I'm either gonna make this or get taken

away on a stretch

it changed my life completely

how could you prepare for anything like

that

Tony Hawk began riding a skateboard when

he was nine years old and when he turned

16 he was the best skateboarder in the

whole wide world

moving the outcast and the outcast

activity I got picked on I got bullied

even when I turned Pro I would leave

high school for a big skate event I'm

signing autographs and then I would come

back and be a ghost in the hallways

again I just wanted to see skateboarding

get more popular but I got famous by

accident suddenly I was a chosen

Ambassador I was making income I owned a

house in my last year of high school so

I was doing talk shows and I was doing

big appearances my video game was a big

hit how much revenue a billion dollars

wow the trajectory just seemed like it

was never going to end and then it

dropped very quickly

I was so hyper fixated on my skating I

didn't really work on my Humanity I was

a machine and I'd go and do the event

and win the trophy go home it didn't

allow me to be myself very much did you

lose people yeah made them feel like

they weren't the priority and a lot of

it was just being afraid of intimacy and

I regret that I started getting burned

down in competition

the term burnout is used a lot these

days what did that experience teach you

about what causes burnout it taught me

that

before we get into this episode just

wanted to say thank you first and

foremost for being part of this

community the team here at the diver Co

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incredible people and just selfishly ask

them questions that I'm pondering over

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let's get on with it

[Music]

foreign

[Music]

not sure if you've ever listened to this

podcast before but I'm quite predictable

with how I start these conversations and

I'll I'll be transparent in terms of my

rationale

um when I read about a story like yours

and I read about how much of anomaly you

were in many respects of your life I

always ask the question why and how

where did that begin where did that

start and having

you know read right back into your your

parents history and your history I saw

signs of of that but

seeing as you're here

best place to ask you can you give me

the context that you believe was pivotal

in shaping you to become the person that

you are today

I think early on

I was I was obsessed when I first

started skating

I found something that spoke to me I

found a community of people that were we

were just a bunch of Misfits and

outcasts that sort of

fit together somehow and I loved what

skateboarding brought to me in terms of

my sense of identity my sense of

self-confidence and the creative aspects

around it

I just loved it and all I wanted to do

was

was it as much as possible

um and there was no

there was no end goal there were no

there was no fame or fortune in the

cards because no one had ever had that

from skating even the top skaters

so

what was it it was just an obsession and

um I wanted to do it as best I could

always

even even when I reached the top of the

ranks of competition I still want to get

better

when you say obsessed

um and the way you describe it almost

sounds like it was medicine yeah and in

a lot of ways it was I mean I I was

a smaller kid

um I got we used to call it picked on I

got I got picked on a lot bullied and

um I didn't Excel that much in team

sports I I just kind of was Middle

Ground

um if that and then when I found skating

every time I'd go skate I got better at

it

and it was incremental sometimes almost

immeasurable but I knew that I was

getting I was each time I was improving

and I couldn't say that about any of the

other sports I was doing I got I mean

baseball basketball like yeah sure

sometimes I'd score mostly I wouldn't

but I never felt like oh I'm really

I'm really getting to a different level

of this it was more like I did it

because it was expected of me and every

time I skated I got better every time I

would go to the park

I would learn some little new technique

that would lead me to something else

what was that progression doing for you

on a psychological level

it gave me a sense of purpose

it gave me an outlet for my energy and

my frustrations and it gave my my

parents some

um much needed reprieve from my from

uh my determination

that's my that's my my mom put it uh in

her best way is that

I I was I was difficult I was always

very

thick-headed I wanted to do my things my

way or I wanted to do on my terms and

she said when I found skateboarding I

really found a a directive for that and

um when her friends would say he's such

a nightmare she'd say he's just very

determined

Nancy that is right yep Frank announced

your parents what was what was your home

life like with them

um it was pretty

quiet I don't know I um my parents were

older when I was born so it kind of felt

like I was raised by grandparents

because my dad was 45 my mom was 43.

