Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> All right, we're up. What's up, man?

Good to meet you, man.

>> Good to meet you, too. Thank you so much

for having me out.

>> It's always weird when you watch a bunch

of a guy's content and then you meet

him. You know, it's very odd.

>> It is. There's a there's a parasocial

relationship thing there that that's a

little it's a little off-putting at

first. I I remember I had uh a long time

ago I got a notification I was being

followed on Instagram by Joel Male and I

was like sweet like texted my family and

then like a couple weeks later I got a

me a message from him and he was like

hey man big fan love your stuff we got

to hang out sometime and I was like all

right cool and

>> he's a really nice guy

>> he's he's incredible he's he's a

wonderful guy a lovely family and he was

coming out to Salt Lake City to do FanX

a couple years ago which is our version

of Comic-Con and I was like hey let's do

dinner.

>> Oh, yeah. You're a giant comic freak.

>> I am. Yeah. And uh he uh I was like,

"Let's do dinner." He's like, "It's a

date, but I'm a I'm a what did he call

himself? An arrogant foodie." So, he was

like, "So, I got to pick the the

restaurant." But he's like, "Let's let's

get on the phone and and chat for a

minute." And uh I called him. He picked

up the phone. He's like, "Dan Mlen, Joel

McCale." He's like, "This is so weird

talking to you." I was like, "Joel, I

promise you it's a lot weirder for me."

So, I I know exactly what that's like,

but uh

>> it's very odd. I try to give people as

much grace as possible when they meet me

because I've probably been in their head

more than, you know, with headphones and

for thousands of It's odd. It's odd

for me, so I'm sure it's odd for other

people, too.

>> And and I'm kind of like I don't even

recall if I'm proud of everything

they've ever said, but uh so I don't

know what kind of impression somebody

has of me.

>> Oh, I have a great impression of you.

>> Well, well, I I appreciate that.

>> And I'm certainly not proud of

everything I've said. So, we're all

good. We're all good

>> because I I don't really watch my stuff

uh back. I don't even remember a lot of

the stuff I've said. So,

>> oh, that's a real problem with me.

There's people that I forget I talk to.

Okay.

>> And then we bring them up in the

podcast. I'm like, gosh, you have that

guy on. And Jamie's like, we actually

had him on three years ago. It happens.

It happens once every six months.

>> Yeah. We deal with that when when we're

like, "What should we talk about today?"

I'm like, "I don't know. We talk about

this." And they're like, "Two weeks ago,

we talked about that."

>> Yeah. That is an issue with you, I would

imagine, more because you're dealing

with very specific structure and texts

and it's also something that you have

this incredible deep knowledge of. So

there's probably no way you can remember

the specific instances in which you

talked about it.

>> Yeah, definitely. It's it's an issue,

but it's also, I think, something that's

kind of baked into the reason my my

channel is so beneficial to a lot of

people because I can repeat stuff over

and over again because my as my audience

grows, there are always new people who

haven't been exposed to a lot of things.

So, there actually a handful of things I

kind of not programmatically, but every

six months or so, I'll be like, "Yeah,

it's probably time to talk about this

again." And then I I already have the

foundation there. I can recall most of

what I said. But yeah, I I do have to go

refresh my memory. what was that what

was that manuscript called? I got to

figure out, you know, translate that

again. Something like that. So, it is it

is both a blessing and a curse because

it means I can if I'm having a a slow

day, can't think of something to to talk

about, maybe I just recycle something I

did six months ago. And there are going

to be thousands of people who who hadn't

seen it before. So,

>> at least. Yeah. You have an enormous

library. Like, how many videos have you

put out all told? uh around 4,000

>> which is I I see people who put out that

many podcast episodes and that's that's

rarified error.

>> What do I think we're at 2,600

>> almost 2900

>> almost 2900 plus.

>> Oh that's including all the other ones.

>> Oh is that including all of them? Yeah.

So almost 3,000 including fight

companions, MMA podcasts, things of

those like

>> Yeah. But that's you know two to three

hours or more each too. Cooks cooks the

brain. Dan,

>> I don't know if it's good. My memory is

so weird. It's very good sometimes and

also terrible other times. And I think

my hard drive is overwhelmed.

>> I'm I'm the same way, particularly when

I'm on the spot. Like I I lose names.

>> Yeah.

>> Like like crazy. I went uh my kids were

like, "You should try it for Jeopardy."

And I went through the I got through the

first phase and then there were like

this uh not like an inerson thing but a

live online thing and I just froze up

everything. I was like I can see his

face. I know the dude inside. I can't

remember the name. I I freeze up a lot.

>> Do you do anything to enhance your

memory in terms of vitamins or

neutropics?

>> Um I

>> or neutropics. I don't know how to

pronounce it.

>> There is there is some research that is

suggesting uh creatine might be a little

more helpful for for brain function. So,

I actually I do 10 um I don't even know

if it's grams or milk. Yeah, 10 grams of

of creatine

>> uh every day. So, um I'm definitely

that's a choice that I've that I've

made. I I

>> try to minimize all the different stuff

I'm I'm putting in my body, but you

know, I I have a slew of vitamins and

and things like that that I'm taking in

addition to got to get the fiber cuz I'm

of a certain certain age. So,

>> that's debatable.

>> You think? Yeah.

>> Yeah. Oddly enough. Yeah. I mean, I'm

not I don't know where I stand,

honestly, uh because I I take in fiber

mostly in the form of fermented

vegetables. I'm a big kimchi fan.

>> Okay.

>> Um but there's quite a few people that

have zero fiber and it exists on a

carnivore diet. And I think a lot of

these people are people with autoimmune

issues that tend to have problems with

uh plant-based chemicals, like chemicals

that are in in plants. And and then

there's a real problem with the American

diet with it, which is glyphosate and

herbicides. There's a lot of different

herbicides and chemicals used in

industrial fertilizer that get into your

food.

>> And a lot of people have extreme

sensitivities to those things.

>> Yeah.

>> Perhaps due to prolonged exposure. It's

very difficult to parse out. You have to

talk to a bunch of different people

>> and a bunch of different people have

like different takes on it. But I know

quite a few very healthy people that

don't eat any fiber. Yeah. They just eat

like eggs and chicken and meat and fish

and that's it.

>> Well, for me it was definitely I noticed

when I took it

>> things were easier for me in the morning

and that was where I was like, "Okay,

then done. That's got what I'm going to

do."

>> There's a transitionary period. I did

the carnivore diet strictly once for 60

days. I've never done it for more than

that. U but for 30 days when I did it,

the first four or five, um the diarrhea,

my friend Tom Seigura described it as

remarkable. like it's breathtaking.

>> It's just derping. It's like what is

happening to me? But that settles down

after a while and then your bowel

movements are uh not as frequent but

very easy. It's just like it's like not

much and that's it because there's no

fiber. So, it's like what is left after

you chew all the meat and swallow it.

>> It's like that stuff comes out in the

wash and that's a wrap.

>> I'm not an expert in health and

nutrition. I'm not either. I've I've

absorbed a lot of information, but some

of us some of it contradicts. It's very

hard to know who's right and who's

wrong. And I think it's also it's it

varies biologically. It varies

genetically. It varies depending upon

where your ancestors are from. You know,

I there's a lot of people that I know

that have like real problems with red

meat and real problems with, you know,

certain like I have friends that are

vegan that exist healthy. They have no

problem with that diet. And then I know

friends who've tried it for ethical

reasons and their their health fell

apart and they're like, "Well, it.

