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>> All right, bro. David, what's up?

>> Thanks for having me back on. Yeah,

>> my pleasure.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, you're the one that's closest to

the flame, so tell me what's going on.

>> Oh, I know, right? So, uh, living a

nightmare is what I tell my friends. So,

it's definitely um been a tough several

years or so. And uh you know last time

we were on uh just testified in front of

Congress and uh the UAP Disclosure Act

of 23 was you know possibly getting

passed. It failed to get passed and then

I um based on you know things I know

about the Biden administration, things I

heard from the White House, I decided to

kind of lay low for a year. So 24 I

didn't do too much. And then uh

Representative Burlson had this crazy

idea to to hire me as a professional

staff member for Congress working for

him. Uh turns out I guess I was like the

first guy that ever testified in front

of Congress as a whistleblower and then

being subsequently hired by Congress. Um

I was the first guy to ever do that

which is very interesting and very cool.

And I I do thank Burlson for um you know

his leadership on that. And so I did

that for about a year and a half. um

just finished up actually. I was like,

you know what? I'm staying longer than I

thought. You know, I'm going to wait

until Labor Day, see where things are. I

worked pretty hard over uh uh summer

recess in August and and decided uh to,

you know, wind down some of my

activities because I accomplished a lot

of my objectives. We can get into that

obviously and then uh kind of move into

I'll call it my next phase of

operations, which includes a little

break for me. Um it's been very tiring.

I've been kind of, you know, going full

throttle for the last couple years and

whatnot. And so we're really at a, I

think, a poignant moment in US history

with what Trump's done and the things

you've seen in the media and whatnot.

And there's a lot of other stuff

happening behind the scenes because, you

know, a lot of my work has been private

behind the scenes, you know, working for

Congress, specifically Representative

Burlson.

>> So, let me ask you the environment. So,

are there some people in Congress that

are interested in disclosure of this

stuff and pursue you and want to find

out information and want you to tell

them what what's going on and and then

are there other people that are

resisting this? Yeah, I think there's a

big bifurcation of the non-believers and

then kind of the UAP caucus. Although

you see more and more people kind of

signing on to the cause like I did a

presser back in June in front of the

capital with members and we even had

Brigider General retired uh

representative Scott Perry there who was

on the House Intelligence Committee from

my home state of PA and it was good to

see other members, you know, start

showing that they support the cause. But

it has been challenging behind the

scenes and I had many skiff classified

meetings with the members kind of going

over the topological history of this

topic and and some of the deeper darker

kind of you know criminal stuff I bumped

into and how I worked with DOJ to kind

of highlight some of that stuff and

that's what

>> kind of criminal stuff.

>> Yeah. So, uh, when I was, um, looking

into this, and I have to be very

respectful of, uh, my participation in

this because it's an ongoing thing with

DOJ. Um, I was, you know, following the

money, bumping into other activities.

Um, very much like, actually, it's sort

of related. And if you saw in the news

that David Rush, very similar name to

me, it's kind of uh, freaky, uh, but he

was arrested with $40 million of gold

bars. He was a CIA officer. where he

made a fake uh continuity of government

special access program and you know he

went under the radar basically um doing

his own thing and getting gold and

Rolexes and stuff and the FBI raided his

house back in May. True true story.

Yeah, the guy has a

>> is that gold bars?

>> He has he had $40 million of gold bars.

>> Where did he get the gold bars

>> from the agency?

>> They have them laying around.

>> Yeah. I can't get into all the details

of why the government

>> Hold on. The government has gold bars.

>> Yeah. And this guy just snatched him.

>> Yeah. He made I don't know all the

details, but he made a fake continuity

of government special access program

that nobody was briefed into. He like,

you know, papered it and uh nobody at

the CIA questioned what he was doing.

And he was like, "Well, I need, you

know, 40 million in gold bars because of

the special continuity of government

activity."

>> Wait, wait, wait. So that's how they

fund some things in gold bars.

It's almost like uh in Afghanistan when

I was over there, I'd have guys with

briefcases full of $100,000 in cash cuz

you have to pay for things, right?

>> So,

>> but that kind of makes more sense to me

than lugging around gold.

>> Yeah.

>> What does like 40 million in gold bars

look like?

>> Uh I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot.

I mean, it's really

>> Can I see what that looks like?

>> It's approximately 303 gold bars that

each weigh approximately 1 kilogram a

piece.

>> Yo, that's a lot of weight. Yeah, I was

looking for a picture. There's only like

AI photos of it

>> at least that I could find.

>> So, a kilogram is 1.2.2 lb.

>> Yeah. 2.28 or something.

>> That's crazy.

>> 600.

>> He's got 600 lb of gold.

>> Yeah.

>> Where the do you put? So, he just

had it in his house.

>> He did have it at his house and he

laying around.

>> Bunch of Rolexes and all that. And

>> Oh, so he was just going crazy.

>> Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really

going to use the gold for, but that

that's an open-ended thing. And he was

he was pretending that he was using it

for some disclosure type deal or did it

have anything to do with UAPs?

>> Uh not that I'm aware of, but that same

ecosystem I bumped into. So his

fabricated program was a continuity

government program. So that's like, you

know, if something bad happens,

>> people are going to a hideout site, you

know, sanitized location,

>> right?

>> And so what I bumped into unfortunately

was like the deep underbelly of the

federal government. We can get into it.

It's it's a lot of stuff I've never

talked about because it's just very

terrifying and I you know I've been

through a lot of a lot of crazy and

I ended up bumping into a criminal

enterprise uh run out of a particular

agency and um it was basically um

getting money through certain criminal

endeavors the most unspeakable type of

criminal endeavors under the cover of uh

certain national security programs.

That's about as

>> When you say certain unspeakable

>> Yeah.

>> You mean like what do you mean like

trafficking?

>> Yeah.

>> Like child trafficking.

So the government was involved in child

trafficking for money.

>> Officers of the government. That's true.

Yeah. It's it's up. I uh I

briefed members in a classified setting

all the details. Um, and I I'm

highlighting that because

this is how serious this issue is is

there's an ecosystem and there's a lot

of good people are on these programs in

terms of the the UAP side. Yeah. And I

know a lot of them. They're friends of

mine. They're patriotic people doing

their duty, but there is like a small

little cast system of characters um that

are part of this larger ecosystem of uh

no holds barred. we're going to do what

we want and you know we're going to do

whatever kind of criminal activity to

get a washed money uh for our cutouts

like so a good example of course would

be Iran Contra right which is very

famous 86 and the CIA was engaged in

those kind of activities and this has

all been exposed all over north and all

that to fund the contras weapons

purchases procurement etc and a lot of

that you know seemed to uh possibly be

drug trafficking the government never

confirmed that but you look at Barry

Seal and and his um uh statements in the

80s and 90s and and it's likely that

that um probably occurred, you know.

>> Yeah. It was all through Freeway Ricky

Ross.

>> Yeah, that's right.

>> Yeah. Ricky's been on the podcast

multiple times.

>> That's right. That's right.

>> Yeah. He was on what is it like two

years ago, year and a half ago. Last

time he was on. Um

>> it's funny cuz he's out now. Uh became

an attorney while I was in jail. Found

out learned to read first. Okay.

