Yeah.

>> So you four months later after all this,

this was the one where you it got put on

the schedule that you were going to meet

with him.

>> Mhm.

>> Okay. And you were already at Ford at

this point.

>> Yeah. No, it was a Ford model.

>> Now you're at Ford, so he had made that

call.

>> Mhm.

>> So you you see his name on the schedule,

you know, you're like, well, I guess I

got to go. What's your what's your

initial reaction though? like oh or like

>> well I just remember calling my agent to

say like I didn't want to go

>> and I think well I think she made a call

to make to probably Katie forward just

to see but I remember her saying oh I

have to go you know he has connections

with secret and things like that so I

think you need to go and remember at the

time I didn't know how close the agency

owner was to Epstein I had no idea they

were sending each other girls um I just

thought well that's funny why would I

have to go see that guy Right.

>> Um,

but I went and I I went to that upper

east side mansion, knocked on that big

door and walked right in and and

>> there wasn't like a moment where you're

like, I'm really about to do this or

were you just kind of like, they told me

I have to do this, I'm going to do this?

Um, of course, there was that thought,

you know, and I know what happened on

the island, so I was nervous about it,

but I just thought, "Oh, well, he helped

me to get into the agency. They said he

was great, you know, and she said, "Oh,

I love Jeffrey, you know, he's a good

guy." And all that stuff. So, I thought,

"Okay, he's a good guy now." So, now in

my head, he did something for me. He's a

good guy.

>> And so, I went and met with him and I

had a really, really great conversation

with him for about an hour. I talked to

him about all sorts of things. and you

know laughed and like you know talked

about my real goals and ambitions again

and um gave me

>> Did he answer the door?

>> No. No. No.

>> Someone else answers, right?

>> No. Like the the butler. The butler

answered the door.

>> Juan Allessie.

>> Probably was Juan.

>> Okay.

>> It probably was Juan. If not, I can't

remember who answered the door the first

time. It wasn't. It was probably one of

the maids.

>> Okay.

>> But they let you in and they seat you in

the room until you're ready to go up the

stairs into his office.

>> Okay. So, so they take you up, escort

you to the office, and that's where you

have this hourlong conversation. What

the second you walked in there before

you have this good conversation that I

do want to hear more about, like

>> you see him for the first time,

what's what's the feeling like

deep breath. Um,

he made me feel really comfortable right

off the bat. So um I felt comfortable

with him I think again like the initial

meeting um just had like a really good

conversation with him just about life

again goals you know um thanked him for

in introducing me to Katie and becoming

a Ford model and he asked a lot of

questions about that and you know what

kind of events and things I was going

did I know a lot of models and he

definitely wanted to know like you you

know, um, how much Iworked and how many

people I knew and just how like deep I

was in the mingling business and knew

people, which I knew a lot of people

then. Um, and so I think that was kind

of exciting for him that I knew a lot of

other young girls. Um,

and we just had like a really good I

just remember a really good conversation

and he was on the phone with um, a

really important person and so he made

it a point to let me know like who he

was on the phone with. I could hear him

talking and

>> and you're not going to say who that

was.

>> Well, he was like a billionaire at the

time and I knew who he was.

>> It recently came out in the files.

>> You know, so I heard him talking to him.

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below.

>> Um, and then he told me like a little

secret about him.

And so he was trying to make me feel

like really comfortable, you know? Um,

it's kind of like I was in like one of

him, one of his people or, you know, he

was really good. So it was just a really

good conversation. So,

>> I thought I thought at the time that

that was going to be it. I thought that

was it. So, I kind of like got

>> You thought you'd never see him again

after that?

>> Well, I don't know. I just thought that

was it. I thought, "Well, that was

great. Thank you, you know, for

everything you did for me. Wonderful."

Like just wanted to get out of there.

Um, and then I just kind of like got my

bag and stuff all ready and I tried to

like get out of there and he just was

like, "No, where are you going?"

And then does it clock back like, "Oh

[ __ ] this is now going to be

>> he was like, "Let's do a massage."

>> Just like that.

>> Mhm.

>> What goes through your head when he says

that?

>> I didn't really have time to think cuz

he was right out the door to the massage

room.

So there goes the next massage. So

that's when I had the next massage,

which was exactly like the first one

without the girl.

I I can't really. This is one of those

situations where you want to try to like

put yourself

in the shoes of someone like that. And I

guess I'm happy to say I can't. But like

I wonder if just the fact that you walk

through the door considering it was 4

months later, he had already abused you.

Now he had you had a job because of him.

He was put on the schedule and you

walked on your own valition to his

place. He was like

gotcha. Like I I can't think of another

way to

is that how you describe it?

>> The only thing that I know is the fact

that I saw someone really important. He

was not allowed to let me out of that

orbit. I was not allowed to be

free without me thinking

he was a good a good guy that I would

never turn on him or talk about him,

>> you know? So, I just feel like there was

a reason why it keeps you in that orbit.

And so, the massage, whether he was

getting off on me or not, I think has to

be done because that's the way of

keeping you silent again.

Cuz I don't understand why he wouldn't

just let me leave. Like why would he

have to? I mean, we know now that he

abused that exact way I'm explaining to

you. Six to eight times a day with with

different girls. Six to eight times a

day.

>> Yeah.

>> He was jacking off two girls six to

eight times a day.

>> And that's what he that's what he liked.

So,

um

I don't really know why he he wanted to

do those things to me. And I really

don't know why

he didn't always do it, but that time he

definitely

did. So

same thing when it was over. Just kind

of like we're done.

>> Yeah. Grab your stuff and leave.

When you walk out of there, is it the

same kind of

I don't know, frozen type feeling you

had the first time? Like just literally

right over again, or is there anything

different this time?

>> Well, it's just confusing because it's

an actual real massage,

right? It's not like, let me just pull

this girl in here and just rape her, you

know? It's like an actual massage. Like,

he's really teaching you how to do a

darn massage. Like, he really needs a

massage six, eight times a day. And then

he has to like it's his thing, you know?

Yeah, but I mean it's that's just like

it's something entirely different

though. Like it may start that way,

okay, but then he's turning that into

something that's not a massage. It's

it's pure rape, but you're not there's

something in your head where you're kind

of like normalizing the fact, well, it

is a massage.

>> No, I would definitely know it was a

violation of my body. Um, but it just

I can't even answer to you why.

Um, didn't I couldn't feel like I could

leave or scream or do anything,

you know? I just was just hoping I'd

never have to see him again. That's

always what I was hoping I would leave

and never have to see him again.

And it's crazy too because you know as a

as a podcaster too like yourself I've

interviewed a lot of Larry Nassar

survivors

>> and

my god their abuse is is the exact same

thing.

>> Jewish guy who treats them like oh you

know this is like our little secret you

know you know I'm helping you out you

know here's little snacks you know like

trying to get on their good side while

he lays them on a table and abuses them

the same way he's a digital abuser. He

never had sex with them. He uses fingers

and tools in their body, you know, and

they were they were just as confused as

too. And the Epstein survivors say, "Oh,

is he doing these creepy massages to

you?" And the Larry Nassar gymnasts are

like, "Is he is he is he is he doing the

same medical procedure to you, too." You

know, that they can tell is creepy and

not right, too. But everyone knows it's

creepy. Everyone knows it's not right.

