There's this book I love and I go back

to and back to called comfortable with

uncertainty. It's by the Buddhist

teacher Pemma Chodan who's also written

really really really well-known beloved

books like when things fall apart and

welcoming the unwelcome. But but this

particular book resonates with me in

part because of the title.

It has been a real revelation of my own

life how uncomfortable I was with

uncertainty.

how many places I didn't go, how many

things I didn't do, how many

conversations I wouldn't have because I

just couldn't control the way they would

turn out. And just knowing that, just

feeling uncertain, feeling a little

afraid

was enough for me to avoid the thing

altogether. But you get older and you

begin realizing how much there is that

you can't avoid. You realize that

discomfort is going to come for you

whether you want it or not. I think it's

easy to go pretty far with the illusion

that you can control what is happening

around you. That there is some set of

decisions you can make or choices you

can make. Find the people, the partner,

the job, the success of the whatever.

They'll keep you safe and then you keep

getting older and you realize it's not

going to happen. That things are going

to keep falling apart and coming back

together and then coming apart again.

That there's no stable ground in the end

to stand on. And so you have to have

some real relationship with uncertainty,

with discomfort, with pain, with

suffering, with loss. And I've just

found children's books and work to be

maybe better than anything else

for trying to force at least me into

some more truthful relationship with

that which is not the illusion that I

can make it not happen or that you know

with enough meditation or wisdom or

anything else I won't feel it but

actually the recognition that the path

to growth and to wisdom

is letting yourself feel it. Children is

a new book out, another kind of freedom

which is on these themes and and many

others. And it created for me this

wonderful and unexpected opportunity to

interview somebody from whom I have

learned so much. It's a really beautiful

conversation. I found it really helpful.

I hope you do too. As always, my email

Ezra Kleinshow at NY Times.com.

Pame Chojan, welcome to the show.

>> Thank you.

>> It is such a pleasure to have you here.

I want to begin with something you say

in your book, Comfortable with

Uncertainty, because that book is

important to me. And you write there

that the central question is not how we

avoid uncertainty and fear, but how we

relate to discomfort.

>> Why? Well, I think if you're going to

live in this age that we live in,

discomfort is an ongoing thread for

everybody through everything.

And uh a big theme is how to get rid of

it, how to get not be feeling

uncomfortable, not to be feeling

uncertain, how to not feel insecure. And

uh so the approach that Buddhism takes

is that you there's this expression

about uh only way out is through.

>> So that's really the sort of the idea

and one of the things that I've started

saying is that to get your nervous

system used to certain things. If you

try to just go about trying to change

the outer circumstances, which of course

I applaud people that that try, but this

is more an approach of working with what

the outer circumstances trigger in you

and then the work becomes befriending or

um the it's trying to hard to find

exactly the right word, but the idea is

that uh you're not trying to get rid of,

you're trying to become intimate with

and this turns out to be completely

accurate that if you approach things and

kind of um become familiar with what it

feels like to feel insecure, let's just

start with insecure. Is that okay? Mhm.

>> Um, if you become familiar with what it

feels like to be insecure, not the story

lines particularly around insecurity,

but story lines are like triggers and

what they trigger is something physical

in your body. And so if you can contact

that and actually in working with a lot

of people it doesn't seem very hard to

contact because it's kind of like if you

say like what are you feeling in your

solar plexus? People can go right there

and then what do you say? What does it

feel like? And the there's some version

of contracted and tight is what people

usually say. So this sounds like doesn't

sound all that spiritual or anything but

actually if you can become comfortable

or let's say what would the word be?

It's not accepting exactly. It's more

like uh willing to be there fully and

completely with whatever it is you're

feeling with kind of a unconditional I

would say warmth is the word I would

use. Unconditional warmth towards

whatever you're feeling that seems to be

the way not so much that you get rid of

the feeling but that it all becomes very

workable.

>> One word you use sometimes that really

helped me is abiding.

>> Abiding. I we were talking before this

began about how I sometimes have trouble

with the verbs here surrendering and

letting go and

>> Right. Right.

>> But for me discomfort, uncertainty,

insecurity, they are very, it took time

to see this, but they are very physical.

They are a contraction in the solar

plexus.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And it took a long time to see how

reflexively I ran from that

>> and tried to make the feeling go away.

>> Absolutely right. That is what people

do. you can kind of count on it. Really

>> tell me about the the term befriending

the warmth because there there's sort of

two stages as I read you to to what

you're saying here. One is the

>> don't run from it.

>> You are going to feel uncomfortable. You

are going to have discomfort. That that

is not an eradicable part of life.

>> Right?

>> But then there's this next move. You

sometimes say smile at it, befriend it.

I wouldn't say I've quite figured that

one out. You know, and maybe I'll use an

example like imagine somebody's in a

fight with their partner.

>> Yeah.

>> They're angry, they're hurt, they're

rehearsing all the things they should

have said or all the things they're

going to say. Their chest is tight. They

can't stop thinking about it,

>> right?

>> What what does it mean to befriend that

feeling?

>> Well, first of all, it means let's let's

go through the sort of steps, you know?

First of all, you have to want to. And

then the question becomes just I think

it's your question. Well, h how do I

actually do that? So, the first thing

would be some kind of pause through

meditation. One of the things you learn

to do uh it's kind of very basic to

meditation is something that I call

letting the story line go. If you

meditate and you have an object of

meditation that you keep coming back to,

then you begin to experience all your

thoughts, storylines as something that

you can interrupt, something that you

can come back from, that you don't have

to keep following it and keep following

it, keep following it. So, it's like you

see yourself going down a rabbit hole

and you decide, no way am I going to go

down that rabbit hole. So, then what?

So, how do I not go down the rabbit

hole? And then you go to your body and

you find where in your body the pain

it's you're holding the grievance or the

sense of revenge or the sense of uh

regret that you didn't say the right

thing. You don't really have to name it,

but you ask you say go to what are you

feeling like right now? What are you

feeling? You don't not conceptually

don't say you don't have to say mad or

anything like that. What are you

feeling? And then find that feeling in

your body. So what you find is a

contraction, some kind of tightness, a

knot almost. And you can ask a person,

well, where is it? Some people will say

it's all over my body, but usually

they'll say like it's in my solar

plexus. It's in my throat, my stomach,

wherever. It doesn't really matter. But

once you're there, the attitude towards

it is not that it's something

um that needs to be eradicated, you

know, oh, let's find it and then we'll

throw it out or something like that. The

attitude more is that you send I I like

to use the word tenderness towards it.

You send warmth towards it. People do

this differently. People find their own

way to do this. If you want to

conceptualize it, you would say you send

it unconditional love. You send it

unconditional warmth, unconditional

tenderness. It's like you're not going

to give up on yourself.

