I remember the day, I remember being at

home, and and getting the news, and

laughing and crying. And then it hits

you.

I was very uh

very upset by it, and

he was just

just so funny. You are a fantastic

crowd. Thank you very much.

Would you please welcome Jimmy Carr!

One of the most respected and best loved

comedians in the world. The king of

one-liners. Okay, strap in everyone. You

ready?

I'm going to start teaching comedy,

because it teaches you how to come up

with original thoughts, to find your

voice. You'll be chasing imposter

syndrome, and it's great. You should

feel it every 18 months. You learn that

failure is one of the great gifts of

stand-up comedy. And to learn how to

lose gracefully. It's a good test of how

much you want something.

How do we know what we actually want? I

love what I do now, but often question

whether I should go be like a DJ.

Do you what? I can answer that question

for you. No, you [ __ ] shouldn't.

I know everything you do, you think,

"Oh, maybe we can make a few quid out of

this." No. As a guy that's touring the

world 300 days a year, what advice would

you give me on how to be a better

communicator? Speak at 92 beats a

minute. When you look at the great

public speakers, they all seem to be

hitting that rhythm of 92 beats a

minute. Anxiety.

It's the flip side of creativity. So, I

think the cure for managing my anxiety

is

Hang on. The Netflix special drops

today, so I imagine I'm being canceled

right now. How have you come to deal

with that? So, the next time I get

canceled, I've got a plan. Here's what

I'm going to do. I'm going to say,

Congratulations, Diary of a CEO gang.

We've made some progress. 63% of you

that listen to this podcast regularly

don't subscribe, which is down from 69%.

Our goal is 50%. So, if you've ever

liked any of the videos we've posted, if

you like this channel, can you do me a

quick favor and hit the subscribe

button. It helps this channel more than

you know, and the bigger the channel

gets, as you've seen, the bigger the

guests get. Thank you, and enjoy this

episode.

Jimmy, it's great to be back. What have

you been up to? I've been, you know,

I've been around. I've been working. I

very much enjoyed this last time and I'm

kind of I was a bit nervous coming back

because yeah, it's a big show and I I

really enjoy it. I really enjoy

listening. So, I I've given it quite a

lot of thought. I've kind of made loads

of notes and uh and you know,

here's what I'll kick off with. I've

been thinking a lot about gratitude as

the mother of all virtues.

And I think, I'm right in saying this, I

think you would give me

everything you own

in 25 years time

to be the age you are now and as healthy

as you are right now.

And I think it's a really interesting

meditation to think about

right, if you had a time machine, if you

were 30 years in the future, if you

could be this healthy and feel this good

and

be this age,

you'd give everything materially that

you own in 30 years time to be back

here.

And just that just to take that in for a

minute, just to take a moment to think

about, wow,

with

this is amazing. What does that inspire

in terms of behavioral change in the

moment? Well, I think it's that thing of

like I try and I think gratitude is such

an important virtue

um and it's people talk about gratitude

practice

and it does take some practice and it

often takes like it's a like it's a way

of reframing the way that you see the

world. So, I think that we suffer in the

West a little bit from life dysmorphia.

You hear a lot about body dysmorphia or

gender dysmorphia. We've got life

dysmorphia.

A lot of people think their life is

terrible

because there's kind of the the hedonic

treadmill. You get used to how great

your life is.

No one had a hot shower until 50 years

ago.

So, I try and do this thing when you

stand in a hot shower. George Mack, my

friend, pointed this out to me when

Well, then when you stand in a a shower,

just for a moment, just go, well, no one

that you admire from 100 years ago had

this simple pleasure in life." And when

you look at the world that we live in,

where where like you're doing there's

been 100 billion people ever, right?

We are in the top top percentile in

terms of the luck that we have had.

The the lives like the the the calorific

intake that we just take for granted,

the fact that our children don't die uh

you know, in the first year, the the

modern medicine and our lives and our

the entertainment that we get. We're

living like kings.

And yet

life has never been objectively better

and subjectively worse. Because

the nature of humanity is our desires

are memetic. So, we've got this thing

where we we sort of, you know, how happy

are you? Well, it's it's your quality of

life

minus envy.

That's how happy you are.

And it's easy to look

at everyone else and how they're doing

and and not take pleasure in what you

have.

It's funny cuz there's a cost to a hot

shower, isn't there? And we that's

exactly what you're describing there

because subjectively, I think a lot of

people don't feel like they are very

happy. And I think objectively, if you

look at some of the stats around

suicidality and depression and mental

health, it doesn't appear that people

are any happier. So, even though we have

sort of

materially improved our lives, we have

hot showers now, there's a cost to the

hot shower in the sense that um

maybe it's made life too easy?

Maybe it's made life too comfortable.

Maybe we're in a comfort crisis. Yeah, I

mean there's there's a there's a lot to

be said on that. I mean, it's very I

suppose it's very tough love, but you

can't have an easy life and a great

character.

Sh- Show me a trust fund kid that

inherited a bunch of money and I'll show

you someone mentally tortured.

It's It's true, right? Everyone's like

your your struggle, what where you've

come from in Plymouth,

uh you know, in living in poverty to now

having stuff isn't fun, getting stuff is

fun.

Right? It's not the pursuit of

happiness,

it's the happiness of the pursuit.

Right? It's It's just It's that thing

and it's not like, you know, that the

self-help is not the journey, it's the

destination. It's not either the journey

or the destination, it's who you become

on the journey. And here's the terrible

thing about life, it's self-assignment.

Like, you know, there's school and

college and then you get dropped into

the the real world at some point and

look and you go would you you have to

decide what you're going to do and you

can take an easy path and it's it's

ultimately less fun. It's short money.

Or you take a hard path and you give

yourself a challenge and it's great. And

I think, you know, a lot of the times

it's that thing of like it it's hard to

do.

That's it it's it's life is life is

really really tough. Those are tough

things to hear

uh and it's

it's easy for us

because we're sort of on that road.

But then, you know, the thing I love

about this podcast is you're sort of

trying to there's so much kind of wisdom

in it, so many stories that you're sort

of you're giving people this kind of

road map for okay, well, make your life

a little bit harder in the short term

and

and and get somewhere. I mean, it's

really I I didn't really get what

religion was

until comparatively late in life.

Like the idea that God is a proxy for

the future.

Right? So so So God represents the

future. So work hard now

for a better life in heaven. Right? So

that's it's kind of it's the same as all

self-help. Like do you Okay, so so

sacrifice

the present for the future. Work is kind

of the same. It's a sacrifice of the

present for something better in the

future.

That's like it's a it's it's an

interesting thing to sort of think

around, isn't it?

That like what you're going to do now.

So I've got this um Chris Williamson,

you know Chris Williamson, he's a really

good friend of mine, he's a lovely guy

and we came up with this idea. So me,

him, and George Mack were chatting about

what what should you do today

that you tomorrow would be happy you

did.

So, sort of 24 hours in the future.

