the Premier

League was in existence but this was

still a you know a glamorous route

potentially and also a financially

secure as secure as she can be being a

sports person way out of the life that

he had and so that was an enormous

responsibility I think for him and he

this was a very a renowned hard odd kind

of team lead United was this team that

you know these players would renounced

being very hard on the pitch they were

you know kind of very brutal the way the

style of play and he's in that

environment as this little boy you know

I look at my son now who's 17 and I

think about what he would have been like

at 15 moving a few hundred miles away

from home and so already you're in you

know at that age you're having to build

up defenses and then he was you know

totally wasn't good enough and you know

had to keep working harder and and

eventually played there for 10 years and

was an international Captain for his

country so he did achieve incredible

things in his career but never stopped

you know it was relentless being a

footballer is Relentless being a sports

person is Relentless you're never going

to achieve Perfection you're always

looking for it so how do you feel

satisfied you know when do you actually

sit down and go that was really good and

I suppose there was a sense of him

always wanting you know keep going keep

going and then when you turn to

management which he did straight away

without a break and then he went through

he huge huge tragedy he was the

assistant manager of Bradford City when

the fire there took 56 lives and we were

all there at the game that day and he

went to almost every funeral in the

space of six weeks after that you know

he did all of this and never sat down

with anybody and took stock or had a

counselor or took a break from you know

from that relentlessness and so I think

I understand him a lot better now

through looking at his life through that

prism almost of seeing that and you

understand you know I talk in the book

about him drinking too much and using

that to self-medicate through his life

and to the point where it became you

know it's been a problem and he's been

hospitalized but of course now if he was

that Sports person now they'll be a

sports psychologist at the club you know

there'd be somebody saying let's have a

chat let's talk about what's what's

going on why you're feeling these these

levels of anxiety so

um it's it's definitely something that

I'm much better at and um but I think

that's also a product of the age that we

live in that we're all so much more

aware of the need to stop and the need

to process

when you when you look at his life

you've described a few of them there but

what what in hindsight now what are the

needs that you think were unmet in his

life and I asked that question because

I'm

I'm wondering how one avoids such an

outcome you talked about the importance

of connection not going home to a bunch

of strangers being closer to your family

are there any needs that you think went

unmet that you are making sure that your

son's life and your life are um full of

he was very my dad was always a very

emotional person so I don't feel like he

kept his emotions locked up you know he

would in front of us he was he would cry

you know he would watch something on TV

um a usually sport that would make him

teary so it wasn't as if he was this

hard person who didn't tell you he loved

you he told us he loved us but I feel

like as a professional in his job I feel

like it was it was probably very hard

for him to show any weakness outside of

the home and show any and when I say

weakness such a pejorative term because

actually it's not a weakness to say I

think I could be better if I just had

this bit of time here or I could speak

to somebody or I could you know

communicate better about how I'm feeling

about this and we are talking about a

very different era and um when it was

that it's not manly you know it's not

it's not manly to behave in that way and

we just wouldn't hear those terms now

even though some people still Harbor

those feelings perhaps they wouldn't say

that in public so I think if he had had

and he did have the opportunity when my

brother died and after Bradford to talk

to people but he resisted that you know

he didn't want to sit down and speak to

a counselor and I think that was

probably because of the historic kind of

experiences that he'd had you know it

just wasn't something that he felt

talking to people outside of the home he

was not comfortable it's that easy to to

teach to your kids that idea of sort of

expressing yourself and

turning to others for support

emotionally is it is it something that

you think about when you when you're

raising your children yeah we talk about

specifically we talk about it a lot and

we hope we lead by example as parents

but I'm more mindful of it with my son

because of the male kind of resistance

almost to to have that um open dialogue

but he is a very much a kind of he let's

wears his heartlessly likes to tell you

stuff and I think that's probably

because his dad is very much like that

so he sees his father being like that

and feels confident that he can he can

do that and I think once you do that as

a child and you realize the reception is

good and you're not going to be judged

or anybody think any less of you you're

more likely to come back and and do it

again so I think it is a lot about the

home and you know having the example of

somebody doing that in front of you is

really powerful and you're never with

your kids it's never a finished job

where you feel like oh yeah he's

somebody but I really do feel like he

knows he can talk to us about anything

and you can talk to other people and he

does you know bring his anxieties and

troubles home I think the key thing I'm

I find as a parent that you have to

remember especially when they kind of

turn 13 that age sometimes those things

to you seem quite trivial and you think

why are you bothering about that and

then you've got to remember what it's

like to be 13 and 14 and how huge those

things are and how big they were for you

and not just go that really doesn't

matter you know and actually it's really

important that you don't minimalize

their issues and their problems it's

okay for you because you've been through

so many different things and you know

it's going to be all right but they

don't know that right now so it's

important I think to to just always try

and take yourself back to that teenager

you've been through so many things and

many of those things I mean so many of

those things are in this book the first