>> What if you don't feel unconditional

love towards them?

>> If you don't feel unconditional love

towards it, not a problem. Then you send

then you send the warmth towards what

does it feel like to not have

unconditional love? I mean, what does

that feel like? And then what would you

say that would feel like

>> to not have unconditional love?

>> Yeah. To feel like you you you're not

you don't qualify for doing this because

you can't send unconditional love.

>> Let me try to think through how it feels

for me. I think the idea of how it would

feel to have unconditional love is so

for a feeling like that

>> yes

>> is so alien that even trying to describe

it is hard because that the the water I

swim in is wanting certain feelings to

go away.

>> Yeah. Right.

>> And

>> you're a typical human being.

>> I am a typical human being. And you

know, one thing that I have gotten

better at over time has been abiding in

those feelings and then recognizing that

they will change.

>> Exactly.

>> And that they will change more

profoundly if I let them sit there.

>> That's right.

>> But I certainly have not found

warmth for them. I've become maybe

better at attending to them. Mhm.

>> I think in some places you talk about

sometimes

noting feelings like that as a

a bell to pay attention.

And I've gotten a little bit better at

that. Like I have a like a physical

relationship to uncertainty, which when

I feel it,

I now feel that is something that I

should look at as opposed to try to get

rid of,

>> right?

>> But I have a lot more trouble when

people say

>> extend unconditional love.

What about what about just a gesture

like touching it with your hand?

>> That does help me. I do do that.

>> You know, in other words, get away from

concept and words alto together and just

put your hand there. That can be very

very powerful to just do that. And

sometimes people they just express

affection for themselves by, you know,

maybe touching the top of their head or

I don't I don't want to get too corny

with this, but some sort of sense of

being okay with yourself.

>> How do you help people learn to feel

what they're feeling in their body? It

has taken me many years of therapy and

meditation

to even realize

that I often wasn't feeling

>> what you feel

>> what was happening in the body that I

didn't have awareness of it. I was

reacting to it. It was there.

>> Right. Right.

>> I had a therapist once who was actually

one of the people who really helped me

work with this. It what she realized

about me was that the way I would talk

about something and the way I would feel

about it were very different.

>> Yeah. And she would start telling me

when I was talking about something,

she'd say, "Stop. Tell me the same

thing, but have your hand on your

stomach.

>> Tell me the same thing, but have your

hand on your heart."

>> Oh, really?

>> And it was a very powerful

>> Yeah.

>> practice because the feeling would start

to come into what I was saying.

>> Yes. Okay. So, you're saying that for

you the the physical gesture is actually

very very important in terms of

>> It certainly helped me. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I found this exactly

the same thing. And that's where I've

come to find out that if people just use

gestures that it helps a lot to sort of

soften up the situation, touching the

heart or touching where the contraction

is. Put your hand where that is and like

like uh have a sense of that hand being

friendly.

And the heart seems to be the one that

is the, you know, really gets to people.

You know, you could be on the street and

then someone for some reason they like

something you just did or something,

they'll just touch their hearts. And I I

find it's such a sweet thing, you know,

a way to communicate to people you don't

know on the street.

>> Why do you think it's so hard to feel

what we're feeling? A lot of times it's

trauma related that people uh close down

at a young age around something or

other. And so uh it's like trying to uh

open up a floodgate and maybe people are

scared for one thing, you know, to open

up that floodgate. And actually it's not

such a great idea to open up a

floodgate. it's more a good idea to sort

of like uh put a little hole in it in a

tiny hole so that the whole thing is a

gradual opening.

>> So, so let's say you're there and you

are feeling how you're feeling,

>> you know, and maybe you don't like how

you're feeling, but you're at least

there with it.

>> You have a line that I find very

evocative. You said, "I once asked the

Zen master Kobanchino Roshi

>> Kobino." Yeah.

>> How he related with fear. you said, "I

agree. I agree." Yeah. It was such a

beautiful answer. You know, it was sort

of shorthand for this whole thing that

we're talking about. I I I stress the

warmth and the friendliness because

people seem to need that a lot. But the

fundamental thing, if you're saying,

"What are we actually trying to do

here?" It's like agreeing rather than

disagreeing, accepting rather than

rejecting, staying with rather than

running away. Uh what are some other

ways we could say

>> I I mean

>> breathing into

>> allowing

>> allowing allowing is a good word. Yeah.

Allowing rather than uh disapproving or

criticizing. And the thing is uh what I

like about this approach and what seems

to be attractive to people is it doesn't

matter where you are in the process you

can make friends with that. So, so like

for instance, it might very common for

people who have low low self-esteem,

which is many many many many people that

they hear a meditation instruction and

then it's just another thing to beat

themselves up on because I could never

do that. So then if I was had an

opportunity to work closely with

someone, I would just say, "Well, then

let's just work with uh what happens in

your body when you feel like you're a

loser or you feel like you're can never

get it right or uh let's go under the

words of what is let's get at what it

feels like physically to feel like I I'm

always messing up or I'm inadequate or

there's something fundamentally

unlovable about me, you you know, so you

so somehow

um getting right to the kind of core of

a lot of the dysfunction that they might

be feeling. So getting back to the

original thing is I think we all need a

lot of help to start to agree with

what's happening with us rather than

feel that it's because it's

uncomfortable that it has to be

rejected. Everybody needs a lot of time

and willingness and intention to uh be

able to hold more discomfort, hold more

pain really. You know,

>> it took me, it is still taking me a

really long time to realize that what

I'm trying to do when I meditate

>> is not to change how I'm feeling.

>> Right? I started meditating because I

had and have a fair amount of anxiety

and stress and I started really

seriously when I was starting a company

and I was trying to feel differently

>> than I felt,

>> right?

>> And for years and years and years and

years, I was there in a practice of

trying to feel differently than I felt.

And and I do think it is a very subtle

and difficult shift and one I've only

begun to recognize needs to be made,

>> right,

>> to to this place of agreement that

you're

>> that how you feel might change, but

you're not trying to change it

>> that you're trying to like be in a space

of accepting how you feel.

>> So, uh I I believe you work with Will

Cabinson. So one of the big things about

why the stress reduction program that

his father has uh John Kabits in uh one

of the premises is you he says to people

you just have to give up the idea that

this is going to help you in any way.

You have to give up the idea that

there's like a goal here. We're just

going to be mindful of what's happening

for itself for its own. such a hard idea

to give up,

>> but he must have a lot of success doing

it, right? Because it's in all the

hospitals and everything. So, but that

is a very important part of it is you're

not trying to improve. And these are

people with severe back pains mostly

that no doctors could help. So, so all

the exercises are for themselves alone

and not to try to have get rid of the

things. I'm sure it's very hard, but uh

I think that let's just say it helps to

be introduced to the idea and people

sometimes get kind of fascinated by the

idea that there's an alternative to well

to it trying to get rid of it. Why?