Couldn't read. became an attorney in

jail, found out that they tried him. You

know that triple jeopardy, three strikes

thing.

>> Yeah.

>> They tried him incorrectly. They used

that incorrectly because it's supposed

to be three different times you were

arrested instead of like three crimes

that were attached to one arrest. So, he

gets out of jail. Now, he sells legal

weed.

>> All right. All right.

>> Lovely guy. But he he's a great guy, but

he had no idea that he was selling

cocaine to fund the Contra versus the

Sandinistas.

>> Interesting. He had no idea. He thought

that he was just a a slick character

that just knew what he was doing and

was, you know, he didn't realize that

the CIA was literally allowing him to do

it. Then we've also had Michael Roupert

on the podcast. You know who he is?

>> No.

>> Michael Roupert was the LA narcotics

officer that on uh I believe it was on

C-SPAN. He went on C-SPAN during a

hearing and he exposed the entire or

organization selling drugs in South

Central Los Angeles because he was

involved in it. He was involved in like

busting people that were doing it and

then they told him he has to leave it

alone because it was the CIA.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And so when I bumped into

that stuff, you know, I immediately

worked at Department of Justice.

>> That's one level, but like child

trafficking is another level.

>> I know, man. It's it's really up

and and there's a lot of details that

are I have a lot more questions than

answers and and I you know I worked with

the OJ and you know from what I

understand uh I got a gold star in a

brief to Cash Patel about it last year.

I wasn't in the briefing, but I, you

know, I I was told I got kudos, but it

was very disturbing. And so, like,

obviously, a lot of these programs are

legal in the sense that there's in terms

of UAP stuff, there's, you know,

classified executive orders back in the

day that covers them and

>> and they're upstanding citizens and we

could we could litigate like, you know,

uh, Congress wasn't necessarily brought

into the fold enough from an oversight

perspective, etc. But, you know, the

core of the program, you know, does have

uh a legal beginning, but when you don't

have oversight, unfortunately, certain

small pockets of people start doing

that they shouldn't have. And I and

unfortunately,

>> I got deeply ins snared in that. There

was a very small group of people that

uh, you know, pushed me over the edge

and I had to do what I got to do to to

you know, protect myself. And I never

wanted to be a whistleblower. You know,

I was a deeply entrenched, you know,

15-year intel officer, military officer

in the Air Force. You know, I was

working some of the country's most

sensitive issues. You know, started

going to the White House to brief the

National Security Council in my mid20s

on space issues back during the Obama

administration. And and in 2019 when I

joined the UAP task force and I was

tasked to investigate this, I was like,

"Sure, I'll look into it." you know, the

special access program or black program

community has a lot of dysfunction and

and maybe some stuff wasn't reported,

you know, you know, correctly and and I

didn't know really what I was going to

find, but if there was a US program, you

know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably

get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd

have like a mafia meeting and and uh you

know that and I know why it was

protected the way it is and whatnot. But

unfortunately

about a year and a half about October

2020 is when kind of my life changed and

particular individuals instead of coming

to me who knew me by the way personally

I know I know them personally now Dave

you're bumping into something you know

I'm going to defensively brief you this

is what it is or hey I'm going to slide

an NDA sign this and I'll read you in

and my colleagues and I joked about that

like we're bumping in the

eventually somebody's going to knock on

my door in my office and be like, "Hey,

I need to talk to you." And

unfortunately, that never happens. Um,

it's really tragic because that would

have been an easier way. But, um, I

immediately got administratively nuked

in October 2020 and basically they went

after everybody around me. Uh my boss at

the National Reconnaissance Office as

you know Major Gush the Air Force

officer in the reserves got walked out

of NRO headquarters in Chantelli,

Virginia under fabricated

uh personal conduct things and and they

went after, you know, my chief of staff

who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15

and and co-workers, people they thought

were my enablers, right? And um and I

thought, okay, I could fight this.

They're bringing up like my mental

health stuff, which we've talked about

before, Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I

reported it. I was cleared of, you know,

no problems. Kept my top secret

clearance, and I still have my top

secret clearance, but it got very,

very um

scary in early 2022. And I've avoided

talking about this for a long time. And

I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023,

you know, I was, you know, I'm I'm here

in fear for my life, etc. Well, you

know, I'm not talking about the criminal

stuff. I found stuff that's happened in

my personal life and stuff. And so, back

in early 2022,

um everything's fine. Uh started uh

noticing some suspicious activity um

near where I live and I didn't think

much of it. Thought it was kind of

strange. And I don't want to quite go

into all the details, but basically

um later one particular day

uh I was sent a message that they can

touch me and my wife and they they're

they know where we are and they

>> and what do you think this was

particular? Was this because of the

child trafficking stuff? Was this

because of some other illegal activity

with no oversight? you know, in private

environments, I was asked what what red

line, what trip wire did I cross? To

this day, I don't know specifically. I

suspect uh based on them, what turns out

they were monitoring my classified

computer at work, uh my re my

investigation notes that I would keep

encrypted on there. I think they were

very worried that I figured out a lot of

things. And I I still don't know for

sure though, like and it and there's a

lot of other things too. I guess I'm

kind of jumping around because um in

early 2021, you know, certain people

that were helping me and I was talking

to started to experience uh Havana

syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous

health incidents. And I know a lot about

that. That's another kind of ecosystem I

was an expert in in the government. And

of course, my first thing is like, huh?

Uh, did you piss off the Russians or

Chinese or some other kind of foreign

intelligence service or because you

don't think domestic. And I'm like, what

did you do in your career? Were you on

covert action programs? Did you like,

you know, bomb some, you know,

adversaries building and they're pissed

off at you and they hold a grudge? And

so I noticed that I wasn't going to

equate that to the topic. And

uh but I I was very nervous about that

because people I know uh were starting

to experience those symptoms

specifically uh microwave directed

energy most likely just based on um

certain tradecraftraft they were doing

to detect it which I won't get into the

details of that and then the their

symptomology so to speak and uh so that

was frightening and in in that 2021 time

frame I was sitting at home I was

getting you know investigated ated by

three agencies and um I really didn't

know what was going on. A lot of my

colleagues were kind of continuing on

that investigation on on on my behalf

and eventually in late 2021 NGA hired me

as a 15 off the street. Kind of came

back into government full-time. I was

hoping um that agency would protect me

against uh you know the CIA and the NRO

and and certain elements of the DoD that

were going after me because of these

couple antagonists that were trying to

you know basically um push me over the

edge administratively. But

what what I crossed the Rubicon in early

2022 when I was sent a message and it

was this the same day I was sent a

message other people got that message

too. So it was coordinated

geographically

and of course you know I reported that

to federal law enforcement count

intelligence element and at the time I'm

like well you know there was a one

adversarial intelligence agency that had

an interest in me several years ago and

I had a little incident that was

actually kind of funny. Um so I wasn't

sure if it was like the US government or

even if it was related um to the my

investigation. And then several several

uh weeks later

and I was I get chills talking about

this cuz it's it's kind of upsetting. Um

I was uh in DC um for a conference on

UAP actually uh for my for my agency NGA

at the time and I got summoned to an

offbooks

uh Senate Intel committee uh we'll call

it meeting in their you know their skiff

right their their vault where you can

talk classified information and certain

individuals were there known to me um

great credentials people I've known for

a while uh in my line of work and so was

you know a dozen dozen and a half uh

senior staff for Marco Rubio Mark

Wernern you know etc right and

in that meeting uh we you know we talked

about the legacy program the history

many hours and I'm going to fly on the

wall like this is really for Senate

staff I'm just kind of sitting in the

back and you know they turned to staff

and they you know they pointed at me and

they're like um oh by the way you know

the these couple individuals and they

and they named the individuals. I'm

like, I know who they are. Um

uh they uh wanted to kill you and um I

know Lu Alazand talked about it, but

why?

