with humiliating reading in the press

what had happened.

I got fired twice in 6 months.

Unless we could raise funding, there

weren't going to be any jobs. You had a

tough time. It was really damaging to me

and my mental health. Tom didn't think I

was capable. Nothing was going to stop

Starling succeeding. People don't start

banks and if they do start a bank, they

are probably a billionaire. When I

started talking to people about I'm

going to start a bank, you know, I could

see people thinking I was totally crazy.

I hadn't raised a penny. The only money

that had gone into the business was my

money. And he said, "No, I'm not going

to give you 3 million.

I'm going to give you 48.

I have the privilege of running Starling

and it is a privilege and there's lots

of things going wrong and lots of

pressures on me, but it's a great

privilege to have." If you've been

listening to this you would have heard

the episode I did with Tom Blomfield. He

was the former CEO and founder of Monzo

Bank, one of the big fintech disruptor

banks here in the UK. And during that

episode, he also tells us the story of

his time at Starling Bank, the rival

bank that he co-founded with Anne Boden.

And that episode is dramatic. It should

be a movie. They talk about their

fallout. In the episode, Tom claims that

Anne fired 16 members of staff in the

same day. So in this episode, Anne

wanted to come in to tell her side of

the story, but also to tell her story.

And it's an incredible story. It's an

inspiring story. It's a story that

doesn't quite make sense in the fact

that she's achieved so much in an

industry where she was an underdog at an

age when she also admits she is an

underdog confronting stereotypes that

make her an underdog. And despite the

odds being stacked against her, she's

built a multi-billion

dollar bank here in the UK. It really is

a crazy story, one that I believe one

day will be a Netflix show. Think about

that. Two people came together to take

on the banking world. They came together

and founded a bank called Starling Bank.

They had this major blow up. They

separated.

Anne starts again. And they both build

incredibly successful multi-billion

dollar banks individually.

It is one hell of a story. It twists, it

turns, and it inspires you.

So without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett

and this is the Diary of a CEO.

I hope nobody's listening, but if you

are,

then please keep this to yourself.

Anne,

humble beginnings.

Do you think that's a accurate phrase to

describe the start of your life? Yeah,

it was humble. Um I My father worked in

the steelworks. Um my father came home

from work with newspapers under his arm,

all greasy from, you know, sort of doing

hard work. My mom worked in the local

department store.

Um and we were happy.

Brothers and sisters? No, only child. Um

my parents married late. My father came

back from the Second World War. Um found

um his dream wife and they had a really,

really happy marriage. And school life

and uh I went to the local comprehensive

school.

Uh it's a very, very new school.

Um

I was brought up in my grandmother's

house, my parents, my grandmother in a

older house on the edge of a big, big

council estate.

And in the middle of this huge council

estate, they built this new

comprehensive school.

And it was

not a very good school. It was very new.

I was one of the first children to go to

university. And to be honest, there was

a bit of a stigma from coming from that

area and that school.

I know you went and I know people that

do computer science are smartasses. So

you're you're definitely smart, right?

Yeah.

I think um

I did most of my studying myself. The

school um

couldn't do a lot to help, to be honest.

When I had my O levels, I think

everybody was quite shocked by how well

I'd done. Um but I did most of my

studying by, you know, buying my own

textbooks and reading myself. And the

house wasn't a an academic home. My

father left school at 15 at 14, my

mother at 15.

Um there were no books at home except

holiday brochures. Uh we lived to go on

holiday. We were very, very happy

family. We had a touring caravan and we

went all over Europe. Um but it was very

unusual for

um a daughter of that home to be

interested in studying.

Why?

Um

why I was studying or why it was

unusual? Why was it unusual for Yeah. I

think the um

my parents didn't push me.

My parents believed were very liberal.

You know, they you know, all the kids of

the neighborhood sort of hung out in our

house. It was a very happy home. Um we

were

very, very fortunate to have just a

probably a little bit more money than

everybody living around us.

Um but there was no emphasis on on

education. Um

that was something I did. You know, I

went to the local academic bookshop and

and I remember sort of taking a book off

the shelf, you know, what you do at 14,

you know, what subjects do you choose?

This is all much This is me

choosing these things, not my parents.

And you were choosing those subjects

because you you enjoyed you

intrinsically enjoyed learning

or because you wanted to become super

wildly successful as a mega

entrepreneur? I wanted a job with a

briefcase.

I wanted a job in an office. I didn't

actually know anybody that worked in an

office.

Um my inspiration was from television.

It is very much seeing people on

television and seeing that people had

jobs in in London, in glamorous places,

were doing interesting things and I

could do that. And my parents were very

supportive. They gave me as much money

as I wanted to spend in the bookshop.

Um yeah, and they, you know, went out

and bought me you bought me a 24-volume

set of Encyclopedia Britannica.

The only problem was it was 1953

edition.

Right, so all my knowledge was somewhat

sort of outdated. But it was a great

home and we did interesting things and I

did well in school and I went to

university.

And at that point, I'm guessing you

didn't have a huge, from what you've

said, a desire to become an

entrepreneur.

I never thought I'd ever be an

entrepreneur.

Entrepreneurship is something which is

quite recent. You know, coming out of

school, it was very much

I wanted a job that was scientific or um

or interesting where I could I actually

wanted to be a scientist. I actually

wanted to be doing something with

chemistry and computers, whatever. And

my mom said to me, "You're going to try

for one normal job, you know, um apply

for a job in a bank." And I did.

And the competition for the job was

huge. There were thousands of people

applying for a job at Lloyds Bank to be

a computer um specialist as a graduate

computer specialist.

And I got the job.

So when I got the job, I had to take it.

This is post-university. Yeah. Why did

you choose computer science at

university? And am I right in thinking,

because it's still kind of the case now,

that that was a very

male-dominated

subject to choose? Yeah, um it was

almost all men. Um

my father thought I could possibly be a

metallurgist at the steelworks. What's a

metallurgist? That you know, studies

metals, how metals are are made. Um

yeah, um but there was no uh

there was no concept at home of jobs for

women or jobs for men.

Um that didn't really exist. I came from

a home where my mother was very capable

and my grandmother was very capable. So

me becoming a computer scientist and

going to um Swansea University to study

where there were all men wasn't

something that really fazed me.

And you go off to the to university,

study computer science. You do pretty

well at university, I'm guessing. Yeah,

okay. Yeah, you did great, I'm sure. Uh

and then you get get this job at Lloyds

Bank in the in the graduate program and

you're there for how long? Uh

4 and 1/2 years. I do 4 and 1/2 years

before I quit. Oh, really? Is that a

Yeah, I I I had a 4 and 1/2 year thing

going on. Right. So I was 4 and 1/2

years at Lloyds Bank.