I can't do this."

>> Yeah. I've uh the thing I try to pay

attention to is something called

FODMAPs. I'm have you heard of No. It's

>> and now I don't even remember what it

stands for the the acronym, but uh

basically it's there are certain kinds

of um

substances in in foods. The acronym is

FODMAP, but they occur a lot in breads

and a lot of um a lot of things with a

lot of carbohydrates in them. But they

>> Here we go. Oh, there we go.

>> Short-term three-step eating plan to

temporarily restrict specific poorly

absorbed sugars to help manage digestive

distress like bloating, gas, and

abdominal pain.

>> Okay.

>> So, I I I started noticing if I was

eating certain things throughout the

day, I was a lot more bloated and and

uncomfortable. By the time night came

around and and I did all kinds of

investigating and and I figured out when

I was avoiding things that are high in

FODMAPs, my I was just I felt better.

>> And what was the word again, Jamie? When

FOD's broken down again

>> bunch of words

>> it is a the word is fermentable

boy oligosaccharides

disaccharides and monossaccharides and

poly's polyols polyolles polyolles

shortchain carbohydrates and sugar

alcohols that small intestines absorb

poorly h what's in the category of those

things I was trying to get a picture of

does

>> it Okay.

>> I guess there's low and high.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. The more some things have are

higher in those things and some things

are lower. Look at this.

>> Uh

suitable on a low FODMAP diet. Fruit

obviously vegetables,

>> cereals, milk, tofu, and then the bad

ones, excessive fructose, lactose,

fruans,

galactans.

Hm. Legumes. Oh, wow. You can't eat

beans. How weird.

>> Well, I think I think there that's the

category and then there are certain

members of that category that are high

in certain members of that.

>> Yeah. It has here baked beans,

chickpeas, kidney beans, lentils,

soybeans,

>> and and what I really noticed there was

one day I had we got a a watermelon and

I ate like half of it. My wife's like,

"Chill out, man."

>> And I like within a couple hours I was

really really gassy and bloated and I

was like watermelon. Yeah. And I was

like, that has to be the watermelon

doing it cuz I haven't had anything else

out of the out of the ordinary. And and

so I started looking at at that. And so

I'm sensitive to that kind of stuff. But

that's just my own biological makeup.

Some people are genetically gifted in

other ways.

>> Well, it also depends on what you've

done that day. Like if you go on a long

hike through the mountains and you're

exhausted, like high carbohydrates and

high sugar diet or or some a meal is

actually good for you. I there are times

when I'm definitely craving it and and

I'm like got to listen to my body.

>> I think there's a reason. Yeah. Yeah.

Especially when you're worn out like

hiking in particular. Like you know you

think about if you you're at altitude

and you do like a three or four mile

hike and you're climbing that's and at

the end of it you're spent. You

have no sugar in your body. You're

you're you have a real issue and your

body needs something to replenish your

muscles.

>> Yeah. I got I got plenty of fat stores

so that when I go out for my run I can

uh I can last a little longer. But I I

run at at altitude in uh by Salt Lake.

So um

>> so whenever I come whenever I travel

elsewhere like I go to San Diego a

couple times a year or I'm on the East

Coast or or here. What the altitude here

is not very high.

>> No. I don't even think it's 1,000 ft.

>> And it's I can run 10 times as far. It's

so nice. I I enjoy running a lot more

cuz the the lack of oxygen. It doesn't

take it out of me nearly as quickly. We

have a hypoxia chamber in the studio.

So, yeah, we have a gym that's connected

to the studio. And in the gym is this

thing called a hypoxy. It's called u

>> forgot the name of it.

>> Exalt. Exalt XP is the company. I forget

the name of this, but this thing brings

you to you could vary the altitude. And

I put it at 14,000 ft. Oh, wow.

>> So, I do these cardio workouts at 14,000

ft. They're very specific depending upon

what you're trying to do. Like there's a

VO I killed myself yesterday cuz I do

this V2 max one where you're doing 4

minutes of hard cardio at 14,000 ft

above sea level and then you have like a

twominut recovery period and then you

get back on it again. You do it again

and you do a cycle of four of those and

it's hell.

>> Yeah, that's that's pretty intense. I do

I do the hit highend uh intensity

interval training from time to time, but

I don't have the discipline to

>> to do it at 14,000.

>> It's not fun, but it has it has a giant

impact though. So, if you do go

somewhere like if I had go to Utah and

I'm in the mountains, it's a giant

benefit.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I hope because I I know I've seen

people they'll they'll wear the masks

that are supposed to

>> kind of reduce the the oxygen. So, it's

it's a similar training. It's probably

not as effective.

>> Yeah. The mass thing is controversial. I

don't know about that. Yeah, there's

there's some devices that you can use

that actually strengthen the diaphragm

muscles

>> and you breathe through them and you do

breathing exercises,

>> but those restrictive masks, I don't

know about those.

>> I would imagine they would do the same.

They would have the same similar

function. It reduces the amount of

oxygen you get,

>> but they were a thing, the training

mask, it was a thing with among MMA

fighters for a while and they've all

abandoned it.

>> Okay.

>> At least most of them that I know. M

>> I don't know.

>> Maybe they got tired of it. Maybe it's

too hard already.

>> Yeah.

>> Um what was that thing that you brought

in? That big piece of pottery.

>> Yeah. So I I I brought in a couple of

things. Uh

>> show and tell.

>> Well, I bust it out.

>> So this is a gift for for you. And this

is

>> Thank you.

>> This is a a replica of my favorite

artifact from the ancient world. Friend

of mine uh named Robert Algot uh runs

this website called relics3d.com. And he

makes these. And this is this is what's

called the Contiladroo.

Uh

>> can I take a guess as to where it came

from?

>> Uh yeah, go ahead.

>> Turkey.

>> No.

>> No. Damn.

>> Came came from Contilad, oddly enough,

which is a um it's down near the Sinai

Peninsula.

>> Oh, okay.

>> And so, uh this was a part of a a large

jar called a pithos. And this is just

one fragment of it. Uh well, it's a

bunch of fragments that were that were

brought together that were discovered

that dates to about 800 B.CE.

And it's one of my favorite artifacts

because we have an inscription over top

and then a drawing of a male and a

female deity. And the inscription talks

about uh somebody asking for or thanking

somebody for blessings uh by Adonai of

Shamron or Jehovah of Samaria, the Lord

of Samaria and his Asher. And so, um, I

think the majority of scholars agree

this is probably intended to reflect the

interpretation of these two deities as

the God of Israel and God's wife, Asher.

And

>> very weird looking.

>> Yeah. Well, they're they're kind of they

kind of look almost boine. Uh and this

is probably because they're appealing to

some iconographic motifs associated with

uh deities Bess and Besset which are

Egyptian deities that that

>> that appear as bovine to you.

>> Uh the just the the face a little bit

like the the body's more

anthropomorphic.

>> Can you put a a image of that on the

screen, Jamie? So we could maybe perhaps

>> I can spell it for you. Uh, k u n t.

>> Damn it. Hold on. That's k. Pause. Go

ahead.

>> I l L E T.

>> I L L E T.

>> And then the next word.

>> I think I got it now. A R A J R U D.

