If you had to give one relationship

ritual to stay in love, what would that

be? Once a week, tell your partner three

things that you love about them and

three things they could have done

better.

>> But some people thinking, well, and if I

told Dave that we're going to start

writing these notes to each other, he's

going to cringe and not going to do it.

[ __ ] Honestly, Dave can't name

three things he likes about you. Really,

Dave? Is that a big ask? I absolutely

call bull on that. The bigger question

is what's uncomfortable about that for

you? And look, I'm not a therapist. I'm

a divorce lawyer. I represent some of

the most high achieving minds, athletes,

entrepreneurs, and they're just as bad

at this as anybody because there's a

part of us that's afraid to poke at what

do you love about me? What am I getting

wrong? And it's not just romantic

relationships. Like,

my mom died 10 years ago after a long

battle with cancer.

There was a lot between us that needed

to be said and wasn't said.

And there's a part of me that wishes she

was here so that I could have apologized

for some things I got wrong. But we

don't do that because people just don't

want temporary discomfort. And so I

think there's something deeply

courageous about love, about commitment,

about saying I'm going to give them the

opportunity to hurt me. Like it's scary,

but I'm brave. You know, your marriage

will end. It ends in death or divorce.

And for two people at the end of their

relationship to say, "This person helped

me become the most authentic version of

myself." That's the greatest gift you

could give to another human being. And

as you can see from this photo, I just

proposed to my fiance. I'd like some

advice on how not to mess this up. Like

if my fiance ends up walking into your

practice, what is the reason she's

likely to end up there? The number one

reason that I'm going to have a woman

sitting across from me, divorcing

someone who's a great provider, great

protector is

>> that is not obvious to everybody

>> and it'll keep me in business for the

rest of my life.

>> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.

We're approaching a significant

subscriber milestone on this show and

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it's the thing, the simple, free, easy

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So, that's a favor I would ask you. And

um if you do hit the subscribe button, I

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find small ways to make this whole

production better. Thank you so much for

being part of this journey. Means the

world. And uh yeah, let's do this.

James,

as you can see from this photo, I just

proposed to my fiance and gladly she

said yes. So, I've brought you here in

part because I'd like some advice on how

not to mess this up because I know from

speaking to you previously about 50% of

people that get down on their knee end

up messing it up in some way. Before we

get into this though, and before you

help me figure out how to stay in love

and not mess it up.

>> Yeah.

>> Where do you find us at as it relates to

love as a society? If you were to zoom

out and diagnose society's relationship

with the subject of love and their um

ability to keep it, find it, and

understand it, where are we?

>> I think we we're in this really

uncomfortable moment as a culture. I

think we we want more than anything to

feel real connection. I think we're sick

of just looking at screens. I think we

came out of the pandemic with a feeling

of, okay, I want to be in the world with

other people and feel the warmth of real

people.

And yet, we have an increasingly

lower number of useful tools in finding

connection and staying connected, which

are two totally different skills. And

yet we're yearning for it more than

ever. So we're more hungry than we've

ever been and we have no idea how to

cook

>> in your head because you've seen so many

people go through divorce and

relationships fail.

>> There must be a sort of checklist of

things that I'm likely to mess up.

>> Yeah. I mean, well, you know, first of

all, when I when I knew you, you know,

heard you got engaged,

>> I was thrilled because I'm always

cheering for people. I really am. I'm

always cheering for love. And so I think

in our prior conversations, you're

obviously someone who loves very deeply

and and the fact that you found this

person, you know, to me is the most

lovely thing. You know, I I think at its

core, this is your favorite person. I

just can't think of anything more lovely

than that. Like the idea that you would

look at a person and go, "You're my

favorite person." And and that person

would look at you and say, "You're my

favorite person." And that you would

know that it's true. like when they say

it that it's true. Like that that feels

to me like something worth pursuing.

That feels like something that if I

tried to get it and I failed, I'd try

again because if you could find it, it's

just about the greatest thing in the

world. Like the the thought to me that,

you know, I I I won't get to give a

toast at your wedding, but I will say

that if I was going to give the toast,

it would be that there are two wishes I

have for you. You know, your marriage

will end. I mean, I've said it to you

before in one of our first

conversations. Every marriage ends. It

ends in death or divorce. I hope yours

ends in death. And I hope when it ends

in death that let's send you off first

that when you're dying that she will say

hopefully to you or to those around,

you helped me become the most authentic

version of myself and you're still my

favorite person.

Because I can't think of a greater

blessing than that. like for two people

at the end of their life, at the end of

their relationship to say, "This person

helped me become the most authentic

version of myself and they're still my

favorite person." That's the greatest

gift you could give to another human

being, I think. And I like the idea that

even in the face of knowing that this is

risky, this is something that may not

work, this is something that

statistically the odds are against, but

I'm going to give it a shot because, you

know, there's something it adds to my

life and there's something I add to her

life and, you know, we're going to we're

going to give it a shot. I don't know. I

found that very beautiful. As a divorce

lawyer who is also a very big fan of

love, do you ever find yourself trying

to get someone not to get a divorce, has

there ever been an instance where you

you looked at the situation and thought,

you know what, they should just get back

together? Yeah. I what I'll say is my

first thought is often,

is this person accurately perceiving the

situation that they're in? So people

will come in and they'll say, you know,

it really people come to me in very

different situations. So sometimes

people will come to me and they're

they're they've been served with divorce

papers like the marriage is over and now

it's about okay we have to react

defensively. So you know when people

come to my office the situation is often

so dire and so broken that they're

coming in to hire me for that specific

purpose. But I will say without question

that if I get any sense that this person

would either a benefit from individual

therapy that might help them view the

relationship differently and come to the

relationship differently. I will not

hesitate to refer them. And then there

are people that and it's more common

than you'd think that something awful

has happened in the relationship. They

had an affair and got caught. they

caught their spouse having an affair. Uh

they've lost their job and it created

tremendous discord in their

relationship. And that often will feel

to me like something that perhaps would

benefit from the intervention of mental

health professionals or everyone just

taking a breath and taking a minute,

especially when there's kids involved,

but even when there aren't.

>> Are your clients predominantly men or

women?

>> It's pretty much an even split really.

>> Yeah. I represent a lot of either very

high achieving high- netw worth

individuals or people married to them.

>> And are the reasons that they come to

you, those two different groups,

>> different?

>> Like the reason why they want a

separation, is it fundamentally

different?

>> So the specific example of cheating, I

would say men get caught cheating more

often than women.

>> Does that mean they cheat more?

>> No, it means they get caught cheating

more. I I don't think that anyone could

really truly accurately say, you know, I

know people love statistics and I know

that that, you know, guests have a

tendency to come out and say, well, 72%

of people who are everything I'm saying

is based on what I've observed in 25

years of facilitating the demise of

marriages. Men and women both cheat. Men

cheat in just more scattershot stupid

ways than women do. When women cheat, in

my experience professionally, it's

usually an indication of like the it's

the absolute end of this relationship.

The relationship is over and this is

either a soft place to land or it's sort

of a final opportunity for this person

to solidify, this woman to solidify in

her head that yeah, this thing is over.