>> I do not know that for sure. I think

well so um

be careful what I say. Uh there are

certain presidential findings that allow

certain things to protect critical

things in the government. And my

assessment is I was getting so close to

exposing it because I was sort of

preparing my inspector general's uh

report to the IG that um I must have

crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still

would like to know and I hope these

people are you know uh brought to

justice and that's you know my wish and

dream and hopefully Department of

Justice does what's needed. But

>> there's an investigation ongoing right

now.

>> Yes. on that. And that's all I'll say

defensively not to interfere with that.

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>> Okay. How much of this do you think has

to do with actual UAP disclosure and how

much of it has to do with a lack of

oversight that allowed people to do

illegal activities? I think some problem

children decided to abuse some standing

options to protect, you know, critical

infrastructure in the United States,

which, you know, for example, that would

be like a Air Force flight line, a ICBM

silo, um, other activities. And they

decided, um, I was some sort of threat.

And it's it's so disgusting because I

you know like I said I was a fieldgrade

officer in the air force. I was a you

know GS15 a CIA colon equivalent

civilian and I'm sitting there in Senate

chambers and I'm hearing this and I

won't get into all the details. in it a

lot. I heard like you know all the

details on that and I don't want to like

um burn my sources and and I just

remember how upset the Senate staff was

and to the point where you know a

particular staffer um who's very senior

went to his office and got some whiskey

and you know all of them started

drinking in the skiff because it's like

everybody was afraid like are they

serious? or like they literally were

thinking about killing Dave and

like and and and I found out that there

was a kibash to that. It's a longer

story for someday if I could ever, you

know, discuss the whole the whole

history. And

>> so it was considered but then it was

kibos.

>> Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was

stopped and I I owe some people a debt

of gratitude literally. And um and this

was just a few weeks after, you know, I

was sent a message and and even after

the meeting um we were finding stuff and

other people were finding stuff um to

let people know that they're being

tracked. And I know this sounds like so

crazy and all that, but

>> Well, so does someone having $40 million

in gold hanging out their house and a

bunch of Rolexes. Never did I think, you

know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love

serving America. You know, it hurts me

every day not having the uniform

anymore. And knowing that was the level

that they thought about going to because

of this interesting interpretation of

certain standing options. And I and

eventually in this disclosure process, a

lot of that will come out. I just have

to be careful what I say now until, you

know, the the president figures out how

to, you know, release some of this

history, unfortunately. So,

>> understood. Yeah. So, one of the things

that we talked about before, so you were

scheduled for another podcast a while

back, but flights got cancelled when we

moved it today, but you were saying that

it's actually fortuitous that it was

rescheduled.

>> Yeah. A lot of things are happening. I

see the administration getting really

really serious on this and I think

people don't appreciate the courage that

Trump is is is showing right now uh

ordering the government to release

everything we know about this topic.

It'll be

>> courage how so like you think he's in

danger from releasing this information?

>> Not necessarily, but it's it's

um the ontological shock and the history

coming out and sort of the outrage. I

mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of

like in post 911 America after the

towers fell, right? You have the the

fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist

attacks, but you also have this like

uniting uh panacea that kind of brings

people.

>> You think that is equivalent to what's

happening right now?

>> It will be and I think

>> going to happen.

>> So, I believe uh before Trump Trump's

term ends that it's all going to come

out. What does that mean?

>> Everything I've testified about, you

know, the fact that, you know, we've

been studying this for a while. We've

recovered material aka intact

semi-intact craft. We've, you know,

recovered this anomalous intelligence

piloting the craft. And, you know, we

are reverse engineering that. And

obviously, there's other parts to that.

It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot

of people who are just release it all,

show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour

don't appreciate the care that we're

going to have to um proceed with because

this is not a static ecosystem. This

isn't just like archaeology where you're

digging up stuff. There is you are

dealing with you know third parties both

human you know adversarial countries

etc. they have their own program. Then

you have, you know, our this anomalous

intelligence, our visitors, NHI,

whatever you want to call them,

ultraterrestrial, depending on which

taxonomy in the tree that you want to um

ascribe some of this origin to. And and

of course, you know, the the national

security related technology that has

been derived, we've derived great stuff

to defend America. I've had exposure on

that and you know, I'm very

>> re it through back engineering.

>> Yeah.

>> 100%.

>> Yes. Well, some of it it it was

inspiration. It wasn't a a onetoone like

we we we unlocked the iPhone. It was

like, "Huh, that's an interesting

material. Look at that um frequency

selective surface property. You know

what? We could use that for an aerospace

application or whatever." And so, a lot

of it was garnered via inspiration, not

one to one. Yeah. In some cases, I

suppose we did, but like that's been

most of it. Yeah. So what's the holdup

in terms of disclosure?

>> I necessarily can't read the president's

mind. Uh there's certainly a uh

multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I

mean so we're in this this issue now

where once we cross the Rubicon then we

affect allies and adversaries. You know

our adversaries have programs. What are

they going to tell their citizenry? You

have uh possible theological distress

Vatican etc. And I'm, you know, I'm a

Catholic and I I certainly appreciate

uh the Vatican's long study on this

subject and they just stayed quiet on

what they know. And so it's there's a

lot of like collateral effects if you're

not careful with certain stuff. you you

can you know trigger a response and

there is great fear that uh I don't

necessarily believe in this but like

there has been assessments in the past

that you know revealing certain things

may you know trigger a response from a

third party

>> trigger a response from them from these

>> possibly entities yes and that is a

>> that has been written up uh government

think tanks wrote that up in reports to

previous presidents

>> so the the the theory is that we

disclosed

people are now aware of it all over the

globe and they decide to show

themselves.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real

fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll

say. And Oh, boy. You know, and

it's one of those things where

I I'm trying to walk the line and be as

diplomatic as possible and also trying

to prepare the populace at the same time

because clearly the government hasn't

right now. And I mean, Trump wants it

out for sure. His team needs to be

astute enough to know what to ask for.

Uh, you know, massage the deep state and

and get that information because we just

saw Tim Bchett on Benny Johnson's

podcast talk about uh Steven Miller

called him and was like, "Hey, I'm

getting blocked like physically blocked

from access to a lot of this stuff."

And, you know, that's very concerning. I

I would say Steven Miller is an alpha

dog. He's a pitbull. And as a fellow

alpha, I do appreciate his

>> That's a silly thing to say. You know

that, right?

>> What?

>> A fellow alpha.

>> Fellow alpha.