Um you know, great job. You know, so you

know, did the branch thing, did all the

jobs.

Uh and then uh my first boss told me,

"You better tone down your aspirations,

otherwise you'll get very, very

frustrated."

Ooh.

Ooh.

And that didn't work with me. I was

really, really determined that I was

going to get on.

So I did 4 and 1/2 years at

Lloyds Bank. I did 5 years at Standard

Chartered Bank.

I did 3 and 1/2 years at Price

Waterhouse

uh studying banks and advising banks.

half years at Price Waterhouse,

uh, studying banks and advising banks.

And, uh, I went to UBS,

uh, in, uh, in in the city and then out

to Switzerland. Five years out in

Switzerland working for a big bank.

Uh, joined a big insurance company,

worked all over the world, worked in

Chicago a bit, uh, and then joined a

bank in Amsterdam, ABN AMRO. Um, worked

in all sorts of places from Kazakhstan

to Uzbekistan to all the places around

the world. Yeah, quit again.

Uh, spent some time in fintech before

going into Allied Irish Banks as chief

operating officer. So, that that stint

across all of those different banks that

you worked in across all of these

different territories, how long was that

in total? Uh, ooh, 30 years. So, I did,

yeah. Mhm. Yeah, I started in 1981

and I I quit

to become an entrepreneur

um, in 2014.

That's very atypical.

Oh, yeah, it's a it's very very unusual.

I've also done different things in the

jobs. I keep meeting people and people

go, "I know Anne Boden, she worked in

insurance."

And I go, "I That's me."

And they go, "No, no, no, no, there's a

There's Anne Boden and she worked in in

She was a computer scientist, she did

computing things." Uh, no, no, that

that's me. Um, so, I've had a long

career

doing lots of different things in

different companies, but I was a

corporate person.

Mhm. When I quit to become an

entrepreneur,

that was something I'd never done.

And did you consciously make the

decision that I don't want to do the

corporate

life stuff anymore, I want to start my

own business and give it a shot. And

when you did that, what age were you?

54. At 54 years old you decide that you

want to

go it alone and

give up all of that corporate stuff and

all the the perks and you can say perks,

all the perks, the stability, the

security of the corporate world

and

Yeah, well, I was getting up every

morning thinking, "Somebody has to do

something about this banking industry."

I was sort of ex- shamed to be a banker,

I wasn't quite comfortable with it.

And the banking industry was, you know,

hadn't hadn't embraced tech. You know,

everything was changing and the banking

industry was looking back rather than

forwards.

And I started thinking, "Look, you know,

I've got a bit of independence now, I

can do whatever I want. Uh, I really

like to do my own business

and perhaps I'll start a dress shop.

Right? You know, I quite like fashion,

you know, perhaps I'll do a dress shop."

Mhm. And

I realized I know nothing about fashion.

I know a lot about banking and what I

should do is start a bank.

And but nobody ever starts banks. Yeah,

I was going to say that's not like her.

No one goes from, "Oh, I'll do a dress

shop, maybe a bank." Like people don't

Yeah, I I

Yeah, I The only thing I knew about was

banks and how banks are run.

And, you know, people who start banks,

well, they don't start banks. People

don't start banks and if they do start a

bank, they are probably a billionaire.

Mhm. And therefore, you know, I was very

different. You know, and

when I started talking to people about,

you know,

I'm going to start a bank.

You know, I could see people thinking I

was totally crazy. Of course.

You know, first of all, people don't

start banks and a 5-ft tall Welsh woman

definitely doesn't start a bank.

Yes. I mean,

I hate to support the stereotypes, but I

wouldn't start a bank like if if if I

was a, you know, 40-year-old billionaire

white male that was 6-ft 10, let alone,

yeah, a

a slightly shorter Welsh woman.

Uh, so, you just want to be cuz I really

This is purely for my curiosity here cuz

I'm trying to understand how you

like, you know,

cuz yeah, I don't have the guts. So, um,

you're 50 50-odd years old, you're

currently in your corporate job.

Yeah. And and whilst you're at the job,

you start thinking about starting the

bank. Okay. And at some point you hand

in your resignation. At what point did

you hand in the resignation? Was it

while you were still in the job and the

bank had started moving or did you leave

and then start start putting in the

foundations? No, I I decided very

quickly. I

left

um,

and within weeks

I was working on the new proposition.

Um, it's only last weekend I started

unpacking the boxes. I came back from

Ireland, I was in Ireland, um,

and I decided, you know, you know, give

my notice in, you know, started the

whole proposition, um, you know, booked

the removal vans to bring me back over

and then, you know, put them in the

house and immediately went out knocking

on doors. Um, it's only now I'm finding

some time to unpack those boxes. Wow.

How many years later? Uh, seven years.

Crikey.

So, you you leave, you start knocking on

doors. How did you feel emotionally when

you leave the the corporate system

and you hand in your resignation and you

know you're going, but you don't have

your next move like solidified yet,

you're still building that thing. You

know, they describe entrepreneurship as

throwing yourself off the cliff and like

building the paraglider as you fall. How

did you feel emotionally at that phase?

I think you have to cope with the fact

that you no longer have that bit that

business card. You no longer longer have

a title.

Um, and you know, I thought it's going

to be relatively easy to raise money for

Starling Bank. You know, sort of yes and

you know, sort of I raised money in a in

a job before. I could knock on a few

doors and they would give me the money I

needed. It was incredibly difficult.

I, you know, going into lots of offices

basically saying, "I have this great

idea, okay? Um, it's an awesome idea.

I'm going to build a bank like no other

bank. I'll be going to build the

technology from scratch and it's going

to be really fair to customers. It's

going to have a whole new way of

engaging with the people that it served

and and I'm going to take market share

of Barclays and HSBC and Lloyds. Um, so,

all I need is some money."

Uh, people would

some people would tell me to my face

that I was never going to do it. Um, you

know, the people who thought they were

being kind would say, "You know, you've

never been an entrepreneur and you've

never run a bank as a CEO before."

Um, and

those two things are things you can't,

you know, raise money for.

Um, so, it is tough.

And yeah, there was a lot and lots of

knocking on doors. Lots of people

telling me it was impossible.

And

in some cases, it was really hard to

carry on, you know, sort of sending the

emails.

But I was determined.

And even a glimpse of people tell

somebody telling me something positive

was enough to drive me on to the next

meeting.

And was there

a blow at that time that felt the

hardest?

Um, an email, a meeting,

uh,

Yeah, I think that there was one meeting

with a with a set of investors where I

just didn't have any of the answers.

You know, you've been there, you're an

entrepreneur.