Whereas men, I I've really had hundreds

at this point of men sit across from me

who've been caught in an affair or sense

that they're about to get caught in an

affair and they say to me like, "Yeah,

this had nothing to do with my wife.

Like, I love my wife. It had nothing to

do with that. It just I don't know. I

just I don't know why I did what I did.

I just did it." And I I know everyone

kind of wants to because in civilized

society it feels good to kind of go like

I can't believe that. That's how could

someone say that? But shut up. Like if

you have you have potato chips in your

cabinet, you know, you you you know that

you're not supposed to eat them. You

don't want to eat them. You want vibrant

good health. You want to take care of

your but they're there. They're there.

And you're human. And like I can control

my food environment better than my

brain. Like I have a lot of resolve when

I wake up in the morning. But at about 7

8:00 at night when I'm a little bit

tired and it's been a long day and I

deserve something nice, if the potato

chips are there, I'm eating the potato

chips. Like, we're human. We're human.

There are times where we're just feeling

lonely or hungry or angry or tired or

some combination of those factors. and

this warm thing like the connection to

another person, the the joy of

flirtation, the excitement of of feeling

the energy between yourself and whatever

it is type of person that you're

attracted to. I think it's very normal.

And then the problem becomes that you're

not thinking about the consequences of

those things. If you were thinking about

the consequences of those things, you'd

make better choices. But we all know

that discipline is trading what you want

now for what you want most. And

sometimes it's hard to remember what you

want most and to keep it in your line of

sight.

>> So from your experience, you know, if my

fiance someday ends up walking into your

practice, what is the

reason she's likely to end up there from

her perspective asking you to help her

get out of the relationship with me?

the most obvious, if you're going to be

like the most the average, the

statistical average, it would be that

you've stopped seeing her and stopped

noticing her in in the list of things

that are important to Steven, that she's

somewhere in the middle to bottom of

that list. Like for for a high achiever

like you, for someone who's

entrepreneurial in the manner that you

are, for someone who, you know, lives

the kind of lifestyle that you do where

you're on this coast one day and this

country another day and flying here on a

moment's notice and getting invitations

to interesting things and you have to

triage because you couldn't possibly do

all the things that you'd like to do. It

usually would be that she just feels

herself slipping in the rankings. And I

think that that is often not a function

of what you're like that lifestyle I

just described. It's a function of where

you take time to fit her into that.

Because I genuinely have found

tremendous number of examples of people

who and this is in the relationship work

who have that level of intensity in

their life and that level of chaos in

their schedule and it's unpredictable

but they have that ability every morning

or every afternoon or every once in a

while but consistently to say hey I have

a minute between recordings. I just

wanted you to know I was thinking of

you. Or hey, you know, I heard that song

when I was in the car from here to here

and it makes me think of you and I can't

wait to see you next week. You know,

something like that to me, like how hard

is that? By the way, doesn't have to be

like a global lifestyle. It could even

be, hey, we got a couple of kids and two

dogs and you know, my my mom is sick and

I got to tend to her so I'm super busy.

But how do you let your partner know,

hey, you're still really important.

we're still really connected to each

other because that's the number one

complaint. That's the number one reason,

particularly with women, that I'm going

to have a woman sitting across from me

divorcing someone who's a great

provider, great protector, great all of

those things.

>> That is not obvious to everybody. And

I'll be honest, it's not it wasn't

necessarily obvious to me. The way that

I operate naturally, and this is just

the way that I am. I've spoken to so

many of my friends to understand how

they operate and the way that their

brain works is when I'm here.

>> The only thing I'm thinking about is

this

>> and I almost I'm remarkable at

forgetting everything else

>> and and being completely here.

>> Now that sounds like a good thing,

>> but it also means that I can lose 14

hours and forget to to check in. I can

forget, you know.

>> Is it is it also true when you're with

her? Yes. When we have scheduled the

time.

>> Good.

>> So, you know, when we schedule the time

to go and do something together, I'm I'm

there. I'm not on my phone. I'm not

doing anything else.

>> Good. I think that's a tremendous

priority. I'm hearing more and more from

people the feeling of, yeah, we're

together, but we're not together. We're

sitting there and they're on their phone

or they're doing other things. And I

think that it's really really important

that one of the really important aspects

of relationship be that there is time

where you give each other that level of

focus. But again, you know, like it's

just not something we are necessarily

taught. We have maybe we have our

parents as models, but very often

they're they're not good models.

>> What's interesting here as well is for

some reason I've chosen someone who's

like the opposite of me in terms of the

way that I

>> partly because she Yeah, probably. And

when I've spoken to some of my friends

who are quite like me, they've also

chosen partners who are the opposite of

them.

>> Could you imagine? I know.

>> Could you imagine two of you? Like

imagine me with me, you know, you with

you. That would like it would be so

intense. But

>> this is why it becomes so easy to

misunderstand because we go through life

assuming the other person has the same

perspective as we do

>> and they feel the same way that we do

about things. And

>> but what's the solution to that? I've

had to learn

to

check in.

>> Yeah. But don't you think she loves that

about you?

>> She does. She actually just sent me a

message this morning saying, "Thank you

so much." Because I said when I left

this time, I said, "Listen, I'm going to

FaceTime you every day,

>> even if it's for just one minute."

>> Yeah.

>> So,

>> isn't that lovely, though? You're still

trying to figure out how can I be better

at this thing? And that's amazing.

That's a beautiful thing. You know

what's so funny is if I walked into your

home and on the table there was, you

know, the power of habit by during or

the seven habits of highly effective

people, I would go, "Oh, look at look at

Stephen. He's still so successful. He's

still trying to sharpen the point of the

spear. Amazing." You know, but if you

walk in and you see a book, you know,

how to stay in love, you go, "Things all

right with Stephen? Like things going

okay? What's going on with the

relationship?" Why? Why don't we as a

society just acknowledge we're we're

kind of bad at this? We're kind of bad

at maintaining connection. We're kind of

bad at helping like feeling loved and

feeling worthy of love and helping our

partner feel loved and figuring out how

to maintain connection. And maybe the

key is that little thing, that one

minute facetime, that one minute of

saying, "Hey, maybe we should try this

other thing." What are you actually

saying? What you're actually saying is,

"I want to be good at this job. How can

I be good at this job? How can I stay

good at it? How can I get even better at

it?" Like, we go for the job interview

and we want this job so bad. Like,

that's what dating is. Dating is I'm

sending my resume all over the place.

I'm sending it all over the place. I

hope I can find something, something

that suits my skills and my needs and

where they want me and I'll be well

compensated and I'll get something from

it and I'll give something to it because

I have all this talent and I have all

this stuff and I want to give it to a

worthy cause and I want to be

compensated for that and I want to feel

part of something. That's all dating is

is it's a job interview and then you get

the job and for a little while you're

like I got the job. It's the oh my god

you should see the office is amazing and

you should and I could I knew exactly

what's going you know there's room for

growth. There's room for growth in this

job. It's going to be great, you know,

and I I really feel like there's room

for advancement. Like, this could be the

job. This could be my career. This could

be my vocation. It could be meaningful

and wonderful. I think I have something

I could contribute to. And we're so

excited. And you jump ahead 3 years

later and we're like, that [ __ ] job.

