This is Bloomberg Business Week Daily,

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global business, finance, and tech news

as it happens. Bloomberg Business Week

Daily with Carol Masser and Tim Stenc on

Bloomberg Radio.

>> Hi everyone, welcome to the weekend

edition of Bloomberg Business Week. This

week we were live at the Bloomberg Tech

Summit in San Francisco.

>> The summit brings together leaders

across tech and business. It brings

insightful conversations and connections

around today's cutting edge technologies

and how they affect business and beyond.

>> Today we're going to bring you some of

our favorite conversations from the

event. We'll hear from leaders across

the tech sector, including CEOs, tech

executives, and even a Grammy

award-winning rapper and producer. First

up this hour, we spoke with Samir Samat,

president of the Android ecosystem at

Google.

>> How do you position Android in the

United States versus how you position it

globally where it is more widely

adopted? Well, Android is an open-

source operating system which is really

great because it allows people to build

all kinds of different devices. So, of

course, we know that uh Android is

popular for phones today where there's

over, you know, three and a half billion

Android devices that are used every day.

It's the most widely used operating

system in the world. But Android is so

much more than phones. People use it for

cars. They use it for televisions. They

use it for uh for smart watches and all

kinds of new devices, including some

smart glasses that we're working on for

for later this year as well. So, it's

really become much more than phones and

it's a whole ecosystem.

>> How do you think about an operating

system within an AI world that is we're

still kind of figuring it out, right?

We're all finding our way here.

>> Well, it's a it's changing a lot. You

know, things are changing all around us.

And I think the way we think about this

moment is you we're moving from an

operating system to what I call an

intelligent system. Um, one that is able

to be more predictive, uh, and more

helpful in the moment for you. So

instead of, you know, making you the

micromanager of your device, which is

the way I think computing's worked for

40 years, it's you have the idea in your

head and you use a pointing device or

taps to take that idea and do all the

things you need to do to get things

done. in this new AI era, how can we

actually make the system much smarter?

So, you give it your intention, your

goal, and it can translate that into the

action that it needs to take to help you

get more done. Yeah, I want to push on

that a little bit because I I still

think when when right now when a lot of

people think about AI, they they equate

it with LLMs and they think about LLMs

not necessarily as, you know, uh clogged

code or or or helping us buy code, but

rather as glorified search engines and

that actually does search a lot better

than than we've grown up using. H how

what is the value proposition for an

ecosystem in the world of AI? because

you're explaining this idea of us being

more productive as a result of this

technology, but I don't even know what

that looks like. Is it predictive? Does

it know what we want before we want it?

Like what is it?

>> Which is gets a little creepy then

potentially potentially potentially. Let

me give you one simple example that I

used the new release of Android with

Gemini for recently on my on my uh Pixel

device, which is, you know, I had a list

of folks that are coming to a barbecue

that I'm holding and next to each person

I had how many people are coming in

their family. Are they vegetarian? Are

they not vegetarian? You know, the

normal thing you do when you're throwing

a party, you make this list.

>> But like where do you put that list?

Does that go in Google Docs or

something?

>> I think I just had it in an email that I

was writing to myself, you know, like we

all do sometimes. And I asked Gemini

working on my Pixel device, can you take

this list,

analyze it, figure out how many

hamburgers, how many hot dogs, how many

buns, and then go to Instacart and add

it all to my shopping cart, and then let

me check it out. Okay? And you know, it

took that, figured out all the

vegetarians, figured out all the things,

figured out how many people are coming,

how many kids, how many kids, and it did

it for me. And so that probably saved

me, I don't know, six, seven minutes.

You add that up multiple times a day

throughout all the things that we're

doing and that's really helpful.

>> Samir, what do you think in terms of the

conversations that we're having about

artificial intelligence? Cuz I do feel

like you and I were talking about this

at dinner last night. We're just

scratching the surface in terms of

certainly how we use it and how we need

to push ourselves to better understand

what this tool can do or eventually do.

Well, I think the most important thing

right now is uh for all of us that are

in the industry or even around the

industry is to make sure we have on

hands-on experience. You know, uh one of

the things we tell our our teams and I

tell my kids as well is we should engage

with the technology to understand how it

can help you and what the limits of it

are and it's changing so quickly. What I

tell folks is even if it wasn't able to

help you with something this month, put

a note for yourself and check back 3

months later because it's moving so

fast. What what I think is important

about your example is that you had the

initiative to actually ask Gemini to do

that. I think that the challenge in this

world is that a lot of people don't know

that LLMs like Gemini can actually do

that sort of thing. So they wouldn't

even know that with that example AI

could save them six or seven minutes.