>> Mhm.

>> And then like relic

>> uh inscription. Yeah, there there

actually a bunch of incriptions.

>> Okay, now I see I see the boine now. I'm

looking at it.

>> And there's the actual

>> Yeah.

>> Um

>> Yeah. So this is um

>> Now I see it. It's hard to look at that

thing. It looked almost like the um Go

back to the other image.

>> Yeah. Get make that. Yeah. I thought the

lines I thought the head was where the

mouth or the nose is.

>> I thought that's what the eyes and the

other thing was like a crown he was

wearing.

>> Yeah. Well, you've got you've got the

the headdresses on top that are that are

supposed to indicate they're deities.

>> How weird. Yeah, it's so all the

old ancient depictions of deities,

you're like, what were they doing? This

is this to me is the most fascinating

thing about pretty much all religious

texts is like what was the original

thing that they were trying to document

whether it was through oral tradition

then eventually written down like what

was the original event that fascinates

me the most about the Bible? that

fascinates me the most about the ancient

Samrian writings. I'm just I I I don't

think all of it is fiction, but I don't

think all of it is literal. I think

you're also dealing with an enormous

amount of time between these events and

then the writing down.

>> And then you've highlighted this very

much in some of your videos. There's a

lot of weirdness when you compare some

of these stories like the story of Moses

and Sargon of Akad. They they seem

incredibly similar. Yeah. Like almost

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>> Yeah, I think I think there's d

definitely some kind of genetic

relationship between the two. And

specifically, it's the story of him as a

baby being placed into uh a container

and set a drift in in a river. That is

Sargon the Great, who dates to long

before uh a historical Moses. But that

tradition, I think the earliest version

of it we've found in the Aadian

literature, dates to maybe 9th or 8th

century B.C.E., which is around the time

that people think that's or the scholars

think that's uh the tradition of Moses

and the narrative of the Exodus was

beginning to come together. So it makes

sense that that they would uh draw from

that tradition and I think there are a

couple of different reasons for it. One

of the reasons is uh to because that

already has some some purchase uh in the

the zeitgeist and so if you kind of

reflect something that people already

are aware of it kind of makes it a

little easier to to incorporate into

their worldview. Uh and then also it can

also be kind of a a challenge to the

other tradition. It's like, well, you

got your guy, we got ours. Our guy did

our guy did it better.

>> And so, and and this is a lot of what's

going on with the representation of

Jesus in the New Testament because there

there are certain turns of phrase. There

are certain things that Jesus does in

the New Testament that reflect what the

Greco Roman world expected from their

emperors and their god men. And so, in

the New Testament, it's kind of a way to

to do both of those things to say, "We

got one of those two, only ours did it

better."

>> Oh, interesting. So I I think one of the

key things to keep in mind is every

text, whether it's a text that's

inscribed on on a piece of pottery or

something that wound up in the Bible,

every author wrote it down because they

wanted to achieve something.

>> We tend to think of language as just

about communicating information. But

nothing happens in a vacuum. It's all

happening in circumstances in context

where they're trying to achieve

something. And so scholars go to great

lengths to try to figure out well what

precisely would have been achieved by by

writing this down or by writing any of

the the text in the Hebrew Bible or in

the New Testament. And the best way to

figure that out is to try to situate the

composition within, you know, whatever

historical period makes the most sense,

whatever we can make the best case for

and figure out how it would have worked

in that period. Which is why there are

some texts that that we think were

intended as uh propaganda. There are

texts that we think were intended to

kind of place one person struggling for

power over another person struggling for

power. There's a lot of political uh

propaganda going on. And then there are

other texts that are intended to try to

make people feel better about why things

aren't going well for them, why bad

things are happening to good people and

good things aren't happening to bad

people. So I there are tons of different

reasons that people are writing texts,

but um a good illustration of this is um

genre. So all texts have a genre of some

kind. And that's basically just a

conventionalized set of things that are

in the text that help cue people to what

kind of text they're looking at. So if I

start a story once upon a time, you

already know it's going to be a specific

type of text. So without even knowing

that you're aware of genre, you're aware

of the genre of a text. And if you found

a piece of paper in a parking lot and it

said dozen eggs, pound of ground beef,

uh you know, prophylaxis,

uh stuff like that, prophylactics

actually would be the the plural. You

know, you found a a grocery list, a

shopping list. And so that's a genre of

text as well. So just by being aware of

these conventions, we can say, "Oh,

well, I know exactly what this text was

trying to do because it has all these

markers of a given genre." And that's a

big cue to helping us figure out what

texts are trying to do. And when people

wrote on on pottery, generally this was

a little more ritual. This was something

that was intended to be like a votive

offering which might be uh an offering

to a deity so that the deity will then

bless you or it might be something that

people are intended to come in and read

out loud so that they invoke the

presence of the deity in the the space

and then the the drawing the deity would

also be a way of doing that. So there a

lot of different reasons for what's

going on and that's the big mystery is

is what were they trying to accomplish

and

>> and cattle worship was very common. Um

>> it was chakal hayuk. It was there was

like the Hindus. There's a lot of cattle

worship. There's a lot of

>> there are a lot of there's worship of a

lot of different animals or or the

sacralization of a lot of different

animals in a lot of different places and

and this is probably drawing from uh

Egyptian iconography. So yeah, this this

is the Sinai Peninsula is right in

between

>> um Syria, Palestine and Egypt. And there

was an awful lot of Egyptian influence

on things. So even even if you look at

uh for instance Hezekiah there's a

there's a a bulla that was discovered

which is a uh something that was left

from a uh an impression a signate ring

or something like that that has the name

Hezekiah on it. And there's an Egyptian

uh drawing of a winged I think it's a

winged scarab or something like that

which is directly from Egypt because

Israel was under Egyptian hegemony for

for a long long time. So

>> it's right next door.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So,

>> um, you were talking about Jesus and the

New Testament and that some of it seems

to have been like the the way it was

done to uh appease the people that lived

in the same era.

>> Uh, yeah, some of it was was a way to, I

think, make people feel better about

themselves. For instance, so the the

texts were written long after Jesus was

was dead. Uh the gospels, Mark was

probably written 697071ish

CE. Matthew's probably 5 10 years after

that. Luke's probably 5 10 years or more

after that. John's a little after that.

And at this time period, there's already

a following that is developing. And so

the people who are writing these texts

are are writing them for a literary

audience, but they also want them to

speak to the experiences of the people

who are followers of Jesus. So for

instance uh there's a part where where

Jesus says you know um I did not come to

bring peace but a sword and you know I

will set father against son and and

mother against daughter and and all this

kind of stuff and people have wondered

well what on earth is going on here and

there are scholars who suggest that the

point of that would have been to make it

sound like to people who are struggling

with uh inner family relationships you

know I'm a follower of Jesus now and I

got kicked out of my house or I'm a

follower of Jesus now and and I

constantly fight with my wife or with my

brother or something like that. Am I

doing something wrong? And this text has

Jesus saying, "No, no, I came to cause

that." So that's that means things are

working. And that that's a way to make

people feel okay. Well, then then I'm

okay because I got kicked out of, you

know, my parents house or or something

like that.

>> But isn't that crazy? Someone putting

words into Jesus's mouth just so that

people of the time feel okay.