That job. Yeah. No, I got to go to work

again. Like, yep. All right. Here we go.

That's it. You know, I got a friend who

just got the best job. Oh my god. They

had their they got the great and that's

all we instead of trying to remember

that at some point the relationship that

you're in was something you aspired to

like the idea that you were someday

going to find a person who just was your

favorite person and you were their

favorite person and you were going to be

there for each other and see each

other's blind spots and help each other

like figure out who you are and be it

and that you were going to grow together

and change together. And some core

things would stay exactly the same. And

some things would change in beautiful,

meaningful ways. And you'd see each

other through amazing things and

terrible things and all the things that

the world throws at you. You'd never be

alone again because you'd have this

person like, and somehow

it's considered sort of odd to check in

and want to be good at that job and have

performance reviews. Like, you run

teams. you run so many teams. How how

often do you go, we don't need to have

performance reviews?

>> I think at the heart of this is we

assume probably through media and social

media that relationships are supposed to

be effortless.

>> Why?

>> I don't just kind of what you see,

right? Like I remember I remember um my

girlfriend telling me the other day, she

was like, "Oh, there's this couple I

follow on Instagram and they're like

amazing. um they're like the perfect

couple and it's just just turned out

that the guy is sleeping with someone

else.

>> Yeah. And I thought and again I thought

well that watch my girlfriend

vicariously watching that couple for the

last 5 years has probably increased her

expectations on what a relationship

should be cuz she's just had this sort

of two dimensional window but there was

some

the natural mess of relationship was

taking place outside of you and we all

just have the 2D window like

relationship problems on Instagram

broadcasting that doesn't doesn't drive

followership. No. And what what what

I'll also say is look, we formulate a

lot of our conception of what a

relationship should look like by

portrayals of relationships in film and

television, right? Yeah. Okay. So,

>> can we agree that the romcom or the

romantic film

is basically just an emotional version

of pornography? like it's a stylized

excerted falsehood that's designed to

amplify the the most visually and

emotionally compelling or stimulating

aspects of things like yes there's

conflict but it gets cleaned up very

neatly and very nicely like there's it's

so this perception that that

relationships should be effortless

is based I think on largely that which

is this feeling that and again whether a

story is a comedy or a tragedy depends

and where you end the story, right? So,

we always end the story in a spot where

it's like, "Tada, they're in love and

they walk off hand in hand." But, right,

they walk off into life. They walk off

into this ecosystem of life that's

filled with complexity and there's

factors beyond our control that are

impacting our emotional state, the

emotional state of our partner, the you,

the me, and the Wii. So, there's a lot

going on and and the thought that, well,

this should be effortless. everything

else is a lot of work and potentially

and by the way the opposite

like this is effortless and this is a

drudgery and we tend to just see things

in that binary way unnecessarily like

we've made so much progress as a society

when it comes to not viewing everything

in a binary like there's there's not as

much rigidity about gender roles anymore

there's not as rigidity about you know

are you a worker are you like a career

person or a family person like there's a

sense of weight. You can kind of be a

little bit of both. Like look at these

things as a spectrum a little bit. So,

but this we're still pretty glued into

this idea that like relationships are

supposed to be the smoothest, easiest

thing or relationships are hard work.

You're not supposed to be happy all the

time. And shut up if you think that

that's what you oh you're not happy.

Nobody's happy or you're not supposed to

be happy. That's not the point of

marriage. The point of marriage is a

commitment.

>> Are relationships supposed to be simple?

>> I don't know what you mean by simple.

Simple to navigate? No, they're

obviously not simple to navigate because

56% of them end in divorce.

>> Is it going to be hard?

>> If your definition of hard is I have to

pay some level of attention to it, then

yes, it's going to be hard. Is that

hard? Like, is that hard? Really? Is

that hard? Like, I don't think it's that

hard. Paying attention isn't that hard.

Remembering to pay attention might be

hard, but don't you create reminders for

yourself? You've got so many gadgets and

you can't have some reminder in the day

of like, oh

her, keep her in my line of sight.

Again, it doesn't mean you don't love

her, that she's not front of mind. It

means you're a driven, hardworking

person. I'm a driven, hardworking

person. There's tons of times where very

important things in my life aren't front

of mind. But that's why I use reminders.

>> So to invert that question that I asked

at the top of this, if I am to come to

you at some point in the future, James,

and I say, "Listen, I need a divorce."

>> What am I likely to give as the reason

for that based on, you know, who I am

and how that correlates to the clients

like me that you deal with?

>> Yeah. So the reason you're going to give

and the underlying reason is different.

So, the the reason you're going to give

is going to be a practical reason, which

is either I've met someone else, she's

met someone else, um we've had a

terrible fight and uh I've said things

that we can't take back. I had a

spectacular failure financially and

she's just bailing on me because she

sees that the future's really rocky or

she made some terrible decision and did

something awful that's a betrayal that I

can't abide by. But again, that's the

presenting reason.

Underneath that is the bigger reason,

which is we lost the plot.

We lost the plot. Like that that's a

that's the start of a chapter in a

story. It's the end of a chapter and the

start of a chapter. That photo like the

first chapter in that story was was was

this person and this person wandering

around on the same planet trying to

figure it out, trying to figure out what

they're doing. And they have their

origin story and they have their you

know their complimentary pathologies

that developed over time and then you

know they found each other. 8 billion

people in the world and somehow their

paths intersected you know and they

started to have this connection and so

there was the you and there was the me

and then there was the Wii and that ven

diagram started right and then you start

to fill it with things you fill it with

people. You fill it with experiences.

And this is just a stop along the way

like this. These two people, this is

just a moment. It's an incredible

moment. It can be like kuman. It can be

like a moment that there was this and

then everything after this. It's a

punctuation mark. Like I like to say

that life has punctuation marks. Like

you had a kid, you lost your job, you

got a job, whatever. Those are

punctuation marks. This is a big

punctuation mark. And it will either be

you know the beginning of the end or the

end of the beginning. You get to write

that. You get to write that chapter. But

this is a moment for me. The reason why

this is a beautiful moment is this is a

moment of tremendous optimism. This is a

moment where the two of you said you're

my favorite person and and I I want to

write this next chapter with you as as

having a different title in it. But

really, like the title's just a symbol.

The the ring is just a symbol. It's just

a symbol of a commitment. It's a symbol

of of a promise. And all a promises is a

symbol of intention. That's all. It's

just an intention. Our intention is

we're not going to be alone anymore.

We're going to do this together. And by

the way, you're already not alone. The

fact that you got to this place that you

would ask this question, that that's a

beautiful confirmation of the fact that

you don't feel alone.

>> We would have lost the plot.

Yeah. Yeah. You would have lost the plot

of the story. I So, this is a story.

Where does this story go? Where do you

want it to go? You want it to go to a

future that features the two of you old

together someday. Maybe it features

children. Maybe it features companion

animals.

>> And what what is the most likely reason

that we would lose the plot?

>> You stop paying attention.