by the time I was at an age where I was

being very active and doing things they

were they were kind of in retirement

mode

um so and and they I can't say they were

I don't know they they weren't

they weren't close

it was almost like they were just

roommates and so that I I definitely

rubbed off on me in in a lot of ways but

but it just felt like oh this is just a

functional household that's not full of

love necessarily

I'm the youngest of four

um I sometimes wonder whether sometimes

the youngest child of the bunch because

you were the youngest of three right

um the parents almost

think that they've finished with

parenting oh for sure in my case my my

older siblings were all my my brother is

closest he's 13 years older than me

so absolutely they thought they were

done raising children I was I was not

planned and

and I think that my parents were kind of

reaching a winter of their of their

marriage

um even before that or just after I was

born so it was a little icy and I think

that because they were from that

generation they you know those

Generations you just stay together no

matter what and so they did and and

um

it's not like it was it was terrible

like I said just it just wasn't that

warm

I can also relate to not being

necessarily planned was there ever a

were you ever cognizant of that is it

like were you ever aware that has did

that ever have an effect on your psyche

that you weren't planned

at all no I never thought about that

I guess I never I I was never that

deep in my introspection to to worry or

concern myself with that fact I just

knew that I wanted to go skate you were

really um really intelligent kid I read

that your IQ was like 144 or something

yeah maybe at one time

which is which is surprising typically I

think of um a child that has that void

of Independence and how which it sounds

like you had of not necessarily being

the best academically or in terms of

smarts especially if they're distracted

or preoccupied with something like

sports like skateboarding one would

think that Academia intelligence might

fall by the wayside

um no I always relied on that I I was in

the um in the gifted classes uh growing

up and so I was with other kids that

that were of that same elk and

um so I always thought that that my path

would be more

Academia based I you know I I thought

that I would be

I actually thought it was gonna be a

math teacher because I excelled in math

and and I liked helping my friends with

it so I thought oh that that is the

maybe that's my

my trajectory and then when I found

skating it wasn't that my academics fell

by the wayside but it was more that oh

maybe I have something else here

and um it really wasn't until I was in

high school that I realized more of the

potential of that I feel like skating

these days is um still is really cool

now but having read back through your

story it seems like it wasn't as it was

not not at all in fact in my early high

school days I had to hide my I had to I

chose to hide my skateboard in the

bushes behind the school

um because I use it as transportation

and because I would get hassled carrying

it around school

um you know they would they would say

not so nice things as I would walk

stroll by with my skateboard even though

I was starting to find some sense of

success with it I I was actually at that

point uh sponsored I had a company that

was giving me boards that was sending me

to events and even when I turned Pro

which meant that I was had my own

skateboard model it was just not cool

so it was cool in certain sex like I

would I would leave High School I would

go to

for instance Houston for a big skate

event and there's all kinds of skaters

there I'm signing autographs taking

photos and then I would come back from

that weekend and maybe even have won

some some money to go to high school and

be a ghost in the hallways again

that's the kind of dichotomy I was

living

you talked about how the progress was

like a motivating a driving factor that

you know getting incrementally better

every time you did it outside of the

technical aspect of skateboarding what

was the um the value for you

outside of like doing the tricks and

stuff what what what was like filling

you up uh the the culture the community

of it I loved everything about it the I

love the attitude the DIY aspect the the

Renegade

um attitude that you would you have to

hop fences you know to go skate an empty

swimming pool or to a to go skate a a

schoolyard and

and it was just so there was so much

art and creativity involved it was like

any skater it's more most likely they're

gonna play also play music or they're

also going to be artists or or do other

interesting things and so

there was a soundtrack to it it was it

was embedded in in punk music because

that was the same sort of vibe and

attitude that we had and

um it was just more like oh this is this

is my scene this is this is I have the

sense of belonging here and I don't care

if I don't fit in with my classmates or

my peers

so you started you got your first

hand-me-down board at eight years old

uh yeah like nine or ten yeah from your

brother from my brother yeah

and by 12 your

your sponsored um by a sponsored yeah

which which basically meant that I got

free skateboards once in a while it was

right it wasn't some there was no

contractor it wasn't like a million okay

no and then at 14

um I turned Pro but all that really

meant was that

I moved up a category in competition

so there was there was sponsored amateur

and then there was professional and

to be professional just meant that you

were competing for a 100 first place

prize money well at what point did you

realize that you were good

comparatively

um

I think it was

it would have been later on in my pro

career when I started to figure out how

to do these what they called

they used to call them circus tricks but

I like to think they were more

avant-garde

and I would do these these sort of

unique moves that I created but I I

started to learn how to do them more in

the air like at an impressive height and

I think it was around

probably more rounds

16 age 16 when I started to realize like

oh I can do these things

at Heights that is reserved for very few

um and I I can do them on other terrain

besides just my familiar home park

um and I guess that's probably the point

where I felt like I I have something

that is more valid than just

a niche style of skating that only

happens in at my hometown Park

you know when you you think about why

you were able to do that like why you

were incrementally better or you know

significantly better than your peer

group have you ever figured out in terms

of what they call Talent why that is is

it

smart is it physical attributes

um I think it was that

I

I wasn't afraid to step out of my

comfort zone

and I also wasn't afraid to get hurt

along the way

and I accepted that as part of the

process

and I can't say that very many people

did that I mean definitely definitely my

peer group the ones that were skating at

the time they knew what it took to to

get that far and they were willing to

take the hits for it but also I like to

explore other techniques that weren't

comfortable or or maybe that I even

thought were cool because I wanted to

learn everything

and so I would I would start I would go

off on these tangents of trying certain

tricks or a board manipulation and then

lean into that and do every single

variation of that and then move on to

something else and then all of that

started to combine into this trick

repertoire that I that I had that was

that was pretty deep

you know they say when you if you want

to master something you've got to do 10

000 hours yeah sounds like you did a lot

of hours at that at that very I mean at

some point I was probably doing just one

trick ten thousand times

[Laughter]

we say all of this you know you said

later in my pro career and then you said

you were 16.