Everyone knows he's violating you, but

nobody says like, "This is an assault.

This is abuse." Nobody can even say

those words. I never did. They never

did. You know, and it's like it's the

exact same type of abuse they get away

with because they get off on that. They

have control over you. Um but nobody

knows how to identify it. And it's it

comes with massive confusion.

>> Yeah.

>> So when I leave, I'm like confused. The

guy talked to me for an hour. He's like

a mentor. He shared little secrets to me

about soand so. Like

>> he got me with an agency. Like I I like

all these things. And then I'm like,

well, maybe maybe it's not so bad,

you know, and and

I would just justify it like, well,

[ __ ] maybe that's just what we have to

go through as women, you know,

you know that we don't have autonomy. We

don't have we don't have like anything

over our body to say like, "No, leave me

alone. Get off me." It's like almost

really really difficult to say something

like that when you're in those

situations. But you're pretty quickly

like I don't want to say not

rationalizing, but when you're trying to

like understand what's going on, you

that's a thought that's coming in where

you're like, well, I guess I just don't

have control.

>> Exactly. Yeah. I think most of the time

you feel like when you're groomed, you

don't have control. I feel like if he

just dragged me off the street Yeah. I

think that would fight back and things,

but I think after you're groomed for an

hour and then it's a massage and then

it's the assault, then it's like this

whole thing of like, wait a second, what

just happened?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And that's his MMO. That's how he

abused, you know, the majority of these

girls.

You know,

one of the things we don't know a ton

about to this point, and maybe some

people out there, if if you've unearthed

it, you can share evidence in in the

comments. I'd love to review it. But we

don't know a hell of a lot about Jeffrey

Epstein's childhood. We know he grew up

in Coney Island. He had two parents. He

had a brother, but

we don't know of any

like life experiences he had and stuff

like that. So if I assumed for a second

that he was not someone who himself was

abused a bunch because there are

prolific abusers out there who weren't

abused. They just get off on this kind

of thing and do it. Where do you think

that

ability to psychologically manipulate

people like that comes from?

>> It's a really good question.

I would I would think he would have had

to have learned it from someone. I don't

know if it's a family member, you know,

or something you watch on TV. I don't I

just don't know. I mean, it takes years

to get to that stage. I don't think it

just happens overnight,

>> you know, but probably, you know, a

little bit here, a little bit there,

seeing how you can get over people, how

easy it is to manipulate, and then, you

know, just working your way up the

ladder. You can manipulate

someone at, you know, the high school,

then you can manipulate someone in

finance, then you can manipulate someone

in government, you can manipulate, you

know, young girls are pretty easy. So,

um, he used to always say like 25, 26,

you know, that's when the brains

developed. So, he never went over 20,

25, 26,

>> you know.

>> Oh, he would say it like that.

>> Young Yeah. Yeah. girls brain develops

at 25 26. They would never ever even

>> because you can't have any it's very

very difficult to manipulate a woman

when she's hit 26 years old. They're

just, you know, have a different way of

thinking and a worldly view and it's

harder, you know,

>> unless you had pre-existing manipulation

with them.

>> I mean, you can manipulate anyone at any

age. You can be 50, 60 and manipulate.

We see that happen all the time.

>> I understand. But but it's just easier

when you're younger obviously because

it's you know you look up to adults you

want to believe

>> you want to believe them and you trust

them and

>> and if you're making an assault on you

look like it's nothing

>> you know uh

then sometimes it just becomes like oh

it's nothing

>> and in that one-hour conversation he

really did make you feel like oh he's

like kind of a mentor

>> and I was special

>> flipped you and you were special.

What

what about not even necessarily

something specific with what he said,

but what about how he was talking with

you made you feel special?

>> Well, the fact that I was even able to

become a Ford model made me feel very

special. That was very it was super not

easy to become a Ford model.

>> Um, you know, I had worked so hard many,

many years to even get to that stage.

>> And he's no idiot. He's not sending off

some girl at random girls to Ford

Modeling agency. you have to actually be

able to get signed to that agency. It's

special enough to sit in front of him

for that hour, you know, and get the

best advice in the world. Basically, he

advises, you know, billionaires and the

tops of government, and I'm getting the

best advice,

you know, really, really good advice. I

still use to this day.

>> Like what? just business, you know, I

was able to form and build businesses

and um be successful in everything that

I wanted to do probably from a lot of

things that he taught me. I mean, he sat

there and taught me things. It wasn't

just like surface conversation.

>> Do you have a not to put you on the

spot, but do you have like a specific

example maybe with as it relates to

running a business or something like

that that taught you? Um,

well, I guess I could, but I'll tell you

something that he used to say to me with

men.

He used to cuz he used to send me on

auditions and when I would come back

from the audition, I would disappoint

him like if I didn't do anything with

the director or I didn't get the part

and he would say, "Oh, that's just the

way Hollywood works. You have to just

um, you know, let the guy think you're

going to sleep with him. You don't have

to actually sleep with him, but just you

know, you know,

you know, flirt with him a little bit,

put your hand on your on his knee, you

know, be a little bit like aggressive,

but don't have to go there because they

can't sleep with everybody, you know

what I mean? So, he would say, "Oh, you

[ __ ] up." Cuz uh like a lot of times

he would send me on these auditions and

he'd want to know every little thing,

every little thing that happened or was

said, you know, cuz he wanted to have

these things on people and how they

operated and how they were. Were they

straight up like invite you to dinner

and then slowly assault you or do they

straight off assault you? like he wanted

to know everything. So he would try to

tell you how to be with a man, but also

to get ahead like in your career and in

business and things. So

um also he would tell me about

businesses that were coming up that

women could um

whatever you were interested in, he

would tell you, you know, how to

manipulate those situations to get uh

your career. Like I had friends that

were in the art world and friends that

were wanting to be like TV hosts and

things like that and he definitely

showed them how to like manipulate it so

they could become successful. That's why

there's many women today who are

extremely successful who were uh knew

Epstein when they were younger.

Does it feel weird that a guy

so evil

I don't even really know how to say

this, but like so evil

just as like an aside to all the evil

[ __ ] he did would give people like you

something that you might actually still

use to this day.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, he was evil.

>> The people around him were very evil.

>> Yeah. as you can see in the files. You

know, there was a lot of evil uh going

on.

>> Um I'm not sure if he was giving me evil

advice. I think it was just like

business business advice, you know? I I

don't know. I see it as just business

advice. I don't think there was anything

like that was nefarious for me to like

swindle my way through. But

>> that's what I was saying. I should have

said that more clearly. What I'm saying

is he's an evil guy. He does all this

evil stuff and that's who he is. And

then just as a part of his manipulation

tactics on the periphery, he might

happen to throw you a bone of a good

piece of business advice.

>> He told me if you go for any job, the

fact that you're a Ford model, you will

get called in every time. So you make

your resume, put at the top that you

were a Ford model, he said every single

um job that you go for with your resume,

you'll get called in.