>> You stop you stop doing what you're

currently do. How did you get to this

beautiful moment? You start doing the

opposite. You got to this moment by

paying attention. You got to this moment

by making this a priority. You got to

this moment by by keeping this front of

mind. By valuing what is this but a

symbol of you are valuable to me. Why

did you get on one knee? Why do you get

on one knee? I mean, think about the

symbols of all of this. We live in a

world of symbols. Like the outfit I'm

wearing, I'm saying something to you. I

take this seriously. That's why you wear

a suit. is you wear a suit to say I take

this seriously. So what why did you do

this? What is this as simple? I'm down

on one knee. Why? I'm humbling myself in

front of you. I'm offering something to

you. I'm hoping you will accept the gift

I am giving to you. Like there's

something very lovely about that symbol.

>> Is this is this what you call slippage?

>> Slippage is exactly when you start to

unintentionally again people rarely have

slippage intentionally. It's usually

that, okay, we got that knocked out. Now

we can focus on the other stuff. And

that's slippage. Slippage is these small

disconnections. Small disconnections

that in of themselves mean nothing. Like

no single raindrops responsible for the

flood. That little raindrop, it's just a

little raindrop. That's all it really

is. But slippage is this gradually

increasing number of small

disconnections that eventually leads to

the giant marriage killer that you come

in and say, "Here's why we're getting

divorced." But it wasn't that. It it was

all these little pieces, but at some

point you were there.

>> Do you think people

spot the slippage in the moment, but

they don't think it's big enough to

fight about or do something about?

>> 100%. And that's that's the cognitive

bias. That's the fallacy that will keep

me in business for the rest of my life

because people just don't want temporary

discomfort. Like our desire for joy

versus our aversion to pain, our

aversion to pain will win every single

time. We know this. That's why there was

an opiate crisis more so than a cocaine

crisis. Because one of those things is

about making you feel really good and

the other is about getting rid of pain.

Like the the human desire any scientist

will tell you this ask our friend Andrew

Huberman ask anybody they will tell you

the human desire to escape pain is the

controlling aspect of self. So escaping

pain even discomfort even dis and again

this is this is pushed by the narrative

that love should be easy. If you're

going to make if anything's

uncomfortable about it, you must be

doing it wrong. Maybe you're not with

your soulmate. You know, it would be so

easy and effortless. You'd always know

what the other person wanted. You'd

never have to tell them. They would

know. They would know you well enough to

know what it is that you need. And they

would get you. Even though, by the way,

really, really like I'm 53 years old.

I've been in therapy for 20 years.

I get like 70% of this guy, I think,

like at best. Like, and I'm in here. I'm

in here and I get about 70% of this guy.

Like, and I'm supposed to get you a

100%.

Because we're exchanging bodily fluids.

Like, we're I'm supposed to just cuz

we've slept in the same bed, I'm

supposed to get you 100% and get ahead

of stuff. Like, I get me 70%. And that's

with a lot of reflection. So, I I really

think that it's wildly unfair for us to

to to think that, you know, this should

be effortless, this should be easy, and

that it should never be uncomfortable.

It's okay to be like I I think because

of what I do for a living, I have to

tell people things they don't want to

hear all day because it's true. And I

tell them what they need to hear and not

what they want to hear. And you know,

when clients say to me at the end of a

consultation or conversation like, "Oh

my god, I feel so much better." better.

I always go, "That's great. That wasn't

my intention." Because I don't want

anyone I talk to professionally to think

I am telling you something to make you

feel better. I'm not here to make you

feel better. I'm not a therapist. I'm

here to tell you the truth. And if the

truth makes you feel better, great. If

the truth makes you uncomfortable, at

least you know the truth now. So, I feel

like in relationship again, if what you

want most is lasting lifelong connection

where we get each other as best we can,

we can help each other navigate self and

each other as best we can and we cannot

lose the plot of a story that is really

beautiful right now. So, everybody

listening can probably think about

something in their relationship which

has gotten a little bit worse

>> since they first got into that

relationship. And it could be the way

that they argue is getting a little bit

worse. They're not listening as much.

>> Maybe the voice the the tone has gone up

or it's getting a little bit more angry.

>> Um, whatever it is in their

relationship, what do they need to do

now? It's like it's not flooded yet.

>> Yeah.

>> But there's

>> best time to look at it, best time to

talk about it. There's a puddle.

>> So, what I do for a living in court

is I try to manipulate people's

emotional state. That's my job. Like, my

job is to go and make the judge like my

client, dislike the other side. I want

the other side to feel scared. I want my

client to feel safe. I want the court

reporter who's taking things down and

the court officer to like me and to like

my client so that when we take a break

in testimony and they go in the back

with the judge, they go, "I like Jim.

He's a really good lawyer." Or, "Oh, his

client seems so nice." Or, "Boy, the

other guy seems like a jerk." Or, "Boy,

that other lawyer is a jerk." Like so

I'm here manipulating people's emotional

state. That's my job. Like that's what a

trial lawyer does. We manipulate

people's emotional state. We play with

the levers, right? So I say this as to

say

we should be doing this in our

relationships. There's nothing nefarious

about that. These are tools and how you

use them will will give you a sense of

whether it's good or bad or what. Look,

if what you are doing is to maintain

connection, how you parse it is going to

be everything. So, even the way you just

said that, like, well, something's kind

of going wrong in the relationship.

Okay, we're already off to the wrong

narrative because when someone tells you

something's been done wrong, there's

this automatic defensive response of,

well, I didn't mean to do it wrong and

well, you know, it's not my fault that I

did it wrong. It brings out something

defensive in us rather than saying

something's changed. Have you noticed

that something changed? Have you noticed

that remember when we used to talk to

each other about you know sometimes like

and I don't know if it's something that

I've done and if it is you know I I I

really would appreciate you telling me

but like when we have been fighting

lately like that the tone seems to have

changed. Have you noticed that? Is it

just me? I now it's a non-defensive

dialogue. I'm not accusing you of

something. I'm noting that something has

changed. And by the way, good. We love

each look at how much we love each other

in that picture. Like look at put the

wedding photos up somewhere. Look at

that moment. We were nuts about each

other in that moment. We were everything

the other person ever wanted and more.

So anytime something has changed from

that, don't you want to know? Don't you

want to know? And by the way, not in an

accusatory fashion. The most common one

is we're not having sex as much as we

used to. We're not having sex. We're not

having much sex. I'm not getting as much

oral sex as I used to get. We're not

getting Okay, there's a way to say that

the way I just said it. That's just

going to blow up in your face. It's not

going to work because it's, well, well,

YOU HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS MUCH. WELL, I

HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS much cuz I'm

working so much and I don't see you

spending less. Well, you know, honestly,

if it comes down to that, I'd spend a

lot to not have you treat me this way.