Because they've spent how many years

they're alive trying to get rid of it

and it hasn't helped. So let's try

something different. Don't you think so?

>> What attracted you to this side of it? I

mean something if you go through your

book titles

>> Yeah. just that right

>> I know

>> it's like when things fall apart

comfortable with uncertainty how we live

is how we die um you know a different

kind of freedom that you know one after

another

>> welcoming the unwelcome

>> welcoming the unwelcome

>> that I know

>> there's been a real attraction in for

you

>> yeah that's true

>> in this idea that

it's going to hurt sometimes

>> yeah and and that let's just let's let's

be okay with it hurting sometimes like

Trumpete Cham trumpet my teacher he

always used to say lean into the sharp

points

>> and that was a that's a great phrase I

think you know lean into the sharp

points because it expresses what we're

trying to say here about leaning in

rather than pulling back you know so

sometimes it's just really physical you

sort of have the idea okay this is

really hurting And so uh some people

would say I so I lean into it. Uh other

people would say I stop resisting.

That's what for me that's what it is.

I've learned that anything unpleasant I

I can feel that I'm resisting. I don't

want it to happen. And then I just go

through this process which I've done so

many times now that I can actually do

it. But I go through this process of

relaxing with it. you know, say not

physically not resisting like unnoding

the stomach.

>> Walk me through that process. I mean, I

believe you have back pain.

>> I do.

>> We were talking about back pain a minute

ago, too.

>> When you're in pain, what what do you

do, right? Some some part of you must

not want to feel the pain.

>> What then happens in your

>> mind body?

>> I uh All right. So I I do, you know, I I

stand up, I stretch, I do physical

therapy, things like

>> you're not just accepting it and letting

the pain be there. You are trying to

change it too.

>> I'm I'm doing those smart things, you

know, or what the doctors recommend and

and those things are really helpful. I'm

a big PT fan around physical pain, but

the attitude is the main thing. So, I've

given up the idea that uh maybe it's all

going to go away and I'm lived more with

the idea like this is what I'm going to

be living with uh for the rest of my

life. So, that's a whole different kind

of more relaxed attitude about it. You

don't you you do do the physical therapy

and things like this but the attitude is

um you might you know me we might say

agreeing you might say making friends

with but for me the what I catch what I

catch is when I'm going like this when I

resist I I don't want I don't want and I

can feel that physically and then I lean

in and I lean in. So

>> what does lean in mean?

>> Um, okay, I'll give an example. I don't

know if it's going to answer your

question, but Chimam Trumper once gave a

talk and the topic of the talk was

collaborating with reality.

And he gave the example, this is what

what he gave the example that I was very

familiar with in living in Nova Scotia

in the wintertime

of walking in the winter when the snow

and sleet is coming in your face and

it's extremely unpleasant and and your

whole body is as if you're in the

dentist chair. You're just like tensing

up. So leaning in means you physically

stop resisting what's happening and you

you more like relax with it. You sort of

relax with it. It's like you the thing

is that the contrast is so great between

resisting and then relaxing that somehow

it's not that hard to do because it's so

so tangible this resisting thing because

I can feel everything in me is like

pushing away and that's like fruitless.

I mean it's not going to it's not going

to help at all. Whereas as when I sort

of just let it be what it is, let's just

that's another way to say it. Just let

it be what it is and stop tensing

against it, then it becomes totally

fine.

>> I think about this when I walk home with

my kids, you know, half the days of the

week I do pickup.

>> Yeah.

>> And I have a four-year-old and a

seven-year-old.

>> Yeah.

>> And we live in New York and it rains.

Like yesterday

>> when we walk home in the rain, what

happens is I'm sitting there trying to

not get wet

>> and they're like puddles

and they're trying to jump in every

puddle and if they have their rain boots

on that's great and if they don't I'm

like don't get your feet wet and you

don't get your shoes wet. But I'm often

tensed up against getting wet and I'm

going to get wet one way or the other

and they're playing in the rain. They're

I I like that. That's a great They're

collaborating with reality. That's

right. And I'm resisting reality. I

don't want to get wet. And they're like,

>> "There's so much water here. That's so

fun."

>> Uh see, it is a subtle shift and

mentally, I think. And so for the kids,

it's natural. And then somehow we lose

it, right, as we get older, it seems

like. But then you can kind of go back.

You can you can begin to be more joyful

about what's happening. I mean, I just

had this experience with the sleet and

everything and and I always used this

image. So, I was I I began to it did

feel like I was in a dance with the

storm, you know, there was something

very joyful about it. Funny. I think

that's what it was. It became sort of

funny, like I felt like I was in a New

Yorker cartoon or something. And uh but

it's but it's more like your kids with

the the puddle that becomes enjoyable

rather than a battle. So struggle is a

helpful word. I think you find yourself

struggling and and and basically you

pause and uh you find your way to not

struggle.

>> You have a line that I think is

interesting where you say when we resist

change it's called suffering.

>> And I often find Buddhist teachers make

this distinction between suffering and

pain.

>> Right.

>> And I'd love you to talk a bit about

that. Pain is you put your finger on the

burner and there's pain you pull away

that's that and there's many many

examples like I have back pain you know

or whatever it is so that's pain that's

like uh direct experience then there's

suffering which is all the story lines

that we lay on top of it and I call that

unnecessary suffering actually but

suffering in this case is uh optional

because it's based on the story lines

you're telling yourself about like I

talk to people say people are curious we

talk about back pain you know spiritual

spiritual discussions about back pain

but one of the things is um just uh

people are curious about uh how to be be

with the experience without all the

story lines because they're saying to

themselves things like uh this is going

to get worse and I'm going to be

disabled or I'm not going to be able to

do my work because of this or all sorts

of disaster scenarios which are causing

them so much suffering that that's

optional that part

>> I take this as a very important part of

I mean Buddhism generally but but your

your teaching in particular

working with this layer of resistance to

what's happening and and I I struggle

with this a tremendous amount and it's

something I'm trying to work on where

I'm in a situation that exists. It's not

a situation at this point I can change.

I have, you know, created the schedule.

I'm going to the thing I'm, you know, I

have back pain, too. I'm feeling the

back pain.

Or there's something in the future that

I'm worried about happening, but it may

not happen. I was just doing a

governor's forum in California, and I

was worried on the flight out that I was

losing my voice.

I didn't end up losing my voice, but I

worried about it a lot.

>> Right. Right.

>> And there's this like layer of

experience that for me is

resisting.

>> Yeah.

>> Trying to make it different than it is

>> when I can't.

>> And on the one hand, I think I become

more attentive to how much suffering

comes out of that. But I'm curious again

in a very sort of physical or tactical

way

how you drop that layer because for me

the impulse to try to solve every

problem or to treat even every moment

like a problem to solve or to perfect

is very deep and reflexive. Right.

