You were in the building in the Pentagon

when it got hit.

>> Yes, sir. I'm in the office and I'm

looking at the television where the

planes have just hit the towers. Turned

it off and I started looking at thing

the books on my shelf. I said, "This is

going to get hot fast. What do I need?"

And the army sergeant came and said,

"Did you feel that? What are you talking

about?" I said, "Something just

happened. I'm going to go and see." And

so, as soon as he opened the door, all

the alarms in the building went off. The

plane had hit the building. What I saw

that day

was remarkable.

I saw people in times of challenge you

become who you are truly

>> revert to your training.

>> Yeah.

>> And those women and men were remarkable.

Being in the Pentagon that day is the

thing that I am so thankful that I was

able to be there because I was where my

country needed me to be to serve at that

moment

>> with those incredible incredible women

and men that I was in there with.

So, hey guys, I got something I'm really

excited about I want to share with you

and it involves my birthday. So, here's

the deal. Every year, I do a one-day

event in my home. Only do it once a

year. And it's an event where I teach

all of my visualization techniques, my

cognitive rehearsals that I teach my

one-on-one clients that pay me six and

seven figures. I do in my living room

with you. And it's a very small group.

You get a chance to go through how I do

all my planning, my strategy, my

rehearsals, all my techniques, plus

spend the day with me and ask me

questions and meet a bunch of other

great people as well. I did it and it

sold out. Then we offered a second day,

it sold out. Third day, it sold out.

Fourth day, it sold out. then I couldn't

do anymore. And so there's been a lot of

demand to do it. And so I've got one day

free in the next four months, which is

my birthday. And so I'm going to host

that event in my house. So if you want

to join me, 15 to 18 people in my living

room for an entire day. It's not cheap.

That's why I have free content here. But

if you've got the means to do it, I'd

love to spend the day with you. Go to

max out2026.com

to get all the info. All right. Welcome

back to the show, everybody. So you

know, this year you're going to see some

enhancements to the show that I'm really

excited about. One of those things

you're going to see is we're going to

add additional content to the channel,

meaning you're going to see a few other

hosts on the show that have been friends

of mine for a long time and that I think

will bring things to the table

potentially that I can't. And so, you're

going to get extra stuff this year on

the show. And I know a lot of you have

been excited about that. And so, I'm

officially announcing that today. And

for one of the shows that he did this

year, I wanted to do something where we

talked about leadership, but that's sort

of a topic that gets beaten up an awful

lot, particularly in the social media

age. So today's not about the type of

leadership you see on Instagram where it

leads to a Lamborghini or a Ferrari or

some you know big house you own but the

type of leadership that really matters

which is servant leadership. And I want

to talk about leadership in the context

of valor and service dedication to a

mission greater than yourself. And so I

asked a good friend of mine Michael

Savage who's to my left. And I know a

lot of you when you hear that name

you're thinking of some political host

on the radio. This is not that Michael

Savage. This is a different Michael

Savage. This Michael Savage has been

involved with Tony Robbins for the last

20 years. Yes. Working side by side with

Tony. He's one of the great minds in

personal development and leadership. And

when I told Michael, I want to do an

early show this year on leadership,

valor, dedication to serving other

people. He said, "I have the gentleman

for that." So, Michael, I wanted to

introduce you first and let you

introduce your good friend here today

who we're going to visit with for the

next hour or so.

>> Yeah. Thanks, Ed. You know, um,

leadership, valor, like you said, it

doesn't come with, uh, flashiness all

the time. Instagram gives us that. But

real leadership is about servant

leadership. And I'm uh extremely honored

to have Vice Admiral James Crawford,

who's now the president of Texas

Southern University to join us. I had

the privilege uh of meeting the Vice

Admiral uh a little over a year ago uh

when I was visiting Texas Southern and

uh spent some time with the border

regents there. Got to go to the Battle

of the Bands, which was

>> an amazing experience to to to be guided

with the the president of the college

through. It was awesome. And um you know

I asked some friends about uh Crawford

and I have some friends that uh we've

discussed that are uh years and years of

decorated service in the Navy. Uh and

everyone said he exemplified leadership

at its core, servant leadership.

>> And uh I think what we're going to

uncover today in our conversation is an

interesting um grouping of choices that

someone's made to continue to serve.

>> Yeah, I agree. And uh I I think there's

going to be a lot of value and I'm very

honored that you've joined us today.

>> It's a great pleasure. Thank you so much

for having me here. It's an honor to be

with you.

>> Told you I feel pretty underdressed. If

you guys are watching this on YouTube,

he showed up perfect and Michael and I

are in jeans and old t-shirts. So

anyway, I'll let you ask the first

question of the admiral.

>> So um and do you prefer to be called

James?

>> Well, thank you for that.

You know, admiral, president, those are

things I do or did. Uh, that's not who I

am.

>> My name is either please refer to me as

Jim or James. If you use James though, I

may hesitate

>> because that's the name that my mother

would use when

>> I might not have been in the right

place. That's the wrong connotation. We

can go with Jim if you like. I just want

to say one of It's hard for me to do

that because most of you might not know

what all this terminology means, but in

the military and Navy, you understand

something. This is the highest ranking

attorney in the entire military that he

was in. number, you know, highest

ranking man. So to call him Jim

>> is a little bit awkward and thank you

for your service in advance,

>> but thank you.

>> But I know we got so many things that

the audience wants to know about real

leadership, authentic leadership, and

your life story embodies that. So I

can't wait to get into this stuff.

>> Yeah. I I think my first question leans

into um the values that you've chosen

through leadership in your career.

>> Uh you know, as as Ed mentioned,

>> JAG in the Navy.