How do you communicate that to to a a a

population that has no idea what this

technology can do? truly has no idea.

>> You know, in the beginning when these

interfaces came out, you had a chat

prompt and we didn't know what we could

type into it. And I think people do

discover over time by by trying things.

But most importantly, the software

itself, this is where the operating

system can be really helpful. You know,

you when you talk about an intelligence

system, it should be able to understand

from you what your intention is. You

know, what's my goal? What am I trying

to get done? Oh, I'm planning a party.

Okay. Well, did you know I can help you

with this? You know, and to prompt you

to do that and to to show you how that

it can assist you in that moment. And

that's a different kind of user

interface than what we've seen.

>> What I have noticed is with Google

search, it's it's actually pushing me to

Gemini within within web- based Google

search and it's becoming very natural.

So, it's sort of like I'm not starting

at Gemini. I'm starting at Google search

and then using it interacting with

search like an LLM.

>> Well, I'm glad it's helping you. I mean,

that's great. You know, we have we have

so many different tools that that that I

think are are there for folks. And I I

just want to uh give one small example

of one um called Notebook LM. And if

you're um if your viewers haven't

checked out Notebook,

>> people love this.

>> Yes. I mean, Notebook LM is one of my

favorites. And um you know, on the

Android app, for example, for notebook

LM, my son, who just finished finals, um

he was like, "Dad, can you help me study

for for the science final?" Um and I

said, "Sure." uh overly confident as I

am about this. And then he gave me the

material and I looked at it and I said,

"I haven't reviewed this in years, you

know, but tonight I have to do a study

session with him." So, I put it all in

Notebook LM. And it gave me an audio

podcast that I listened to on the way

home. And when I got home, I looked like

Super Dad, you know, because I could

answer these questions and go back. This

is where it starts to become helpful.

And I think it's all about in the the

purpose the the way in which we use this

technology in a purposeful intentful way

to help make our lives better. And

that's what we're trying to do.

>> So let's go there because last month

when you guys announced a bunch of

upcoming features for your Android 17

operating system, you made some comment

about there is a great concern about AI

for AI sake and we want to be very

purposeful. What does that mean? Well, I

I mean I think if you if you look at any

just go talk to people, the word AI has

become pretty overloaded and I think

people are they have mixed feelings

about it. Let's just put it that way. Um

I think what they really want is to not

hear about the technology. What they

really want is to hear about how is this

going to help me? Um, I gave the

notebook LM example, but you know, there

there's so many more that when you when

you talk about how this can help you, it

it it changes the conversation. I'll

give you one of my favorites from

Android. Android has a feature called

circle to search. Okay? And circle to

search is really simple. You'll hold

down the home button and then you see a

flash and at that point you can circle

anything on your screen. Let's say you

you have a celebrity on your screen

wearing a great outfit. circle it and

say shop the look and it bring Google

will go take what they're wearing and

figure out what the jacket is, what the

tie is, what all the different pieces

and bring back each of those to you so

you can figure out where to buy them and

if they're right if they're right for

you. There's a ton of AI behind the

scenes there. That's not the important

thing. The important thing is that it's

super helpful, packaged in a way that's

intentful, purposeful for the user to

help them get something done that they

couldn't do before. Samir, where do you

think AI impacts our world the most? Is

it in our personal lives? Is it in our

work lives? Is it everything? We keep

talking about what it's going to mean

for our health care and medical world.

Like where do you see it impacting our

world the most or will it be everything?

>> Well, I think there's a number of places

that it's already impacting our world.

But I think you know if you if you take

the the discipline of software

engineering for example, that's going

through a lot of change. I think

exciting change but also there are

people who are concerned changes you

know with that as well. I think in the

end it will be very productive and we're

going through that same change at Google

as well but I think if you look at every

industry there are amazing applications.

If you look at biotech there will be

amazing applications. If we look at uh

as you said healthcare you know there

will be amazing applications. I'm

wearing my new uh Fitbit Ace.