Yeah, I know. Okay. They ask you all

these questions um, and I didn't have

any of the answers. You know, hadn't got

as far as, you know, coming up with that

part of the plan.

And that felt, you know, that felt

awful. Um, but you you pick yourself up

and you figure out how you're going to

find the answers.

And you find the answers by asking

people for help. You ask people for help

that have

that are in the industry. You ask people

that help for help that you've worked

with in the past.

There's a stereotype that people that

build technology are from Silicon

Valley, they're like young white men.

Um, you know, that probably went to

Harvard or something like that.

Yeah. Um, you bucked that trend. Yeah.

When you were walking into those rooms

and having those conversations, were you

aware

that there was a certain prejudice

probably acting against you? Oh,

definitely. You know, um,

people assume that I'm not technical.

People assume that I'm not, you know,

capable of coding. You know, there's

code running in banks, big banks today

that I wrote. Uh, people assume that you

have to be from Silicon Valley, you have

to be in your 20s or your 30s, um, and

look and sound a certain way to build a

tech company.

Um,

you don't look like me or sound like me.

Um, but I was determined to build a tech

company.

And that was very very hard for people

to

to appreciate.

What was your What was the driving force

that spurred you on regardless of the

resistance that you clearly encountered

then? What was it that made you, you

know, I'm going to keep going?

I'm going to carry on knocking.

I think that at that time I was talking

to venture capitalists and investors

about this concept of a new bank. Yeah,

it is possible to build a new bank. It

is possible to be a bank that actually

has a lower cost base. Has a different

way of relating to customers. It is

possible to do this. And I kept hearing

those same statements replayed in

different ways to different roots. You

know, occasionally I go on to a um,

a VC sort of website from from Silicon

Valley and somebody'd say roughly the

same thing.

Uh, there weren't any new banks at that

stage. There wasn't anybody else doing

it. But I felt that there was um whether

it was an echo chamber or whether I was

hearing my own ideas back to me or other

people are thinking the same way.

I felt I was onto something. Mhm. I felt

that it was possible for

people to create an um organizations

that are going to change things.

Mhm.

And you'd never done it before. So,

would you describe yourself as someone

that has a high level of self-belief at

that point?

I've managed to pull off things

throughout my career where people

thought

I couldn't go to the next stage.

Um throughout my career people have

looked at me and thought

Mhm. Yeah, okay. She'll probably get one

promotion.

She won't get any more.

Um those people were normally

well, working in my department a few

years later. Mhm. Um so, I've always

managed to go one step beyond or a

couple of steps beyond what people

expected.

When I started this venture, I was

surrounded by people who knew how this

new world worked. They knew how venture

capital worked. They knew how

how you behaved, how you talked, how you

pitched your ideas.

I had to learn that.

And I was

as a woman and as somebody who'd come

from the corporate world, I was not used

to

overselling my ideas. You know, one of

the things about Starling's whole

journey is that

we tend to over-deliver

because deep down you tend to underplay

your ideas or underplay your success.

And therefore, you know, Starling's

consistently over-delivered and

surprised people over the years.

Is that a fair typical stereoty- typical

or typical feminine quality?

This idea of like because people talk a

lot about the reason why

um some of the reason why um

uh women in business um

struggle to get promotions is they're

less likely to

eloquate and oversell themselves and

demand promotions in the same way that

men do. So, I'm wondering that like that

conservatism

and that um over-delivering

but not over-promising is something

that's quite typical of women.

Yeah, I think it's a question of it's a

very very difficult balance. Mhm. If you

if you come over as arrogant, if you

come over as demanding, you're not

likable. Mhm.

Um if you if you're too soft and too and

underplay what you have or what you're

doing, you too soft, you know, sort of

you you can't get it right. Mhm. Um

but

I had to learn how to sell the ideas and

it took years.

It's interesting. I don't like to dwell

too much on like gender differences, but

I I I think I'm asking that question as

well because I remember a VC friend of

mine um and also a guy called I think it

was Chamath, but a guy called Chamath

who's one of the big uh investors and he

says that the

female-founded businesses in his

portfolio always uh have when he Kevin

O'Leary as well from Shark Tank, he's

saying the same thing. He says that his

female founders um under-promise and

over-deliver consistently. Like and he

said when I looked at all of my

portfolio companies, I think he's got 40

or 50, the female-led businesses were

outperforming significantly because they

were

under- under-promising and

over-delivering.

There's a big announcement that's just

come out today, in fact. Um if you're

listening to this, it would have been

about 2 weeks ago. Huel have now

released their new flavors and

thankfully, I can now talk about them.

They've released a flavor which I think

might now be my best flavor. Everybody's

up been asking for the the sort of the

caffeine the caffeinated version of

Huel. They've released an iced coffee

caramel flavor, which is amazing. I've

tried that. They've released a salted

caramel flavor. If you know me, you know

that's my favorite flavor in the world.

But surprisingly,

the flavor which I think might be my new

favorite is the cinnamon swirl. I know

it sounds strange, right? I never would

have asked for that, but the truth of

life is that sometimes the things you

didn't know you wanted are the things

you needed the most. And for me, Huel

cinnamon swirl flavor, I think is my

favorite flavor now. Very random, but

try it. Delicious. Honestly delicious.

And uh nutritionally complete. Win win

win win win win.

So, hiring those first few people

Starling Bank, what was that process

like? Um and and really sort of laying

the foundations of that business.

Well, it was all about sort of phoning

up people I knew, explaining what I was

going to do

and the idea and really working with

every organization I knew, trying to get

favors. Uh the the traditional venture

capital route wasn't open to me.

Uh actually going to um

VCs and saying, "Can I Can I Can I raise

50,000, 100,000, 300,000?"

You know, it it wasn't open to to me

because

I I wasn't like the other people in

those schemes. Mhm.

I had to

really work with big consultancy firms

and tell them that I had this idea to

start a new bank

and they were going to miss out if they

didn't back me. Unfortunately, I didn't

have any money to pay them. I would pay

them once I raised the money, but would

they help me?

Uh and some of those big firms decided

to back me.

And lots of people in those firms took

big personal risk

because most people in those big

consulting firms thought that this was

just totally crazy idea. She wants to

take on Barclays. Ha ha ha.

It'll never happen. No, no, let's try

it, you know, we may learn something on

the way. You know, sort of She's got all

these crazy ideas. You may be able to

take them and sell them to other

customers. You know, let let's just just

help her. And I must admit I hung out in

their customer lounges

for years.

Really? Yeah.

Just chilling. Just Yeah.

Okay, interesting. So, you you you you

you raised money in a slightly

unconventional way considering the

industry. Then you start calling people

that you want to hire from the banking

world that you've met or

Yeah, I phoned them up.

