Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

Um, I was like, there's only one way

[music] to do this. I've just not drank

for a while. So, I took like eight

months off and then I had like a

margarita dinner once. So, I was like, I

missed this. And then had a glass of

wine here or there.

>> I was wondering how that was going to

hold up.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. But but you're not c I know that

you're not captured by it.

>> No, no,

>> neither am I. But our religious

observance requires it.

>> You require abstinence or drinking?

>> No, we drink.

>> What? When do you have to drink?

>> Shabbat. Every come any Friday.

>> How much do you drink? One Shabbat.

>> I probably have two and a half glasses

of wine.

>> Is there like a number that you're

supposed to hit?

>> Cup to be what? Well, that's purum.

>> What is

>> We should get into porum.

>> We're getting into it. Do we need

glasses? You want to have a drink? Uh,

usually I you you and I tend to go a

while, so we usually do that at the end.

>> Well, let's let's get some ice and some

glass. Are we rolling already?

>> I've been roll. Yeah.

>> Okay. Let's get some Tell Jeff to get us

some ice and some glass and a bottle of

>> Hope I didn't say anything wrong.

>> Um, Buffalo Trace.

>> Do you want to wait till I get back to

start because we either haven't started

or we started.

>> We started. [ __ ] it.

>> We started. Let's just roll. We'll get

Jeff to do it.

>> What's that?

>> I don't even have headphones.

>> Are we rolling still? Are we doing

headphone [ __ ]

>> We can headphones. No headphones. I

don't give a [ __ ] We We mix it up.

>> Okay.

>> You know what? Do you do you Are you

more comfortable? You got a nice head of

hair.

>> Like for me it doesn't matter. I feel

bad when people like work on their hair

real good. Like especially ladies and

they get it all nice and then they have

to [ __ ] smush it with this thing.

>> Okay. If you ever have that kind of

consideration for me, I'm going to be

very disappointed. I thought we were

closer.

>> Some people worry about that.

>> No, I worry about the the gray

>> that you have gray in your hair.

>> It's Yeah. Look at

>> Well, you're like pretty dark for your

age. How old are you now?

>> 60.

>> Yeah, you're you have [ __ ] dark ass

hair for your age. If I let my if I had

hair and it grew out like my side hairs,

[clears throat] it's mostly gray now.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. You get some gray hairs a little

bit. What's up?

>> I should have thought ahead like you

did,

>> but shaved it.

>> Yeah. Shaved it when everyone knew it

wasn't gray and then it's just normal

cuz like it's very clear if I shave it

now. I think you can avoid gray hair

with proper supplementation. At least

that is the the thought today that with

uh enough zinc and copper

>> and that that somehow or another that's

involved in the diet. I don't know. I'm

talking out of my ass here. I don't know

that much about um what causes your hair

to go gray.

>> This is Austin T.

>> Other than this is Buffalo Trace, older

than America.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. This is a a distillery from 1773

I believe they started.

>> Wow.

>> Them apples, huh?

>> It's like that Chinese sounding beer

yunling or something. Cheers, my friend.

>> Buffalo Trace is like by Is

their beard really old? Beer really old.

>> Um, they have a old beer.

>> Yodling.

>> Is it old as [ __ ]

>> Jamie knows everything. I feel a lot.

You know, people

>> 1829.

>> You see? Oh,

people say, "I have this AI. I'm using

Claude. I'm using uh Chat GPT."

>> I use Jamie.

>> Jamie, right? For sure.

>> Oh, he's AI. He's way way better than AI

because he's kind of psychic. You're a

little psychic, right?

>> A little bit.

>> Well, I mean, I've listened to you talk

a lot. [laughter]

>> My My theory is is that he also looks

ahead. He knows sort of where you're

likely to head, so he's got it ready.

>> 100%. He knows how my goofy [ __ ]

brain works. Yeah, for sure.

>> Good to see you, my brother.

>> Good to see you. Hello Joe.

>> How was your uh your what what what was

it exactly? How would you describe it? A

speech uh pres a talk on dark energy uh

to the uh KCH group at the UTX Texas

Austin physics department.

>> This is one I wanted to ask you about.

Mitchaku has been saying that he

believes that dark energy is possibly

something leaking in from another

dimension. Is that Look at that face.

Look at that. [laughter]

He gave go on.

>> He gave a little side eye. Well, let's

see what he says. Jamie, see if you can

find that, please.

>> I think he said it was gravity from

different colonies and put them together

as a kid just to see what happens.

>> Did I? No, I never did that.

>> I [clears throat] did that.

>> Oh, why? Just watch him fight. Oh, yeah.

>> Oh, you [ __ ] psycho.

>> Yeah, a little bit.

>> No, I never did any of that.

>> You were saying about me, too?

>> Yeah, that he uh I I just I didn't even

read it. I just saw it and went, "Oh,

Jesus, I got to talk to Eric about this.

>> [laughter]

>> I mean, she she just dark matter isn't

matter at all. It's gravity leaking in

from a parallel dimension.

And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't

that wild? [snorts]

>> Uh,

what do you think about that?

>> You remember when I was here and I said,

"Get Moaku in here with me."

>> Yeah. What What is it What it is about

Well, clearly he's a brilliant guy.

>> He He is and was a brilliant guy. he's

decided to do something else. And to be

entirely honest, I don't love going

after other named people. In general, my

shtick is that I go hard after

institutions. I'm a huge institutional

supporter and their worst nightmare in

the current world. Individuals I don't

like beefing with. I I watch all of the

energy, the beauty of life lost to

beefing with people. Mitchak is doing a

tremendous amount of damage to

theoretical physics. How so?

Um,

theoretical physics is in my estimation

the most beautiful, most powerful, most

economically potent thing you can do

with your life. And we are the best. The

United States is in my opinion the

greatest nation in the history of the

earth for theoretical physics because we

are cowboys. We are irreverent.

We are the we are the people who

invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs,

the semiconductor.

Uh

this is what we do and we've lost the

ability to do it at an at a level that I

cannot believe happened during my watch

my lifetime. So from 1984 to the

present, those 42 years have been the

greatest intellectual

implosion I think that I know of where

people just got dumber. And what do you

think is the cause of that? I'm going to

describe this uh humidifier.

>> Quantum gravity.

>> Quantum gravity did.

>> Yep. Mhm. In 1984, there was a result

>> and it's called the Green Schwarz

anomaly cancellation.

And the guy that I've talked to you

about before in UFO context, the guy who

is Lewis Whitten's son, Lewis Whitten,

happy happy birthday. Turned 105.

Um was the anti-gravity guy from the

50s. his son Edward Whitten decided that

the 1984 Green Schwarz anomaly

cancellation meant that we should all

all the smartest people should pile into

one narrow subsp specialty and that that

was the future and because he was so

much smarter than all of us, people

listened and I didn't. And Mioaku is

part of his wave. Almost all of the

people that you've traditionally had on

in physics

have some connection to this. So you've

had on I don't know probably Sean Carol,

uh Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brian Green.

