They just don't have the education. So

our own doctors do not have enough

education is something that we do a

third of our lives. If you are waking up

in the middle of the night and it's been

happen to you over and over again to

resolve the habit, you're going to have

to

[Music]

sleep. It's a thing that we all do every

day, but for some reason in our society,

it's still a little bit of a mystery.

How many hours should we be sleeping?

What is sleep debt? Is there a perfect

sleep routine? Should I wake up at a

certain time? Why do I get sleep

paralysis, insomnia? Why do I have these

dreams? My next guest, Stephanie

Ramoski, worked with NASA and Harvard

Medical School to understand these

questions. Stephanie currently works as

a sleep physiologist, helping people

cure and understand their insomnia and

sleep disorders. So, without further

ado, my name is Steven Bartlett and this

is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is

listening, but if you are, then please

keep this to yourself.

[Music]

Stephanie,

the first question I wanted to ask you,

and I've got millions and millions of

questions to ask you because this is a a

topic which I, as I said before we

started chatting on air, um has really

piqu an interest over the last three

years. I've never had so many of my

friends in my sort of close circle ask

me questions about sleep, send me

articles about sleep. And I don't know

what's happened, but as a nation and as

a as a species, I think we've got really

really curious about this idea of sleep

and also its importance. The first

question I wanted to ask you was how

important sleep is. But I think a better

way to understand that and the answer is

to actually look at the consequences

you've seen in your line of work um for

people that have bad sleep or that have

insomnia. Um so could you speak to that

a little bit?

I can. That's a big big question. Um,

what I have seen over the last 16 years

of my career is not people coming in

dying because they aren't sleeping or uh

with really really significant

illnesses. I've seen people very

anxious, very stressed, very low because

their sleep is poor and they are

extremely worried about it. And I've

seen people who are, you know, at the

top of their game and doing really well

in life but are completely crippled by

these sleep problems. But it is the fear

of bad things, worse things happening to

them that is keeping them as stressed

and upset as they are. So it's quite

interesting because I think the the

things that bring people to me to get

their sleep treated are exactly that

that fear is actually what I'm trying to

alleviate rather than um fixing their

sleep because I think they're going to

get so sick that something terrible is

going to happen to them.

Um so it's a really interesting question

to ask. How does sleep affect us? The

reality is we actually we or why do we

sleep? We don't know actually why we

sleep. We know what happens when we

don't sleep. But I think we're getting

very very confused between those of us

that struggle with sleep and those that

are actively depriving themselves of

sleep like the CEO who says, "I'll sleep

when I'm dead," for example.

Sure. Um, but you know, those of us who

are actively trying to sleep when we

can't and we will do anything and we we

we make our sleep opportunities larger

and we still can't get sleep. We're not

depriving ourselves of sleep. We're

doing anything we can to get sleep. So,

I I worry about the amounts out there

about sleep at the moment and the way

that it's the information is being

disseminated because I think that's

where we're going a bit wrong and all

the tracking of sleep and all the tech

that comes out. I'm not saying it's it's

a bad thing. I'm just saying that it's

almost like we haven't quite caught up

with all the information that we have

and we can't cope with it quite the way

we need to. So you you speak about the

tech that we have now, Apple watches,

all these little, you know, smart

devices that are telling us how many

hours a day we're sleeping. And also,

there's, you know, books. There's

probably a couple books on the shelf

behind me about the perfect night's

sleep or the perfect morning routine or

the perfect time to wake up. Where is

the [ __ ]

Oh my god. Again, another massive

question. Um, there is so much of it.

It's it's all it's so nuanced. you're

going to have to ask me some specifics

because there is so much there that

actually is I mean well the first thing

the biggest thing I would say is you

know going to bed at exactly the same

time every night dictating your bedtime

is probably the worst piece of advice

I've ever heard and sends people off on

all sorts of different tangents which

does not help if anything it makes their

insomnia worse because they go to bed in

the dark not able to sleep getting more

anxious heart rate going up

what should they do instead

stay up until they're sleepy. Don't

worry about it. Enjoy yourself. Relax.

Do the things that you probably don't

get time to do because you're busy doing

all the other things during the day.

Is the problem I have with that

approach, which is the approach that I

think I've adopted maybe a little bit

too much or incorrectly is if I stayed

up doing the things that I want to do.

What happens is I'll stay up till 7 a.m.

just looking at YouTube videos and

learning about rockets and looking at

like stocks to invest in and stuff.

That's that's me to a tea. At some point

I have to put my laptop down and be like

Steve just you're going to feel awful

tomorrow if you carry on looking at this

investment fund that you think is

interesting.

Yeah absolutely to to a degree you can I

mean we can manipulate our bodies to do

anything in a lab I could manipulate

your body to sleep when I wanted it to

sleep. Um but that's taking away all the

environmental factors all the behavioral

factors of your life.

Um and what you're doing now you know

what it's not the end of the world. You

know you're obviously coping with it and

you're healthy. Um the problem is you

probably won't be able to sustain that

and unfortunately we are built in such a

way that kind of goes with the the light

dark cycles on this planet. Um and so to

a degree you are sort of going against

that and unfortunately we've got lots of

other we've got lots of research showing

that after a while you just can't do

that forever without implication.

Um so it's not I mean if you think about

it insomnia is just a different pattern

of sleep. You've just trained your brain

to sleep differently and you're still

surviving with it. It's just that most

of us don't like that because it's not

the rest of society in the way that

they're sleeping. Um, and our friends

are sleeping and and and it feels like

we're the only ones awake in the night.

I bet if you didn't have all those

things to do and you weren't the way you

were and you were up at night and

everybody else around you is asleep, it

would start to feel like a very lonely

um, anxious place. We're not very

rational at night. We're not really made

to think in the middle of the night. So,

we're not incredibly rational. So, I

don't think it's the end of the world

what you're doing. But at the same time,

put it this way, I treat a lot of

entrepreneurs when they've retired and

they're still fairly young but not in a

good place because they have not

followed anything that was fairly going

along with what our physiological

processes want to do. Our bodies are all

about regulation. We have clocks in

every cell in every part of our body.

Um, and they like regulation. They like

time. They like the timing of things to

be ready. um and and regular. And when

we keep changing those goalposts, it

might seem like we're being uber

flexible, but actually the reality the

reality is is that later on down the

line, you'll probably find that you

won't be able to cope with it as much.

And how how how does that manifest

itself for me? So

So for you, if you just carried on the

way you were, then unfortunately, yeah,

we probably would see that um maybe you

were getting less sleep than you needed.