>> Now would you say though is it possible

to keep it going if you don't keep

feeding it with story line? Is it

dependent on story line?

>> You when you say to keep feeding it, it

to me I the I uh am not feeding it. The

story line feeds itself. It takes an

enormous amount of mental energy for me

to not have

worried thoughts feed themselves. I

don't want to be thinking about this.

I'm not trying to do it. That's worried

thoughts do feed themselves. Absolutely.

And um part of the book the uh another

kind of freedom which is that commentary

on Trumpish's

book there is this part which may had a

big effect on me where he talks about

there's nothing wrong with in this case

it was negativity but let's just say

nothing wrong with back pain or nothing

wrong with worrying about the future.

Nothing wrong. And but the problem is

what he called negative negativity.

That's on top of worrying then there's

judgment about worrying and it gets very

it goes way down the rabbit hole right

so coming it's almost like I think in

your case like on the airplane it would

be almost like meditating getting back

to meditation where you I don't know

what you do when you meditate exactly

but do you have an object of meditation

often? Uh, no. I tend to do noting. I

sort of continuously

speak either aloud or or mentally what

I'm aware of at that moment and from

which sense. So, I'm aware of looking at

you. I'm aware of

>> hearing the sound as you sort of affirm

what I'm saying.

>> Yes. Right.

>> I'm aware of feeling my fingers touch

each other right now and just sort of

letting everything come into

>> awareness but doing nothing about it.

>> But doing nothing about it. Right. Okay.

So let me just propose um I think I

could work with noting too in in terms

of this but just in terms of more

familiar ground for me.

>> So if you what you did was uh say okay

I'm going to uh gently note or aware of

my breath going out and coming in. And

uh my intention here is to just as much

as possible stay fully present with the

breath going out and the breath coming

in. Nothing forced just natural

breathing. Okay. So then what happens is

you the worry thought is like a magnet.

It's a very seductive like the sirens

you know calling you. It keeps pulling

you off. So fine that's what happens. So

then we just keep coming back to uh

being present with the breath going in

and breath going out and then it pulls

you away again. But you're training in

noting that you're going off and then

coming back. You're training in noting

that you're going off and coming back.

So you interrupt it. I guess you could

say you just get the hang of what it

feels like to not continue with the

story line. And then you might find but

by the time you land in San Francisco or

wherever you're going that uh that uh

there's been a shift in your anxiety

level, a shift in your uh obsessive

thinking part, you know, and that you're

more ready to just go in without hope

and fear into the situation. You're in a

different place with the whole thing

because you've stayed so present with

what's going on. I I become very

interested in

and this is just my own experience with

myself but the difference between energy

of doing something and energy of just

allowing something to be there.

>> And to me a lot of the exhaustion

>> Mhm.

>> from worrying,

>> right?

>> He's actually trying to think about

like, well, what can I do about it? You

know, do I need to be uh you know,

sucking on a throat lozenge? You know,

when I go there, should I see a doctor?

and the the kind of trying to actually

solve it versus and this is true in a

lot of areas of my life versus

just it's there like the thoughts are

there I might lose my voice

>> and that I mean of course there are

things in life that we want to change

you do physical therapy for your back I

work in politics I'm trying to

>> affectuate change not just allow things

to be the way they are

>> right

>> and on the other hand the you can for me

at least

how much I've trained the energy of

trying to change things and solve

problems and act and optimize. It's made

me realize like how untrained for me and

unfamiliar actually the energy of just

letting things be.

>> I'm sure

>> I'm sure it's very unfamiliar. But uh

are you attracted to it?

>> Yeah, I wouldn't be having this

conversation if I weren't attracted to

it.

>> Uh and so do you find that you can do it

sometimes? just be

>> so is the thing I'm starting to try to

learn how to do. It's been a big shift

in my own meditation practice.

>> So I do think you know you I think

probably anxiety comes up a lot like I

was anxious about coming over here. So

uh

>> what about it made you anxious?

>> Oh coming here unknown.

>> It's so unknown.

>> You weren't comfortable with the

uncertainty.

>> Actually I didn't have a story line

particularly. Uh-huh.

>> It was just butterflies in the stomach

without I My daughter asked me, "Well,

what are you afraid of?" And I said, "I

I actually don't know. I'm just I just

having butterflies." But I wasn't having

a problem with having butterflies. I

think that's what I'm trying to get at.

It was just a automatic response. Um,

nothing wrong with it. wasn't escalating

into a big storyline or I'm going to be

a big flop or uh you know he'll ask me

and I won't be able to talk or you know

it didn't go any of those places and so

it just was I think you know we have

these just old habitual responses to

things butterflies

no big deal butterflies is what I'm

thinking in this case so in terms of the

worry that's no big deal either but

somehow it escalates and escal escalates

and escalates and that's when the real

unnecessary suffering gets strong,

right? And affects you physically and uh

so just coming back to it what it feels

like in my solar plexus or whatever uh

with a feeling of sense of humor,

warmth, uh no big deal, something um

more along those lines. You're

interrupting the tendency to escalate.

So, you're actually kind of practicing

non-resistance.

>> We've talked so much about the

relationship to discomfort.

>> Mhm.

>> What about the relationship to comfort?

>> I love it.

Well, here here's this is a really

important question. So, let's talk about

comfort as comfort zone. That's the

expression that people use. Are you

familiar with that expression? So

everybody needs some time with the

comfort zone because your nervous system

needs it. Swimming in the ocean, all

these things that the things that soothe

you need you need some soothing

listening to music that you love and all

these things. But there's no growth in

the comfort zone. growth happens where

it's more uncomfortable

and we call it challenge because it's uh

we've come up against our edge a little

bit there. And so you you want your edge

to expand. In other words, if today your

edge is the the sidewalk, then by this

time next year, you want to be able to

walk five blocks or something like that.

>> Yeah. Somebody once said to me that the

amount of growth you are capable of

is a direct correlate of the amount of

discomfort you're willing to tolerate.

>> Oh, that's right on. That person was

very wise and said that to you. That's

absolutely absolutely true. So, I guess

what we're talking about then is to the

degree that we can feel discomfort to

that degree we can grow. And grow means

uh let the natural change in evolution

happen rather than get frozen in views

and opinions that keep you stuck in the

same way for your whole life. Really?

>> Meditation has been coming in and out of

this conversation. And what is the

purpose for you of meditation? What are

you trying to practice?

>> There uh there's could be a lot of

answers to that question. I think of it

as um a a way to get to know yourself

deeply, intimately,

um fearlessly

um uh with an attitude of of

friendliness.