>> Opens yourself up to like tremendous

amounts of ridicule.

>> Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's

perfect and I know everybody has their

faults, but I do appreciate

>> the ferveny. he is attacking the issue

behind the scenes and I just I think he

needs guided the right way and informed

and and kind of how how to cut this

deal. You know, like

>> I met him very briefly at the UFC event

at the White House and he told me that

it's going to come out. I'm like, okay,

>> that's good. Well, there you go.

>> It was really quick.

>> Yeah.

>> Was like he's like, I'm just I know

you're interested in this. This is

literally all we talked about.

>> The UFO thing is going to come out.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, okay, when when's that coming out?

Let's go.

>> Exactly. and and and and Trump

understands the subject pretty good and

you know he's in the know and

he understands some of the implications.

So I like I said he has a lot of courage

because this is likely going to change

society in a big way. I can't necess I'm

not like a social anthropologist or a

psychiatrist like I can't necessarily

predict in what specific ways it might

reduce you know feudal nation state peer

competition and other things. Uh, but it

is going to change and I and I think

when people look back at this interview,

it's gonna be very haunting because I

think in short order, you know, before

Trump leaves office, we're going to be

in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a

very pessimistic, cynical person. A lot

of my friends know that. But I I have

great confidence that the president is

doing the right thing. And I I I feel um

there's eventually going to there the

people that are in charge of this are

going to have to comply with the the

president's order. And uh but there's a

right way of of doing this, I think. And

I, like I said, I'm not some sick of fan

for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower,

obviously. And you know, I have um

philosophical differences about how this

was kept and how they could possibly

reveal stuff. But I I am surprisingly

confident, which is which is kind of

weird for me to say because I just see

the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious.

Um there's other people in government

serious. I mean, even see Aaron Lucas,

the PDDNI, the deputy director of

national intelligence, you know, sign

these big NDA waiverss. It includes like

any kind of waiver of not even telling

the president, sorry, you have to tell

us kind of thing. And and so you you're

seeing kind of the the chess board being

set. I know everybody's not happy with

the tranches coming out with the

lowhanging fruit videos and and

recordings and stuff. And Representative

Burlson and I before I left his office

recently got um a 1952 recording that

was still classified from Blue Book

talking about the seriousness of this

issue and all the crazy that

they're seeing near nuclear sites and

test ranges, which is interesting

because in in uh that video that's been

declassified, it mentions the very sites

that in modern day have that same

anomalous activity to include stuff in

the Southwest. So I can't say where it's

in the ecosystem in the open source, but

the the executive branch hasn't

acknowledged what specific test and

training range. They're seeing crazy

orbs that they can't explain this acost

helicopters and and all that. So

>> um so is Trump experiencing resistance

in your opinion?

>> Yes. Um, and I don't know all the

details, but uh, clearly clearly Miller

has, and a lot of it is, I think, and I

can't read the mind of the deep state,

but as a former deep stater, uh, I would

say that there's always been this kind

of disdain for political appointees and

they don't and members of Congress, like

they don't they don't have the reverence

on this issue. They're going to it

up. They're going to, you know, say

something that they shouldn't have about

a classified program. And um that's why

some classified programs are kept from

Congress. It's called waved programs. Um

and uh the only presidents that were

really really involved were the ones

like HW Bush, right? He was CI director.

He was fully briefed on this issue. A

lot of that lore is true about HW Bush.

Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in

this. He was the mob boss for many

years. He was kind of the head of this

activity. And so I think there's some um

testing of the waters right now. It's

kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like you

know, we'll give you a little bit of

this, a little bit of that, and they're

they're seeing how the administration is

going to potentially roll this out. And

and obviously if the White House wants

my opinion, I'm available. But um I do

trust the president's team hopefully

will be able to handle this. And because

I if Trump doesn't enforce his order and

see this through, I don't think any

other president is going to be able. I

mean I mean regardless of Democrat,

left, right, whatever, like if he

follows through on this, he's going to

be the goat. He's going to be a legend.

And you know, all the other things

people have problems with in his

presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this

will um wipe those out. and this is like

really important for his legacy to

initiate the process before the 28

election. Then there's like a hot

handoff to the next um administration.

And you know, if Trump's a political

animal, he could easily line up a

Republican team on the 28 ticket to

basically, you know, be his continuity

on this, too. I think that'd be very

smart. And

>> so this is going to take a long time to

release. Is that how you're

>> projecting this?

>> That was always the plan back in the

day. I just because it's like an

anestization and climatization process.

It's like, you know, okay, we're gonna

focus on this topic. Everybody's this is

going to get normalized. The temperature

is going to cool and then we're going to

bring in this shocking thing.

>> So, there's a there's a schedule like in

terms of like the psychological impact

on the populace.

>> There was in the past in terms of

certain um government think tanks wrote

classified assessments for uh previous

presidents on this. I don't know what

the current plan is. I'm just uh I'm

currently literally a private citizen

right now. But if they're going to do

what they did in the past, it is

>> and the slow roll out has its pluses and

minuses. Like I would say due to human

factors, risks of adversarial countries

getting ahead of us, other

whistleblowers, whatever. You probably

have to roll this out in at least like

12 months and whatnot. But we're in a

precarious time if the administration

doesn't start because uh China and

Russia could take advantage of this

moment now. Our weakness, you know,

China has their famous uh belt and road

initiative. Uh China has admitted

publicly that they have a UAP task

force. Obviously, they have more than

that behind the scenes. And they

actually announced that when the DoD UAP

task force was announced, you can find a

news article from June 2020 in the South

China Morning Post where they talk about

they're analyzing these encounters.

They're using AI, etc. So,

>> do you feel that China has or do you

know if China has these crashed vehicles

as well?

>> There's parallel programs.

>> There's parallel programs. Now, one of

the things that Diana Pulka said when

and and Gary Nolan refers to in the same

way as well, they they refer to them as

donations.

>> Yeah, that's what's really interesting

is I am aware of certain historical

retrieval rules where they were like

perfectly landed and it wasn't like a

crash and what is what's going on there?

I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I

never had access to that kind of

information. I'm sure that we understand

why that happened at some level, but

that is true that that's actually

happened.

>> So the theory is that they want us to

find these things so that we can examine

the technology and perhaps work from it,

>> like engineer it or like you were saying

before, gain inspiration to try new

>> Yeah. I mean, part of it's like throw in

the gorilla banana, see if it can peel

it. But also, the the more skeptical

intel officer in me is like, is this a

Trojan horse? Do you want us to uh

figure things out and then get then get

addicted to certain type of technology

and then that creates a control loop uh

where they start handling us whether we

need raw resources to maintain a certain

technology or as in this intelligence

whatever this is this nonhuman

intelligence

>> right so if if it is a if it is a

donation do you feel like this donation

is evenly distributed amongst world

powers.

>> You know, I do not know the the the

statistical distribution. That's very

interesting. I I never understood the

total number of retrievalss in um other

countries participated in.

>> Well, there's supposed to be quite a few

in the United States.

>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I

don't know the answer to that actually.

I'm sure there's a statistical analysis

that'll come out in this process. You

know,

>> do you think there's any shared

information between these governments?

Do you think they communicate?

