Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> What's up, Phil? How you doing, Joe?

>> Good to see you, brother. Good to see

you.

>> This is This might be one of the coolest

things anybody's ever given me. So, you

gave me this knife.

Explain all this.

>> All right. So, I mean, there's a larger

explanatory reason behind this. My

brother and I grew up, my father died

when I was five. My brother and I grew

up doing um these things called

rendevous. Have you ever heard of them?

>> Um in what way? What is a ren?

>> So there you go. So what a rendevous is

is it's not you know you go to those

like uh what I don't even know what

they're called, but people do like

reenactments.

>> Oh, okay. Like Civil War reenactments.

>> It's not like that. So it's the closest

thing approximation to probably what it

is. You get invited to them or these

days they're easier to get to. But my

stepfather, my the guy my mother

remarried, brought us to them. All you

do is camp, but you're only allowed to

camp and no one comes to the camp or

sometimes they might have people at the

end. But while you're in the camp,

everything in the camp has to be 1840 or

prior. So there can be no modern

pertinances, nothing like a, you know,

refrigerator or nothing like that.

>> 1840. Why that year?

>> At the end of the fur trapping. At the

end of like that, that was considered

like Jeremiah Johnson time, like peak

fur trapping. Oh,

>> so there's people, you know, they dress

like either, you know, revolutionary,

like American revolutionaries or they

dress like mountain men or they dress

like Indians.

>> How'd you guys dress?

>> Mountain men. So, uh, while we're there,

you learn all kinds of stuff while

you're reenacting. Like, I learned how

to brain tan hides. I learned how to

traditionally art, do traditional

archery, stuff like that. So, anyway,

this knife was a knife I had actually

started working on with my brother a

while ago. I do more of like the brain

tanning tomahawk.

>> And when you're saying brain tanning,

you talk about using brains to tan

animal hides, right? Using animal

brains. What What does brains do? Why

does brains do?

>> It softens the leather in a natural way.

And what's cool about it is every

animal, no matter what animal you kill,

has the exact amount of brain needed in

order to tan the hide.

>> So, you don't need any additional like

people use egg yolks or mayonnaise or

something like that. All you do is you

take the brain out of the cavity, you

grind it up, you mix it into some water,

and then after you've after you've

cleaned the leather and you've scraped

it clean, you stretch it. I usually use

like a dull shovel, you stretch it over

the dull shovel, and then you soak it in

the brain water mixture and then you

just keep repeating that pattern and the

leather gets like a really nice soft um

uh feel to it.

>> What is it about the brain? Is it the

fat?

>> It breaks down the leather. Uh, I'm not

sure if it's the fatter. I haven't

gotten that deep into it, but it breaks

down the leather and just makes it feel

really soft, really nice. So, anyway,

this knife here, I started I killed that

bear. So, the jaw is made out of two um

bear jaws or out of one bear jaw split

in half.

So, um that was a bear I killed in

Canada in 2017 was my biggest black um

black bear. And uh so we split the job,

put that together. Um it's Irish linen

threading. Then that's a knife that um

my brother picked up that was from 1860.

It was totally rusted. We had to grind

it back or he had to grind it back down.

And then the sheath is uh is traditional

like you know you could the cool thing

about doing rendevous and the cool thing

about this is you could have a Delorean

and drop that in 1840 and somebody pick

it up and think it was made yesterday.

And so everything on there has been done

traditionally from the um the quilling

on the bead work is made from porcupine

quills. The backing is um uh buffalo

brain tan and then the front is beaver

hide or beaver tail, I'm sorry.

>> And then um the sides are horse and

turkey hair hanging off of it.

>> And these are bear teeth.

>> And those are bear teeth. Yep.

>> Wow.

>> From the same bear. So when I was

thinking about what I was cuz I wanted

to give you something for inviting me on

because it's still a shock to me that

you did it. Even though we've been

talking for so long, I just never

imagined a scenario where you'd want to

have me on here. So,

>> well, you're an interesting dude.

>> I thought, what could I give this guy

that, you know, money or people or

whatever couldn't get you? And so, I

thought, this is the right thing to do.

So, it went from a me project to a you

project. And, uh, my brother Aaron uh,

helped me out with it tremendously.

>> So, how did you find this knife from the

1860s?

>> Well, he found it. My brother is um,

even more esoteric and odd than I am,

believe it or not. And, uh, he collects

this kind of stuff. Um they I mean the

guy who dated it said 1860 to to 1890

they is what they figured

>> and uh and you can tell by the way that

like around the hilt and the way that

it's the the pitting on it and stuff

like that and the way that it was made

that it fits that era. I mean it could

have been somebody redid it in 1900 but

it's definitely that old the type of

steel and the way that it was worked and

the way that it is around the hilt and

on the bottom there.

>> Wow. And um so it's at least, you know,

130, 140, but most likely 160, 170.

>> It actually fits my hand perfect.

>> Yeah. So that's also something my

brother and I talked about about how

long it was going to be and we made some

educated guesses and put it all

together. So yeah, I mean, like I said,

not something you can just go pick up

somewhere, something that will, you

know, hopefully mean something. Not

saying it's pra practical, like it's not

something you'd be gutting a elk out

with, but um

>> Well, if we get attacked by zombies in

the studio, it's a good thing to have on

the desk.

>> Yeah. I mean, if you're going to make a

last stand, you know, that's a pretty

good that's a pretty good knife to make

your last stand with.

>> That's a good way to go out.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> That's awesome, man.

>> Yeah. So, the rendevous um uh we did

those from when

>> How long do they last?

>> Uh they vary from a week and then some

go up to three weeks.

>> And what do you do for food while you're

out there? Um, so inside of your lod, so

there's two types of rendevous

at most rendevous inside of your lodge,

you can have a cooler as long as it

doesn't leave the lodge. So I have like

a a 20ft tepee that I take to these

things and uh inside of my tepee, you

can have a cooler.

>> And some modern pertinances.

>> Did they have any kind of coolers in the

1800s?

>> I mean, they had ice boxes and like

steel ice boxes and that type of thing,

but nothing like we have today. um you

know stuff was getting um dug out,

buried in the ground or put into the

ground like cool areas of the ground or

digouts and they dried everything. So

pemkin would have been the you know

everyday thing to eat that's just dried.

>> So did you bring your own food or did

you have to hunt for food?

>> So you bring your own food but there are

other rendevous that are kind of invite

only and I don't even think a lot of

people who do rendevous know about these

but there's ones that I think they're

called I think I might be speaking out

of school. Somebody might send me an

email after this, but I'm going to talk

about it anyway because I never got read

the right act. They're called jured I

think they called them jured southerns

and I've only been to one of those. And

that's where everything in the camp has

to be pre-1840. And you meet down in the

parking lot, you put everything on the

back of a mule and you when I did mine

it was up in the I think it was the big

horns. So, you know, you talk to a

rancher um get everything packed up. If

you go to the back of the big horns and

everything in camp has to be pre-1840 as

close as it can get. They'll even look

at your stitching and say, "Oh, that was

sewn with a with a uh sewing machine.

You got to take that off." And it's

always these weird like eccentric

history teachers that run them. Like

guys who,

>> you know, uh teaches history at Berkeley

or something like that or other places.

They just really enjoy living like this.

And at those ones, if they're in season,

you can hunt whatever is in season.

You're hunting with traditional archery.