>> Yes. uh you know you served for years uh

through some difficult times in the

country but then you've also chosen to

lead in education and most people make

those decisions based on a core set of

values and I'm curious what are the the

values that drive the decision- making

in your service that are still

continuing to drive the decisions you

make today. Well, I was I've been

blessed from birth, frankly. Uh, and

that first blessing was uh the family I

was born into,

>> born into a family of believers. And um

and I learned early on uh the three

pillars that should guide my life of

faith, family, and service.

>> And so I've tried to uh live up to those

standards that my mother and my father

set. Uh we weren't didn't have a lot of

resources. Uh but what they delivered

was a uh a sense of being recognizing

what's important in life. What's

important is your fellow man. What's

important is how you carry yourself.

What's important what you leave behind

uh others when you depart? Did you do

something that made that place better

>> than when you arrived?

>> Right. Jim, I want to ask you about a

specific time uh in your career where

your leadership was likely tested. you

were at the Pentagon uh at a time where

our nation fell under attack in 9/11 and

that obviously shaped a good portion of

how your career looked moving forward.

Can you speak to that?

>> Sure. So, um

before 911, I had been uh the

judge fleet judge advocate for the US

7th Fleet out in the Pacific in Japan.

>> Yeah.

and I was transferred to uh the joint

staff to be a deputy legal adviser to

the chairman of the joint staff. There's

only one legal advisor and that's the

the captain, the principal, now flag

officer position and uh I had been at

the Pentagon three weeks

>> and uh

I was sitting in my office. I was uh I

was the lead um operational lawyer. I

had a partner with me. Uh my partner was

off in Europe with the uh oper the head

of operations the J3 the J3 was a Marine

threear at the time and they were in

London. Uh and so I'm in the office and

I'm looking at the television where the

planes have just hit the towers in New

York. And so I turned it off and I

started looking at thing the books on my

shelf. I said to myself, "This is going

to get hot fast. what do I need? Uh, and

so I was looking at that and then the

sergeant came in, the army sergeant came

in. He said, "Did you feel that?" Said,

"What are you talking about?" I said,

"Something just happened. I'm going to

go and see." And so as soon as he opened

the door, all the alarms in the building

went off. The plane had hit the

building. Um,

>> you were in the building in the Pentagon

when it got hit.

>> Yes, sir. And plane hit the building and

they um called for the evacuation of the

building.

>> Right. But some of us were asked to stay

and go in go to the National Military

Command Center uh to augment the watch.

The watch is constant. Uh but an event

like that required we were you augment

that watch section. So I was one of the

folks that was asked to go and I took up

the the legal station uh in the in the

NMCC

and uh we

we've got the firemen in the building.

They're trying to they're trying to

contain the fire on the the building the

construct but the construction of the

building is you know it's the difference

you know that was a 50s era construction

sturdy uh but it had wood on the top of

the building and so that was their

challenge dealing with that aspect of

it. Um

>> they they had they had carbon monoxide

monitors inside the NMCC which was

self-contained but they had to monitor

that to make sure and the question was

would we be able to

sustain, maintain operations there at

the Pentagon. That was obviously an

important thing that really wanted to be

done. Leaders really felt that that was

critical

>> that the Pentagon stay in operation.

>> Uh there were there was a team that was

sent off to the alternate location uh

immediately uh just in case. And um what

I saw that day

was remarkable.

I saw people just as I said in times of

challenge you become who you are truly

>> your ver to your training.

>> Yeah.

>> And those women and men were remarkable.

the NMCC has led the DDO, the one star

uh is the leader of that watch section

and everyone fell in on that uh the

standing watch and it was just it just

I've always been asked from time to

time, what's your favorite duty station?

Where have you been? And people think

I'm going to say like Singapore or

Hawaii or this or that. And being in the

Pentagon that day is the thing that I am

so

thankful that I was able to be there

because I was where my country needed me

to be to serve at that moment.

>> Yeah.

>> With those incredible, incredible

>> women and men that I was in there with.

And um it was just a blessing to have

that opportunity and to

>> to provide the information that needed

to be provided to offer uh the advice

that needed to be offered for our senior

leaders to make decisions on something

that was really very critical. And that

just changed the entire next trajectory

of my the rest of my career in the on

active duty

>> because we remained we were in conflict

and so attacked by that and then ended

up later in my career as on the ground

in Afghanistan in command. Uh it all

started with that day and then so many

many years later there. So that uh was a

turning point uh for me.

>> Wow. You can see it on your face even

right now. My gosh. So in addition to

the moment of being in the Pentagon when

the plane hit, you were also in the

White House situation room. I know you

can't talk in detail about this when

they finally got Osama bin Laden.

>> So let's get this. I was in the the

Pentagon

>> Mhm. room where we were monitoring those

operations with myself, the general

counsel, uh the secretar's uh chief of

staff and the variety of folks uh in

there and we were monitoring operations

cuz I was one of four uh executive level

council that were read into the planning

that were involved in the planning the

preparation for that and they only

unformed confirmed member of that group.

The other three were um civilian

lawyers, two political appointees and uh

so it's not a lot I can say about that

>> but the privilege of being trusted with

that mission with those three brilliant

legal minds. Uh, another one of those

points where you felt like you were

where

>> Mhm.

>> your nation needed you to help hard

decisions to be made

>> um in providing input that went directly

to the the president for decisions.

>> You did that for a long time though and

so I just wonder there's had to be a

temptation you're going to now leave the

military. You got a lot of choices. So

this is really important because I think

type of people that listen to the show,

you know, they're looking at

entrepreneurship, obviously their

financial status and life matters to

them.

>> I also think sometimes people in this

world today, ironically, are like

guilted into not pursuing wealth,

>> not pursuing affluence, right? And so

you you've left the military. You could

have gone on to choose a career after

that post the military doing all kinds

of things that made you seven figures.

You could have sat on a bunch of boards.

you could have, but you then chose to

eventually become the president of an

H.B.CU

>> and be in service still.

>> Did it factor in your mind at that time

these different lanes and why did you

make the choice you made?