half one of the most uh heart-wrenching

stories you tell us when you were 19

years old and you get a phone call from

your mother about your brother

Daniel

can you still remember that day clearly

oh absolutely and when I wrote that

chapter which turned out to be the first

chapter in the book because it was I

wrote it because I wanted to practice

writing to get myself into the rhythm of

writing the book not knowing where that

chapter would be and when I wrote it I

realized it had to be the start of the

book because it was the seminal day of

my life really because there is a before

and there's an after and that day is

that day that really defined so many

things for me and when I sat down to

write I took myself kind of right back

into that day I could I could almost

smell the air you know because it was a

bank holiday Monday I was living in a

small flat in earlsfield in London and

everybody's windows were open because it

was a lovely day and people were

barbecuing in their little Gardens and I

could smell the coals and I could feel

the the air coming through the windows

almost and I was just taken right back

into that moment the light everything

that came through the window when I sat

on the bed I can see the duvet cover I

can you know I really was it was very

visceral when I when I was there uh

writing

um probably because it's a day that I

have relived so many times in my mind

your mum calls you and says from what I

read in the book she's very to the point

about what's happened she says Daniel is

dead

she

called me and the phone rang and I sat

on the bed and said hello in the kind of

you know normal cheery way and she said

Daniel's dead and that was you know I

can't express how shocking that is

because you he was fine you know so

there was nothing wrong with Daniel he

wasn't ill he'd never been ill you know

he'd never had anything wrong with him

so it was so just mind-blowing to hear

you know I I my in my mind immediately

created a narrative that he had been run

over or he had been in a car accident I

decided quickly that he was in a car

because he was 16 nearly he was 15 going

on 16. maybe one of the older boys that

he knew had just passed his test maybe

he'd been taken and I had him driving

down this road that I knew in Leeds and

this is where it happened and and then

very quickly my mom started to tell me

actually what had happened that was not

what happened at all he'd he collapsed

in the garden he was playing football

um with my dad and my little brother and

my little brother was six sure Jordan

and he'd just gone over to get football

and he collapsed and died and that was

it that was like that was as much as my

mum knew at that point because by this

point she'd been to hospital and she had

um already kind of got home which sounds

really bizarre saying that in 2022

because now we would have been on the

phone the minute he collapsed you know

she would have rung me and said but they

didn't have mobile phones and or if they

had a mobile phone it was very you know

basic I don't even know if they had a

car phone and so the immediate thing was

to get him to hospital and to get an

ambulance and so to not include

everybody in that process so I was in

London she was in Leeds and then they

were at the hospital and then they came

home and it was hours later that I found

out which again seemed strange you know

that I I didn't know that this was all

happening I wasn't being given a

blow-by-blow account of of what was

happening so I all I had was at that

point her information which was very

scant that

something had happened to his heart his

heart just stopped and the Doctor Who

was at a e or the emergency section of

the hospital when they arrived happened

to be the Doctor Who give him birth to

me who to help my mum deliver me and he

was the old lead United doctor and

so he'd known the family for a very long

time it was a complete coincidence he

was doing a shift on a bank holiday and

he just walked out of theater an hour

after my brother had gone in and you

know shook his head and and it's that

kind of nightmare nightmare scenario for

any any family any parent that you know

they just didn't they believed he was

going into hospital because he got a

heat stroke or something and they you

know in their heads they created what it

was a hot day he must have been

dehydrated they did not expect that as

the outcome and my mum had phoned her

mum who lived in Leeds and and so a

couple of the family members were at the

hospital which was also strange you know

that they would be there and so it was a

a completely

just it sounded fanciful to me I

couldn't I couldn't get my head around

the idea that this very fit young man

would just collapse and I I want you

know I wanted to immediately wanted to

know kind of more but there was nothing

you know and that's a really frustrating

and and there was no internet to go and

go okay what how could how can a young

person die you know how does this happen

and we now know of course so much more

about um cardiac arrest and the young

and there's a you know

uh hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is what

he was diagnosed with and that means

basically the heart just stops without

warning and we've seen very famous

incidents in in football

um Christian Eriksen the Danish

footballer at the last Euros collapsed

on the pitch and his life was saved

because he was in the perfect place for

that to happen there was medical

resource around you know people knew

what they were doing and Daniel was in

the garden you know there was nothing

there so he was he was never going to

survive that but if you you know if you

he'd been somewhere where there was a

defibrillator or he was in a hospital

when it happened you know he may well

have survived but at the time obviously

we just couldn't get our heads around it

I read in the book that the neighbor

tried to resuscitate him so we had a

neighbor who was a he'd worked on oil

rigs offshore and he had paramedic

qualifications he wasn't actually a

paramedic but he'd done some quality so

my mum thought oh Morris next door he'll

know what to do and my mom was when she

was telling me like later and then you

years later when we discussed it she was

she said she was so relaxed about it

because

because he wasn't to her he wasn't dead

he just collapsed and you know nobody

could think of him as being an unfit

person so she wasn't relaxed and said

she wasn't urgent but she just thought

Morris will sort this out you know

Morris came around and he couldn't get

him back he couldn't get his heart going