Nobody wanted to say what was happening

which is that we were we were being

unraveled and destroyed. our ability to

be the world's greatest theoretical

physicist was being

eroded year by year for 42 years.

>> And specifically, it was the pursuit of

string theory.

>> It's not string theory itself that's the

problem. String theory is harmless. It's

just a bunch of equations, a bunch of

ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in

many places. So, um, that's not an

issue. The issue is the exclusion of

everything else.

And this goes under the name Togeit or

the only game in town to Og T.

>> And it's this idea that only we the

enlightened

can do theoretical physics and the rest

of you are just doing finger exercises

and you're too stupid to know it.

>> So specifically like what is

what what's isolationist about string

theory? What is it about this one

particular theory that all this thought

has been pushed into that?

>> The claim is

that there's this thing called UV

complete physics and there's no way that

we can have a discussion about that

directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I

impose upon you to call up on YouTube

Wheel of Fortune and then use I've got a

good feeling about this. I can explain

it to you.

>> Wheel of Fortune. I've got a good

feeling about this.

>> I've got a good feeling about this.

>> Okay. Is that an episode of Wheel of

Fortune?

>> It'll be over briefly. It's very very

quick. It's about a minute and a half or

something. And the key point is it's a

tight analogy for the problem faced in

physics that anyone can understand. So I

don't people think I try to make things

complicated. I really try to make them

understandable. But what I do is I talk

about things I don't know that you've

ever had anyone talk about UV

completeness on the Joe Rogan.

>> I don't believe so.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> I said. Okay, put your headphones on.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, you're not going to be able to

hear it unless you have headphones on.

>> I know it like the back of my hand.

>> Wheel of Fortune.

>> Uh, we need a phrase this time as

category for this puzzle. And it is a

prize puzzle.

[applause]

Go ahead, Rick. Gladly.

>> [applause]

>> And what do we get here? 500 R.

>> Well, you'd think there'd be an R in

there somewhere, wouldn't you?

Obviously, you called it, Caitlyn.

[applause]

[applause]

>> L.

>> Uh, one L.

[applause]

Did

>> you really?

>> What's that?

>> Can I solve?

Okay.

>> It is a prize puzzle.

>> Yeah.

>> I've got a good feeling about this.

>> That's right. [screaming]

>> THAT'S INSANE.

[applause and cheering]

>> That lady's a wizard. That lady is what

I want to do with my life. That that is

what great physics looks like. It's

totally irresponsible. [snorts]

And you know, Pat Sjack is like trying

to ask her like, "How'd you do that?"

And she says, "Well, I had a good

feeling about this." You know, and the

funny part about it is you can figure it

out. The if you if you go back, can

Jamie, can you show the board right

there? Yeah.

>> So, clearly that apostrophe is a huge

clue, right? So, the idea is that if you

read that property, is it isle? Is it

I've right and then there's no r? Um, so

think about all of those blank squares

as orders of magnitude that you are away

from the energies that would allow you

to do experiments that would explain

physics. And think about the apostrophe,

the L, and that pattern as well as the

fact that there's no R as the standard

model of physics.

So right now what you have is a debate

about whether or not we should buy more

and more letters with higher and higher

energy

or like should we build bigger

accelerators and spend more treasure

trying to collide particles or should we

just Caitlyn our way out of this? So

Caitlyn Burke is my model of what I

think we're supposed to be doing. And

>> so an exceptional mind with an ability

to see or propose things that other

people aren't seeing. how I guarantee

you that if we studied this, if we spent

a month with the world's smartest people

on this puzzle, we'd learn that there

are certain things that were present

that, you know, that the frequency of

certain the fact that there's a single

letter there that almost certainly is I

or A. She took a tiny number of clues,

but here's the really important thing.

Jamie, can we show the the the filledin

puzzle?

So you'll notice that the word this

could be changed to that because the

only letter that's been excluded is an

R.

>> So that is what the issue of unique UV

completion is. In other words, you a

unique UV completion would say

[clears throat] there's only one phrase

that fits there. she guessed. She

couldn't have known it is I've got a

good feeling about that or I've got a

nice feeling about this or that.

>> So, it's actually not

um or I'll get a good feeling about

this. But all of those were much less

probable because

they're just not as natural. So, this is

a combination of science, guesswork,

and raw courage. Like the the the most

marvelous thing about that exchange is

she says, "Can I solve?" And there's

like he's not even sure he's hearing her

properly. And then finally he says,

"Okay, that's that's gatekeeping. Can I

put this article on the archive? Can I

give a seminar in your department?

I want to solve the puzzle." And a lot

of what we're arguing about is that the

string theorists are the only ones who

have the right to try to solve the

puzzle

at the moment. So imagine that somehow

there's a rule that only Rick, poor

Rick, who guesses that there's an R.

Imagine that he's the only one allowed

to solve the puzzle. And when she asks,

"May I solve the puzzle?"

No, no, no. You can't. That's

pseudocience. You're a charlatan. That's

you know that is uh crank physics. Mhm.

>> So that's what the problem that we're

facing is is that we've got one group

that got control of the gatekeeping,

who is very good at mathematics,

extremely bad at physics,

and they've redefined what physics is

and what good science is, where they're

the only ones who are guessing the

puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle and

everyone else is like, here's a crazy

story from yesterday.

I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a

talk in the physics department even

though any normal person would say that

that happened. And I wasn't allowed to

do that when I visited a uh physics

institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed

to say that I was visiting for a week.

Nor was I allowed to say that I gave a

seminar that lasted nine hours.

>> But you just did.

>> Yeah.

>> Are you a lawb breaker?

>> I'm breaking the rules now because I've

now I've had it. I agreed I agreed to

not do this and I'm and with these

missing scientists

I've changed my mind. [snorts]

I'm not going to deal with these people

anymore and whatever is going on with

science and the suppression of different

ideas

um is terrifying.

Right now we have a situation I you know

I gave a talk at the University of

Chicago. There's no record of it.

Who's asking you to do these talks and

who's asking you to not give a record?

You don't have to name names.

>> Yeah. Particular people in general. The

funny part is that the people who ask me

to give talks in the physics departments

are the most courageous person in each

department.

So the problem is that the person that I

you you end up feeling resentful towards

how dare you tell me that I can't give

this talk in this department officially

is the person who's arranging for your

stay

and is arranging for the the room and

they are under the most pressure from

the institutions.

>> So the institution is forcing them to

say

you you're allowed to do give the talk

but you're not allowed to talk about it

on social media. You're not allowed to

>> advertise that you're doing it. You're

not allowed to say that you're doing it.

>> So in this case, in the case of of UT

Texas physics department, I was allowed

to say I'm speaking in the carch group

seminar. It's like a condom to make sure

that the physics department doesn't get

pregnant.

>> Well, isn't that really bizarre? Because

University of Austin, Texas, was

supposed to be a university that fixed

all the [ __ ] that was wrong with

other universities.