Now, we're just having a fight. Whereas,

if we say like, oh, remember how clo

remember when we went away? I was just

thinking yesterday about when we went

away that weekend. Remember we ended up

not even leaving the room? It was so

fun. I love when we're like feeling that

connected and close, you know? I feel

like I feel like lately sometimes like

we're maybe not as connected and close

like and if there's something I'm I'm

doing that's making that like I I really

want to get it right. Like I really want

to get it right. You know, there's

something about

apologizing first, like having some

humility in relationship that has

tremendous value. Like when a lawyer

like I'll I'll tell you one of my trade

secrets. You know, I my job is a very

combative job sometimes. So, there's

times where being very aggressive is the

right move. But there's times where

being aggressive just doesn't accomplish

anything. And if I'm interacting with a

lawyer for the first time, this is

someone I haven't had cases with. So, we

don't know each other except by

reputation and they come at me really

hard, the first thing I'll do is

apologize. I'll say, "You know, I I I'm

sorry. I just have to say like your tone

like you're coming at me like it if I

said something in our initial

interaction that made you feel like that

I didn't have respect for you or that

you know I didn't value your perspective

or like it I have a tendency to

interrupt people sometimes I have a

tendency to so if I offended you I

apologize because the way that you're

kind of talking to me like I feel like I

must have said something wrong or I must

have so I apologize absolutely if I did

what is the per what choice do they have

but to then

Oh, no, no, that's that's just my tone.

That's just how I Oh, yeah, of course.

Look, hey, we all have a game face or I

just felt like, oh my god, like this

guy's coming at me so hard. Like I I

felt like I must have said something

inadvertently or, you know, and and then

everyone's kind of calmer now, you know?

So I think that this is a very easy way

to invite discussion about these small

preventative maintenance things without

turning it into a whole like because we

again we just think that oh if I bring

that up it's going to turn into a whole

thing. It doesn't have to turn into a

whole thing period.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I think I asked that in part

because I it's something that I I've

like subtly noticed that when we were

when we first met 7 years ago, we were

much more patient.

>> And I'm like, I probably need to have a

conversation about returning to being

more patient when we're trying to solve

problems. We kind of like rush through

them now. And I just I'm like, oh, you

play this forward.

>> You play this forward a decade or two

decades. I'm like, damn, we're really

not going to be great at solving

problems if we don't just like slow down

with them. Yeah. And

>> a lot of that just means like listening

to the other person's point of view a

bit bit more intently.

>> Yeah. And that's hard. That's hard

because you know your your brain moves

quickly. Like it's something I struggle

with in relationship for sure. Like any

kind of relationship is I'm very like

all right, come on. We got to land this

plane. Like let's go. Like skip to the

end. Time is money. Like what are we

what are we doing? Where are we going

with this? Like and I I'm terrible at

it. I interrupt people constantly. Like

I'm I'm not good at that. And it's

something I'm working on because I I I

think I know what they have to say next.

And I'm wrong a lot of the time,

especially in relationship, I'm wrong.

Like it's not a popular opinion to say

that men and women are different, but

men and women are different. And and and

I don't say that to say one is superior

and one is inferior. I say that to say

that we're different. We we navigate

things differently. We experience life

differently. We're treated differently

from a societal standpoint. We've had

different life experiences and I

genuinely believe that it would be very

valuable for us in relationship to to

sort of think, hey, I don't really know

everything about how this person is

wired. It took me fully

40 some odd years, if not 50, to figure

out that if I'm in a romantic

relationship with a woman and she comes

home and starts telling me about

something that's upsetting to her, that

she doesn't want what my male friends

want. Like if I called a buddy of mine,

if I called you, I've called you before.

If I called you and I said, "Stephen,

I'm having this problem, man. I'm

dealing with one of my sons and he's

doing XYZ." I ex if you went, "That must

be very hard, Jim. I'd be like, "Yes, it

is, Stephen. That's why I called you. Do

you have any suggestions? Like, what do

you think I should do here? Like, you're

a smart guy. I called you cuz I wanted

you to help me." Very often, that is the

opposite. Most women want you to hear

them. Give them some support. You guys

can have this conversation. A couple can

have this conversation. You can say,

"Hey, listen. right now in this moment,

we're not you're not coming to me with a

problem. But when you come to me with a

problem, my natural proclivity is to

start throwing solutions. And I've I've

learned or I I heard Stexton say on

Steven's show that, you know, maybe

that's not the best way. Do you find

that's true? Like, do you want me to

maybe like when you say these things,

could I because again, this is a job. I

want to be good at this job. Why Why is

it wrong for me to ask you how to how

can I be better at this job? I found it

really useful to state explicitly to my

fiance what my needs are in those

situations. And again, it didn't come

naturally to her and vice versa. Like it

didn't what she needs from me in those

situations

is the opposite of what I need from her

in those situations. I'm thinking

particularly when she's like going

through something and she's struggling

with something. She wants me to

be be present and she

um often wants like some advice on it

and she

and her advice is like the opposite of

mine often and in the inverse when I'm

going through those situations

I actually

don't want to talk about it at all.

>> Yeah.

>> I just wanted to be there.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But please,

>> she wants to talk about I don't want to

talk about it.

>> But what but what would be wrong with

saying in that moment?

I've got a menu.

I've got a menu for you. Can you tell me

which one you want? Cuz just like just

like you said, you're hungry. And I

said, "What are you hungry for? Do you

want sushi? Do you want me to make you

something? Do you want some cheese

toast? Do you want us to go out

someplace and we can get burgers? What

is it you want?" Right? Couldn't you

just say, "Hey, I've got a menu. I can

just listen and tell you I love you and

just be here. I can give you some

solutions and and how I might handle the

problem. I can try to distract you and

tell you a funny story about something

that happened to me today or I can pick

you up and tickle you. We can go in the

other room and roll around in the sheets

for a little while and take your mind

off it and then we can figure out which

of the other options you might want. We

can go for a walk together and we can

talk about it or not talk about it. What

would you like on the menu? Because

that's I'm serving all of those things

for you. Which one would you like? And

the worst thing she could say is, "I

don't know." And you go, "Okay, then I'm

going to pick one. I'm going to pick

one. And if it feels good, great. And if

it doesn't, you'll tell me, okay? And I

won't be offended." Like again, what'

that take, Stephen? 30 seconds. 30

seconds. Throw that out there. Like

that. That's instead of just blindly

throwing darts at the target, not

knowing where the target is.

>> If you had to give everybody listening

one relationship ritual that you would

think would most increase the

probability that they stay together,

stay in love.

>> What would that relationship ritual be?

>> I think that once a week you should make

a specific task of telling your partner

three things that you really like about

them.

And every week it should be something

different. I think you should tell your

partner if you really want to want to

take the advanced edition of this. If

you want to turn it from a 30- secondond

task into like a whole five minutes that

you devote to your relationship, you

know, I feel about relationship

maintenance the way that if you've ever

heard the story, I think the Daly Lama

is the one credited with saying it.

That's that a high high-end executive,

you know, paid a colossal amount of

money to have a private audience with

the Daly Lama. And the Daly Lama said to

him, you know, um, if you're searching

for inner peace, you should meditate for

15 minutes a day. And the executive

said, I don't have 15 minutes a day to

meditate. He said, then you should

meditate for an hour a day. I feel the

same way. If you don't have five minutes

a week to devote to your spouse or

partner, then you're going to need

hours. I think you should actually set

aside hours. Like five minutes a week, I

would suggest the following exact s just

systematic basic thing. This is what my

next book is about. out. It's about a

systematic approach to being good at

love. And the idea is

once a week, I think here's the advanced

version, but minimum just write down,

send an email, send a text, whatever it

is, tell your partner three things that

you love about them.