Um it probably would be harder for you

maybe when you settled into a routine

where you were working at around the

same hours every day. Say you got a

certain kind of uh role that you had to

do which made you know you had to have a

certain schedule. You might find it

quite difficult after a while to stick

to that schedule. Um you might find that

you aren't able to sleep as much as you

want. The duration and the quality will

be impaired. And so you might start all

the research around sleep and and how

important it is for you. You might start

noticing things like your cognitive

abilities are less. So your memory,

things like that. Um your ability to uh

produce cytoines, so the proteins that

help us with um uh keeping ourselves

healthy and uh keeping uh inflammation

at bay and things like that, all those

kind of things will be reduced. your

healing. So when you go and weight

training or something like that or you

go to the gym and you want your muscles

to repair, they're not going to be able

to do that so well. And of course that

over time, short term, it's not a

problem. Over time, long term, that's

when we start worrying about more

significant illnesses and um disorders

that are happening as we get older. And

so that's why we see lots of research

showing that as we get older, maybe some

of these things like Alzheimer's might

be related to how we treated our sleep

when we were younger. However, I hate

it. I hate mentioning things like that

because I think it frightens people. And

the problem is with frightening people

is that they go into what they think is

most logical things to do. So, they

might go away after this podcast and

think, "Oh my god, I've just got to go

away and get my 8 hours because the rest

of the information is telling them out

there that they've got to get this 8

hours of sleep every night." Um, and of

course, they can't just get that. You

can't dictate to your body how it

sleeps. There is a process. It follows

it. And so, unfortunately, you can never

force yourself to sleep. You can force

yourself not to sleep. And that is

partly how you fix a sleep problem, but

you can never force yourself to sleep.

But you can induce anxiety and stress

and depression through that and lack of

sleep. So yeah,

in um well if you're an expert in this

field so you must as you kind of spoke

to there you must get pretty I can feel

it when you're speaking get pretty

pissed off when you see unhelpful

information um being pushed on I don't

know social media or online or through

books these sort of simplified

narratives. What are some of the most um

common misconceptions that you speak to

your patients about? You mentioned one

there about this like eight hours of

sleep being the optimal. Yeah. And even

when I put out on my Instagram earlier,

what are the key questions you want to

ask? Um I'm speaking to a sleep

therapist expert today. Um I'd say the

vast majority or at least the medium

question was uh do I need to get exactly

seven or eight hours sleep

every single night? Um yeah, so that is

definitely the biggest one we get. Um

you do not that perfection is the enemy

of the good. Have you ever heard that

term? Because at the end of the day it's

true. Yes, your body loves consistency

and regulation, but that does not mean

you have to get 8 hours of sleep every

night. Think about it differently. Think

about it over a month, for example. We

love this idea of the way the way we

look at time is slightly different to

the way your body looks at time. And

over a month, you might actually be all

right. So maybe one night you get six

and a half hours, the next night you get

seven and a half, and then the next

night you might get slightly different.

As long as it's fairly consistent and

maybe 80% of the time you're doing

fairly well and you're you're giving

yourself the right opportunity to sleep,

that's okay. Your body's going to do,

you know, it will do what it needs to

do. And and with that, a caveat to that

is this understanding of sleep debt. So,

we don't understand sleep debt properly.

People think it's an eye for an eye. I

lose 4 hours, I must gain 4 hours. Well,

what happens when your body being as

efficient as it is doesn't actually need

you to gain an extra 4 hours of sleep to

recover you? your expectation is that it

should. And when your expectation

doesn't get met, you get upset about it

and you change your behavior. And that's

when you start getting sleep problems.

When the reality is your brain is so

smart that even in the certain amount of

hours that you get normally at night, it

can recover you from that sleep

deprivation by just improving or

increasing the sleep stage that it

thinks you missed the most, for example.

But because we have a lack of education,

we believe we don't get some sleep, we

need to regain that sleep. And when we

don't regain that sleep, that's when the

anxieties and the stresses over not

sleeping start. So that's a big one, the

sleep debt one. The other one is this

idea that fatigue and sleepiness are the

same things. So yes, when we don't sleep

well, we get a lot of fatigue. So

fatigue is anything from feeling like

your body needs to rest to needing to

shut your eyes to pain to your brain

buzzing because you've been working so

hard for like 48 hours straight and you

don't know what to do with yourself. But

the only definition of sleepiness is the

ability to shut your eyes and within a

few minutes you're falling asleep. So if

you were saying to me right now, Steph,

I am so so sleepy. I'd probably say to

you, well, you don't look it

because right now you don't look tired

in the way that I would expect you to be

falling asleep. I mean, you wouldn't be

able to sit still. You you would be sort

of probably your eyes would be shutting

all the time, dozing off, having little

micro sleeps. That's sleepiness. And

that's what we should really be

understanding as a cue to sleep. So in

the evenings, if you're not feeling

that, then don't be don't be worried.

Give yourself permission to stay up

later because you can't dictate what

happens to you during the day. And there

are so many variables that affect your

sleep. You are never going to be able to

control of them. Having good sleep

hygiene. How many good sleepers do you

know have it? So good sleep hygiene is

all these things that we get told we

should do. So, the 10 top things that

you should do, have a warm bath, never

drink coffee ever again, um never have

alcohol, you know, all these things that

you're supposed to do. But if you look

at good sleepers, are they following all

those things? No, they're not. And

they're still sleeping really well. And

that's to show that most of the time

sleeping poorly comes down to brain

training and the patterns we get

ourselves into. you start going to bed

early, you might be able to get to sleep

earlier, but you're probably not going

to be able to uh have that sleep all the

way through the night because at some

point or another, your body's going to

be like, "Well, you've had enough now."

But your expectation is you should be

able to sleep till 7 and why didn't I

sleep till 7:00? Or if you lie in, you

keep changing the goalpost of your wake

up time, which is the most important

thing that you should be looking at, not

your bedtime. Um, if you keep changing

that goalpost, your body doesn't know

when to feed you. It doesn't know when

to make you feel alert because you

you've changed everything. And so, of

course, you're not going to be sleepy at

the right time in

the time you wake up is the the a much

more important time to be focused on.

Yes. The things your morning routine is

going to be way more important than your

evening routine when it comes to your

sleep at night. But be-c because people

see that as a far away time compared to

when you go to sleep, they don't really

focus on it. In fact, haven't we been

taught in this society that lying in is

a luxury? I can't believe that we have

made it okay at the weekend to lie in so

much, but during the week, one of the

only things that gets us up is work. It

makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm not

saying it's the worst thing in the

world. I'm not saying I never lie in,

but I don't use it as a compensatory

method for a bad night's sleep because

that's when you're going to get into

trouble

cuz that's kind of throwing your your

your schedule off. Is that what you're

saying? Yeah. So if you lie in on the

weekends and you're going to pay for it

at some other point, right?

Yeah. Why are we not looking, you know,

if you have to lie in so significantly

every single weekend, why are we not

looking at during the week and thinking,

why am I doing this to myself at the

time when I need it the most, I will

choose to get less sleep and then at the

weekend I'll just compensate.

And people and you much of the

conversation around sleep in society

talks about the amount of hours and it's

almost like the amount of hours that I

was in the bed. M

um what what's your sort of rebuttal to

that? Cuz

quality over quantity every single time.

Every single time. And if you have good

quality and you need longer, your body

will tell you and you will get more

sleep. But people are so obsessed with

duration. And I I think people don't

understand what I mean by sleep

opportunity. I mean every single night,

most of the time, so about 80% of the

time, I will give myself a 7 to eight

hour sleep opportunity, sleep window.