>> Yeah. If you're listening on radio

Samir's got a Fitbit on one wrist. It

looks like an Android watch. I have a

pixel watching

ring. He's got to check out what the

competition

>> you have any others to recommend all

ears. So I I I want to go back to this

whole idea of the ecosystem and and how

it relates to AI and Gemini and and and

the stickiness of it because I I I think

that's a a a part of the conversation

that really has has just recently

occurred to me and and I'm wondering

what advantage you think Google has

having Gemini as its own AI operating

system along with Android and that

working seamlessly across whether we're

talking about your Fitbit, whether

you're talking about an Android phone,

whether talking about a pixel watch uh

versus sort of third party LLM like uh

you know claude or chat GPT.

>> I want to say a couple things about

that. First um you know Android is an

open platform and so one of the things

that's a central tenant of Android is

choice. So Android is the only mobile

operating system where you can choose

your personal assistant. You can choose

the agent that's important to you. So if

you want Gemini, you can use Gemini. If

you want claude or something else, you

can choose that

>> and those will work equally well.

>> Yeah. The idea with Android is that it's

open and so you should be able to plug

in what's important to you. That's a

fundamentally important part of Android

and um and I think it's an advantage in

this world while things are moving fast.

From a Google perspective, of course,

Google competes with some of those

companies and I think Google has a

unique position in that it has a full

stack of of innovation that it's worked

on over over a decade from the from

silicon unique silicon in the data

center foundational models all the way

through to the operating system. And we

want to connect those things in ways

that are powerful and that help

consumers live uh live better lives.

That that's what we're doing. In fact,

recently we announced something called

Gemini Intelligence. Gemini Intelligence

is the best Gemini experience available

on the most premium Android devices. So

take a Samsung device or Pixel device

and that's really where you can

experience the best of that entire

stack. Do you think being open source

and being able to let users choose and

select what their agent will be will

give you guys longer term advantage?

Because I do think there's folks say

that at some point there's going to be

some shake out cuz we're not going to

need necessarily

every big LLM. Like at some point people

are going to financially we heard it

from the Cerebras CEO last night that

people are going to select kind of what

they need and why.

>> Well, I think that competition is good.

Um and I think that it's led to a ton of

innovation. I mean, look at all the

change we're seeing. That's fueled by

everyone competing, which is great. From

an Android perspective, the thing about

Android being open source and being an

open ecosystem, it means that we work

with many, many different partners.

>> That was Samir Samat, president of the

Android ecosystem at Google. You're

listening to a special edition of

Bloomberg Business Week. Coming up, more

conversations from our trip out west to

the Bloomberg Tech Summit in San

Francisco. I'm Jim Stenc along with

Carol Masser. This is Bloomberg.

>> This is Bloomberg Business Week Daily

with Carol Masser and Tim Stenc on

Bloomberg Radio.

>> Welcome back to a special edition of

Bloomberg Business Week. We are taking a

look at some of our conversations from

this past week when we were live at the

Bloomberg Tech Summit. Up next, we spoke

with Yoshua Benjio, founder and

scientific adviser at Mila Quebec AI

Institute. He's a leading expert of

artificial neural networks and deep

learning.

>> Professor, good to have you on the

program. You chair the International AI

Safety Report.

>> We'll just start there. Is AI safe?

>> No. That's the problem. We're building

systems that we don't know how to

control. They they they will behave

sometimes against our instructions. And

that is this lack of reliability is both

a scientific challenge and a problem for

deployment of AI.

>> So how do we okay if we use social media

as the example? We failed that

experiment. I think many would say that

we did not keep ahead in terms of

oversight regulations. We could go into

all the things that have gone wrong and

how it's impacted society. What faith do

you have that we get this right? And it

can't just be the US deciding or Europe

deciding. It's got to be a global work

or progress on this.

>> Absolutely. Safety is a global question

because a dangerous model, I mean, one

that can be misused in dangerous ways

like like Memphis, for example, could be

designed in one country and then

somebody in a second country uses it to

attack a third country and and you know,

so the Americans need to make sure the

Chinese models are not used against the

US and vice versa. It is a an

international question. Can I ask you is

it like um missiles and nuclear weapons

and that there will be a mutual

deterrence because everyone will be

proficient on some level when it comes

to AI.