How best to live? Cuz people sort of say

it like, "Oh, well, I'm going to do

something for 5 years, you know?" So,

it's this huge goal. But you won't rise

to your goals, you'll fall to your

systems, right? So, that thing of like,

"What could you do tomorrow

uh what could you do today rather that

you'd be happy you did tomorrow?"

Whether it's the food you eat, the

exercise you take, the work you do. What

do you do that is Oh, right, I went to

the gym yesterday. I feel great. Like a

a little bit of DOMS. Or oh, I wrote 10

jokes. And tonight I'm on stage trying

those jokes. Oh, well, I'm

Oh, well, thanks, me yesterday.

I you know, I did something that was

good. So, you can kind of time's going

to pass whatever you do.

And you can give yourself gifts in the

future.

You can be rich and you can have a

six-pack, and you can be successful, and

you can be in a happy long-term

relationship with a beautiful family.

You can give to yourself those those

gifts, but that there's some tough times

in the present to give yourself that

gift in the future. There's something I

really wanted to ask you about is you've

climbed to the very peak of your

profession. Like you really

generational talent, this guy. That's

what I'm saying.

true. It's true. You really have You

really have. You think about where you

started off at sort of 25 years old in

your mid-20s when you decided to leave

that I think advertising business and

pursue comedy.

Like where you are now really is must be

the

a dream you like never imagined could

come true. You're at the very peak of

your profession. And I think at the peak

of your profession, I wonder sometimes

if you wonder more than other people who

are still on their journey up the

mountain, what the point in all of this

is. Well, I think that's that's

incredibly interesting. Okay, so there's

a couple of things to unpack there. So,

you never feel like you're at the top of

your profession because you're A, you're

standing on the shoulders of giants in

whatever industry you're in. So, you

might think, "Oh, well, doing he's doing

very well. Uh you know, he's got a

Netflix special and a new tour and da da

da all of the you know all of the

things." But then inside you're going,

"Well, I'm as good as the next joke I

write." So, the the thing that I try and

do is be quite stoic.

I'm trying to be I'm trying to do less

better. I'm trying to just be a stand-up

comedian. The world ordered a stand-up

comedian and I'm trying to honor that.

Right? That's what people want, right?

Go out, write jokes, tell jokes,

push the boundaries. Great, that's your

little role in the world. Do that. So,

the more I focus on that, the the the

better it gets. More people come to the

show. It's that thing of like

I suppose the whole of the world is

built on incentives, right? So, you you

you put down sugar, you get ants.

You tell jokes, you deliver on a show,

and people come and they enjoy it and

then they come back next time. What do

you get out of that? I mean, the

self-actualization, I suppose. The idea

of going, "Well, I do this thing that I

I very much enjoy comedy because it's an

immediate feedback loop.

It's a It's a very lucky business to be

in

because I don't have to wait. Like I

don't have to discuss with someone, "Oh,

do you think this joke's going to work

or not? And do what do you think do you

think it's too offensive or do you think

it's ah

Tell it. Test it.

It's It's kind of it's the Silicon

Valley the um you know uh the the dual

testing. Is Is this better than this?

This or this? I'm like an an optician.

Like just is this this or this? Or this

or this? This wording or this wording?

And the audience is a genius. The

audience tell me what works. So, it's

it's kind of

Yeah, it's it's it's a joyful thing to

kind of to write a new show. And then to

put something on the on the shelf like

the new Netflix special, Natural Born

Killer,

now streaming on Netflix,

is is like

it it feels like I've given people

irrefutable proof I am who I say I am.

And that feels really good. Like that's

what I do. That's better than the last

one. And the last time I was on the

show, I talked about wanting to write

longer bits, longer form. Like I got a

great fastball, but I haven't got a

knuckleball. And I wanted to try and

write some different bits that maybe

made some points.

And I went away and I did it. And for

better or for worse, it's there. And I I

gave it a shot and I think it's a

better, more rounded comedy special than

the previous one. And I And I don't hate

the previous one. It's got really good

jokes in it. It's really funny.

I like it. And then the new tour, I

think will be better again. I think you

can see You see progress. And what are

you chasing?

You're not chasing the the thing. It's

you're you're enjoying the process. It's

It's being. So,

I don't think you get self-esteem from

the six-pack you get at the gym. I think

you get self-esteem from being the kind

of person that goes to the gym every

day.

And I don't think you get anything from

the from the show, from having done the

Netflix special, but being the person

that put that together is the That's

That's the enjoyable thing.

And you get You get kind of better at

it. You You know, the light The weight

doesn't get lighter. Your back gets

stronger.

I think about this with myself a lot. I

look at what I'm doing in business and

stuff and with the podcast and other

things. And I go, there are moments

where my brain will ask myself the

question, like, what's the end goal

here? Because I've got the things that I

materially need need to be happy. I

could retire and just go chill on a

boat. But for some reason, I'm sort of

torturing myself in many respects.

But torturing yourself? Sometimes You

know what you're doing? You're giving

yourself a better character because

you're giving yourself a challenge.

Right? We all need the challenge. So,

it's like you know, with any kind of

mythological story, it's the hero's

journey. And you're on a journey to to

to do something, to become something,

right? And you're What's your What are

you doing here? What's your role in the

world?

But going and sitting on a beach isn't

anything. Like you There's a reason

holidays are two weeks. It's so you have

3 days of going, "Ah,

we should get back."

Like holiday should be 10 days.

But somehow we we've made it 2 weeks and

that's great because it allows people

sort of 3 days to go, "Do you know what?

I've got to get back to work. I've got

to do something." I like that thing of

like the top of your profession. Well,

you're always be looking ahead, right?

Someone that's, you know, if it's for

you probably Joe Rogan. You go, "Well,

Joe's got the biggest podcast in the

world." And what are you? Number two?

And you'll And so you're you've got

something to aim at. And even if you're

number one, then you're going to go,

"Yeah, but radio's still bigger." So,

huh.

I I like that thing of you'll be chasing

something, giving yourself maybe an

artificial

um goal in the future. But it's a it's a

it's just a um

uh something to point you in the right

direction. Is there a little bit of

unhappiness as sort of voluntary

unhappiness involved in wanting to that

thing off in the future, do you think?

You know, cuz if there's I sat with a

psychologist a psychiatrist the other

day who was on a podcast and he said,

"If you live your life continually

wanting, you're essentially deferring

your happiness and replacing it with

sort of discontent in the moment."

Well, this is I mean, listen, even the

worst people say great things.

Chairman Mao said you can't smell the

roses from a galloping horse.

So, when you're moving at that kind of

speed,

you don't take any time to enjoy life,

right? So, you have to just just enjoy

the moment. But you enjoy these

conversations. You enjoy the thing that

you do. Now, the hard work is a lot of

the stuff around it. You know, the

travel and the the admin or whatever.

But you have to love the whole job.

You can't just go, "Well, I want that

bit." Because in the same way that

people are jealous of you, there'll be

other podcasters that are very jealous

of what you've got. But they're jealous

of what you've got. They're not jealous

of how you got it.

No comedians are jealous of how I got

it.

No one sits there and goes, "Oh, I wish

I could sit for 10 hours a day and write

jokes." Oh.