>> You know, I

I felt that uh when I was when I was

about to retire, when I was thinking

about retiring, I thought about I

started with not where I wanted to go,

but with what brought me to where I was.

>> Why did I join the military? Why did I

wear that uniform? You know, I every day

that I got up to put that uniform on was

a good day. It didn't matter what was

going to happen.

>> Just putting that uniform on, wearing

the colors of our nation, being

entrusted uh with the responsibility

uh to offer input for important

decisions, to be entrusted with the

welfare of our wonderful women and men.

And and so I wanted to as I looked to

the next step in life, I wanted

something like that to motiv continue to

motivate me because my dad always said

to me um you know fathers think their

sons are the most talented people in the

universe, right? And so he says to me,

"Son, you you've got the talent to have

the sort of rich and vibrant life that

you may want to have,

>> but I will offer you I would ask you to

think about this.

>> That's great, but think about how do you

enable others to have the same rich and

vibrant life that you want to have.

>> And if you're doing that, then you're

doing something of value, something that

lasts, something that matters.

>> And and I had been able to have been

blessed and allowed to serve uh this

country for a long time. So I wanted to

continue that, do something that

mattered. Uh and so higher education uh

felt like the right space. Yeah. Because

one of the things, one of the most

significant things a senior officer does

>> is educate and train those to come

behind him or her and do it better than

they did.

>> Not do it like them, but do it better

than they did.

>> Where else can you go to have that sort

of influence than an education at some

level? And I selected higher education.

And I wanted to start with a faith-based

institution because that's so important

has been an important component of my

life. When it's difficult, I know where

I can turn. Wow. and and so the uh

Felician University those sisters uh

gave me an opportunity and I will

forever grateful for that opportunity to

step into something that I I'm not a

lifelong academic uh and they gave me

that opportunity and a lot of lessons

that I learned there I've carried with

me to um Texas Southern University.

>> That's wonderful.

>> And I'm I'm really curious about that.

So you were the first male president of

a female Catholic medical school

>> with nursing nursing school.

>> Um what were some of your takeaways from

your experience at the school? I want to

leave this pretty open because you

mentioned that there are some things

that you took from there that you're now

obviously still uh moving forward with

at Texas Southern. What were the

takeaways from working with that that

fine group of young ladies? So every

organization you know it is shaped by

the ethos of the founders right. So the

foundress of Felician University are the

Felician sisters. uh they are Franciscan

third order and um they're obviously

committed to Christ, committed to God

and they are committed to and the school

was started as a place to educate um

young women and that were going to go

into that life and it evolved into a

university over time. M

>> uh and so what I took from that is the

commitment of those sisters and I have a

background with with nuns. You know I

grew up I wasn't a I'm not a cradle

Catholic and maybe we can talk about how

I came to that but uh

>> nuns have have been a or a huge part of

my life uh as a youngster. A huge part

you know I loved them. I loved them

dearly. And so it was a great

opportunity to work with those work for

those nuns and and try to carry on the

values that they held dear within their

university.

>> Yeah.

>> I want to ask you some hard stuff on

leadership. I'm just curious when I get

a chance to sit in front of someone

who's

had the breadth of career that you've

had. You've consulted with the joint

chiefs. I mean you've got all these

things you've done in your life. So your

degree your humility obviously shines

through. But I just hope everybody has

some context as to what we're talking

about here. And I I get asked a lot in

the entrepreneur space, in the business

space about what I'd call like

leadership fatigue.

>> Mhm.

>> And I just wonder you've been doing

you've been a leader for a long time and

there's an emotional

burden that comes with leadership

particularly somebody as dedicated as

you are. You carry that with you all of

the time. I'm wondering how you've

navigated

carrying the what I call it carrying the

emotional load of an organization over

and over and sometimes maybe even

reporting to somebody who you didn't

align with. I'm sure that had to have

happened in your career at least once

where you have to name them by name. But

how have you dealt with that? You you've

been in leadership for a long time. Did

you feel an emotional burden when you

did it and how did you deal with it?

>> Well, it's it's all about values, right?

So leadership is an amalgam of many many

many things right. Uh three critical

things to your point uh that I look to

is character,

>> humility and authenticity.

>> Humility. Interesting.

>> And so humility uh for is the leader's

greatest shield against the leader's

greatest enemy. And the leader's

greatest enemy is that leader's ego and

the arrogance. Because that when you

have an authority like that, you have a

position like that, it you can easily

allow that as they say go to your head

>> and it be make it about you. But it

cannot be about you. It must be about

the mission. It must be about the

people.

>> And humility is your shield against

that. And humility allows you to

recognize and embrace the self-awareness

that there's a lot you don't know.

and what you do know may all may not

always be relevant to the point that

you're dealing with.

>> And when you embrace that, you're able

to open yourself to solutions that

appear around you. You don't have to be

the architect of the solution.

>> You open and you encourage others. You

have to give the folks that you work

with and I and I like to refer to

working with instead of people work for

you. You work with people

>> and you have to give them the space, the

freedom to think, the freedom to

initiate, the freedom to innovate.

And so if you think about leadership as

a job or the position as a job as

opposed to an opportunity to embrace to

do something as I said going back to my

dad

>> something that has value something that

you want to you feel deeply uh then it

it doesn't feel like a burden are there

are there

>> trying moments certainly

>> um

>> but and when you're I I was I was

blessed to be uh mentored by some

incredible women and men both in uniform

and out of uniform.

>> And they say there are 16 different

personality types and I will tell you I

experienced all such

>> for the good and for the ill. But uh

they all had one thing in common. They

all did it differently but they had one

thing in common. And this is something a

lot of what I've thought about over time

and how I've tried to pattern myself in

this space of leadership is from what

I've learned from them and things I've

read. And one of the folks that I read

try to read about is Mr. John C.

Maxwell. Oh yes.