And it's really good for kids. Like the

internet wasn't a problem as much when I

was a kid. I was certainly into

computers. I have been since I was a

child, but you could just detach.

Everyone's running around crazy. You're

sitting around the campfire at night.

People are singing with the, you know,

songs in the guitar. You're learning how

to do things like this. You're learning

how to brain tan. You're learning how to

live traditionally. And uh it's it's a

eccentric cult kind of. It's not a cult.

It's an eccentric group of people. It's

a lot of fun. People take it very

community. People take it very

seriously. They there's there's more

advertising surrounding it now than

there used to be because num numbers are

kind of dwindling, but uh I did my last

one last year with my brother. So if you

go on my Instagram, there's a picture of

my brother, my son, and I doing I think

our second rendevous together and we're

just dressed like, you know, I've

actually got an awesome war shirt. I can

show you the picture. I've got an

awesome war shirt that a friend of mine

went to war with. His he was half Native

American. His grandfather was um Ajiway

or something, a chipwa, something like

that. And he was I don't remember what

his role was, but anyway, I went we we

deployed to Iraq together and his

grandpa made me this war shirt. Oh,

there you found it. F Jamie, he pulled

it up. That's my lodge. Um

>> how much do you enjoy a shower after you

get out of here?

>> I mean, I I as long as you um keep you

know, they have showers in camp. They've

got a showering area, a showering area

where it's just like pallets. That's the

inside of my lodge. Um, so there's a

cooler at this one. This is not a jured

rendevous. Um, and uh, so you can shower

while you're some of them, they call

them hooters. There'll be like a latrine

in a shower area in camp, but also like

some of them I don't I don't do it at

all.

>> This is wild.

>> And so there's no reenactment like

there's not like civilians walking

around.

>> It's not like Renaissance fair.

>> Yeah, exactly. It's just more like I

want to act like it's 18:40 for a couple

of weeks and not look at my phone one

time and not worry about the news. It's

amazing after a week here, you really

forget about the world and you like

don't even know you're supposed to be

stressed out about things. You're just

out there doing your thing for a couple

of weeks

>> and you just cook over open fire.

>> Everything gets done traditionally that

way. Yep.

>> And did you bring your own meat in?

>> Yeah, you bring your own meat and stuff

in a cooler. Um, and then, uh, there's

also cooking classes where they teach

you like all the recipes to do with like

a a Dutch oven, like an old cast iron

oven. And, uh, they do gambling at

nights. So, you'll walk into like a

huge, they call mares, but it's like a

huge 100 foot square lodge. There'll be

three gambling tables in there, girls in

like the low cut shirts and dealing

cards and smoking cigars and just having

an amazing time. And there are pe you go

by camp names while you're in there.

Nobody uses their real name. Well, some

people use their real name. I'd say 60%

of people don't use their real names.

>> What was your camp name?

>> This is embarrassing.

>> It should be.

>> Yeah. So, uh, I got my camp name. I got

christened with my camp name in the big

horns when I was 14 or 13 and it was

talks a lot.

>> Talks a lot.

>> Yeah. And Sue it was pronounced.

And uh,

>> just because you talk a lot or

>> when I was a kid, I talked a lot.

Actually, as an adult, I don't talk that

much unless I know you. Um, but as a kid

I would never shut up. I had really bad

ADHD. They kind of diagnosed me with

having some lowle version of Asberers.

And uh I was a rap scallion in class.

Just never shut up, never listen, never

did anything. And uh

>> those are the people that are the most

fun.

>> Well, they didn't enjoy me in high

school or in grade school. I

>> probably would have been your friend.

But uh yeah, they they called me Iota uh

and you know, we got christened and uh

it was a you know, it's a one of the

things we're kind of missing in culture

today or something that I'm trying to

reinvigorate, especially with my son and

with other you know, young men that I

run into is kind of like coming of age

rights.

>> Yeah.

>> Something to say you're a man and I'm

going to start treating like a man from

this moment forward. Like, you know,

what does that There should be structure

to that. you know, we we're tribal and

um it's important to me. So, uh

>> I think that is really something that's

missing from society. I think that it I

used to think it was silly when I was

young and then as I got older I

realized, well, I went through that. I

became a black belt and I started

fighting

>> and you had a group of men telling you

you're at this level, we're going to

treat you like that and if you fall from

grace, we're going to remind you right

away.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh we we just don't do that with

young men. And we have a society now

where young men act like young men till

they're 45 or 50 or 60

>> and sometimes never stop.

>> Yeah. And um you know women nature

imposes itself on women. They become

fertile. They're able to have babies and

uh and uh they got to seek security or

find a husband or a really good job that

will supplement whatever a husband would

provide and they got to start acting

like a woman. Whereas men can sit in a

basement, you know, and it becomes very

dangerous.

>> Especially men that never have children.

Yeah. And they they're perpetual

children.

>> Yeah. And if you don't impose nature on

yourself by undergoing those types of

rights and understanding what it means

to become a man, nature will impose

itself on you by either a you're never

going to have children and therefore

you're dead forever or b it will kill

you because you're fat and in your mom's

basement, you get diabetes and the foot

chopped off and you're 35. And you know,

we just don't tell men. We don't have a

the military did it for me. I had really

put off uh responsibility or uh seeking

meaning or any of those things until I

was in the military. And like I said, my

father died when I was five. So I really

had no central male authority until I

was about 13 or 14 when I met this guy

Steve. Um and uh he kind of initiated

some of those rights for me and and held

me to account. But it was really the

military which was a turning point for

me where um I there was a standard and I

was expected to hold it. I I think

there's a reason why most ancient

cultures and a lot of ancient religions

have these rights of passages where you

are like now officially officially a

man.

>> Yeah.

>> Officially, you know, you're

responsible. You you are you have to

think of yourself as a different thing

now. Whereas if you leave it up to your

own decision, men sort of dwindle into

this perpetual state of childhood.

>> Yep. And it's not about you anymore.

it's about other people like that that

for me having children I've got four

kids

>> um really you know the military was kind

of the first inkling of responsibility

but then having children and realizing

this isn't about me at all and I need to

be willing to break my back for these

people who depend on me um

>> this weird primal feeling that you know

you're responsible for these like very

vulnerable little people

>> that you love more than life itself. It

just changes everything. It just kicks

you into gear. But for some people it

doesn't, you know, some people that are

so stuck in that perpetual childhood

thing, they just wind up deciding it's

too much of a drag and they get

divorced.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and then they [ __ ] up the

kids.

>> Yeah. Uh God, we have so many rabbit

holes we could go down on this, but I

mean it it was um

>> you know, growing up in the 80s and the

early 90s, it was really like a divorce

culture. Mhm.

>> And I obviously understand that if

you're in a bad relationship or an

abusive relationship or you know there's

there certainly there's a threshold

where marriage should dissolve. No

question.

>> But I kind of feel like it our the

central thrust of a lot of culture at

that time was about like divorce or not

getting married or you know discovering

yourself and that type of thing which in

some ways is good. There's goodness

there. But when it becomes a central

thrust or a central narrative and

divorce becomes very easy or it's

happening everywhere it's normalized and

it's normalized it's super destructive.

Children are the ones who suffer the

most on it and I think the data is clear

on that. M

>> um when you look at you know single

parent homes or no parent homes or being

raised you know without a an authority

>> or an abusive step person

>> or an abusive and that is you know when

you look up the stats on that like

remarage and having a new family like

that

>> that becomes the single most likely

vector of abuse in a child young child's

life is that new person right because

now they're raising someone else's kid

or whatever

>> um

>> I mean it's a that's in every old movie

the evil stepmother

>> you know.