They think I want to play that venue or

I'd I'd love to have that Netflix

special. But they don't sit there going,

"Well, what pathology would you need in

your head to write that many one-liners

and to care that much about it? Who

would you have to be to do that?

And we're all chasing something, right?

I think we're chasing imposter syndrome.

I think imposter syndrome's got a bad

reputation and it's great. You should

feel it every 18 months.

As you level up, you should feel like,

do I belong here?

Right?

I This show's much bigger than it was

when I was last on. Congratulations,

you. Why is it bigger? Well, because you

pushed yourself and you worked harder,

right?

And now, sometimes you feel like, oh my

god, I'm interviewing this person. Huh.

Uh great. Don't feel comfortable.

Lovely.

As soon as you start to feel

comfortable, you need to push yourself a

little bit further.

There's a great story my friend told me.

This is a very name-droppy story. You

mind? Good. All right. Brandon Flowers

told me this story. So, he's filming a

video with Lou Reed like 10 years ago.

They did a song with Lou Reed, which is

pretty cool for The Killers.

And they're filming this video. And

they're backstage. They're in the

They're in the uh the

the green room.

And Lou Reed's there. He's got leather

trousers on. He's got a leather jacket

and a vest. He's got mirrored

sunglasses.

He's Lou Reed.

And he looks in the mirror and Brandon

sort of sees him just like checking

himself out.

And Lou Reed just goes,

"I wish I was that guy."

Lou Reed's got imposter syndrome and

he's Lou Reed. There's nothing the

matter with it. You know, a guy that's

been a rock star and a legend for 40

years is still feeling that thing of

like going, "I don't feel like I'm that

guy."

Great. That's how you should feel.

So, if you haven't felt imposter

syndrome in the last 12 18 months, you

think there's something probably What?

Push yourself a little bit harder. I

mean, it depends. It depends what you

want to do. You can have an easy life.

Some people, you know,

work to live. Some people live to work.

It's It's There's different ways of

doing things. It's not necessarily You

don't necessarily need to push yourself

in that way.

Like, you're listening to us and and you

know, there might be a psychiatrist

listening going, "Well, these guys are

pathologically

ambitious. This isn't healthy. They

should just be, you know, chilling out."

And I maybe they have a good point.

I look at your work ethic and I just

feel like I've never seen anything like

it for someone who is incredibly

successful. I look at your tour dates

and I'm like this guy spends how many

dates a year on stage? Maybe 300 shows a

year, something like that.

300 shows a year.

While most people turn up to work every

day, don't they? I mean,

you know, it's also most people like get

your average listener to this show and

go, "Okay, do you want to swap lives?

You You have to work for 2 hours a day,

but you'll be telling jokes to people

and it's joyful."

It's what what looks like work

to other people and feels like play to

you.

There you go.

There's There's like It's a really happy

life that people go, "Oh my god, he

works so hard." and I'm going, "You're

joking, aren't you? You are literally

joking." And then you go, "Oh, the tour

dates." Like this last week I was in, I

don't know, South Africa, Paris,

Istanbul, Budapest, Vienna.

What a life.

What a life cuz really That's the other

thing about life. People don't want to

live longer, they want more memories.

And And really how do you get more

memories? Well, it's it's doing novel,

interesting things. So, if you commute

to work every day the same commute for a

year, you don't have 300 memories of

that commute. You've got one memory.

Right? But if you do different things

every day, you go to different places,

you talk to different people, you you

experience the world. That's a fantastic

that variety in life gives you more

memories, more life.

You pointed at your head a second ago

and said,

"We must be pathological in some way."

Yeah. Do you think you are? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm the I don't know.

I mean, I'm not sure if I'm not entirely

sure if comedy isn't a

some sort of low-level mental health

issue that you can turn into a career. I

mean, it's you know, cuz like for most

people it seems quite strange to want to

stand on stage and

and tell jokes.

I think it's It sounds terrifying to a

lot of people, but I find it very, very

fun. Have you ever figured out why you

are wired in such a way?

Not really. I mean, I suppose that thing

of it goes back to childhood. It goes

back to my mother was an incredibly

funny, larger than life Irish woman. I

was very, very close to her. I believe

they call it enmeshed when you have like

a very close relationship with your

mother.

And

she suffered with depression. And I

didn't know. You don't know as a kid.

Your house is just your house. You think

it's normal, right? So, if your mom's in

a dressing gown when you get home from

school and she hasn't got herself

together, you just think, "Well, that's

what moms are like."

So, my whole childhood was aimed at

making her laugh, especially when

driving.

Fun thing to do. Make your mom laugh,

grab the steering wheel, drive, and you

know.

Have you had to unpack that to stop that

getting in the way, whatever that

driving force is getting in the way of

your adult life? Cuz I thought about

that a lot myself. I think the things

that have driven me here aren't

necessarily the same

things that are going to help me succeed

in the next phase of life, whether it's

being a father, like I know you're a,

you know, you've had a kid I think in

2019.

Um or whether it's being in a romantic

relationship. I've had to kind of really

work hard to unpack

things so that I can succeed in a new

season. Listen, I'm not a therapist, but

here's what I would say. I think you're

going to have to make a transition from

looking at

measurable metrics to immeasurable

metrics.

I think you've got an amazing resume.

You've got an incredible CV of stuff

you've done and achievements and stuff

you can point at and and the the amount

of views on the website and the money

that you've made and the businesses

you've started. Great. And I think the

immeasurable stuff

is going to become much more important.

So, George Mack has this kind of theory

on we trade in life the measurable for

the immeasurable. So, you trade work

for, I don't know, time with parents.

Can't really measure time with parents.

And it's kind of

it's tough to lunch with your parents as

opposed to the job and the thing and the

work and that I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm

busy.

And you only notice it when it goes to

zero.

So, mom dies and you go, "Well, I'll

never see her again."

What wouldn't you give now for another

meal, another time, another thing? So,

you go trying to find that balance in

life. And I think

parenting and being a father

is about that, isn't it? It's about

that.

It's about trading the the measurable

for the immeasurable. Warren Farrell

tells a great story. Do you know Warren

Farrell? It's like the myth of male

power. I think a lot of his writing's

been used by

nefariously by people sort of that are a

bit Anyway,

he's a very interesting guy and he's

he's very authentic. Um

and he told the story. I heard him tell

the story. He said said this guy came to

me and

very successful man.

You know, head of head of a business

that makes millions. Really doing very

well.

And he said he was

unhappy because he had worked all the

way through his son's childhood and he

didn't he hadn't bonded with his son

because he'd just been away

at work.

And he went he went to see Warren

Farrell and he's a, you know,

psychiatrist and whatever and he says

he says, "Okay, what are you going to

do?" He said, "Well, I'm going to I'm

going to give up my job

for 5 years and I'm going to be at home

with my kid.

I'm I'm

[ __ ] it. I'm not doing any of that. I'm

going to be with my kid

for 5 years.

Just be in that moment."

And he did it.

And he was very happy that he did it.

It was John Lennon.