>> And he said something very simple but

very profound. And he said leadership is

about people and for people.

>> Now that doesn't sound like a lot but

that's a big deal. And every leader

>> professes to do that,

>> but they don't do that because it's not

easy.

>> I, as a very, very, very young

lieutenant,

there was a senior leader of the Navy

who was asked a question that I think

the journalists thought was going to be

a gotcha question. And and they asked

him uh and he was the head of the Navy.

And they asked them, and I won't use his

name because I don't want to name drop,

but they asked them, "What's most

important? Is the mission most important

or the people most important?"

>> And I and I would think I think in my

mind uh the journalists think there's no

good answer to this, right? I've got

him. However he answers this, if he says

the people are more important, then

they'll say, "Well, he doesn't get the

priorities." You know, he don't

understand what priorities are. He says

the mission is more important, then he

doesn't really care about the people. M

>> and without missing a beat, this admiral

said mission first, people always

>> that has stuck with me.

>> And that's why it's not a burden.

>> Very good.

>> Because that's what it's about. You

can't accomplish the mission

>> without the people.

>> Very good. and and it's about finding a

way to integrate it and not seeing your

people that you work with as chess

pieces on a board to accomplish the

endgame

>> because you have to see people you have

to hear them and you have to feel them

>> and

you you integrate the two the mission

and the people to be successful

sustained success was important sustain

sustain success

>> so hey guys new year new systems right

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>> can I ask one follow up on that? I'll

let you jump back in. This the third

thing you said there was authenticity.

And I think for myself,

you know, Maxwell's a good friend by the

way of both Michael and I.

>> I if there is an area there that I have

probably I'm sure I've struggled with my

ego plenty. I should say I've struggled

with all three. Having said that, the

authenticity piece, there's these two

camps in leadership. Some say get as

close to your people as you possibly can

>> because the closer you are more like

family or friends you can lead them. The

other camp as you know is keep some

distance there so there's a level of

whatever respect and that distance

creates a tension a dynamic tension that

causes you to lead people and I'm

curious as to where you fall on that and

what au authenticity meant to you when

you said it. Well, I would I would offer

that

that perspective also depends upon where

you are leading.

>> Uh let's take the military. There are

hierarchies. There's a hierarchical

organization for a reason for a very

good reason.

>> And so, and there are rule sets around

how you relate as how an officer relates

to enlisted personnel.

>> And there's a reason for those rule

sets. Um,

but you have to see people. You have to

see them and understand that they're

more than the person walking around in

that uniform performing a task. They're

more than that person walking around in

your uh classroom, that faculty member,

uh, that biology professor. There's more

to them than that. And you have to see

them from for the wholeness of the

person that they are.

>> And that allows you to sort of on that

tether about how you how you engage with

them dayto day point to point but you

have to always be authentic and and this

is why authenticity is important and I

go back to uh valuebased decisionmaking

leadership is so important because

you can't fake it you can only fake it

for so long right so if you are not in

the times of in times of simplicity

When things are easy,

everything's smooth.

>> There's no issues.

But if you watch how a person leads, it

tells you a lot about who that person

is, what they value, what's important to

them.

>> And in times when the un when the

institution is under stress or the

organization is under stress, it's it

will reveal who that person is. Power

also reveals who a person is. Lincoln

said, you know, we can all deal with

stress,

but the people that can deal with power,

those are the ones that you can trust to

lead.

>> And and so

>> so good. This is so good.

>> And and so um if you are just I just

give you an example. So I would uh when

I was on active duty, I would I was the

JAG, I would travel around and and go to

different commands and different

locations and speak with our folks. And

so I would say this to him. I'm standing

on the stage, right? I said, "Today,

wear my best uniform. Make sure my

ribbons were measured properly. They're

in the right order, in the right place,

shoes perfectly shine, my gig line

straight, nothing out of order, just had

a haircut, you know. And so I did all

that because I'm sending a message.

There's a message in that.

>> If this is what I expect of me,

>> this is what I expect of you. If I do

it, so can so should you.

>> So, and then I'm and I've prepared to

speak to you about these various

subjects and I'm going to articulate

them and give you my vision of how we

should how what my expectations are

>> and how to be respectful and how to

treat each other

>> and how to uh carry yourself in that

uniform because when you're in that

uniform, you're more than yourself. And

but then if I leave the stage, you've

taken those lessons. I leave the stage

and I go into what I like to call an

unguarded moment when I think I'm

unobserved. And leaders must know you're

never unobserved. Someone's always

watching you.

>> Yeah.

>> Someone's always watching you because

many people are watching you because

they want to be where you are. They want

to see how did you achieve that?

>> Uh how can I aspire to be that and be

better than that? And if you go into

that unguarded moment and you are

berating someone

>> and you're acting completely

100 360 degrees away from what you just

articulated,

>> there's a lesson there, too.

>> But that lesson is so much more powerful

than the scripted lesson you just

delivered.

>> My goodness.

>> And you've undercut that. And so, and if

you're not authentic, when you really

need your team is in times when the the

organization is under stress.

>> Yeah. That's when the leader has to be

at their best and you can't then begin

to gather people around you.

>> People have to already be gathered.

>> And very and if they're trusting you

because they can trust you've created

that consistency,

that sense of reliability.

>> Yes.

>> Then it minimize it takes away some of

the an auxiliary stress, right? The

unnecessary stress.

>> Uh so that's why authenticity is so very

important.

Yeah,

>> that's these are I just want to say one

thing. Everyone about every once in a

while there's moments where like it

reminds me of why I started the show.

That was one of them right there. That

was just outstanding. An unguarded

moment. And by the way, I relate to

>> having those unguarded moments where I

wasn't consistent in the things that

I've said from the front behind the

scenes. And you're 100% right. The idea

that they have to be gathered around you

prior to the stress hitting too. These

are these are

>> and I want to be clear here. I don't

always get it right. I understand

>> want to be clear. I mess up just like

the next guy, but as long as you think

like that, as long as you try to keep

that as your guiding as your guidepost,

>> then you you'll you'll stand on it'll

pull you back on track.