>> Right.

>> And it's so funny that it's so funny now

because I'll look at resumes from people

that I know knew him. I'll look at their

resumes that have come up in the files

and it says they were a Ford model

>> right at the top.

>> So he was given this advice out, you

know,

so just little things like that, you

know, that I picked up on, you know,

that you would listen to from any

mentor,

>> right?

>> You know, it doesn't have to be a mentor

that's abusing you. A mentor of mentor,

you know, is giving you life advice

because he's not going to speak on

anything but

>> real things, you know. Um, yeah. I don't

know if I'm like proud of any of that,

but I mean, I'm no stupid girl. If I'm

going to sit there for an hour with

somebody, I'm going to get like the best

information, you know, because that was

the part of making me feel comfortable

enough for an hour later to do what he

wants to do.

>> And also the point you make about

putting the billionaire on speaker,

someone you would know,

>> and like showing you, hey, I can even

tell you about this guy. You can listen

in on him. What do you think I can tell?

It's like psychologically, what do you

think I can tell about you to other

people?

>> And you know what's so crazy too? In the

files, some of the sneak secrets that he

told me, I I could see it's like

validation.

>> Yes.

>> In the files, it's like, okay, wow, that

was true and that was true. I don't

believe there was anything that man said

to me that wasn't true.

>> Anything?

>> No. I I really don't believe he was

bullshitting on anything. I think almost

everything I think everything he said

was true.

Yeah. I don't really see why he had a

lie. I mean, the manipulation, but the

manipulation wasn't in the lies. And the

manipulation was just like he always

came through on what he said he would do

for you.

>> I have girlfriends that went through

four years of university through him,

>> you know, got their jobs through him,

things like that.

>> So, he would keep his promises and stuff

like that.

>> Cuz he can.

>> Cuz he can.

>> Yeah. He's not like, let's take let's

take like the the mediocre

pedophiles and predators out there. They

they give you pro false promises, right?

and they get you in and then they can't

keep you much longer because they're

always false promises because they have

no leverage and no power. This man had

all the power in the world, you know, to

get what he wanted. That's why he could

get these beautiful young women and,

>> you know, and make all these things

happen for them. And then, you know, the

leverage of the underage girls in

Florida, I mean, what was their

leverage? They're in high school, so

it's just money, you know, for their

family. $200 or $300 for their family

goes a really long way.

>> And he would go after poor girls around

there, too. Yeah. Who had parents that

were in jail or drug addicted parents. I

know a lot of them,

>> you know, and they have like major

trauma from all this

>> horrific trauma.

>> No, I mean, I can't even

>> I think the trauma comes worse for most

girls when it had to do with Gain

because it was a woman.

>> Oh, cuz it was just cuz it was a woman.

>> Well, because kind of you can expect,

you know, someone like Jeffrey Epstein

to abuse you. You're he's older man.

What else does he want you around for?

But the older woman, like, what is she

doing? Why is she pulling in young

girls? Why are you doing that to young

girls?

>> Not many women do that.

>> You kind of have to be a monster

>> to go.

>> She's a monster.

>> Yeah. To go looking for hundreds of

girls and then, you know, giving it to

him, giving giving you over to him and

then also participating,

>> you know.

>> Yes. There's a big difference, as I

said, than a Sarah Cullen, in my

opinion. Someone who's probably in her

20s, who was abused, you know, who turns

and maybe made wrong choices. Of course,

she made wrong choices, but Galin is on

a whole different level.

>> Yes.

>> You know.

>> Yeah. And it's, you know, it's also all

the people around though cuz it's a

similar type of psychological question

to ask like what I asked with Sarah, but

did you ever hear the two podcast series

that Tara Pel Mary did back in 2020?

>> One was like the Maxwells, the other one

was Epstein.

>> So Virginia went around with her.

>> Yeah. And in one of the podcast series,

it's literally like a documentary just

recorded, but they go to usually the

gated communities of different people

who were associated with Jeffrey Epstein

and say, "Hey, it's Virginia Robert

Shuay with you remember me and I'm with

this reporter tower pulary. Can we come

in?" And a lot of people wouldn't let

them in.

>> Yeah.

>> Like the chef Adam Perry Lang was like,

"Oh, I remember you Virginia through an

emissary, but I can't meet with you." M

>> the guy Wana Allessie let them in.

>> Mhm. The driver

>> the I guess he was like the housekeeper.

>> I I it's been a while. People go I I

actually do need to go listen to that

podcast again because I cited a lot. So

I I will do that after this. But

>> he not only let them in, he agreed to

let Tara record it.

>> Mhm. And I always say it's one of the

most difficult things to listen to from

like a human perspective because you

feel a million emotions for this guy.

>> You feel anger that he didn't say

anything.

>> You feel

>> empathy for the fact that he was

>> an immigrant who signed this crazy NDA

with these powerful people and then felt

pressured to not say anything. You feel

weird that he's sitting with Virginia,

who he clearly not only remembered and

knew, but liked a lot

>> and viewed her as a real person,

>> and yet you're angry at him because he

turned a blind eye

>> to this stuff. I mean, there's so much

going on.

>> Yeah, but what power did he have to say

anything back then?

>> That's my question. It's like

>> wound up dead or like nobody would have

believed him.

>> That's what I wanted to ask.

>> And nobody nobody listened to to anyone

back then. Yeah. So when you look at

people like that, the gardeners, the

housekeepers, the people that were

around him working on like the staff,

you kind of look at it like,

and correct me if I'm wrong here. What

were they going to do?

>> What could they do?

>> I feel bad for them because I'm sure

they have a lot of guilt and shame about

it. I'm sure they do.

>> Yes.

>> I'm sure they are seeing, you know,

eight girls a day at a house, young

girls coming in and out the doors. I

think they're they're not stupid to know

what's going on. They have to clean up

like dildos and things out of his room.

They know what's going on.

>> Yeah.

>> But they have no power to say anything,

>> you know. I mean, obviously, we wish

they would have. I wish there was some

FBI files that says they made um a

report or something, but it wouldn't

have done anything. They had reports

from hundreds of girls,

>> you know.

>> You see this latest video of the other

butler that they interviewed

>> in '09? I still have to look at this all

the way,

>> but like they it's on tape

>> and he was telling him like what was

going on. I think they arrested him

>> recently.

>> Yeah. No, it's from the files. Steve,

can we pull it up on Twitter? Epstein

Butler.

>> I want to make sure I get it right. This

was like just coming out.

>> Oh, that was coming out in the files.

Oh, okay. Good.

>> Yes. In the FBI.

>> It's on It's in like a gray tape. If we

can find Yep, that's it.

>> Can we pull this up on the screen and

see what what's what? So this is

this is a a formerly secret video of

Jeffrey Epstein's butler trying to sell

a copy of Epstein's little black book.

So I guess it was like

>> Yeah. And then he got in trouble for it.

Why is he doing time, you know?

>> Oh, I'm not laughing cuz it's funny. I'm

laughing.

>> Yeah. No, I saw I saw this one and then

he gets in trouble for it.