And no matter how important you think

your job is,

you're not John Lennon.

You know, I'm sure he could have done

great things in those 5 years,

but you think, "Oh my god, I'm so glad

he did that." I'm so glad cuz what

incredible artist he was. He'd given us

so much.

And that he had those years for himself.

And that's for him.

I mean I I imagine his kid imagine Sean

Lennon's very glad he did that.

But he got that time.

And I imagine he didn't regret it.

And his life was cut short tragically.

And you think it's even more powerful

when you consider that.

That he he didn't put it off.

He didn't go well I'll do that. I'll do

I'll get to I'll get to a million

subscribers and then I'll do that. I'll

sell a few more records and then one

more tour and then I'll spend time with

the family. He did it. Isn't that

beautiful?

There's a lot of emotion in your face

when you tell that story.

Beautiful story, isn't it?

I mean I could

when you think about it you go that's

kind of that's life, isn't it? And the

and mortality I think is something we

don't think about enough.

I love that the Muslim

phrase for death,

the certainty.

You know we're we're in this brief shaft

of light between two oceans of darkness.

Everyone always thinks about the tail

end, right? Everyone thinks about what

happens after you die.

Mark Twain had this great quote, you

know, we we

he said he said I wasn't alive for

billions of years before my birth.

And it didn't inconvenience me in the

least.

But this brief shaft of light's kind of

magnificent, isn't it?

I think so.

I think it can be.

This idea of um

you know, depression is essentially

thinking about yourself too much. You

last time we spoke on the podcast you

talked about

I would say yeah, sorry that that feels

to me maybe a little bit too harsh.

Because I think people suffer with

depression and that's a it's a disease.

And it's incredibly serious and we think

of suicide as being something that

stands alone. It's not it's a symptom of

a disease called depression, right? So

it's the it's the permanent solution to

a temporary problem. You don't want to

feel this way anymore.

But actually, you don't want to feel

nothing anymore.

Uh you'd like to feel better. So, it's

that thing of like I don't we talk about

it enough, but I think that thing of you

know, thinking about yourself all the

time, I think you just leads to a can

lead to a a melancholy a sadness. I

think depression is maybe a slightly

separate thing. Not to

nitpick, but it feels like it feels like

that's a disease. Yeah. And there's also

a lot of sadness in the world.

And you're lucky if you're sad.

Because if you're if you're sad, it's

circumstantial.

And you can do something about it.

You know, are you depressed because you

have serotonin imbalance in your head

and it's a heritable trait? Or are you

sad because your life hasn't worked out

the way you want it to work out? Well,

if that's the case, the latter, you're

in luck cuz you can change that. It does

feel like there's a bit of a crisis

going on within young men at the moment.

And I think your new show on Netflix

shines a light on many of the

difficulties that young men are facing.

I I was really excited to talk to you

about this particular topic cuz I've

been trying to arrive at a position

myself on why so many young men appear

to be lost and suicidality has increased

and there's you know, these new

masculine influences

or masculine influencers that are really

rounding up this cohort of young men.

Who who are you talking about? Andrew

Tate? Andrew Tates of the world.

Tate is interesting, isn't he? Cuz

who made the I think John Mulaney made

the observation Trump is a poor person's

idea of what a rich person looks like.

Yeah, I've got gold taps. And I think so

Andrew Tate is like a 14-year-old boy's

idea of what masculinity might look

like.

Like it's really it's it's And And And

of course, nature abhors a vacuum. And

there's a real vacuum for

elders. Like we now, we don't learn how

to shave from our fathers. It's a

YouTube video. And so, you lose

something in that in that bonding. So,

And there's a big bit in the new show

where I give a young guy, an audience

member, a pretty tough time. Like we

have the talk and I give them advice on

how to uh be with a woman.

And it's I'm not wrong about anything.

It's really funny and it's really rude.

But I'm not wrong about stuff.

It's like it's about consent and it's

it's I think it's really it's really

good cuz it's I've sugared the pill of

the message because people don't want to

talk about it. People go, "It's obvious

what consent is." Yeah, not to

17-year-old boys or girls. It's like

actually what what does that look like

and how should that be? So, it's uh

yeah, it's a it's a really fun routine.

It's really fun routine to perform and

to write. What is it to be a man these

days cuz it's quite confusing in time

even the conversation around like

chivalry and understanding, you know

talk about toxic masculinity and easy

fix.

Be a gentleman. Be a mensch.

That's it. That's it. It's done. Be a

gentleman. Be a mensch. Uh you know, a

gentleman is never rude by accident.

It's Christopher Hitchens' line. Great.

I I I don't know. I mean, my thing about

young men today, if I was going to give

young men advice, it would be

get the right drugs

and the real thing.

Right?

In real life. Live in real life, right?

So, why young men are obsessed by video

games, right? Obsessed. They're spending

hours and hours and hours online playing

video games. Why?

Well, that's a proxy for career.

Right? Video games, you think about the

levels of video games and what people do

on video games. It's that's a proxy.

That's like a It's a It's a substitute

for the career that they're not having.

And then they spend a lot of time, uh

you know, fapping to to

Pornhub or YouPorn or whatever.

And that's a proxy for sex.

And my thing would be

George Orwell wasn't right.

Our power won't be taken away from us by

some authoritarian master. We're going

to give it away for cheap dopamine.

And the cheap dopamine of video games

and online porn and living online is is

is getting in the way of real life. So,

it's risk, right? That's that's what

we're not allowing young people to do

because we're we're saying to young

people, "You can't take risks in real

life. We're we're helicopter parenting.

We're not giving them the freedom." How

much freedom should you give a kid? As

much as they can cope with, right?

14-year-olds used to be babysitters.

They now need babysitters.

That's not good, right? So, you should

allow them more freedom in in the real

world because otherwise, the only place

they get freedom is online.

No freedom in the real world. You're not

allowed to go to the park and hang out,

but you're allowed to do whatever you

want online. Well, that's a that feels

like a very bad social experiment.

That feels like a bad idea.

Yeah, it feels like we've inverted

um Ma- You know Maslow's this pyramid

pyramid of hierarchy of

needs and you go, "Well, food and

shelter and warmth and to do all the

We've got all the bottom stuff worked

out in our society, right? We we kind of

can't see it. We're not grateful for

that because we can't see The hot

shower. The hot shower. We can't see the

third world and we can't see the people

in the past having a tougher time than

us. So, we take it for granted. But,

we've worked out that stuff.

They hadn't worked that stuff out 200

years ago.

But, they had the top of the pyramid

sorted. Everyone knew who they were.

They had their identity and they knew

what their purpose was.

Everyone knew

who they were, what they were about, and

they were connected to to the others in

the in the group. And now we're kind of

free-floating individuals. We kind of

worship the individual as if as if we

can survive as individuals.

I always think of that thing of like

there's no such thing as a baby.

There's a baby and a mother. There's a

baby and a father. Baby and an auntie.

But, there's no such thing as a baby

because a baby on its own isn't

anything.

It's dead. It's you It needs taking care

of.

We're all still babies.

We all need the connections.