yeah well my I've had a pretty lengthy

pro career but I would say that around

age 16 is when I started to come into my

own and and was able to shut down any of

the of the pushback or the haters so to

speak because they were all saying oh

he's only good at his home park or he's

only you know he only does these these

goofy little tricks and at some point it

was like you can't really deny that I'm

doing these tricks in the most difficult

circumstances and consistently and so

I had this this run of success in my

late teens that was I thought

unparalleled I mean in terms of suddenly

I was I was making income I owned a

house when I was still in my last year

of high school

from my earnings

and everything's the trajectory just

seemed like it was

it was never going to end and then it it

dropped very quickly in the early 90s

and then I had a good three or four

years were very slow

um and and touch and go in terms of

trying to make a living provide for a

family

um and then things kind of came back

around in the late 90s so when I say

early in my or you know late in my

career there's a few stages of that

in that first stage it's from 16 to uh

about 20 23 23 yeah and at that point I

read that by 16 years old you were the

best in the world you were widely right

uh I I had why I was ranked number one

for a while yeah

um and It's Tricky though I mean I I

don't like I don't like saying that just

because skating is is subjective and

it's apples to oranges so

who's the best that's all in the guys

the beholder I did well in competition I

I got good scores and I had a good run

I mean I think you're slightly

underplaying that because I you know I

was reading through some stats and I

read that 16 you were widely regarded as

the best skateboarder in the world and

by 25 you'd won 73 of the 103

professional contact contests you'd

entered finishing in second place a

further 19 times

which is for me pretty freakish I yeah I

mean like I said I had a good run but

also it's a specific style so I was

skating uh pools and half pipes

um and then in the early 90s Street

skating came into its own and what you

see today with people jumping downstairs

on handrails Ledges and things like that

that was just starting to Blossom

and I realized pretty early on that that

was not my strength and that my

um ratio of success to injury was much

higher doing that so I I kind of I kind

of gave it up I was in it for a while I

was skating some of the competitions and

I was doing a lot of Tours and things

and then at one point I was driving home

from a tour

um I had sprained one ankle almost to

the point of breaking it but somehow

didn't and then in the process of

nursing that one I was still skating

because we were on tour I I rolled the

other ankle trying to save this ankle

and then I'm driving home with these

with these uh with ice on both ankles

with a car full of of skaters and in

that moment I thought I can't keep doing

it this way like this this is not

sustainable I'm not going to be able to

be a pro skater much longer if I'm if I

think I'm gonna

do this type of skating and so I'm gonna

stick with more of the half pipe which

which is what I know even though that

wasn't the popular way of skating I just

knew that if I wanted to keep skating

into my adult life I was gonna have to

stick with with my expertise

and I'm right in thinking from what

you've said there that your skating

career started to really take off you

know 15 16 kind of Peaks at one point at

around that 23ish I would say around 21

22 is when it started to Peak yeah and

at what point in that Journey did you

think I'm gonna Escape professionally

perform the rest of my life was there a

point where you go this is a job now you

never no um in fact when I was uh 24 is

when I started my company birdhouse and

I honestly thought starting a company

was my way of of sort of bowing out of

the spotlight and not being a so-called

professional skater because there was

there were very there was very little

opportunity for me as a half pipe or

vert skater to be doing anything and I

was trying to nurture a group of skaters

that were mostly Street and trying to

give them

New Opportunities and trying to uh

have them promote our company as well so

I thought that I was curating a team and

I was going to be sort of the ringleader

of it but not be considered a pro myself

I never quit skating though that was

that was just in my blood and so at some

point

a few years later

things start to pick up again the X

Games happened

um they had a they had a half pipe

contest and I was still on top of my

game

so after that I started to compete a lot

more because the interest grew and then

I was I was winning a lot of events it's

we we don't often think it's possible

for a sport to kind of experience a

downturn right commercial downturn like

thinking about the big Sports of today

the NBA basketball whatever it be the

thought that it could kind of have an

economic downturn and put the athletes

out of business for a while is kind of

inconceivable for me so I mean most of

most of my peers quit

in the 1990s because yeah or or quit or

not

I can't say quit most of them found jobs

because so what what happened in the

skating industry the commercial side of

the business

there was a few things I think that

skating had gone through Cycles in the

past in the late 70s skating was the new

fad it was like the if for especially in

the US was like the yo-yo and it's the

new toy and it's a transportation and

you can do all these things and then and

then that that fad kind of faded out and

then in the 80s it became this thing

because we were skating the empty pools

and there was this attitude and the

music and the hairdos and the graphics

and then it and Back to the Future and

so that was another spike in popularity

and a lot of skate parks were opening in

those days and I think in the late 80s

the liability became too much for these

Escape facilities and they just started

closing very quickly I mean there was

just a toppling of of skate parks

through I would say 89 to 91 and then

there was no place to do it because

there were no public parks these all

these facilities are private there were

a few but they were not good it

um and so all these private Parks were a

closing shop and then we had the skaters

had nowhere to go

so that's when skating took to the

underground and became more

street-centric

your dad was working in the industry as

well he was in the in the 80s yeah he he

helped to form the national skateboard

Association which sanctioned most of the

events through those years

how did how did he get into

skateboarding

he saw he saw me and and he saw how much

I loved it and he saw a very a serious

lack of organization

um and he was always very supportive of

his kids I mean my brother was a surfer

he would drive him to the beach at dawn

to to get the good ways my my sister was

in a band he would he would be the

Roadie for the band and drive all their

gear to the gigs so when I started

skating he was all in on supporting it

but he saw that it was just sort of

chaos there were there was very little

organization there were very few events

and he saw a group of kids like me that

loved it and had very little support

it's been quite entrepreneurial about

that about your dad founding them yeah I

don't I don't he never did it he never

really got paid so you know to think

that it was entrepreneurial it was it

was more altruistic than anything

did that create a conflict of interest

if or like it was hard yeah it was

absolutely difficult for me in those

years because I was doing well

and then there was uh there were uh

claims of nepotism

um there was a lot of animosity and it

was uncomfortable for me because my dad

was always there and I was doing well

so it would be one thing if I wasn't

skating that well if I was just sort of

mid-range

um but I think that all of that just

drove me to get better and prove

everyone wrong I mean I I'd like to say

that

I didn't I didn't enjoy it but it

definitely lit a fire

it's interesting when when people attack

you in such a way or they try and

discredit you especially when you're of

course only when you're doing well

it can evoke a series of responses in

you yeah I I was under a lot of pressure

and a lot of accusations like that and

um

I just kind of put my head down and just

focused on my skating until

until I shut him up

um but even then it was

it was always tricky you know it was

like that then my dad he got out of it

um and not long after that he got sick

and passed away in lung cancer

um but

then the X Games came around and like I