I've always been quite an unusual boss.

I've always been quite um different to

the people that I, you know, work with

in other organizations.

Uh people tend to be quite loyal to me.

And I phoned them up and say, um yeah, I

got a great idea. We're going to start

this bank. Uh different ones are coming

to work with me

uh and we'll raise some money, whatever.

And that's how the team got together.

So, the the the who was in the core

team?

Yeah, okay. So, there's there was a

couple of core teams, okay? There was

the the first core team was the bunch

that eventually went to to found Monzo.

Tom's. Which you wrote about in the book

and Tom's been here. Yeah. So, that that

was the first cohort. Yeah. Yeah. And

then Tom left Yeah. uh with the team

Mhm. and I started again. I started

again in exactly the same way, phoning

people up and say,

"Yep, I'm still trying to start this

bank.

You know, please please come and help

me." So, Tom in particular, Tom

obviously sat here, he did the podcast

which I'm sure you've heard and you've

written about um Tom in the book as

well. How did you come to meet Tom?

I met Tom at a dinner. Right. I I met

Tom at a dinner in 2011

uh when he was working with GoCardless.

And I I spotted him as being a very

clever, funny, charismatic individual uh

that was running a business.

And we kept in touch.

So, when you started Starling, you

needed It was a CTO? He came on as a

CTO? Mhm. So, uh yeah, I needed a CTO.

Um I'd been a bit of a mentor to Tom.

Tom had gone to the States to work for

uh Grouper. You know, we kept in touch.

I'd met him with coffee once or twice.

And when he was back coming into the UK,

I phoned him up and said or he contacted

me says he's back uh and we I hired him

as a CTO.

So, he hires as a CTO. He then builds

out the technical team. I'm guessing

that's typically what CTOs do.

we we you know, we started hiring

developers. Yeah. Okay. And

was there cuz I obviously it's well

written that there there was a bit of a

fallout here. Yeah. Um take me on that

journey. When did when when did that How

did the relationship start and when was

there when was there friction?

Uh it One day, Tom decides to um

to go.

Um unfortunately,

um we were about to take funding

um uh which meant that the deal was

going to not going to happen. And

basically, at that particular point, um

the funding and the team fell apart. Um

you know, looking looking back of what

happened, you know, I

You know, Tom had a real really really

tough time at Monzo. Mhm. Um I feel for

him.

Um perhaps that we could have stayed

together as a team and I could have done

what I'm good at and perhaps Tom could

have done what he was good at.

Mhm. Uh but, you know, sort of

you know, that's history. Both Monzo and

Starling have done really really well.

Mhm. And having a bit of competition

does actually lead to

a probably better industry. Mhm.

The Klarna's founder that came on said

that about Afterpay as well.

I I read that there was a funding deal

um

early on, but you pulled out of the

funding deal because one of the founders

was involved in a crime.

Yeah, it was yeah.

So, you Starling Bank was a going to

take funding.

Mhm. And you pulled out of the deal

because one of the founders of the

firm investing was involved in a serious

crime or because Starling was involved

in a serious crime? I couldn't quite

No, no, Starling was not you know, sort

of This was This was um This was the

fund we were going to take investment

about from and one of the founders of

that firm didn't have the reputation

that we wanted. Starling is a very, very

Starling believes in something. We have

a mission.

We believe in doing the right thing.

And I think it's very, very important

that we

you know, especially in those early

days, we maintain and are true to our

vision.

And that caused a disagreement between

yourself and Tom.

It wasn't that. It wasn't that. There

was a a culture clash around

a corny video I heard that was being

produced.

Um I'm trying to understand what like

the cuz I get I get I understand a a

point

where founders part ways, but typically

that's there's lots of small things that

happen leading up into that point,

little points of friction or

disagreements. And what were those um

points of disagreement?

I think Tom and I have much more in

common than people think. Um you know,

sort of Tom and I often sit on panels

now, right? So, so it's it's a panel of

four

and you know, and they go, "Great idea.

We'll have Starling and Monzo on the

panel and we'll have two traditional

banks in the middle, you know, Barclays

and Lloyds, whatever." And um and

there's lots of questions. And somebody

asks the question

and

there's going to be two answers. There's

going to be one set of answers from Tom

and myself. We tend to have the same

view on things and then a different

answer from the from the incumbent

banks. And sometimes I can see, you

know, I look across the panel, catch

sort of Tom's eye and he and you know, I

answer or he answers. There's lots more

we have in common

and it's a really it's a real pity it

you know, it ended the way it did. You

know, you know, there's lots of places

in the book where I talk about um you

know, sort of you know, Tom's intellect

and and Tom's energy.

Um it's a real pity it ended the way it

did. There came a day where you you

turned to the to Tom and you knew there

was something wrong.

And you you say to him, you know, Tom is

there is there

you don't seem happy about something

here.

And um

and he he responds that he's sick of

your knee-jerk behavior.

Mhm.

How did How did that feel? What was What

What was he referring to when he says,

"Sick of your knee-jerk behavior?"

I think that

um you know, businesses are very, very

stressful.

I think Tom, you know, is

is an individual that sometimes has

tough times.

And you know, sort of

every single conversation between

founders

uh on the wrong day about the wrong

thing could possibly lead to that sort

of breakup. But um

wow, what a story, eh?

How would you describe the differences

in your personalities?

Cuz it seems like that's probably at the

heart of the

clash.

I don't think different personalities

lead to clashes. Interesting.

I think that

people have different personalities

working together can create great

businesses. Mhm.

Um

I think Tom

you know, went on, you know, to to you

know, sort of lead a great group at

Monzo.

And you know, and I've listened to his

the show

um where he talked to you

and

he had a tough time.

When you heard that, how did you feel

about the way that the events were

recounted?

Be honest with me. I want to know the

truth.

Yeah, it's a very, very difficult very

difficult question to answer.

Um

I chose Tom as a CTO.

Um I still believe he is an extremely

talented individual.

And he has

you know, grown a great business. Of

course, Starling is a better business.

Um uh but isn't it great that

what happened you know, the story of you

know, it's a

yeah. You know, two individuals

come across each other.

Um they meet, you know, sort of one

decides to start a bank, hires the other

person.

Um there's a falling out. Both

businesses going on to really change

things.

And well, it's it's it's the story of

digital banking in the UK.

I keep wondering if you know, if that

story never happened, uh would we've all

got so much, you know, sort of

inches in the press, to be honest. It

was quite a story.

But how did you feel when you heard the

way that he recounted the events? You

You're listening to it, it's going

through your ears and you're thinking

It's the first time I'd heard it, but I

knew that that story was being retold in

places where I couldn't hear it.