and but they still didn't use the word I

don't think they said his heart stopped

because nobody wants to say that to her

parent so Morris obviously put him in

the in the ambulance I think knowing

that his heart stopped but my parents

didn't know his heart stopped they

thought he was collapsed or he was in

some kind of like you know heat induced

coma or something had happened to him

that that meant he just wasn't

responsive I think that was they thought

he wasn't responsive as opposed to he

was actually dead and then my dad said

that my dad went with him in the

ambulance and my dad said at one point

the ambulance went round and bend really

quickly and his arm flew out and landed

in my dad's lap and my dad said that

when the arm when his arm landed that's

when he knew he was dead because he said

he just felt that there was no life

there was nothing that showed any

response and

so his his Hope was

crushed

you you look at your life as before and

after that moment

what was life like after that moment

the immediate aftermath like the weeks

after something

that is is a strange mix of

um activity and energy you know because

you're

organizing funerals people are kind of

coming hundreds of people descending on

the house constantly people coming and

and actually there was a kind of

um an energy in the house that it just

kept you you just kept going and doing

things my mom didn't she very much

stopped and she went into almost a kind

of after the funeral she was almost

catatonic and just kind of almost sat

and did nothing for about a month but I

think I was the eldest child my sister

at the time was modeling in Japan she'd

flown home for the funeral but then went

off quite quickly afterwards my Dad

decided to go on tour with Wales who was

managing so I decided my life in London

was over and I was going to stay home

and try and help and my mum had a

fledgling property business so I was

kind of running around doing errands for

her and trying to kind of like keep this

energy going that we'd experienced

during the week leading up to the

funeral and then suddenly it all starts

to quieten down and people stopped

coming round people stopped bringing

food around people stopped ringing to

see if you're okay and and then this

kind of quietness descends on on the

house and the home and the and everybody

in it and and that's when you really

start facing grief because grief

um I didn't have room to come in you

know in those first few weeks there was

no there was no space for it it was all

about energy and activity and trying to

do your best for everybody and then the

reality you know just on a daily basis

of

kind of I mean every day even when the

energy was there you'd wake up just with

those first thoughts of the day would

just oh God

you know it really is it's happened it's

real it's not it's not a dream and

getting yourself mobilized but then

after the energy left those oh God this

is real those feelings have just despair

and kind of sadness

it just took longer to get yourself

going and you know you do feel kind of

just sometimes or you did feel

immobilized with that sadness and

um as a family it just kind of pushes

everybody off into kind of different

Corners if you like it you know it's

like a sledgehammer coming down and just

shattering something that had been a

very tight unit so

um

it then takes a long long time I think

for things to get back to any kind of

normalcy or what you can now call your

new normal

are there certain days or certain

memories of when things were

hardest for the family do you have like

um I was speaking here yesterday to um

Whitney from who's the founding CEO of

Bumble and she went through her own

version of grief sort of more it's a

Professional Grief that she she refers

to and she says there's kind there was

kind of a day there was a day when I

remember it being the hardest day in

that period and that that represented

the bottom and from there on it was the

kind of sort of the climb out of that

moment did was there a bottom moment for

you was there a day where you think that

was the hardest day of all

I don't remember there being one day in

particular because even years afterwards

you know a few years afterwards I could

find myself

sobbing you know over something that had

seen or I'd read or when I started

working in Telly I remember I used to be

obsessed when I started working in

football with the dates of players

births because they would be his age and

I knew that he might be playing in that

match or he could have you know and so

there would be something that would just

kind of throw me or I wouldn't I wasn't

necessarily looking for it but then it

would just occur to me that they were

the same age and you do that thing where

you wonder well first of all would he be

playing in this match what kind of play

would he have been I wonder if he'd have

had a girlfriend by now I wonder if he'd

have met somebody he wanted to marry oh

now I wonder if he'd have children you

know and you do that through the life of

the person that you know

is no longer with you because you want

to keep their you know kind of their

memory life but also I think

um you wonder then if everything would

have been different in the family

because ultimately my parents divorced

and my dad

was using alcohol to you know to

medicate himself and you know it's a lot

to put on Daniel's shoulders but you

think would if he hadn't died would

would we all still be together would

this you know with the family unit have

survived and so there are those days you

know where just years later you could be

flawed so I don't think there was one

day but what happens is you start to

notice oh a few weeks have gone by now

and life's been quite good and I've been

able to find joy in things and

um I've done something and not thought

but would it have been better if Daniel

had been here and you go through all

those anniversaries you know so the

first year of the first Christmas the

first birthdays all of those things

that's that's the you know getting

through those anniversaries is always

tough for anybody who loses any anybody

of significance in their lives

um but with him it was things like the

16th birthday the 18th birthday the 20

you know there's all these big kind of

landmark occasions and and then you have

your own children and you start to look

at his life differently because when he

when my son got to 15 it was nearly 16

my kid's birthday is only a few days

away from his birthday I realized when

my son turned 16.

I realized that I'd been worried about

him not being 16.