said I was still on top of my game and

then I was the I was sort of the one

they were focusing on because my name

had resonated from the previous

generation and then I was I was doing

well in competition so then the other

skaters were accusing me of hogging the

spotlight I I'm I'm not choosing the

programming here

and so that was tricky too but I I think

I learned so much from my early days of

of sort of being the outcast and the

outcast activity that that it you

weren't really gonna I I had sort of

built up a resilience to all that

but it's still difficult right like the

outcast and the outcast activity oh yeah

I felt very isolated yep

in real that's the word isolated but in

real terms what does that look like for

a young man who's doing something that

he loved he's got really [ __ ] good at

it so now there's they're pointing the

camera at him there's all this

commercial pressure what impact does

that have on on the love for it

well luckily I had been doing it for so

long at that point and had seen it come

and go that

I was excited in the sense that

skateboarding was going to get a new A

Renewed interest

and if I was the conduit to that then

I'll accept it I wasn't trying to get

all the glory I just wanted to see

skateboarding

be more accessible and get more popular

and so at some point

I don't want to say that anyone

appointed me but but it was definitely I

was this chosen ambassador

to skateboarding

um because I could I could do interviews

and I could speak on behalf of skating

at its core but also to a mainstream

audience to make them understand why

skating could be valid or why it would

be a positive influence on their kids

the one of the reasons you gave for why

you love skateboarding and why it filled

you up originally was because of that

camaraderie though and isolation seems

to be kind of the opposite of um I I was

isolated in the sense that the the

hardcore skaters the older generation

didn't support me didn't want anything

to do with me but I did have my crew I

mean it wasn't completely isolated it

was I had a few friends that we all had

the same sense of of values and the same

sort of directives for skating so

um I would bounce ideas off of them and

we would come up with with tricks

together sometimes sometimes it was just

something that they were asking me to do

um but but that sent some camaraderie is

what I'm talking about

um but it was very it was a very limited

crew and yeah I mean I was I chose to do

this Outcast activity as a kid already

separating me from my classmates my

peers kids my age they're like

skateboarding's so lame why are you

doing that

then I choose a skateboard my style of

skateboarding is not cool it's

considered a circus like I'm just a

circus freak doing these little

uh baton Twirls with my skateboard

so then I'm cast aside from the

skateboarding community

and that that's what became

that became isolating

but

that all that stuff just would fuel me

to to get better

and I I didn't

it's not like I'm thankful for it but I

accepted it and I went out to prove

myself

I am I I sat with a motivation

psychologist called Daniel pink and he

was telling me one of the they did these

studies on people in terms of trying to

figure out how their motivation

fluctuates and he found that when people

get paid for something that was once a

hobby their love and motivation for it

declines which I thought was really

paradoxical I wouldn't expect when you

get paid to do a hobby you'd expect

motivation to increase I agree with that

except that

when I got into skateboarding no one was

getting paid

no no one was getting accolades no one

was getting attention

and so I never aspired to that and what

I see now is I see I do see kids that

get into skateboarding with the notion

that they will get rich or famous or and

or famous

and if they get any sense of fame or

Fortune they lose their motivation so I

agree with you in that sense but if

you're getting into a an activity a

sport an art form or whatever that has

not been established and it's not there

there's no clear path to success I feel

like your motivation is always just to

get better at it

and and

the money and and the fam and everything

that's all incidental to just being able

to keep doing it did you did you love

for ever fluctuate

um only when

I started getting burned out in

competition

um sometime around 1988 89 uh I was

doing really well in the events

and it started to become repetitive for

me

I would go to an event I'd have to I'd

have to hide new tricks from my my

competitors and from the judges because

at some point the judges were giving me

scores based on what they thought I

could do not compared to everyone else

in the event but just what they thought

I was capable of so if I came to an

event with some new tricks and they saw

me doing those new tricks in practice

and I didn't do them in my competition

runs I would get marked down

based on what they thought you know

based on judging me against myself

and that was fine like I accepted all

that but it was more that that

it got repetitive it started to get

it started to suck the fun out of it

because I was just this machine like

this competitive machine and my

competitors who I thought were my

friends who I still do

were very much

under the impression that oh well Tony's

just gonna win so we're hoping for

second and they would tell me that

and they thought that that was a

compliment to me to me it was just it

was crushing because it just meant that

that somehow they were separating me

from the pack and the the crew that I

loved like the I I love the the

camaraderie of the team and and the

camaraderie of all the skaters and it

was like they're just pushing me out

from that because they think that I'm on

a different

level or playing or whatever it was and

and I'd as much as you you think that's

a compliment it wasn't

the term burnout is used a lot these

days

um people use it in in their jobs in

works and in hobbies and such what what

um what did that experience teach you

about what causes burnout

um

well it it taught me that even if you're

doing what you love it's not always

going to be enjoyable

um because of the pressure of success

because of the self-imposed pressure

that you put

um but

what it did teach me was the value

of letting go

and when I let go of that even as hard

as it was because my my sponsors were

saying if you quit competing you're out

there was no other path to success in

skateboarding you couldn't make a living

on YouTube on social media you know a

reality show whatever it was it was just

your competition rankings that was it

that's what you're that's what your

success was and they they told me you

know what are you gonna do how do you

expect to make a living and I was like I

don't know but I can't keep going this

direction and what happened was when I

was when I was removed from it

I started to appreciate

the process of learning new tricks more

I started to appreciate the idea that I

could be more creative and take more

chances and at some point I I missed

competing but I had to sort of discover

that Within Myself

on my own terms and then when I came

back to competing

I let go of the idea of perfection I let

go of the idea that I had to do the best

every single time and I took way more

chances and sometimes it didn't work

sometimes I didn't make the finals but

when I did make the finals I was doing

it on a level that I was proud of I

wasn't

I wasn't phoning it in so to speak I

wasn't being conservative with with my

my Approach

and that became much more fun

it was more risky but when it would work

it was something that I was much more

proud of

is there is there is there a um I

sounded a lot to me like you're you

built this identity because you've been

so successful and you almost had to kind

of decouple from that identity which

always feels like a big risk to people

in their jobs yeah it was but but uh it

was either that or quit quit altogether

because it was really Weighing on me it

was real it was very difficult

when you say very difficult what does

that mean in in Practical terms you mean

like sleepless nights or

yeah and and

dreading

events

going going to an event and and dreading

it I mean it's it's almost like Pink

Floyd The Wall it's just I was building

a wall around everyone around myself and

and Performing was just obligatory

because everyone expected me to do it

everyone expected me to do well to to

win the event whatever it was and there

was no

celebration in that there was no

there was nothing that that made me feel

elated it was just it was I was a

machine and I'd go and do the event and