>> There are analogies. Um, I think one of

the big differences is that there isn't

as much money to be made with nuclear

weapons as there is with AI, which means

the incentive structure is now pushing

companies towards going faster and

faster and not paying enough attention

to the safety issues and and you know

the public protection.

>> But but I think one thing that that I

think concerns a lot of people is that

okay, you could have let's just use

Anthropic as an example. You have

Anthropic and what they're doing with

with Mythos, but just because Anthropic

has that right now doesn't mean Deep

Seek couldn't have that 6 or 8 or 12

months from now or even something more

powerful.

>> That's right.

>> So it it doesn't matter if like one

country is doing things a certain way or

one company is doing a certain way if

the entire world

>> is not actually adhering to a certain

set of framework.

>> Exactly. That is why we need

international coordination. Initially

it's probably going to be just the US

and China. But at some point as other

countries are also you know beefing up

their capabilities it has to be

international.

>> What what keeps you up at night? Like

lay out the doomsday scenario for us.

>> Well there are like many catastrophic

risks because intelligence gives power

and that power could be in the wrong

hands could be used by terrorists or

countries which want to destabilize us.

It could be used even by the people in

power to create you know a dictatorship.

And we don't know how to make sure AIS

themselves will not use that power

against us.

>> But how? Like harnessing social media,

logging in like taking infrastructure

offline like like give us concrete

examples of what these entities could

do. So what the companies are worried

about right now are cyber attacks

because these AIs really have a lot of

knowledge of computing and

vulnerabilities and on their radar and

the evaluations are making is also the

use of AI to build dangerous viruses. So

you could think of people using AI to

create new pandemics. Um they're also

worried about what happens when AI

itself is used to create the next

version of AI. So AI doing AI research

and if we don't control these systems,

they could put back doors to create AIs

that are not like friendly to us.

>> Okay, now I'm now I am worried.

>> So in other words, you're talking about

AI that can think on its own and work on

its own.

>> Well, that's already the case. The whole

point of agents is that they're

autonomous. They have goals and they

work towards those goals. The real

question is who controls those goals? We

would like to be the ones in charge, but

right now we're we're not we don't have

the technical answers to to make sure

that's the case.

>> Joshua, do you regret then the work that

you did years ago?

I think I should have been seeing ahead,

you know, earlier that we were building

something that could become extremely

powerful and that we don't know how to

control and that it would impact

societies in which that currently, you

know, on the current trajectory could be

could be destructive.

>> So, okay, but here we are, right?

>> Yes. And it sounds like

>> it does feel very doomsday and scary,

but I do

>> and it also feels like it's too late.

>> No, it's not.

>> But and I want to talk about that, but I

also feel like there's a lot of

potential to do some great things as

well.

>> Yeah.

>> Talk to us about that side.

>> Absolutely. I've been working for many

years on how we can use AI to design

better drugs in medicine more broadly.

uh how we can use AI to design like

better materials for for batteries for

energy storage

and I know a lot of people working for

example in how AI can help agriculture

can even help democratic debate tools.

The question is the same power that

enables these things also enables for

example in the case of biology dangerous

uses to to that that could really harm a

lot of people. Do the potential

positives outweigh the potential

negatives?

>> Well,

there's so much we don't know here. You

have to weigh in the uncertainty

>> and like it's

>> because it sounds great to have better

medicine. It sounds great to have more

efficient batteries. It sounds great to

have an ecosystem where people are able

to learn more and do quicker and be more

efficient. But none of that matters if

the AI agents are going to kill us.

>> Yes. or if we lose our democratic

institutions and we end up in a

dictatorship. So these are

>> but we're already having like if I think

about democracy let's go there right

we're already having these kinds of

problems and this is a pre get worse

there's studies showing that AI is now

getting better than people

>> at persuasion other words making people

change their mind imagine this applied

to change political opinions to change

public opinion this is like shaking the

foundations of what democracy rests on

>> you know I I don't know you know people

talk about the new industrial like

revolution they make comparisons do we

have any comparison in terms of the

impact AI

>> agents know I mean as usual

>> it's something else that's that's

changed our world dramatically the light

bulb

>> as usual I think you know the past can

tell us things but you have to realize

we've never been in a situation where we

built technology machines that would be

smarter than us in many ways and and

it's already the case in you know

various domains and it's just growing.