But I do not mean that if I'm not

sleepy, I take myself into a dark room

and shut myself down. I just know that

it's there. I've got a bedroom, a place

I really want to be to sleep that is

available to me during those hours and I

will not sleep outside those hours. And

that's the that is the big thing is you

can dictate to your body when you don't

sleep but you cannot dictate when you

do. And by doing that you will force

your body to be in a nice regular cycle.

It's actually really really simple once

you know how to do it. And every time I

fix someone of their insomnia there and

honestly 50 60 years of insomnia they

often turn around to me they're like I

don't know why I wasn't taught this um

when I was younger. And I do believe if

we taught everyone how to sleep

properly, give them a proper sleep

education when they're little, I

wouldn't exist. Insomnia wouldn't exist.

You talked there when you referenced

your own bedroom. I think you you spoke

about it quite lovingly. Should I have

this place I like to sleep? How

important is that? How important is it

to sleep in the same place and for that

space to be is there a certain way I

should be designing my bedroom? Is there

like a bed that's good or like a pillow?

You know, because there's lots of fads

around.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of fads

around. I think your environment is

important, but I can't dictate to you

what that is because we're all so

different. Um, yes, it's true. You don't

need loads of technology in your bedroom

to sleep. I'm not saying technology

can't aid our sleep because I think in

the future we're going to come up with

some crazy cool things that are going to

really help us. I just think right now

we're not quite there.

I think the least you have in your

bedroom that remind you of the day is

really important. So obviously screens

and light uh is very important when it

comes to sleep. But I think people miss

are missing a trick when when we say

don't look at your phones. We're not

just saying don't look at your phones

because of the light exposure. We're

saying it because it's reminding your

brain of something that you did during

the day. And so your brain being the

smart thing that it is is thinking okay

well I'll um I'll I'll I'll increase

your cortisol and I'll reduce your

melatonin which is your stress and your

sleepy hormone uh hormones. um and I'm

going to help you be more alert because

you clearly want to be alert right now.

And so your brain thinks it's helping

you. And then you're thinking, hang on a

minute, I just looked at my phone for

like 3 seconds and now I'm buzzing. Why?

And it's just because your brain is your

your behavior is so much more

influential on your physiology than you

realize.

What do you think about the snooze

button?

Um I think if you have to use it on a

regular basis, you need to start

questioning why you always need to

snooze. Unfortunately, the research

shows that snoozing does not benefit us

at all. And actually, if you think about

it, if if if you are a snoozer, you

know, how many times does it actually

make us feel better?

Doesn't

Exactly.

delays.

Sorry.

No, I I think it's nonsense as well. I

did I one of my modules when I was doing

psychology in school was about sleep and

um understanding the different phases of

sleep made me realize that the snooze

button is I think totally pointless

because it's you have to be in a certain

phase of sleep for you to get real

benefits and

within 15 minutes it's get to that phase

right

absolutely

um a lot of people when they you know

when they knew that I was speaking to

you today um they want to know how they

can sleep better in the short term

tonight

they're looking for some kind of quick

fix to the to a problem they've had for

a long time.

What would you say to those people?

Okay, so the first thing I'd say is that

you're never going to find that reactive

very quick method. It's never going to

happen. And even if you find it, I

promise you it won't work in the long

term. It might control your condition in

the short term, but not in the long

term. I can teach you how to re to

sleep, but it's going to take you a few

weeks, not a night. Um, but in the

meantime, don't worry. It's okay. like

part part of this is I just there is a

solution. So what I do is called

cognitive behavioral therapy for

insomnia. It is not the same as CBT for

depression or anxiety or anything else.

Um and it is just about retraining

yourself to sleep and building up that

strong sleep drive. You have to do that

over time. Um but in the short term I

usually tell people that they do not

need to worry. Nothing bad is going to

happen to you. And the reality is that

it's more your mood that will affect

your day when you wake up in the morning

than the bad night's sleep you just had.

So I know we've got evidence to show

that when you have a bad night's sleep,

your cognitive abilities, etc. are going

to be um reduced. However, if you think

about how you generalize that, you're

not you're not going to lose your job.

You're not going to perform horrifically

in that meeting because you didn't get a

good night's sleep. It would be far

better for you to go to bed later and

make sure you're lovely and sleepy and

only get four hours than to go to bed 8

hours before that meeting and toss and

turn and be fidgety and stressed and

anxious all night. That's what I do. I

still get nervous when I have to do like

a lecture in front of 500 people. Of

course, I get nervous, but instead of,

you know, focusing on my notes just

before I go to bed, I'll put everything

aside. I'll go and enjoy myself, do

something I really love to do. I'll get

ready for bed a bit earlier than usual,

just so that I do not have to think

about anything when I get sleepy. And

when I am sleepy, even if it's 2 3 4

hours later than usual, I know that I'll

go and have a really lovely 3 or 4 hours

sleep. And then I'll wake up and I'll be

like, great. I know I'm going to be a

bit sleepy today, but that's only going

to help me sleep tonight

and I'm going to have an epic day. I

don't care that I'm a bit sleepy.

Sleepiness is amazing. Sleepiness is

such a good thing for you. Why are we

teaching people that sleepiness is a bad

thing? You need sleepiness to sleep.

I've got two questions there. The first

I'm sure is it feels like a very um

related sort of question to what you've

just been talking about there, which is

do you sleep well? I'm sure you get

asked this all the time at every party,

every time you It's like asking a

comedian to tell a joke, right?

It's like, how is your sleep?

Okay, so most of the time my sleep is

fairly good because I've been lucky

enough to be educating myself through

this for the last 16 years. But it's not

good all the time because it's totally

normal after some kind of life stressor,

new illness, some dramatic change in our

society like we're seeing right now

for your sleep to change and for it to

be poor. Okay, it is totally normal to

have sleep problems. We will all get

them. You will never find someone who

does not have a sleep problem at some

point in their lives. But there is a

difference between somebody who has a

short-term sleep problem. And when the

initial issue resolves itself, the sleep

problem goes away and the person who has

now unfortunately got a long-term sleep

problem.

The difference is the behavior. It is

not the person. It is not some trait

that you have over someone. It's not

something genetic. There are there are

all of those things that do feed into,

for example, insomnia. But the reality

is the thing that seems to perpetuate

sleep problems is not usually the

original trigger. So we cannot blame the

divorce. For example, 20 years ago, I'm

not divorced, but I'm just making an

example. So 20 years ago, we get

divorced and it's a really stressful

situation and it stops you sleeping for

a month. Okay? But now you're remarried

and you're perfectly happy, but you've

got a 20 year insomnia problem. We

cannot blame the divorce for that

anymore. And also somebody else who's

gone through the same situation, same

illness or divorce or new medication

would not have had that sleep problem 20

years later. So what is it? And I

believe and we know that most of it is

your behavior. After a few weeks of a

sleep problem, most people will freak

out and they'll start changing their

behavior. So they might start lying in,

they might start going to bed early.

that's trying desperately to improve

their sleep opportunity because they

believe the mere act of lying in a bed

for longer is going to miraculously give

them a stronger sleep drive and make

them get through whatever it is they

need to get through when the reality is

and this is usually how we treat

insomnia or one of the ways we actually

deprive you of your sleep opportunity.