>> That's insane.

Is this

I haven't had the words for it that he

goes to jail for that and not the actual

people that were doing things.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, you know the famous line from the

'08 case, Alex Aosta, who later became

labor secretary, he I was told he

belongs to intelligence.

>> He was told that Jeffrey belongs to

intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. That's what he

was told.

>> So, and that means hands off.

Yeah,

>> that would explain the 80 cameras in

every room.

>> But just because you belong to

intelligence doesn't mean you have the

right to like abuse all these girls.

>> It's insane.

>> It's like it's like this godlike thing.

I can do whatever I want to do. And

because

>> you know I have immunity and nothing's

ever going to happen to me, you know?

>> Yeah. Like that's the thing that guy

Alex Aosta has daughters. I believe we

can check that.

>> So many of them have daughters.

>> I know. Exactly. But like

>> but I think so many of their their hands

are tied. They can't even do anything.

That's the problem.

>> He's running that whole case though.

It's like

I don't know.

>> I don't know either. Um I think there's

just some

crazy amount of evidence out there. So

>> Mhm. Lisa, real quick, I just have to go

to the bathroom and then we'll come

right back. Okay.

>> All right. We'll be right back.

>> All right. We're back. So,

God, I have so many questions here, but

I we did get off from the second half of

like after you left the second time from

from his place and you were going back

like where did you go back to that day?

You said you had a full day scheduled

out for you. Did you go back to the

agency right away or do you not

remember?

>> I don't know.

similar kind of like have to

compartmentalize it though again.

>> I don't have no idea. I mean I've not

even thought about where I went after

that.

>> When was the next time you saw him?

>> So during those years like I would

travel a lot for work. So um I always

had the excuse of like not being um

available as much and I tried to avoid

him as much as I could. So there was

there was a few times that I saw him

over the next couple years.

Um, and it was pretty much the exact

same thing I I described in the second

scenario, the second time I went there.

>> So he'd talk to you for a while, somehow

make you feel good again.

>> Yeah. And then then the massage, it

didn't happen every time, but it

happened most of the time. Um, and then

from there it was mostly just

uh

I don't think his thing was to have me

do these massages. I think it was more

so I have an audition and he would send

me on a plane to go to Los Angeles for

an audition and that person uh a big

director was in the vials. So, and then

I found out many years later that other

girls were sent to that same director.

So, it was things like that. And then

there was an episode where he told me to

go to uh it was after a movie premiere

and I went to a like a Hollywood

afterparty

um after premiere party and the owner of

the Ford Mauling agency was also there

with some girls and then uh there was

this like celebrity that was like all

over me and I you know kept saying like

get away from me. He was way way way

older than me um and like gross or cod

or whatever and I was just like leave me

alone. Um, and I was complaining to um

my bookers and stuff from the Ford

agency, you know, that this guy was

bothering me. Um, and then I just we we

left, you know, that restaurant and we

went to a couple other parties and then

I found myself with, you know, Katie

Ford and some other models back at this

actor's house at his suite at his hotel

in the Upper East Side. Um,

and I was in there for a few minutes and

then they left. I was in the bathroom

and I was there left alone and then from

there um I was assaulted by that big

that celebrity very well-known celebrity

in that room. So I at that time I had

just thought well like dumb luck you

know on my part that it ended up that

way. But I ended up finding out years

later through like now we're 2020 and

I'm deposed for cases and I'm telling

stories of what happened to me and my

attorneys are like, "Oh, you've been

trafficked." And then they're like, "Who

did what?" You know, and then all this

stuff started coming out. Um,

and um, I found out during that time

that

um, that Katie Ford had been in on

things with Epstein and that she Epstein

had sent me to her, but she was sending

girls to him. And so I just started

getting really upset about it because,

you know, here I am thinking I worked my

way, you know, and becoming a Ford

model. And now to find out, you know,

there was some ne nefarious, you know,

ways of me becoming a model had to do

with this these agency owners. And then

they were like in cahoots with like

bringing these young girls to parties

around these older men and kind of like

pushing you off to these men while you

just think that you're special and just

hanging out with these people, you know.

Um, and there was a much darker reason

why they were bringing you around to

these places. And so that was that was

really hard for me to to like comprehend

and

know that that's what what was really

going on

in those early years when you're a Ford

model and this stuff is intermittently

happening.

You know, you had said you'd always

wanted to be a model and everything like

that.

Were you able to ever have fun doing

your job too or was the joy taken away?

>> No, I did of course like I loved I mean

we would travel on shoots to exotic

locations, different countries, you

know. I really enjoyed the actual job of

modeling. Um I mean it was pretty

strenuous. I wake up really early. You

have to take really good care of your

skin and your body. I mean it was around

really creative people, you know. Um, I

love the artistic expression of it, but

you know, there was all sorts of things

going on where you were constantly

around these creepy men who, you know,

predatory men. And, um, also finding out

that a lot of the women were involved

never really sat right with me. It never

does when these older women are putting

you, you know, around these older men.

Um,

>> basically, it's basically trafficking

you to these men without without you

even knowing it. Absolutely.

>> And I feel bad for a lot of these girls

who are just trying to live out their

dreams, you know, like I was and uh put

in these situations where they never

really should have been in. So that

episode was really weird. Um didn't find

out what was really going on with that

until just two years ago.

>> Um

there was also agents who,

you know, weird things were going on. So

these model agencies not only were

sending girls to Epstein, they were also

bringing you to these parties around

other older men and they were also um in

with a lot of politicians and like

senators and things like that.

>> So you would see those people there.

>> So I'll tell you about this this I don't

think I've ever brought this up had time

to really tell this story, but so now

I'm a Ford model, you know, feeling

good, you know, living the life, having

a a great career. I would go out often

with Katie Ford and her husband Andre

Balos. Now, Andre was very handsome and

charming. Um, and the girls didn't

really mind him being around um because

he just, you know, he was very

good-looking. Uh, but it was always this

thing of like it's kind of weird like

she's with this guy, you know, and then

we would start seeing him around a lot

with whenever she wasn't around. There

would be Uma was around, you know, with

Herman, the actress. I think he later

married. Um, so there was these things

that were just right in your face.

>> Um, that didn't really make sense why

these adults who were married were

>> right

>> having their mistress or or whoever

right in front of you. There was just

weird things like that. So, one day I'm

at the agency and one of my bookers and

Katie was there and some of the old the

other agents were there and we're like,

you know, we had a guy in the other day

who was like checking out comp cards and

was like, "Oo, who's Lisa Phillips?"

like she's really cute and they were

like um he's a really important person

and you know we think you should go on a

blind date with him and so I was just

like are you serious like I've never

gone on a blind date and they were like

yeah you know you should go out with

this guy and I was just like okay

whatever and so you know they organized

this blind date for me and so I remember

being with my girlfriends by this time I

lived in the Upper East Side and um I

had got ready uh for this date and they

had told me to wear like a really nice

dressed cuz we were going to a really

nice dinner party. And so they had their

hand in all of this for the date. And so

I didn't think anything of it because I

just thought, "Oh, it's going to be some

young hot guy. It'd be fun,

you know, so like stupid back then, you

know, like who who thinks about this

kind of stuff." And so, um, you just

trust your agency. And so I get all

ready. I'm in this like pretty dress.