There's there's nothing in history like

we built machines that help us

physically that have much more powerful

like muscle wise but brainwise this is

completely new.

>> We're speaking with Yosua Benjio founder

and scientific adviser at Milo Quebec AI

Institute co-president and scientific

director at LZero. It's focused on

building safer AI agents. The

productivity question is one that we

want to get to. the the investment

that's been made from a capex

perspective has just been so massive.

The promises are that this will actually

make us so much more productive and will

lead to to higher returns on investment.

Is that true?

>> I don't have a crystal ball but let's

say there are different scenarios about

how AI intelligence capabilities will

grow in the future.

I think the default is going to it's

going to continue on the same trend but

it could also saturate and then maybe

some of these promises will not be

organized. Um the other issue is even if

AI is more capable it doesn't mean that

it is behaving well. In fact there is a

like serious scientific hypothesis that

intelligence and the goals to which that

intelligence is put to use are like two

very different things.

>> All right. So we talk about races in the

world and this is certainly a tech race

an AI race right so it sounds like for

things to go better safer you've got to

have global collaboration so so what is

happening on that regard or what needs

to happen in your view based on your

knowledge you understand how this works

so what needs to happen to make sure

that we don't have AI taking over

>> I would say the most important thing

that needs to happen is better

understanding and awareness of what

we're talking about by the governments

around the world and of course China and

the US in the first place but but but

eventually you know many governments who

have researchers and companies building

AI as well because once we understand

the magnitude of the risks that we're

taking we'll sit down we'll sit down at

a table and negotiate

>> one of the things I want to go back to

what you said about productivity what

about the labor market like is it going

to create it's pretty tough for some of

those starting jobs I think of kids

coming out of college or like how what

does it mean for the global economy?

What does it mean for the labor force?

Does it create jobs? I mean building

data centers, yes, but what how do you

see it?

>> I mean the number of people needed for

data centers is peanuts compared to the

effect that AI could have on on the on

the job market. But the economists don't

agree. It it really depends on the curve

of advances in AI in the future. If it

continues at a current rate then yes

there will be massive automation coming

too quickly for society to adapt. Joshua

who who given the work that you've done

in this and understanding the potential

pitfalls of the technology names for us

who's doing this well who understands

the potential repercussions here I don't

name names I think there are a lot of

people who have good intentions the

issue that you know makes the current

dynamics

dangerous in some ways is the incentive

structure is the competition between

companies competition between countries.

>> So, so maybe let's I'll ask this

question a different way. What if what

if you could have Dario Ammed in a room

with Sam Alman along with Jensen Wong

along with the leaders of all the

hyperscalers

>> and then of course the leaders of the

Chinese companies as well. What would

you tell them? What do they need to

know?

>> So they know already,

>> right? they know what I'm talking to

tell them. Um, what they need to do is

to agree with each other on a set of

principles about safety and like careful

deployment of AI and they're already

talking about it. What they are asking

actually is governments to agree with

each other to make sure there's a level

playing field for all the companies so

that every company before they build and

deploy a very powerful AI needs to show

to the public to the governments that

their system isn't going to be like

dangerous in the wrong hands and and all

these issues we're talking about.

>> But are the financial incentives getting

in the way? The race is on. She's seems

like a business dilemma

>> and it's it's who can go fastest

>> and get it all done. So, does that

prevent it the right thing from

happening? Just got about 30 seconds.

>> Well, no. We we've dealt with situations

like this before. I mean, governments

have regulated things like drugs, you

know, trains, uh, meat, because if it

was just competition, we would end up

with, you know, dangerous food,

dangerous planes, uh, dangerous drugs.

But now we enjoy all these things that

are safe and useful because governments

have intervened.

>> So, in a word, yes or no, you're more

hopeful than worried?

>> Yes. Hopeful or no? I'm

I'm um I don't know. I mean I I I I feel

like it it's not my vision that matters.

It's the actions that we take

collectively.

>> That was Yoshua Benjio, founder and

scientific adviser at MA Quebec AI

Institute. Founder and scientific

adviser at MA Quebec AI Institute.

You're listening to a special edition of

Bloomberg Business Week. Coming up, more

conversations from our trip out west to

the Bloomberg Tech Summit in San

Francisco. I'm Tim Stanbec with Carol

Masser. This is Bloomberg.