So we don't deprive you of sleep but we

do deprive you of your sleep

opportunity. So we only allow you to be

in bed for a certain amount of time and

that fixes it. That's frightening

because with teaching people that sleep

is so bad or not sorry not sleep is so

bad but sleepiness is so bad that they

don't feel that they can build up that

strong sleep drive without something

terrible happening to them. So the way

we are disseminating knowledge right now

is not working and we have got to find a

way to change that.

You talked about the the type of therapy

you offer cognitive behavioral therapy

for insomnia. One of the elements you've

described is this sleep deprivation

which is in essence you're stopping

people sleeping I'm guessing throughout

the day to focus them on their sleep

opportunity.

Um yes so it's less about restricting

their sleep and more about restricting

their bedtime. So often when you come

across somebody who's had a sleep

problem for a fair while enough to come

to see me they're usually spending more

time in bed than they are sleeping. So

for example, they might be in bed for

around 10 hours, but they're only

sleeping for say 6 hours. And so what I

would do is I would restrict them in the

first instance only. So it's only mildly

to 6 hours in bed because or 5 hours in

bed, whatever they're sleeping for. I

would we would we would never really go

lower than 5 hours because at the end of

the day, we're only um uh sort of guess

it's all a bit of guess work here. Um

and that's important that it's like that

and we're not overtracking sleep because

that's has its own issues. Um, and then

for a week or so, I'll keep them on that

schedule and try and get them to

strictly stick to it, which is quite

scary for somebody who thinks the total

opposite way is going to fix them. Even

though they've got no evidence that it

works, it doesn't matter. They've been

doing it for a long time. So, it's quite

hard to get someone to do this. And then

once we can get them to sleep for around

90% of that five or six hours, whatever

they spend in bed, then we can start

increasing their sleep time out very,

very slowly. But people sort of get very

overeager about this. It's called sleep

restriction therapy. Um or there's lots

of different ways of calling it. Um

people get over excited about it and

they're obsessed with reaching that 90%

efficiency so they can move on and add

time. But I try to always explain to

people and indeed I do online courses in

sleep that they can do themselves. And

I'm always trying to explain to them

it's not about adding more time. Imagine

if you are getting to 5 or 6 hours sleep

efficient every every night for 7 days

as an average. That's really good.

That's so much better than the broken

sleep you were getting before. Think

about the new quality that you have

built. How amazing is that? When's the

last time you went for a week and you

had that consistent sleep? And when they

start thinking about it that way,

they're like, "Oh my god, yes, this is

so much better. And I'm even able to add

more time now." And we slowly

incrementally start adding sleep out.

And that's how you fix it. I mean it's

not everything because you've got to

work on the mindset. You've got to work

on the re-educating people.

What are those other pieces of the

therapy? So mindset.

Yeah. You got to So first

one is the the sort of sleep restriction

as you called it.

Yeah. One area is you we need to you've

got to be re-educated on sleep much like

we've been chitchatting away today.

That's how I will talk to someone and I

will try to help them understand um I'll

try and pick out a lot of the things

that they talk to me about. Um, but it's

trying to help them understand where the

myths are and where the facts are with

sleep because a lot of their ideologies

around sleep will be directly

influencing their behavior. And so as

soon as you can change that and it it's

not as simple as just saying that's

right and that's wrong, you got to keep

doing it and they need to trust you and

and you've got to find a way and the

right language to speak to that person.

Once you've done that, you can start

with the sleep restriction. And then of

course, whilst there is no evidence that

relaxation or anxiety reduction is going

to directly and reactively fix a

long-term sleep disorder, after you've

started improving your sleep drive and

using the sleep restriction therapy to

do that, then yes, we do need to start

looking at how do you bring yourself

back to balance during the day. Is it

stress and anxiety that got you here in

the first place because you're working

too much and you got yourself into the

wrong patterns? How are you going to

process more during the day? How are you

going to balance more during the day? We

need to look at those things, but we

need to look at them with the right

expectations, which is that they are not

going to make you sleep because once

that expectation is not met, you feel

really inadequate and then you feel like

nothing can help you and then you get

hopeless and out of control and lonely

about your problem. So all this lots of

different sort of elements like a

pyramid to try and help someone with

their sleep

and you know people um c caffeine has

become a huge part of our you know we

live in a society where people take

caffeine to wake them up and then quite

often they'll take certain supplements

to shut them down again like sleep

supplements or um various nol I think is

one of them right I don't know

um what's your take on all of all of

these chemicals we're using to kind of

regulate our alertness and then our

tiredness

they they can't work over time. So, all

the research shows that eventually you

either get used to them, they stop

working, they make you feel really

uncomfortable. I don't think there's

anything wrong with, for example,

sleeping pills or using caffeine in the

short term, things like that. Um, but

starting to use them long term, they

have their own all of them have their

own side effects and over a long time of

use um aren't very good for the body.

Um, but in general, they're just not

going to they're not going to suddenly

miraculously reset your sleep button or

anything that people seem to think

they're going to do. So, I don't think

relying on these things in the short

term is a bad thing every now and again.

But, if you're relying on them every

single time you have a sleep problem,

you're effectively making it worse

because your brain isn't learning

anything. It is literally just being

giving a cheap method like a fake sleep

almost. And that is what you get from a

lot of sedatives is seditive sleep which

is not the same as the cycles that you

go through usually to sleep well. So

you're not getting but psychologically

we believe that sleep is better than no

sleep. And actually I don't necessarily

agree with that. In a way I'd rather get

no sleep than a really rubbish sleep

knowing that my body will like build up

a really strong sleep drive and help me

later. But people are so terrified of

that that they that psychologically they

just need to feel like they've slept.

But if they had a bit of better

education around sleep and they

understood how it worked more, then I

don't think people would be trying to

grab all these things all the time. But

we live in a reactive society. We're not

very proactive as creatures. We want we

want it now and we want it done

yesterday.

What about caffeine? That's such a huge

part of everybody's well pretty much

everybody's daily routine. People they

you know they'll say, "I have to have

this coffee to wake myself up.

I have three or four of them a day." And

then what impact does that end up having

on sleep?

So caffeine is very interesting because

genetically we are all either sensitive

or not sensitive or somewhere in between

with caffeine. So it's very hard to say

nobody should be drinking caffeine after

this time. Yes, it does have a very sort

of it's a it has a big afterlife. So it

it definitely or halflife. So what we

mean by that is that um you know it's

going to have an effect on you hours and

hours after you've had it. But depending

on how sensitive you to your to it you

are, you know, but at the same time,

there's so much more you can do. If you

started waking up at the same time every

day, you would start to feel refreshed.