>> Very good.

You mentioned something when when you

were talking about, you know, presenting

yourself in front of your team and

standing in front of them, not only to

share a message, but sometimes to share

vision.

>> And very often, I think the idea that a

leader has to hold a vision

>> for their team, for their organization,

in your case, for higher education at

this point,

>> even when things aren't working well,

you know, Steve Jobs said, "It's one

thing to have an idea or a vision, it's

another thing to make it real." Correct.

>> You're holding this vision for what

you'd like to do in higher education and

and um I don't know if we mentioned

this. My brother and my sister and

myself all went to Norfick State

University. So I've received education

at an H.B.CU. My my brother and sister

both played uh athletics for them. And

um so it it was extra special to be able

to come and visit Texas Southern. You're

holding this vision for a school, one of

the most important schools in our

country for a number of reasons that

needed a lift if I can be really frank.

>> Absolutely.

>> How do you hold vision as a leader when

things are so far away from the vision

that you're looking to create? How do

you manage the gap between the vision

that you hold for what you're looking to

create? Translate to that to your team

under stress and when it's far away.

Where do you go for that?

>> A lot of people talk about trust, but it

starts with belief.

It really starts with belief in my mind.

>> You know, when you when I did not have

the opportunity to go to an HB.CU. My

parents, however, uh my dad didn't

graduate. He went off to the Korean War.

Uh my mother uh graduated and was a

teacher for 37 years in the Charlotte

Meckllinburgg school system in North

Carolina.

>> Uh so it's very interesting experience

to have teachers in school and teachers

at home. Yeah.

>> But

>> I'm very very happy about that today.

>> Yeah.

>> But um

>> so I but because of their experience, I

had a connection to HBC, although I

didn't go to one

>> in that era, in the era that they grew

up in. That's where they essentially

their opportunities were,

>> right? And so that's where so many

talented African-Americans

educated

>> whether it's sports, whether it's

entertainment, whether it's academics,

whether it's

>> governance, whatever you may be, those

very talented people. And I was exposed

to those folks

>> who were who carried themselves with

dignity, dignity, who uh were

respectful.

>> My dad used to say, "If you expect

respect, treat others with respect." And

I saw all of that

>> and the thing about H.B.CU's it's so

it's such such a family such a sense of

creating success for each other.

>> Yes.

>> And so when as I when you try to uh

create this vision if you will and

sometimes our words overused I think the

first thing you have to be is very

precise about what it is.

>> Yes. what it is that you're looking for,

what it is that you're looking to do,

and the belief that yes, it can be done.

You know, I we graduated 820

plus uh candidates yesterday from the

university

>> and uh through bachelor degrees, masters

and doctorates.

>> Yeah.

>> And one of the things I said to them is

that

>> education is more than the accumulation

of knowledge. It's about the culturation

of good character

>> and personal excellence.

>> So you have to get people to believe

that there's there's that whisper that

they hear in the back of their heads

that you can't do it. You can't do it.

You can't do it. And it sounds like a

roaring lion.

>> It's really just a whisper.

>> And you can't let that deter you.

>> Yeah.

>> That you will face defeats. My Angelo, I

love this. I say it over and over to

what people like can start quoting it

before I finish it.

>> Yeah.

>> And she said, "You will face many

defeats in life, but you must never let

yourself be defeated."

>> In fact, those defeats are important so

that you can see what you can get up

from and how far you can reach. And what

a leader is trying to show we can reach.

>> Don't allow theoretical limits to be the

barrier to where we can go because there

is no barrier. So being precise about

what it is, helping them see themsel in

that picture,

>> modeling it yourself,

communicating it. Communicating is about

not just transmission,

but receiving and then providing that

feedback so they know you have received

it. Setting the conditions for them to

do. You can't ask people to do something

if you don't set the conditions for them

to do it and give them the tools to do

it.

>> Right? And then you have to be

strategically patient. And I say

strategically patient means you can't

expect newness to occur tomorrow,

>> but it can't take all it can't take

forever.

>> So you have to strategic patience means

there must be a sense of urgency that

yes, we will get there and we can't.

Time is not our friend. And then

everyone has to be accountable and the

leader is the person that must be most

accountable.

>> I'm curious about education in general,

not just H.B.CU's cus do you it's a

two-part question one are we developing

leaders I I don't know because I haven't

been on a college campus other than my

daughters in a long time do we in does

the traditional education system

encourage free thinking and diversity of

thought tough question and number two

what's the future of it I just look at

um I wonder with AI and the advent of

you know people are no longer like they

used to go into brickandmortar

businesses does that eventually make an

impact in higher education as well. So

just your overall thought about higher

education in general.

>> So I mentioned the graduation yesterday

that the commencement the fall

commencement and I referred to that in

the president's charge is that you're

the marketplace that they're going into

now

>> is dramatically different than it was

when they just started their educational

journey.

>> My goodness, it is. Yes. So what they

were learning as freshmen is so much

different. The job that they're might

that they're looking to go into now

didn't even exist probably when they

were freshman.

>> Yeah.

>> And we as the administrators of

education and the delivers of education,

we have to understand that.

>> We have to understand that the world

moves so much faster than it ever has

before. that change is so rapid and it

and it's it's it's not just the speed,

but it's the pace of change that's

really the key.

>> And so we're sending our young women and

men into a world of smart machines,

artificial intelligence. So we have to

enable them to be agile.

>> Right.

>> Right.

>> So they will have a a major, right? A

area where they they are leaving as a

journeyman, an entry- level expert, so

to speak, right? um they learn their

craft in the doing of that craft but we

also have to teach them those aspects.

