I'm um a landlord. I've got one property

which I rent out. Um I'm subject to

interest only um mortgage.

>> Okay.

>> And my monthly costs right now uh

something like £1,400 a month

>> uh plus any unforeseen, you know,

repairs or bills or whatever. So £1,400.

My more uh those are my costs. My rent

is 1,200.

So why why are you want not you but why

>> you can you can use me if you want thing

is I'm going to have to buy you a point

now I

>> you are you are why would you want me um

to subsidize people I I don't get that

kind of protection from the building

society I can't um say oh I want I want

a mortgage

>> but you're you're losing £200 a month on

your investment

>> yeah and I actually reduced my rent um a

couple of years ago but the rent I mean

so I reduced it

>> the hope would be that the equity goes

up even if you're losing money on a

monthly basis which is not guaranteed at

the moment in the way that it has been

for the last 25 years or so. I don't

want to fall out with you and and and so

I I put this very much in interrogative

tone. It's very much a question but

doesn't this just mean you are one of

the very small band of people I

referenced a moment ago as just being

not very good at this landlording l

how can you say that when

>> I'm just asking you. I said I wasn't

saying it. I was asking it.

>> I'm going to punch you in the eye. punch

me in the eye. It's a It's a genuine

inquiry because most landlords would

expect to turn a profit of sorts upon

their

>> rental people. You want people to work

to make their way in this world, don't

you? You want your tenants and protect

>> and your tenants work to help you make

your way in this world.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But I'm one of those I'm one

of those who I actually have five

properties at one point and I've sold

them all over the over the years. But

what I'm asking you, yes, is why should

I be in a worse position having worked

hard, having invested?

>> But your tenants work hard as well.

>> Yeah, but I've invested in something and

they haven't. And

>> they're buying it for you.

>> No, they're not. No, that's the No,

they're not. They're not. They're not,

James.

>> 1,200 quid they give you towards your

1,400 quid mortgage. You're only paying

2000 a month for that.

>> I've got an interestonly mortgage, so

I'm not buying the house with with that

money.

>> What on earth? How on earth have you got

outgoings of,200 quid then? Sorry. How

>> how can you have outgoings of,200 quid?

Is that just on the interest?

>> That's the interest. And there's service

charge. It's a flat, so I have to pay

service charge.

>> So you're keeping it there in the hope

that it goes up and when you sell it,

you get all the money back.

>> Well, that's what I've been doing. But

but actually the value's gone down.

>> I um

>> But why should I do it? Why why would

you want me to do it? To to work hard to

get a property, to rent it, and be a

good landlord. Why on earth

>> I don't know if you are a good I don't

know if you are a good landlord. I'm in

favor. I'm not against landlords in

general, but why are you against the

rent freeze for 12 months during this

particularly tricky time

>> cuz you said yourself that you reduced

your rent not long ago. So, I don't know

why you're getting upset about this. I

think you'll be able to accommodate it

quite easily. I don't think you need to

worry.

>> You're joking.

>> No, I'm not. If you put rents down, was

it two years ago? 12 months ago.

>> Okay. And now they're just saying you

can't put them up. So, if you put them

down a year ago, you're hardly likely to

put it up again a year later. That would

be grossly unfair on your tenant.

>> Not very logical. All

>> that's incredibly logical.

>> It costs It costs me x amount. It cost

it's costing me £1,400 a month and

you're expecting me, a normal member of

the public on a pension uh to subsidize

people that I like.

>> Yeah.

>> But why why would I do that?

>> Because you are buying a house.

>> Yeah, but it's it's gone down in value.

But that's why I think you might not be

very good at this landlording law. But

that's because the government have

brought in a whole load of rule. Did you

know that a few years ago the

Conservatives brought in a rule where

you can't claim the interest as a as a

cost anymore? Yes. It depends on your

tax band. So you can't even recoup the

money you spend out on on the interest.

>> I mean, we've got a a category error. I

look forward to um having a a tin of

anchovies with you in the black dog at

the first at the first opportunity. But

but we've got we've got a category error

here because I'm looking at this

objectively. I'm seeing landlord and

tenant. You're seeing ten you're seeing

landlord exclusively. And some of the

people who are blindly supportive of

this because they just love it from a

sort of citizen smith power to the

people kind of point will be seeing it

exclusively through the lens of of

tenant. But but this doesn't seem to me

to be a particularly

punitive

suggestion. freeze on what your current

on what your status quo currently is for

12 months. That's what I mean. It

doesn't seem to me as if they're coming

after you or demanding that you hand

over some of the money that you've

already got or give some equity to your

tenants. Just a rent freeze for 12

months as a as an act of national

interest as an act of of of of social

good social not well it would become

duty. That's the bit I don't I don't see

it as being the guillotine that you seem

to be

>> visualizing kindness. I reduced the rent

two years ago from £1,400 which is what

I had been getting to £1,200 to help

these tenants in the belief that I would

keep them. I would avoid it then cost

it.

>> I can't afford it anymore.

>> Oh, I see. So you need to So you need to

put it up already before this was

announced.

>> Uh

my fixed rate mortgage is coming to an

end.

>> Yeah. So, so you do, so even before this

was announced, you were going to have to

put the rent up again

>> and the building society um won't listen

to me and won't listen to you saying,

"Oh, let's have a freeze for a year or

two."

>> And this is where I honestly, this is

where I honestly don't know whether or

not it's time to break out the world's

tiniest violin or to say, "Rachel

Reeves, Rachel Reeves, you need to get

back to the drawing board and come up

with a better idea."

>> And the tries, they they're just as bad.

They they sing

>> I mean you must acknowledge Rich that

won't somebody think of the landlords is

quite a it's quite a tricky refrain to

be singing in the current in the current

climate.