You would be one of those people who

wakes up and is like, "Yeah, I'm ready

to start the day." Imagine if you just

used your body the way it was designed

to be used. I'm not saying caffeine is

bad. I definitely wouldn't say you can't

drink caffeine, but if you're starting

to use it, anything in life in anything

chemical in a in a compensatory method

because something is wrong, that's when

you need to start questioning it. But in

general, having caffeine in the morning,

I don't think there's anything wrong

with that. If you enjoy it, great. But

then there's lots of research that shows

that even your performance isn't

significantly improved by having

caffeine. You might feel like you're

able to buzz around everything more, but

your actual efficiency isn't necessarily

improved. I I I wonder, you know,

because I think I was looking at some

stats around insomnia and sleep sleep

disorders, and the stats are pretty

staggering, and

I don't know how to say this, but I just

don't tend to believe that humans after

all these thousands of years of

evolution have been born with quite an

apparent or seemingly apparent um

problem with sleep. So it makes me

think, okay, so what is it in our social

environment and society that's making us

struggle with sleep? Is it our over

obsession with the perfect sleep? That

might be one element. And this, you

know, and all the fear and anxiety

around not sleeping perfectly as you've

described and we're actually doing

pretty good,

right? And labeling ourselves as

insomnia, you know, cuz that word I'm an

insomniac or I've got insomnia is thrown

around pretty easily.

Absolutely. Or is it the, you know, the

tech in our lives? Is it the the the

over stimulation of the, you know, the

technology we have? Is it overwork?

What's your take on that? Cuz I I feel

the same about depression and anxiety as

well. I I look at the stats growing over

time um in with various sort of mental

um illnesses. And I think surely we

weren't born um with chemical imbalances

as is um said in um yeah

I love them.

Yeah. I so it's a hard question to

answer. I think that there is element

there's lots of different elements. I

don't believe that the stats are as

accurate as they probably seem. for

example, I believe that before, you

know, the industrial revolution, for

example, we had um sleep problems. I I

mean I no, I do I believe we did. It's

just that I believe we're recording

things now more. So, there's that aspect

of it. There is this aspect of we over

worry about things and you know, at the

end of the day, whilst someone keep you

know, lots of people out there keep

telling us that actually um you know, if

you sleep less than 6 hours, you will

die early, but actually we're not

actually seeing that.

Someone asked me that today. They said,

How much am I reducing my life

expectancy with my poor sleep?

The thing is, okay, so if you know

you've got poor sleep, you need to

improve it, but hopefully it's not going

to be long term. You can actually get

some support for that and get it sorted.

If you're actively keeping yourself at 5

hours when you know you're a 7-hour

sleeper, then yeah, you're going to

reduce your life expectancy. But if

you're naturally a 5hour sleeper and

they do exist then that does not mean

the same thing that you're going to be

reducing your life expectancy when they

genetically you can't you know that's

for you. Um it's really difficult to

understand. I think um you know

electricity has a big part to play. So

again I talked a little bit briefly at

the beginning about the light dark

cycles of this planet and the way that

we are designed well not designed but

you know we're built on this planet. We

we seem to have evolved that way. Um,

and so we we we definitely do need to be

in general not uh working and resting

more at night and we we work better. Our

metabolisms, our brains function, we're

more rational during the day. Um, and so

with electricity has become many

problems. I definitely think the

scareongering and the fear and the

tracking of sleep has definitely caused

in the last few years a boom in sleep

problems or at least how many people are

coming to us for help

and with the the pandemic. What impact

has that had on people's sleep? Hu let's

talk about hu for a second. I've spent a

lot of time on this podcast talking

about the ready to drink Hu bottles

which are my favorite for convenience

reasons. It means I don't have to mix

anything. But this week, as my goals in

gym and in my health and in my physique

have started to evolve, I've started

using a new product that I wanted to

tell you about. And the reason why I've

started using this product, which is

called Hule, the Black Edition, is

because there's 50% less carbs, 33% more

protein, um, zero artificial sweeteners,

and it's of course gluten-free. I wish I

had something like this to be honest

when I was a student because it's

literally £147

per meal. I think you get about 17 or 18

meals out of one bag. And if you're

someone like me that's in this phase of

my life that's trying to build a bit of

muscle, get a little bit more lean

whilst also, you know, reducing the

carbs a little bit, then give Black

Edition Hule a try and try the vanilla

flavor if you do get a chance cuz that's

um for me is the the tastiest flavor of

them all. And do you know what I'm gonna

do next week in the podcast? I'm gonna

take my top off. Okay? So, I'm gonna um

show you the impact that uh all of this

being a hu has had for me. You're going

to have to tune in next week and you're

going to have to watch it on YouTube to

see that. But um I'm going to show you

the the before and after of using Hule

and uh uh and before I used Hule. Okay.

So, that's something to look forward to.

Or maybe not. With the the pandemic,

what impact has that had on people's

sleep?

It's had a huge impact. So um in various

different ways. So the first way is that

everybody's routine changed um because

we couldn't go outside and move as much

as we once did. We couldn't get as much

light exposure as we once did. We didn't

get as much stimulation, social

stimulation. So our brains weren't being

used in the same way. Plus we all had

this sort of uh thing to look at on the

news all the time. So we're actively

sort of looking at something that is

stressing us out and making us anxious.

So various different components. No

wonder sleep changed. But it would have

been totally normal for that to happen.

Your sleep is adapting to your new

environment. And so when people start

worrying about this, I try to get them

to calm down about it because actually

if your sleep wasn't working properly,

you just wouldn't be here. Okay? So to a

degree, our sleep is doing a bloody good

job for us. Um and we need to be better

about it. We blame sleep for everything.

Um and actually there's so many other

variables that we can control in our

lives that will have an effect on us.

But yes, during the pandemic, we saw um

or we still see there's plenty more

problems with people struggling to get

to sleep. Maybe they're feeling really

buzzy and they can't get to sleep,

maintaining that sleep. So, people

waking up in the middle of the night and

they're just like, "Gh, what? Why am I

waking up?" Sometimes they they've got a

million thoughts a minute or um

sometimes they're just thinking of

nothing and they don't know why that's

happening. We've seen more dream recall,

very graphic dreams. Um, and we believe

that's because obviously when your

routine changes and you don't have to

work, and ironically I always say to

insomniacs that actually when they're

working and when they've got busy lives,

it's a lot easier to treat them than

when they don't have a routine because

routine is everything to our bodies. I

wish we understood more how much our

bodies love to be regulated. And going

to work and doing exercise and going to

see our friends and going to the gym and

eating at regular intervals is telling

your brain so many signals. The light

exposure you get is telling your brain

about how much melatonin to re release

for you. It's fascinating, but we do

need regulation. And the biggest thing

that changed during this pandemic was

our routines. Mhm. People people have a

real desire as well. You you mentioned

the the fact that the pandemic had

caused very like vivid dreams. People

have asked me so many times if they can

control their dreams or how do they stop

themselves dreaming so vividly or um and

some people having, you know, recurring

nightmares and things like that. What

what is your answer to that? What

control do we have on our dreams?

So you can you can learn to that's what

we call lucid dreaming. So you can learn

to lucid dream. The problem is it's

probably not very good for your sleep in

general. Um, so effectively when we

remember our dreams, it's because we

have been woken out of REM sleep. So REM

is actually a very active stage of

sleep. It's not your deep sleep. It's

actually quite a light stage of sleep.