>> I I think that's probably an awful lot

of what's going on. It's either to make

them feel okay or to try to push them to

um agree with living a certain way or

something like that or try to make them

feel like this is what's coming up for

us.

>> Which is a problem with taking

everything literally and like people

deciding that all of it is the word of

God when some of it is just like okay

would God really tell you to do that?

Like why why why is God telling you to

rape? Why why is God telling you to ch

kill women and children?

>> Yeah. Yeah. that that's something that

uh

>> commanding you to.

>> Yeah. And and people have been

struggling with that for the entire

history of the circulation of those

texts. And and I think there are

>> Yeah. You the word of God thing is is

interesting because the the that phrase

is never used anywhere in the Bible to

refer to texts specifically as the texts

that are in circulation. So word of God

is always a reference to just the

message, however it's circulating,

whether it's oral or or whatever, right?

or to Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus

is the word, but it's never used to

refer to a specific textual

manifestation of the message. And so

there's uh there's not really a case to

make that any author of any text in the

Bible use that phrase to refer to the

scriptures or the Bible. And so even in

uh in first Corinthians and a couple of

places in Paul, he says, "This is not

coming from the Lord. This is just

coming from me." And then we take it and

say, "Okay, I know." Wink wink. We know

what you mean.

>> Paul's a weird one.

>> Paul's the more I get into Paul, the

more the more I'm like, "This guy first

of all killed a bunch of Christians,

right? Lit churches on fire. At least

ordered the death of Christians."

>> Yeah. Then became one.

>> Yeah.

>> And then says he met Jesus in a vision.

Mhm.

>> And then all the stuff written down. He

also says that a lot of it is coming

from him, but we attribute it to Jesus.

It's it's all it gets super squirly when

you start reading Paul. You're like, who

the what?

>> Well, here here's

>> he never even met him.

>> Heck, 20 years later, he's writing all

this.

>> And there are a couple of different

stories about how exactly he did meet

him. And then but and an interesting

>> what are the different ones? There's the

road to Damascus. Well, yeah, it it's

the it's the vision, but it's told uh in

a couple of different ways. You got a

couple of tellings uh of the story in

Acts and then in the Pauline literature,

and it really has to do with uh who

heard a voice or or saw something or or

anything like that. There there are

minor differences, but but there are

still some differences, but uh I think

it's really interesting. A lot of people

treat all the Pauline texts as as

equally one inspired and two from Paul.

But scholars are in pretty widespread

agreement that there are several of

those texts that weren't written by

Paul. They were written decades after he

was dead.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. So, first and second Timothy and

Titus are called the pastoral epistles

and they are widely agreed to have been

written toward the end of the first

century or beginning of the second

century, maybe 30 years after Paul was

dead or more.

>> Oh, how complicated.

>> And then

And then you've got uh Colossians, 2

Thessalonians,

and Ephesians are a little more debated,

but it's there is a good solid core of

scholars who would argue that they were

not written by Paul. And and one of the

things one of the interesting things

that happens when you divide up the

letters between the genuine Pauline

epistles and then what are called the

disputed and then the spurious Pauline

epistles is Paul's message in the

genuine Pauline epistles is different

from the message in the in the others.

And for instance in the genuine Pauline

epistles Paul was like uh you know Jesus

is coming back any day now. So don't

change your situation in life. uh don't

get married if you're not married. If

you're married, don't get divorced. Uh

and he he suggests that everybody should

be celibate. And unless you just can't

hack celibacy, in which case,

>> wait a minute, even while married,

because you're waiting for Jesus to

return be so

>> because and in this time period, the I

think Paul fancied himself a

philosopher, but he's kind of cobbling

together a bunch of different

philosophical um movements.

>> Where have we heard that before?

>> Where have we heard that before?

Somebody fancied themselves a

philosopher.

>> Well, cobbling together things from

different

guru of today.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And um but at the time

sexual desire was thought of as as

something that was part of the baser

urges of the flesh. And if you could

overcome that then you obviously were a

real one. You

>> which is why Roman statues had little

penises.

>> I'm sure that's the main reason.

>> Yeah. That's supposedly what it was.

>> Really? That's

>> Yeah. I had I had a wonderful uh guide

when I did a tour of uh the Vatican.

This guy who was a uh university

professor who um he moonlights, you

know, makes extra money in the

summertime as a guide and he took us on

this tour and this guy was fant and he

loved that I was so into it. So, we had

this great conversation and uh

eventually I had to get to little dicks

like what I'm like why are these guys

they have these incredible bodies but

they have these tiny penises and

explained that it was like it was it was

go like you didn't want to have a big

giant dick. A big giant dick was like a

symbol of like a brutish barbarian type

person.

>> Mhm.

>> That it was better to depict these gods

with tiny penises and then eventually

they started covering them with leaves.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and the early

Greek and and Roman gods, you know, they

kind of went to town with uh with the

sexual stuff.

>> Well, it seems like they were getting

their freak on quite a bit, those

people.

>> And in a lot of different ways and with

a lot of different species, but uh

>> but anyway, Paul was uh he suggests that

yeah, even married folks should um just

avoid it. And and we see this in Matthew

as well. There's a part in Matthew in in

19 when uh he's talking about divorce

>> and then the his followers are like it

would be better for somebody not to get

married and and then he goes hey man

there are those who are born unix there

are those who are made Unix by men and

then there are those who make themselves

Unix for the kingdom of heaven and he

says that's a difficult saying but for

those who can accept it they should

accept it basically saying you know the

the higher law is to be celibate

>> because they they thought Jesus was

coming back so soon that having a kid

would be a waste of time. And so there

was no other reason for intercourse

really. And so the idea was, okay, be

celibate. And Paul says, you know, if

you can't hack it, then go ahead and and

have occasional sex with your spouse,

but it should be basically for keeping

down the urges. Uh because if trying to

remain celibate is just driving you

nuts, the risk that you might engage in

some kind of sexual immorality is so

great that you need to have that that

little um uh you need to have that

little valve to to keep down the urge.

>> Imagine if you're on your on death's

door and you listen to him and you

decide to stay celibate and you're like

Jesus didn't even come back.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Look at all that sex I missed.

>> Well, and you kind of see Yeah. That's

that was would certainly be on the list

of regrets. This is the problem with not

just, you know, biblical but

contemporary people that claim to know

what's happening. That this is what

we're all lost in this weird world that

we're living in where there's so much

uncertainty and there's so many

different versions of truth in terms of

like the origin of mankind in the

universe. And we want someone to come

along and say, "I know. I know." And

it's so compelling when someone does

when they say it with authority and when

they say it with confidence it's like ah

finally a guy who knows and this is how

all cults get started. This is how

everything you know I mean this is how a

lot of uh political leaders wind up

taking control. Yeah.

>> It's like someone who pretends to know

and and has this like deep understanding

of that's far beyond anything you're

ever going to have. Trust me, you got to

stay celibate. Jesus is on the way.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and that didn't really

work out.

>> It never works out. They're never right.

Which is which is so crazy that people

keep listening to them.

>> And and this is one of the things that

scholars see when they separate out the

genuine Pauline epistles from the later

ones because in the later ones, you have

Paul saying stuff like, "Oh, there's

going to be a delay

cuz

>> Jesus is stuck in traffic."

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and and this because

it's it's written by folks who are, you

know, they're decades down the road now.

It's like if we don't have kids, our

movement is dying out, right?