>> Much much more insane than that. This

was the home of Steven Weinberg who

moved from Harvard to Texas because the

money the oil money was used to buy

brains. So har basically Texas raided

Harvard for people like John Tate in the

math department Steven Weinberg who was

the probably the greatest living uh

theorist and that was the continuation

of the Bryce Dit group from North

Carolina Chapel Hill that was set up to

do anti-gravity by Agnu Bainson. So,

you're right next to an amazing physics

department with a crazy history

um that in fact touched anti-gravity.

This is one of the one of the tiny

number of places that has a a real

legacy in that department. And I I was

speaking there on gravity

on dark energy.

And

you uh look, I've been lying my whole

life about my relationship with the

physics world because of this pressure.

They can't listen to me if I say I'm a

physicist. So I say I'm an entertainer.

[laughter]

Yeah. But that people say, "Well, why

would you do that? Why would you say

that you're an entertainer when you

obviously are conversant in all this

stuff?" And the answer is, I don't want

to die. I don't want to lose my ability

to enter a physics department. So I I

take on this completely wrong persona

and you know I have the emails. You're

not giving a talk. You're having

conversations in room 5308.

>> It literally says you're not giving a

talk.

>> I could read what it is that they write

to me. So

>> why but why what is the benefit of this

formal declaration or this formal

designation of the way you're talking?

So when I was at a physics institute in

Canada, I I was told, "We're worried

that you're going to use it to

legitimize yourself."

It's like, "I'm going to do that. Of

course, I'm going. I have a PhD from

Harvard, you stupid I I mean like you

guys imagine I'm I'm I'm a podcast

guest."

This episode is brought to you by

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>> Right? just a regular dude with some

wacky ideas,

>> right? And so the idea is I have to play

that character

>> as opposed to I have

>> legitimizing yourself is a very bizarre

phrase.

>> Tell me about that.

>> That's because it's assuming that you're

not legitimate.

>> Do you know what I'm saying?

>> I don't think you're understanding this.

>> But no, I am understanding it. But but

from their perspective, saying that

you're going to use it to legitimize

yourself in your ideas is a really crazy

way to phrase it because like you're

they're acting from the assumption that

you're not legitimate.

>> So that's they're you remember when like

I think Reagan thought I forget who it

was. Reagan thought there were

recallable missiles.

>> Well, you could turn them around,

>> right?

>> Sorry, we changed my mind.

>> So

>> like a base jumper was also a suicide

jumper. [laughter]

on second halfway through [laughter]

>> halfway in he's like a [ __ ] this no I I

like a lot of these people who survive

jumping off the gold gate bridge they

learn like I I love life um

>> yes yes most of them

>> they're reborn

>> um so what I would say is

>> the problem is that I am I don't I I

don't this is not a boast as you know I

don't usually put my credential first

I'm probably the most blue chip defector

from the institutions

mut mutineer let's put it call it that

um I have a I have essentially perfect

credentials

and that's the problem so it's not a

question of you're going to legitimize I

already legitimized myself by Harvard

PhD MIT postoc NSF post-docal fellow ONR

top in the country Sloan foundation

grantee I've been in math physics

economics departments I'm so bulletproof

>> so that's the problem

>> that's the That's the problem. It's not

that you're a cook. That

>> That's what I was What I was trying to

say. You didn't understand.

>> No, I do understand. I just don't

understand why they want to do that to

you. That's what's bizarre

>> narrative.

>> Okay.

>> I am I am the greatest danger to the

narrative.

>> I'm I'm the most followed mathematician

in the United States. Maybe the world

Hana Fry may be above it. That danger to

the narrative is the problem. Well,

specifically for people that don't know

what we're talking about, what is to

make this a standalone show, the people

that not aware of your work, what is it

about you and your ideas

that they are so hesitant to platform

or legitimize or why you're such a

danger.

>> Okay, so in 2001,

I said mortgage back securities were a

great danger to the world. I have one of

the first published papers on the danger

of illquid of the pricing of illquid

securities.

Uh, I went on Chris Williamson's show

and he asked me who's going to win,

Biden or Trump. I said, 'You don't even

know whether Biden's going to make it to

November. I said that the people

representatives of the Democratic party

reached out to me and said, "Stop

talking about Biden's dementia. You need

your affirmation that you're seeing

something real. We've put in three

people uh as a committee to replace the

president." And I I said like, I'm

supposed to feel good about that. Um, so

I

>> Well, they told you they put in three

people.

>> They put in a committee of three people

and if you knew who those people were,

you'd be pleased as punched. So shut up.

>> That's what they said to you.

>> Yeah, correct.

>> You would be really happy. So shut up.

>> Yeah.

>> They didn't even tell you who the people

were.

>> I think that they did and I've

conveniently forgot them. One of them

might have been the chief of staff.

[laughter]

[sighs and gasps]

>> Wow.

>> So it's like,

>> but I but I say this, right? And I'm not

trying to

I mean I keep lots of secrets that

people ask me to keep that I should keep

things having to do with national

security for example. But these people

are incompetent

and they're a danger to us. And right

now that the string theory narrative is

a complete danger. It's not string

theory that's the problem. It's the it's

the only game in town. And so, you know,

there was a

look, people are willing to spend their

entire credibility

just to make me go away.

>> Could you briefly just describe like

what what is the pro? So, there's not a

problem with string string theory or is

string theory not complete or is string

theory readed uh has it reaped actual

results? mathematically it's reaped

results and string theorists have

occasionally um done really great work

in in a subject called quantum field

theory but quantum field theory isn't

about the quantum field theory of the

world quantum field theory is like

calculus it's some thing that's very

useful and it it grew up in physics but

we've now found out that quantum field

theory has to do with pure problems in

mathematics that have nothing to do with

physics and what they haven't done is

they haven't dealt with the physical

world. So if you take physics, why why

do we care about physics so much more

than really almost any other aspect of

the sciences other than biology.

I had to give a talk at the New York

Deep Tech Week. Shout out to those guys.

And I I put it on the slide as uh three

things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom.

Easy to remember. Boom is weapons.

Physics will create weapons. uh you'll

dwarf everything else with the possible

exception of biologicals.

Uh zoom vroom is energy and the story of

energy is basically the story of

prosperity and control. Uh if you look

at wealth and the amount of fossil fuels

burned, it's more or less like a

onetoone correlation as to which nations

are rich and poor per capita. And zoom

is everything else. It's propulsion.

It's computation,

it's communication

and those things if you if you take them

together um more or less define the

economy and the world order. Physics is

the center of what makes us

modern humans and

it became too dangerous in the 1950s.

even the 40s, you know, atomic weapons

are extremely bad, but they're not

hydrogen bombs. Um, somehow in November

of 52, everything changed and

we became we became too dangerous. The

the community of physicists is the most

powerful group of people made into

completely

uh ineffectual humans.

>> And do you think this is by design?

>> Partially.

>> And what was the purpose of it? But by

saying that you became that physicists

became too dangerous, the ideas became

too dangerous is the idea that the

weapons would become so immense and

powerful that they had to do something

to stop and curb that.