And then I I go running out. I remember

it was a Range Rover. And I go to open

the door and I'm like,

"Are we picking up your grandson?"

And he's like, "No." I'm like, "Your

son?" And he's like, "No." And I'm like,

"I'm going out with you." And he was

like, "Yeah, like get in. It'll be fine.

Just get in. You know, I know." And he

names the Bookers and stuff like that.

I'm like, "Are you serious?" Like, I

just couldn't believe it because the guy

looks so old.

>> Yeah.

>> Like like a gr my grandfather white

hair. He was old and I was like I didn't

understand it. So I get in the car, you

know, and he ends up being actually

really nice. He's a state senator.

>> Oh, they always are, right?

>> He's a senator. So I'm just like, okay,

this man takes me around the corner,

Upper East Side near Madison and 70s

something around the corner from

Epstein's house. We go into this house

up into an elevator into this this

beautiful dining area and where he seats

me down for dinner and I'm sitting next

to Al Gore and Tippy and I'm just like

this is year this is the year 2000 2001

and I'm just like huh and I remember

like you know I'm I'm pretty c cultured

and whatever and you know talking about

art and politics I have no idea what

these people are talking about. And I

remember after the dinner, you know, so

I just hold my own. After the dinner, I

was like, "Why did you bring me to this

dinner?" I was like, "Aren't you

embarrassed to be there with me? You

know, you're so much older than me." He

was like, "No, this no big deal." And

I'm like, "Are you serious?" And I

remember asking him like, I had no idea

what they were saying the whole time.

And he was like, "Oh, if you just read

the New York Times every day, you'll

understand everything, you know?" And I

was just like, "This is just the

weirdest world."

Um, and then he dropped me off at the at

my house and I remember running upstairs

and telling my girlfriends like, "You

won't believe what just happened." I was

like, "The

>> So, we just did dinner."

>> Yeah, it was just dinner. It was really

nothing. Um, dropped me off. Granted, I

never went back out with him again

because now that I know how it works,

probably would have been abused at some

point, but I didn't. I never went back

out with that guy cuz I just thought,

"How weird is that?" And I remember

going back to my agency like the next

day or whenever I went in there and

being like, "You know, you hooked me up

with a like a 70-year-old man

>> who was sitting next to the dude who I'm

guessing by the timeline had just lost

the most contentious presidential

election ever,

just casually."

>> And why would you bring someone like me,

you know, someone so young with you to

such an important dinner with all like

political people there? you know, the

the climate, everyone that was around.

Why would you be so like candid not to

think like that's kind of I even said to

him, "Aren't you embarrassed of me to be

there with you?" You know, there's

probably like a 50y old I mean a 50 age

gap here. It was just nothing. Now I

understand that why it's nothing, you

know, but uh back then I just was like,

"You guys are weird."

And that was my model agency that put me

on a blind date with this guy knowing

full well and didn't even say to me,

"Look, he's going to be a little older

than you, you know, didn't even like say

anything to me." That's how much like

they just like use and abuse you, you

know, just you're like a little pawn in

their whole little game, you know? They

just don't really give a [ __ ] They

probably wouldn't have cared if I was

assaulted by that guy that night.

>> No, I don't think they would have. Yeah,

>> I think that's probably part of the

expectation

that you were having enough fun doing

the job of modeling and as you said

having these other experiences around

the world and whatever that you were

able to kind of separate those two. But

as someone who spent yours as a model

and then spent a lot of years working in

the industry as a modeling scout, like

looking back on it now and knowing what

you know, are you kind of like this is

such a gross industry? Yeah, I mean this

was Yeah, I mean that's the reason why I

tapped out about two years ago. I was

like done.

>> What was the breaking point?

>> Well, I mean all this stuff was coming

up and I had been through these

depositions uh with Virginia G. Frey. I

was deposed for her case and with JP

Morgan I found out lots of information.

>> Um

>> bookmark that. We'll come back.

>> Yeah. just so many things and I was just

like also sitting in the offices at one

of the most prestigious agencies in the

world and still having girls and boys

come in saying, you know, this person

touched me and this person like tried to

hit on me and this person assaulted me.

I'm like still

like this is still going on. Um where

where's the protection,

you know? And I just was getting fed up

of it. So, I really decided right in

that moment like I'm getting out of this

business and I'm going to go right into

podcasting because that's the thing to

go into right now. I'm going to start a

podcast and I'm going to talk to

survivors. I'm a survivor. I'm going to

start telling my story and I'm going to

listen to survivor stories. Um, and I

just ended up just doing it very quickly

about about two years ago. I just went

right into it and started doing it.

>> Good for you.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, I also have to hook you up with

Sarah Edmonson as well. And I had her in

here. She was really her story was

really amazing too. You guys would do a

great podcast together.

>> Yeah.

>> But do you know

I think unfortunately

when you now see something so blatantly

made in the open and people not going to

prison.

You know, you ask yourself, "Wow, this

stuff's still happening. Why?" Well,

here's why.

>> Because other people look at it and they

go, "Well, look, even those guys don't

go to prison. They were doing cannibal

shit."

Exactly. That's why someone like Pam

Bondi had the responsibility to at least

acknowledge people who have been

assaulted.

Acknowledge them. The fact that you

don't even acknowledge him just spreads

like wild fire throughout all survivors

everywhere.

>> Don't speak up.

>> Yeah. And she's a woman.

>> You're not going to get anywhere.

>> She's a woman, too. That's really like

double. You don't have you have no idea

how many people in the modeling business

have been abused. I mean most models

will be like me two times, six times, 10

times. It happens so much, you know,

with young ambitious women, not just

modeling, entertainment world,

>> music world is even worse. Um, you know,

but anyone who's working their way up

the ladder to, you know, have a

successful career,

>> you know,

>> yes,

>> stuff happens.

>> Goes right back to the manipulation he

did in the first conversation where he

said he asked you about your dreams,

your family, and

>> all the all the good stuff.

>> You're talking about the most preeminent

industry examples of places where that

is what they sell. When you talk

modeling, when you talk entertainment,

when you talk Hollywood, it's like only

a select few make it. You really want

it, right? How bad do you want it?

>> Mhm.

>> And they pray on that.

>> Yeah. And unfortunately, that's how a

lot of the sex trafficking rings today.

That's the foundation of them.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, they they pray on those dreams

and that's how they say, "Oh, well, come

to Vegas. Come to Vegas." And then we're

going to introduce you to the right

people, whether it's a music business or

whatever. and they come to Vegas and

then they're right into the trafficking

ring.

>> How How did you You said you got married

in ' 06.

>> Yes. Mhm.

>> How did you meet your husband?

>> Do we really have to go into that?

>> You don't have to. No. No. Sorry if

that's not something

>> We're divorced.

>> Your ex-husband. Sorry.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um

I mean I mean I was in Malibu.