>> There is a a gentleman's agreement. Uh

the the top layer of it I can talk

about, and I've talked about it

previously, so it's not um anything

super new. If you look at the accident

measures agreement of 1971, which which

is the short title of this god-awfully

long title treaty that was signed in

September 1971,

you'll see article three of the treaty

talks about UAP. And hey, if you see any

unidentified objects around your nuclear

or critical critical comms facilities,

please call us, bro. And that was

between the USSR in America. And then uh

in 2013, the classified annex of that

treaty got declassified. You can find it

online at George Washington University

National Security Archives, but it gives

the nuke flash like the red line like

code to say it was like Adam222, Adam

333, and that's all declassified. and he

would send that to the the Kremlin like

hey uh we see weird around

uh plac uh it's not us it's not a false

flag and vice versa and so there was a

redline comms for UAP activity between u

Russia and the US and of course Russia

and US during the Cold War had a mutual

notification treaty for space launch

vehicle and ICBM launches etc. Weirdly

enough, we've never had that with China.

Even to this day, we don't have a

mutual, this is crazy. We don't have a

mutual notification. If they're going to

do like a a sub submarine launched

ballistic missile test out of, you know,

off their coast, they're not obligated

by treaty to tell us. So, and sometimes

they don't with certain national

security activities. and and so uh

Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning

Center, other other places, uh NSA,

DefMAC and Laurel, Maryland have to be

on their agame to like make sure it was

like a test because the Chinese aren't

obligated to tell us. And I um a crazy

story in that regard. The Indians did

something like that to us. I was on duty

in the NRO operations center. And by the

way, I got this clear through security,

so you know, NRO, don't shank me. Um uh

basically there was an unexpected

Indian uh missile test that hit one of

their satellites in 2019. I think it was

like March of 2019.

>> One of our satellites.

>> Oh no, not our uh one of their uh

weather. Yeah. Their own defunct weather

satellite and

>> on purpose or an accident?

>> On purpose. And

>> they shot down one of their own

satellites

>> and they didn't tell us. I remember in

my office at like all these different

phones. I'm like calling the embassy all

this. I'm like what the you know,

and because we were worried at the NRO

about the debris because we fly space,

you know, spy satellites. That's the

mission of the National Reconnaissance

Office and I was the backup director of

intelligence as a reser at the

operations center where I was, you know,

also handling the PDB for the director

and I, you know, led the director's

briefing team and, you know, I'm like

going to the orbital analysts on the

watch floor with all the crazy screens

like calculate the the the debris field,

you know, let me know if we have to

maneuver something and blah blah blah.

I'm like running up to the director's

office in my uniform, you know, out of

breath. I'm like, "Holy shit." You know,

um, and it was kind of a big deal. And

that's publicly, you know, you can

Google that now. And, um, I remember

when that went down, it was pretty

crazy. So,

>> that sounds completely insane.

>> Yeah.

>> So, are there other countries besides

China, Russia, and US that supposedly

have access to these vehicles?

>> Yeah.

>> Which other countries can you say? that

I don't want to get into cuz that gets

into some sensitive stuff,

>> right? Um, supposedly this is like one

of the best legends that there's a a

craft that's so large they couldn't move

it so they had to make a building around

it and it's supposedly in Korea.

>> A legend?

>> I don't know.

>> Oh, yeah. You do know. How dare you?

But if you heard you've heard that

rumor, I'm sure online.

>> I've heard that rumor online. Yeah.

>> Yeah. You don't know anything about

that?

>> Yeah. We'll let the federal government.

Do you have any personal experience with

any of this stuff?

>> You know, it's funny you asked that. I,

as far as I can remember, I have no

experience with the phenomenon. Like a

lot of a lot of people in this, I guess,

ufology or whatever you want to call it,

they have that personal experience like,

oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb

or whatever. And

>> I have zero. I've seen a couple

interesting things in the sky that, you

know, could have been satellite passes.

I've been an amateur astronomer besides

having a physics degree. I've been an

amateur astronomer since like I was like

in middle school like 12 13 years old

and and I still have never seen anything

in my personal life uh in a stupendous

nature. I've never had any kind of

spooky woo stuff happen

>> never been visited.

>> No. and and and that's why like I was

open to this you know I'm a child of the

80 well I grew up at I was born in the

80s you know most of my childhood was in

the 90s and you know I watched XFiles

and Star Trek Next Gen and of course I'm

like you know I'm a precocious teen

reading like brief history time and you

know Isaac Azimov and I'm learning about

the Draco equation I'm like there's

probably life but who knows and I'm I'm

open to it and then you know when I got

in into the intelligence community

that's like the first thing I looked up

like on the I'm like on the computer.

I'm like I go on to a certain database.

I'm like type it in Area 51, you know,

UFOs. Like everybody's done that who's

who's gone through intel school whether

they admit it or not. And of course, I

didn't see anything or anything.

>> Um the only thing I bumped into early in

my career in like 2009, I remember

reading the OSAP uh the Defense

Intelligence reference documents, the

DIDs, and at the time I had no idea what

they were doing. And turns out it was

obviously UAP related, but I was reading

why why is the DIA looking into magneto

hydrodnamic propulsion and uh cloaking

and all all this other stuff. And of

course I find out later what it was, but

I had absolutely no uh personal

experience and even professionally

uh for most of my career. Now I found

out behind the scenes later like, "Oh,

you remember that top secret program

you're working on, Dave? you were

actually uh looking for UAP and you

didn't know it. I'm like what? And and

of course, you know, I find out and I

learn about, you know, how they hid all

this infrastructure and they used a lot

of conventional national security

intelligence collection architecture to

basically facilitate this crash

retrieval program, which makes sense

because they're not going to reinvent

the wheel and, you know, totally have a

separate infrastructure to use to like

figure out if stuff crashed, activity,

etc., right? And um you know early I

would say

about 10 years into my career I remember

some imagery analysts saying hey Dave

you know like uh they told us to

airbrush some stuff out of photos and

stuff and it was round and I'm like okay

dude well maybe that's something you're

not clear to or whatever. And I do

remember that and I had some suspicious

recruitment earlier in my career too. I

was on some really sensitive stuff that

I ended up finding out it was um

directly adjacent to the program and I

went through this whole like smoking man

recruitment thing for a year and you

know was told I was going to get these

kind of bizarre accesses and I'm like

what are you talking about and

ultimately I was never recruited and I

kind of just like put filed that in the

back of my brain for years but like I've

said uh you know before it wasn't until

like spring of 2017 I was at the CIA

briefing um the deputy director staff on

a bunch of DoD classified programs and

the chief of um a very sensitive office

at the agency pulled me aside and was

like, "Dave, what what do you know about

UFOs? Like uh I hear there's like a

program at the Pentagon and all that."

And and and I'm like, "I don't know."