Some might argue that's even a different

state of consciousness than not sleep at

all. So REM is a really strange time.

It's when we believe that more of our

memory and our psychological restoration

is happening and consolidation and

things like that. And part of REM, we

tend to have more uh graphic dreams, but

it's it's you being interrupted from

that state, which you may not remember

in the night. It could just be a van

driving past in your REM sleep, and it

wakes you into a lighter stage of sleep,

like stage one or two sleep. And so in

the morning, you think, "Oh my god, I

really remember my dreams." Or maybe

your alarm woke you up in the middle of

REM sleep, and you're like, "Oh my god,

I can really remember my dreams." As

opposed to the times when you're like,

"I didn't dream at all last night."

Well, of course you did dream. It's just

that your REM wasn't interrupted. So

that's why you're remembering your

dreams. When we try to control our

dreams, usually you have to kind of

control that interruption a bit. And so

um I haven't looked into it properly in

terms of lucid dreaming because it

doesn't really help me do my job. I

don't really want people to learn to

lucid dream because then one they're

going to be remembering their dreams

more. Um and if they're remembering

their dreams more, then their sleep is

more interrupted and that's not good for

your sleep. We want you to go through

the cycles of sleep as as uh you know as

comfortably as we can and so that you

get all the right percentages and all

the right restoration and and healing

and everything that you need from your

sleep. Um so yeah uh it's an interesting

concept. I don't think it's very helpful

to healthy sleep. Um but every now and

again especially kids I find when I'm

talking to children they seem to be able

to control their dreams a little bit

better like flying for example they

concentrate more on it that's why. So

they have more time and they concentrate

on it. Uh which is quite a fun thing.

Maybe we should all be doing more of

that daydreaming and stuff. It's

actually really good for problem

solving. Um so yeah, it's fascinating

and and and there's a lot of famous

people. I think Einstein though, don't I

mean I don't know if I'm right about

this, but Einstein and various other

geniuses would do things like hold a um

egg or or a spoon or something. Um so

that if and when they fell asleep that

spoon would drop and then they would

wake up because they felt they had all

their best ideas. I can see you looking

at me and thinking about doing this to

get better tonight and dropping it off

my bed.

But it's not very good for sleep to keep

interrupting it like that. Um, so you

can, yes, you've got the power to

manipulate sleep however you want, but

at the end of the day, if the goal here

is to keep you alive for longer and to

feel refreshed in the day and to have

your best ideas consistently and to be

healthy consistently, then you probably

want to do sleep right the way it was

designed.

And what about what I eat before I go to

bed? A lot of people talk about that.

That's another uh thing. You know, if I

order food really late, someone will

turn to me in the room and go, "Oh, you

shouldn't be eating at this time." You

know what I mean? What do I say to that?

Okay, you I've said it before, a good

sleeper does all the wrong things and

they seem to be okay, but they're

probably not doing all the wrong things

all the time. So, yes, the the later you

eat, you're basically asking your body

to metabolize and asking it to sleep and

it does not like doing both and so one

of them will be um compromised. Um in

terms of um anything that you can eat

that will have a significant effect on

your sleep, there's no real research. Um

there is research to show things like

you know if you if you eat enough

cherries or you have enough milk or

enough turkey it's going to give you

some kind of sedatory effect but at the

end of the day

it's you'd have to have a stupid amount

of those kind of foods to have any kind

of effect. It's not going to help you

sleep healthily from day to day. That's

not going to suddenly boost the quality

of your sleep um significantly. Um, so I

would argue that unless you have some

kind of deficiency in a vitamin or

mineral that is affecting your sleep,

then you probably don't need to be

looking at the food you eat. In general,

as I'm sure a lot of people will say,

but in general, eating a healthy

balanced diet where you have what you

would call naughty foods and good foods

in in balance, all that stuff is really

good for you. And probably the only

piece of advice I'd give around eating

is again regulating how you eat. So, if

it's breakfast, lunch, and dinner you

like to do, trying to do that at

consistent times every single day is

going to help your body understand when

you want to be awake and metabolizing

and when you want to be sleeping. And

then not sleeping too late at night just

so that you can make sure that your body

metabolizes well and sleeps well.

And can I sleep too much? Is that such a

people people there's this myth again in

society where people think that they

overslept and now they're knackered,

right?

Yeah. So you can it usually when people

say they've overslept if we actually

looked at them in a sleep study and

they've overslept for the amount that

they usually sleep and they didn't need

it probably the quality of their entire

sleep wouldn't be amazing. Um and that's

why they were able to have this dribble

drabby longer sleep and and and it's not

it's not going to be very helpful.

Usually when we're talking about that

research that shows that longer sleepers

actually can get sicker um is because

the quality of their sleep is impaired

by something like sleep apnnea or

another sleep disorder which is

impairing the quality of their sleep. So

which is poor quality.

Yeah. So poor quality sleep. You're

going to sleep longer. It's kind of the

same as having insomnia because you're

not really sleeping and so therefore you

feel you need to sleep longer and you

wake up and you still don't feel like

you've slept as much as you needed to.

If you're sleeping really well from

night to night, you don't need to sleep

more. So, your body won't really let

you. So, if the quality is good and

you've reached that optimal time, you'll

notice that if you do try to sleep

longer, it's quite if I looked at that

sleep for you in a polyomnography study.

So, I looked at your brain activity, the

quality of it is just like a snooze is

probably not going to be the same. It's

not going to be But it's very rare you

find someone like usually they're

deprived of something or other or they

haven't been sleeping properly and then

they sleep a bit longer. you you hear a

lot of um a lot of successful people I

think it's it's part of bragging you

know bragging about how little they

sleep they'll say I know you sleep 3

four hours a day and and I think it's

pushed this idea into society that in

order to be successful you've got to

sleep for you know just 2 or 3 hours or

4 hours or whatever but then on the

other side you have this total

contradiction which is in order to be

successful you need to wake up at 6 a.m.

and drink green juice and do yoga and

like sleep for exactly seven hours. Um,

and it and it I guess this kind of

speaks to the original point which was

um that there's so much

overgeneralization

and uh through an attempt to sell you

something whether it's a book or

um my authority or to get you to follow

me, I kind of preach this secret which

can be quite easily replicated for all

of you, right? that's causing us to be

like uh be smack like smacked with these

contradicting narratives around sleep.

Um which is making everyone a little bit

confused.

Um what's your sort of take on all of

that? Cuz you know, as when I was

growing up, I thought, you know, if I

want to be successful, I've got to just

sleep less. And I I I think, if I'm

being completely honest with myself,

I think I used to be proud of how little

I sleepd. I thought it was like more

like a badge of honor, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah, but now I think I'm getting

a little bit older and I'm I don't

really give a [ __ ] what people think.