You you yourself Yeah, sure there's

there's a lot of yourself that's that's

within you,

but a lot of it is out in the world.

It's connected to other people, and it

kind of it mediates who you think you

are.

And that's, you know, that's that's

slightly missing from society where you

kind of live online and you're kind of a

self-authored thing. You're just on on

the computer on the screen, and you're

not connected, and you're not taking

risks. Taking risks is really important.

Is this in part due to the rise in

atheism and agnosticism? I think we we

both, me and you, lost our sort of

religious faith around the same age.

Mhm. I think sort of early

Early mid mid 20s. I think it's a weird

thing where you go You can lose your I I

certainly don't believe in the stories.

There's two types of fools, right?

There's people that take religion

literally,

and there's people that think it has no

value.

Okay? Both both idiots for different

reasons. Like it works as a thing,

religion. I quite I miss it because the

reason the ceremony works isn't because

God's pleased, it's because the people

came together.

And so I think we look for things that

that are um proxies for religion.

And sometimes that's Good.

football. It could be environmentalism.

You know, because you go, "Well, I I

need something. I need purpose in my

life. I need to feel like I'm I'm adding

value, and what a great cause. I'm going

to save the planet." It's a big thing to

think about. So it's got a religiosity

to it.

But I don't think that's the you know, I

don't think that's necessarily the

answer. You know, some people do it with

politics. They think politics is going

to

is going to be heaven. They're going to

They're going to come up with some

perfect system.

I think you're putting too much pressure

on politics.

First time I've ever said this,

actually, but when you just said I I

think I miss religion, I think I miss

religion. It's nice, wasn't it? It was.

It's a lovely thought when you lose

someone that you love very much. It's a

lovely thought.

I mean, heaven is just it's a lovely

thought. And I think in a way in our

culture fame and fortune has replaced

heaven.

It's the land of milk and honey and

where you can feel like you're

everything's okay. Everything's taken

care of.

And it is good.

But it's it's not it's not heaven. I

don't believe in an afterlife. I believe

in a next life.

So you don't think anything happens

after you die, but I think you can have

a next life.

A very different life. So it's

interesting you're at this point of your

your life when you're thinking about

well I might we might start a family.

It's a whole other life. It's a whole

other you'll hardly recognize yourself.

You and your partner will be saying what

did we do? What did we do all day?

Now we're not at Peppa Pig World or

wherever you find yourselves.

It's really just struck me that I do

kind of miss religion, but it feels like

when I lost my religion I put a backpack

on a backpack full of weights on and I

think that's what the responsibility and

individualism is. I mean for me the the

loss of religion was a rush of blood to

the head. It was like oh I I this is my

life and I need to make good on this and

I need to live it.

The tragedy is most people don't have

that kind of they don't get to kind of

follow their their their dream.

When you were 28 years old your mother

died who had a you know a profound

influence on you for many reasons but

also is very much the inspiration or at

least the

singular biggest causal factor of your

career. When I read through your story

even more recently you've undergone

quite a lot of grief even the loss of

your dog I believe which had a

pretty large impact on you.

I think grief is cumulative. So every

time you lose someone or something

and actually losing a pet can be it's a

weird thing cuz people lose pets and

it's like I don't know the other people

in the office can be a bit

okay.

Oh well, what we doing for lunch? It's

like it can be a really affecting thing

because it's not just

everyone you've lost and you think about

mortality but you think about your own

mortality And you think about, you know,

you kind of think about it it takes you

to a very melancholy place of like,

at some point you're going to say

goodbye. And I guess you think about

those things of going, what are the, you

know, in life as we were talking about

the the the great you can have great

a great resume, great CV with loads of

stuff on it.

But

what are people going to say at your

eulogy?

That's the important thing.

That's the stuff that really matters.

And it's a very different It's again,

it's the it's the it's a hidden metric

of what people going to say at your

your funeral. What are What are people

going to say when you when you pass?

Uh I don't know. I think grief's it's a

it's very interesting. It's very It is

that thing of it, you know, kind of

comes in waves and, you know, I don't

think about it for a long time and then

it and then it hits you.

How have you dealt with grief in your

life?

I mean, I I I think when my uh

I don't know. I think

I think I'm slightly guilty of,

you know, suppressing it a little bit. I

think when

uh I think when Sean Lock died, I was

very uh

I was very upset by it. And

you just go to work. You just kind of

go, well, I'll I'll put myself in this

joyful place of laughter and maybe not

have to think about it as much. But it's

a

Yeah, it's you know, like they're gone

forever and there was something really

amazing about when Sean died because

people shared so much online. So, you

had these

clips of like I remember the day I

remember being at home and and getting

the news and

laughing and crying kind of real kind of

um

cognitive dissonance of like feeling

really upset. And then they played just

all the funniest

clips of Sean. Like people just sending

me clips, clips, clips. And he was just

so funny.

And that joy

is kind of there. It's It's It's really

lovely. It's a really like for all of

social media's ills on that day,

my god, it made a difference.

What did it make you realize about both

Shawn and life when he passed?

I I don't know whether there's any great

revelation in it. I think it's that

thing of just, you know, enjoy

it you know, enjoy your time. Enjoy the

Enjoy this

because it's fleeting.

I mean,

all too fleeting for for Shawn who's

very young. Uh

But it's you know, I think that that

thing of

you know, family and and you know,

spending time with the people that you

love and and doing what you love.

I think prioritizing that. It's If you

want to meet someone high agency, meet

someone that's got 6 months to live.

I'd say their tolerance for [ __ ] is

is about as low as it gets.

I think living your life like that is

not a bad idea. It really shows you what

your priorities would be.

Someone said you had 6 months to live,

what would you do?

That's how what you should be doing

anyway.

Yeah, that's really what I'm what I'm

getting at is there's something that

facing our own mortality teaches us.

Um but unfortunately, we have to we

often learn that when we we haven't got

a lot of time to implement it and

sometimes when we when someone close to

us passes away, we can vicariously learn

that message about our own mortality and

what really what our priorities should

be and really how we should be living

our life and really what mattered the

most. And I imagine losing someone that

was was as close to you as Shawn was

sends you some kind of message about

priorities and life and

gratitude and all these things we talked

about.

Yeah.

I think it's Yeah, I think gra-

gratitude's a big part of it as well.

That idea of kind of going, "Wow, that

was That was pretty special."

You You were so so I might grab I might

grab another coffee. Can I grab the rest

of my coffee?

Yeah. Yeah. Is that all right? Am I

allowed? Yeah. He said breaking with the

format.

I might shuffle my notes as well. I

might shuffle my notes.

This is a business podcast or at least

that's how it started. And

have you have you listened back? Cuz I

don't think it is. No, I'll be honest

with you, it's it's not. This is But

business is life. You know what I mean?

And they're the same thing. The same

communication, mental health, striving,

progress, people, relationships. It's

all business at the end of the day.

I mean, you are I mean

I mean I know it's still called Diary of

a CEO, but I don't think you've talked

about business on this for like 3 years.

And even then it was like a passing. So,

when you started your business, how did

that make you feel?