Um but I'm quite philosophical about

this. We all see the world and a story

in different ways.

And

yeah.

You know, it's a

it's it's another piece in the story of

the Starling Monzo journey.

And at this time when you and Tom are

having a fallout um within Starling and

you're you've realized I guess that you

know, you have different ideas and

perspectives about how things should be

done and where they should be going, you

hold a crisis meeting, you come

together. Um I guess you you have these

meetings I guess because you're trying

to discuss a way a way through, a way to

a positive outcome.

I think at some point you realize that

there's not going to be a positive

outcome and one of you's going to have

to leave.

And then you offer up your resignation.

Yeah. So, you offered to to leave to

quit Starling Bank. Mhm.

Yeah, I you know, and that's

you you've talked about, you know, how

women act differently to men.

I was prepared to give up Starling.

I was prepared to give up my part in

Starling for the good of Starling.

And that was a very stupid thing to do.

Why?

Because it was my business, it was my

idea.

Um I'd got the business to where it was.

But I was volunteering to give up my

role in Starling

because

I wanted Starling to succeed.

Tom, I think, didn't think I was

capable.

Somebody that like me

that has spent so many years in

corporate life that I wasn't capable of

delivering and building

a big tech company.

And I built a big tech company.

Um yeah.

So, he didn't have that faith in me.

But I realized that I could do it

and made it happen.

Specifically in those days, you you

decide that you're going to step away

for the greater good of the business.

Mhm. Admirable thing to do, some would

say.

Um

it appears that

it's one of the decisions you regret in

hindsight.

Getting to that place, I'm just gauging

by your reaction then it seems like it's

something where you look back and think,

"Why did I

Yeah, I should never have volunteered to

resign.

I should never have volunteered to go.

Um

that was me

saying um that the survival of Starling

was was more important than me.

And both things are important. My part

in Starling and the survival of

Starling.

And what was it that changed your mind?

Well, I think as I write in the book

I'd sort of retreated. I went to a

coffee shop, went to Starbucks

and um met a guy that I'd seen in

Starbucks every Sunday for the you know,

for the previous 10 years and you know,

he's a tech entrepreneur.

And he came to me and he sat opposite me

and he said, you know, chatted about

things.

And I said that I'd stepped away from

Starling because that was the only way

the business would succeed.

And he said to me, "What you going to do

next?" I said I probably going to start

another bank. And he said, "Well,

you don't have to start another bank.

You can go back in and

and take Starling back."

And I realized that I'd made a mistake

that I needed

you know, it I desperately wanted to

create Starling. I desperately wanted to

lead Starling.

And I had to take Starling back.

And I lit literally ran out of the

coffee shop and I I can I can see I can

see I can see the street in front of me

now.

And I got in the car, drove into London

um

and took Starling back.

And what did that mean taking it back?

Uh it meant that I had to be, you know,

totally Well, I had to talk to people

and say

that

I had a vision of creating something

which is

an organization that does things in a

right sort of way.

You know, I'd been a banker for 30-odd

years and I was ashamed to be a banker.

And this idea of Starling was to do

things my way.

And I really wanted to

lead the organization to where it is at

the moment.

So, I had to make that clear.

And

I took back Starling.

But the consequence was that I was on my

own.

I was on my own in the office.

You So, you walk back in the office and

say to the team I say to Tom that you're

withdrawing your resignation.

No, um by then they'd refused to accept

my resignation. Oh. Uh because um

It's a long story. I don't want to go

into all the details, but they refused

to accept it because, you know, of

certain things.

Um so, I stepped in and took control of

Starling.

And so, um I heard around this time

you'd also been burgled at home and this

kind of exacerbated, I think, some of

the emotional components of

decision-making. Yeah.

Is that accurate? Yeah. So, you know,

this you know, this happened around the

time with with some burglaries and, you

know, and why you know, why that's in

the book is that

we, you know, we're CEOs, we're leaders

of businesses, we're entrepreneurs, but

we're also human.

And a burglary is quite personal.

And how did how did that impact you and

your decision-making around that time?

That burglary.

I think it was tough around that time.

But

all issues and all things you do

um in a business um

are complex and that was an ad added

complication at that time. Just adds

more to the the mind and more things to

think about and

um makes you feel a little bit unstable,

I guess, though. It's

burglary in your home, I think, has that

kind of psychological

destabilization. Um while you were away

Well, you'd handed in your notice at

Starling and you'd left the office.

While you were away

I guess Tom's running the office.

Per se. Is that accurate? And um

you know, the way that it's framed in

press is that there's some kind of like

coup that's gone on.

Where, you know, control of the

company's been seized from you in like a

kind of low-key hostile man manner. Is

that at all accurate?

I think you have to read the book. Yeah.

You know, there's a

um you know, I

the book is the story of what happened.

Um there were lots of notes and emails

taken at the time.

And this was all written from my notes

uh and emails written at the time.

And I think it's up to the readers to

decide, you know,

what really went on.

And you um you go in and you say, you

know, I'm not going to I'm not going to

resign. Um I want to lead this company.

I've got a vision for the company's

future.

And that means that you have to

fire Tom.

Essentially. That's the decision you

make. You say, I'm the CEO still of

Starling Bank, so

I'm going to I'm going to let let you go

and I'm going to rebuild my own team.

And

the way that, you know, when Tom sat

here and spoke to me, he he says that

you fired the whole team.

Is that accurate? Okay, um the the story

is that um we lost the funding. Um

you can't

if you can't pay people, it's very

unfair to let them work. Um we were very

very honest with the people

that

unless we could raise funding

there weren't going to be any jobs.

And I think it's documented extremely

well in the book about all the ins and

outs and it's quite a story. And so, you

lose funding because Tom's quitting. And

obviously, when people invest in

companies, they're investing in teams

and people and CTOs are a critical role.

The person that's building the

technology. So, that's why the funding

goes through. And you realize at this

point I've got to basically build this

thing back from scratch. Um I'm guessing

you had an inclination that there was a

greater allegiance towards Tom with the

with the existing cohort of people.

No, not really.

No. No. Okay. It was more just you

you basically weren't going to be able

to pay for them because the funding had

been pulled. Um

yeah, so that day, so you, you know,

uh Tom leaves, um the the team are are

are let go as well and they go with Tom.

And, you know, that starts the story of

Monzo and as he's described it, they

start their own bank and that's what we

now call it as Monzo. That day after you

walk into the office, so I'm guessing I

don't know whether it's a physical

office or a metaphorical one, but you

walk in, you're alone pretty much. Is

there anyone else in the room? Is there

anyone else in Starling as an employee

at this point?

That That's me on my own.