>> Yeah. or evil stepfather, but in the old

movies, it's always the stepmother that

abuses the girl,

>> you know.

>> Yes. And and and so, you know, I kind of

uh I kind of resented that part of that

time, that culture was um I shouldn't

say when I was a child, I should say as

I got older, cuz I was in a single mom

home. And uh the guy that my mother

remarried right after my father died was

abusive. And um you know, he really got

hard on my younger brother. And you

know, my mother moved us out almost

immediately. But uh when I reexamined

that time, it really was uh you know, I

don't know how to describe it, but you

know, there are no rules when it comes

to relationships and family and every

family is special in particular in its

own way and they all need to be

venerated. And there's of course some

truth to that. We shouldn't deride

someone because they come from a broken

family, but we shouldn't elevate it like

it's at the same level as a unified

family. Um, and and that's a tricky line

to to walk, but also the people who were

making those movies and that culture

came from the 50s and 60s where divorce

was just not in the cards. And so that

was, you know, Hook's law. As you bend

any object, it wants to return back to

its natural state. And Hook's law kind

of played there where nobody could get

divorced in the 40s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and

60s. Then you had the baby boomers who

kind of culturally said, you know,

actually there's it's not as bad as we

think. But then it overcorrected and

then it became kind of part of that

cultural zeitgeist.

>> And that's kind of what humans do,

right? We always overcorrect.

>> Yeah, we do.

>> Yeah. We go in one direction until we

realize it's destructive and then we

overcorrect until we realize that's

destructive.

>> Yeah.

>> This episode is brought to you by Ketone

IQ. The demands on my time, energy, and

focus are immense. So, when I need my

brain to lock in for hours and hours and

fire at its fastest, most alert state,

I'm taking Ketone IQ. It's an energy

shot powered by this little miracle

molecule that your body already

naturally makes. And your brain

especially loves ketones. I've been

talking about ketones for over a decade,

and this company's finally figured out

how to put them in a bottle. When I take

Ketone IQ, I drop right into a state of

laser-like focus and sustained mental

clarity. Whether I'm podcasting,

training in the gym, or just want to

show up locked in when it matters, the

difference is night and day with Ketone

IQ. Visit ketone.com/rogan

for 30% off your subscription order. Or

find Ketone IQ at Target stores

nationwide in the protein and

electrolyte aisle. and get your first

shot free. Plus, they have a 60-day

money back guarantee. That's how

confident they are that you're going to

love the increased focus you get from

Ketone IQ.

>> And I would say that's the and not this

isn't a political thing. This is just

the reality of it. That's mostly what

makes me conservative in nature is I

agree systems need to change, but they

need to change slowly and pragmatically.

So we because you know any social um any

social scientist worth their salt will

know a social experiment almost never

has the outcome that we thought it was

going to have. In other words, we

thought doing something to society would

form society this way, but it almost has

the the inverse, the antiattern like we

talked about before and almost ends up

propagating itself. And so that makes me

I'm I'm still a proponent for change,

but it should be slow and and thought

out and and done in pockets first.

>> Yeah.

>> Kind of, you know, federalism. Let's do

little changes here. Let's let

California be crazy for a while and see

how that works out for them.

>> But let's not nationalize the craziness.

Let's learn from what they learn there.

And there there will be goodness, you

know, hopes that make great coffee and

cool art. and let's take those parts,

but how about the rampant homeless?

Let's find out what caused that and and

and solve for that. And and you know,

that was kind of the founders intent

with federalism. They're really

federalist minded, stateminded. And

there's, you know, even for that being

as 250 years ago, there's a profound

amount of profoundity in that like let's

change things slowly and let social

experiments take place and adopt the

best parts of those things and then

integrate them into the culture overall

as we move along. But, you know, let's

not throw the baby out with the bath

water.

>> Yeah. I think in this country, one of

the primary problems that people have is

a profound lack of respect for

discipline and how important discipline

is for your life. Yeah.

>> And discipline is associated with

conservatism.

>> And because of that, like a lot of

people think that I'm

>> I don't think I'm anything. I I think I

I have politically or ideologically, I

have a lot of everything in me. I don't

think I identify with one side or

another. But if one thing that I agree

with conservative people on,

conservative people lend more towards

the importance of discipline, hard work,

discipline, don't complain, get things

done. Re deal with the hand that you've

been dealt with and just sort it out and

get to work. Don't don't cry. Don't look

for other people to save you. They're

not going to.

>> And this is not something that's

celebrated in society. It's thought of

as a cruelty that if you you say that

you need discipline that well you're

you're not treating these people that

are victims of circumstance with the

proper respect or with the proper

empathy. And I think a certain amount of

empathy is probably not so good for you

at a certain point in time. There comes

a point in time where you're letting

people wallow in their [ __ ] and just

make excuses for why they're not getting

anything done. And in that sense, I

think California is that that is a giant

part of what's wrong with California.

what's wrong with California when it

comes to crime, what's wrong with

California, you know, their the way they

address crime and the way they address

homelessness and all these issues that

they have. They don't put their foot

down. At a certain point in time, you

got to realize like what Godad calls

suicidal empathy. Uh society can suffer

from suicidal empathy. And at a certain

point in time, you got to enforce rules

and you got to make it so that people

have to get their [ __ ] together.

>> Yeah. And that suicidal empathy becomes

a way for the person who's imposing it

on someone else to feel good about

themselves, which makes it even trickier

and even more um insidious because

they're they're they're feeling good

from the the weaponization of other

people's

um lot in life.

>> Mhm.

>> And and and the the thing about that is

none of the rules that you're going to

impose, especially as a legislator or as

somebody in a think tank, you'll never

feel the repercussions of them. You'll

never have to actually deal with it

dayto-day. You're just imposing it on

someone else and saying, "I better

understand the structure of reality and

the fabric of the world, and you can't

help but be this way. It's the system

that's done this to you. So, let me give

you pittance that I'm going to take from

someone else."

>> Mhm.

>> And and that makes me benevolent. I get

to feel good about that. That's a giant

part of government for sure. That's a

giant part of what's the problem with

like liberal governments. Liberal

governments should they should get paid

based on whether or not the city does

better or worse financially than when

they were in office. If their policies

lead to uh greater domestic production

of goods and services and you know GDP

does better and everything does better

then you should get paid more. If more

real estate sales, more people are

making more money, medium medium income

raises, less homeless people, you should

get paid more. And you should get paid

less if homelessness goes up. If crime

goes up, if there's more destruction, if

there's more, you know, assaults and

home invasions, you should get paid

less. You're you're doing a shitty job.

And if you did that, I think they would

impose laws that made it safer and

healthier and made it for, you know,

better for society.

>> Yeah. and then they would just

inevitably change the ways that we track

and measure those things and pay

themselves more.

>> Well, they shouldn't have the

opportunity to do that. Then you need

some sort of an oversight that's you're

right though. You're right to be cynical

because that's what they do about

everything.

>> Someone was explaining to me yesterday

>> that

>> one of the problems with um cleaning up

fraud is that fraud is responsible for a

giant percentage of GDP. And if you you

have hundreds of billions of dollars of

fraud in this country and you eliminated

that, you actually lower GDP because you

you actually lower the amount of money

that's in circulation.