This isn't You're an old hippie is what

you are.

You know, this is a great podcast, but

this is a storytelling podcast. So many

of So many entrepreneurs are old

hippies. I think of Steve Jobs, he was

an old hippie.

You know, and it's interesting. I think

that thing of like

what does business teach people? Like

we're talking about like young men and

and and kind of there's a bit of a

crisis going on out there with young

men. And and listen, young women are not

having an easy time either. But it's

that thing of like the the suicide rate

whatever

is horrific with young men. And you go,

"Well, what's going on?" And it's

agency. I don't think we're giving young

people enough agency. So they don't feel

like they have they have control. And

really I think the thing of like serial

entrepreneurs. Like no one ever seems to

hit on their first company.

It's the second and third and fourth and

but they just keep going. They go,

"Well, I'm never going to work for

anyone. I'm going to do it myself."

That's kind of I don't think we're

teaching enough of that.

It's we think it's like teaching someone

to be a self-starter is kind of a

contradiction in terms. But it's it

it kind of works, right? There's I think

we're teaching the wrong things. I've

got a theory. I think I'm going to start

teaching comedy.

I I

Okay, so

comedy is very new. It really you could

trace its roots back to George Carlin

and Richard Pryor in the early 70s as

like one guy on stage in a big theater

and he's selling tickets and people are

just seeing him, right? You can trace it

back

to the dawn of time, but really the

modern stand-up early 70s is a good good

starting point. Right? So it's a very

new medium compared to music and film,

right? It's very new. So I sort of view

George Carlin and

Richard Pryor as the John the Baptist,

right? And and Jesus isn't here yet. And

it's this new evolving medium and unlike

music we don't have a language yet.

So we need a language of like, okay,

what are the joke types and how could

you how do you how do you write that

down? How do you configure it? There's

too much magical thinking around

stand-up comedy.

You know that idea that oh I I I just I

just came up with it. It's just yeah, I

just but actually learning how jokes

work and systematizing and analyzing

them, I think really helps. So I've been

working on a book with

Amanda Baker who helped me on my first

book. We've been working on a thing

together for the last couple of years

trying to teach comedy and I think I

think there's a real benefit to it cuz

if you think about music in schools,

right? We'd all argue learning music's

great, right? It's a great idea teach a

kid the piano grade three, they learn

something about music and they'll

appreciate music much more in life. I

think comedy's much more relevant,

right? What does comedy teach you,

right? It teaches you you would you

learn to kind of you find yourself and

you find your voice and you learn to

communicate your ideas and to order them

and write them down and

to communicate.

It's very valuable.

Like the the great tragedy of life is

most people live and die and never hear

their own voice.

Everybody wants to be a better speaker,

a better communicator.

You know, it's funny cuz I sat with a

guy called

Julian Treasure who has I think a TED

Talk on communication and speaking that

did I don't know

30 40 million views and he said I also

did a TED Talk on listening.

[ __ ] no one listened to it. Everyone

listened to the talk about being A

BETTER SPEAKER.

THAT'S THAT'S THAT'S THAT'S PRETTY

FUNNY. UH THE UH YEAH, WELL now I could

imagine that. You as a as a guy that's

touring the world 300 days a year, you

must have really

been able to break down the science of

communication and being a good speaker

that's transferable to business, public

speaking, life, sales, etc.

What would What advice would you give me

on how to be a better speaker?

Communicator. All right, okay.

92 beats a minute.

What's that mean? Speak at 92 beats a

minute.

That's

There you go. I mean, there's kind of a

science behind it and I've looked into

it, but most great public speakers sort

of speak in a rhythm. Well, it doesn't

matter how fast they're speaking, but

they're kind of hitting 92 beats a

minute. So, I tend to listen to a

playlist of songs that are all 92 beats

a minute before going on stage.

I know that sounds like madness.

Uh you know, and it's it maybe it is,

but I think there's something about that

rhythm that just the audience that kind

of um

the proximal speed of cognition, that

idea everyone kind of gets into that

rhythm.

And when you look at the great public

speakers, they all seem to be hitting

that that rhythm of 92 beats a minute.

Do you think Trump's a good public

speaker? He's an excellent public

speaker.

Of course.

I don't know why people would have a

problem admitting that. It's I mean,

he's kind of and he's freestyling. It's

like There's nothing planned. This is

This is insane.

Um

Yeah, it's uh

Cuz he really leads into

sort of exaggerated storytelling and

emotion much more than facts

and figures

than most politicians. I mean, it's a

it's You know, there's a theory that

this is all Gwen Stefani's fault.

What do you mean?

Okay, so Donald Trump was present was

hosting The Apprentice.

Uh and Gwen Stefani was on uh

America's Got Talent or one of the

singing shows. Maybe it was X Factor,

anyway, one of those big singing shows.

He found out she was getting paid more

than him.

And so, he wanted to build his

relevance, right? So,

he decided, well, I know, I'll run for

president. I'll become incredibly

relevant for like 3 months. He's a

contender, he's whatever, and then you

drop out of the race, no problem at all.

So, he hires all those people in Trump

Plaza, and he comes down the gold

escalator, and he does the speech, and

great, okay? Nothing.

He then goes, and there's footage of

this, he then goes and does

the first Make America Great Again

rally.

And they've got footage of him walking

up the steps, and he sees like 10,000

people all chanting.

And there's the realization,

oh,

oh, this could be real.

It's kind of a yeah.

I think that's I think that's actually

Gwen Stefani did it.

Get her.

I was The reason I was I was talking

about business is because

Cuz this is not about CEO. It's about a

podcast about business. No, no,

what it is is because you taught me last

time

sort of indirectly about something that

I've now developed and I called myself

no man's land, which is that moment when

you make a decision to leave the comfort

and security of your identity, your

professional

you know, endeavor, what it whatever it

is. You you were working in marketing,

and then like I always reference how it

objectively insane it was for you to

leave that and go and become a comedian.

And I've I've dubbed that no man's land.

That sort of 6 to 12 months of looking a

bit stupid, of losing your friends,

losing you know, I refer to these five

buckets in life. You have your

knowledge, skills, your network, your

resources, and your reputation. And when

you go into no man's land, you fill the

first two buckets of your knowledge and

skills, but you empty the last three.

You lose your network, you lose your

resources often, you lose your

reputation, whatever that was at the

time, but you fill these first two

buckets. You made that for whatever

reason decision to leave a normal life

and go and tell jokes for no money.

Some people, for some reason, and I've

seen consistently on this podcast, like

Derren Brown, who was had a great

professional life ahead of him, and

decided to go do card tricks on tables

in Bristols for 10 years.

I What what is it about these people

that's making them I think they've had

the realization, right? They've They've

had the Confucius moment.

Every man has two lives, and his second

begins when he realizes he only has one.

And

the good is the enemy of the best.

Cuz you know when people are on podcasts

like this, that moment looks like

bravery.

But I

I wonder if to you in when you quit your

sort of marketing job

No, there's plenty of 4:00 in the

morning,

"What have I done? This seems This seems

crazy." Especially when you really kind

of when you broke it cuz when you leave

as well, you don't have like an hour of

great stuff of like that you've written.