So a person who say meditates goes on a

meditation retreat let's say where you

do more hours and then what it

inevitably things start floating up like

maybe they think this is all about

getting calm and blissful but then when

they go on the meditation retreat a lot

of painful memories uh regrets uh um

flashbacks all all kinds of stuff comes

up. For instance, I once raised my hand

with Chimam Triumper and I said,

"Remember, you're always talking about

making friends with yourself, but I've

been meditating now for a couple of

years and I think I'm getting a lot of

ammunition and proof, but that I I am

pretty messed up person." And then he

said, "Okay, so move closer to the

feeling of me messed up." That's what he

that was his answer. One of my teachers

is called Sonia Rimpiche and he has this

expression being okay with not being

okay which I think I like that a lot

because it's very pathy. It's kind of a

fearless thing to see your habits to see

your emotional reactivity to see maybe

selfishness pride

um rage about things that you thought

you had worked through and all this kind

of stuff. So the to me making friends

with yourself is making friends with all

of that all of that unresolved and stuff

like this. So meditation it provides a

u a forum or something like this for you

to be able to see yourself very clearly

and then the instruction is to make

friends or you know to to to

agree with what you're seeing to not

reject what you're seeing. What about

for someone whose experience with

meditation, which I think is very

common, is not that they get these

fireworks of self insight,

>> right?

>> But they just realize they can't take 10

breaths without their mind burning away

from them. Yeah.

>> That's true. That's okay. Yes.

Absolutely. I was kind of jumping ahead,

I guess, a little bit in terms of what I

was saying. One of the things Trump says

in myth of freedom is he has a whole

chapter called boredom.

And the chapter is about what a

wonderful thing boredom is.

Why is it a wonderful thing? He says

because it doesn't feed the ego at all.

There's nothing about it that feeds the

ego. And so he was really encouraging

people that if you start getting bored

that is an excellent sign that your

meditation is progressing and that uh uh

sit okay sit through the hot boredom

until it becomes cool boredom. And so

hot boredom is what we're familiar with,

which is like um you want to jumpiness.

You you want to get out of there. You

want to boredom has this quality of just

wanting to bolt, you know. And cool

boredom is you just you sit there with

the feeling of boredom. No problem. And

uh I would hear these teachings on cool

boredom and honestly I had not a clue

what they were talking about. So I went

to Mexico where my parents had uh uh

retired. My father had died. My mother

liked to sit inside with all the windows

shades closed in Mexico. We're outside

of her door and the windows was like

blazing with color and action and

everything's happening and I'm young,

you know. And so I go there to be with

her and everything in me wants to be

outside there. So for the first two days

I was so bored and restless and then I

realized I came all this way to be with

with my mother. At some point I just

gave up the struggle and I was just

there with my mother. And then it was so

remarkable because I began to feel like

I was sitting in a on a stage and every

once in a while the door would open and

someone would a friend would come in or

something. They'd have this conversation

and then the door would close and then

we were in this like nothing happening

zone and I just sat there with her and

then she'd start talking and then that's

what was happening and the whole thing

became kind of fascinating.

>> Feels very similar to what you were

saying earlier about the the suffering

was coming from resistance.

>> That's right. The suffering was coming

from the resistance. And so I learned I

said, "Oh, this is cool boredom. I'm

just here with it and it's and and

there's no resistance."

I actually think time is a very

interesting dimension. Yeah. Of all of

this that

>> you know when you talk about being I

mean everybody feels uncomfortable

sometimes but really in a way what we're

talking about here what you're talking

about is being willing to

feel like that for longer without

acting. You have a line where you say

the opposite of patience is aggression.

The desire to jump and move to push

against our lives to try to fill up

space. Um, you talk about refraining as

a method of becoming a dharmic person

and and in some ways I don't understand

any of this as never acting but as

taking a longer space

>> before acting.

>> Before acting.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> And that's been a very important and

transformative

>> distinction

>> insight for me. And I'm I'd be curious

to just hear

>> more from you on on this dimension of of

time and action

>> along the lines of what I was just

saying. It would mean that you

um a lot you're very patient.

>> Well, just tell me about how you

understand patience.

>> Well, first let's start with impatience

because like might as well start where

we are, right? Uh I experience as

restless and uh like I was saying about

boredom. Uh wanting to get out of there,

wanting to move to to just get off the

hot seat sort of. And then patience

would be sitting still with that

restless energy. That's how I would

think of patience. Sitting still with

the restlessness of the energy. Just

sitting there with it, you know, like in

my mother's living room that uh that's

how I experience patience. So again,

it's uh growing your capacity to hold

discomfort.

Patience is part of it would be a

necessary uh tool, I guess you could

call it. Do you think that that as a

general capacity has as weakened and and

I'm thinking of something you wrote that

that I think about a lot. You wrote

>> refraining is very much the method of

becoming a dharmic person. It's a

quality of not grabbing for

entertainment the minute we feel

>> a slight edge of boredom coming on. It's

a practice of not immediately filling up

space just because there's a gap.

>> And we didn't used to have the ability

to fill the space of every gap.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, you were sitting in traffic

and there wasn't a lot to do. you were

in line at the supermarket and there was

nothing really to look at and now we

have the world of distraction at our

fingertips. We have, you know, AirPods

in our ears. Just the daily necessity of

sitting with boredom even has dissolved.

>> That's so true.

>> And I think it changes us.

>> It's so true. And not for the better, I

would say. you know, uh, less in touch

with

the richness of the world. So, um, you

were discussing with me earlier about

going on the subway without

without your earpods, you know, and just

sitting there and how rich an experience

it was of just being there, the sights

and sounds and what what was happening,

the drama and the just the whole

experience as being very rich. And uh

sometimes with students very often these

days I'll really encourage them to uh

one day a week or one morning a week or

take an opport time when they just go

offline

and uh and go to the grocery store

offline ride on the subway offline all

your activities but be there fully for

what's happening because you're not uh

engrossed in a movie or or on a podcast

or anything.

>> Let's not let's not get crazy here.

>> And put you out of business, Ezra. Uh

so, uh but you know how it is. You you

go on the subway or anywhere and

everybody is somewhere else. And uh so I

encourage them to be present without

their device. But, you know, I'm trying

to be realistic and just say, "Do it

this short period of time, every

Wednesday or every Wednesday morning or

something like that." And uh yeah, it's

like my granddaughter when she was still

in college and her teacher said, "No, no

devices in the room." And I said,

"Couldn't you just turn the sound off?"

She said, "No, because it vibrates." So

then, you know, so they had to leave

them outside.

>> My attention is different if I can feel

my phone in my pocket.

>> Yep. So when we do when I do

conversations, my phone is here. It's

not in my pocket right now. It's on the

floor near me, right?

>> Because my attention to you would be

different if it were in my pocket. Of

course, even knowing that the sound is

off, even know I'm not going to chug.