and win the trophy get the prize money

and go home

and then go skate and go try to learn

new tricks

that was the fun part

but really what I was doing was just

trying to prepare for the next event

which is probably another in a week or

two away

is

um

it's quite surprising but it's a story

that I've heard over and over again this

idea that your success almost

disconnected you from

from some it disconnected you from

others and probably from yourself in

many respects and I think I think about

this a lot how when you become

successful you can you need to be

careful that you don't get disconnected

along the way there's lots of Temptation

with talent to disconnect yourself

um whether you're a lawyer and you've

just been good at being a lawyer and you

end up 20 15 years down the line and you

go what the [ __ ] am I doing here and who

have I become or you're a pro

skateboarder and you kind of drift away

from

from the essence of what makes us feel

connected

oh for sure and I saw I saw plenty of my

peers I think one one thing that saved

me is that I loved the skating so much

that I saw my peers get distracted with

partying

with the excess and they would start to

lose their motivation and their and

their skill sets and I recognized that

very early on and thought I don't want

to go down that road because the skating

is too important to me this I want to

keep performing at a top level

um and

for sure I had my I I had my

distractions through my through my life

and and through my adult my adult years

but

um but skating was always such a high

priority that that I never lost that

did you have to you talked about you've

seen some of your friends at that time

go down the wrong path because because

of Temptations yeah did you ever notice

yourself drifting down that path

um yeah I think it was more the when I

got caught up in the fame of it all in

um more in the late 90s early 2000s when

my video game was a big hit and suddenly

I was not just doing skate events I was

doing talk shows and I was doing big

appearances and and getting caught up in

that level of Fame is very disorienting

and I could see myself

I could see myself

falling into that where it's like well

I'm now I'm a celebrity

and now I will go to the Red Carpet

Events and do the you know and the clubs

and all that and I I definitely indulged

a bit in that but at some point

recognize that this is just not what I

want to be doing and this is not

this is not not as fun as skating

and and these are not the people I

really identify with

I mean a lot of the people that I saw

through those years especially at the

big events and stuff they they all they

really wanted was to be famous

and at some point I I got famous by

accident

and it's not necessarily what I wanted

and at some point I took inventory of

that and I realized that I don't really

care

you know what I mean like I don't I

don't care if I don't get into this VIP

thing whatever it is like take it or

leave it

I am when I got a little bit of money I

think I ha my insecurities meant that I

had to have certain beliefs fail me

before I learned them so I was the kid

that went to like got a little bit of

money started going to the nightclubs

buying all the champagne

leaves you feeling fairly Hollow after a

while if you're paying attention

absolutely yeah I mean that's the thing

is I just felt

especially in through those years when I

was going through the the fire of of

celebrity culture

I never felt fulfilled and you'd wake up

in the morning it's like what what was

that

what good and also it was it was

distracting me from my own kids and I

think that that's really what what made

me want to make a positive change in my

life is that I felt like I was not I was

not told I was there but I wasn't really

available emotionally to my children

um as much as I could be because I was

so distracted with all this other noise

and

um I I pulled it around I mean I was

able to

get back get be more connected

um just be part of what they were doing

even on a more basic level and that to

me is way more fulfilling it is I mean

that's just you know I could

I could wax poetic but it I do feel like

I I feel so much more

confident and fulfilled and excited

about all those things to see my kids

um to see my kids thrive

than to care about

getting invited to the Oscars uh

sometimes in my life anyway my partner's

been the person to point that out before

I've noticed it in myself so my

girlfriend will notice that I may be

losing my way a little bit in terms of

priorities and it'll require her

feedback to tell me

that I'm losing my way a little bit for

me to really notice it in myself do you

resonate with that at all

um I

I would say yes if you were asking me

five ten years ago but now I do see it I

see it myself it's I'm I'm much more

cognizant of it in my own choices and

it is wild I mean I never imagined that

I'd be a pro skater of past 20 honestly

because when you were

when you were my when you were a kid

skating in my era all the once you reach

an age of responsibility you had to quit

because no one could make it wasn't

anyone's job right so to be skating in

my 20s and then into my 30s was wild it

was I mean I was in Uncharted Territory

but I was still getting better at it and

then when I reached my 40s it was like

really still you guys still think this

is okay for me to do and not that

I was looking for that in that kind of

approval

but it was kind of a surprise and also I

kept getting better at it in those years

and then to be doing it in my 50s is

just like

a a lucid dream it's crazy that

um it's funny I kind of went through the

fire it was like when I was a kid it was

like oh you're pretty good for your age

and then when I got in my 30s and 40s

like you still skate like haven't you

grown out of it and now when I'm in my

50s it's like hey you're pretty good for

your age

when was your um when do you if you look

back on your years of in terms of

technical ability when was your

professional

Peak or is it now

oh uh I think it was in my

probably in my mid to late 30s and early

40s because that's when I was still

doing

all of my high impact high risk moves

but combined with highly technical moves

so I kind of had I had the the gamut of

of of the skating in terms of being able

to

do the big stuff

um the dangerous stuff and also the very

the very technical stuff and so as I've

moved into my Twilight years I don't

know what you call this but I've learned

to to focus more on the technical

because it's it's more low impact and it

keeps me keeps me healthy for the most

part I mean I am I am nursing uh I'm

still recovering from a broken femur

last year but even that has taught me

that

I still love doing this and I still love

it even if I'm not going to be

at the the top of the game or or if I'm

even gonna be

on video or or doing it in front of

people I still want to do it

um and I still love it but like I said

I've I've sort of

focused my energy more into the

technical moves and and I would say the

tricks that I was learning before I got

hurt were more appreciated by skaters

themselves they weren't going to move

the needle on X Games or anything

to get to your level in any industry if

you were advising a kid that's maybe an

artist a DJ whatever when you look back

on what it takes to get there what are

the like core components of that level

of Mastery and success and like do that

you must have sometimes think like like

why me

because you know

living such an anomalous life and

becoming number one in anything I think

I've seen it over and over again where

people start to ask themselves the

question like an existential question

like

uh sure yeah I every day but um I think

to to answer your question

the focus it takes is is pretty intense

to get to do especially what I do

um for so many years

and also I think that

the ability to

to to listen and to take cues or

inspiration from others around you in

terms of inspiring or influencing what

you do

and I don't mean like I'm not saying

like borrowing or stealing Styles or

anything I'm talking about just being

open to oh that's that's a new way to do

it and and even collaborating with

people what if we tried this or maybe

you did that and and

um not just living in your own in your

own bubble

um because some people tend to do that

they they have their way they have they

have they found what how they succeed

how they keep moving forward and they

stay in that lane they stay in that

bubble and sometimes that works but for

the most part you can only go so far

with it and you've got to start to sort

of Branch out and see what else is there