Like I'm briefed almost every DoD

program at the time by the way and

hundreds of of of programs in the

intelligence community because I was in

a position of very high trust and I you

know I'm very patriotic and I'm very

humbled that I was in a position like

that in my 30s and and I didn't think

anything of it until until this this

subject got more popularized people went

public you know Tom Dong TTSA and all

that and and and then I was

professionally interested but not really

working on it in 2018 and then early in

19 is when I got brought on as the NRO

rep to the the then Navy task force

which became the DoD's, you know, UAP

task force. That's kind of my origin

story. And and so I was always I'm

always been curious, but I never saw

evidence and I never had any personal

experience with the phenomenon that kind

of kind of colors my uh judgment on

this, I guess. So,

>> so I'm sure you're aware of how put off

when he was uh tasked by the Bush

administration along with a bunch of

other thinkers to try to come up with

pros and cons for disclosure.

>> Yeah, I knew some other people in that

meeting and I verified that meeting took

place and even even Arrow admitted in

their volume one report which was

horrible. Well, that's a long story.

Painful. Uh, that it it took place, but

it was just a hypothetical scenario at a

a fedally funded research and

development center in Northern Virginia.

>> What year was this?

>> 2004. It was like November of 2004. And

it's like, but why was it hypothetical

if it's not real? Nobody explains that.

And obviously the story is, you know,

Steve Hadley, who was the national

security adviser, uh, sponsored it. You

know, I I believe Hadley denies it, but

you know, who knows if Steve would uh

you know, tell the truth on that just

because of the sensitivity. So,

>> and so for people that don't know what

happened, supposedly they brought in a

bunch of different thought leaders and

they gave them uh a pro and a con side,

like what would be negatively affected

by disclosure, what would be positively

affected by disclosure, and attached a

numerical value to each group.

>> Correct. They had like a computer system

there that like tabulated everything

from what I know talking to other

attendees

>> and virtually every one of them had more

negative than positive and so the

decision was made to not disclose.

>> Well, yeah. And in the main decision, if

I remember correctly was the federal

contracts fraud. Well, that could be

debated in, you know, the Supreme Court.

But uh they realized a lot of and so

this is another issue of disclosure

besides the onlogical thought shock and

people can't handling it and like

>> misappropriation of funds.

>> Yeah. And misappropriation of funds and

all that. It's oh so these set of

contractors got sole source contracts

and exclusive access to this for

internal research and development where

they figure out something then sell it

back to the government etc. for all

these decades. What about my mid-level

small business and my contractor and

blah blah blah. And so you're going to

they were afraid that you would see

legal challenges going to the Supreme

Court in violation of what they call the

DEFARS, right? The defense federal

acquisition regulations,

>> right?

>> And the the government would be liable

for who knows billions of

dollars worth of monies that they spent

on this to these contractor partners

that got in back in the day and like,

well, we're not exposing any more

people. We're locking it down. and what

they call a JNA, justification and

approval for a soul source contract.

This is a reason national security like

we can't expose any more people to this.

And of course that also causes a brain

drain and group think and and actually

hurts the defense uh industrial base.

But that was the main reason. It wasn't

oh uh you know upcoming millennials that

are turning 18 can't handle it. It was

like yeah we're we're kind of culpable

and kind of a up contractual

relationship. And and that's going to be

something that the the Trump

administration is going to have to deal

with. It's like, well, how do I reorient

the defense and industrial base? I mean,

this could trigger a golden era of

innovation in America. More people get

to play. You overtly can take the basic

information that's not sensitive um and

put it into academia, right? So, you

have undergraduate, graduate, post-doal

programs, and you actually create this

like more educated workforce to actually

benefit national security. But, and and

China doesn't have this issue. They're

they're pulling people from pick a

university in China, Nanjing, whatever

university, and they're sucking them

into these programs and but in America,

we don't have that kind of permissive

totalitarian environment. So,

>> well, in China, they probably don't have

the issue with misappropriation of funds

and lying to Congress.

>> No, CCP, baby. You know, do whatever you

want.

>> They do whatever they want. So, they

don't have to worry about liability. So,

this is one of the things that came up

in that film, Age of Disclosure, is that

you're going to have to make some sort

of a amnesty program.

>> Yeah. And I'm I am for that as long it's

like use immunity for specific uh

testimony or

>> as long as it doesn't cover like this

other you're talking about.

>> Like my and of course I know who's

watching people clearly that are from

this ecosystem. Um, you know, I would,

you know, expect that like everybody's

been basically good Americans. There's a

small cast of characters that have done

unspeakable things. I mean, how they

wanted to kill me. This is like

it's disturbing and and you wonder why I

had to become a whistleblower. I didn't

want to do this but like I was

pushed over the edge uh to do that, you

know? I digress. But like besides like

bluecollar really up criminal

shits, which you know, once again, there

is a judicial justice process in

America, you know, we're not going to do

street justice here. We will, you know,

take care of that professionally. Um,

like I took care of the other criminal

stuff I found out professionally. I'm

like, look, I'm, you know, and and and

when I was doing that, I mean, I was

meeting people body armor armed with

colleagues of mine that were, you know,

rolling heavy, too. And like it was a

very serious part of my investigation.

But yeah, I I believe in amnesty, but I

I think we need to do it like a truth

and reconciliation commission, which was

in post-apartid South Africa in the 90s

where you had um you know, some white

farmer comes in, it's like, yeah, I

murdered a bunch of black people or

whatever, you know, and it's like, okay,

thank you for telling us that. You're

good. You know, don't do it again and

move on. I'm I mean, I'm distilling it

down, but that's essentially what the

TRC in South Africa was. And I think

something like that would be very

additive and good because I mean I have

friends that run the program. They're

they're great guys. They're bros you

know and gals and um they you know were

signed paperwork you know it was like if

you you know divulge this it's under

penalty of treason you go to Levvenworth

or you know capital punishment.

>> And yeah

>> let's break down what you know.

>> Yeah

>> and what you can say.

>> Yeah. What are these things and what are

they capable of?

>> So,

uh, there's like physical and

non-physical, call it UAP and

intelligence we're likely dealing with.

So, for example, the orbs, could that be

sentient plasmoid? Possibly

>> sentient plasmoid. So, plasma that has

consciousness.

>> Yeah. in some way and that could be like

you're seeing the other side of some

sort of wormhole and it's some other

intelligence shooting this like I'll

call it like plasmoidic probe into you

know our existence I mean there's this

is of course a theoretical framework and

once again I don't have a PhD in

>> but it's theoretical that there is a

life form that is a plasmabased life

form

>> and there's already papers on the open

internet about this a couple years ago

what's the title of the the paper they

wrote about this possibility so this is

a um academic assessment of a

possibility of the orbs. Now, could the

orbs actually be physical craft, but

they have a sheath of plasma around it?

Interestingly enough, and OAP did a

defense intelligence reference document

on magneto hydrodnamic propulsion, um

which if you remember the the movie The

Hunt for Red October,

>> that's the Caterpillar Drive on the

Russian submarine, you know, back in the

day. Uh and of course uh with MHD you

can also do it you have to use a

conductive fluid um either salt seawater

that has salt in it or uh you could do

it in the air but you have to create a

plasma and you steer the plasma with

it's called the lorren force it's it's

basically have a perpendicular magnetic

field large amount electricity and you

can basically through the lorren force

which is like ionic propulsion sort of

um uh control it in the in the

atmosphere as well and you can you know

read papers on that and I e and and

other stuff like that and so one of the

byproducts of an air breathing MHD

system is plasma around it. So depending

on the size of the orb um it is

conceivable that there's a physical

craft behind it as well just by as an

artifact of the propulsion system. Uh

once again that's a a theory. I'm sure

the program knows and that will be

communicated at a later date but like

you know that's Yeah.