>> That's interesting. I've never thought

about that before. He was explaining to

me and I was like, "Oh my god, that is

crazy that a giant percentage of our GDP

is fraud." And if that was somehow or

another eliminated, it mean like one of

the things that they do when they raise

jobs, like they they increase GDP. We've

we've added, you know, 200,000 jobs to

the market. Well, what are those jobs?

Like what are those jobs? Are these

government jobs? Cuz the government is a

giant percentage of our GDP. Government

jobs. You know, it's it's way bigger

than it should be.

>> Way bigger. And those jobs, a lot of

them are [ __ ] and waste. A lot of

them.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and that was some of the stuff

that was uncovered during Doge, you

know, the limited amount of access that

Doge had to it. Just just the beginning

of it where you got to see the curtain

pulled back and got to see exposure of

so many of these fraudulent supposedly

charitable organizations that were

really just money laundering. They're

really just funneling money into these

people's hands like like the homeless

thing in California.

>> Oh my goodness.

>> It's a bonkers situation where they've

spent $ 24 billion. They cannot track

it. They've tried to audit it. The the

government has vetoed these audits and

they have no idea where that $ 24

billion went and yet homelessness went

up.

>> Yeah. But you've got a giant machine

that is this homeless establishment,

this homeless industrial complex that is

being funneled money into that and that

actually aids the GDP which is kind of

crazy.

>> Yeah. I mean it it it was one of the

things my last three years in the

military um I was advising a colonel and

a twoar general and they were in charge

of all of the uh offensive cyber

development

ethical hacking offensive cyber

development. I was their technical

adviser

and one of the things I kind of learned

about government at that point was

um these systems have their own

incentive and the incentive is not the

output of their purported mission. The

incentive is the growing of the

organization and the execution of

budget. So while they're in there, you

know, I've never seen a field grade

officer get dressed down more than when

he didn't spend all of the money that he

was budgeted for for that year.

>> Isn't that crazy?

>> He would go to the Pentagon and they'd

be like, "Well, you didn't execute $300

million of OKCO of overseas contingent

operations funds here." And they would

dress them down for an hour. And what

people don't understand is if you don't

spend that money, your budget for the

next year will be lower because there's

no need to have a higher budget

>> instead of tying it to mission to say

did you achieve your mission objectives?

>> We started the year agreeing agreeing

from the president's framework, the NIP

if the national intelligence priority

framework. We wanted to achieve these

effects. What you would want to hear is

we achieved them and we saved 25%.

>> But instead it's we achieved them but we

didn't execute all of this money. Well,

you're fired. And I literally have seen

that happen. I've literally seen that

happen. And and that kind of

>> what a sick society.

>> Yeah. And that kind of shifted my

thinking in that um these systems have

their own incentive to exist and to grow

because those guys that were holding

that general officer or that '06's that

colonel's feet to the fire, they also

have an incentive to because they were

part of that trickle down and they've

got bureaucracy that surrounds them. And

if they didn't execute it, that means

they didn't execute it. And that means

they have to go to whomever. This was

during the Biden administration. I

believe Hegathth for everything we could

say has actually tightened this up quite

a bit and he's kind of rehauled the way

development works, especially on the

offensive cyber side. But they have

bureaucracies and the incentive of the

bureaucracy is to make sure that we grow

and that's it. And then then you think

about that for a minute and you're like,

well, it's no longer a question why we

have $30 trillion of of debt. 39

>> 39 trillion and then what like 150

trillion of unfunded liability. In other

words, we've promised people money for

the next 30 years. And and it's debt

that, you know, I don't see how we'll

ever escape that debt. Um and it's the

thing about it is is and and I don't

want to be pigeonholed because I'm

actually quite liberal when it comes to

my politics are are like yours in that

I'm a kind of a man without a home, but

they also change at different levels of

analysis. I'm very liberal with my

family and I'm very like communist. I

protect them. I give them everything

they need. I'm trying to give them

structure. And even in my community,

I'll help someone out out of pocket or

do something for them that's a strain on

my time or might hurt something else

because there are really no solutions.

There's just trade-offs.

>> That's supportive for the community

though. That's how people are supposed

to do charity.

>> And and I'm also very non-judgmental in

someone how they care. I don't care what

they do in their house. I don't care if

it's a Roman orgy on the weekends. Like,

be a predictable, productive person

Monday through Friday and go do your

Roman orgy on the on the weekend. I

don't care. I won't judge you. Like, I

don't I really have enough crap in my

own life.

>> As long as someone's not getting hurt.

>> Yeah. As long as no one's getting hurt,

consenting adults. Like, I I have enough

problems and I screw up enough and

people have have there's a laundry list

of things that people could say about me

how I've screwed up in my life.

>> But then as I graduate and get higher

and higher, more conservatism

takes place. Um, and and and that's a

result of just, you know, having an

engineering mindset when I'm looking at

life and understanding that it's just

not Republican or Democrat or leftist or

rightist or or liberal or or

classicalally liberal. All of these

monikers

don't work for me because they break

down at at some level of analysis,

>> right? And I think that's the problem. I

think the problem is these ideologies

that people subscribe to where you have

a predetermined pattern of thinking that

you're supposed to adopt.

>> Yes,

>> you're supposed to adopt these opinions

and some of them just don't fit. And

that's how people get pigeon that's like

on people on the left, they get

pigeonholed into weird stuff that you

can't really really justify like trans

women in sports. Like what the [ __ ] are

you doing? You know, like we're we're

you know, we're being inclusive. Like

no, you're not.

>> We're loving the borders of Ukraine

while hating our own border.

>> Yeah. [ __ ] bonkers. Yeah. It's

there's so many crazy things. There's so

many crazy things that people just adopt

that don't make any sense. And you know,

when you subscribe to an ideology, the

problem is if like if you you define

yourself as this person, I am this. I am

a hardcore right-wing blah blah,

whatever it is, you you immediately

close the door to all the very

productive and interesting things that

the other side thinks.

>> Yeah. And you're also making yourself

into a tool of propaganda. Mhm.

>> Cuz if I if someone if I meet someone

and they just say, "I'm this."

>> It's like, "Well, I could reasonably

predict everything that's going to come

out of your mouth."

>> Yeah.

>> That's not entertaining. I don't want to

have a conversation with that person. I

can't seek to learn from them cuz I

could just pick up the Communist

Manifesto or Minecom and have a pretty

good understanding of who I'm dealing

with and therefore a conversation is not

>> is not relevant. It's not needed.

>> A lot of people are afraid of social

ostracization, too. So they're they're

afraid of straying outside of the

narrative, whatever side they're

supposed to be on. And you know, some

groups are really good at making you

feel like dog [ __ ] if you don't agree

entirely with even things that don't

even make any sense. And so that's why

people go along with stuff that's

illogical, like open borders or whatever

it is.

>> Yeah.

>> They go along with things that's not in

their best interest because they're

scared. They're scared of being

ostracized. They're scared of being cast

out of the kingdom. there's, you know,

they're scared of being excommunicated.

>> Yeah. I dealt with a lot of people first

when I retired from the military and

then more recently um leading up to the

last election where you know I was

entertaining the deal of doing some work

for government um believe it or not and

cuz I'm as we talk more you'll figure

out I'm pretty anti-

institutions. I'm I'm really uh against

those types of things. But I really

felt, if you would have asked me three

years ago how I felt about the Trump

election and all of that stuff, I was

very excited because he was saying a lot

of things that I wanted someone to say.