>> So, we kind of got to have kids. And so,

you've got one of these spurious Pauline

epistles that say, uh, women will be

saved in childbearing.

>> So, now it's like your salvation is

dependent on you having kids even though

the the real Paul was like, "Put it

away. Now, we're uh we're living

celibate lives now." And uh and and so

you have and this pops up in Matthew as

well where and elsewhere where we've got

this what they call delay of the perusia

or the second coming. We expected it any

day now. Turns out it might be a little

longer. Traffic's bad. Uh and you know

you have this man of of sin that's

supposed to show up or there's supposed

to be this falling away or there's

supposed to be something that gets in

the way and that causes a delay in

Jesus's return and 2,000 years down the

road. We're still wondering when that

delay is going to

>> So, we get to the oldest stuff. We get

to like like the Old Testament, like if

we get to Genesis,

>> what are the what are the oldest

versions of that story? Is it the

Anumeish?

>> So, uh there are a bunch of different

versions of Anumeish, but we probably go

back to Samrian stuff. Uh because you

actually have a we have these king lists

from long long ago in uh written in

Sumerian. There's no flood story yet in

these uh king lists, but they talk about

these kings that reigned for 10,000

years at a time.

>> What's your take on all that?

>> My take on all that?

>> Uh these are these are traditions. You

see a lot of different traditions that

develop uh in the ancient world to

account for uh how creation happened. Uh

the the weirdest one has got to be

there's an Egyptian one where the the

head god masturbated all of ex

existence. Um so that's that's a great

one for some bedtime reading. It's

pretty short. Um but there's uh there

there are just these texts are are

intended to serve purposes for these

these authors long long ago. And this is

when writing is just starting to come to

be, right?

>> Uh and so it hadn't been around for a

very long time. You don't have a lot of

mythical narratives and things like

that, but you have these poems that tell

stories and that talk about the reign of

of kings and that's political.

>> But the king's list, the weird thing

about the king's list is the older ones

are the ones that live forever. They

live in enormous lifespans. And then

when it gets to not, you know, closer to

contemporary times,

>> they're they're yeah, they're the rules

become less and less until they're

they're more human. And the same thing

is in Genesis. And it happens in the in

the later versions of the story, they go

from 10,000 years to just a few thousand

years. So, but in in one of the

secondary versions of the king list,

suddenly there's a flood that happens

and

>> secondary version.

>> Yeah. So, it's something that's added to

the king list. It's not in our oldest

king list.

>> Do we know when that was added?

>> Roughly, we probably have a rough

estimate of the date. I don't remember

off the top of my head. It's probably

somewhere in the early third millennium

BCE.

So maybe somewhere uh mid 2000s BCE. I

don't remember.

>> So it's probably contemporary to the

oral traditions of Genesis.

>> So I think the the oral traditions of

Genesis actually are much later than

that.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Cuz because Genesis was probably

written between around the the 8th

century B.C.E. down to the like the

fifth century B.C.E. And a lot of it is

riffing on the literature that's uh

circulating within Babylon during the

exile or it's literature that's

circulating within Assyria when Assyria

is um is beaten up on Israel. And so for

instance uh the Tower of Babel that's

famous story from from Genesis. There's

a tower called the the tower of Etmani

that is just outside of Babylon that was

famous because it was uh built by I want

to say I want to say old Babylonian.

Don't quote me on that though. But uh it

was later destroyed when the Assyrians

came in to take over. They they kind of

uh decommissioned it and destroyed it

partly. And then for like 80 years,

another Assyrian emperor had a uh

restoration project was trying to

rebuild the tower, but it took forever.

It took like 80 years. And that was

right in the 8th century. And so there

are a lot of scholars who suggest that

the story of this tower that was

supposed to be built to heaven that was

left unfinished is a reflection of the

unfinished tower of Etmani. And so that

would put it in the in the right date.

And there there's also this problem when

we look at historical narratives in the

in the Hebrew Bible. They're written in

ancient Hebrew uh and a a somewhat

developed form of ancient Hebrew. And we

can chart the developments of the

Semitic languages fairly well. And

there's no historical narrative pros in

any alphabetic script, any language that

was written in an alphabetic script

until the middle of the 9th century

B.C.E.

And that first happens in like Moabites

and Aramaic and some other languages

like that. And so most likely our

ancient narrative pros in biblical

Hebrew was written around that time or

shortly after. And the stuff that's

older than that is written in poetry.

And so the oldest parts of the Hebrew

Bible are are not the creation account

in Genesis. There are some poems that we

find in uh like Judges 5. So this is a

fascinating story about um Deborah the

the general who goes and defeats Cisora

uh and we have stories in Exodus 15, the

song of the sea. Some scholars think

that's a very very old poem uh which is

basically a shortened version of the

Exodus story. And then Genesis 49 have

some blessings that Jacob gives to his

children that might be really really

old. And Psalm 68 there there a handful

of poems that may go back to around a

th000 BC. So when Genesis is talking

about the things that we think are

related to Anuma Elish, the closest

connections are actually two versions of

that story that were in circulation in

Babylon around 600 B.CE. So uh that's

probably where Genesis is getting that

from. Not directly from Samrian tablets,

not directly from oral traditions that

are uh a thousand years older. uh the

the scholars who are looking at that I

think have have made a good case that

the closest connections are 8th to 6th

century BCE. That's probably where the

traditions that were recorded in Genesis

were were mainly borrowed or or mainly

adopted and adapted to serve the

interests of the Judeans who are around

in that time period.

>> So what is the oldest creation story

that we're aware of?

I think it's probably got to be an

Egyptian one or it's either Sumerian or

Egyptian. That's that's the two places

where writing uh were

in where writing was invented. Uh and I

would have to go back and look. There's

there's a wonderful set of texts called

the contexts of scripture, a three

volume set published by uh this uh very

expensive publisher called Brill that

they have translations of all of the

texts that we have from ancient Egypt,

from ancient Anatolia, from ancient uh

Assyria, Babylon, from uh the cultures

of ancient Canaan that are not in the

Bible. And so there they have one of the

volumes, the first third of it is

creation accounts. And so it may be the

masturbation one. I can't I can't say

for sure. I don't remember off the top

of my head. Um but you know

>> that's not the OG.

>> Ah it could be. It could be.

>> Well the Egyptian language by itself is

very bizarre. It kind of emerges out of

nowhere like hieroglyphs emerge sort of

fully formed. uh you could there's a

there's a development in the uh the way

hieroglyphs are used but we we first

start seeing inscriptions popping up

like monumental inscriptions like most

of the the early writing probably took

place on materials that deteriorated

right quickly. And so what what we have

is the stuff that was written in stone

which is where like the language has got

to be a little more developed for us to

to start you know taking all day to

inscribe something in stone. So, I think

there's um I I don't think there's a

good case to make that uh it just popped

out of nowhere. Like the the ancient

alien stuff is uh is fun, but uh we

don't have a lot of of evidence that

gets us uh to that being really even a

plausible solution to to the problem.

There there is definitely a mystery

about uh about why in similar time

periods people in different parts of the

world came up with very similar ideas

all at the same time. That might have

something to do with uh the evolution of

the brain or something like that.

>> It's also we're probably underestimating

the amount of travel people were capable

of doing back then.

>> Yeah, I think so. I think so. But the

writing t seems to develop from um

receipts or from counting. you counted

up stuff uh and this is your receipt for

how many goats you bought or whatever.