Everybody talks about STEM today,

>> but liberal arts remains very important

because the core of liberal arts is

developing an educated person, a person

who can think.

>> Yes.

>> Who analyzes and questions?

Who who thinks about artificial

intelligence and says how should I apply

that? What's the effect it's going to

have within my organization? What's the

effect it's going to have at the

populace, with my customers? You you be

thinking people. We have to graduate

thinkers,

thinking leaders, feeling leaders, not

bleeding, you know, as they say, but you

you you have to understand that

>> change requires you to change and we

have to equip them to be agile.

>> What a perfect word. I'm I'm blessed

that uh so I want to just follow up on

that like you give advice to young

people right now. So, I'm I'm just

crazy they selected me of all human

beings, but I'm a member of the College

Football Hall of Fame, the National

Football Foundation board. And so, we're

dealing with all these graduating

athletes all the time and we're trying

to equip them to go out into the

marketplace. And uh I wish I would have

thought of the word agility and telling

them how to pivot. But if you were to

give advice to somebody right now that's

say 25 and under and they're looking

ahead with a a vision for their future

and they're scared,

>> you know, there there are I think

there's actually more fear in the

marketplace right now about what is all

of this going to mean two three four

what industries will even exist any

longer. Just curious because you're

you're right in the middle of all this

stuff every single day. What would your

advice be to a young person who's

looking ahead at their future and what

they should they continue education past

graduation? Maybe it's not formal

education, but it's reading and

listening to things all the time, etc.

>> You you hit it. The capac the human

capacity um is unlimited.

>> And what we should be doing as educators

is helping to unleash that human energy.

>> And they have to be constant learners.

They can't see themselves graduating as

okay I'm done with that now I'm going to

go out they have to be constant learners

>> because that that job today processes

may affect it technology may affect it

so you have to be as I said to the to

the graduates yesterday you have to be

attuned to external trends

>> and external trends are those things

that people are talking about

>> things that people are investing in

>> things that people are spending their

time on

>> and you have to be attuned to that in

your area of endeavor

>> what is happening because if you embrace

external trends and this is really uh

I've read this about you're thinking

about an organization it's why I think

about this but it's true with people

organizations uh Jeff Bezos talked about

this years ago about being a day one

organization versus a day two

organization having a startup mentality

versus having that I've got it made

mentality which is this which day two is

on your way out at some point in time

>> and and what I said to the graduates is

this you have to have the the sense of

constantly learning recognizing external

trends because if you embrace external

trends there will be a a tailwind for

you

>> just like an organization if you fight

against external trends it's going to be

a headwind and you're going to have a

problem. So those who don't embrace uh

AI in the classroom, don't em embrace it

in the delivery of learning and how you

shape your learning environment, you're

not preparing your students, your

graduates for the world that they're

going to face.

>> So good. I let you jump in. I just want

to second that just for the audience

too. That's sort of been my own mindset

in my life is like what do I identify as

as a human? I'm a learner.

>> Yeah. And I could tell you of the 850

guests that have been on the show, and I

sense this with you as well. If you ask

me what what's a through line, not of

all of them, but of the majority of

them, it's that no matter what level of

success you think they've attained, they

are still grinding and learn. I remember

the first time I had my, you know, Alex

Rodriguez has been on the show before,

but post his career, first time I met

with Alex,

>> we were at at a home and he literally

brought out a yellow tablet. I thought,

you're you're Alex Rodriguez. I'm just

me writing notes. um after guests that

have been on the show whether it's you

know McCCA or even a a guy like David

Sinclair who's a professor at Harvard

asking questions of me or other guests

and constantly learning I think that can

eliminate a lot of your fear as well so

I love that agility and the idea of

learning me interrupt you fear

>> is important the point I'm glad you

mentioned that because

you you can't you can't be afraid of

taking that first step

>> and you have to encourage we encourage

our students don't be afraid of taking

that first step because every journey,

no matter how long or how short, starts

with that first step.

>> Yeah.

>> And if you don't take that first step,

you never know what that destination

could look like.

>> So, you can't allow fear to to freeze

you.

>> Okay.

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>> Yeah. So good. you know, um, we bet

through, uh, our good friend Brandon

Simmons.

>> He's a good man.

>> He's he's a really good guy. And and I I

have this curiosity. I mentioned this to

you, which is, you know, you're both

lawyers and very good at what you did in

terms of law. And then you come in as

president of the college having had a

military career and and been at another

institution. And Brandon's very

entrepreneurial and you're working

together to create this change. What was

it like having the the what I would call

a more structured background and working

with someone who's a bit more

entrepreneurial and what has that done

do you believe for the relationship that

both of you had with the school in terms

of change?

>> Well, you know, with anyone I had to uh

listen uh that's so important listening

to understand how Brandon thinks.

>> Yeah. Um uh and and it doesn't take long

uh because once you listen to him, you

see

his heart is about doing good for

people, doing good for others.

>> It was never a conversation that he and

I had about that university where it

wasn't about how do we make good things

happen for these students. M

>> how can I take the relationships I have,

the contacts I have, how can I take that

and turn that into something that

creates benefits for these students?

>> Never a conversation that did not

involve that I had with him.

>> Uh what made the relationship and

continues to make the relationship with

him so easy is that he's an honest

person.

>> Yeah.

>> He's just a sincere, authentic, honest

person.

>> And so I can trust what he says. Uh and

I hope he feels he can trust what I say

and that's why I feel that our

partnership uh worked.

>> Yeah.

>> Because I respect and admire his

achievements and uh he I sometimes I

felt like Brendon stop and he would

never stop talking about how happy he

was that brought me brought me to the

university.

>> And so uh I think it's just a mutual

admiration society between he and I. I

just I love the guy. He's he's a

wonderful person.

>> I wonder

>> and has a beautiful family.