Trump fits a pattern and this is what

people I think kind of lack when they

my whole life is built around pattern

analysis. I really enjoy patterns and

exum exuming and ex and looking into

patterns. And there's a pattern of like

a

there's you'll laugh when I say this

first part of the pattern, but then I'll

I'll I'll make it make more sense later,

but he fits the pattern. Well, first

he's a jonian and and and in in that

he's a pragmatic person the way that he

governs, which I liked, or at least I

didn't, you know, there's some things

he's done recently that I don't enjoy.

And um but he's also a an outsider or or

a savior type

Allah, you know, I don't remember the

movie, but The Magnificent Seven back in

the day. I don't remember the actor's

name. There's this group of, you know,

there's this western town, everything's

going to [ __ ] These seven guys walk in.

I think Chris Pratt remade it with

Denzel Washington or someone else. Oh,

really?

>> I think so. I I can't remember. But

there's an old one that I used to watch

from my grandpa.

>> God, there's too many movies. And uh

there's this pattern where you wouldn't

invite these guys to a dinner party. You

wouldn't want them in church on Sunday.

But when a system is so corrupt and so

horrible, you have to rely on these

types of people to come in and be a

check to the system. But then also, you

don't want them to stick around when the

system is reset. So there's a scene in

the movie where he says, uh, you know,

man, these the se these seven guys are

talking. They said, man, these people

must have really wanted us. Like it's

crazy. They must be happy we're here.

And I think it's Gary Cooper or someone

or one of these guys says looks at him

and says they're going to be even

happier when we leave. And Trump kind of

fits that narrative. Wolverine from the

X-Men would be another one who fits this

narrative. Like is he going to be at the

X-Men Christmas party? No. Right. Is he

trying to hit on Scott Gray's wife,

Cyclops? I'm a comic nerd, so I'm sorry.

Is he trying to hit on is he trying to

sleep with Cyclops's wife? Yes. Uh did

he chop a guy's head off and throw it at

a car? Yes. But we're about to go face

Galactis and we're going to need him.

And so we have to put up with all of

this other stuff because we understand

that when the system is corrupt at every

level, you need someone who's outside of

the system to come in and set the system

right. It's a western uh um pattern as

well. Other people who fit this would be

like Patton, right? Married his cousin,

>> slap soldiers who did really his cousin.

>> Yeah, I think it's his third cousin.

>> Uh

>> how many cousins removed it doesn't

become okay? I don't know.

>> Is it third, fourth?

>> If there's blood,

>> have you never met them?

>> I'm Icelandic, so I really can't say

anything, right? They literally have

apps in Iceland. Like my grandparents

are and my great-grandparents are all

from Iceland. My my they settled in

Manitoba, Gimly Manitoba, which is this

Icelandic community. And they literally

have apps in Iceland to make sure you're

not dating your cousin. So, you know,

you know, less

>> such a small community,

>> less than a million people all in one

island, you know, it's

>> so you're trying to prevent that stuff.

But anyway, um patent. Yeah. uh slap

soldiers who had tuberculosis. One of

them probably had cell shell shock. It

got in the newspaper. They wanted his

head. And thankfully the generals were

like, "No, he's the guy that we need for

the moment." Right? He he had the ivory

pistols and he dressed like not like a

general. He didn't talk like a general.

He wasn't like a um Eisenhower where he

had the the veneer of a general, but we

knew he was the only guy we could have

at the Battle of the Bulge. like the

Germans talked about him like he was

already a mythic legend in his own in

his lifetime. Um, but the p part of this

pattern that people should understand or

when they examine this pattern is it

never ends well for these anti-heroes.

They're always killed and they're always

killed or defamed in the final analysis.

So when the Magnificent 7 come in,

they'll go to another town and all get

killed. When Patton retired, he died in

some weird jeep accident. Um, you know,

Wolverine, he's the only guy left uh on

this desolate like world where the

Hulk's in charge and it's a horrible

existence. Uh, Pat or not Patton, um,

Petraeus is another one. I I you know, I

briefed Petraeus. I worked for not for

him, but for people who worked for him

in in Iraq and um, he was the guy that

got us through with the surge. But, um,

he he was really a weird guy when you

would talk to him. like you you knew

that he knew something you didn't and

that he was seeing things that you

weren't. But even for myself as being

like a chief warrant officer at that

time, a low-level technician, he would

ask questions like he got it. He didn't

act like other generals. Like other

generals would have their three things

they want to talk about, then they'd

want to get out of dodge. He would ask

questions that really had implications

and and and he is another one of these

outsiders who came in to write a system

that was not working visav Iraq in 2006.

And then what happens to him when he

leaves? He they put him in charge of the

CIA. They knew he had been screwing

around with this woman and they're like,

"Okay, we he served his function. Now he

needs to get out of dodge." And then he

now he's, you know, uh got tried for all

these things and sleeping with someone

while he wasn't married. And you know,

there's it's not a ceremonious end for

these types. I saw And

>> is that really what happened to

Petraeus? That's how he ended.

>> Yeah. He was sleeping with some girl

that was writing his book or something

along those lines.

>> That's it.

>> Uh Well, I'm not saying yeah, I'm not

saying that's the end of him. All I'm

saying is that's history will remember

the pattern is ending unfavorably.

>> You know what I'm saying?

>> And so when I examine Trump, I I I said,

"Yeah, I don't like what he says. I

wouldn't want him around my daughters. I

don't want wouldn't want him at a dinner

party." Um, but he seems to be saying

these things like he's going to reset

this system. you know, I think it was

Chappelle was on your show or another

show or someone like that where he

talked about Hillary saying uh, you

know, something about the tax loopholes

or whatever and he just hit right back

at her and said, "Well, you the people

who are funding your campaign take

advantage of those same loopholes and if

they're there, I'm going to take

advantage of them. I wouldn't be a

pragmatist if I didn't." When he started

saying stuff like that, it seemed to me

like he was going to upend this system.

Uh, the jury's out on that because I

don't know how I feel these days. We can

get into that if you need to, if we want

to, but um uh he's an outsider

personality and I thought he was going

to really reset the system and and there

are, you know, good things that are

happening. You know, if I were to grade

him, I would probably give him a C+ or a

B minus. Um he's certainly better than,

you know, what was happening under

Biden. Um I was still in the military

when Biden was in charge and it was

awful to say the least. Um you know,

>> what were the problems?

>> Oh my goodness. um books that general

officers were being told to read and

that I as an adviser were being told to

read, books like White Rage, like

understanding why your problem uh you as

a white man are a problem in the modern

day military because um this whole

thing's built on systemic racism. You

have inbuilt implicit bias that you

can't escape even if you wanted to or

you recognized it.

>> Is woke politics. Yeah, it was woke

politics and and it was um and it was uh

you know I would sit there and say you

know all of the friends all the people

that I know who have died during this

war not all of them but 80% of them and

the numbers bear this out when you look

at them they're all white guys from the

middle of the country who were on their

farms or you know not all of them 80% of

them I think the numbers bear out about

80% of them were these guys from the

Midwest or these places where they

didn't really have a lot going and they

went off to fight a war that we probably

shouldn't have

fight fighting in the first place,

especially in Iraq, and they died for

their cause. And uh and now you're

saying that those people who make up the

majority of the combat deaths are

somehow part of this problem and that

other people aren't benefiting from it.