And and so as as your needs develop in,

you know, your economy is growing, I

think you begin to develop labels for

things, you begin to develop characters

for things and then it it goes from

there. There there are a bunch of really

good uh academic discussions about the

origins of of language and the origins

of uh the alphabet and and even the um

the stuff that we see ancient Hebrew is

is ultimately derives from Egyptian

yeah in the Sinai uh that is where you

have we have some inscriptions from

around

1700 to 1900 BCE where they're they look

like Egyptian hieroglyphs but they're

not doing what Egyptian hieroglyphs do

because they are either salabic or

idographic or logoraphic where one sign

represents a syllable. So a consonant

and a vowel or one sign represents a

word or one sign represents an idea and

they they change them so that each sign

represents just a single sound and the

sound is whatever sound is at the start

of the word that the symbol represents.

So for instance uh the word for house uh

bait and that starts with a B and so if

you drew a house that meant the B sound

and this and this is the development of

the alphabets because

>> to learn ancient Egyptian you had to

memorize hundreds and hundreds of of

signs and to learn Sumerian or u Aadian

or something like that hundreds of

signs. But an alphabet is 22 to 30

letters. So it's a lot easier to

memorize. uh and then that becomes that

gets taken to Phoenicia and from

Phoenicia it gets spread all over the

place. And so apart from Hangul which is

the Korean uh script I think virtually

every other alphabet on earth is

descended from the Phoenician.

>> Well the Korean script is fairly recent,

right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Fairly recent. And and they

take a few different symbols and they

group them together to to create

syllables. Uh, but each each symbol on

its own represents a sound very similar

to uh to the way uh our alphabet works.

>> I don't know much about Korean, but I've

heard it described as the most complete

language. Like it's the most

structurally logic logical language.

>> There there are ways that I think it is.

There are other ways that a language

like Russian might be more uh systematic

or even ways like ancient Latin uh might

be more systematic. But

>> so when you started

learning religion, when you started

studying religion, did you start

studying languages

concurrently? How how did you do it?

>> Uh I I was so I joined the LDS church

when I was 20 years old. And a year

later, I went to serve a two-year

proitizing mission in Uruguay. And I

fell in love with studying the Bible

when I was doing that. I I love the

stories. I've loved learning about the

the history, the culture, and I wanted

to better understand the languages so I

could I could try to engage the texts uh

as they were originally written. So, I

tried to start teaching myself Hebrew

when I was down there. I didn't have a

ton of time and I wasn't very good at

it. But when I

>> It's a task.

>> Yeah, it's a tall order. And uh when I

came home, I found out that you could

get a degree in biblical studies and be

a Bible scholar. And I was like, that

would be about the coolest career in the

world for me. And so I I went to school

to do that. I wanted to wanted to learn

ancient Hebrew. I wanted to learn

ancient Greek. I wanted to learn about

the literature. I wanted to learn about

the history. I wanted to learn about the

archaeology. And so I started off

>> not really having a narrow focus, but

just I want to try and get as much of it

in as I could. And over the course of

getting these degrees,

>> uh, you know, you kind of have to narrow

your focus on on stuff. And so as I

progressed, I decided I I wanted to

learn what was not only what was going

on with the languages, but I wanted to

focus on how people thought about God

and gods. And so my PhD is actually uh

is using biblical studies and then

something called the cognitive science

of religion uh to I put those two

together to try to figure out what we

can know about how the authors of the

Hebrew Bible would have thought about

and interacted with gods as they

understood them.

>> And that that's using a lot of

experimental research uh on living

informants. So interviews and and

experiments and things like that to

figure out how the brain works and and

how we come up with ideas about deities,

idea about rituals, ideas about uh

religious identity and stuff like that.

So I find that fascinating. So I would

say my main uh focus is now on

conceptualizations of deity of scripture

and religious identity and cognitive

science of religion is is one of the

main tools that I use. But but yeah, it

all started with having to to learn the

languages. Well, it's such an enormous

field of study.

>> Yeah,

>> there is so much to learn, especially

when you're talking about these

different translations and different

languages, which is

>> which is what I've always felt like is

the weirdest part about all this is it's

very difficult to translate languages to

something that makes sense in whatever

language you're currently using. Like

there there's certain concepts that we

use that if you tried to use them, you

know, in

if you try to like I'm sure you've seen

Russian translated to English and you're

like, what are they even what are they

saying? It's it gets weird. Yeah. Cuz

it's not

>> it's it languages aren't it's not

direct. It's not like, oh, this is their

word for cow. This is their word for

drive. This is their word for truck. Oh,

the cow drove a truck.

>> It's not that simple. Mh.

>> It's it's depend like the way they talk

about things is very different. The way

to describe time is very different.

>> Yeah. Yeah. and and that when you get

into more minority languages, languages

that are spoken and and um you know tiny

little islands like Yap or Kitty Boss or

something like that, um it it can get

very very alien to someone who has only

spoken English their entire life cuz

learning Spanish like there are you know

there are ways it's difficult uh

learning any language is difficult and

there but there are a lot of ways that

is very very close to English including

even some of the words sound very very

similar but There are other languages

that you learn that are just uh yeah you

have to restructure how you are thinking

about things and how you communicate

things and it's not just like in German

oh you got to put all the verbs at the

end uh there there are very very

different ways to to go about

>> so how complicated is that when you're

reading an English translation of the

Bible like that's when things must get

very strange if you're especially Old

Testament right you're

>> yeah were even crazier Dead Sea Scrolls,

right? So, you're going Aramaic to

English. Yeah, it's a lot of people

think that it's a simple matter

translating from from ancient Hebrew,

ancient Greek into English and they

imagine that because they have an

English translation

uh they you know have all the insights

they need and and this is why a lot of

people will go out and they'll get an

interlinear or they'll go on a website

that provides you know the Hebrew to

English or something like that and

imagine that they now understand when

the reality is that there is a lot more

under the hood. good of that

relationship between the Hebrew and the

English translation that they don't have

any idea about. And so there's a there's

a saying that somebody uh who you know

goes online and uses an interlinear or

something like that, they do they know

just enough Greek to be dangerous.

meaning they really what they imagine

that they know a lot more than they do

and when they go out and try to to use

that knowledge to try to, you know, go

make videos on social media or something

like that, they end up stepping in it

because they really don't know what

they're talking about or the the main

reason I'm on social media, the main

thing I'm trying to combat, they will

spread misinformation, right?

>> Falsehoods that other people are going

to eat up because they might have a

platform with millions of followers.

>> That sounds like me.

I won't say too much about the

misinformation. Um, but uh, yeah. No,

there there's a lot of it out there. I

try not to be someone who does that

because I can't be a

>> No, you're really good at it. You're

very good at at breaking down where

things go wrong with translations as

well.

>> Well, I appreciate that. I And I can't

be a specialist in all things, which is

why I rely on the consensus of the

academic world.

>> Do you speak ancient Hebrew? Do you

>> Nobody Nobody Nobody speaks ancient

Hebrew. Uh, it's it's not a spoken

language. Obviously, modern Hebrew is is

spoken. Um, but it's not a language that

anyone would ever grow up learning by

speaking with their mother.

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more. Rated M for mature. Is there a way

to learn how to speak?

>> Um, yeah. Open to interpretation.