because

because Daniel never got there so I you

know I did

I did have a fear that I was going to

repeat history

we never we never taught how to grieve

nobody ever teaches us that and I and

it's

is

it's a shame because it going through

your life and not experiencing grief in

some form is

would be

it's almost impossible to do that and I

think sometimes I I worry about grief

because you haven't had enough because I

haven't had enough

and I also have this sort of impending

feeling that it's coming but

when you look back at that moment

um post Daniel's passing

what do you think what advice would you

give to someone on how to properly

grieve

um in hindsight with your wisdom now

about that situation and how it

transpired and how it stayed with you is

there anything you can say about how how

one Grieves properly it's such a

personal thing grief isn't it because it

depends on your relation your own

relationship with death you know what

what you feel about mortality how you

feel about that person obviously is

hugely significant also what they did in

their life you know I find myself I've

had lots of relatives I think four

who've lived to be a hundred four or

five so I've been to funerals of people

at 105 and that was a joyous life you

know and that was a great celebration so

I think it always depends on all those

factors those relationships I think the

one thing that I would say from our

experience with Daniel which was a life

cut very short and very sudden I think

it's and it doesn't matter if it isn't

sudden and I've wrestled with that as

well we all did about Daniel like would

it have been better if we'd known what

if he'd been ill and we had time to to

get our heads around it would have made

any difference and there's no right or

wrong way you know to lose a child there

is no easy way to lose a child but I

think counseling and talking to people

is really really helpful for me I found

having somebody to process what was

going on was really helpful and finding

Kindred Spirits as well you know people

who've been through similar experiences

and you find them

without wanting to sound kind of too

kind of woo-woo spiritual but I think

those people come come into your life as

well at the time that you need them and

then you've you've got to be open to

them being there but when I met my

husband that was something we

immediately connected on because he lost

a cousin who was like a brother to him

who was um he was in his 30s but had two

small children and my my husband was

only 19 when that happened and

um that you know that was a tragic

accident and again a sudden death and

that devastated his his young world and

I think if you

have people in your world who you know

you can talk to like that I think it's

really really helpful

I was when you were talking about the

week after Daniel's passing and the

energy in the house and how it almost

hadn't set in because you had this

almost distraction there was things to

do there was other things to keep the

brain on so many of us I mean we

distract ourselves after moments of

trauma and grief in a number of

different ways but distraction

um doesn't solve the problem does it

just kind of kicks the can down the road

yeah and I think although

um I did

experience after that immediate kind of

Rush of energy there was a silence for

you know time for sadness to come in I

did default back into that kind of

frenetic energy when I went to

University which was only a few months

later I became the queen of joining in

you know so I would join every club that

I could I was in the drama Society the

Union society I would you know can I

join this netball team can I do this can

I do that can I've got my degree I'm

going to get a job you know I was

working at weekends I I filled every

hour and I love being busy but there was

definitely a sense of running away from

from what was going on I think in the

background of my life

on top of that sort of you know

workaholism

um

how did Daniel's passing change your

perspective of Life generally and you

know one I'll be honest when I read

um about the passing of Daniel there was

this real moment of pause when I was

reading there alone there was this

moment of pause at the prospect that he

was

half my age and he suddenly his suddenly

his heart stopped and it made me think

honestly when I was really my brain went

so anyone's heart can stop at any time

they can be perfectly healthy they can

be an athlete and their heart can just

stop at any time and you sit there like

feeling my own heart and I'm wearing

this band though where I've been wearing

for the last couple of weeks checking

your heartbeat she tells me everything

about my heart and this morning it's

funny because it said my heart my H my

heart variability scores like way way

down typically means you've been doing

something stressful or exerting yourself

too much and I as I saw it was like

there was like a five minute difference

between This Heart warning that's

flashing on my band and reading that in

the book yeah how did how did the

fragility of life

um

and your experience of the fragility of

life change your perspective on life

itself

I think two things one and it took me a

while to correct this I In My Head

Thought although I was busy getting you

know getting busy and doing things and

doing my degree and everything else

there was part of me that thought okay

now terrible things can happen at any

time so my so tomorrow another terrible

thing could happen and I was almost

waiting for that next thing because if

if he can die and he's that healthy

looking and he'd never complained about

any chest pains he was an athlete like a

proper athlete you know he just he could

run and run and run if he can die like

that well terrible things can happen all

the time but I didn't Express this but

it was my kind of there was a feeling

inside me that that was possible so so

there was that that part of the kind of

the process you know was going on inside

me even though I was busy I was

expecting a terrible thing and I had

this therapist a few years later who she

just looked at me one day and she

because I was obviously manifesting this

or talking about it again and she said

your things happened

and now then she and um that was such a

power thing to say because although

another thing can happen of course

you know it just it stopped me it kind

of really stopped me in my tracks and I

thought I've got to reframe this and

stop thinking or stop believing that

something else is coming down the tracks

that I'm gonna have to deal with and I'm

not a natural Warrior so to be in that

kind of state so it wasn't worry you

know it wasn't me sitting there thinking

oh I'm not gonna cross the road because

the car's gonna come it wasn't about

taking risks it was just a self-defense

mechanism ready for it I'm ready for it

something's gonna happen and I'm I'm

ready I can see you know and so it

wasn't I wanted to stop my life so I

didn't I didn't get hurt or you know

people I loved didn't get hurt but I

wanted to be ready next time because I

wasn't ready the last time what's this

what are the symptoms of that of kind of

expecting a terrible thing to happen

yeah what are the symptoms so not not

not hanging at the time I was single and

I was definitely not attracting the

right people into my life you know and I

was I was not going out with people who

were enhancing me as a person or my life

because why would I want to have any

kind of long-term commitment with

anybody who'd treat me well or be nice

to me because I was you know I wasn't

going to commit to something so I may as

well be with somebody who wasn't that

nice to me who didn't make me feel good

about myself because because it was all

it was all very you know transient so

um I wasn't I wasn't giving

um I wasn't giving myself any kind of

chance of of that happening because of

my kind of charging through you know and

um and actually okay if you're horrible

to me that's fine I've dealt with this I

can you know but that's not really good

for your kind of deep self-esteem you

know we talk about earlier you talked

about how I had good self-esteem leaving

leaving school and feeling good about

myself

um but that wasn't that wasn't very

um productive in terms of you know good

self-esteem so I suppose that's that's

how it kind of manifested itself and

again there's that commitment thing to

to you know to people and things and

I suppose a feeling that um I was losing

empathy and that's really important

thing to to hang on to and

um and while I wouldn't have expressed

it as losing empathy at the time it was

losing patience you know kind of oh

that's that's so trivial but it's not

trivial to that person and having an

understanding of that is really

important and actually using what you've

learned about loss and grief in a more

positive way and not such a destructive

way

age 19 Metro FM that's your sort of

first step into uh

broadcasting yeah very few people in

this in this world will ever reach the

heights that you've reached in

broadcasting but so many of them would

want to I've met many many young people

that want to to get to where you are in

your career

um there's not a lot of seats at the

table at the very top

um so I'm trying to understand in

hindsight how you got to that table

and I know nobody ever likes asking me

answering these questions because at

some point you're gonna have to

compliment yourself to some degree

you're gonna have to highlight something

that's a good characteristic in yourself

and people don't people feel

uncomfortable with but with doing that

for some reason but

um because we're not American yeah yeah

oh my God Americans if I ask them that

question not only do they they tell me