>> Well, we didn't know how to control it,

right? So, in other words, for example,

in the in 1940,

we set up something called the reference

committee, which I'm sure your listeners

have never heard of. And the reference

committee lived inside of the National

Resource Council. Now, why was it

important? because chain reaction

physics was so hot once the neutron was

found. Right? So, think about neutrons

as bullets. Um, they can go right into

the middle of an atom because they're

they're not positively charged. So,

they're not going to be repelled by the

nucleus and they can bust apart atoms

that are b barely being held together.

And that's why you you get bullets

beginning bullets be getting bullets and

that's what a chain reaction is. The

people who were doing that in the 40 in

the 30s suddenly found that when they

mailed off a paper to a journal if they

weren't part of the secret group in Los

Alamos

their paper got held up and sent back

for revisions

and there was no money in it. We we

secretly set up this thing to shunt real

research into the National Resource

Council. I think this was or organized

by a guy named Bright Briti T. And

that was the beginning of this whole

peerreview control mechanism.

>> And this control, do you think is this

ego-based that the people who are the

gatekeepers want to remain in the

position of

>> we all want to survive, Joe. I mean,

this is a real problem. So you and I can

hate on the institutions all we want

from the safety of the JRE,

but what are you going to do when it

becomes really really easy for people to

commit

like [clears throat] mass murder? If you

think about all the really bad mass like

the the Vegas shooting that never really

got sorted out, it's very hard to kill

large numbers of people using things

like bullets.

If you want to really kill a large

number of people, you're going to go to

biologicals and you're going to go to

nuclear.

And what happens when that becomes easy?

Like maybe it's a lot easier to build

these weapons than the way we currently

do it. Right now we're uh bottlenecked

on things like centrifuges.

And by the way, who knows what the next

innovation in physics is going to bring.

So I always say this thing about if

you're not tracking everybody at my

level, what are you doing as an

intelligence service? Is this part of

your concern about the missing

scientists?

>> Yeah, of course.

>> Yeah. So, the missing scientist

narrative, um, for people that aren't

aware of it, I think they're up to 15

now. And a lot of people say that some

of these connections are baseless and

that some of them it's just

>> we're not really up to 15.

>> No. Okay. So, what do you think we're

actually up to?

>> I don't know. Probably

five or six.

>> But I saw someone online did a breakdown

of it and essentially they were saying

that the odds of this being a

coincidence are off the charts. that the

people that are all involved in very

specific types of technological

research,

different things that are top secret

that all of these people either wind up

missing. There's a lot of murder in math

and physics. First of all, people don't

really appreciate that. Um, you know,

the uni bomber was a famous PhD

mathematician. Uh,

>> he's a big story though. There's there's

a lot.

>> Yeah, sure. There was a guy named Caner

who uh broke into David Writtenhouse

Laboratories in the University of

Pennsylvania where I was an

undergraduate and shot up a seminar. Um

there was uh you know this situation in

Iowa where a relative of mine got a seat

in the physics department um because

somebody was killed by one of the

graduate students. I think it became a

movie like Dark Matter. So there there's

an incredible amount of murder. Uh the

ballpeen hammer uh killing of was it

Carl Doo by um uh Strleski at Stanford.

So first of all there's just a lot of

death because mathematicians and

physicists are somewhat close to

unhinged and it's it's a really nasty

there's a lot of nasty culture and

sometimes it becomes violent.

>> Why do you think they're close to

unhinged?

You spend that much time in your head? I

I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded as

I am. [laughter] No, seriously, you're

just way out in the stratosphere.

I I I completely forget who I am, where

I am, that I'm even a human being. That

when you're using your body as an

instrument as you as you do um in combat

sports and training, you become a

different thing. You know, you know that

archery thing where you have to

>> twist your arm. A lot of people don't

know that they can do that initially.

Like just a small thing like that or

>> what are you talking about? Archery

thing that you twist your arm.

>> If you have an old style bow,

>> you you often get burned by the

>> Oh, that you have to twist your arm like

that. Yeah. So that you're not like this

and get hit.

>> But but you you you don't see but then

you twisted your your wrist. You keep

your wrist straight.

>> Just

>> I don't do that kind of archery. That's

why I'm confused.

>> Well, okay. Sorry. You do real

>> this this kind? Yeah. You keep your hand

like that.

>> Okay.

um

>> that's a torque issue,

>> but like if you're if you're if you're a

sniper, you know, there are all sorts of

things about breathing in in your how

you adjust your eyes and

>> you use your body as an instrument as a

mathematician or a physicist. One of the

reasons that I I wish I were in better

shape is that in order for me to keep my

mind in a particular way, I have to not

think constantly about suppressing food,

you know. So what you're doing a you're

doing a very unnatural thing.

>> Mhm.

>> And that unnatural thing uh not

everybody can handle it.

>> Right.

>> I see what you're saying.

>> And we snap. And also our minds are more

perfect. The messiness of the world and

the perfection of our minds is at odds

with each other.

>> And I love disappearing into math and

physics because it's perfect.

>> But how does that lead to violence?

um you're upset because people are

lying. You know, you're like the the uni

bomber had a had really interesting

points.

He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really

correctly, you know, he has a an amazing

story called Ship of Fools. I highly

recommend anybody read it. Just the way

Charles Manson's Look at your game girl

is a great song.

[snorts]

>> It's a great song.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. um

we're not comfortable in part with uh

coming back to the the half measures and

the the special pleading that sort of

characterizes normal life. So to get

back to the missing scientist narrative,

um I don't think there are 15 missing

scientists in this data set. That's

[ __ ] But

>> it seems like they're adding as many as

they can.

>> Yeah, they're

>> they're trying to make connections that

don't

>> Don't do that. It's it's like it's like

the junkification of the UFO narrative.

All of these narratives have a junk to

them so that and and I believe a lot of

the junk is affixed to the narrative so

that those who want to follow the

institutional instruction to ignore the

fact that this is happening can point to

the crappiness,

right? And so that's the out. And the

really difficult thing that you do and

you do really well is you try to piece

together, okay, what's [ __ ] what's

real. There's a lot of real in the UFO

story and there's a lot of nonsense.

>> There's a lot of real in the COVID story

and a lot of nonsense. The same thing is

true for physics. But physics is more

dangerous

>> and the fact that we're not tracking

like I always wonder why they allow me

to come on the JRE

and say stuff.

I know a lot of stuff that I don't know

what it unlocks

and

>> Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who

comes on here.

>> Sure. China is smarter and by the way

the LLMs I mean look there are a lot of

threads here

to get back to the physics um and I'm

giving a talk tomorrow on at the at the

Texas Austin on supporting science math

and physics and renewing our commitment

to it. I don't want to give the

impression that it isn't dangerous or

that the gatekeeping is stupid. It's

really important to do great gatekeeping

around mathematics and physics. It's

cryptography, it's weaponry, it's

propulsion,

it's, you know, a sudden change in the

world economy.