Um I don't believe race to me is

disgusting. Even to talk about someone's

race, even, you know, on both sides of

the spectrum when they were, you know,

electing that Supreme Court justice, I

can't remember her name right now off

the top of my head just cuz I'm a little

nervous still. um she was black and they

were talking brown Jackson.

>> Yeah. They were talking about how it's

historic because she's black and Biden

had said he's going to hire a black

woman to do this job.

>> If I had worked my whole life to do

something, but now I'm only being

elevated to this next position because

of my gender and the color of my skin,

>> I would turn that job down so fast

because that's not what I want to be

known for. These are immutable

characteristics that I'm not in control

of. I wasn't I didn't choose to be born

white or with blue eyes. I didn't choose

to be born in a trailer park in the

middle of nowhere without a dad at five.

I didn't choose any of those things. I

don't see how I benefit from these

things at the individual level. And you

know, the indiv individual level of

analysis for me is really the only way

to evaluate someone for their pluses and

their minuses. And anything beyond that

to me is discriminatory on its face.

>> Of course, it's just a great way to

control people because you pit people

against each other that way. And it's

it's just an awesome way that they can

stay in control and make everybody walk

on eggshells and think that, you know,

they've victimized people in order to

get to their position and they have to

be shameful of who they are that they

had no control over.

>> It also gives people an easy rubric to

judge other people.

>> Yeah.

>> Because nothing's easy really. And it

gives some like white guy bad.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, black guy good, Chinese guy,

as long as he's not applying to the

college I want to get into, he's good,

>> right? Um, and and it gives people

people want easy answers really at the

end of the day. They want to be told the

easy rubric to navigate life because

really none of it's easy and it requires

discipline like you said before um and

thought and and and so it was that stuff

in the military. I remember getting told

in an equal opportunity briefing we were

getting um it doesn't matter what you

meant when you said what you were

saying. It only matters what the person

felt when you said it.

>> They'd said that in a military briefing.

>> This is a military equal opportunity

briefing. So, and the example they gave

was if a woman walks into the like we

worked with a lot of civilians at this

um at this uh military organization

where we're developing these um uh

offensive cyber capabilities. A lot of

civilians in there. And uh so if you

know woman X walks in today and she's

got a dress on and the thought in your

head is I'd like to get my wife that

dress or something like it or find out

where she bought it and you just say

that's a nice dress. Anyway, here's the

TPS reports. If she heard

something sexual or didn't like the

connotation or whatever, there's going

to be an investigation. You're going to

be pulled out of that office. This is

all going to happen despite what you

meant. So the idea probably was good. We

want to prevent sexual harassment inside

of the office. Um,

>> but it was weaponized.

>> But but it was weaponized and it was

carried out in a way where it's only

about how people feel and not what a

reasonable person standard would be in a

particular situation. And from the time

I joined the military until that time,

we had been at war. My entire time in

the military, we were at war. Um, I

deployed throughout my career. And I I

wouldn't say that I was a war horse. I

was not a long tabber. I was not a cool

guy kicking indoors. It was my job with

the as the guy with, you know, tape over

his glasses to point out the door for

someone else and say bad guys in there.

Um, so I was not, you know, a super

badass in that regard. I was a nerd for

super badasses and um, but we also all

engaged in gallows humor and we would,

you know, the jokes and stuff. Even

someone, even someone who had recently

died, we would make a joke about. It's

because you have this tremendous

uh pressure and comedy is the relief

valve for that in a lot of ways. Yeah,

of course. and but then someone would

overhear that joke or something and now

you're looking down the barrel of a 156

which is a military investigation

and all of these things that could

permanently impact your life in a way

and give you a scarlet letter to where

you could never be employed again or do

anything ever again because you were

simply trying to relieve some pressure

or you were trying to find what out

where to buy your wife at the next dress

and now your life's being ruined and I

know guys who suffered under that sword

like I wouldn't name them but I know

guys who you know their career met a

terminal end because of a dumb joke or

something. It's like you can't be

expected to go out and shoot people in

the face and then be sensitive to

someone's feelings an hour later,

>> right?

>> It's just it doesn't it does not work.

Now, should you talk to that guy and

say, "Hey, you know, you made woman X

feel so be more cognizant of that

whenever you're around her in the

future."

>> Well, you should also have a rational

discussion with the woman. Said, "What

did he ask you?"

>> He said, "Where did you get that dress?

It's very lovely. I'd like to get one

for my wife. Why were you upset at that?

Like, does this is this rational? Like,

how you can't be in an office if you're

that sensitive? Like, it's one thing if

the guy said, "I'd like to get you out

of that dress." Well, now we're now in a

different world.

>> 100%. 100%.

>> Right.

>> But if someone says, "You look great.

>> You know, have you lost weight? You look

fantastic." That's the that's a

compliment.

>> And if someone gets upset, I felt

sexually objectified. I felt harassed.

Like, okay, he just said you look great.

>> Yeah,

>> that's it. It's not you look great. I'd

like to get you naked. Now we've crossed

the Rubicon. Right now we're into

>> for sure. For sure.

>> But just you look great or I like your

dress.

>> That's like if you said that to a man

like, "Hey, great suit." And he's like,

"I need to file a complaint."

>> Yeah.

>> I need to file a complaint.

>> Yeah. You've trimmed up, Joe. You're

looking

>> great, Bill. Like, oh my god, I'm being

harassed. I need to like complaint.

>> That would have worked during the Biden

administration.

>> That is [ __ ] crazy. that would have

worked.

>> That's so crazy.

>> And the other thing that they were doing

in this briefing, which is where I kind

of, you know, the last couple years of

my military career, I got in trouble a

couple of times, or I should say called

down. I was a senior C. I was a CW4. I

was one rank from the top. I was

advising two star generals, colonels,

um, on very important matters. I wasn't

high. I was a I wasn't high in the in

the dominance hierarchy, but I was

adjacent to people who were as an

adviser. and um uh the the amount of in

this briefing in particular um they had

gotten into uh you know it's bad that

there are so many white people uh this

I'm doing high points here but we need

more diversity. I was part of a accepted

career program that they were starting

to call like the old white boys network

because most of the people so the

requirements for for this network were

you had to speak a couple languages, you

needed an engineering degree or some

kind of demonstrated engineering

background. Uh you had to have deployed

um they wanted you to speak the language

very well. They wanted you to be able to

go through these engineering courses,

these other things.

And and what happens naturally is you

now need people who are interested in

engineering. All right? So you've got

somebody who's maybe more constrained in

their thinking. You need somebody who

speaks languages. Well, now they also

need to be kind of um you know speak

French, speak Russian, whatever it was.

So they had to have studied or lived in

an area and done this. And they need to

be able to go through these crazy

tactical and strateg strategic types of

courses. By virtue of those things,

you're going to get men and and there

are were lots of women, but then

there'll be more white men. And it's

it's not because the po the pool

presented itself that way. Now you have

to extract from that pool. And so in

this briefing when they were talking

about like the old white boys network or

how we need to change things, I said,

you know, do you realize that most men

are have more in common um than most

women? Or like if there's a if if if I

if I say I need more diversity in a

particular room, if you said diversity

of thought, I'd be fine with that. But

but Joe and you know random black guy in

the in the same program in the same

office have far more in common than the

white woman. But if all but what you're

saying is these people need to have all

separate different colors and different

and different like all of this needs to

be this way. It's going to naturally

present itself that way because men in

the military generally are disagreeable.