but they the story sounds amazing it's

so like chance and they're a hero in the

story

everyone else British people they're

like well you know ask someone else yeah

well how often do you say the word I was

very lucky because I was very lucky and

we shrouded in this this luck you know

luck happened to us and and there is

always an element of timing with things

isn't there and I I got my break at

Metro through meeting a guy at a New

Year's Eve party the the winter before I

went to University and I said to him I

really want to work in broadcasting and

he ran a radio station and he said when

you come to Durham which was nine months

later make sure you come and see me and

I'll give you some work experience and

I'd already done work experience on

radio stations and newspapers so so I

thought of that so I waited about 10

minutes after arriving in Durham and I

went to a phone box because we didn't

have mobiles and filled it with my

Temperance pieces and had to wait for

the receptionist to put me through and I

remember standing in the rain in Durham

kind of waiting for him and he said oh

hello because he was quite surprised

first of all I was calling before

freshers week it even started but

secondly he was probably going hang on a

minute where did I meet you what and he

said okay come and see me you know next

week or the week after and we'll have a

chat about what it is you want to do and

that was it that was my kind of the

person I could just cling on to and get

into somewhere that was a professional

outfit wasn't student radio this was a

commercial radio station with real

people living real lives you know and

and with mortgages so their work was

important and

um I got there and he he gave me a

chance he trained me up for about four

or five months and then by the Christmas

of my first term I got my first paid

shift on the radio station and that was

the start

eventually you've got the breakfast show

right when I graduated when you

graduated soon you must have been at

Metro for what three to four years by

the time so I was three years yeah three

years

even at that early stage in your

broadcasting career

what were you because we all know what

we're good at Often by like comparison

of peers this is like where comparisons

and can sometimes be quite helpful did

you have an indication of what you were

good at as a broadcaster versus your

peers what was your USP

um I wasn't necessarily comparing myself

to anybody else but what I felt I was

getting good at when I was doing the

breakfast show was being responsive and

being able to ad-lib situations and find

the funny or find the quirking because

on a breakfast show you know you're kind

of you're you're riffing backwards and

forwards with your co-host you're

responding to the day's news you're

talking about things that are going on

in people's lives and I realized that I

I could do that quite well without

feeling

self-conscious about what I was saying

you know I was I was able to to kind of

match my co-host quite well on those

things who's had a lot more experience

than me

um the other stuff there's a lot of

stuff that you can learn to be good at

you know you can learn to read the news

Well which I initially started out doing

the news and you can learn to um edit a

story because I was technically having

to do you know those kinds of things but

I think that was something that was a

little bit more ethereal and difficult

to nebulous and difficult to kind of you

know hone and train somebody to do so I

I felt like that was something that I

wanted to expand on and that was

something that I could

certainly take forwards as a quality you

know and it certainly is something that

is good in live broadcasting to be able

to think on your feet and be you know

able to turn a story into something else

and talk to somebody on the spot who's

just walked on to set you know all and

fill five minutes of time all those

things that live broadcasting needs you

know those qualities that it needs and

then eventually Sky call and you end up

going to work for Sky Sports yeah at 25

years old I was younger than that yeah

because that was a year after I joined

Metro which I would have been 22 so 23

so I was 23 when I joined Sky Sports so

my dream had been to work in London I

wanted to leave you know the Northeast

and find a job in London so when Sky

Sports saw me doing touchline interviews

at St James's park because by this point

I got a Saturday job because the boss at

the stage you could see I loved sport

and he was like why don't you do

touchline interviews at St James's park

for us um on a Saturday then Skye had

seen me on the touchline and decided

that they needed more women in front of

camera and asked me if I'd be interested

in going down for a screen test so I had

basically a month where my life just

turned because I had this sliding doors

moment where I made the call straight

away and as you've discovered with the

call to jars I wasn't shy of picking up

the phone and making the call I made the

call the next morning to the person I've

been told to phone and then within a

couple of days I was on a flight to

London to go and see the the boss at Sky

and do the screen test and then within a

few hours I think of getting home that

night I got a phone call

asking me if I'd go and work there and

negotiating a package to go and work

there so it was a really really exciting

kind of period of my life that I you

know hadn't really planned I didn't know

how I was going to get to London I was I

was looking for

um adverts in kind of uh broadcast and

various places you know trying to find

something that could get me there and I

rang up an agency a talent agency I

looked at people whose careers I liked

and thought Oh I wonder who they're

managed by I'll ring them and they were

very sweet and said oh well dude come

back to us when you've got some

experience because I had no experience I

had this little TV job in the Northeast

and I just didn't know how I was gonna

get there but I knew I had to for things

to progress

for anyone that's listening to this that

has big dreams of you know going into

certain industries especially Industries

where there's seems to be quite

um at the very top it seems to be quite

a small table when you look back at your

own journey and the decisions you made

the Small Things in hindsight the

moments of sort of serendipity

um what advice would you give to someone

who is trying to get somewhere High

we're at the very top of that tree is a

is quite a small table what are the

things that you did right maybe

accidentally or intentionally

I think what I did through University

and that could be could have been Post

University I worked so hard to I did

shifts that were very unsociable I was

doing three o'clock four o'clock in the

morning get UPS to go and do new shifts

and I did late night love shows I did

all the kind of things that you know are

the unglamorous end of that job because

I was being offered the shift and I took

them and I had to juggle that with my

law degree but I I innately felt that it

was almost like I was doing an

apprenticeship in what I wanted to do at

the same time and as well as earning me

you know some cash as a student is

always handy but I was getting this

experience and the hours and hours and

hours of doing that meant that when I

did get the opportunity at Sky and I I

was felt confident about picking the

phone up because I knew I'd had all

these hours I wasn't just somebody who'd

done a few shows and you know even if I

just had the one year working there at

post-grad I don't think I would have

felt as confident but I knew I'd put

those those hours in and I felt I wasn't

going to be

um I mean we've all got an element of

imposter syndrome but I didn't feel I

was going to be out of place because I

knew I'd had all that that experience

those hours so I think you've got to

you've got to put the groundwork in you

know and not expect things to happen too

quickly in the sense of you know don't

don't over Force those those things that

you'll feel the times right you know you

feel like okay I knew I was ready to

move on about around that time but in

that year of post working full-time it

wasn't towards the end until towards the

end that I really felt I was ready I

knew that all that stuff I was doing was

really important in building the the you

know the building blocks of your of your

career so I think it's really important

to to put those foundations down and

you'll always benefit from that you know

it's never a waste of time taking an

opportunity from somebody saying yes to

something I said yes to things I talk

about them in the book that I was

nowhere near in that year that I was

working in uh local radio I didn't know

how to do it but I said yes to stuff

because I knew it was going to give me

experience and and then obviously when

you find yourself somewhere like Sky

which is I was at the very much at the

bottom of the wrong you know the ladder

and I was learning again I was starting

to I knew a whole new set of experiences

then you have to have that um hopefully

I had a little bit of kind of humility

and such okay I need to learn I don't

know what I'm doing here and and then

people will you'll find people who will

be your teacher in that environment so I

think it's really important to I always

like say to my kids about you know it's

the expression your mum would have said

to you kind of like you know don't run

before you can walk right and um and it

sounds really boring because everybody

wants to run everybody wants to get

there quicker and and you can get there

quickly but you've just got to put some

hours in first and I think you'll stay

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quick one from our longest standing