Um, if you figured out how to do fusion,

it would have immediate geopolitical

results.

>> So, these specific scientists that are

missing,

whatever the number is, five, six that

you think are legitimate, what what

specifically are they working on that's

so dangerous? Well, the fusion guy

obviously is uh at MIT is anybody who

might I I don't know. Fusion isn't my

thing. Plasma isn't my thing. Um but

that is unquestionably uh dangerous if

you imagine how much depends on oil. And

is there is it a good assumption that if

you have one incredibly brilliant person

that's at the head of this thing and

they make a breakthrough, if you kill

that guy, the whole thing is in disarray

because the people that are under him,

whatever people he has working with him

aren't as fully immersed in it as he is

that you can kind of like handicap a

problem.

>> It's like let's say if there's

>> top five people,

>> it's an energy thing. Let's say if it's

an energy thing. Let's say if someone

has some new technology that's going to

completely disrupt the fossil fuels

industry, right? And they go, "Listen,

we can kill this [ __ ] guy and uh it's

still coming down the pipe, but we'll

delay it by 10 years and make $15

trillion."

>> So,

this is the question about the far right

tail, like the extreme right tail of

human intelligence and ability. And if

you think about certain areas where you

have a dominant figure, uh Rodney Mullen

in skateboarding, for example, what

percentage of all tricks derive from

Rodney Mullen? You couldn't have stopped

skateboarding, but you could certainly

have held it back by getting to Rodney

Mullen, right?

uh when it comes to, you know, guitar,

the the amount of impact that uh Jimmyi

Hendris and Eddie Van Halen had is just

wildly disproportionate.

You know, when when I was doing my

podcast, I was really excited to do

Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen

together. I wanted to get them, you

know, totally different sports, but um

those two guys are sort of the same.

They just created so much vocabulary,

you can't even imagine it. And

>> Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit

he deserves either.

>> Oh, tell me. Talk to me.

>> Well, it's just Van Halen

became Van Hagar and it became a

different kind of music and I think a

lot of the original hardcore fans left,

but a lot I think it got more popular

with

>> sure Sammy Hagar, but it was a different

kind of music.

>> And not that it's bad, but it's

different. And then I think a lot of

people just went nah. But like if you go

like to,

you know, some of the like big Van Halen

with David I think Van Halen with David

Lee Roth in his prime was a literally a

perfect band. It was phenomenal. That

was they were the [ __ ] when I was in

high school. I mean it was everybody had

Van Halen on their notebooks. They made

the VH.

>> I remember it.

>> They were awesome. And they were so

[snorts] good. and Van Hal and Eddie

specifically could shred so hard and

some of those classic riffs. I just

don't think in the mainstream world he

got the credit that he deserves.

>> I see it differently.

>> Well, people mention Clapton, who of

course is a great wizard. Always it's

number one is Hrix. Most people have

Hendrickx as number one because he was

so revolutionary.

>> Well, nobody's going to say Alan

Holdsworth.

>> Yeah. I don't know who he is.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah. I mean, my my my point is is that

um

David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from

becoming Alan Holdlessworth.

And

that's

>> who is Alen Holdsworth?

>> Oh, it's interesting. Alan Holdsworth,

like if you talk to your hot [ __ ]

guitarist friends, they will very often

like everybody will just pause and say,

"Well, yeah, that's Alen Holdsworth."

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

And it's sort of like listening to a

modem for normal human beings,

right? Um that's why it's it's just not

popular. And so Eddie Van Halen was

>> Who did he play with?

>> I don't know. Alan Holtzsworth

>> just by himself.

>> Yeah. Can we just actually weirdly put

Alan Holdlessworth just like choose

something with a

>> Yeah. Yeah. We'll listen to some of his

music. So we might have we'll edit it

out of the episode because otherwise

we'll get dinged on.

>> Okay. Well, I don't want you to Okay.

But

>> we'll play it. We'll play it and then

we'll just come right back to it.

>> All right. Let's do that.

>> Give me something. Jamie,

>> was it is there any specific song that

you'd like?

>> No, at all. It's all mind-l

[snorts] popular we might have known so

I could tap into that, but I don't see

nothing.

>> Like, is there a song that you like that

you could recommend?

>> I just listen to a certain amount of it

and then I don't listen to it again. I'm

not at that level where I need Alan

Holdsworth.

>> Okay.

>> What does that mean?

>> No, what does that mean? [laughter]

Thank you, Jamie. I'd rather see some

guy flying through the air with like

[laughter] his pants on fire than

listen.

>> Okay, here we go.

>> Live in Tokyo.

>> 1984. Live in Tokyo.

>> Tokyo Dream.

>> See if you can use the histogram to

figure out like where the nerds are

going.

>> Histogram.

>> Yeah, it shows you like where people

spend their time on a video.

I would go right into the middle of it

or something.

>> I'm already checking what you're doing.

>> Sell out or

>> nothing's going on right now.

>> Put it in the middle, Jamie.

What is all

>> you've heard this before though?

>> Yeah.

>> What is that? A bass? What is the other

guitar I'm hearing? Cuz that is not

matching up with what that bass player

seems to be playing. Do you hear that

extra guitar?

That's slower [music] and off time.

>> I don't know.

That's a bass. I think

>> it doesn't sound like he's playing.

>> My my guitarist friends will just

salivate and I'll look at them.

[laughter]

>> No offense, but it's

>> [laughter]

>> Can't be very

>> It sounds like jazz, right? So it's like

jazz guitar. Like there's no there's no

singing.

>> Apologize, sir.

>> Well, look, [laughter]

if I put on if I

>> No more Jerry. I've had it. [sighs]

>> Oh, [snorts] Jamie.

>> Jamie, you're going to have so much nerd

hate.

>> I mean, I've people will agree with me,

too. I believe.

>> Oh, 100%. more more

that was my point. I think David Lee

Roth had some uh had some comment about

if it weren't for me the brothers would

be uh playing biker bars in the Far

Valley or something, you know. And so

David Lee Roth came up with what we

would call the syntactic sugar, the

thing that made Van Halen

fun and listenable and dable like Dance

the Night Away.

>> Yeah.

>> Just I didn't like Van Halen. I love

that song. I never liked Van Halen. Oh,

how dare you.

>> Well, but I loved Eddie Van Halen. And

>> you didn't like Van Halen.

>> I didn't You want to That I'm not even

embarrassed about that. The one I'm

embarrassed about. I completely

dismissed AC/DC in real time because I'm

an idiot.

>> Oh,

>> I've never been more wrong about

something in my life.

>> How did you dismiss AC/DC?

>> Good question. They had a dumb thing

going on with the school pants and the

dirty deeds done dirt cheap and

>> [ __ ] song.

>> What a great song. Well, you know, like

musically Hot for Teacher is an amazing

composition.

>> Yeah.

>> Unbelievable. Right. But but it's the

key thing that they figured out is

making things marketable.

>> Right.

>> Right.

>> And that's David Lee Roth.