>> This is Bloomberg Business Week Daily

with Carol Masser and Tim Stenc on

Bloomberg Radio.

>> Welcome back to our special edition of

Bloomberg Business Week. We were live at

the Bloomberg Tech Summit out on the

West Coast in San Francisco. Up next, we

speak with Rafie Creoran, chief

technology officer at Mosilla. People

know Mozilla as really the organization

behind Firefox. What are the

vulnerabilities though that Mythos

actually identified?

>> Yeah, I mean there's a bunch of them. A

lot of them had to do with being able to

break out of the browser itself and

actually execute code on your machine.

So like actually having JavaScript or

HTML come in and like just load it from

a web page and instruct the browser to

go do other things. So Mythos has been

very helpful for us to actually find

some of these really longstanding old

bugs and actually help us shut them

down. But what I noticed in the in the

blog post that that your team wrote

about this was that quote they wrote

quote we haven't we also haven't seen

any bugs that couldn't have been found

by an elite human researcher. So

was it as is it as powerful as everybody

says it is if if if a if a actual human

being could have identified these

things?

>> Yeah. No, I mean there's just a question

of just like how many elite human

researchers are there in the grand

scheme of things. So like, yeah, these

models are pretty powerful and they're

allowing us to do what like thousands of

these researchers could do instead of

just like six of them.

>> So would you have been able to identify

these with your own team?

>> We have a really good team. I think in

the fullness of time, yes, but like

allowing us to like rapidly accelerate

and just close out a bunch of stuff that

we didn't even know about.

>> So should we be freaked out about this

tech?

>> Yes, I actually think we should be. I

think we can like we'll be getting into

a world like once everything settles

down where things could actually be more

secure but like we're living in this

like intermediary zone. is the reason

why we should be scared because if

mythos is in the wrong hands they could

go to you know your bank and say uh okay

identify the vulnerabilities in you know

Rafy's account and then

>> they get access to your money

>> the bank the water company the power

company like all the critical

infrastructure of the world like I

actually have faith that the internet

folks will figure this out like we're

used to patching things and deploying at

scale like heart bleed when SSL had

problems

>> but I don't think my bank knows how to

do it like you said I don't think my

power company knows how to do But those

are like the other pieces of critical

infrastructure that I'm really worried

about.

>> I mean, you're CTO. You should tell

those CTO. Okay.

>> So, there are things that are happening.

Why isn't it happening more or is it and

where they're being caught or what?

Like, give us an idea.

>> Yeah. No, I think we need to have

actually a real large scale like Y2K

like effort to actually start closing a

bunch of these critical vulnerabilities.

And you know, many kudos to what

Anthropic is doing, but we need to give

access to more people like we need to

get access to all the open source

providers. We need to get access to all

the database providers and then we need

to fund them to actually start doing the

work. So not only do you need to clean

the bugs up, but then we also need to

start thinking about mitigation. Like

this is actually a large scale. Look,

think about how much work we did for

Y2K. Boards got involved, governments

got involved, insurance got involved. We

haven't kicked all those in yet.

>> Why aren't we doing that yet? Because

this is moving so fast. Is it just we're

is that it?

>> That's exactly the problem. I think this

is just moving so fast. like Mythos was

only really given to us in the like in

the in the winter time. It's only been a

couple of months, but the real question

is that open models are catching up. So

like I think it's only 6 to9 to 12

months when all the open models can

start doing what mythos are doing. So we

only actually have a small window of

time.

>> So then how do we get to a point where

you know you're sitting here with us a

year from now?

>> Mythos is going to be old news. Y

>> there's going to be some sort of next

model that is just that much better. How

do you how are you going to be sure that

it's a company that's you know quote

unquote responsible behind it like many

would say anthropic is being with this

roll out maybe too responsible in your

view um but how do you make sure that

it's not a bad actor who has this cut

>> yeah no I mean I think this is actually

where some government intervention might

not be a bad thing like actually making

sure that we put the right investment

into actually getting these things shown

deployed exactly the right

>> you've been to the post office

>> yeah I know 100% like

>> I mean And we but we do need to do all

this work across all the efforts. We

need to secure that post office too.

>> I don't disagree with you but I think

there are many people out there who say

this could be something that maybe the

free market would solve more uh

efficiently than a government

bureaucracy. You have experience in in

in in government sort of. So

>> no 100%. I mean in politics you have

experience.