Good. Good for you. Um uh so yeah, I I

definitely have seen a change around in

this recently, but yeah, there has this

been this thing about like clean

sleeping. It's a bit like the whole

clean eating thing. It's it's everything

that you've effectively just said. Um

but people trying to say you need to do

this that and that to have the perfect

night's sleep. Actually, that doesn't

really exist. Once you know how much

sleep you need around, make sure you

have that opportunity most nights that

you

How do I know though?

Um, so I guess

you referenced genetics. You said there

are 5 hour genetics.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess um a more

relaxed way of looking at it is when you

go on holiday after the 3 4 days of

recovery from you know work life um what

happens you know left to your own

devices what happens? Um that's a pretty

good way of looking at it. If you're

looking at a really scientific way, then

sleep restriction therapy. So, what we

would put a insomniac through also will

show you how much of a duration that you

need right now because there'll be a

point where you can't keep adding time.

Your body won't get you to 90% efficient

and that's where you know, okay, maybe

this is around the right time for me.

And sleep and mental health, I feel like

it's I don't know, my guess would be

that it's somewhat kind of a a cycle,

right? I think poor sleep might lead to

poor mental health and then poor mental

health might lead to poor sleep. Is that

accurate?

You're absolutely right. But it doesn't

matter what came first, the chicken or

the egg. The main issue is, especially

in medicine, and I've just done a piece

of research um that shows that

undergraduate um medical degrees only

teach a median of an hour and a half of

sleep. So this is why this next thing

happens a lot because they just don't

have the education. So our own doctors

do not have enough education in

something that we do a third of our

lives. So historically or traditionally

when you go to your GP and you say I've

got a sleep problem, they'll tell you

you've got depression and insomniacs

will be able to relate to this and it is

because in general we look at sleep or

poor sleep as a symptom of another

condition. Now even if it is even if you

do have a significant mental health

problem and it is causing you to have

sleep issues if it's been longer than 3

months you now have a entrained sleep

disorder and you need to be treating the

sleep problem as a primary condition of

in itself and the one that I would treat

first is whichever one is most

prevalent. So whichever symptoms seem to

be more distressing for you at the time

is where I would start. But I would be

fixing for example the depression and

the insomnia separately. And the results

show that when you treat insomnia you

have less relapse of depression because

you have actually resolved one of these

things that unfortunately was

perpetuating everything. So it doesn't

really matter where sleep comes into it

but you've got to give it its own

podium. It needs to be it is a pillar of

health and you need to treat it that

way.

Mhm. You reference like good sleeper and

bad sleeper. What's the uh what were the

characteristics of each?

So everyone always thinks I'm going to

say well a good sleeper does this and a

good sleeper does that. But actually the

only difference I have seen over however

long doing this is that a good sleeper

is somebody who just doesn't worry that

much about their sleep. They are very

grateful for their sleep and they're

very you know you know they they give

themselves a fair opportunity. They

don't always sleep well. They don't, you

know, sometimes they have sleep

problems, but they don't get overly

bothered by it. And they notice that

their sleep when left to its own devices

will go back to whatever it needs to be.

About 10% of insomniacs we never see

because they don't perceive themselves

to be having a problem and they're not

sick and dying. Isn't this somewhat uh I

guess a metaphor for the for the rest of

our lives as well where typically much

of the problem is people thinking that

they have a problem or their own

perception of their reality because I'll

be honest um everyone around me doesn't

think I sleep very well. But I've always

thought that I slept really really well.

And I've just I think refused to buy

into the idea that I'm a bad sleeper.

They think that because I'm up at

strange times. Sometimes I'm traveling

at strange time. But I I I've never

worried about my sleep. When I go into

my room, eventually I'll fall asleep and

at some point I'll wake up. But I guess

the point I'm trying to make there is as

well, if you look at what's happening in

the world, um with the pandemic and you

know, people feeling certain um feeling

like they should be a certain way is

actually making them that way. People

feeling like they should feel self-pity

is making them feel self-pity. And um as

someone that's been to Rio de Janeiro

and seen the um the fllas there and

spent time in the fllas, but also I've

been to India and spent some time in the

Dharavia I think they call it which is

you know known as the slums which I

think is a derogatory term.

Um I've seen people in the in the slums

in India who were significantly happier

um than people that I know that are very

you know relatively cushy. And I know

it's all subjective living in the UK and

it just but people hate when we talk

about these the these these things

because it gets the mirror of blame and

responsibility and it just turns it back

on themselves and says maybe you're the

problem.

Maybe the way you're thinking

is the problem and maybe you can do

something about it.

Yeah, absolutely. You've hit the nail on

the head. Um, like I said, about 10% of

insomniacs we we never see. And

actually, if you think about it,

insomnia is just another pattern of

sleep. And you have a certain pattern of

sleep right now. And if it's not broken,

do not fix it. I firmly believe that.

And if you ever have a problem, well,

you know where I am. Um, but hopefully

you never will because you'll follow

your gut, follow what you feel is right.

Um, if that turns you, then fair enough.

Um, get some support. But actually you

you really have hit the nail on the head

and I really do believe with a bit more

of understanding and education around

sleep and that it's not night to your

your sleep doesn't work like that. I get

yes we do need to most of the time sleep

night to night but it can survive

without doing that. Um it is in it's

incredible. If we spent more time

understanding how amazing sleep was

rather than fearing when it doesn't

happen and then blaming it for

absolutely everything,

we would be in a much better position.

We would cherish it more and we would um

you know love it more but not overly put

pressure on it which is ridiculous.

Sleep cannot force you to lose your job.

Sleep can't do though or lack of it. It

just can't. Um but our belief that it

does is making this problem worse. So

yes, it is 100% a mindset. I spend most

of my time not training people to sleep

again, but actually trying to help

resolve that mindset. One of the last

things I do when I finished with a

client is I have to go through and help

them understand that sleep is not the be

all and end all because actually even to

treat their sleep, I have to get them to

focus on it.

And actually, I need to take the focus

away now.

And one of the exercises I do is I tell

them, look, I now want you to think that

we're in a world where sleep doesn't

exist. And when I do that, people are

like, "Oh my god, that would be awful

because it would just be one long

perpetual day. We'd never finish our

day." Just philosophically and

psychologically, how would we deal with

that? And actually, I'm like, "Yes,

that's how you should be thinking about

it because that time, even when you're

not sleeping, is beautiful and we should

cherish it." Um, and also, if you didn't

sleep, what would be all the other

variables that would affect you? And I

start getting them to think about the

rest of their lives and all these other

things like exercise and eating right.

And they're just the basics. um who you

interact with, when you watch the news,

the bills you paid that day, whether you

walked the dog, um all sorts of things,

pain, um noisy neighbors, uh your

commute to work. How many of those

things actually have a properly

significant impact on you, but you'll

still blame it on your sleep,

and then it's a perpetual cycle because

then you start compensating, well, I'm

not going to do this anymore. I'm not

going to go to the gym. I'm not going to

see my friends. I'm terrified that it's

going to do something that affects my

sleep. And then your sleep is worse

because your body's now thinking, "Oh,

so she doesn't need to get good sleep at

night because she's not doing anything

in the day anymore." And so you make it

worse and worse and worse. And that is

one of the biggest things I see in a

long-term insomniac is somebody who's

literally stopped living in order to fix

the problem. Why do we think that's

going to fix the problem? It doesn't.