in terms of your chosen

activity sport art whatever it is

um and I I love that idea that I'm

getting out of my comfort zone

and trying something weird and it's

probably not going to work right away

and it's probably going to be super ugly

when I finally do it but I'm gonna get

to a point where it's more natural

do you what's the balance between

learning the rules of the trade I how

it's already been done and learning to

do it your way I always think this to

become great you need to like be the

best at how it's done now or do you need

to like add a little sprinkle of

yourself well I luckily skating is so

subjective that

adding your own Flair to it is always

encouraged

and so for instance there's some tricks

basic tricks that

you know 80 of professional skaters can

do this one trick but if you take a

picture of one of them and put it on

Silhouette I can tell you who it is

because everyone has their own style of

it

and what makes for a good style

subjectively it's I'd say it's sort of

the flow of the move from start to

finish including when you're before you

even leave the ground

or the or the ramp or whatever it is you

know that you make it look like one one

fluid motion and that you can

twist it torque it a little differently

and then someone else

but stay in control

that's what it's about I it's it it's

really hard to convey

and some of that has to be

like you know

Talent I'm struggling with the word

talent but some of it uh nature of a

nurture yeah sure

everyone has their own different body

types and their own thing but but you

can see influences like

for instance

um

we haven't we have this uh girl on our

team Rhys Nelson she's very young but

she skates for ramps and you can tell

who she skates with by her trick

selection

because she's influenced by the the

certain skaters that she's with and and

some of them have very specific moves

that that are associated with them

and like she just learned from those

slides all right I'm just I'm gonna go

down into the weeds for you show their

Kip knob slides which is a signature

move of a skater named Colin McKay and I

and I literally said have you been

skating with Colin she said yeah he

comes here in the morning sometimes and

skates with me

it's like there it is interesting

when I when you speak to Surfers they

talk about how surfing's like a metaphor

for life

and they like Wax lyrical about you know

what that metaphor is is skating a

metaphor for Life uh it can be sure I I

think the the value of

not giving up the value of believing in

yourself and the value of

of

working through your own challenges

I think that's probably the the biggest

metaphor and for me

um what I learned from it is also the

value of taking risks

you know in the greater sense uh of

becoming a businessman

I wasn't afraid to take risk skating I'm

not afraid to take risks in business

the value of not giving up and taking

risks I had you spent 12 years trying to

master one particular trick yes called

the 900 which I think I did on the on

the video game back in the day when I

was when I was younger which is like a

two and a half two and a half spin yeah

two and a half spin trick and it took

you you tried for 12 years

off and on yes

um from the first time I tried it had

anyone done it before you no

um yeah that was a battle

um so I learned seven twenties in 1985.

and the next stage of progression for

that in terms of spinning and for

skating would be 900 the the

what makes it so much more difficult is

that you're blind to your Landing Zone

twice when you do a 900. when you do a

540 or even a 720 you're only blind to

your Landing Zone once

and when you pass it twice it's very

hard to spot where you should be or to

even know uh spatially where you are so

it took me the first probably five years

of attempts just to figure out where I

was in the air and when I say five years

I'm not talking about like every day it

was more I would I would get fired up

I'd had a good session or I was skating

a really good ramp and then I would try

a couple and they always ended in some

sort of injury you know it was very hard

to get out of it safely

um I broke my rib one time when I really

thought I had it

but once I figured out that spinning

then I started to explore okay how do I

get the landing and that's when I

started actually pursuing it I would say

more in like the years of 94 to 96 I was

actively trying it regularly and when I

finally thought that I had it I put it

down and then I I broke my rib because I

was leaning too far forward and

in that moment

I kind of gave up on it

that was in 96. because I thought I had

all the pieces to it I I had

every element I had in my head I I had

it was the it was the right take off it

was right setup is the right Spin and

apparently I can't figure out how to how

to land it properly so fast forward to

1999

um they're having a best trick event at

the X Games and halfway into the event I

did my best trick

which I had planned that I had only done

once before and it was a variation of a

720 it was it was a very old 720.

so I did that trick and then I had 10

minutes left of this event

I don't know where else to go from there

except try what the next trick that I

would like to do which is a 900

um and

when I started trying it

I'd say the first few attempts I just

did for the crowd it was more like this

is

this is my next state or this is what's

next maybe it's not for me but you know

this is what I would like to see done

and then somewhere around my fourth or

fifth try I realized that

I'm always getting the right amount of

speed my my snap is good the snap is the

take off when you actually leave the the

top of the ramp and grab your board

because a lot of times the snap is if

that's off it's tragic

my snap was good I can see the landing

Zone and I thought you know what if I'm

ever going to try to land this again

it'll be tonight

and if I break a rib so what like I'm

either gonna make this or get taken away

on a stretcher those are the only two

outcomes

um and then when I did finally try to

make it somewhere around the I don't

know ninth or tenth attempt

I fell forward again but I didn't get

hurt

and something

there was something clicked

in my head that said

why not shift your weight to your back

foot

during the spin

and then try to land it and for some

reason I never had

I never had that Clarity because when I

would go to try to make it I'd get hurt

and I'd have to go home

so in this particular instance I didn't

get hurt so I thought okay what if I

shift my weight towards the back and

then I shift my weight towards the back

and I fell backwards and that was the

epiphany

because

all I have to do is split the difference

and then I made the next one

all they have to do is put the

difference I mean so muggle like me you

make it sound easy what was that moment

like

it was just a big relief I mean it was

it was it was definitely a highlight of

my skate career of my of my

um competitive career but for me it was

just this weight lifted from me because

it had always sort of

hung on me that oh 900 it's got to be

possible and there were a few of us

chasing it there were other skaters that

were getting pretty close to it too

um but no one had figured out how to

ride away

once you've done it once was it easy to

repeat easier to repeat yeah it took a

while for me to do a second one

and then after I did my second one then

I could do it pretty regularly

and at this time you've got this deal

with Activision bubbling bubbling away

at that time we had been working on a

video game for about a year and a half

so there was definitely a crazy Synergy

perfect storm in that moment because I

did that trick that Drew a lot of

attention to obviously me but uh but not

just me but skateboarding in general and

the X Games and then that was in June

and then we released uh

what became Tony oxpro skater in

September

wow and I was watching the video of you

saying that you you called the guy

Activision to ask him to include the 900

trick it never stopped yeah I I emailed

him yeah that's a good story I I emailed

uh neversoft the next day and I said hey

I did this thing

um and I think that people are gonna

expect to see it in the game now and I

know we didn't animate a 900 but I feel

like if you guys have time to squeeze it

in and we were already in beta with the

game which meant that we were going to

submit it to the console manufacturers

and once you do that you cannot edit it

you can't alter it

um and I remember

Joel who was the the head of never

stopped he emailed me back right away

and he said way ahead of you you [ __ ]