>> It's a nice place. We don't have to talk

about that. I had a beautiful, you know,

I just it wasn't

>> I didn't I hadn't I hadn't um confronted

>> um my trauma. I hadn't gone through

therapy and stuff. So, I brought a lot

of that into the relationship, chose

someone who

>> um didn't end up being a very good

relationship for me. And so, um I ended

up raising my children all by myself.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. I ended up leaving Yeah. I ended

up leaving him and moving to New York

again in in 2011 with two two young boys

and um just realizing I have to do it

all myself. Ended up going kind of back

into the modeling world and many of the

people that I knew helped me out and I

started a scouting agency um and

protecting models uh finding models and

managing them and placing them with big

agencies. So I was pretty successful

working in that business and I had two

little babies at the time and

>> and then found out a few months later

that I was pregnant. Um

and um that was really difficult for me

because I already had two young babies

by myself and and realized now I was

pregnant same father but

>> didn't even know I hadn't even shown or

anything you know and I was three and a

half months pregnant.

>> So I ended up raising three boys three

young boys on my own.

>> That's amazing though that you did that.

>> Yeah. I can tell you through my 30s,

entirely through my 30s, never was in

any relationship. I raised my boys early

from my 30s to to till I was 40 years

old. Raised my kids all on my own. It

was the best years of my life, but the

hardest years of my life, you know, here

in in New York City. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It wasn't until 2017 I moved with my

kids. I I always promised my kids like,

"Mommy is going to make it. she's going

to take care of you and we're going to

move to Los Angeles and we're going to

have a view of the ocean and we're going

to have like the best life. And in 2017,

I made that dream come true for them and

moved them to Laguna Beach.

>> Oh, it's awesome.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> A little different than New York City.

>> Yeah. I just wanted to be near the ocean

and, you know, have little surfer babies

and have that beautiful California life.

And so, you know, I was able to give

that to them, you know. Um, yeah. But it

wasn't until I was 40 when I started

dating again. my kids were a little

older.

>> So when you're when you're raising them

on your own for all these years though,

like you said, you weren't confronting

what had happened to you and everything.

Did it change obviously like you're you

were you revolved your whole life around

your kids and and made unbelievable

sacrifices for that and are clearly a

great mom. Did it change at all how you

look at your kids from like a protective

mother standpoint once you went back and

thought about the things that had

happened to you and then kind of looked

at them like oh my god

>> oh yeah I'm very protective mom but I

mean I want have I want to have

independent children you know and I want

them to think for themselves and do

whatever they want to do in their lives

and I will always support them 100% but

I'm very protective of them um

I mean as any parent should

Um but though through those years it was

just them and and me you know it was

really really beautiful. So um I didn't

have any relationships and I didn't want

to you know I had a failed marriage. I

just chose really the wrong person for

myself. We had nothing in common.

>> He was Norwegian descent and you know

didn't really bond with them and

basically kind of gave them up in a way.

And so, you know, I was in survival

mode, I think, through my 30s. Yeah.

>> Building a business and basically in

survival mode, just all by myself,

>> living in New York City, which is not

cheap.

>> Um, you know, and really did it all on

my own. And it took me about two or

three years. And I, you know, had a

successful business and I managed tons

of models and and um really enjoyed it.

and then was offered a position, you

know, at women management and the

industry industry models to be the head

scout. And then I started traveling

around the world again um as a a scout

for a Japanese agency and that's when I

started going to all these countries and

>> and you know doing the big scouting

work.

>> You get to take your kids with you

>> uh for some but but not really. They

were young.

>> Yeah.

>> Um thank God for my mother-in-law. She

she would come and stay with the kids

and stuff. Thank God for her. I would

never have been able to have, you know,

the career that I had without my

in-laws, you know, taking care of the

kids.

>> Oh, so they're great. They stayed in in

your life.

>> Yeah. I was Yeah. I mean, um, wasn't so

great in the beginning, you know, when I

left their son, but, you know, after a

while, they they love their grandkids

and they were there for them. And

>> anytime I would leave for, you know, a

week at a time to take care of business

and travel the world, you know, for my

job, they would take care of the kids

and I was so grateful for them. Yeah.

That's cool.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I didn't mean to step into

something personal there with with your

husband. The the only reason I was

asking

>> I just never ever talk about him. So

>> yeah, that absolutely fine with me. The

the the only reason I was asking about

that in general was because I was trying

to figure out what you know mentally got

you to a place to be able to trust

someone enough to date them seriously

and then marry them in the short years

after

you know you're being abused by Jeffrey.

Like you said, the last time you saw

Jeffrey was 04. Is that right?

>> Yeah. And I and I left straight to Los

Angeles. I was an actress. I had, you

know, one of the best managers and

talent agencies. I was auditioning,

you know, um, you know, I I I loved I

loved being actress and a model. I

really really loved it. I just never

really liked, you know, what I was

really up against,

>> right?

>> Which was, you know, it's a nefarious

business. It's it's not a very upfront

and honest business. um there's a lot of

people that just want to take advantage

of you and I could clearly see that. Um

because of the level where I was what I

was working at and the friends that I

knew um I could clearly see what was

going on and I didn't like it and so you

know my husband you know he was

Norwegian descent um and it was a sweet

man and he was in commercial real estate

and I really believed in him and I

really thought I was you know going to

marry him. I mean, let's face it, I was

pregnant, but I I was trying to make

things work with him. You know, I really

wanted things to work and and be with

him, but um you know, found out very

quickly that, you know, wasn't going to

be a really good relationship. So, it

wasn't really my choice, you know, not

to be with the father of my kids, but it

just um was just, you know, the way it

happened.

>> Yeah. Now, you had talked about like

over these years you see Jeffrey very

intermittently and sometimes there's

abuse, other times there weren't. Would

would there be something like in a time

where you went and talked with him and

had a conversation where it didn't end

in abuse? Would it be because it's in a

public place or something like that? Is

that the only reason it wouldn't happen

or

>> I think the only reason why it didn't

happen was because there was someone

else there that he could abuse. Oh.

Like for instance, I was brought to his

house for a couple parties. He would

call me like, "Oh, I'm out with my

friends. I'll bring your friends." You

know, that kind of thing. And just

naively just being, "Okay." Like

thinking it's another like party to go

to.

>> Um but then you'd walk in and you go up

until like the the I guess it was the

the li the library with a big table and

there was just all these old men sitting

around like these nerdy old men. It's

like, "Okay, why are we here?"

>> You know, stuff like that. You know,

Gain would be there sometimes, you know,

but they would be much older men.

>> Did you ever talk with her at length?

>> I I mean, I met her. Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, well, I mean, she was from or went

to school in Oxford and I lived in

Oxford growing up, you know, when I was

young and so,

>> you know, had some conversation with

her. I mean,

>> what did you think of her?

>> I mean, she was very charming and

eloquent and, you know, beautiful and

stylish and definitely was charming and,

you know, just that's all I thought

about her. I didn't really think

anything else.