What about a bad sleeper then? So we

talked a little bit about the prof like

the profile of the characteristics of a

good sleeper. What's a bad sleeper? So a

bad sleeper is somebody who really does

um they get bad sleep and suddenly they

start worrying about the lack of sleep

and then what they'll do is they'll look

up how do I fix my sleep? They'll come

up with 10 regimented rules and they'll

start becoming obsessive and ritualistic

about those rules. They'll stop going

out in the evening and they'll start

having the hot warm bath, the the herbal

tea and every single thing that they

have um they think and they know it

doesn't work, but they're so terrified

of not doing them because that's all

they've got to hold on to now that they

are um you know they they they they

can't go away from it. And actually

trying to take teach those people to

sleep better is is harder than somebody

who's a bit more relaxed around their

routine because they've built these

things up so hard. Do you know what's

really funny is um what you've described

there is a person who is so

keen to solve a problem that probably

isn't that much of a problem that they

they're they're in search of these

techniques and tips and secrets and

shortcuts and whatever. Probably a lot

of the people that felt compelled to

click on this podcast today to listen to

it and you see the same within

uh success and ambition. you see this

like this certain group of people that

I'm going to be honest, okay, are almost

never really successful,

but spend the most time trying to be.

And when I when I think about my

success, so when I read these books

about, oh, the the perfect way to be

successful, here's 13 tips that all

successful people share, I think this is

total [ __ ] nonsense because my sleep

is I sleep whenever I feel tired, as you

say. I eat blah blah blah, you know? I

don't do yoga. I don't like meditate

every day. I don't I don't follow any

script or blueprint. I just kind of go

with the flow and do my best every

single day and show up and try and be

better tomorrow. Like if that that's as

far as it goes for me. There's no

looking in the mirror and saying,

"Steve, you're going to be a

millionaire. Steve, you're going to be,"

you know what I mean? All of that feels

like nonsense to me. But the people that

seem to um do those things, the

visualizations in the mirror, the mood

boarding my future, like they are never

the successful ones. All of my

successful friends don't do that. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I I I maybe I think what I'm saying

is it sounds like the same applies to

sleep.

Yeah.

Where like the the people that get

addicted on techniques and tips and

tricks end up having the worst sleep

overall.

Yeah.

What have we missed? I'm asking you this

question because there's so many unknown

unknowns. I don't I don't know a ton

about sleep again because I've never

really cared that much about it. Right.

So,

is there anything that you think we've

missed? any specific topics or

I think I would love it if people came

away from this podcast and gave their

sleep a little bit of a break and in the

same sort of with the same idea I'm sure

there'll be people out there thinking

yes but when I wake up tonight in the

middle of the night what do I do about

it so I guess this is one thing we

haven't covered to understand that if

you are waking up in the middle of the

night and it's been happening to you

over and over again this has become a

habit and therefore to resolve the habit

you're going to have to do something

consistently ly you're not going to be

able to solve it in one night. It's just

not going to happen. However, if you're

waking up and you're getting stressed

and anxious, do not lie in bed. It's not

going to help you. You've got a

different problem now. You've made

yourself anxious and stressed and you

need to alleviate it. Leave the bedroom.

Go and enjoy yourself. It is not going

to wake you up. You are already awake.

Your sleep drive clearly isn't there to

take you back to sleep. So, go do

something else. Make sure you get up in

the morning. Do not lie in. Go and have

the epic day. Enjoy yourself. Go and see

your friends or talk to them over Zoom

or go and do some exercise. Get outside.

Get some light exposure. Be happy and

content in your life. Focus on other

things and go to bed when you're really,

really sleepy. And when it happens again

the next night, do the same thing. And I

promise you eventually you will be able

to get out of it. But if you lie there

and you get anxious and stressed and you

try and force yourself to sleep, you

already know this doesn't work. You're

trying it over and over again. So don't

do it. So, that's the thing that I would

say. I I hope that when people listen to

this, they come away and they're like,

"Do you know what? I'm not as worried as

I was about my sleep. I'm actually going

to chill out and I'm I'm going to be all

right about it.

But if I do want to improve the quality,

I've listened to what she said. There's

some key things there. I'm going to I'm

going to try do those few things." But

it's about the little things. So, it's

not about doing 20 different things. It

is just about literally get up at the

same time every morning. Stop

overcompensating. Stop diluting your

sleep opportunity when you don't get

good sleep. Make it smaller. build that

sleepiness. It's actually good for you.

Don't freak out. Nothing bad's going to

happen.

And you talked one particular point I

wanted to come back on there because I I

when I asked my audience about the

questions they had for you again about I

say 15 20% of them were all about

I keep waking up in the middle of the

night. What to do? So you're saying get

out of bed.

Get out of bed and go and do something

that you love. Do not Yeah. Do not

go and do something like clean the

bathroom or do something boring. Go and

do something that is going to be

distracting. For God's sake, we're

always going on about how little time we

have. You've got more time now. So, go

and use it. Go and do something fun. I'm

not saying get up and go to work. I'm

not saying that because I still think

this is your sleep opportunity. And if

you want to retrain your brain to sleep

during this time, then you've got to

sort of do things that are I'm not

saying you need to relax, relax, relax,

because I think people get stressed at

that term and they're like, I can't

relax. I don't know how to relax. Don't

make me do this.

So, I think what makes you happy? Do

some things that just make you happy.

Whether that's looking at old photos or

just doing something that you love, it

is okay. Okay? It's not going to be

forever. Like I said, you cannot force

yourself to sleep. But you can dictate

when you don't sleep. So, as long as

you're not overcompensating by lying in

or going to bed early because you're so

worried about the sleep that you've

lost, forget it. It's gone. There's

nothing you can do about it. So, just

move on and do the right things. And I

promise you, you will start sleeping

better. But the more you freak out and

you're worried about what is going to

happen to you if you don't sleep another

night in a row, the more you won't be

able to fix the problem.

Great. Where can people find you?

Uh, so I'm at sleepyheadcl clinic.co.uk.

It's gone pretty international now

because of the co is literally I'm

online now. Um, and

sleepyheadprogram.com.

If you have no time to speak to me or

you just want to do it yourself, um I

have set up this online course that you

can do, uh which I'm very excited about

with two awesome business partners who

are just as crazy and passionate about

sleep as I am. And hopefully we can

start seeing more people um and and and

build on it and make it an even better

experience. So yeah,

listen, thank you so much for your time

today. Um, sleep is a a thing that I

think has been, as I said at the start

of the podcast, has been in in increased

in relevance um, in our society and in

my personal conversations online,

through Instagram, through books that

aren't, as you say, necessarily very

helpful. So, it's been um very

refreshing to to hear a almost a

counternarrative to the kind of very

binary specific um quick um secret

orientated like hacks that people push

online and that's uh I think will do a

ton of people a lot of good. So, thank

you so much for coming.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you. Thanks.

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