rule

and then they got it in

I mean and the rest is history right I

guess I hoped I like to think I'm still

creating it you know your father Frank

he'd been such an avid huge supporter of

you up until that point but he didn't he

didn't get to live to see

the real all of this stuff after you

were sort of 27 28 years old right no he

he saw the first X Games right and to

him that was as big as things could ever

get because

he was a big sports fan not just you

know obviously he loved skateboarding

but he also loved team sports

and

um for him to see skateboarding on the

sports network that was for him the

coming of age

gosh I bet he couldn't have imagined

no I mean and to think that it's gone on

to be

such a a beloved sport internationally

and in the Olympics I mean all that is

is just beyond

what he would have imagined do you has

every question have you ever wished that

he could have seen the what would happen

with your career professionally but also

in business

I'd rather

to see

the rise of skateboarding in general

because he was so integral in keeping it

alive

at a time when it was struggling

um

through through sanctioning events

so I mean sure my own success yeah but

but I do feel like on a on a bigger

scale

in more lofty terms just the success of

skateboarding is something that

that

he would have been very proud of

that that video game deal we all get

emails and these emails often contain

opportunities and sometimes we look at

these emails we're trying to figure out

if it's an opportunity or not sometimes

it looks like an opportunity sometimes

it's a waste of time sometimes it's just

someone yeah wanting a meeting to pick

your brain about something

um as you reflect on your decision now

in hindsight to proceed with that video

game was there any close calls

there was another group doing a game

that had contacted me

and I

um

I went down the road with them a little

bit

and realized that what they were trying

to do was so much more

um how to how to explain it it was more

technically difficult to play

because they were trying to truly

emulate skating

and I felt like

I understood that approach but at the

same time Skating wasn't that big

when we released this game or when we

were going to release this game and

I wanted something that would be more

friendly to the non-skater to play to

understand to be able to just pick up

and start doing tricks and when I saw

what Activision had they had a very

they had a very early version of a

skater doing tricks

the way it moved and and to me it was it

was

intuitive

it was perfect it was like right away I

started playing it I started doing

tricks it was almost like it was it was

an extension of of my body to start

doing this on that screen with that

skater and it's something

innately felt right about it to me

and so uh was there a close call

I would say if Activision maybe had

called me a month or two later I might

have already linked a deal so

um but I felt very lucky on the

commercial front I read that you'd been

offered a kind of a flat check

in well it when they were close to

launch of the game

they started to sense that there was

Buzz about it it was already getting

good reviews from from previews of the

the game Publishers I mean not the the

magazine Publishers so

they knew they had a good game overall

and they felt this this surge of

interest and so they offered me a buyout

of future royalties right before the

game launched

um which at the time it was they offered

me a half million dollars and they said

you know I said what does that mean they

said well that that's you get that right

now and then no money going forward

and for me having lived through some

really lean times

when they say a half million dollars to

me it sounds like a billion gazillion

dollars I mean it would no one had ever

spoken those types of numbers to me

before

um but I felt like I was in a pretty

good place I was I was doing well

in other ways I was I was still skating

a lot I was doing events I was um I had

good endorsements I was I was doing we

had birdhouse was starting to actually

be profitable my skate company and I had

just bought a new house with a with a

not you know I had a loan but my loan

was manageable and I thought I'm gonna

take a risk because

I'm doing okay and I don't need that

money right now

and even the timing of that like if it

had been just a few months before that

when I was looking at houses maybe I

would have

taken that

um but I I didn't and that was

definitely the best financial decision

of my life

because that game was a success to say

that one and then the ones after it and

the ones after it yeah how does one that

might not understand the scale of that

success quantify in a in a dollar amount

how many

how much revenue Tony Hawk Pro skates

are generated in its in its Legacy I I

mean I know that they they talk about a

billion dollars for Activision

um you know my take is not that

grandiose but I am never going to

complain it changed my life completely

a billion dollars they they generated in

sales

that that was that was always there

they're a big buzz yes

so much I mean so much happens obviously

that that makes you financially

free

um for you know

but also you're you become like

the Michael Jordan of skating you are

you know I I was playing you on my video

game on the other side of the world when

I was

how old was I I'm gonna say eight

yes you know you become This Global icon

of a sport and it's funny because I

didn't know skating before I knew the

video game

the video game was my way into to uneven

understanding that the sport existed and

I would play with my brothers that's a

that's going from zero to a thousand in

terms of no time for sure and and

um

that was never lost on me I mean I I

felt very lucky to have my name

synonymous with a video game and with

skateboarding uh because I had devoted

my life to it were you prepared for that

no

no how could you prepare for anything

like that

there's no way I mean it it's it

to have that kind of success especially

in video games is reserved for someone

like Madden

or

Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto I mean

it's you know to have it be your name

was wild and and

nowadays I mean we've come a long way we

did a remaster a couple years ago

there is a whole generation of of kids

I'm not kidding that have asked me if I

was named after a video game foreign

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what would you what advice would you