sponsor hero I I can't tell you over the

last I'd say over the last really it's

been about two and a half years it was

really um post pandemic how much my

health has become such a huge priority

in my life and I have this laser laser

focused on what I'm putting into my body

it's funny because as you get older you

can start to feel the things you're

putting into your body more and more and

more

um and if I if I put something into my

body especially things like gluten if I

put those things in my body I feel them

tremendously the next day my energy

levels my sleep and everything in

between huel has been probably the most

important partner in my health Journey

because

I've been in the boardrooms I've been to

their offices

tens and tens and tens and tens of times

I've seen how they make their decisions

on nutrition and I trust it most of my

team that are in this room with me

consume it and get the benefits of it

too so if you haven't already tried your

do so

your next period of life was at Sky

um

which was as you write about it in the

book a very sort of male

dominated egotistical environment

how did that

shape you how did that impact you go

walking into Sky back in those days I

mean everybody in football was a man

right you say in the book I think you

say 90 of the like people behind the

camera were men

um it was a very male dominated

environment and it was obviously very

early in the infancy of sky sky was only

a few years old at that point the

Premier League was only a few years old

so a lot of Sky's early recruits if you

like were from Fleet Street the

hard-nosed journalists who kind of done

you know pounded the shifts and gone

kind of you know to all the matches over

the years and from and again a very

male-dominated environment but it was

tough and I've talked to a lot recently

to people about the 90s not to do in my

book but just about how it was there was

this thing happening in the 90s that you

you've kind of went along with a bit and

actually I don't really feel comfortable

with I'm not a ladder you know I'm not

there was this ladder culture and there

was a drinking culture and

um it was all about the music of the

time and everything else and I think

football was in this Center of all of

this as well because of the the newness

of sky and the newness of the Premier

League

um and it would have been easy I think

to to lose yourself in that and there

were times where I felt like I was

trying to conform and you know be the

person that you know was able to banter

with the lads and have that kind of you

know ripping and all of that but it

didn't make me feel very good you know I

didn't really like that person so

um I was I wasn't completely at ease

with myself I would say there you wrote

In the book that you didn't like

yourself very much during that period I

didn't like myself very much but I

always seem to forget that the next time

I was drinking the anger disappointment

and self-doubt that such destructive

Behavior brings was coming home to roost

yeah I think um I wasn't very healthy

I'd gone from being somebody who had run

half marathons when I was in Newcastle a

really brilliant diet to suddenly I was

doing late shifts eating badly drinking

more alcohol than I'd ever drunk when I

was at University you know I wasn't

massive Drinker and suddenly it was a

bar culture you know it was kind of

after a shift to go for a drink shifts

would finish at 10 you shouldn't start

drinking at 10. you know it's not a good

time of day to start drinking weekends I

knew nobody when I first arrived in in

London so it was

um you know what what's what's everybody

doing how do I get social life you know

where do I go what my you know so you'd

be invited somewhere that would involve

being in a bar or being involved in a

club and

um and so I yeah I was slipping into

kind of bad habits and um I think

there's part of me feeling like though

although this this is what it is to be

an adult you know is this how I you know

is this how I behave now

um and I was there was a good 18 months

really where I was putting on weight

didn't feel good about myself at all and

then that it becomes a self-filling

prophecy almost you know and you kind of

go oh well I've I'll put on weight now I

may as well just carry on eating the

Magnums I may as well carry on eating

the um you know drinking the Chardonnay

and

um I wasn't yeah I was I wasn't happy

you know I didn't enjoy that but um but

it just it kind of became a habit I

guess you know

in the talk about the 90s it's quite

hard for us for someone like myself to

imagine the culture

in an office and in a working

environment at that time when I was

reading some of the

um the quotes from the book about how

you would walk through the office and

someone would shout at you about who

which football player you've been

sleeping with or someone comes up to in

the office and makes a comment about

your ass until he tells you that it's

going to drop by the time you're 30.