>> And I think it's David Lee Roth

[clears throat]

charismatic and did jumping splits.

Yeah. Yeah, he was amazing.

>> Amazing. Amazing. And he had a a secret

weakness for oldtimey music.

>> Right.

>> Right. Like Just a Jigalow, Ice Cream

Man, all that kind of stuff. So he's

like a almost a throwback to 1930s for,

you know, even earlier vaudeville.

>> He's an odd guy. Have you ever met him?

>> I've wanted I've wanted to so badly. I'm

so jealous.

>> But I I don't think you ever really get

to him. It's always the show. like in

podcasts it's a little like I really

enjoy talking to him but it's a little

odd.

>> I've seen I didn't love the way he was

my my feel like I would I would go the

Jewish angle. I I I would connect to him

based on shared cultural heritage but

what I think about Eddie

is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist.

He he was an electronics guy. He was a

keyboard player. He was handsome as the

day is long,

bursting with charisma.

And like you and I mostly don't know

whether guys are good-looking. I know

Eddie Van Halen was good-looking. Tell

me more.

>> He he was the whole thing.

>> Yeah, for sure.

>> Right. Rockstar.

>> Yeah. And so my feeling is is that those

two guys really, you know, it's one of

those things where you have two guys in

a band that, you know, both of them are

are one one in a billion kind of people

and they happen to meet.

I I

I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen,

but I didn't do it in real time. I came

to it later, but I remember the first

time I heard Van Halen one, I had the

same mystical thing. What is that?

Nothing sounds like this. And I've

almost never had that in music. You

know, the first time I heard Smells Like

Team Spirit. What is that?

>> Those, you know, there are these moments

where something discontinuous happened.

>> But you heard like Ain't Talk About Love

and that Never Got You.

>> No. Panama Doesn't Get Me.

>> Ain't Talking About Love is a [ __ ]

jam. [sighs and gasps]

>> When was the last time you listened to

it?

>> This year. and nothing.

>> It's not that. Well, okay. So, part part

of the thing is is that do you do you

play an instrument? When you play an

instrument,

>> that's the problem.

>> Yeah. I don't play anything.

>> You know, the thing about Eddie Van

Halen is is that he accepted the

geometry of the neck of the guitar. And

very often you see musicians say, "I

don't care what key it's in. I I can

figure out how to do anything." Eddie

Van Halen didn't do that. He said,

"Look, there's certain things that this

thing makes possible, and I'm going to

I'm going to accept the limitations of

the instrument [snorts] and figure out

how to push it in all sorts of ways."

Another quote of his that I just love is

this thing about um

if it doesn't cry, weep, moan, I don't

care.

He wanted all of those noises

>> and figuring out how to get those

noises, figuring out how to make the

guitar into more. This is a thing that

obsesses people like Jeff Beck or Roy

Buchanan or Eddie Van Halen where

they're just

they're in some other space where it's

no longer an instrument the way you and

I see it.

You know, I I've never wanted a whammy

bar on my instrument until I saw Jeff

Beck

do

crazy stuff that just isn't possible.

>> I never tell you I drove him around

once.

>> Yeah. Yeah. We had that car on air.

>> Yeah.

>> And that

um

you know, you've never had Derek Trucks

on the program, have you?

>> Tedeshi Trucks.

>> Uh yeah. No,

>> that guy would not a human.

>> Oh, he's amazing.

>> Amazing. And um

>> has a bunch of different people sing

songs.

>> So yeah, I look I care tremendously

about the guitar. And you know, the

funny thing that I realized is that I

stupidly mentioned guitars on JRE and I

got sent amazing guitars and I had I had

Jamie sent a a quad cortex. Um, I should

have mentioned like Lamborghinis or like

jewels or something.

>> It doesn't work. I've mentioned all

those things.

>> Okay. Um, but I became friends with like

the greatest guitarists of our time and

they're all suffering because nobody

cares. And and I I heard and I haven't

seen it that you had Marcus King.

>> Yeah.

>> On and talked about the death of Rock.

>> Well, I talked about the death of Rock

before and Marcus reached out and that's

why I had him on. He's like, "Man,

Rock's not dead. We're doing it every

[ __ ] night." I was like, "All right,

come on, man. Let's talk."

>> And did you get to the blues, which he

excels at?

>> Well, we mostly just were talking about

just music in general and his life and

he's very

>> Why did he give you a nice guitar?

>> Yeah, it's beautiful, right? He's a cool

[ __ ]

>> He's a cool guy

>> and he's super talented, too.

>> Never met him.

>> Well, it's like these these

This is what my my conversation was

about. Like this is what's what prompted

it rather is that when I was a kid, rock

and roll music was the big popular music

>> 100%.

>> It was all Rolling Stones, AC/DC. These

bands were huge. Zeppelin, they were

[ __ ] huge. They were the biggest

bands.

>> That's not the case anymore.

>> That's right.

>> And that's weird. And I what I said is I

don't understand how a a a music genre

that's so popular can stop being popular

when it's still so good. Like when we

have Protect Our Parks and you know

we'll play Freeird, we still go nuts for

that guitar solo. What happened to

Freeird?

I'm pretty sure if you looked at

Google's data, Freeberg was in it went

away for a long time

>> and then it got resurrected as a meme.

Right? because you you can feel all

right this insanely long intro.

>> Mhm.

>> Just so luxurious. You can't believe

anybody would put up with it anymore.

>> And then

>> two different songs,

>> right? Lord knows I can't

sudden it becomes alive,

>> right? Fly high freeird. Yeah. And then

suddenly you're on fire.

>> Yeah. You know, it's just like you want

to fly an American flag, you want to

shoot lasers, whatever it is.

>> That feeling, I think, went away. And I

think that I think that freeird, if I'd

love to see the data, it came back. And

in part, it was probably Trump and Elon

and this re we're in a masculinity

crisis world over. And the masculinity

crisis

originally killed Freeird and it brought

it back. I think free bread was brought

back by protect our parks.

Okay.

>> You think so?

>> I never I mean Google trend says it's

never really gone away.

>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? What

is

>> there's a peak in 2010?

>> There's a peak in around December 9th.

2010.

>> Wait, wait. That's 20

>> a peak in 2010. That's weird.

>> Something could have happened. We could

look it up.

>> I wonder what it was.

>> It probably was in a movie.

>> Yeah, it seems pretty steady. Well, the

reason that I said that is that I would

make this reference because you used to

be able to refer to Freeird. It was a

meme. Everybody knew it.

>> Yeah. People would yell at

>> And then there was a period of time

where no young person had any clue what

I was talking about.

>> And I I know. Oh, that's interesting

because they they still knew Stairway to

Heaven. If you remember these like top

500 songs of all time.

>> Yeah.

>> And then it would always come down to

the last two and it would always be

Freeird and Stairway to Heaven. Those

would invariantly,

>> right?

>> Then suddenly nobody knew what freeird

was and now everybody knows again. So I

I I

>> Yeah.