>> Right. Exactly. That's what she said.

And then she said, "I never realized how

I was training myself to be distracted."

that was her vocabulary in and because

it was so so different being in class

without it even with just in her pocket

as you say.

>> So

yeah, I I think everybody can do

themselves a big favor by spending some

time offline and seeing what that's like

for them. And you know, you could say,

well, that's when you get into being

bored. But you could also say Pal maybe

that's when you get into being alive

more alive because there's I mean the

subway is such a great example of

of

fascinating really totally fascinating

to just be there because of the people

if nothing else there's so much

happening from when you get on to when

you get off there is so much I mean

sometimes things you wish weren't

happening but nevertheless but

>> to to just expand that we were

uh earlier off the microphone about uh

one thing I've been trying to do for the

last month or so is just do nothing on

the subway and just

>> be aware of what's happening around me.

And it's interesting because a lot of

the times I don't really love what's

happening around me. It's a rich

experience but

>> it's a boom box. It's

>> you know somebody uh

>> like trying to grab my attention with

music I don't really want to be

listening to. It's the screeching of the

brakes. But there's just a lot going on

>> and dropping the effort of trying to

find exactly the right music or podcast

or thing on my Kindle to distract myself

in the right way and try to maintain a

kind of like a hermetic comfort. It's

easier to stop. That that's been my big

lesson from it. It's not so much that I

love every moment on the subway, but I

didn't quite notice how much energy I

was expending trying to block it all

out.

>> Do you feel more relaxed?

>> I do. Yeah.

>> I'm I do it and partly then I pick up my

kids and I'm more present with them.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Because I just spent the last 35 minutes

practicing being present.

>> Right. Right.

>> As opposed to practicing finding

somewhere my mind would rather be.

>> So it's interesting because I would call

that a form of meditation.

>> Uh that just you're just present. It's

just it's interesting because we didn't

used to have all these devices. You

know, I I grew up before television

even. So uh but now that we have the

devices it's very helpful actually to

feel the contrast you know somehow it it

it's richer

>> you have a lovely line I think it's the

a line somebody told you that meditation

is not a vacation from irritation

>> that's right that's right the first

thing I was when I first time time I

ever went for meditation instruction

that's what the woman said to me and

then I later I saw that it was from myth

of freedom that Trump chim tr said that

she was she plagiarized but anyway it

made a big impression on me because

that's that's right meditation not a

vacation from irritation it's just

another way of saying the same kind of

thing you know but I I have to say even

though I was introduced to this view or

this attitude

from the day one took me a lot of years

to really uh somehow have it penetrate

and get to me that the path of

non-resistance.

It was in there. The seed was in there,

but it wasn't that I immediately

uh uh was open to everything that was

happen.

>> Narrate that progress for for a minute

because I mean somebody listening to

this here here you are. You're a you

know a famed nun. Um

and the idea of moving from I've never

meditated to whatever you must be

experiencing seems very intimidating.

like what what how would you describe

the stages your experience of meditation

or your relationship to it have gone

through?

>> That's a difficult question to answer

because I've never actually given it a

lot of thought. But let me just go back

to remembering the first time I was

taught to meditate.

Well, yeah, sure. I I could hardly stay

with the breath for two seconds, you

know. But then that was like what uh I

was saying earlier. It was just a

revelation to see how I had no idea that

my mind was like that. And instead of

being discouraged by that because of

what my teacher at the time was telling

me and so forth, I was told just expect

that that that actually meditation is

not about getting rid of thoughts.

There's always going to be thoughts, but

you don't have to follow them for an

hour and a half, you know. Uh, and um,

so, so I would say in the beginning, uh,

my very wild mind and, um, and when I

say beginning, I don't just mean, you

know, what first month or something. I

guess for a couple of years, maybe maybe

five years. I I don't know how long. But

but of course, I kept at it and I did

some long meditation practices. We we

had these month-long meditation

practices and I did that kind of thing

and um

uh then what started to happen more was

a very important thing was I um Trump

remembers used to talk about something

he called the gap. You could call it a

stillness. You could call it a openness

uh freshness.

And again, I I didn't really know what

in the world he was talking about, but

he said, you know, it could be possible

that at the end of every breath, there's

a gap before you breathe back in again.

And he heaven sometimes gave a

meditation like just natural breathing

out and then pause like create a gap and

then come back in. So he called that the

gap and it had supposedly very profound

and but I didn't didn't have a clue

really what he was talking about. And

then I was in a meditation retreat uh um

and we had a big fan that was going all

the time. And so the hum of the fan

became just background new noise that

was always there. So I was sitting there

meditating doing my practice and the fan

is going

and all of a sudden

It went off for just a second. I said,

"That's a gap. That's what he's talking

about."

So then I understood what he meant by

gap. He meant there's all this noise and

then suddenly there's silence.

It's sort of like being in a

use the image of being in a sack or

something like that and it's dark and

then there's this little slit and you

suddenly realize oh there's there's a

whole big space out there. It's it's

sort of like that. Someone used this

example that they were in a room with

this teacher in Nepal and had his window

was covered with uh black plastic and he

said um that's like uh all think of that

as just all the discursive thoughts.

this black plastic. It's just covering

over and then you just make a pin prick

in it and then the light comes through

and that's like oh there's there's

there's a background here to this whole

thing

>> in a breath.

>> So he said that you could at the end of

every breath you could pause and there

would you could experience that gap the

gap of well in the tense of the fan it

was just the sound was going and then it

stopped. So you could say in terms of

chatter it would be chatter chatter

chatter chatter chatter

chatter chatter

chatter chatter chatter chatter chatter.

>> But you're not trying to prefer the gap.

>> You're just trying to discover that

behind all of in say if if the

discursive thoughts and emotions and

everything are foreground, there's also

a background to the whole thing.

and that that that you could connect

with at any moment.

>> So, I have a question about this, like a

pretty I I think a question I really

struggle with when I read his books,

when I read your books.

>> Yeah.

>> I feel like there's like a shifting back

and forth a little bit between

>> this instruction of there is no good,

there is no bad.

>> It is not better to have mental chatter.

It is not better to have spacious mental

quiet. It is not better to see the light

coming through the pinhole in the black

uh plastic over the chatter of the mind.

It is not better to be looking at the

the black plastic. There's this

non-dualism. Everything is totally fine

and in some ways the same because it's

all the ground of experience and also

and maybe it is better.

>> So why do we even talk about gap then?

Um because it's there I guess. I guess

because it's there. But I think I'm

asking at the underlying thing that that

is there I feel like sometimes there is

a conversation about better and worse or

that nothing is better and nothing is

worse and then sometimes something seems

to be being described that is better.