You've got like 20 minutes of stuff that

you kind of look back and go,

"It's kind of joke-shaped. There's

something there." But really, it's it's

insane. Yeah, but I think that's great.

I think failure is one of the great

gifts of stand-up comedy.

You You sort of make friends with

failure as a stand-up because you write

so many things that don't work. You

write so many jokes that you think are

just going to be great, and then you

tell them and the audience goes, "No,

that isn't anything."

Guess again.

And that idea of going Yeah, failure

Failure is kind of frowned upon in our

society. We don't let kids fail.

We don't let kids lose at sports. We

don't let You know, that It It's It's

really silly because we're sort of

teaching them if you If everyone's a

winner, then you don't learn how to

lose.

And to learn how to lose

gracefully is That's a great skill to

have, isn't it?

And And you kind of you know, it it

checks your ego and you you some Not

everything in life is going to work out

for you. And it's Okay, so you you test

it. And it It's a good test of how much

you want something.

You go and have you have a terrible gig

and you go, "Well, I'm never doing that

again."

Or you have a terrible gig and go,

"Well,

you know,

you you lose or you learn."

You develop your relationship with no.

I've Someone said this to me the other

day and it really stuck with me that you

need you know, I worked in telesales for

a couple of years and it really helped

me develop my relationship with the

answer no.

And so now in life I've I think I have a

much healthier relationship with the

word no because for me in cool in it's

that the law of averages where in the

call center all it meant was that I was

one step closer to getting the yes.

So I'd get you know, you get loads of

no's in a row and you sit there and go,

"Fuck no, this next guy's going to buy

these [ __ ] double glazing."

And I think I don't 16 years old I

developed that relationship with no

which meant in my head that it it was

getting me closer to a a positive

outcome. Lots of kids don't have that

these these days cuz we shield them from

no. No is you know, seen as a

self-esteem hit. For me it was building

some kind of muscle in me. I don't know

but self-esteem on its own like

confidence without confidence is

madness.

It's madness. You you have to give the

world irrefutable proof you are who you

say you are, right? So you

release a comedy special whatever you

go, "Yeah, that's me. That's what I do.

The new tour, that's me. That's what I

do." It's it's irrefutable evidence,

right? I am who I say I am. And I think

that idea of going taking away the the

negatives, you can't just I mean I mean

you can but then I think we're I think

it's very cruel. I think we're being

kind on the wrong time scale

to people.

If you're kind, you want to be kind to

your kids, right? I want to be kind to

my kids. What do my kids want? Well,

they want McDonald's and they want ice

cream and they want to watch TV and play

video games. Well, okay, downstream are

some fat stupid kids.

Who wants fat stupid kids? No one. So

you have to be kind to their potential,

to who they're going to be, right? And

that involves

you know, broccoli and homework. And

they're

boring, going on a walk. Do some

exercise. Nah.

Okay, but but you're being kind later.

And I think that it's very easy to see

that when you're a parent.

Uh and it's hard to see that with an

18-year-old that's maybe struggling.

It ties to your point about being kind

to

you in 24 hours, I guess.

It's a similar thing, right?

Like like seeing the potential in in

someone. Seeing the potential in

yourself, in a child, in anyone. But

that in yourself. That's kind of the

thing of going, "Well, you could be

incredible in 20 years' time."

Cuz really that thing of like it's it's

the um I suppose what's the what's the

opposite of gratitude?

It's resentment.

And who had the great line? Nietzsche

had the great line on resentment.

He said, "If you think someone's ruined

your life, you're right.

It's you."

Like that's a mic drop, isn't it?

That's such a great line.

And you know, gratitude is the cure for

that. There's a There's a great

definition of entitlement.

Uh

which is

where you are now and where you want to

be. If you want to do something about

it, that's ambition.

Where you are now, where you want to be,

if you think that's someone else's

problem,

that's entitlement.

And I think if we're honest,

there's always a little bit of that

going on. Like there's a lot of people

in my industry that

would you know, their their career isn't

where they think it should be. And ah, I

need to get a new agent.

Really?

You know, that might be the problem.

I remember there's a great story of uh I

wasn't there, but uh David Tell

is sort of the comedians' comedian. Is a

works out in New York late night. Uh

he's I mean, really one of the greats.

One of the one of the most influential

voices in comedy. And these guys

backstage were like moaning about their

management.

And he's kind of overhearing this

conversation. It's going on for far too

long.

And he just he went "Ooh,

be funnier."

Often very simple. That stoic thing of

going, what's the thing you're meant to

be doing? Just do that.

I'm not sure I approve of portfolio

sort of uh working.

The idea of having lots of different

things that you do. Because really

you're going to do comedy part-time?

What are you going to do half comedy and

half

novel writing? Oh, so you're going to

compete?

I'm doing 100% of the time, and you

think you can compete 50% of the time.

All the best. I see how you do.

You're never going to get to the top of

the pyramid doing it 50% of the time,

right? Yeah. And there'll probably be a

lot of resentment and as you say,

entitlement.

Be you know, be a be a specialist.

It's one of the favorite parts of my

previous conversation that I had with

you where you where you talk about the

world doesn't need more people that are

[ __ ] in physics. And it really helped me

understand a lot of things. I also then

shortly after met Richard Branson in New

York, and he's the most you know,

incredible delegator. He's not trying to

get good at things that he's not good

at. He's built his whole business and

life on realizing what he's [ __ ] at

and just handing that over to other

people. Whereas so many people are

fighting to polish something that

they're

not so good at. Yeah. I think knowing

who you are is quite important for that,

isn't it? It's like being honest about

it. Like, well, I'm not good at that,

but I can do this.

It's hard to know who you are, though.

Clouded by who you want to be.

Yeah, it's well, yeah, it's it's also

that thing of uh it takes a bit of time.

I'm not sure whether we're not kind of

rushing people on that a little bit.

I'm I I would so often think of like the

listeners to this show, right? It's a

like so the certainly the younger ones

have kind of going, well, do I need to

know now

who I am and what I want to do? Exactly.

It's like, no, you could you know, try a

few different things if you like. Cuz I

think that thing when you get into the

stream that you're meant to be in, it

just feels very easy.

It's like you're not you're not you know

swimming against the tide.

It just feels like it's carrying you

along.

I

love what I do now, but I often question

whether I should go be like a DJ or do

musical theater or something. It What's

that?

Do What? I can answer that question for

you. That's a bit of luck. No.

No, YOU [ __ ] SHOULDN'T.

WHAT WHAT?

You think you maybe should do musical

theater?

What?

Are you having a panic attack?

What?

What are you talking about?

What would make you think that? I I

bought some DJ equipment and I spent

about a year learning and I thought I

[ __ ] love doing this. Great, YOU'VE

GOT A HOBBY.

YOU'VE GOT A HOBBY. NOT EVERYTHING'S A

BUSINESS.

I KNOW IT'S Diary of a CEO and

everything you do you think, "Oh, maybe

we can make a few quid out of this." No,

stop it.