>> So this theory about sentient plasma

>> Yeah.

>> is it the idea that we have a very

narrow-minded view of what life can be

>> and that life as it evolved in other

places in other parts of the universe

>> went noncroporeal at some point like the

the meat suit sucks. We're going to

>> right

>> be an energetic

>> like this is an ultimate expression of

both technology and at least enhanced

evolution that eventually consciousness

is isolated or consciousness may be

ubiquitous and exists in everything

anyway and that yeah

>> yeah certainly and I'm not the the

expert in I would say the the

consciousness theory I like the Penrose

Hamarov orc O theory which is the

microtubules the room temperature So

microtubules are in neurons of the brain

and you have this like room temperature

quantum system that can collapse the

wave function without an observer and

that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart

Hamarov and I've talked to Hamarov crazy

smart guy um he's an anesthesiologist by

training and Penrose obviously is a very

famous mathematician and uh physics

legend and uh that's how they view

consciousness. I'm not saying that's the

exact model. I happen to prefer it

because it's very trippy and very

interesting and does explain spooky

action and like um telepathy because oh

well if it's just a quantum system then

I'm like quantumly entangled. Oh that

makes sense now like why remote viewing

and other stuff works right.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So you have some sort of

plasabased intelligence.

>> Yeah.

>> And then what else?

So obviously there has been the physical

craft of all different flavors like I've

talked about it. You know the tic tacs

are real. There's eggs. There's

different types of discs. There's boot

heels sunfish looking things. Um uh

boomerangs crescent moon looking uh

craft as well. And obviously

all those have different

um origins in terms of pilots and

whatnot. There's a there's a little bit

of overlap. It's almost like uh certain

people like the Porsche 911 or Ford

Mustang. They they kind of build the

same shape and that's probably

indicative of the technology or the

propulsion system.

>> I'm not an expert in exactly why that

is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know,

sever several different types and it's a

it's once again it's a taxonomy where

it's almost like like not all white

people look the same, right? same idea

where you might have like a species per

se but then there's sort of like subsets

right

>> now

is there a theory or is there

information based on where these things

are from and that there different ones

are from different places

>> there is but I never got access to that

and even if the information was once

again how would you like um confirm that

as a skeptical former uh human intg ence

officer, you have some sort of NHI

communicating to you, oh, I'm from star

system X, Y, and Z. Right?

>> Cool. Is that denial and deception, you

know, activities? Are you misdirecting?

You're from somewhere else. So,

>> uh, even if they said they told us, how

would you verify that? I mean, there's

certainly obviously ways

>> and but some of it seems once again

extraterrestrial is part of the pie

here, right? There's a, you know,

there's ultraterrestrial and other

things. And I it does seem like a lot of

it's been here for a while and also

seems so similar to us that I have

questions. And once again, this isn't

rhetorical. I don't know the answer.

It's like, well, is this bio-engineered?

Is this uh a break from our tree? Is

this um some sort of other technology?

Uh like chameleon type technology, if

you will. I don't I don't know the

answer to that. So I I think that's

>> what are the prevailing theories amongst

the people that are working on this

though.

>> Yeah. So

>> like do they have answers or do they

just have theories?

>> I am not certain of that because I do

not have that level of knowledge and as

the government rolls that out I'm happy

to you know parse that with the American

people in public and kind of explain my

opinion on things as gaps and

information for myself is filled in

because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't

have full access and I only know what I

know. And that's why I've I've treated

this with such reverence because even me

going public, I'm like, I don't

know what this is going to trigger

besides my own personal safety, which

clearly I was under duress and and I had

to even resign my Air Force Commission.

Didn't even fully retire and I'm trying

to get that fixed. I, you know, filed

something with the Air Force board a

year ago so I can actually retire and

have my benefits because I, you know, I

miss my promotional lieutenant colonel

and other stuff. But um I digress. But

certainly

there is such similarity that there was

a concern and uh from a genomic

perspective and there was work on that

to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I

don't know the answer to that and what

they found out

>> work to compare genomes from biological

samples.

>> Uh yeah, dead cadaavvers. Yeah.

>> So that's real.

>> Oh, 100%. Yeah.

>> So there are

>> Oh yeah, I know that for sure. you. How

do you know that for sure?

>> I got to see the audio visual on that

side.

>> You got to see what?

>> Yeah. So, I got to be a little vague

only because I want to protect the

sources because it may indicate a

specific activity or operation and these

people were very patriotic and um they

were just dead cadaavvers in you know on

the ground because it was a retrieval

activity. Yeah.

>> You saw them physically or you saw video

of them?

>> Video.

>> Video.

>> Yeah. So you saw a dead cadaavver that

was at a crash.

>> Yes.

>> So they filmed the crash and they filmed

these cadaavvers.

>> Yeah.

>> How old is this footage?

>> Uh I don't want to say. Okay.

>> It's contemporary, but I

>> It's contemporary.

>> Yeah. But I don't want to reveal a

particular operation because it narrows

it down.

>> But it's clear. It's not like you're

looking 1950s black and white. It's

clear. And do know, you know, when I get

that kind of information, you know, I'm

like, okay, tell me what it is, what

what happened, and then I put it out for

collection, so to speak, and then I

confirm it independently because I was

very uh allergic to any kind of

deception, right? Like in the in the

advent of AI, Sora AI, you can you can

create a very realistic and so I was

very anal retentive when I was given

documents, audiovisisual, etc. And I sat

on that stuff for like years until I

felt comfortable with that not being

some sort of limited hangout or

deception activity. So yeah.

>> What did it look like?

>> Human looking.

>> How human?

>> Very

>> like like looked like a human or looked

similar to a human.

>> Very

very beautiful. And

>> beautiful.

>> It and I I said

>> what color was the skin?

>> Uh bluish white and super close. No, no,

no, no, no. It like

>> like someone who drowned

>> like a pale sort of albino and

>> and it's interesting and I said this in

another interview that's not out yet,

but and and God willing this is my last

interview for a while hopefully in

pre-disclosure environment, you know,

and uh General McCaslin when he was

talking to Dong and this is public

record. Tom's talked about it on I think

your show and other interviews where he

always told Tom think of the Greek gods

and and Oh, true. you look it up and and

now I kind of understand what he meant.

But General McCaslin, who disappeared

within a week of Trump giving the the

declassification order on UAP in

February 2026, there's a lot of reasons

why uh Mccasin's disappearance uh

>> disappeared. Um he walked out of his

residence in Albuquerque and vanished.

>> Oh, that's right. That guy. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And nobody knows. And I, you know,

I have a relationship obviously with

Justice and

nobody knows what happened to

the guy.

>> And he like he left home so he

couldn't be tracked. I think his phone

was left but you know one of his

firearms was missing. It's like very

weird. So

>> Right. He left without his phone.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That was one of the weird parts

about it.