>> Good landlords are providing good

accommodation for people who can't

afford to buy their own and there are

lots of unscripted

>> they can afford to buy their own.

They're buying it for you. They're

meeting their when they were paying

£1,400 a month. They were meeting the

interest payments on your mortgage. They

just couldn't afford the house because

they couldn't afford to they couldn't

afford to cobble a deposit together

because their landlord was charging them

so much rent.

>> So where else are they going to live?

>> Well, that's the question. I mean that

might be what happens. I think that's

happening already as a consequence of

the renters's rights act. People are

moving out of the sector. So something

conceived politically in a good place

ends up potentially having a very

negative impact on the people it was

designed to help. I I mentioned this

about six months ago because my friend

Scott was looking for a new place to

rent and saying loads of landlords are

moving out of the market. This is going

to be big in a few months time. Uh

Steve's in Newcastle. Steve, what would

you like to say?

>> Morning James. I'd like to make one

specific point uh to challenge something

you said earlier on and one general

point if I may. Of course. Yeah. Sadly,

I normally agree with you on this

occasion. I don't

>> a landlord to the right of me.

>> Uh well, I'm a land I've been one for 40

40 years in which time I've had two

tenency disputes. I must be doing

something right. Anyway,

>> so the what you suggested was that the

lady uh the the gentleman rang in and

said, "Look, his tenant couldn't afford

a mortgage on a property." And you said,

"Yeah, but you're he she's paying your

mortgage." That that may well may may or

may not be the case. The fact is that

the outgoings on a property, it ain't

just the mortgage. We're talking about

council tax. We're talking about

maintenance. The idea that buying a

property, you pay your mortgage, and

there you go. You're all right, mate.

One of the joys of renting a property

from a decent landlord is it gets

maintained and you don't pay anything.

>> You have no you have no way of knowing

whether he was a decent landlord or not.

>> Well, may may I give may I give you an

example?

>> Also, if you rent if you rent a whole

property, you normally pay your own

council tax as a tenant.

>> Yeah. Uh that that entirely depends. But

yeah, you do. So So

>> hang on. Either it entirely depends or

you do. So let's park that one.

Generally speaking, if you rent a whole

property, a house or a flat and you live

in it as your main home, then you'll be

paying the council tax. pay the council

tax. I mean, so so byanara to that

observation.

>> Well, hang on. Let me

So I I've just re-roofed a property in

which there are there are four

properties and uh a total of 15

occupiers. Um the the the roofing job

was £24,000 for which the tenants quite

rightly had to pay nothing. I'm not

moaning or crying about it. I'm simply

making the point that were they

occupiers, they would have been paying

for that. So that one of the benefits in

renting from me is that they didn't have

to. I also had recently had to employ a

drain jetting company to deal with the

main sewer where there was a problem.

Again, I don't expect any sympathy

because I don't want any. Uh but the

fact is owning a property isn't just

about paying them all.

>> No. And I I I mean I don't I'm going to

have to put this quite diplomatically. I

don't think anybody else listening to

the program thought that that's what I

was saying.

>> Okay.

>> I mean I mean obvious isn't I mean,

anyone who's been a tenant knows what

it's like, let alone anybody who's been

a landlord. Obviously, there are

outgoings that a landlord has while

maintaining the property that he owns

and somebody else pays him for the

privilege of living in. I mean, that

just that goes absolutely without

saying. But we're back to Mr. McCorba

territory, aren't we? Where, you know,

if your income is a tiny bit lower than

your outgoings, result happiness. If

your income is a shilling higher than

your outgoings, result misery. So, so,

so the only point really at which this

muted rent freeze becomes controversial

is if it moves your balance sheet from

the black to the red

>> because if all it does is reduce the

black a bit, then you know,

>> you've got to suck it up, Steve.

>> Right. I I'll equally I'll suck up a

rent freeze. What is being ignored, of

course, is the root and branch of the

problem, which was that two successive

governments, Labor, Tory and Labor, did

not allow local authorities to retain

the money from council housing that they

were forced to sell off, which is why

we're not building enough housing at at

market rent levels.

>> That's 110% true. Did which Labor

government did that then? Blair's

>> Well, they didn't change it. That that

was my argument. You know, they had the

chance to change it. They didn't change

it. Blair and Brown failed to change it.

The current government has failed to

change it. And the previous Tory

government failed to change it. They

absolutely should have changed. Of

course, they should.

>> You know, I'm with you on there. You go.

We part as friends, Steve. And you sound

like you sound like a great landlord as

well for the record.

>> Well, I hope I am. That's what I've

tried to be for 40 years.

>> And and if you've got HMOs, which you

have, I think, then you you are by

definition you are serving people who

are not in the position to be able to

buy a property for themselves under any

circumstances.

>> Yeah. a good man and that's the point. I

say some people think I'm being tongue

andcheek when I talk about nuance in the

context of something as traditionally

binary as landlord and and tenant, but

I'm not. I can say with a degree of

certainty that the uh so-called think

tanks that style themselves as um

academic institutions or or researchers

or centers for for policy studies, they

exist solely to protect wealth. Um and

that is fine as long as they're honest

about it and tell you exactly who funds

them. But it doesn't mean that all

wealth is is

I said Watton. All wealth is Waten. It

doesn't mean that all wealth is rotten.

It doesn't mean that everybody who is a

landlord is is a sort of, you know,

Denzian figure sucking the marrow from

the bones of Tiny Tim's parents in order

to fund their catar bolt hole. So, but a

rent freeze is a binary suggestion and

and it means that some people who we'd

rather not see penalized are going to be

penalized because more people are going

to benefit.