those things seem quite Unthinkable in

the modern I know especially somebody of

your age and when I told my daughter

who's 17 she's just you know it defies

belief for her and yet when I speak to

people my age they reminisce almost

about I spoke to an actress the other

day who's same age as me and she was

talking about things that people would

say in auditions even and you know

um and I think it's

it's really positive that you think that

is so Unthinkable you know because that

means things have changed and I think

it's um amazing actually kind of that

for me it doesn't seem that long ago but

actually you know it's a few decades ago

and Society has changed our expectation

of each other has changed our

expectation of how we're to be treated

in the workplace has changed and that

comes through representation as as well

because those offices were very male

dominated and I think they were very

there were probably a lot of men in

there that weren't comfortable with that

but they didn't feel they could speak up

because of that culture that was there

and that's not healthy for any business

or any environment you know I always

quote um I made a documentary on women

in football and I remember Karen Brady

saying to me that who is the CEO of West

Ham and her saying to me I never invest

my own money in a company that doesn't

have a woman on the board this was about

14 years ago 13 years ago I made this

documentary and she said not because I

think that's gonna you know that I'm

trying to make a point but I know that

that board is going to be more

representative in terms of how it views

its business how it views its future and

its budgets and everything else that is

plans for the business so I always

remember that because when I look at

that office I think well how could this

how could that environment ever really

have different voices and different

opinions and because the big loud ones

the big loud kind of more misogynistic

ones were dominating everybody else and

and people didn't feel they could speak

up you know and didn't feel they could

they could talk and it didn't look like

Society it didn't look like a football

Terrace or it didn't look like um or how

we perceive a football Terrace to look

now which is people from different

ethnicities and people from different

backgrounds and different um sexual

orientation all those different things

that um that that office didn't

represent and that office was as I say

Not Unusual that would have been across

many Industries how things looked so I

think it's it's really important that we

have now more representation diversity

in everything that we do because of that

but um at the time that was really

normal

so you know that wasn't

um I didn't feel like I was in an

unusual place I didn't feel like oh I

wish I wish I went somewhere else where

it was a bit you know people were a bit

kinder your podcast is called midpoint

your book is called the first half

there's a theme going on yeah what why

um midpoint

came about uh as a lockdown project

something I've been intending to do for

ages and had the time and it felt like I

was in the middle of my life and it

happened while I was in a pandemic and

it felt very much like a time of

introspection and you know asking

yourself questions about what next what

does it mean to go through this period

where a lot of people start to

experience

um you know the midlife crisis a lot of

people refer to which you know obviously

in the sitcom that's where the bloke

gets you know some leather jeans and a

Harley-Davidson and runs off into the

sunset with somebody 25 years younger

than him or you know or um Shirley

Valentine flies off to Greece and finds

a lover you know so you get these kind

of very caricatured ideas of what

midlife is but for most people you know

they stay with their families and they

you know they work through something

that happens to them and what I

discovered with women is uh menopause I

didn't really know anything about it

going into lockdown and then I learned a

lot about it and then I was having one

and and that is a huge topic of

conversation that you know rightly has

grown and become something that people

are more aware of but also it's for me

it was more about the I started off

wanting to talk to people who'd done

something different in midlife so my

first guest was John Bishop who at 39

was selling pharmaceutical drugs and at

40 was a stand-up comedian which was a

massive career change and I like the

idea of doing something really different

in the middle of your life and not

feeling you have to keep going until the

end with the thing that you've gone on

you know the path to do and it's it's

obviously fanciful to say that anybody

can change their trajectory in midlife

because circumstances will dictate that

you have to keep paying your mortgage or

you have to keep you know food on the

table so it's not possible just to stop

and start something else but I do like

the idea that you can you can make a

change because we're all going to work

so much longer than our parents you know

had to or our grandparents had to just

the way society's going and you may as

well do something that you really love

and feel nourished by so midpoint came

about really because of all those kind

of things that I was thinking about it

was a self-serving project you know it

was like I want to talk to people are

doing interesting things

um and it's been really a joy to do you

know and to to kind of you know what

this environment's like it's a brilliant

way to have a conversation and you get

to talk about things that you find

interesting and then the person you're

talking to Sparks interest in you as

well so

um I'm about a six Series in so I'm

nowhere near as you know prolific as you

Stephen but obviously it's um it's a

kind of side hustle yeah well this side

is a side hustle in my bedroom so it's

crazy it's crazy um you know now we've

got these cameras which is mad yeah on

that point of the midlife crisis thing

is there any truth in that are there

regrets that show up in you know that

you've seen from your conversations in

midlife that that were maybe not as

obvious beforehand priorities change

values become clearer

there is definitely something in it in

in the midlife

um change you know I think the physical

changes that all women go through it

shouldn't underestimate kind of how that

can affect them and their families and

and that's why a greater understanding

of that is really important especially

you know women who've worked so hard in

their careers and they you know the

stories and the anecdotes you hear about

women just pulling themselves away from

it because of the physical effects of

menopause and I have a really

high-powered friend who's that one of

the top she's one of the top hedge

funders in the country sits on the board

of one of the biggest and she said to me

well I'm going on testosterone because

there's no way I'm working this hard and

letting a bloke come and take my job so

testosterone is one of the hormones that

depletes in in um uh midlife and women

so if you go on HRT you could take

progesterone estrogen and testosterone

but people don't realize women have

testosterone you know that they they

need it and I was laughing because she

was like as if I'm going to kind of give

up this but actually a lot of women do

give up that career because of the

feelings that they have of anxiety and

low self-esteem and you get brain fog

there's so many things physically that

happen to women at that time so I think

that has an impact obviously on on lives

but also

um and then what I realized when I

started looking into how many

relationships break up but not because

actually those two people don't love

each other anymore but because if the

woman's going through all of that and

the man's feeling kind of like she

doesn't love me anymore what's going on

you know and they the relationship

breaks down because of a lack of

understanding and communication but also

I think because you've done the same

thing a lot of people have done the same

thing for nearly 30 years you know if

they've been on a traditional career

trajectory and then they feel bored or

they need something to kind of you know

give them a kick and then there's the

mortality question as well because you

suddenly look at your parents and a lot

of people in that age the parents are

you know in their 70s or maybe 80s and

and looking like they're nearing the end

of their lives and that makes you

question you know the rest of your life

so there are so many issues that come up

and time to think as well because your

kids are getting to an age where they're

not the same kind of Demands on your

time through them so they're they're

flying you know they're doing their own

thing so you have time to think and

space to think so it is definitely it's

a thing that's why I think think why I'm

so intrigued by the topic is how do I

design my life now at 30 to try and

um limit the effects of that mid

midpoint

um

confusion or dissatisfaction that people

often experience and that you've kind of

accounted there one of the things that I

suspect is going to help is for me to

stay really in touch with the things

that I enjoy doing that I know

um in no way pay me or provide for me

professionally just like DJing and so

for your fulfillment yeah you know in

life is not just from the things that

earn you cash you know and I think the

older you get you realize how important

those other things are the Hobbies is

that you know if that is a hobby or if

it's

volunteering you know and I don't mean

that just kind of working in a you know

help the ages shop but giving your

talents to other people mentoring people