Men in the military who like engineering

are generally hyper disagreeable. and

and the the only difference between

these two people is the pigment of their

skin. So this fake diversity quota that

they're putting on top of us doesn't

achieve anything other than giving some

officer a bullet on their OEER. And you

know I got pulled into the office

afterward. I said way more than that,

but essentially afterwards they were

like, "Hey chief, you can't uh you can't

say that in those briefings like the way

that you were getting animated in there

and what you're saying what you're doing

like uh yeah, this is not going to fly."

And this was like 2018 or 2019 or

something.

>> Just being rational.

>> Yeah. Just trying to be rational and say

that there's there's more difference in

groups than there is between groups. And

that the similarities in the way that

things stack up, you recruit from a pool

of volunteers and candidates. If I'm

recruiting from a pool of volunteers and

candidates who are 80% male and white, I

have to expect that the selected

individuals are going to be a male and

white. The majority of people who join

the military, I don't control this. I'm

just as an engineer, I'm looking at

statistics.

>> Also, if you want a highly functional,

productive group, it's got to be based

on meritocracy.

>> Yeah, for sure. For sure.

>> Anything other than that is literally a

threat to national security.

>> Yeah. You're you're you're denigrating

lethality.

>> Yeah.

>> The role of the army is to deter war

through exuding superior military

fighting and technology. And when

deterrence fails to win, that's it. It

those are the those are the two things

that we need to do with our military. It

needs to look like the guy in the

playground who you would not muck about

with and if you were to muck with him,

he will beat you senseless. That's it.

Now whether or not we should be using

that all the time or how we use it or

that's a separate question. But the

entity itself needs to comport itself in

this way. Otherwise, you are endangering

this this truly special experiment which

at least in its beginnings valued the

individual. It valued individual rights

and states rights and it and it and and

and the and the founders and this was

another thing I said in that briefing

was the founders knew yes they were all

slaveholders but they knew that the

constitution and the bill of rights and

the declaration of independence would

eventually lead to a system where we had

to acknowledge these people as people

and we fought a civil war where a

million white dudes died to see this

experiment through the scaffolding was

there. You have to look at the things

the zeitgeist of the time if they had

just said nope everyone's going to be

sla free there will be no slaves you

would have never gotten ratification

through the southern states but they

knew that there were and when you read

the federalist papers they knew that

they were erecting this system and when

you look at Thomas Jefferson and some of

these other great thinkers who yes he

owned slaves I get it um they knew what

they were building and they knew that

what what would it ultimately terminate

in and then we had a civil war where we

destroyed our country from inside to see

this dream come about and now we're just

going to all go back and say they're all

slave owners. Like I know this has all

been said here a million times, but this

stuff animates me because it's built

with blood and treasure. Well, it's also

you can't judge people from the past

based on the standards of the present.

>> For sure

>> because culture changes, people

understand things better. We have a more

a much greater recognition of what was

wrong with things a 100 years ago, 200

years ago. And I'm sure in the future

we're going to look back on today with

the same lens. There's It just always

works that way.

>> Did you know Joe had a gas-powered car?

>> Exactly. That kind of stuff. Yeah.

>> Did you know that

>> you consumed more, you flew more? You

ate more meat? You did whatever you did.

You You were a problem.

>> He was a problem. Yeah. And and now why

would we ever like I'm voting to get rid

of the Joe Rogan experience from the

National Archives because you drove a

gas car.

>> Yeah.

>> You know what I mean? Like someone, you

know, stores your stuff for profoundity

sake for the future to hear about this.

>> You know, I I I've always loved your

podcast, Joe. And it was because you're

a genuinely curious person, and I'm not

kissing your ass right now.

>> You're a genuinely curious person that

was saying things that were not in the

current zeitgeist at the time, and you

refused to apologize for it. And it it

led it, you know, led to a lot of great

things, but it led to the an updating of

the system. And you did it with

dialogue, with the D logos, with, you

know, two people trying to learn things

about each other. And it led to an

updating of a system. I think it's very

important for culture to have free and

open dialogue so we can update our

system. So bad ideas can die so we don't

have to die instead of our bad ideas.

>> Yeah.

>> Because if I can't express a bad idea, I

have to act it out.

>> And if I act out the bad idea, it could

kill me. and the celebration of good

ideas

>> and and the celebration of good ideas.

And uh it's just really there's just

been such a weird inversion in politics

where the free hippie loving liberals of

yester year are now the ones telling you

what words you can use. There are no

borders. All of these crazy things. Um

and I always say to people, I said it to

Andy some my last podcast with him. I'm

like a 1996 Bill Clinton Democrat. If

you go watch his State of the Union and

he talks about lowering debt, getting

out of debt, actually working with Nuke

Gingrich to get out of debt,

>> um securing the borders, making work and

education freely accessible.

>> Um I'm voting for that guy.

>> I know. Isn't it crazy that I mean

that's why the problem of labels doesn't

work, ideological labels, because if you

go back far enough and look at Clinton

for example, he's one of the best ones

and by the way did balance the budget.

>> Yeah, he did. He actually did.

>> We had a surplus when he left office.

Amazing.

>> Did a [ __ ] amazing job. So he got his

dick sucked. Yeah. Who didn't back then?

That's the other thing. Judging people

by the standards of the past, you know,

JFK doesn't look so good in the Me Too

movement. You know, you know, I mean, he

would have got cancelled.

>> It's like you you have to recognize that

those this ideological bubble that we

find ourselves in left versus right,

Bill Clinton does not fit in that. Bill

Clinton is securely on the right in

terms of, you know, 1996 standards

applied to today.

>> He would never want to hear that.

>> No, he would never want to hear that

because he's kind of shifted with the

zeitgeist because that's what you kind

of have to do if you want to stay in

your party and be protected by your

party.

>> Yes.

>> You know, but he's essentially he had a

lot of the I mean, we've talked about

this before. We've played clips of uh

Hillary Clinton from 2008 and she's more

MAGA than MAGA. I know. You know, her

her take on the border was like hardcore

was hardcore. If you've been convicted

of a crime, get out. You know, if you

stay here, pay a stiff penalty and you

have to get in line and you have to

learn English and everybody cheers.

>> Yeah.

>> Like that is a hardcore right-wing 2026

perspective.

>> Obama did it too in 2012.

>> Absolutely. And Obama deported more

people than Trump did.

>> Yes, exactly.

>> Yeah. This episode is brought to you by

Threat Locker. Data breaches are

happening more frequently than ever, and

it's not because of sophisticated

tactics.

Attackers are using the same methods and

exploiting the same vulnerabilities.

What's changed is speed and scale.

Reacting to breaches can leave you

exhausted, constantly chasing threats

instead of preventing them. That's where

Threat Locker comes in. With Threat

Locker Zero Trust, you only allow what

you need and block everything else by

default. You control what runs, when,

where, and how. Blocking ransomware

before it executes. Because no matter

how you respond, a fast response simply

isn't fast enough. Visit

threatlocker.com/jre

to learn more. And and it's just I'm not

saying like my thought is I'm always

updating I'm always updating my systems.