>> I think the real problem is that public

sector infrastructure is not treated in

the same way. And so like we need to

figure out how to do the real investment

there. I don't think it's purely just

maybe a public private partnership

solves that but I don't think that's

purely a market problem.

>> Rafie you were the first CTO of the DNC

the Democratic National um committee

politics today we see the impact social

media

>> some goods some bad.

>> Sure.

>> Um on politics what about AI?

>> No I mean like I think about this a lot

like we living in this world where we're

like owners not renters on all this

technology like this techn like just

think about your search experience. It

used to be 10 blue links on Google and

now it's one result when I ask a chatbot

and it's a right result for somebody

like is it a right result for me? So I

really worry about this world where like

living in someone else's intelligence

all the time. What does that actually do

and how we think how we decide how we

buy all those kind of things.

>> Can we actually get ahead of that and be

better with it? I mean this is where I

really think we need to figure out how

to do open deployments and open

governance. Like right now the incentive

models are just such that like there was

a whole study based out of I think

University of Maryland where they just

asked a bunch of these chatbots to help

you buy something and they're vastly

weighted toward sponsored and promoted

goods. So like how do we make sure that

they're really on my side? I need to be

able to go into this, understand it,

tweak it, work with it as opposed to

just being delivered it. So we need to

start working at those kind of

questions. Now,

>> you you were talking a little bit about

your family earlier, and I'm just

wondering how how you as a CTO

>> and somebody who understands this

technology and the potential downfall

and and pitfalls of it rather, you sort

of have that diet, that information

technology diet.

>> I mean, can I tell you the pros and

cons?

>> Like, my 10-year-old is vibe coding

video games. Like, they're actually

unbelievable. Cute and stinky

production. They're like, it's like the

best thing ever. Um, and this is an

expression of creativity. my

13-year-old, I got a phone call from a

teacher saying, "I think you use Chat GP

to cheat on an essay." So, like, we do

need to figure out like how we actually

treat people. How do we do teach

critical thinking? Like, that's the

thing that's still missing. And that's

the thing I think we need to really home

in on. It's less about the tool, it's

about that critical.

>> So, how do you do it?

>> I think it's asking real questions. I

think it's having lots of conversation.

You know, the Pope is the encyclical

called it fasting from AI. So, like we

just need to figure out a way like we

need to teach them this new tech, but we

also need to just monitor and help them

like do productive struggle.

>> Um, we're being told we have one more

question with you and it's Twitter or

Uber.

>> So, go I say Tim's got to ask.

>> Yeah. I mean, you were you were at

Uber's advanced technology department.

This was like the precursor to

self-driving cars. It was this

department was killed a few years ago.

The promise was that you would have

driverless cars at at Uber.

the technology as it is today. I mean,

you walk outside of here, there are

Whimos going everywhere, not really in

New York City at this point, where are

we when it comes to just getting into a

car and it taking us where we need to go

and there's no steering.

>> I mean, it turns out to be a really hard

problem. This is one of the things we

learned, right? It turns out to be a

really hard problem to do generalized

self-driving, like to be able to drive

anywhere under any condition, under any

situation, like a city-by-city basis. It

seems to be working out like Whimos are

pretty good. You know, I recently

crashed my Tesla under full

self-driving. You did? I did. So, like

the Teslas clearly have problems. We

slammed into the wall at like 30 miles

an hour. Oh my god. And so, like we

there are clearly still problems with

all this technology, but

>> that doesn't sound like full

self-driving.

>> It doesn't sound like full self-driving.

I totally think that the Tesla

technology is not quite ready yet.

Whereas Whimo has been designed to

literally not have a wheel. The whole

human in the loop version of

self-driving I think is not the right

path that we should be going on and we

should be thinking about just like

actually tackling the real problem head

on.

>> 20 seconds left. What's the question we

should all be asking ourselves in this

environment today?

>> Yeah. I mean the question is like how do

we make sure all these technologies

we're deploying are actually on our side

not on someone else's side. Like I want

to live in a world of 7 billion AGI not

seven AGI. How do we get there?

>> That was Rafi Cororan chief technology

officer at Mozilla.

>> From silicon chips to platinum records.