>> Yeah, you you have to reconstruct some

stuff and so there there are absolutely

like speakers of modern Hebrew uh can

look at a text and read it perfectly

fluently. They to understand it, they

have to have a knowledge of the

difference between modern Hebrew and

ancient Hebrew. Uh

>> but they're saying it the correct way

>> mostly. There are some differences in

the way they pronounce things anciently

from the way they pronounce things um

today. But most scholars who are who are

looking at the uh biblical Hebrew,

ancient Hebrew are going to adopt a

modern pronunciation system. So there

there are absolutely scholars out there

who advocate for uh or have a

reconstructed way of pronouncing ancient

Hebrew. For the most part, if I go to a

conference and I read a text in Hebrew,

I'm going to use something approximating

a modern Hebrew pronunciation, and I'm

not awesome at it, but uh you know,

someone who speaks modern Hebrew should

understand what what I'm saying. Uh but

I I read it fairly well. It's been a

while since uh I've been I've got a

translation of the Hebrew Bible I'm I'm

working on. I'm uh I haven't been able

to touch it for uh almost two years now.

So, uh, my my Hebrew es and flows

depending on how frequently I'm in the

text working on translation and stuff

like that. But, but yeah, I've got I'm

better at Hebrew than I am at Greek. Uh,

but there but there are a handful of

languages we have to get some competency

in to to do this. Aramaic is one of

them. Another fun one is called

Yugaritic, which is um considered

somewhat of a precursor to Hebrew. It

was spoken a little further north on the

Syrian coast.

>> Oh, you've never heard of Yugaritic? No,

>> this is a fascinating story. 1929, a guy

is plowing a field in uh along the coast

of Syria and he hits a big rock that he

can't move and he digs it up and

basically discovers an entire ancient

city, calls out the archaeologists. They

all come descend on this uh this field

and they discover the ancient city of

Yugarit, which we knew from some texts

that referred to this city uh called

Yugarit. And they found uh around a

thousand or so texts, but nobody

recognized the language because it was

written in Kunio form, but there were

only 30 cunioform signs. So that means

it's got to be alphabetic and not the

the other way they use kunoiform signs.

>> And they decided, okay, the most common

Semitic consonant is mem, the equivalent

of our M. And they said, so let's take

the most common sign that we see and

let's designate that mem. And then let's

look at all the two-letter words. And

there are only a handful of words that

can be two letters and have the mem in

one position or another. And let's try

to decode from there this language. And

now we have uh we've decoded ugaritic.

And now we a lot of people who go and

learn biblical Hebrew and Aramaic will

also learnitic because some of these

mythical texts mention things that are

in the Bible. And so they talk about

deities like L and Bal and Asher. And so

Asher, the the one right there. So uh

and there there are some things that are

in there that help us better understand

biblical Hebrew. There are some things

that are in there that help us

understand some of the the cultic

rituals that would go on in relation to

L and Bal and and Ashra. And there's

even uh there's one text that's almost

directly quoted in the Bible. And and

the thing is Yugar was destroyed around

1,200 B.CE. So with the uh what's called

the late Bronze Age collapse. Um and

there's a um there's a wonderful book by

Eric Klene 1177 BC. Have you ever heard

that that book title? Phenomenal uh book

on how the late Bronze Age collapse

happened. But

>> so the the destruction of Yugara happens

before the invention of Hebrew. So

Hebrew didn't even exist in this time

period. And uh but this helps us recover

what the languages that were being

spoken in that region were like as

Hebrew began to develop. But there's a

there's a passage there's a reference to

u Bal is is fighting a deity named Moat.

And Moat means death. So this is the god

of death that's fighting Bal who is the

the storm god. And Mo is like I know

you're uh you won some battles in the

past. You're going to lose this one. Uh

but he says, "I know you uh you slew

Loton," which is the eucharitic version

of Leviathan, the wriggling serpent, the

twisting serpent, the dragon with seven

heads. And what's funny is in Isaiah

27:1, we have uh Isaiah talking about

Adonai, the God of Israel, and says, "On

that day," so now it's off in the

future, "On that day, you will strike

Leviathan, the wriggling serpent. revi

Leviathan, the uh twisting serpent, the

dragon that lives in the sea. And so the

and the words for wriggling and twisting

serpent are identical to the yugaritic

and loton and leviathan are are both the

same word just in two different

languages.

>> Wow.

>> And so this passage in Isaiah was

probably written somewhere before 700

B.CE. But that's coming 500 years after

the Yugoritic text uh that uh that says

almost the exact same thing.

>> Wow.

>> So it's not that Isaiah had access to

this text and was quoting it, but it was

probably kind of a poetic saying uh that

was just transmitted all around the area

and at some point Isaiah decided to to

write it down. And while the Ugaritic

one makes reference to seven heads,

Isaiah doesn't say anything about seven

heads. But we do have in Psalm 74 a

reference to Leviathan's multiple heads.

That God crushed the heads of Leviathan.

And the seven headed serpent dragon is

kind of a a pretty common motif in that

time period. Just recently in a Tel

Hatsur in uh a little north in Israel,

they discovered a little uh inscription

with a drawing that shows a warrior

fighting a seven-headed serpent dragon

beast. So the so the eucharitic

literature helps us an awful lot with

understanding what was going on before

the Bible happened but also helps us

better understand uh the Hebrew of the

Bible and also the relationship of these

gods to one another uh and yeah what the

the tradition that was inherited by the

Israelites and then how they engaged

with it as they passed it on down the

line historically.

>> Why so many references to dragons? So

they didn't have a word for lizard,

right? And they didn't have a word for

reptile like and dinosaurs. That was

that was very all that's very

contemporary, right? Just even the

description of it in that way. Yeah.

>> But the term dragon referred to all of

these scaly beasts, right?

>> Yeah. It was it was all a crocodile.

Yeah. It it was a sea monster. The the

thing is they were very conscious of

uh the everpresent threat of chaos and

particularly on the waters. So the land

was safe, the waters were dangerous,

right?

>> And the chaos of the waters became

>> um kind of personified as a deity who

could be represented as uh a dragon just

because that's where the the sea

monsters live. That's where the the

giant fish and the um the alligators and

stuff like that. Uh, and so you get

traditions that develop about the the

the monster that lives in the sea and

then our god tames that monster as a way

to show that our god has power over

chaos. Our god can bring order to chaos.

And you talked about creation stories

earlier. A lot of the original creation

stories were mainly about overcoming the

chaos to create order. Order is what

allows us to live in harmony. Order is

what allows civilization to develop.