>> Um I didn't really know anything back

then about her like like we do now. So

>> um but she was very much interested in

getting to know the other girls, you

know, and or she was definitely an

organizer of

>> the only woman there with a bunch of

men. Um so definitely like the organizer

of of the girls being introduced to the

men or I saw a couple friends like

sitting on their laps and things like

that and it was definitely a flirty

environment. I mean, I found out years

later I one of my friends was brought

into the room a room with one of the

other men and assaulted and things. So,

um,

>> how did that make you feel when you

found that out?

>> Well, it wasn't didn't make me feel

good, you know, since I had brought them

there. Um,

it made me feel really bad about that,

but I I didn't know then really what

happened. This was years later I found

out about it. So it wasn't really told

like we weren't really like I said

nobody really

>> said anything about it back then.

>> What

when when you would be invited to a

party like this and then they'd say

bring friends and then you do

and you've had bad things happen to you

but then you also said you had that

other side of the relationship where

he's like oh he's kind of a mentor and

helping my career. Is that like kind of

looking back on you as as as a young

very young woman when this was

happening? Is that kind of what made you

be like, "Yeah, it'll be fine. If

they're there with me, it'll be fine."

Like, is there that thought in your head

that like nothing will happen if it's

all of us there?

>> No. Well, not really. I just I just knew

that

anyone who knew him

benefited from it. I would say that they

got kind of what they wanted. So, a lot

of times they wanted to meet him. So,

like a lot of times I didn't want to

introduce my friend, but it's like, "Oh,

your friend helped you get that. Can I

meet him?" It was like that kind of

thing, you know, and so these are my

really close friends. It wasn't like I

went and

>> picked somebody off in in the street and

they're like, "Okay, meet coming in."

These my really good friends like,

"What? you know, you got to go to NYU,

you know, or you got to, and it's like,

oh, well, okay, if you want to meet him,

like knowing, well, well, he does like

these creepy massages and just so you

know, you know, like it was kind of like

that.

>> You did say that

>> sometimes, you know, um, but I don't

think I ever thought or knew that they

would be assaulted. Sometimes you, and a

lot of survivors say this, like a lot of

times you think it's only you

>> because they're not saying that it

happened to them, you know? So, um, I

didn't really know the extent of these

assaults until, you know, modern day. I

didn't really know then what was what

was really going on with them. I mean,

sometimes you would ask them and they

would say no. So,

I didn't

You have to understand the way we think

about Epstein today is nothing like we

thought back then. A lot of people just

didn't really talk about him so much.

>> That's right. You didn't even have the

top of the iceberg scraped back then.

Yeah, until it became a conversation.

That was that wasn't until late 2003,

early 2004 when it became a

conversation.

>> I think it was even after that, right?

>> Well, well, he was still involved with a

lot of my friends and other people 05

06. But for me, I was out early 2004.

>> Okay. And it was only because a

girlfriend of mine came to came to me

and said that she was abused through

Jeffrey, you know, and she said she said

she went to go see him on the Upper East

Side apartment. I guess mansion. Um I

guess

>> it had never been that bad, but there

was a situation where he had told her

with that that demon look in his eyes

like, "You need to go in that room right

now and you need to have sex with with

him." and she was scared and she did it.

She went into the room and somebody came

in, had sex with her, just dismissed her

and left. It was a kind of this quick

thing which [ __ ] her up, you know, cuz

that wasn't what she was wanting or

expecting. And then from there, that's

when that's when everything opened up

because then she was the first one to

say, "This man made me do something."

It's like, "What? Like he made you?" And

then we started questioning like well I

wonder if like when he would call us to

go maybe that's what he wanted us to do

you know but this is this was like a

force thing with her like Virginia Frey

explains in her book go do that you know

um and so when she said that she was

just like you have no idea who Jeffrey

is and like what are you talking about

like what do you mean and so we called

the friends over we're all talking like

what do you mean what did he make you do

what what's going on here so it was more

of like this oh my gosh Gosh, are you

serious? This this type of conversation

that we never had before. So, this is

three or four years in.

Um,

>> so now you hear it from other people.

>> Yeah. And things are unraveling. Yeah.

>> So, it's a completely different um way

of thinking about this man.

Did you guys at any point in that

conversation when this is coming out,

did someone suggest to call the police

or something like that or was it assumed

that it's like, yo, this guy's powerful.

We got to stay away.

>> Well, we talked about it um about

contacting the FBI. There were there was

definitely talk about it, but nobody

wanted to do it.

>> We just wanted to to what we talked

about was just the best way to get away

from him so we didn't have to see him

again. That was just what we spoke

about. I'm not I'm not quite sure if she

ever saw him again after that. I'm

thinking no because she moved away after

I moved away. We all just try to get

away from New York where he knew that he

spent most of his time.

>> And he would before this though he would

like call you you were saying too. So

that would be a lot of the contact where

he's like go meet with this person in

Hollywood or go do this audition then

ask you about it afterwards. That was a

lot of your communication with him,

right?

>> Well, in person, yes. Or maybe a phone

call. That's when he was pretty serious

cuz he's right to the point.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, but sometimes it would be the

secretaries calling for things and you

would you would have the chance to say

no or I'm out of town or tell them I'm

out of town,

>> you know, and maybe they would just try

to hound somebody else to do something,

you know. Um, I never really

thought that those horrible things were

happening. I just kind of thought, okay,

if he sent me for an audition and I was

assaulted or somebody tried to have sex

with me that it was just that separate

situation between the two of us. I had

no idea that it was because of he was

sending me for that reason. I just knew

when I got back, I always thought it was

strange. And even at Capito Hill, when I

talked to all the girls and we sat down,

I would say, "Did he groom did I would

say, "Did he ask you whenever you got

back from meeting with anyone exactly

what happened?" And they were like, "Oh

my gosh." He wanted to know exactly

every single detail of everything that

happened from the moment you sat down

with him and talked to him, how he how

he approached you, if he tried to

assault you, if he tried to, you know,

what he said. Every single one of them

said the same thing. And we're just

like, "Wow, that's what I always thought

because I always thought it was weird.

He would ask me so many questions about

one little inc incident about one stupid

audition, you know, but then there were

girls sent to the same audition.

So you So let's take a director, right?

He's getting auditions from innovative

artists and Abram's artists and all the

different agencies they're sending, you

know, their talent to spec specifically

for this role. But then Epste is sending

10 girls.

Yeah,

>> there's a difference that he's sending

these 10 girls, you know, for an

audition. He's not a movie agent, you

know what I mean? So, that should have

been the first red flag right there, but

people are introduced to directors.

Doesn't matter who you are. Um,

I think back then I was just excited to

go on audition with a really big

director, right?

>> Yeah.

I had asked you earlier

where people maybe if they aren't abused

learn to groom like that and you said

someone has to teach them and

there is a lot of evidence that one of

the people who taught Jeffrey Epstein

about this stuff was admin Kosigible

that's a separate issue but what you're

saying right here and I'm not saying

this to make light of it at all I'm just

drawing a parallel is a sadistic version

of like an NFL coach watching a lot of

tape and learning every single thing

about the other team when he would call

you and ask in my opinion just hearing

you describe it and ask you about every

single thing that happened. He's

studying

>> to see what the other person does or if

they were cuz you said he would say to

you like, "Oh, he didn't do anything or

something like that." And then he'd be

like disappointed or something. So

>> the disappointment might have been so

sick that he's like, "Oh my god, they

weren't good enough to get her to do

like

>> Yeah. Could be on that. Oh, that's a

level of depravity that's uh a little

beyond

beyond the bill. Wow.