>> I I I will be I will stand corrected,

but there was a period of time where

young people didn't know it.

>> Well, is this Google trends? Is that

what that is, Jamie?

>> Yep.

>> So it's just people looking up.

>> I could even go like that's probably

when they put the video on YouTube for

the first time or it became available on

Apple for the first time to download and

it was only on Napster or something like

that. to go back to the the blues aspect

of it. It's blues-based

rock that feels like that thing that you

and I relate to.

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You know, we're not most I I'm really

into the blues, but that's it's its own

controversy because when black audiences

stopped showing up to blues shows, the

performers got worse because the the

audience was a huge part of the

experience.

I I tell you about this argument I got

into with John Mayer about the blues.

>> No.

>> So I I ran into John Mayer um

where was it? Sameti bungalows and I've

been in awe of that guy intellectually.

When he talks about music I get so much

out of it. Just very perceptive very

brilliant guy.

And so I was uh you know really excited

to meet him and we get into this

discussion and I said you're like a huge

Stevie Rayvon fan and I said I I I

really don't get it. I like him. I think

he's a great player but I don't

understand the focus. And he said oh I

can explain that. He says I I came from

the MTV generation and he was the blues

packaged for us. Like a genius guy for

sure but packaged for MTV.

>> Mhm.

He said, "But you know, blues isn't

really um

blues isn't a is isn't a real musical

form. It's an ingredient." I said, "What

are you talking about?" He says, "Well,

you would never go to a blues show."

I said, "I can't believe I'm saying this

to John Mayer, but I don't think you

know what you're talking about."

>> House of Blues. [laughter]

>> It's literally

>> Well, he meant something. So the the

thing is is that I caught the end of

black audiences,

like old black people listening to the

blues and paying for it. So there's who

pays and who plays and and black people

are still paying for blues, but a lot of

them aren't sorry are still playing

blues, but a lot of them aren't paying

for it. So when I go, for example, to uh

see Cadillac Zach's Maui Sugar Mill show

every Monday night, I go occasionally in

uh in Tarzana. It's like

70year-old and up white people. So you

see like hot chicks in their 80s and

crop tops dancing and

that's what it is now. It's like a

really old crowd keeping this thing

alive and I can't understand it because

it feels great, Joe.

>> Right. And um

and that's the thing which is like you

know Bonamasa he does these cruises

keeping the blues alive and my feeling

is like f that. We we've got to actually

get

people back into understanding what it

is. So if you picture those huge bands

that in your youth stop thinking about

the the band on stage rocking out and

pan in your mind into the audience and

what do you see?

Young people.

>> Young people.

What are they doing?

>> Dancing. Having fun.

>> They're dancing. There's some There's

some chick in a crop top on some guy's

shoulders rocking out.

>> Freeird.

>> When when hot chicks stop dancing to

your music, it starts to enter its death

throws.

>> Damn.

>> And that's true with jazz.

It's true with traditional R&B.

And it's true with the blues. It's true

with rock. And so the important thing

and I I keep telling people is that you

have to get people dancing. Once you

start becoming intellectual like Alan

Holdsworth, nobody's dancing to Alan

Holdsworth.

>> Maybe you are. [laughter]

>> It's not my [ __ ]

>> You have no idea to it. Jamie, what do

you think?

>> Dude,

>> I'm honestly You guys sound old as [ __ ]

right now. [laughter] There's so much

music and rock music in arenas right now

that's selling out.

>> What is rock in arena? I mean just like

there's a bunch of bands I could say

like Bad Omens, Bare Tooth, Korn just

posted a video in front of like S. Paulo

Brazil, 50,000 people going crazy.

>> Yeah. Like Mishuga. I I

>> it's out there.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's not what you you guys don't

like it either, you know.

>> Yeah. [snorts] But it's not is it's not

the big popular music that it was when I

was a kid.

>> There's only five artists in the world

that are popular like all over the

place.

>> That's right.

>> Because it's now micro. Right.

>> Right. Because there's too many bands,

there's too much music, too much

content. the the the control of the

institutions to tell us what we like

>> Mhm.

>> has uh has slipped, right? And so in

part, you know, like it it was our

version of Piola that

um you know, when I was growing up in uh

in LA, it was KME and KOS that

determined or KQ. Those are the three

stations that mattered. And they told

us, here's here's the offering, boys.

This is what's on tap right now. You

know, are you into math core?

>> Do you think that's it? It's the death

of Because Wow. Now, now that you're

saying that, I'm thinking the death of

radio and the death of rock and roll,

they sink

because radio really stopped being a

thing.

[sighs]

Early 2000s, early 2000s, radio stopped

being a thing.

>> Well, remember when Limewire came

through and everybody could get all the

songs that they wanted,

>> right? That was an issue. But it it felt

like if anything I thought at the

beginning when like Metallica was

railing when Lars Lars Olrich was

railing against Napster, I'm like these

are just your fans. They're just your

fans that are getting your music for

free. Y

>> you're going to have to adapt, but they

still love you. And you know, don't you

make most of your money touring or I

don't know. I don't know what the

economics of it are, but they're going

to change. This is a new thing.

>> I know micro markets, you know, just

just in Prague metal there are so many

different flavors. I understand, but but

what we're getting at is that the radio

sort of dictated what became popular in

a lot of ways. And things become popular

in more of a sense of a viral way.

>> Sure. Well, one thing is that these

clips, if your clip gets picked up by

Tik Tok and Instagram reels, that's, you

know, some tiny fraction of of a song is

the catnip that leads everyone to your

door.

>> 100%. I've downloaded many many songs

that way.

>> But I I I was uh hanging with Misha

Mansour who was making the Jamie claim

like you you got old grandpa. And his

point [laughter] Yeah.

The thing is I I have at least the

courage to hang out with actually cool

people. He said you know his point was

you you're just not even watching it

correctly. And I said what do you mean

Misha? He said video games video game

the music in video games matters much

more than you imagine. And it's like

totally right.

>> That makes sense.

>> And so you know what we are thinking

about in get off get off my lawn mode

>> right

>> is there was something lost and it

hasn't been reborn anywhere. So that's

the part that young Jamie is not getting

correct.

Something was just lost now. Lots of new

stuff sprouted up. But like EDM and

DJing is really where a lot of that

dancing hot chick energy went.

>> That makes sense.

>> Yeah. Right. And then like if you ever

>> that's where guys want to go where the

dancing hot chicks are.

>> They will follow anywhere.

>> Right.

>> Right. And and you know that's the whole

>> I was in uh

>> what's this Jamie?

>> This is EDC Vegas [clears throat] 2026.

This is just the example of what you're

saying. Like

>> is this a electronic?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. This is like as big as it gets.

But look at the stage. Look at all these

lights.

>> I wonder if Molly didn't exist, how much

of this would be out there?

>> I mean,

>> it's a good question, right?

>> LSD didn't exist, how much of that music

wouldn't have gotten big, too.

>> Oh, a lot. Yeah.