The advanced version is tell your

partner three things you love about

them. Tell them three times this week

that they made you feel loved. Here's

three things you did this week that made

me feel loved. Like here's three. When

you sent me that message and said that

made me feel so soft, that made me feel

very loved. Like whatever it is, I'm

sure you could find off the top of your

head three things that she did this week

that made you feel loved. And it's only

Monday.

>> People at home are in relationships

right now. They're hearing you say that

and some of them are still not going to

do it. Why do you think they're not

going to do it? Like what is that mental

conversation they're having where they

go?

>> I think we're I Well, I think we're I

think they think it's pointless. I think

they they might be at a point in their

relationship where it feels like what

would be the point we're so far gone it

wouldn't help. I think more than

anything my my real feeling on this the

secret that I don't think people want to

say out loud

I think we're terrified. I think we're

terrified. And I think what we're

terrified of is not

is not the future of our relationship. I

think what we're terrified of is that we

we feel like we're not worthy of love. I

think it's most people's fundamental

terror. I think most people's

fundamental fear is that if you knew me,

you wouldn't love me. If you could see

me, the real me, like the me that's in

here, all the weakness, all the fear,

all the horrible selfish thoughts, all

the perversity, all the all the darkest

things that are inside of me and every

single one of us that if you could if

you saw that, you couldn't possibly love

me. and

the feeling that comes with that which

is so you love the character I'm playing

that's not showing you all those things.

I'm just I'm just showing you the best

parts of myself. If you saw the real me,

you wouldn't really love me. I think our

greatest fear is that we're not worthy

of love. And I think that there's a part

of us that's afraid to like poke at what

do you love about me? What do I love

about you? How how what am I getting

wrong? Like again, like finishing that

exercise,

you know, here's some things. Here's

three things I love about you. Here's

three things you did this week that made

me feel loved. Here's three things I

could have done better. Or tell me three

things I could have done better. Or tell

your partner three things they could

have done better. And then if you want

to have a fun one thrown in there, cuz I

think you should end on fun stuff,

here's three things you did this week

that made me want to have sex with you.

>> I guess some people would

are listening right now and they're

thinking, well, you know, I'm I'm dating

Barry or they think I'm dating Joanne

and she is she is not verbally intimate

in this way. She would, if I suggested

this to her,

>> write it down. Don't do it. You don't

have to do it verbally. I think verbally

is too much pressure on people. But but

even written down, if I told Dave that

we're going to start writing these notes

to each other about three things I love,

he's going to cringe and he's

>> [ __ ] [ __ ] Honestly, really,

that's that's too hard. It's too much of

an ask. Like Dave, I don't care what

Dave does for a living. Dave could be a

ditch digger for a living who's not

articulate in any way. Dave is moving in

with you. Dave married you. Dave went

out and put his money on the counter and

bought a ring. Dave Dave can't name

three things he likes about you. Really,

Dave? Is that a big ask? Is that hard,

Dave? Like, come on. That I absolutely

call [ __ ] on that. Maybe he doesn't

want to. Okay, that's a different

conversation. Why don't you want to?

Why? What's uncomfortable about that for

you?

>> It is uncomfortable for some people,

isn't it?

>> Yeah, it's very uncomfortable for some

people.

>> It's quite interesting that you could be

in a loving relationship with someone,

but also be at some deeper level scared

of intimacy. And I'll be honest, because

it's just me and you, nobody's

listening.

>> Sure. Of course.

>> I think at some client privilege.

>> Yeah. I think at some level I've always

been scared of intimacy. It makes it

sound more conscious than it is,

>> but at some deeper level I've always

been, I don't know, a bit disconnected

intimately when it comes to like

uh being able to articulate

>> these things. We keep it simple. That

that's why I want to keep that simple. I

didn't say what is what is your love for

me rooted in and what is the nature of

our connection and how does it fit into

the broader context like I had a very

challenging relationship with my mother

growing up and I feel like you fill some

of the wounds that guys we don't need

like Sigman Freud doesn't have to show

up in the relationship

what are three we could do it right now

in this relationship what are three

things I like about you what are three

experiences you and I have had with each

other that made each other laugh. Like

we have a friendship. Like what a joy

that is by the way. Like what a joy it

is to sit across from someone and say,

"You know what I like about you?" [ __ ]

man. I I want to hear that list. Like

that's lovely.

>> Do you think the whole idea of people

being avoidant and sort of anxious? You

know, this attachment style and stuff.

Do is that does that stuff track to what

you've seen? It does. But you know, I I

also think too like I don't understand

why we treat our connections to other

people differently than things we are

like exercise. Exercise. Okay. Haven't

been to the gym in a while. You go to

the gym, you're going to be sore. You're

not going to be able to lift a lot.

You're going to have to start slow. And

for a couple days, you're going to be

sore. And if you go, oo, I that was I

was very sore after that. I'm not going

back to the gym. Okay. then you're never

going to get fit and you're never going

to get past the sore stage. Cuz if you

go, I'll wait a month and then I'll go

back and do the same thing again. Guess

what? You're just going to You have to

move through the uncomfortable part to

get to the part where it starts to feel

really good and you're not as sore.

Yeah, you'll sometimes still be sore.

You pushed it a little too hard. Maybe

worked out with Huberman that week. But

you know what? Other weeks like you go,

"Hey, I don't feel sore. I just feel

strong and healthy." So, there's going

to be moments where this might feel a

little weird. It might feel a little

awkward. It might feel a little sore.

There might be weeks where that kind of

a simple little practice feels a little

like, oh, it feels a little

uncomfortable. Or, yeah, the list of

things that you did this week that made

me feel loved, I have to reach for it.

Okay, great. Isn't that little

uncomfortable conversation that might

prevent slippage? Isn't that little

conversation better than the long-term

impact of having a distance start

growing between the two of you that

eventually becomes impossible to

navigate because it becomes a chasm

between the two of you?

>> Do you think the attachment style theory

has any truth to it from what you've

seen? Do you tend to find people are,

you know, there's some people that are

avoidant of intimacy, there's some

people that are anxious, there's some

people in the middle.

>> Yeah. I mean, look, I I think that we're

all creatures of our our upbringing, and

I think a lot of our I'm amazed as a

53-year-old man in therapy how often

a lot of my challenges are rooted in

seven-year-old Jim.

>> As a man that talks so much about love,

I'm I'm curious to know what it is that

you still struggle with in terms of, you

know, because I I mean, I know from my

own experience that I can know every I

can know so much. I sit here with

experts all day every day. It's not like

I don't know this stuff. Yeah.