>> Yeah. And and once again he was going on

a trip with like 18 of his friends. He

went to REI the day before to get like a

medical kit and other supplies and I

mean obviously his wife's

discussion about him the body cam

footage is public and you know he had

some mental health issues nothing major

and and um some aging type issues but

she didn't think you know he was going

to like kill himself or whatever. So, I

mean, you never know. And I've had

friends unfortunately uh pass away

through suicide in the military, but

it's very bizarre and it's when within a

week of Trump that coming out and um

>> just say I know a lot about General

McCass.

>> Well, there's quite a few scientists

that were connected to UF UAP disclosure

or UAP potential back engineering

projects or mysterious projects

>> possibly. I think

>> do you think there was more like

>> to be fair was a little overblown and I

don't think there was a ton of

correlation like one was like a female

that worked at Air Force Research Lab

when Macccasin was a commander. I think

that was one of Well, I mean there's a

lot of people that work at Air Force

Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's

necessarily related to the topic. I the

only one

>> didn't she have did didn't that one

particular lady if it's the same person

didn't she have some sort of research

that was on material science?

>> That sounds correct. I'm not totally

conversant on all the people that

disappeared. The only one besides Maslin

that was very concerning to me was my

Air Force friend that um died

mysteriously about two years ago. And

it's an open investigation, so I won't

get into all the gory detail of my

assessments. Um it I mean it's binary.

It's either a very tragic thing, either

self harm or otherwise, or it was

something else. and my friend uh his

name's Matthew Sullivan calls sign quake

in the air force him and I were on

active duty together uh he was on the

program and he was uh one of my sources

and I and I once again I don't name

people but like he unfortunately has

passed so I want to make that clear

>> this video do you think this will be a

part of disclosure that we'll get to see

this video of these dead bodies

>> probably

so there's a there's a lot audiovisisual

stuff. The problem with the the with the

the current climate, like you're going

to have to wheel out the physical

evidence, too, cuz people are the trust

in government is so low right now. Like

you you could show a video, but people

are going to be like, "Oh, well that's

just the US government with us,

and you're going to have to

>> curate a wheel out literally like, you

know, put it in the Uvar Hazy Center,

the Smithsonian, and then give the

biological samples to Eric Weinstein,

who I know he wants it." And

>> why would you give it to him? Well, he

says he has people that test it. Um,

>> I have people that test it, too.

>> Yeah, but give it to me.

>> I'm just I'm just saying that

>> it's all ridiculous and give it to who?

There should be a way that human beings

uh other than the government can look at

this stuff.

>> Well, there needs to be an independent

process. Yeah.

>> Right now, is this stuff

>> So, this is contemporary this this dead

body thing.

>> And so, this is a fairly recent crash.

>> Mhm. And did these things have all the

characteristics of a human being? Did

they have ears? And

>> as far as I could recall, and it wasn't

like all they have close up. Oh, yeah.

>> They had hair. What color was the hair?

>> It was like grayish and all that. It was

The problem is I don't give the nature

of the the video. It wasn't super close

up. It was like,

>> of course not

>> during the operation. So, it's not like

>> during the operation of retrieval.

>> Yeah. Okay. And then they they had these

things. So what is your understanding of

what happens to these bodies?

>> Oh, they're kept for analysis. And

>> how do they keep them? They freeze them.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I don't know the exact process.

I'm not a biologist, but they do put it

in some sort of preservation status. So

>> Huh.

>> Yeah.

>> So was that the most compelling thing

you saw?

Yes, because you know it couples with

you know both the the craft and the

alleged you know occupants and you there

was some other stuff in that in that

area that I got to be careful talking

about because it's so specific that

it'll easily ID the you know the patriot

that helped me on that.

>> Um and once again I want the public to

see all this stuff and I you don't take

my word for it. Plead with the president

to make sure this comes out. He's really

courageous to do so and I just I hope

this all comes out.

>> When you say contemporary, you mean last

20 years, more recent?

>> I don't even want to characterize it,

but it's it's contemporary.

>> And when you say Greek gods, like do

these these creatures actually look like

something special, like not just like a

regular person. You said beautiful.

>> Yeah. Just very oddly it and it's been a

while and but I'm just trying to

visualize in my mind. It was just very

very beautiful. It was just

>> Were they wearing an outfit?

>> Uh, it looked like it like some kind of

form fitting thing, but I didn't get a

good look at it.

>> Spandex?

>> I don't know. I didn't get a good look

at it, honestly.

>> You didn't?

>> No. I mean, it was like a a pan. So,

>> okay. So, they didn't even focus on the

bodies. They just like, "Oh, there's a

body of there." You know, people had a

job to do,

>> right? Did you worry that that that's a

scop that you're being shown something

that's horseshit? Well, like I said, I

was very careful with that and confirmed

it through other sources and methods to

make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout

from some government element trying to

sway me one way or the other. And

>> so, you independently verified that

there was an event.

>> Yeah, I did.

>> Okay. And then there's footage of this

event. And in this footage of this

event, how many bodies were there?

>> I think three or four is what I saw. I

don't know what the total was.

>> Did they have gender?

>> Um, looked amorphous to me, but once

again, it was a pan. Really? It wasn't.

Yeah. Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Long hair, short hair,

>> long.

>> All of them.

>> Yeah.

>> Hm.

>> That I could recall. Yeah.

>> The Greek gods thing is very weird.

>> It's weird. And

>> it's a weird comparison. Like you stop

and think about that. Yeah. Well, why

were the Greek gods

>> so beautiful?

>> It's funny you say that cuz like I think

about like breakaway human. I mean, once

again, I'm just I'm just

>> or maybe even an original civilization

that existed before.

>> Yeah. There's more people are leaning in

that direction when they start looking

at some of the stuff that's underneath

the pyramids and some of the weird

structures that they're finding all over

the earth. Like how how are these

things? We had a whole podcast yesterday

about it. It's like how are these things

made? Who made these things? Like what?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I I follow

Graham Hancock and Randle Carlson just,

you know, casually and

>> and I do have um not fears, but uh you

know, I have questions about some sort

of breakaway human civilization and that

explains some of this or it's

bio-engineered because like for them to

develop naturally say off planet say

it's extraterrestrial that it looks

almost dead ringer like us like that

doesn't make any sense to me.

>> Well, does it make sense? If we're

engineered, then it makes sense. So,

>> that is that is certainly a possibility.

You know, I have questions about that,

too.

>> This is a this is what Bob Lazar

believes. I had a long conversation with

him about that. He thinks that human

beings are a product of genetic some

sort of manipulation.

>> And I think hypothetically, if that

ended up being verified in some way,

shape, or form, you know, how how does

that change humanity? What does it mean

to be human? And I I think there's a lot

of deep human sovereignty and other

questions uh on that if that ends up

being the case.

>> Well, it gets weird because we're

willing to believe that an omnipotent

god created us out of nothing. That's

cool. But the idea that we were visited

by what's essentially almost godlike in

their powers and abilities, some

creature from somewhere else or some

being, some super hyper intelligent

being from somewhere else

>> and they manipulated us. That bothers

us. I know. And I weird. My biggest

regret was not getting access to like

the biological assessment reports and

stuff like that. I was getting enough

spears thrown my way and I was, you

know, in literal danger. So, I

unfortunately wasn't able to kind of,

you know, um, get access to that stuff.