>> I'm happy to hear you say that. And and

you know, a lot of the audience that uh

that Ed has that listen to the show

regularly, the clients that I've worked

with for years are entrepreneurs.

>> And there's a stigma sometimes in

entrepreneurship that it's hard to have

a partner in business.

>> And I'm happy to hear you say that

because you're both partnered in

supporting all these students,

>> right,

>> in a leadership capacity, solving a

problem for them, giving them a better

education. And I found in my years as an

entrepreneur that it's not always

horrible to have a partner. You just

have to find that trust and be able to

listen to each other and get curious

about each other to make it work. And I

think for the audience sometimes they

hear no, you've got to go it alone.

You've got to hustle if you're going to

build a business. It's hard to rely on

other people. Even in in the book ETH,

>> you know, um Gerber says that people

will disappoint you and people quote

that all the time

>> and I think that's true in some senses,

right? you build your systems and then

you find great people that can work the

system. But I think there's times where

partnership is actually the valuable

thing to do and it's just encouraging

that that that partnership.

>> You know, it's funny you say that people

disappoint you. You know, I've wor I had

the the pleasure to work in the Navy to

work with some really really incredible

human beings

and also see and observe really good

commands and see and observe commands

that weren't that good.

>> Yeah. But the through line of that was

that

the people, whether they're in a good

command or in one that's not performing

where it perhaps is expected to perform,

they all want to do well.

>> Yes.

>> People at their heart, most people at at

their core want to do well. They want to

be valued and they want to be delivering

something of value

>> in what they're engaged in because they

want to see that they are actually doing

something that matters.

>> Yeah.

>> So I think you know

>> you guys know where where I'm going to

where I took this from.

Excellence breeds character and

character breeds excellence.

>> Yes. And if you expect excellence of

your folks, the ones you work with, they

will soon begin to demand excellence of

themselves and those around them.

>> Yeah.

>> And when that happens, you've got

something that's so good.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I know the humility button was

number two there, but just for a second

try to step out of that because I want

people to live through you for a minute.

>> I imag your life's been remarkable. I

mean, your resume is so long that I

wanted Michael to do the introduction

because it's just there's there's too

much.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I understand the humility hat, but I

but I want you to take people on a

journey with you. I have to imagine as a

little boy, if I had to have asked you

what your life was going to turn out,

I'm sure you had big dreams, but it's

been one remarkable life that you've

led. What is that like? I mean, there's

a lot of dreamers and people with hopes

and dreams that listen as well or are

watching and they don't ever really get

I think if you can, you know, there's

this great uh Chinese proverb that says

if you want to know the road ahead, ask

those coming back,

>> right?

>> And you've been down a long road in your

life. Did you ever suffer with uh

imposttor syndrome like I I'm not

prepared for this or I'm not equipped or

I'm not ready or whatever it might be. I

don't come from, you know, your family

seems remarkable, but you know, you were

the highest ranking military officer in

the Navy who was an attorney. I mean,

that's a pretty significant achievement.

Did you ever get out over your skis a

little bit? And if you did, how did you

handle it?

>> Every position that I was blessed to

take, I was like,

>> really,

you know, am I capable of doing this? I

mean, it was it's a lot. I was an

athlete uh for many years. I would my

family as I said modest uh financial

resources. So my dad my dad told me at

an early age I I can't send you to

college

>> but you need to go. So you need to

figure out how you're going to get

there.

>> Be really smart or be really good at

something. And fortunately jeans and I

grew

and uh I loved running up and down

hardwood floors

>> and so that uh paved my way through uh

college.

>> That's awesome. and and so every before

every game I was always nervous but once

the ball went up

>> those nerves went away and you just

perform you know you you either in times

of stress or in times of performance you

become who you are

>> or you revert to your training or to how

you've practiced and that's and so um I

think it's important to always

as I say, "When you look in that mirror,

be astounded." When when I would look in

the mirror and see in my uniform and see

those three stars, I would be astounded.

Is that really me?

>> Wow.

>> And not to see that as of course that's

me.

>> I never saw it like that because I was

like, really? I was a little kid who

literally lived on a dead end street

because you couldn't go through the

street on that end. And um I had a lot

of dreams, but I wasn't certain how

those dreams were going to come true.

And one of the first things I said to

Brandon, which he he has repeated from

time to time, is that I love Texas

Southern University because these

students are just like I was. They don't

know how they're going to get there, but

they really want to get there badly.

>> Yeah.

>> And and so I want to be the one to help

them, just like so many helped me get

there. So I think having that sense

whatever that position you have of

significance having a sense of being

astounded that it's you

>> because those three stars could have

been on any number of my peers

>> because those folks were so very good.

>> All right, I'll give you one more

question then I get one to finish.

>> You know um in preparing for this I I

read a little bit about you growing up

and working on your grandfather's

tobacco farm.

>> Yeah. Um, my grandfather's a World War

II Korean War vet. He was in the Army

Airore,

>> you know, before it became the Air Force

and he lived with us for six months out

of the year. And some of the best

lessons I took away in life on

leadership and character came from my

time with him.

>> I'm curious what what did you take away

that you still uh, you know, live or

breathe or use in your leadership today

from your time on that farm with your

grandfather? you know, that was such

wonderful times. Um, I grew up in

Charlotte, North Carolina. That's where

I went to school.

>> Um, I wasn't a cradle Catholic. As I

said, I was born into an African

Methodist Episcopal uh family. Um,

and through the week I went to Catholic

school because my dad worked out a deal

with the nuns at the Catholic school and

said, "If you let my son I can't I can't

afford the tuition, but if you let my

son go to school here, I'll develop a

sports program for you."

>> Yeah.

>> The mother spirit, shook his hand, got a

deal.