Our next guest is a multi- Grammyinning

producer, rapper, and recording artist

who has spent over a decade engineering

the soundtrack to hip-hop culture.

Producing hit songs for artists

including Jay-Z.

What is Jay-Z? Producing hit songs for

artists including Jay-Z, Kanye West,

Kendrick Lamar, and Travis Scott. Here's

our conversation with Hit Boy.

>> So, this is all about technology. How

are you thinking increasingly about

technology and its impact on music?

Well, I started in uh music like using

tech. I used a program called FL Studio.

It was called Fruity Hoops back in the

day, but it's FL Studio now. And you

know, some of the biggest hits of our

generation in hip-hop and just popular

music have been made on FL. But when it

first came out, people were kind of

like, "Oh, it's just like a computer

program. It's not serious music making."

But, you know, tech is a it's always

going to advance mankind.

>> Is that where we are with AI today?

because people could actually just

create, you know, what they think of as

>> you know, Fruity Loops using AI.

>> Is that music?

>> It is. It's music for sure. You know,

you still have a person having to prompt

it. It can't just press a button and

prompt itself. So, just, you know,

imagination I feel like is at an

all-time high. If you have a great

imagination and you use that in your

work, you going to succeed.

>> But, but here's the thing. Isn't it all

trained on music that's already out

there? So,

>> well, not all of it. you know, there's

some people that train it on certain,

you know, different ways, but, you know,

however it's done, like I feel like, you

know, when MIDI came out, the the person

that studied the keyboard or piano for

20 years and learn grooves and melodies

was like, "What is this MIDI thing? You

can just import notes and then make it

sound like me, like, you know."

>> So, you're not worried about a loss of

creativity in this era? Not at all.

>> It's a boom. Isn't all music even

created without technology just drained

on all the music that we've kind of got

in our brain?

>> 1 million%. Yeah, for sure.

>> Hey, talk to us about We want to go back

to Universal. 18 years, right?

>> 18 years. Yeah.

>> Um, but you decided to go off on your

own. How did that change what you can

do?

>> Man, I feel like I've been uh just

empowered to the maximum

capability. like, you know, just like

being in that deal for 18 years, I

always kind of felt like I had a black

cloud over me. And as many hits as I did

make, I still feel like I wasn't in my

complete right mind because that was

always lingering. But now I'm completely

free and I got all these tools and all

these this knowledge I've gained over

the years. I feel unstoppable. So, what

did that relationship prevent you from

doing?

>> From

making the amount of money I should have

been making and uh just progressing

through my deal for, you know, the

amount of work I put in.

>> But was it the right thing for you early

in your career?

>> I guess so, cuz I'm here right now on

Bloomberg, you know what I mean? So, you

know, the hustle, the struggle, the

grief, you know, the grief, like it just

it it led me to this place where I'm I'm

just like I feel powered up, you know.

Tell us tell us about this solo album

that you've got coming out. Software

update.

>> Software update.

>> I love the name. Tell us though like

what this means to you.

>> It's beyond just the music, you know.

It's like updating yourself as a person,

just moving better, dressing better,

living better, whatever it is to update

yourself, you know, on a daily basis. Do

that, you know, working out, whatever it

is, eating right, like just, you know,

that you got to update the software just

like a computer.

>> What's it like going from somebody who's

known as a collaborator? You know, Carol

mentioned a few of the people you've

worked with, Jay-Z, Beyonce, North

Drake, and more to doing this to to to

doing this solo project.

>> To be honest, it doesn't feel any

different because I'm just a creative. I

get the same excitement and the same

high when I'm making a beat as if I do a

verse or if I engineer for a big artist.

Anything I do creatively that gives me

that spark, I'm enjoying it, you know.

>> What's a message you would like to send

to people with this album? Just got

about 30 seconds here. um lock in,

update your software, you know, just

look inside every day and just look in

the mirror and get better.

>> Hey, very briefly, is um YouTube what

MySpace was to you in the beginning of

your career? 10 seconds.

>> Yeah, I would say so for sure. You know,

I could just fire off as much as I want

to on YouTube.

>> That was Grammy award-winning rapper and

music producer Hit Boy. And that does it

for this special edition of Bloomberg

Business Week, focusing on our favorite

conversations from the Bloomberg

TechSummit out there in San Francisco.

Stay with us. Today's top stories and

global business headlines are coming up

right now.