Just you. Mhm. And how did that feel

going from, you know, the climb climb,

we're building something here to

ground zero? I'm very good at picking

myself up.

You know, sort of uh at that particular

point um I was feeling, well, I haven't

got the responsibility now of of having

to raise money to pay these people. Um I

can take my time now to find a new

investor. I can build a new team.

And it didn't take long before I was

Well,

uh is it gentleman called Alan Chandler?

Friend of yours? Yeah, who turned up 2

days later At your office.

and stayed and stayed working for no

salary at all for nearly a year.

What was um what had you built at that

point in terms of on the day when Tom

and the the new Monzo crowd had left,

what had you actually achieved as a

company? What what was there technology?

Was there No, nothing from the

technology side had been really done. Uh

we had a banking application. So, when

you when you um apply for a bank, you

have to have a banking application. And

it was in boxes. So, you know, so we had

a banking application. We didn't really

have much tech. Okay. So, your friend

comes in, he offers to do the P45s for

the staff that have just left and just

to sort of give you a hand. Um

and then you start hiring again. A lot

of people would quit at that point.

And a lot of people would give up.

That's a pretty significant blow as far

as I'm concerned. How many people had

left in total? 16. 16 people. That's a

pretty significant blow to, you know,

might be time to go back to the

corporate world now.

Did that not cross your mind? Uh not

really. Um I

I got to a state of having almost having

a banking license.

Um I had the idea. I'd learned a lot. I

knew

what we needed to do.

It didn't take me long

and I was starting again.

You say that like it's so easy, like

it's just so effortless and I know it's

not. It was humiliating, okay? It was

humiliating reading in the press what

had happened.

Because the story's been told in the

press and the story's been told now are

not actually what happened. Um but, you

know, that's history. You got to get on

and you got to sort things out and you

got to move on.

And I was yeah, I was up for it. I was

going to do it again.

You seem reluctant to

uh

correct false stories here.

That's clearly a decision you've made.

Yeah, I think that what I don't want to

get into is he said that, you know, she

said this. You know, I I've written a

book which is um you know, which is a

very accurate account of what happened.

And my side of the story. And people are

allowed to have

different sides of the same story.

That's okay.

Um but I wanted to tell my story. Mhm.

Your friend that stopped by the office

Yeah.

um gave you a hand. How

emotionally

important was that?

And how grateful are you to them?

I will be forever ever grateful to Alan.

Uh I think that the one person to come

in

and

and be somebody who said, yep, this

happened, but, you know, yep, you're

going to start again. That's fine. And I

think one of these symbolic things that

happened was that in the early weeks,

you know, when when they left, you know,

Tom and the team had left all their

debris behind, you know, sort of and

they had a hell of a lot of debris. Um

uh

I went out one day to do some

fundraising.

And when I came back, Alan had collected

all the all the mugs and the odd socks

and, you know, the and, you know, all

the various medications they were all

taking. And and he cleared it all up and

thrown it all away. And the office was

clear of the old world. And we could

start again.

And that was quite symbolic.

And yeah.

It was

I sometimes think if Alan had not come

in

you know, would it have been so easy?

And I'll never know, but that was the

start of a new team. And, you know, that

team, you know, the

the A team.

And the team that left with the B team.

Um

There she is.

Okay.

What's you know, we we attracted people

that were

sought out Starling.

You know, this is one is going to build

a bank and she's going to do all these

things and they turned up and

and they were awesome.

Okay, so the team have left. Anne's

cleaned out the office.

Is there is there not a moment in you

where you you consider

packing it in? Is there not a moment

where you think, "Do you know what? This

is

April the 1st. April the 1st. That's

when

you know, that's when I accidentally

had an email

from the team that left.

Um

and

that

That was difficult. You accidentally had

an email. Yeah.

You weren't meant to be copied on it? Uh

I don't know. I never know whether I was

I was meant to be copied on it or not.

Uh but

they were making fun of me.

And I thought, "Well,

is that the day I'm going to give up?"

But I said, "No. You know, and I went

back in the office the following day and

carried on.

Making fun of you in terms of

your management skills, your something

you'd done or said or very personal

things? No, it's a question of you know,

you have to read the book about it, but

there was a prank about them being

arrested. Um

but you have to read the story to

understand the the the the nuance. But

that was the only day that I thought you

know, can I carry on?

And that lasted an hour.

But I was absolutely determined. Were

you upset reading that email?

I was panicking about them. I was

worried about them. Why?

Um I was worried about

the fact that they could be in real

trouble.

And

yeah, I I hired these people. They were

friends for years.

Uh

they

and I like them.

You can't suddenly um

you can't suddenly cut off all

connection with people that you worked

with even though this thing had happened

to me.

Did it put a fire in your belly that

wasn't there before? Because you know,

events like that can they can kind of

send you one or two ways. Oh, and they

can kind of send you I guess they can

also send you both ways at the same

time, but they typically if we're just

kind of broad strokes, they can they can

devastate you to the point where you you

know, don't get out of bed. Or they can

motivate you to the point that you work

two times as hard.

Nothing was going to stop Starling's

succeeding after that happened.

So it's the

it's the work twice as hard.

Yeah. And did you did you really did you

were there moments like where you you

you know,

you put you just put that extra effort

in and you you know, you became a little

bit more determined because of that?

Like moments you can think of? Cuz I

know that I'm a human being and I don't

care. If I was in that situation, I

swear to God I'd have a picture of their

face on the wall. My team would be

hearing about it every 5 seconds. That's

the guy I am. Like it or not, I don't

care. I do that about all the the

competition we have. I it motivates me

and it is what it is. You don't have to

like me. So I'm I'm asking the question

like did it did they become a a real

significant competitive driving force in

your life? Okay, as a woman you can't be

bitter. Okay? You can't show that

bitterness. Um Why? You can't. You You

have to be you know, you you have to

internally put your energies into

um into Starling.

Um you know, Starling

Starling has succeeded. Starling is a

successful business um that I'm terribly

proud of.

And

yes.

When I I take a lot of inspiration from

other people's books and whatever. Most

most businesses have had a uh near-death

moment.

It It It It It happens so often

that the best businesses, the best

entrepreneurs have had times when they

lost it. They almost lost it, but they

recovered.

And this was mine.

And

uh it played out very publicly.

And um

I learned a lot from it.

And I decided to continue.

And I think Starling and me are better

for all of it.

When you started to rehire the new team,

Yeah. I'm guessing you made different

hiring decisions in terms of

because of what had happened,

did it influence the type of people that

you brought into the business

for the

chapter two?

Not necessarily. Mhm.

I think that

yeah, I I didn't set out to get um

a different set of personalities.