>> Have you have you f Did you follow the

Diddy case at all?

>> Yeah. Mhm.

>> Did any of that surprise you?

>> Did he?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, I mean, in the early 2000s, Diddy

was around a lot and everybody knew

about his parties you didn't want to go

to. I mean, there were the white Well,

there were the white parties, you know.

>> I mean, I went to a white party. I mean,

everybody wanted to go to the white

parties, but like

>> um you know, the after parties I never

went to or um most people I know didn't

go to those and and they had a

reputation of you didn't want to go to

those parties. So, that was very well

known back then. I also knew like a club

club owner that used to say that you

know

he's gone to those parties and and you

know about the bisexuality and things of

Diddy and stuff. It was pretty well

known back then. Very open.

>> Yeah, it's pretty well in the music

industry back then um that a lot of

those men were doing those types of

parties and stuff. So the different the

difference with with Shan Combmes is

that he drugged. There was a lot of

drugs around.

>> And with Epstein, he liked you to be

very present and there was never any

alcohol or drugs around.

>> So you never saw him drink or anything

like that

>> or he would never give you drugs or

alcohol.

>> He wanted you to be present and he hated

drugs and alcohol.

>> Yeah.

>> Like he looked down on you if you did

them.

>> You know, that's the difference with

Pittdy. I think there was lots of drugs

and alcohol involved. I mean, I think

there was even drugs in the baby oil,

>> right? So I think there was it was very

different. um environments,

but still, you know, sadist abuse, you

know.

>> Yeah. Now, when you met Virginia Robert

years later, right?

>> Mhm.

>> Well, actually, before I get to that,

cuz you've mentioned it a few times that

I think we should talk about that. when

when he

first did you know that he got arrested

in ' 07

08 and that case happened. Were you

aware of any of that?

>> Yes, of course.

>> At the time.

>> Mhm. I just didn't follow it closely.

>> Okay.

>> And I didn't pay like a lot of attention

to it. I definitely didn't pay a lot of

attention to it.

>> So, you didn't know the details of like

there were 43 12 and 13 and 14 year olds

coming.

>> Did anybody know that then?

>> I don't I don't think so.

>> So, no. I just knew that they were

underage girls. And then I would speak

to some of my friends about it. Gosh,

did you know that Jeffree was with

underage girls? And then

and then um I had to remember there was

this one time that my girlfriends and I

we flew on a on the airplane down to

like West Palm Beach and we were

supposed to be going to Miami. We ended

up in West Palm Beach and um

I remember one of the girls Reena Oh,

she's been pretty outspoken.

>> I remember. And yeah, Reena called

Jeffrey and was like, "Oh, we're

stranded in West Palm. You know, we need

a we need a ride." And he had he

organized a car to pick us up to take us

to Miami. And when we got into the car

to take us to Miami, there was a really

young girl in the car. And I remember we

were just like, "Why is she here?" Like,

that's so weird. Um, and I remember we'd

always spoken about it. Why was that

young girl in the car? And then now we

know why there was a young girl in the

car. But um that was the only thing that

I ever saw that would I would never have

thought that he was into anyone

underage.

He was very very adamant if any of the

girls that were around were over 18. And

that's what I always saw

>> and that was that's what I always

thought anyway. They could have been

underage but I never knew. Um the girls

on the island I found out were underage

but I never knew then that they were

>> the ones you were there with. M

>> I never knew they were. I mean, I'm sure

maybe they were told to lie and say they

were overage or we probably didn't even

talk about it.

>> That's the thing. That's the thing about

like the blackmail and stuff like

>> Mhm.

>> All you got to do if you want to

blackmail someone like that is let me

think of a really blatant example

because I don't know how this would

work, but you have rooms came up. some

guy goes in to have what, you know, even

on camera might appear to be consensual

sex, but let's actually assume it's not,

but it might appear that way in a court

of law. You might be able to make the

argument.

>> But if someone comes in afterwards and

pulls out the driver's license

>> or the passport or whatever

identification of that person and just

holds it up to the camera,

>> you're [ __ ]

>> Yeah.

>> It's done. Mhm.

>> And so there are people because it's so

hard to skim through all this and be

like, could this person be innocent?

Could everyone just looks guilty and you

and you just want to go off with all

your heads.

>> But there are people who have said like

people who are viewed as as perpetrators

of this stuff who have said exactly what

you just said, which is

>> I always saw them with young women,

>> but I never saw them with a 12 or

13year-old or 14year-old or something

like that. They were always of age. And

so I was like, all right, whatever. And

it's like when I hear people say that,

I'm like I could see how the fog

>> sets in. But to me, it's like

looking at it from their perspectives.

>> All right. You going to an island with

the guy

>> and it's you and him and like a few

housekeepers and like [ __ ] 10 women.

That's not a little weird.

>> Yeah, exactly. Even even just even just

the 16 to 22 year olds that are on the

island,

>> you know, is a little weird to have a

whole bunch of young girls on the

island, you know. Do do these men even

know that their passports are taken away

and they can't leave until he says they

can leave?

>> That's crazy.

>> You know, stuff like that.

>> Who took your passport again when

>> Well, um Well, Epstein would take the

passports of the girls when you go to

the island

>> personally.

>> Yeah. So you So you can't get away.

Yeah.

>> Oh man.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, people don't know all this

stuff is going on and and you don't

really know which men knew of young

girls or they're really young girls. You

just don't know until you read the files

and you do an investigation, you know? I

mean, you have Bill Gates saying, you

know, I had sex with a Russian girl. Was

it a 16-year-old Russian girl or was it

a 22-year-old?

You know,

I mean, she's not coming forward, but

like

what do you know? You know, you got a

STED from her. you know that was

>> that you're trying to hide from your

wife. I mean I love Melinda Gates.

>> Oh, she's gone.

>> Oh, I love her. She's just going off.

And that's what we need. Women who say,

you know, enough is enough.

>> She's an Epstein survivor, you know.

>> Well, yeah.

>> She survived him.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, because her husband was locked

in there and saying all these years,

"Oh, I just don't know that guy that

well."

>> The best line ever. He's like, "Well,

he's dead." So,

>> yeah, he's dead. Yeah. You think you

think all your skeletons in your closet

go away just cuz he's dead?

>> That's not an answer, my man.

Oh my god. Oh, it's so bad.

>> When did you Did you not meet Virginia

Roberts until 2019 when

>> Yeah. Well, I never actually met her in

person. I've only spoken to her on the

phone a few times. Yeah. I reached out

to her because she spoke out in 2019

about Prince Andrew,

>> right? And I reached out to her because

I knew of two things about Prince Andrew

and I wanted just to corroborate her

story or support her. The first one was

seeing him on the island and the second

one was my girlfriend. She was made to

have sex

>> and she told me it was a prince.

>> Was that the one who went into the room?