and we do a lot of Kenny and I do a lot

of stuff with various Charities that we

feel you know very passionate about or

um giving your time up to people I think

those things are really important

because as you become more financially

secure it is your time isn't it that's

the most valuable you know kind of thing

that you have and um and if you can give

your time to other people like that it's

it's very very rewarding and and then

you find you know kind of passion

projects as well that things that you've

felt in the past you haven't had time to

commit to and I want to know Kenny my

husband is really into being outside you

know he's he's loves making things and

I'm like building things and doing

things so he will literally be on a zoom

doing his business call and then you'll

realize he's got half an hour and he'll

go out and he'll be on his track to kind

of raking something and building

something and you know that for him is

how he is just loving his kind of

midlife balance you know but he couldn't

have done that 10 years ago when he was

first really building his business he

wouldn't have you know he just wouldn't

have worked so I think you you get to a

stage where you also give yourself that

time to do those things and allow

yourself you know and you'll be you know

you'll have so many other interests

business interests and things that have

along the way have you know kind of

given you great satisfaction so I'm not

worried about you having any kind of

mid-life uh crisis you said you

discovered you had you were going

through menopause

um at the age of 47 yeah I realized I

had perimenopausal symptoms because I

didn't really know what it was I just

felt this sense of like oh nothing feels

as exciting anymore nothing feels as

joyous I'm not getting the same

satisfaction out of stuff and and that

was so not me and then I did one of my

podcasts I was with Mariela frostrop and

she started talking about the menopause

she's a bit older than me and I was like

oh my God these things these things you

talk of I recognize them and afterwards

she recommended you know a go speak to

this doctor that she had seen and

um and sure enough I was bang in the

middle of you know what what was the

physical the physical manifestation

obviously of the menopauses eventually

you stop menstruating but before then

you have all these other things going on

low self-esteem anxiety brain fog you

know and this is all to do with your

hormones dropping off all the jobs that

these hormones did before they no longer

can do and that includes also your

immune system going down and you know

and this is in the middle of a pandemic

so at that point my immune system's low

I don't want my immune system to be you

know any weaker than anybody else's so

it was a good time to find out and uh

and I you know knowing that I could

rebalance my hormones as well and

um I was so relieved when I did take HRT

to feel myself again because I had been

feeling like I remember one day having

this absolute kind of family meeting

crisis meeting putting everybody to the

table saying right nobody around here is

pulling their way and really reading the

right act to everybody and I was and the

point where I got like I thought they're

not taking me seriously so I said if

this carries on I'm getting a flat in

Beaconsfield I know which is a little

town near where we live and they all

looked at me like I gone mad because

this has come from nowhere and of course

the kids were like close to tears and I

was like because I'm not going to be and

I realized now I look back and I was I

was just totally you know

sad about kind of how I was feeling and

I just didn't feel I was you know as I

didn't have as much fight and tenacity

and energy and you know and this was all

menopausal symptoms really um I mean now

with the hindsight and the distance

that's between it you know they laugh

about that whole day that was that was

the day where we realized mum was having

a menopause but thank God I found out

right and I didn't actually go and look

at renting a flat in beckinsfield to

serve them all right and you know it's a

real perfect Confluence when you have a

woman in her late 40s and her kids are

teenagers because their hormones are

going crazy in the other direction and

they're going through puberty and

everything's happening the other way you

know and so Kenny was very really wanted

to know what was going on with me so

he'd listen to my podcasts and he

learned so much about the menopause from

the female guest Davina McCall who's the

you know doing so much great work in

this space and she was talking about it

and he came in one day and he sat down

and he said to me I've just listened

I've been out in a dog walk and I've

just listened to Davina and he said okay

so if you start taking HRT and your

hormones kind of start going back again

you know and what happens to me are my

hormones dropping off a cliff how you

know am I gonna I said no no men are

different and and he kept going on about

it I said look just go and do a well-man

test or something because you need to

satisfy yourself that you're okay you

know and um it was through doing this

well-man test that he found out he had

prostate cancer so um his his kind of um

his motivation for doing it was to see

if his testosterone was still kind of

you know functioning at a high level and

they said to him listen don't worry

about your hormones they're fine you've

got to worry about your PSA to cut a

long story short he ended up having his

prostate removed and um had prostate

cancer so

um yeah we we in terms of a mid-life a

midlife journey in a midlife experience

there was a lot a lot going on there

obviously with regard to my my journey

kind of bled into him finding out

something that he otherwise wouldn't

have known because unfortunately

prostate cancer is a cancer that you

don't always get symptoms until it's too

late and as his urologist said to him if

you'd had symptoms we might be having a

very different conversation

wow hmm

so I'm I'm forever grateful that I

started my podcast I think because he

wouldn't have had we wouldn't have had

that conversation

it's a really scary thing to think about

in hindsight if those dots hadn't sort

of connected because like most blokes

this is the thing and he this is why he

did it he did a podcast episode talking

about it like most blokes and especially

one he played International Rugby right

you know he played 70 times for his

country he was used to giving his body a

battering and giving his body putting

his body through it and so he's living

with some of the ramifications of that

you know he has to really look after his

back and his core he's very lucky he

didn't really break too many bones but

you know he knows he has to look after

his body because he put it through a lot

so when he does have aches and pains and

things he often like a lot of men just

ignores them because he thinks that's

part of you know what he'd done to

himself before and that's part of you

know his Sporting Life and this year he

lost one of his very best friends who

played for Scotland with who'd who'd

done just that who'd ignored a lot of

those things thinking it was old

injuries and it turned out he had bowel

cancer and he died and that was um for

him just you know

huge a sense of gratitude that he he had

found out but also a reason for him

wanting to talk about it because men can

be really rubbish at that you know and

it's and it's something that I think we

talked about masculine kind of identity

and earlier on about you know my dad

when he was younger and how he

um the self-preservation and wanting to

you know keep things in in public and

actually that's a lot of that is is men

not always sharing those things so and

not having those conversations candidly

and when he did that on the pro on the

podcast

um the response from men has been

amazing to him you know and I think it's

partly because he's perceived to be

somebody who is a tough rugby player so

if he can talk about it okay I can go to

the doctor and like I can ask them a few

questions am I right in thinking

prostate cancer is the cancer that takes

the life of most men yeah 12 000 men a

year most it's the cancer the biggest

cancer killer of men

he does that Wellness well man test

he eventually goes and has a a test done

for prostate cancer I guess and then he

gets the verdict back

you've been through grief before you've

been through loss before in fact we when

we talked about you know your earlier

years you kind of had that sense of

impending doom when he makes that phone

call to you when you have that

conversation with him

what what is that like what's going on

in your head

so he had a zoom set up with his

urologist because it was at the early

part of this year when we were still not

really you know there was that covert

surgeon and he said okay don't come in

I'll do a zoom with you and Gabby

together and I had made an appointment

uh or a meeting rather with a head of a

production company I was going to be

working with to come to the house at 11.

so Kenny said he's calling at 10 30. I

said yeah great fine 10 30. I was not

expecting anything other than you're

absolutely fine you know I did not

expect negative news didn't expect him

to hear anything other than come back to

me in a year we'll keep an eye on it you

know and um otherwise I wouldn't have

made an appointment with somebody at 11

o'clock and

when his urologist told him I think we

both were just I think Kenny was more

expecting it than me I I very much was

like you're going to be absolutely fine

you know you look at your picture of

health and you know you're on your what

by pushing out massive Watts yesterday

you know and you're You're great and