>> But yeah, this is where all the girls

hang out,

>> right? And so like I found myself in in

Vegas

>> except for Ella Langley. That was sort

of antithesis antithesis to that. But

>> what is Ella Langley? What's that? She's

uh biggest country artist in almost ever

now. first female with like two top 100

songs ever.

>> How am I so out of the loop?

>> Um because

>> what is her big song? Oh, I know that

song. That song's great.

>> Yeah, she's got another one now. And

>> and has she been around for a long time?

>> Nope. Pretty new. She's like 24.

>> And she's killing it.

>> Murdering it.

>> So part part of what's going on is

there's no way to monitor. Like even if

you have really current young people,

they're monitoring a subset of what's

going on. Nobody nobody's tracking the

whole thing,

>> right? And but why country though? Why

is country exploding the way it's

exploding?

>> Well, because we're all in a meaning

crisis. If you think about the way in

which uh

>> country music for example can develop a

story through uh tropes very very

quickly.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And so in part uh the idea is

that story songs and a return

you know try that in a small town uh is

transgressive.

Try that in a small town is a [laughter]

it's a really powerful message, right?

>> You don't have to say a lot.

>> And we all want the cowboy. We all want

the girl at the county fair, you know.

Um we just don't know how to get back to

her,

>> right? All right. We don't want a

wholesome existence.

>> You know,

I got a barbecue stain on my white

t-shirt. That's Tim McGra, right? Like,

you know, she's killing that that

minikrt. You know, heart don't forget

something like that. Beautiful story.

very very quickly told.

Now, it's old now, but the point being

um

hiphop and its storytelling and the

return to spoken word and poetry and the

legacy of the talking blues

had a had a great run, spread worldwide.

You know, you talk about whites taking

over. What do you mean whites? like

Tamils

and you know indigenous Peruvians are

have taken over hip-hop in in their

local sectors. Uh so hip-hop was just

this great platform that once uh every

local culture figured out some version

of that. And I talk about um when it

entered Bollywood there was a song

uh

you know mama look your your child is

being ruined and it has this like um

hey mom hey dad don't moan and groan why

don't you learn to live with the times

and please leave us alone. M um

>> this is every generation's message.

>> Yeah. But it's like it's delivered in uh

you know boogie woogie reggae rap rock

and roll and bungra you know and it's

like trying to it was the first lame

attempt at rap that I saw in a Bollywood

film with Jackie Shro and

they've all made it theirs and so I was

hanging out in India now with a DJ

um on his program uh Untriggered

and

it's changing the the developing world

um at a level that rock and roll changed

us. It was a you know the music of

liberation. John Mayer's point of course

is that the guitar the electric guitar

retains the stylistic characteristics of

cars in the 1950s

and that thing was the twin experience

of having a car and having a guitar was

was personal expression and liberation

forif for American males in the 50s. M

>> so

um yeah I I but I think a lot about our

guitarist friends because they're

suffering. The world's greatest

guitarists are living today and nobody

cares.

They all follow each other. The funny

thing is if you start following these

people on Instagram as I do

um I look to see which of my friends are

following the great guitarists

and it's other great guitarists. It's

none of my normal friends.

>> Like how many of my normal friends know

who Tim Henson is? A great Texas

guitarist. Uh

>> I do.

>> This man, you know.

>> Do you?

>> Yeah.

>> What kind of music?

>> Oh, man. I can't even explain it. He He

pretty much invented a genre that only

he mastered and is can explain.

>> It's like Texmech

melodic.

If I had a glass and I broke it, if I

took TexMax and I broke it on the ground

and I reassembled it from different

things and it's completely angular and

an idea will last, it's like a

psychedelic thing where it'll last for 5

seconds and it'll be onto the next thing

and it's just angular and fragmented and

sewn together and beautiful and

inspiring.

>> Give me some J.

>> Yeah, I have to I have to play it for

you cuz the drummer and bass player are

also awesome but pretty much revolves

around the guitar. And you see the thing

is that they're so tight with each other

that um you know a better example even

than this would be this thing that they

released called Goat which was the thing

that put them on the map. Um and

>> that was great.

>> It right. Also Tim is just like the

loveliest human being

>> as a young boy.

>> Boy him before he got all the crazy neck

tattoos.

>> Oh.

[music]

Well, that's [music] just broken out. I

don't know.

>> That's not Tim, is it?

>> They posted it.

>> This is This is a different different

human.

>> Oh,

>> let's hear the song.

>> Okay,

>> I think that's someone posting a riff.

>> That was their account.

>> Yeah, I know. But maybe he just put it

up there.

By the way, do you hear the Mexican

influence?

>> Yeah, definitely.

>> So, like this is

>> they're very unique. Very unique sound.

>> This is who I hang with. I love these

guys. This is this this matters to me

and this is new, right? And just the way

this uh what like Antoine de Patrin

that's taking over the world is

basically you hear the Middle East. Um

but these guys are basically into micro

tones. If you take 24 beats, you can

divide it by sixes, you can divide it by

fours. Uh, so the mathematics of rhythm,

um, you know, the stuff that like only

Vinnie Cayuda was able to do before,

people are sort of getting hip to,

things that were happening on oud are

now happening on microonal guitars. And

what it is, as I see it, is is like this

violent birth of people bored by

standard western forms. And I'm I'm for

this.

I'm not for all of the slop that, you

know, like young people are always into

the coolest stuff. No, they're not.

There are lame times. There are cool

times. There's really cool stuff

happening now, but it's it's

it's the fact particularly this Quebec

kind of thing that that broke out with

these guys in costume. Um, huh,

you don't know this. Antoine deport

something like that.

>> There's something

>> back costumes. What are you talking?

>> Like you remember the residents who were

this art group from San Francisco and

nobody knew who they were. They would

have giant eyeballs as heads and they

would play completely insane things like

Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire but in

angular bizarre ways.

>> I missed that too.

>> Okay.

>> Did you miss it?

>> I don't know where we're going. So

Antoine de Portrain is is this thing

that took over which doesn't sound like

anything. It's like that new thing.

So you know you because

[music]

>> [music]

>> So, look at that guitar's friends.

[laughter]

Now

[laughter]

>> the mathematics,

>> look at Jamie.

>> The mathematics of this is that there's

this freak fact which is that if you

take the octave, which is doubling of

frequency,

um you take the 12th root of it, break

it into 12 semmitones, and then take 19

of them stacked, 2 to the 19 over 12 is

equal to 2.996 something. It's almost

three. And that means that you can force

people into this quantized music where

you come up with this num number 12

which is magical for number theory

reasons and you can fool the ear into

thinking that 19 of these 12 semmitones

is a a complete tripling of frequency

and because of that we've been in

eventempered music since the time of

Bach and these guys are breaking us out

together with Jacob Collier they're

saying why would you accept accept that

as a prison.

>> And so how does stuff like this become

popular? Is it just viral?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Because suddenly you see two guys in

costumes that don't look anything like

anything you know making music.

There's a moment where it switches into

six beats per unit into four beats per