>> It's coming together for me. So I would

spend the weekend in in Catholic school

going to mass on Fridays and then the

weekend in the Methodist church. Uh and

I had the the greatest benefit of faith

raising because I had the best of the

Protestant development and came to

embrace the Roman Catholic liturgy. Uh

and and and so it's been such a

remarkable journey for me. And I would

go down to eastern North Carolina,

Clinton, North Carolina in the summer.

Spend two months every summer on the

farm working in with my dad, my

grandfather's uh tobacco farm. He had

been a sharecropper and then had started

farming on his own. And um that was

perhaps the most impactful classroom

>> than any that I was I ever attended

because working with those folks who

were you hear the term salt the earth?

Yes,

>> they were authentic, genuine people who

it was neighbors. How do you They

expected that they need they would have

to at some point in time help their

neighbor.

>> Uh if you were someone that could create

job opportunities like my granddad, uh

working his working in tobacco, uh you

did that. Um, and those folks were

constantly teaching me, constantly

teaching me something, constantly

talking to me about things, helped me

understand what life's about and their

expectations of me because I was getting

an education,

>> right? And their expectations of me like

they didn't want to see me in that

tobacco field. They had much higher

expectations. Now, don't get me wrong.

>> Sure. Farming is one we we farming is

such an important capacity that we have

in this country. The best farmers in the

world. Yes. This country we can feed the

world from this nation. That's something

to be extremely proud of.

>> But in that subsistence farming that he

was engaged in, they had such greater

such higher aspirations for me.

>> Um and that motivated me to I can't let

these people down.

They're investing in me. And so that's

what I try to do.

>> I try to invest in those that are around

me.

>> You asked me about, you asked me a

question earlier about why did I take

one direction versus another after

retiring.

>> When I retired in 2018, my sons, I have

twin sons.

>> They were 18 on the fourth. Uh, and so

it's hard to believe. And um,

>> and they were 11 years old

>> and had seen me. Uh, all they knew of me

was wearing a uniform,

>> being gone, doing things and and and

serving.

And I and I had always talked to them

about the same way I was spoken to about

services, faith, family, and service.

Those things are so important. What are

you giving back? What are you giving?

What are you contributing into your

community? Whe how large or how small it

is, what are you doing? So, I didn't

want them to take the lesson, okay, now

they design a uniform that none of that

matters anymore. That was just for them.

That's not real. So I wanted them to see

that service can continue and it doesn't

have to be in uniform. You don't have to

be in uniform to serve this country or

your community. Uh service is so many

different uh comes in so many different

forms.

>> Yeah.

>> And so it was I wanted them to see that

that is something that is value to your

community, of value to your state, value

to your country.

>> I think you're doing that today. By the

way, compliment about sons. I was

thinking about halfway through this. I

can't wait for my son to listen to this

one.

>> Yeah, I really can't. Yeah, I mean that.

Let me ask you one last question. We I

First off, you could you can come back

anytime you want

>> because we could go hours. You guys are

great.

>> This flew by.

>> I love hanging out with you guys.

>> Well, I'm lo I'm loving this. I'm

honored. I I just got a chance to meet

you today. So, thank you so much. Thank

you for your service as well.

>> Is there something This is a hard

question, but it's just like if I ask it

something I could just tell there's a

treasure chest in there. Something's

going to come out when I ask it. So, I'm

going to open up right now. Is there

something that you used to really

fundamentally believe about leadership

that you no longer do?

>> Something changed.

>> You went, I used to think this and now I

think that.

>> So, I used to think that it was was

really the leader had to be the sharpest

tool on their given subject, right? So,

law was mine, right? So, I really had

to, you know, got to know my stuff. Now,

you you do need to have uh a level of

competence in your in your area, but

that's really not the most important

thing. Showing that you know most are

you the best flyer? Are you the best

>> ship driver? I don't think that's the

key. Um and I no longer believe that.

>> Uh particularly in an age when you can

ask Siri anything and Siri can give an

answer, right? Uh I really don't think

that's the key any anymore. Uh so that's

something that I would say uh has

changed. Uh because I think it's more

important to understand

where you what's your reservoir of

strength. Mhm.

>> Where do you draw? What do you draw on

when you have to be the when you're the

person when things are challenging,

all eyes turn to?

>> What is it that you're going to draw on?

If all you have to draw on is that your

talent or your intellect, you are

eventually going to

come into a situation a storm of such

magnitude that you're going to be unmed

and you're going to be a drift and rules

because talent and intellect is not

going to be enough.

>> Wow. So you have to and it will be

different for everyone

>> but you have to understand as a leader

>> what is my reservoir of strength

>> for me it has it's is faith.

>> Yes.

>> I don't get it right I get it wrong. I'm

an unfinished vessel. I'm like that

piece of clay on the the the sculptor's

hands that's being shaped by the the the

vagaries of life. Uh but

if you have once you figured out what

that is for you,

>> then you can withstand whatever that

storm may be whenever it comes. And my

dad said to me, you do not get to choose

your time of testing, but you do get to

choose how you're going to respond at

that moment of testing.

>> Wow. And do you and do you just turn in

to yourself and make it about you or do

you turn out when all those eyes are

looking at you

>> and you're ready to lead forward.

>> This has been like a master class today.

I'd love to meet your father, too. My

goodness.

>> Um Jim,

>> thank you.

>> This was extraordinary today.

>> Thank you for having me. It was it was

so much fun.

>> It flew by. Michael, thank you so much

for organizing this. And uh that was

Admiral James Crawford. Everybody,

>> by the way, he's the president of Texas

Southern University. You should go check

out that university. You're thinking of

sending your kids somewhere because you

can obviously tell they'd be in great

hands with this leader with this man.

Thank you so much.

>> Thank you. It was a pleasure.

>> Today was tremendous everybody. God

bless you. Share this episode with

anybody who wants to lead better, who

wants to strengthen their faith, or

wants to know anything about their

education in their life. All right, you

guys. God bless you. Max out. Heat.

Heat.