>> But then putting it into practice is a

different task.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's why you'll never hear

me use myself in my relationships as an

example because I think you can be, you

know, an incredibly skilled person at at

the theory of something and then in its

practical application, you have your own

unique challenges. I think that using

yourself as the example and your

relationships as an example is dangerous

because I I learned it in my own

professional life when I had a very

friendly divorce. And so my experience

of divorce is the unique function of the

constitution of my ex-wife and of me and

of our unique circumstances that brought

us where we are. So if I use that as the

basis for my analysis of things, I think

it's a very shallow sample size. I I

know for me

my greatest challenge in every

relationship I've ever had, but even in

my my professional relationships is

acknowledging when I need help. I I

think because I was raised in an

environment where a lot of my needs

weren't met. My father was a very

serious alcoholic. My mother was trying

to tend to a very serious alcoholic.

when I needed something even from a very

young age I I felt a lot of shame

because it wasn't met with you know I'm

hungry for breakfast like of course let

me make you some breakfast it was met

with what you can't make your own

breakfast what's wrong with you and I

it was this guy yeah that was me that

was me Bruce Lee poster and my was Chuck

Norris up there um yeah this is probably

like

nine nine years old Okinawa and Goju Ryu

karate. This is my room. Yeah, I was

very um very lonely. I was really

lonely. I was really sad. And

um I loved martial arts because there

was this

very clear kind of masculinity on

display, like this protective, strong

superpower that you could build.

>> It wasn't just gifted to you. like you

didn't win the genetic lottery. Like you

could through discipline and practice

you could have this superpower that

would make you feel safe and and that

was what I obsessed about having.

There's still a lot of that that person

that young man still in me that is

afraid to ask for help. I wanted to be

someone who I could do do it all for

myself.

And I I I wish I could say looking back

that it was because that was my natural

proclivity is to want to be very

self-actualized, but it really was that

I was just absolutely sad and terrified

that if I asked I'd be shamed if I said

like could you be nice to me that the

answer would be no.

So I learned how to do everything like I

cook amazingly well. like I'm good at a

lot of things. I'm good at most things.

Almost anything I put my mind to I'm

good at. But it took me a lot of years

to figure out that that although that

has served me really well and it's built

my career and the security and safety

that came with being so successful and

having financial success and you know

now some level of notoriety.

It took me a long time to figure out

that that also has been the greatest

obstacle in my life. And I it it I'm

learning at the age of 53 that this guy

is like he's still there and talking to

me all the time. And I've learned now

again through my own therapy to say to

him like, "Oh, I hear you. Like, I hear

you. I'm glad you're still there. Like,

you don't have to be so scared anymore.

I'm not

I'm grateful to him.

I think that's the best thing to aspire

to is to make peace with that. Like I'm

sure in you

there is some little boy

like hiding in some part of his room

feeling very lost and very lonely. And I

don't think there's anything wrong or

weak or not masculine or not strong

about acknowledging that that's still a

voice in your head.

And acknowledging that that voice in

your head, like it it brought you where

you are, but it also held you back in

some ways. And you're never going to get

rid of it. But maybe what you'll do is

hear it for what it is, which is is it's

a voice that was once there really

important to save you. and it did a

really good job of that. But that it's

okay. Like it's okay. You don't have to

beat that out of you, but you don't have

to listen to it either. You don't have

to let it drive the car.

>> I was thinking as you were speaking

about how those of us that Do you want

me to take this foot back?

>> Oh, but it's great. It's fun to see that

guy. I It's funny that you you pulled

that out. I have to tell you, I I It's a

lovely It's a lovely thing.

I think there's something to learn from

those versions of oursel.

Like if you hang out with kids,

you you just see like

>> they don't have all that hate in their

heart. They hate naps. It's the end of

the list. Like everything else like they

just want to like love each other and

hug each other and play. And when they

like think they hurt someone, they stop

and they're very scared cuz they didn't

mean to. And then we turn into these

creatures that are just attacking each

other all the time, you know? And I

think at the end of the day, like all we

want is that. Like all we want is to

just be like that warm, open version of

ourselves before the world beat the [ __ ]

out of us. And maybe that's what love's

supposed to be. Like maybe what love is

is an opportunity for us to like

reconnect to that part of ourselves that

was just so simple. Like I just want you

to love me. I want to be loved by you. I

want you to feel worthy of my love. I

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I was thinking about how um there's a

lot of people that at a very early age

had to be very independent for whatever

reason. Maybe a parent wasn't around.

Maybe in your case, you know, I've

heard, you know, doing this podcast, you

get a bit of pattern recognition where

you you sometimes think, oh, okay, so if

one of the parents was an alcoholic,

>> adult children of alcoholics were were I

remember reading the book recovery,

adult children of alcoholics, I stumbled

on it when I was in college in a

bookstore and I remember reading it and

going, have they been reading my diary?

Like what the holy because there was

this profile of like one of the types

one of the archetypes of adult children

of alcoholics is that you yeah control

control

like wanting to control everything

because life feels so chaotic when you

live with an alcoholic. When the person

who is supposed to be your primary

caregiver and the primary mechanism for

you to feel safe feels unpredictable and

chaotic and that is that creates in you

this constant sense of a heightened you

know heightened sense of I need to hold

on as tight as I can and also that drove

you to be incredibly independent.

>> Yeah.

Independence and connection seem to be

on like two ends of the spectrum. And I

say this in part because I look at

>> I look at all my friends that are very

very very independent and I would say

that they typically struggle the most to

form relationships because they've kind

of built their own

>> castle with a moat.

>> Yeah.

And generally if we zoom out on this

point of independence and dependency

>> I would say that the narrative in

society over the last I know 10 20 years

or whatever has been

>> pointed at glorifying independence and

not dependency. Dependency is like not

cool. It's like be your own boss start

your own business down on your own two

feet.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I so I used to view

I would say the defining characteristics

of my 30s and 40s

was the belief that there were two

versions of Jim Sexton.

One was the one that was the most

forward- facing at that time which was

lead pipe cruelty and mercenary

sensibility. Like I'm I'm I'm going to

do this job. I'm going to do it really

well. I'm going to get better and better

at it. I'm going to just take my skill

set and weaponize it and that's who I'm

going to be. And then there was this

other part of me that was always there.

I kind of stuffed it in the closet for a

while that like gets misty eyed when I

talk about love and cries when I think

about dogs and, you know, watches Love

on the Spectrum and can't make it

through an episode without weeping three

or four times. Like this very soft,

gentle, loving, compassionate,

empathetic, sensitive part of me. And I

felt like they were two waring forces.

There were two versions of me. And the

question was, how can I beat that soft

little, you know, wuss out of me and be

the final form, which is like the me

that's a machine that can just do it

like that can just do what needs to be

done and do it in a way that nobody else

can do. And I'm very blessed that I am

in my line of work. what yoyo ma is in

cello like in a courtroom

I have a god-given talent and I remember

thinking okay that's the final form of

me is a master in the courtroom and and

everything else is just what do I need

to do to get there I remember my ex-wife

saying to me you know you will never

love any woman as much as you love the

law like every woman who you ever meet

for the rest of your life will be

playing second fiddle to how much you

love being in a courtroom. You're great

in a courtroom and you have no idea what

to do in your living room. Like in your

living room, you're just totally

paralyzed. Whereas in a courtroom, you

know every it has why it has defined

rules. It has a cadence. I know what the

goal is. Like I know exact it's

controlled chaos. I'm great at it. So

there was a part of me that went, okay,

there's this soft, warm, wonderful,

lovely, empathetic side of me, and then

there's this real successful, and that's

the one that got me everywhere. That's

the one that got me everything I have.