>> Yeah, you're absolutely right about

that. And uh uh well that's where sense

of humor comes in and and an ability to

like uh be okay with paradox and

ambiguity and things not always being so

neat and tidy like that. Because if you

know the basic thing that struggle and

uh and uh polarization dualism you know

pitting one thing against another trying

to get better which comes from the place

of feeling that you're not good enough

to begin with you know that as long as

you have the idea that we're moving in

the direction of

you're okay just the way you are

and that that's a Suzuki Roshi choke

Suzuki Roshi was a Zen master in San

Francisco, started the San Francisco Zen

Center and he had this expression. He

looked out at the audience of his

students and he said, "You are all

perfect just as you are and you can use

a little work

and it is sort of like that, you know."

>> And how do you understand what he meant?

>> I understand that fundamentally

we have Buddha nature. I guess you that

would be the uh kind of uh traditional

way to say it. But you could say

fundamentally

uh everybody comes from a a uh has this

potential for uh a awakening from the

sleep of confusion. Let's call it that.

You know, kind of glamorous language.

But um everybody has that potential and

uh you look out and you see you see a

room full of Buddhas. You know, you see

a room full of people that are awake but

just don't realize it. something like

that. And so you begin to say, "Okay,

I'm one of them." You know, uh, and uh,

I want to recognize more my true nature,

I guess you could say. But the thing is,

if you want to recognize the true nature

by getting rid of the confus, getting

rid of the ego, let's say, it doesn't

work. The only way to actually have the

confusion lesson is to become familiar

intimate with yourself just as you are

which is a lot of confusion and and

wildmindedness and boredom and the all

those things you know and so if you have

a view that there's nothing problematic

with any of that then you can understand

that my fundamental nature is uh one of

is basic goodness. Uh but uh I'm not

recognizing that and so the work is kind

of uncovering what's already here.

Something like that. So it it is ambigu

>> earlier in the conversation you were

talking about unconditional love.

>> Yeah.

>> And what you were saying there as I was

trying to absorb it made me think of it

that the thing that came to mind is how

I feel as a parent.

>> Yeah. Okay. That's a good example. want

my children to be any different than

they are. I want them be to I I in some

ways absolutely don't want them to be

any different than they are. I love them

just the way they are. And also I want

them to grow

and there are ways that they can grow

but it doesn't have any it doesn't come

from a desire to change them. Like I

really do. Like I really

love them as they are and I want them to

grow and you know

learn how to do more math and you know

all the things you do as a person and

put on their own pants. Um

>> tie their own shoes.

>> But so they're both there. It was funny.

It was the only it was the only

experience I could come to that that had

both of those in my head.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So it's a good one. You

could think of yourself that way, you

know, just think of yourself that way.

Does that make sense?

>> Yeah, that would be nice.

>> Yeah, you could. You used to be that

little, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh but you don't have to think of

yourself necessarily as a little kid,

but you could think of yourself as fine

just as you are. And yet at the same

time uh let's just say not wanting to

harm people with my speech, not wanting

to harm people with my actions, not

wanting to be so critical minded about

everything. So it is paradoxical but the

basic view is that there's nothing wrong

here.

>> How do you think about the relationship

between

that kind of

here we're talking about is loving and

changing but but the way I want to ask

the question is more about the

relationship between abiding and acting.

>> Mhm. We've talked about abiding in

difficult emotions and

>> right

>> and I think that a question that comes

up for people and that's come up for me

is you know you think about if your

partner treats you badly and you think

okay I you know I'm having these

difficult emotions I'm going to sit here

and I'm not going to be reactive and I'm

going to you know work with the texture

of them and and drop the story line and

touch the energy of the emotion.

>> Yeah. And yet your your therapist would

say, "Well, maybe the story here is

important. Maybe, you know, this person

is not treating you well. Maybe you're

allowing it because you don't love

yourself enough. Maybe you This is not

I'm I'm not giving an example of my own

life here. I'm I'm just using it as an

example."

But there is something about the

dropping of story lines that can become

or at least I fear it can become also a

way to accept situations that shouldn't

be accepted.

>> Yeah. Yeah. the responsibility for

change. I hear you.

>> How do you think about that?

>> Yeah.

>> Well, one I I I frequently get uh women

in abusive relationships

and I always say get out of there as

fast as you can. You know, like they

like like one woman tell stood up and

she was saying uh that she has she

described it as an abusive relationship

with her husband who for many years and

she said so I try to work with it by

just you know going to the feelings and

all of this and that. So what you're

saying there I said uh forget about all

of that just get out of the

relationship. you you need to get out of

the relationship and get some distance

from it and that's the that is the most

compassionate thing you could do for

your husband and also for yourself. So I

said you know this is not the time to

sit there and you know contact what it

feels like in the body. this is time to

get just get out, take take the kids and

go and just start exploring how you

could do that, how you practically could

do that, you know, go to your mother's

or whatever. And she actually wrote to

me later, that woman, and said that she

had followed that advice and that it and

thanked me, you know, thanked me for

some reason. She was willing to just

take my word for it. But I guess she was

probably ready. But she would have been

an example of what you're talking about

where she was just using my instructions

but staying there being beaten. You

know, it was crazy crazy situation.

>> So that's an extreme situation of

course. But so how then do you discern

>> when you should be acting when you

should be taking the story line

seriously versus when you should be

abiding, feeling, touching the energy

without the story line.

>> Yeah, that's a really good question. And

uh uh this comes up a lot with um uh

protesting injustice in various forms.

And uh so that conversation I've had

with a lot of people uh and I always say

you know I say what they already know

but then we have a discussion about it

and that is that you're not effective if

you're caught in uh strong emotions and

you're being carried away by the energy

of anger or something like this that you

just can't be effective. First of all

you're not able to communicate.

Someone's only going to hear your anger.

they're not going to hear your words and

it's there's no possibility of change.

So I I exper I first of all I say try to

experiment with ways that actually start

to communicate to the heart of the

people that you're trying to influence

for change. Try it when you're angry.

Try it when you're not angry. Like find

out for yourself, you know, that's the

only way it really lands in the body. So

I'm encouraging the people to continue

with what they're doing but not not when

they're caught up in in their clacious

that's a Tibetan word for strong

destructive emotions and then in that

process they might go to the body feel

what they're feeling get in got in touch

as a way of uh being able to then walk

through the door and have the

conversation that doesn't come from that

place and is actually curious to hear

what they have to say and is actually

open to hearing what they have to say

and isn't uh controlled by fear. It's a

more like um willingness to kind of take

a leap, I guess you could say.