I could focus on getting more qualified

people and higher caliber people

because I had a better business

proposition. Mhm.

It was a year in, 18 months in. You

know, it wasn't a blank sheet of paper.

It was

a fully formed proposition

that had almost raised money Mhm. where

we had an application for the banking

license that was almost fully formed.

So it was less risk for those people

coming in.

Uh and

I also had spent 18 months figuring this

thing out.

I was better at selling the idea. Mhm.

So the second time around I could bring

in a

you know,

I don't want this to be derogatory on

you know, Tom or whatever.

I hired a a a higher caliber

more appropriate set of people for the

problem we had to solve. Okay. Yeah. I

think that's I think that's a natural

thing. I think I think even in you know,

Monzo's business, I'm pretty sure when I

had the conversation with Tom he he

speaks about hiring a you know, hiring a

different caliber of person to meet an

evolving business challenge. Especially

as I know I know particularly in Monzo's

case they did start bringing in people

from like the banking world and stuff

like that. And even in my business I

talk a lot about how I we did the exact

same thing. I at the very start didn't

quite know the caliber of talent that I

needed or the you know, their

experience. And in year three of my

business I realized that the first two

one or two years of hires that I'd made

weren't adequately

uh experienced in solving the problem I

had to solve. And also the type and

scale of problem you have to solve

evolves, right? When you're one or two

years old, it's a different set of

problems to when you're like a thousand

employees, right? So

that makes perfect sense. Pivotal

moments then. So chapter two of Starling

um

funding. Yeah. What was the pivotal

moment with getting getting the money in

the door? It was very very difficult.

Again? Uh yeah, it was very um but two

years in uh I was approached by um a

family office.

And I wouldn't return their calls, okay?

You know, I was absolutely determined

that I was going to have a VC. These

people I knew was going to be in these

well-known firms um or you know, my

investment bankers were going to find me

this sort of investor.

Uh

but I was approached by uh a

uh family office

um that had seen

uh an article about Tom in Bloomberg and

had investigated what's going on in the

new bank scene in the UK

and wanted to talk to me.

And I started conversations with them.

And it took a while for me to actually

engage with them. I'd never heard of

them. And I wasn't going to talk to

people I didn't know.

Anyway, I ended up going on a getting on

a plane to the Bahamas.

Uh that's when you know they're rich.

It was a yacht, wasn't it? It was a

yacht. And uh spent three days being

interrogated by a gentleman called

Harold McPike.

I was an algorithmic trader.

Um and uh he

he asked me the most complex questions

that anybody'd ever asked. He was really

into the detail.

And yes. Uh it happened at 4:00 um

I joined him on his

yacht.

And I think

was this yacht? It's a big yacht.

More of a ship. It was a big yacht.

Okay. Uh and uh yeah, he asked me lots

and lots of questions about me, about

the business.

And it was very very detailed.

And at the 11:15

in the evening

he offered me 48 million pounds for 66%

of the company.

66%? Mhm.

I read that he said he he said something

to you like

I'm not going to give you the 3 million.

Yeah. I was trying to raise 3 million,

okay? I was trying to raise 3 million.

That's all I needed was 3 million to get

to getting the the banking license. So

the idea was to raise 3 million and then

15 million and 30 million. I only wanted

the 3 million. I hadn't raised a penny.

The only money that had gone into the

business was my money. Mhm. So it was

impossible to raise money.

Uh and he said, "Yeah." So he said, "No,

I'm not going to give you 3 million.

I'm going to give you 48.

Christ, that's like Chris Tarrant from

Who Wants to Be a Millionaire.

That's mad.

40 And how did you feel? So, there's two

real things here. That's a huge amount

of money, but that's also 66% of your

business. Mhm.

Tough.

And at that particular point, you know,

that all the other things that you're

working on, all the other leads are

going to

going to go. Yeah. You may have 40, 50

different leads you're working on.

You're going to accept this offer and

sort of somebody else now controls the

company.

But with 48 million, you have a

situation where you can build the test

best tech in the world.

So,

you know, I've been doing this for 2

years and

it was really difficult.

And I had somebody who really understood

what I was going to do.

Was super intelligent.

That actually

believed in my conviction I could do

this.

But I was have to give up 66%.

But it would mean

that I could build something that nobody

else had ever built.

I mean,

in that moment, he's valuing what is,

and correct me if I'm wrong here,

essentially an idea.

Yeah.

It was a 16-page deck. He's valuing a

16-page deck at

72 million.

How long did you have to think about

that decision?

Probably about 30 seconds. Really?

And how do you feel about it? Cuz a lot

of people they look back on those

fundraising decisions. It seems that

every startup entrepreneur regrets how

they valued their business at the start

because they always, especially when it

becomes a multi-billion dollar company,

they feel like they sold themselves

short. How do you feel about it?

He's not listening.

He's too busy in the Bahamas on his

massive yacht.

I think that it is more and more

important to actually create this

vision.

I was so excited that I could now start.

And we eventually signed the deal on the

23rd of December and submitted the

banking license on the 22nd

of December.

It was finally, you know, we could we

could start.

It was hugely exciting.

Did you celebrate?

Well, I couldn't actually celebrate cuz

we didn't actually have a term sheet for

another 3 days.

So, you know, it was on the Saturday

night.

I was flying back.

And I had the term sheet an hour before

picking up the flight.

But once you'd signed the term sheet,

and it was all signed off, did you

celebrate? No, you never you never

celebrate term sheets. Mhm. Uh, you

celebrate getting the money in the bank.

When the money came in the bank, did you

celebrate? Yeah.

Yeah. And what did that How did that

look?

Uh, how did it look?

You look at You open up your app with

Barclays, whatever. Oh, 48 million.

Yeah.

It's It was very exciting.

Bahamas. It was very exciting. It's very

exciting. And

it it allows you to do so much.

Was it terrifying as well?

Was it scary?

It's a lot of responsibility. It's 48

million pounds of someone else's money.

Yeah.

And that's why entrepreneurs that take

external funding

are so committed to do a good job.

There's a huge amount of responsibility

to deliver. Mhm.

You can't just, um,

you can't walk away from it. Mhm. Once

you got that investment, you have to

deliver. It's so important. And how much

money have you raised in total now?

Ooh. 600, 700. 600, 700 million pounds.

Wow.

I could have done so much with that. So,

what have you learned about raising

investment?

Well, that if you were to, you know,

there'll be a lot of entrepreneurs

listening to this, um, who have a lot of

like unhelpful stereotypes or thoughts

about raising investment. God, some of

them will think the only way to do it is

like Dragon's Den.

Right? Um, what would what would you

tell them now having gone through this

process so many times?