So I have to figure out how to get rid

of this one and keep this one. Like,

and for my entire 30s and most of my

40s, that was my primary thing was

trying to figure out how to get rid of

that part of me. And no matter how

loudly I blared 9-in nails on on on on

my headphones and tried to become a

machine, I couldn't get rid of that part

of me. And then I came to realize, I

think in part because of this work. I

think because of like somehow I stumbled

into

being in a position where I end up

talking about feelings a whole lot. And

it's somehow I I I got brought in to

have go here's this interesting divorce

lawyer who's going to talk about divorce

stuff and somehow ended up talking a lot

about love and softness and warmth and

compassion.

>> I didn't think it somehow

>> Yeah. No, exactly. And what I came to

learn from that from from giving that

voice

is that there actually isn't two waring

forces. It's two very authentic aspects

of self that have to exist inside of me.

And each one of them creates the other

in some ways. Like I don't think I'd be

anywhere near as good of a lawyer and

courtroom advocate if I didn't have a

tremendous sensitivity and empathy and

couldn't put myself in the heads of the

various people in the room. So I think

that when we start to see what seems

like opposite traits in us instead as

authentic representations of aspects of

who we are that we have to learn how to

do let them dance, let them move

together in some way. And there's times

where this guy should take the lead. And

there's times where that very focused

self that you know is very

missiondriven, that person should lead.

And and for men in particular, like

we've been taught a rigidity. Like the

gender role for men has a tremendous

rigidity. I mean, I grew up in a time

where you either got to be Clint

Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were

your two choices. You either had to be,

you know, like icy 100% or you had to

be, you know, you could be warm and

fuzzy, but then you were just not really

masculine. And I just don't think that's

the case. Like you look at like I've

spent 20 years on the Brazilian

jiu-jitsu mat. I have to tell you like

there are some dudes could snap your

neck with like any with their thumb and

they're some of the warmest most lovely

people because these are all authentic

aspects of self. And to know that like

the soft warm version of me feeding it,

letting it spend some time letting it be

in conversation, it it makes me better

at the other part. It makes me more

authentic. It makes me better at that

part. And by the way, letting that part

out, it hasn't done anything to diminish

this part. So when you start to see it

that way, I I really think that there's

a tremendous

broader menu of possibilities out there.

I've got several friends in my life that

have really struggled with relationships

and love. And uh for all those people

that have really really struggled in

love and they look around at everybody

else and everybody else seems to have

worked it out or at least be working

through a situation but they look at

themselves and go, "It just doesn't work

for me. What's going on? Why am I the

only one in my friendship group that

hasn't found love or isn't in a

relationship?" And they kind of beat

themselves up about it. I think that's a

great starting point. Why is this

happening to me? and start looking at

when did it start happening and what's

the consistent thread through all of it

and are there people that I could ask

that question of who know me and love me

and would be willing to tell me honestly

and if there aren't great what are some

resources out there in terms of the

wisdom of other people that might share

that experience I think there's so many

entry points to that conversation with

yourself I think the start is to

identify that yeah I'm drowning like

what here's what the solution is not is

to pretend everything's fine. And that's

the ecosystem we've created.

We're we're living our gag reel and

watching everyone's greatest hits. And

we're encouraged all day long to tell

everyone how great we're doing and how

we're crushing it and how great we feel

and how focused we are. Because why?

Because we're terrified that if we said,

"I don't know. I feel like I'm drowning.

I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. I

have moments where I feel so put

together and then I have moments where I

think I'm drowning. And and by the way,

when people have that kind of honesty,

there's something so beautiful about it.

Like I have to tell you, like one of the

things that people say about me when I

go, I don't understand why anything I'm

saying resonates with anybody. People

are like, "Dude, you're so real. It's so

real. It's so blunt and honest and like

real." This is it's in every one of us

is that same realness, that same basic

just all it is is just saying out loud

like, "Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

Like, I don't have it all figured out."

AND THAT'S OKAY CUZ I HAVE SOME THINGS

really figured out. So maybe if I've got

these things really figured out and

you've got these other things really

figured out and we're just stop

bullshitting each other for five minutes

and instead go, you know, I'm doing

great on this, but like this I feel like

I'm a train wreck on. Like every high

achieving friend I have, every celebrity

friend I have, every per I have friends

who people look at them and go, "Oh,

dude, he is murdering it." Like you're

my friend. People look at you, they go,

"He's murdering it." There are aspects

of your life that you're like, "I got to

work on that." There's tons of aspects

of my life where I go, I got to work on

that. Like I I figured all these other

things out, but I haven't figured that

out yet. And you know what? It's so

lovely to have that conversation. Like

why why can't we just make some space

for that all of us a little bit more? I

don't think it's that hard.

It's at least as important as our

workout routine. It's at least as

important as remembering someone's

birthday.

>> Yeah. I I I wonder why that I wonder why

it is that we um there's so little space

for us to work on our connection

challenges

these days.

>> It hasn't been prioritized. We become

what we behold. We prioritize what we've

been told to prioritize. We've been told

to prioritize conspicuous consumption.

>> We've been taught that the measure of a

person is is how much financial success

they have. That's why I genuinely

believe that if we continue to barrel

along

using this the metric of success being

financial above all else really

consumption, what we own, what we wear,

what we have or how we look, right? as

the priority, we're barreling towards

nothing. Whereas if we were to change

that and say, hey, like joy, peace,

finding some peace within ourselves,

finding some balance that feels right to

us individually.

>> I think that's a really good simple word

which people don't think about enough

when they're thinking about the KPIs of

success in their life, which is how do I

feel? And I think we've all grown up in

different contexts learning to tune out

of how I feel and in its place put how

does the world feel about me as like the

primary metric. And it's like I I was

thinking the other day that actually,

you know, we can go do all these

podcasts and books and whatever else,

but we were all born with this sort of

internal compass that tells you every

day how you feel, but like none of us

tune into it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And actually the metric

becomes like how many followers do you

have? How rich are you? How

>> it's beaten out of us by the world. Like

I I I will tell you, you always get the

most emotional stuff out of me, Stephen.

I will tell you my most shameful moment

as a parent.

So I have two sons. They're 26 and 28.

28-year-old just got married in

September. He's a lawyer. He's awesome.

He must have been five or six.

and something happened

like and he was he started crying like

someone hurt his feelings or something

happened but it wasn't I don't know it

wasn't that big of a deal like it it to

me at the moment I mean I was in my 20s

he was 24 when I I was 24 when he was

born so yeah I was in my 20s and he was

crying he was crying and like I wanted

him to stop crying because it made me

sad to see him cry like I love him so

much like that I was like it made me so

uncomfortable able to see him crying.

And I remember I like I like grabbed

him, not roughly, I grabbed him and I

just looked at him and I was like,

"Control yourself." I'm like, "Control