have given yourself if you could have to

prepare yourself

if you could just whisp it in your ear

um I think I would have I would have

told my younger self to

work on

work on your state of mind and your

priorities

um

with with equal effort as you do your

skating

I was so hyper fixated on my skating and

getting better at my success in skating

that

um I didn't really work on my Humanity I

mean in terms of my relationships and

and being present and and

maybe that's what it took to get that

far but I think I would just tell my

younger self like

to to figure out figure out how to

function more as a human than just a

professional did you lose people

yeah

um and also gained people through

through my

um

changes and through my through finding

my priorities and I mean honestly like

I'm in a incredible place I'm happier

than I've ever been and I have much

better relationships with my kids even

though most of them are adults and

I'm just more reliable

what is um what is skating without the

relationships like what is skating for

you so if you were to if I was to take a

you can escape forever you can carry on

doing your skating but I'm gonna take

away

the family and the meaningful

relationships what does life become then

um that doesn't sound as fun

foreign

it's

not the end-all for me anymore I love it

and I'm going to keep doing as long as I

can and probably still push myself in a

lot of ways but

that is compartmentalized and it's when

I do it I'm all in on it and I'm doing

it and then I leave it there

I'm not just obsessing on it the rest of

the day I am I've I was speaking to a I

think a neuroscientist on this podcast

who told me that the brain actually

changes as we as we age up until about

30 where I think for a male it roughly

stops changing when we get to 30 I think

he he said to me

um and with that our priorities changed

so in our early 20s we're like trying to

get laid and like trying to do the

things that whatever and then as we get

into our 30s and and beyond our

priorities in life shift

um did you notice with age your priority

shift or was it the children

um

I think I just noticed that I was stuck

in a cycle

of compulsive behaviors

and something that that I didn't enjoy

and didn't feel like it was helping me

to have good relationships with my

family with my kids and I think I just

took inventory and thought I gotta make

a a positive change and so it wasn't it

wasn't like my brain was changing and I

figured you know it was more that I had

to go get help lean into

therapy figure out how to process all

these things and how to how to move

forward in a much more

congruent way with my values and

I was able to do it it took a while but

it was more into my 40s that that

happened

what did what did therapy help you to

realize about about yourself and why you

were exhibiting compulsive behaviors

did you ever figure out why

um yeah I think a lot of it was just

being afraid of intimacy and a lot of

that I'm not blaming my parents but

definitely I didn't have great examples

of it growing up

so

um I had to figure that out and and and

how well how to be vulnerable I think I

was always very guarded

you and me both

it was I mean and also in those days of

having this sort of unwanted attention

made me more guarded because it was like

oh I can't

do any I can't say the wrong thing or do

the wrong thing and and it didn't allow

me to be myself very much and and I

think I'm much more comfortable in my

own skin now and able to

able to to hold a more interesting

conversations

do you've got children now so do you you

know I often think about like

generational Cycles I think about the

like the intimacy or the emotional

expression that I didn't learn from my

parents and like an uh fear that I have

had hanging over me is that I might

replicate that for my children sure

accidentally yeah and and I I

was definitely worried about that like

my dad never

never said I love you never professed

that kind of thing or or was warm in

that sense and so that was more my

example to live by and and through the

years and I was I was very much kind of

the same and

um at some point

let go of that

I still struggle with it now yeah you

know it's it's funny I again I've spoken

to lots of just sort of childhood

therapists Gabel mate and um they talk

about like these different types of

traumas that we have in one of them is

called goblins near this Gremlins and he

talks about how goblins are usually

before the age of 10 years old and

they're very very hard to shake so they

always kind of

live there somewhere in us so even

sometimes saying being intimate now or

being vulnerable or saying I love you

it's like it's difficult

for me

I get that it's uncomfortable yes I'm

I'm starting to get much more at ease

with it though with practice

with practice Yeah

and running the experiment I guess

yeah and also I see I see how it makes

my kids feel

it makes them feel seen and and loved

and and important

and it's particularly important as I've

come to learn if you want to have a good

relationship with a woman or man but

yeah

my girlfriend is very much the opposite

in terms of intimacy so it's kind of

it's an ongoing friction

what role has um your your wife played

in the broader context of your

professional success

just a a feeling of well she's she's

just so grounded and she gives me a

sense of home

and she is very supportive but also has

her priorities intact so

when in in deciding what to get involved

with she's my sounding board

um and and she's the one who I trust the

most with her opinion and

um

and she understands that that I am

challenged in terms of my sense of

intimacy and and how to navigate

fatherhood and she has been so great in

opening that up for me

um and helping to show me the the best

way to navigate it

um

and just the

she's not swayed by

fanfare

at all

at all she could do away with it all

together

um and I love that and and I cherish

that

I guess that's what makes you feel like

home right that all the noise oh yeah

it's outside yeah absolutely I mean if

you catch us on a Saturday night we're

and a lot of times like our a couple of

our boys are in college one of them's in

college up here in La one of we have

many children so

let's just say that sometimes they'll

come home for the weekend and as much as

we like seeing them if you catch us on

Saturday night they're downstairs

watching UFC fights with their homies

and we're upstairs hiding from everyone

and we're asleep by 9 pm that's pretty

much our big raging weekend

you know after you become the the icon

of a sport

um what does that do to your sense of

identity and I I I'm asking that

question because now everyone assumes

they know you before they've met you

they kind of see you as this character

from a game

I think uh what you see is what you get

with me

I'm I'm not trying to present some other

persona and like I said in the past

maybe I was more guarded with who I was

or or how I was trying to be and now I I

think I'm just more much more natural

and much more real and

um this is it you know I'm super

thankful for what I get to do

I do not take this for granted at all

and I know it could all be gone tomorrow

um but I'm going to seize opportunities

and do the best I can with it and and in

the meanwhile try to promote

skateboarding on a bigger level but

I know what you're saying and and

sometimes that is weird but at the same

time

I'm open to hanging out having a

conversation you know Bear Grylls yes so

Bear Grylls was the one that said to me

that when he he's almost become

synonymous with like outdoor activities

like if your friends like eating some

mud you'd go you think you better grills

yeah whatever and he said something

interesting to me which has always

stayed with me he said the the bigger my

brand got the more self-doubt I got and

that's true that's kind of the Imposter

syndrome right

where uh you think like why me why is it

are you are they sure they got the right

guy

um and

I understand that but at the same time I

think I've I've been through enough

phases of success and failure to know

that whatever is coming my way or

whatever it is that I'm putting out

there

um is real and is tangible

and

so the self-doubt is not as is more of a

whisper

success and failure you know you fail

every day in terms of

skating

some of the big big failures in your

life post the video game coming out

because I think we've highlighted your

story to appear to be just success

success success success Big Break

success success what are some of those

big failures that have occurred over the

last decade that we might not have been

cognizant of um well I definitely have

had businesses that fail just because

they were either not the right time or

they were they were a little beyond my

expertise and I thought somehow because

I had other success I probably could do

well in other in other uh stages or

another spaces but I um I think it's

failure yeah you know I've had failed

relationships and

um learned a lot from those and and was

able to to grow and and hopefully amend

my mistakes and and hurting people

um

and I think that uh

it's just a it's just a path of

evolution

um and so

I I mean I've always learned to embrace

my mistakes with skateboarding and in a

sense I do that with my my regular life

too

but they embraced that the idea that I

grew from them

yeah yeah yeah

business there's a there's a business

behind you even still today you have a a

big team

um what is the the entrepreneurial side

of your life currently what are your

business ventures we have

um Hawk apparel

um which is Tony Hawk clothing

um we have birdhouse skateboards

birdhouse apparel is actually its own uh

subsidiary uh with a group um with a

couple guys in Las Vegas that are doing

it which is super cool um I have the

skatepark project which is a foundation

for public skate parks in low-income

areas

um I'm part of a lot of different

Investments and Ventures