I'm always getting told things. I always

have a p preescribed way of looking at

the world that I'll have a good

conversation with someone. I'll update

my system. But generally my principles

are in place. And when you watch these

people who get in their 30s, 40s, 50s,

and 60s and their core foundational

principles are changing, it really

should give you cause for concern

>> because like you were saying this at

this time and now you're saying this at

that time. It's like generally my rubric

that I don't think will change about

myself is I'm fervently for the

individual and I'm fervently for truth

and and that we can that the that the

world you you should measure it and look

at not what your intentions are but what

the outcomes are and and then evaluate

the system and how it scales based on

those outcomes. Those are that's

principally if you I try to live that

standard up to myself. I fall fall short

of that standard all the time, but I try

being a human.

>> I try to live by that standard. And I I

feel like that will always be me even

into my 90s.

>> Like unless something goes horribly

wrong. Right.

>> Right. Right. And and I've pretty much

been here since, you know, the past

seven or eight years or so. Like even

into my 30s, I wasn't quite sure who I

was um as a human. And uh but I'm I'm

pretty, you know, steadfast in that. and

the amount of opportunities and the

amount of goodness in my life and my

children and and my home and the things

I've been able to do have really been

born out of that last seven years of the

truth's going to be the top of the of

the decision matrix for me, the top of

the hierarchy for me. I'm gonna try not

to cut corners whenever I can and help

good people around me and and and the

truth is the way that I'll organize and

function myself in life and that I will

try to only judge people as individuals

and the world you know these are

Christ's teachings from 2,000 years ago

and but the world for me has just opened

up in a way that I could have never

predicted using a very simple rubric.

It's not easy, but it's simple. And if

more people just took those, and this

isn't me. I didn't come up with this.

This is the result of, you know,

watching a bunch of experiments go bad.

But if people just adopted that very

simple thing and just tried it for 3

months, you'll feel better about

yourself. You'll feel better about the

world. You feel better about the people

approximately around you. It might make

you hate the government more.

>> Yeah.

>> But uh um

>> but I don't think if you don't hate the

government, I think you're not paying

attention.

>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean,

>> when you were working in cyber defense,

like what what

>> cyber offense,

>> cyber offense, what was the the primary

function? Like what did you do?

>> Um, so in the beginning, it it I I have

no short answers and I apologize.

>> In the beginning,

>> I don't like short answers.

>> Yeah. I just I always feel like I'm

>> I like a good long answer. Don't worry

about that.

>> Okay. When I joined the military, I was

in signals intelligence. Um, and

essentially learning the ins and outs of

radars, how radars work, what they do,

um, how they function.

>> Did you guys ever see any weird [ __ ]

like UFO [ __ ]

>> I I wish I had.

>> I really do.

>> I wish you had too.

>> Yeah, I really do. Um, I was more in the

signals intelligence side of the house.

um focusing first on electronic signals

or emanations from radars, mapping them

so that you know if we were going to go

do the ground invasion and there was

going to be some air support going in

first and blowing [ __ ] up, we would tell

them, "Hey, there's a man packable SA7

here, there's a SA10 here, there's this

here, there's there." And then telling

these pilots so they didn't get shot out

of the sky.

>> Um quickly when the war kicked off that

became irrelevant because there was no,

you know, surfacetoair missiles,

surfacetos surface missiles in Iraq. We

had knocked them all out in the first

few weeks. So then it shifted to

communications intelligence. So I kind

of retrained on communications

intelligence and that was at that time

off of cell phones, off of uh pushto

talk radios, repeaters, um long haul

networks, terrestrial networks,

extraterrestrial networks. And what I

mean by that is stuff satellites in the

sky um and doing analysis on those to

try to inform the the the what we call

the common operating picture of the

battlefield for a combatant commander.

So, command commander wants to know

where the bad guys are, what they're

doing, what they're saying. To the event

to the amount that we could, my job was

to um come up with solutions and

conduct, you know, um passive and active

um signals analysis on these things and

then inform the commander so that we

could, you know, uh mitigate risk. It

was all about mitigation of risk. Um

from this is 2008 or so. I've been doing

this for about seven years, eight years.

And um from there it shifted to the

phones getting smart and essentially it

went from you walking around with a 2G

phone or a 3G phone that had limited

comput capability to now there's robust

comput capability with the advent of

like the iPhone and now it's like well

now we've got to get after guys who are

you know essentially walking around with

a computer we could never have

envisioned 20 years ago in their pocket

with all this capability cuz the

military and our and our our forces that

we're fighting against it all comes down

to our ability to shoot, move, and

communicate. Communication being the

part that I was focused on. So, as the

advent of the iPhone and those things

came out, the army realized we didn't

have a a computer network operations

MOS. We didn't have a um offensive um

cyber component. We didn't have a

defensive cyber component. So, we kind

of I was there for at the ground floor

when we were building out these new

MOS's now that are all over the

military. But, at that time, there was a

a thought going into, you know, we need

to have people who know how to be oned

operators. ethical hacking. As

paradoxical as that sounds, that's how

the lawyers called it that. So, it's

hacking at the end of the day, but

ethical hacking because you've got the

backing of the US government. And so, we

set up that framework and really started

launching into operations, you know,

2006 78 all the way into my last

deployment in 2017 or 17. It was all

focused on computer network operations

and how they lash up with terrestrial

networks. How do we exploit all of that?

um was one facet of my job and um uh

your question was how did I

>> get into all of that and that that was

that that was the um

>> how do you get into it and what was what

what did what was like what was the

operational aspect of it like how did

you actually what did you do

>> uh going so you know there's there's

I'll stick to terms that are more um

generally understood by the public but

learning how to do things like war

driving um collecting on networks Wi-Fi

you know endpoints um cell phones, uh

understanding the ins and outs of them,

understanding how to do forensic

analysis of them. So after there was an

operation and a bunch of gorillas have

been sent sent in to kill the bad guy,

um we could derive maximum intelligence

value from the hand from the handset to

plan other operations. Um and so you

know it would be passive um monitoring

of networks to inform the intelligence

picture which would lead to either

combat operations or active computer

network operations where now it's like

well there's you know a uh I don't know

a

Iraqi or an Afghani router that hasn't

been patched in 3 years and we think we

can either write or find a zero day

which is just an exploit of those

routers.

where um we can muck with their router

in a way where they think they're

getting a good information and they're

not or they're or erecting other things

um to uh mitigate risk for the

commander. And so um that really you

know exploded at that point and between

that and human intelligence which is

kind of the um the actual gathering of

intelligence from other people. You know

you would call it spy or you know James

Bond but that's James Bond was a

horrible spy. Um was he

>> I mean yeah you know your job is to

remain u anonymous and you're walking

into a casino and there's Goldfinger

calling you by your first and last name.

It's not a great look. um you know

generally you don't want to be sleeping

with your sources or uh um you know

using your real name or whatever. So

human intelligence and then my focus for

the last 10 years was how does signals

intelligence computer network operations

um become a force multiplier for people

conducting overt and clandestine

operations um throughout the theater at

that time. uh my you know my deployments

and my time was spent in Iraq,

Afghanistan, um Africa, Northern Africa,

and then the a lot of people don't know

it, but we were in active combat

operations in the southern Philippines

as well for uh a fair amount of time. I

want to maybe say seven or 10 years. We

were doing combat operations. When was

this?

>> In the southern Philippines. My first

deployment to the cell um um southern

Philippines was uh 2007.

>> Who were we doing operations against? So

um there were terrorist elements down

there that were traveling back and forth

from Pakistan and Afghanistan and there

was a terrorist organization down there

called the Abu Sai group and uh there

were other ones as well. Jama Islamia I

think was the name of the other one and