>> It's interesting when you say isn't

controlled by fear. One of the things

I've experienced with some of your work

and and some of this is that

there were a lot of actions I was not

willing to take

>> because I was afraid of feeling

the discomfort

the uncertainty associated with them

>> right

>> and it was only when I became less

afraid of feeling that

>> right

>> that I could take those actions

>> right

>> there are many actions I could take to

try to avoid those feelings and I did

take them

>> it didn't work right or

>> you know it did it worked in its own

way. But but yes, it there were there

were forms of change and also I mean

even in this work like forms of

conversation that that were not on the

table.

>> What does it mean not on the table?

>> That I I just wasn't willing to sit in

the discomfort of you know uh

confronting a certain personal

situation.

>> Yeah. Right.

>> Or risking a certain outcome,

>> right?

>> Or having a certain kind of political

conversation across difference.

>> Right. because it was because I didn't

trust my own ability to hold

>> the discomfort of it,

>> right?

>> And it was, you know, and it's an

ongoing process for me certainly, but

getting more

um comfortable being uncomfortable

has opened up a wider range of space in

which I can act. There are actions I

wouldn't even really let myself think

about. that now you can

>> but that now I can because I'm not as

afraid of them.

>> You know, I think a really good way to

go about this is uh think like um okay,

where do I want to be in one year time

or how about five years? You know, like

do I want to be stuck in exactly the

same way, you know, on this day 2027

or on this day in 2027? Well, I feel

that like, okay, I'm I'm able to sit

with discomfort a little bit more than

before. In other words, it's like it's a

growth process and and I think you're

actually changing the DNA and some kind

of way like it's really fundamental

what's what's being changed. All these

studies now about the brain and how

meditation affects it and stuff. They

have some interesting uh observations

from that and one of them is that

there's grooves in the brain that we

experience as habitual patterns and that

um every time you follow the habitual

pattern in the old way the grooves are

getting deeper and every time you even

pause and consider an alternative it

opens up a new neuro neurological

pathway and uh there's an opportunity

for change in that way really at the

level of of your brain. So I found that

pretty exciting to hear hear about that

because uh it's so optimistic. So you

were saying what are what about

meditation and what it is and I was

emphasizing in this case it would be

seeing what the habits are that you're

stuck in that you keep making that grows

deeper and deeper and experimenting with

how to open up new ones. And it says

that all you have to do is even just

don't go down the rabbit hole and don't

do anything else that opens up new

>> just sit there with the feeling that is

coming up in meditation for for me. So

what's so

>> yeah exactly

>> both like intense and interesting about

meditation is just sitting there and not

doing anything with what's going on in

my head.

>> Right.

>> Which I find difficult.

>> Yeah. Right. But

>> I I want to pick up on something you

said

>> possible. Right.

>> Very possible. And the more I do it, the

better I get at it.

>> Exactly.

>> Let me as we come to a close here, ask

you about a very lovely line in one of

your teachers books. He writes, "One's

whole practice should be based on the

relationship between you and nowness."

>> Oh, I love that. Yeah.

>> And just as

>> nowness is a word I really love.

>> I I struggle a bit with now a lot. I

struggle a lot with nowness. And that

seems like such a like such a it feels

like one of those sentences that like

has a universe in it.

>> Yeah. Read it to me again. Says

>> one's whole practice whole practice

should be based on the relationship

between you and

>> nowness. Uh yeah. And another place he

says like let the thread of nowness run

through your whole life. So but you

don't like the word nowness. So it

doesn't communicate.

>> No, I do. I just I just struggle with

achieving it.

>> Oh, I see. It's a wonderful work.

>> Well, you're you are achieving it on the

subway without your devices.

>> But but I would just be curious on on

hearing your reflection because this can

all feel so abstract, but just what does

it mean to have a relationship with now?

Oh, well, it means that you Okay,

basically that you're present instead of

drawn off

and uh and that being present

itself

can tune you into

a bigger perspective on your life. It's

like that I was talking about foreground

and background. It's like uh an example

might be the difference between being

all caught up in your thoughts and going

to the window and looking at the sky

and uh you know it's like the astronauts

experiences. They're all out there and

they're having these amazing spiritual

experiences

just because they're seeing the earth

from the perspective of vast space. And

earlier astronauts had the same

experience. They say it's just this one

earth. Why can't we just all live on it

together? It seems so easy from the

perspective of infinity or like that and

then you get back down on earth and

right away all that your habitual

patterns and things click in. You're

already stuck in in in fighting, you

know, struggle and so forth. So in a way

I I guess what it means with nowness is

that you begin to have more that big

perspective

that puts everything in in perspective

and um and then you just go about your

life but all the time you know at at the

same time uh you're a little dot the

earth is a little dot and you are t

nothing in the you know really tiny tiny

in the face of this vast universe that

just expands forever and does not have

an end.

>> If you do this practice in a committed

way, I mean, you've done it for for many

decades. If what is promising is not an

end to pain. If what it's promising is

not that you'll always feel radiant joy

or equinimity,

what is it promising? What what are you

trying to achieve or or or or what what

what is achieved

amidst it?

>> Contentment.

Um being okay with how things unfold

even if even if it's disturbing.

In other words, okay with how things

unfold doesn't mean that you wouldn't

act, but it does mean that you

aren't struggling against what's

happening.

H contentment so deep because there's

you're not struggling against the

unfolding of your life. You're more like

letting it unfold and then doing things

to uh fine-tune it or uncover

uh your your uh the openness and and

vastness of your mind and and not not be

all caught up in the smallalness of

petty u grievances and criticisms and uh

likes and dislikes

and um So somehow then all of that likes

and dislikes and everything just have a

lot of room to exist and uh so there is

a sense of less and less separation

between you and your experience and that

is a very has a lot of contentment in

it. I would say I can say definitely

that I uh am deeply contented with my

life and I have a very good life and

there's not a lot of horror in it or

anything like that but uh but I do feel

it comes from not from the outer

circumstances but from uh the meditation

practice and working with my mind and

knowing that mind has so much power to

uh make you suffer or to help you stay

awake and alive to your life.

>> I think that's a lovely place to end.

Then always our final question. What are

three books you'd recommend to the

audience?

>> Yes. Right.

I recommend

uh Shambala, the sacred path of the

warrior by Choim Trish, which is an

excellent book to be reading right now

in terms of what's happening in the

world.

And I recommend uh Zen Mind, Beginner's

Mind by Suzuki Roshi,

which is uh one of the very first books

I ever read in Buddhism. Have you read

it by

>> and I recommend this book um called

Enlightened Vagabond

by uh Matthew Ricard. He collected

stories about this uh uh 19th century

eccentric Buddhist master but very

eccentric and the stories are totally

delightful and very you it's like every

story has a moral so to speak but funny

very very funny and and the man was a

fabulous character so I love those

stories and uh Matthew Ricard collect

ffected them over many many many years

hearing them from his teachers and

things. So those are the three books

that I recommend.

>> Emma Chan, thank you very much.

>> As for Klein, thank you very much.