Take the money. Okay, so there's a huge

amount of huge amount written about, you

know, you need to go for these sort of

investors or those sort of investors and

you need to pick your investor,

whatever. The vast majority of people

can't pick where the investment's coming

from.

You know, only 1% of venture capital

funding goes to women founders. Right?

So, you know, if somebody offers you the

money,

you've got to take it cuz it comes

around so, so rarely.

And a lot of people worry about

valuation.

Not relevant.

You know, most businesses fail. Most

entrepreneurs don't get their businesses

off the ground not because they don't

have good ideas, not because they're not

good people,

but they couldn't get the funding.

And do you think it's hard to raise

money? Yeah, very hard.

Venture capital is tend to invest in

um,

businesses that look very, very similar.

You know, if you look at if you if you

read Paul Graham's works, Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Graham's works. You know, he talks about

really it it that teams need to look

like this and and things are done in

this sort of way. You know, I would have

never got any Y Combinator

VC Paul Graham funding because I'm not

that sort of entrepreneur.

And a lot of investing by

VCs,

they're looking for carbon copies of

businesses they've invested in in the

past.

And the really great ideas don't get

that investment. And really great ideas

from women founders don't get great

don't get significant investment.

Mhm.

Interesting. But there's a lot of money

out there, isn't there?

Yeah. That's what I've come to learn is

there is a lot of money out there.

There's a lot of money out there when

you're successful. Right. Starling now

is

it is a big business. 1,600 people, 2

and 1/2 million accounts,

um, doing interesting things. Uh, we

have a reputation.

Um,

but the fact that, you know, and

occasionally,

you know, they publish how much money in

the UK has gone to women

founders.

And it's a lot of it's gone to me.

So, so I I think we have to be very

realistic that

you get to a point where

you're a success and people then want to

invest.

But the majority of the time at

Starling, it's been really tough.

It's been really tough. So, what when

you reflect on your corporate career

and you contrast it and compare it to

your entrepreneurial career,

what was the really surprising, tough

part on a personal level?

And this is really why I started this

podcast, you know.

The

All jobs are tough. A corporate job is

very tough.

I think that

being an entrepreneur, it's far more

personal responsibility.

As an entrepreneur, there's nobody that

all the hiring decisions, um, somehow

ended up with you making that first

hiring decision. You know, we have 1,600

people, but those, you know, somewhere

up in the chain, I hired one of those

people. Right? That made that hiring

choice. Um, anything that goes wrong is

is my responsibility.

Um, and all mistakes are probably down

to me, okay? So, there's a lot of

personal responsibility.

And that responsibility

gets more and more as more and more

people depend on it.

But isn't it fantastic?

Isn't it a wonderful buzz, isn't it?

Isn't it wonderful to

to have a platform, really?

I

I fundamentally believe that financial

institutions lost their way.

And Starling is doing the right thing.

And somehow people have said to me that

I've created the organization that I

wanted to run.

Because I quite like running

organizations.

And I wanted to do things in a different

sort of way.

So, finally, I'm running the

organization that I've been wanting to

run for the last 35 years. And that you

wished exist as as existed as a

customer. Yeah. I think that, you know,

I've been very lucky. I I've always had

a great relationship with money.

I But the vast majority of people in

this world

have a bad relationship with money.

It doesn't go well for them.

And

you know, they deserve a better bank.

I went into banking, you know, because I

wanted to do interesting things. I

wanted to come to London and I wanted to

be in tech. But I also wanted to do

something that was respectable,

worthwhile, doing the right thing by

people.

And

banks stopped doing that.

And I'm much more comfortable

being accountable for the organization

that is Starling.

And it helped you to I guess alleviate

that taxi cab shame you referenced where

a taxi driver asks you what you do and

you don't want to say bank out because

there's so much stigma and shame around

the sector.

You're proud to talk about

Yeah, I'm proud to talk about what I do.

I'm proud to talk about Yeah, I'm proud

to talk about what I do and what I stand

for.

And having a bit of a platform to nudge

things in the right way,

you know, I

I'm only a small cog in this whole

world, but if I can do my bit to make

things fairer

in a couple of segments, you know, I

should do that and I'm enjoying doing

it.

You talked about the buck stopping with

you. All problems are your problems or

hiring decisions are ultimately linked

back to you by X degrees of separation.

When you're at especially, you know, the

other part is the industry you're in is

not an easy an easy industry. Customers,

you have millions of like customers that

are you're dealing with their money,

which is the one of the most emotional

sensitive things you can deal with with

any customer.

Um the the emotional toll

must be extreme. I mean, Tom sat here

and it was the first window I'd had into

how brutal uh emotionally brutal fintech

and managing a bank can be. Yeah.

Managing a bank, you know, so yeah, I

listened to what Tom said. And all the

things that Tom said happen in all

banks.

Right, that is what happens.

But it's my job.

It's what I do.

Um

it's what the people I work with do.

And sometimes it's

You know, sometimes you read emails of

people that have been scammed out of

their life savings.

You have emails and you have cases

where, you know, gamblers have lost all

their money.

You have to deal with people who

have lost their son in some tragic

circumstances.

We have a window on people's lives in

all sorts of circumstances.

And we have to be responsible. We have

to be empathetic.

And we have to guard ourselves from the

bad guys out there.

What we do means that we touch people in

all sorts of ways when they're most

vulnerable.

Whether they've lost somebody, whether

they have

you know, they gambled all their money

away or whether they've been scammed.

That's a responsibility.

But it's not just me that has to take

that responsibility. We have

we have hundreds of people that talk to

customers every day.

That see customers when things are going

well and things are going badly.

Um it takes huge amount of energy and

sometimes I'm listening to calls and it

really impresses me how young people,

you know, who are new to their careers,

who

are so empathetic,

so in touch with real people and really

helping them.

You know, I take my hat off to them.

What do you do to protect yourself

mentally from the chaos of running such

a big business that has such a you know,

is dealing with such a sensitive topic

for people. What do you How do you

protect yourself from

not losing your sanity?

Yeah.

I had a great mentor in this,

my father.

My father um was brought up in a home

where um his father was in the First

World War.

And he came back from the First World

War with um what you now call

post-traumatic stress syndrome.

And they didn't call it that then. They

called it, you know, shell shock.

And he he was brought up in that home

where his father was had good days and

bad days and things were quite fragile.

But he had My father had a great way of

talking about uh feelings and emotions

and

what you do

to talk yourself up.

And

and how you make yourself happy.

And we had a home where we talked about

this and how you counted your blessings.

We We weren't religious at all, but how

you how you

how you took energy from what's going

right rather than what's going wrong.

And

he was a great mentor. He taught me

this.

And I think the dedication in my book is