What are you talking about?

You know who's You know who's being a DJ

right now? There's someone right now in

their bedroom, they've been there for 12

hours already today and they're just

loving it and they're putting everything

into it. They're putting the work you

put into the podcast into DJing.

Let them have that.

It's nice to have stuff where you're in

a flow state in life. And for some

people that's work and for some people

that's a hobby. And And some Some of us

are very lucky and we get to do it in a

few different things. So, I play a

little bit of tennis.

I don't think I'm going to get the wild

card at Wimbledon this year.

There, I've given up on that. It's just

a hobby.

And listen, I mean you might be the next

Calvin Harris. I might be steering you

in the wrong direction. You might be

incredible, but stop it.

Stop it. Just do this.

This is great. This is enough.

This is lovely. You're talking to the

most interesting people, I mean, present

company accepted, but you you know, you

speak to all these different people from

different worlds and it's it's

it this is enough, right?

How do you know if it isn't enough?

Well, I I want to talk to you about

quitting cuz there's going to be a

cohort of people that listen to them. I

meet them. I met a lot of them last

night at a show I was doing and they are

working in finance and they'll tell me

their job, then they'll show me their

hobby on their phone and their face

lights up when they show me their I

don't know, their papier-mache business

or whatever it is on their phone.

great line? It's the uh you know, if you

if you want to find out what you should

do in life,

what do you think about all the time?

That's your God.

What working in the city with a shirt

and tie on at JP Morgan or something?

No, but no one's thinking about that all

the time. You know, so what what do you

What do you think about all the time?

What do you What are you engaged in all

the time? Like if it's if it's football,

if you're absolutely obsessed by

football, well, something in that

industry is going to be the job for you

because you're obsessed by that and

that's what you think about all the

time. So, the um the idea of quitting

Quitting is quite interesting

because

all the things that you won't do.

Like if you're going to have an

interesting life,

you can't have all the other interesting

lives you would have had, right? So,

there's all the counterfactuals of the

different sliding doors that you could

have done. Like, well, you know, if

you're going to be an Olympian,

you're going to have to give up an awful

lot of stuff. Like, you're not really

going to have a childhood in the

traditional sense, but you're going to

be an Olympian. Great. And if you're if

you're going to be an academic, then

you're probably not going to be

have to go to as many parties. Okay,

well, that's you know, there's there's

no solutions, only trade-offs.

You know, Thomas Sowell, isn't it?

You have to make a lot of trade-offs

because not only you know, are you on

the road 300 days a year, but you have

so much opportunity. There's so many

things being offered to you to do

movies. Why don't you try and be an

actor or why don't you write five more

books or why don't you do I don't know,

a comic comical musical or whatever it

might be. Why don't you become a DJ?

DJ and musical theater, those are my two

prime loves. Um yeah, I mean, there's

there's a few There's not as many as you

would think. I don't No one's banging

down my door saying, "Do you want to be

in a movie?" Um

and I don't know if I'd be I don't know

if I'd be great at that. I don't know.

I I mean, listen, I like getting out of

my comfort zone and, you know,

opportunities come along and sometimes,

you know, you get offered a TV show that

you go, "Oh, I'll give it a go. Why

not?" Um I think sticking to what you

do, that stoic thing has really

paid dividends. That really has paid

off.

And I think you have to listen to that.

You know, and I see other comics, you

know, mentioning no names, there's some

great stand-up comics that were like

absolutely amazing and they're doing

five other things now

and they've lost a yard of pace.

And for me, that feels crazy. Like

you've cuz I'm looking at it going,

you've got the best job in the world.

Why are you allowing yourself to be

distracted?

Because ultimately, it's going to be

hard work.

You know, ultimately, I mean, people can

see it, I suppose, that the, you know,

something costs more, like a

a Ferrari costs a lot of money cuz a lot

of work goes into it, right? There's a

lot of work goes into that thing. That's

a, you know, the beautiful handmade a

Louis Vuitton thing is it's going to be

expensive because a lot of work went

into it. People understand that. I sort

of feel the same about shows.

You go see a show and you go, "Wow, that

really took some time."

Every single line in that is brilliant.

He's not wasting any time. It's no

There's no fat. It's just

it's a lot of work.

When people look at you and they look at

successful individuals, they think, "Oh,

they just must be innately motivated in

some way that I'm not."

Why do you think that's it's slightly

unfair that we think about luck

in a very

fixed way, right? So,

a Barbie and Oppenheimer are great to

talk about this, right? So, people see

Margot Robbie and they go, "Well, she's

just lucky, right? She was born she's

that beautiful, right?" She's so

beautiful people can't see how good an

actress she is, right? People just can't

cuz she's just like sort of this

stunning thing.

And and you look Oppenheimer, right? No

one thinks, "Oh, he's so lucky born with

an IQ of 170."

A- and born with a work ethic.

Because a work ethic is heritable,

right? So, he was born

incredibly clever and an incredible work

ethic, right? And no one thinks of him

as being lucky, but they think of her as

being lucky.

Weird

thing, right? That's odd.

In the our perception of of luck and how

much is how much is your factory

settings.

You know that this it's always I talked

to you about this before, but it's

always like some some [ __ ]

If someone's very successful, you either

go wow, incredible talent, or oh, he

worked so hard. No.

Always both together.

Always both together.

And or like you said earlier, maybe a

bit pathological in some way, which I

don't know whether you put Again,

again, you put the pathological, the

work ethic, the the striving,

a lot of that is heritable.

You know, so what are you what are you

going to do? I think when you when you

see luck in that way, I think you become

much more forgiving.

Of

okay.

It's quite crazy this idea of luck. I've

I've been thinking a lot about it

lately. I was reading some stories about

even the asteroid hitting earth if it

had been a minute later than the

dinosaurs would still be here and the

story of Nagasaki and Hiroshima being

bombed because one guy went to Kyoto 20

years earlier and he really liked it, so

he told President Truman not to bomb it.

And if he hadn't been on holiday there

with his wife, then Kyoto would have

been hit with by the nuclear bomb and

then they went over Kokura, I think a

city in Japan and that had a cloud, so

they so [ __ ] it, we'll go bomb Hiroshima

and 100,000 people over there lost their

lives. And every generation that would

have come lost You think these tiny

little things that are going on in the

world at all times kind of like this

this idea of the butterfly effect are

shaping our world and it can make you

feel a little bit powerless in some way

because if I'm the you know, if if

someone's holiday can be the difference

between me being alive or dead, Yeah.

it's uh you know, That's very difficult

to you know, we we always you know,

think about the first order effects of

what we do, not the second and third

order effects. Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean,

that's a that's a lot to that's a lot to

take in.

With this idea of luck in mind,

personal responsibility seems to sit on

the other side of the conversation of

luck, which is how much can I control

where I'm going in my life? How much

control do I have? How much should I

show up and [ __ ] fight for positive

outcomes? Yeah, well, that's agency. You

you should you should strive to have the

locus of control

within yourself.

Like, so there's there's character and