Order is what we're going for. So God is

the one that brings that order. And so

that the battle between chaos and order

becomes a battle between a dragon and

our deity who is a warrior who is going

to protect us. How much of these stories

do you think the way they're compiled is

to give structure to civilization and to

establish rules in order for people to

live together harmoniously? like older,

wiser people realize like these these

folks have to have something to believe

in. And one one of the best ways to get

a hold of this is say someone's watching

all the time. So in the sky,

>> yeah, you you've touched on a couple of

different things because the something

someone's watching all the time is is

definitely a central feature of how

scholars think that religion dominated

the development of civilization because

uh and and there's a wonderful book by a

scholar named Aranoran called Big Gods

which is which is all about this but uh

the idea there is that uh gods develop

in in a variety of different ways. But

it's it's rooted in the fact that our

minds because evolution has conditioned

us to be very sensitive to the presence

of agents and agency in the world around

us. Uh anciently the the primate that

interpreted the rustling in the bushes

as something that might have teeth

rather than as just the wind survived

longer than the one who didn't. And so

our minds became very very sensitive to

the presence of agency in the world

around us. And so anyone who's ever

watched a horror movie and then has gone

up the bed the basement stairs and a

little quicker than normal or you know

you don't close your eyes at night

because you feel like there's something

there that is a product of this

evolutionarily installed sensitivity to

agency. And as this as this kind of

plays out through human sociality, we we

curate relationships with deceased

relatives.

uh we interpret certain events as the

work of some kind of entity that we

can't see whether an animal or something

more human like that. And one of the

things that interactions with these

entities then allows us to do is it

allows us to suggest there is an eye in

the sky. There is someone out there who

is uh the the phrase is covertly

monitoring us. And once you become in

charge of the relationship between the

people and the covert monitor, you then

have an awful lot of power to say,

"Well, it turns out we're all supposed

to do this and and the deity is watching

us and anybody who is not doing this is

going to be punished by the deity." And

that exerts a lot of influence over over

people. But it also allows societies to

grow and get larger and more complex

without descending into chaos because we

have kind of this social superructure

that allows us to to trust other people

that we may not know. This is one of the

weird things about human evolution is if

you're in a family, you know your

family. Your kin are important to you

and so you can cooperate with your kin.

But if you happen to run into somebody

that you don't know, you have no idea if

they're going to kill you or what. And

as societies grow beyond kinship units,

you need signs and signals to be able to

let other people know that you you're

okay. We're a part of the same social

group. We can trust each other. And so,

>> uh, these days, you know, it's things

like shaking somebody's hand might be a

way to do that. That's wearing a cross

is a is a way to it's called costly

signaling. It's a way to incur some kind

of cost in order to signal to others

that you are part of the inroup.

>> And but but the these rituals go far

beyond religious things. Just even

secularly there are a lot of things that

we expect in a normal interaction with a

stranger. You expect things. Good

morning. How are you doing? Shaking in

the hand. I'm looking you in the eye.

I'm doing all the things to let you know

that I can be trusted. And so that's

kind of an outcome of uh just being a

part of a human society. And gods, these

covert monitors are very effective

rule setters only. They're not there to

directly set the rules. Somebody has to

mediate between the deity and the

people. And that's where we get

religious experts and we get priests and

we get things like that. And so so you

know it would be the elders in very very

archaic human societies who would be the

ones to say this these are the stories

that we're going to tell that we're

going to share so that our kids grow up

uh adopting these expectations about uh

about how they live their life and who

the good guys are and who the bad guys

are. And that's one of the big problems

in this

>> is that empathy is is something that we

develop in in human evolution. But

empathy frequently only goes so far.

There's frequently a boundary to empathy

and that's called parochial empathy. I

I'm very empathetic for anyone in my

inroup. Their pain is my pain. I see

that pain, I feel that pain. And then

somebody who I perceive to be the other

frequently I'm not going to have any

empathy for. In fact, it may make me

feel good,

>> which is very convenient during war.

>> Exactly. Yeah. And that's that's one of

the one of the reasons that empathy, you

know, we hear a lot about toxic empathy

uh these days or at least I do. I do

because the algorithm hates me. But um

the the idea that uh we shouldn't extend

our empathy beyond a particular in-roup

boundary is the most toxic kind of

empathy, right?

>> Because that is the empathy that others

someone else and and says no, I I care

about my people and I dislike or or am

apathetic to someone who's not part of

the inroup. But it's so weird because

that extends to um well in this country

particularly extends to ideologies and

politics in into the point where left

versus right one is the enemy depending

on which side you're on and they need to

be eliminated.

>> Yeah. And the more you can dehumanize

them and other them and make it seem

like they are just so alien and so

corrupt,

>> the more you can do that, the easier it

is to justify. Yeah. Not just treating

them bad, not just voting for the other

guy, but but even imprisoning them

>> or celebrating their death. Charlie

>> Kirk.

>> Yeah, that that's that's a wonderful

example. Something just atrocious that

happened. Nobody deserves that kind of

treatment,

>> but

a little south of my town. I was

actually on the golf course and I got a

text from somebody that when that

happened and I I just I got a chill. Um

but yeah this is this is uh this is one

of the outcomes of of just being human

is that we tend to draw a line around

those who uh congregate around the

social intera or the social intera

identities that are most important to us

and that's what politics is frequently

trying to exploit. Yes.

>> And that's why the more we can paint

somebody on the other side of the aisle

as so other as to be evil

>> Yeah. and even not human, the easier it

is to justify torturing them, killing

them, uh a genocide, uh the the easier

that becomes. And so that's so I I think

of toxic empathy as parochial empathy

rather than the global empathy that I

think we should all be striving for,

which is which is a phenomenally

difficult thing to do and it's

phenomenally complex. But uh but yeah,

the more we can humanize people, I think

the more we can learn to get along. It's

what allowed human civilization to to

flourish. In fact, one I'll I'll share

one more detail about this. Have you

ever heard of Shannidar 1?

>> I think so.

>> So, it's it's an ancient um Neanderl

remains. It's it's a skull and and a few

other scattered bones.

And the the skull shows some deformities

that indicate that this was a person who

was profoundly deaf, probably mostly

blind as well, and had other

disabilities that would have made it so

they could not have survived very long.

But the skull aged to pretty old age for

a Neanderl,

which indicates that that was only

possible if they had a social support

group around them that did things for

them that they couldn't do for

themselves. And and it almost certainly

would have been kind of a social inroup.

So it's it's not a lesson about uh about

global empathy. But if we understand

humanity to be defined by, and I don't

like definitions, but to be defined by

the way we're most different from the

animals that are closest to us. I think

sacrificing our own efforts, time,

resources, things like that to care for

someone who can't care for themselves. I

think if that's about the closest I

think uh we can get to a necessary and

sufficient feature of what it means to

be human

>> and one of the most universally admired

qualities.

>> Yeah.

>> Amongst I think all cultures.

>> Yeah. And this is this is something that

we believe these ancient Neanderl

remains preserve in in uh in the

injuries and the disabilities that are

very clearly present in that uh in that

individual. So I So, you know, you could

say Chanded R1 is the oldest human uh be

if you wanted to because I I think it

shows that this was someone who grew up

in a society that was like, we're going

to we'll take care of you.

>> You you can't do these things for you.

We'll take that burden on ourselves.

>> Well, we have some very weird ideas of

what Neanderls were and how intelligent

they are. And their brains were larger

than ours, which which is really weird.

And they keep finding older um hominins

that have larger brains than us. The the

latest one is this

>> one from China, Homo, I think they're

calling Juluensis.

Um larger brain capacity by I think 20

plus percent.

>> Than ours and like okay what was their

society? Did they have empathy? Did they

have culture? Did they have language?

Did they have oral tradition? What did

they have? We don't know.

>> Yeah.

>> We only have bones. Yeah,

>> we have bones and we have this uh

prejudice distinct. We have this idea in

our head that anything old must have

been dumber than us

>> and we might not make it. Okay, we might

not make it, right? Human beings could

go extinct. Like we were just have this

conversation yesterday, my friend Sam

Morell. We were talking about the this