Welcome to the standup. Today we have

two very special topics. And as always,

we have Tee DV, we have Casey Miratory,

and we have Trash Dev. All of them

legendary developers from the legendary

Twitter community here to talk about the

hottest and greatest parts that are

happening right now in tech today.

Uh anyways, sorry. The actual first

topic is going to have to be TJ Trash

and Casey guesses. What does LinkedIn

have to say? Now, I'm going to say a

phrase.

>> I had to fire Teach. Now, before I show

it to you, what is the LinkedIn

translation of I had to fire Teach?

>> What does this mean? LinkedIn

translation. Yes. Automatic LinkedIn

translator that takes my phrase

>> identifier

>> and transforms it into LinkedIn.

>> I've got

>> into like a five paragraph post.

>> Yeah, it's going to be really long. Like

um this is one of the hardest decisions

that we've had to make. Uh but the you

know the company is strong and this only

puts us in a stronger position. Uh Tee

was a very valuable employee and did a

lot of great things and we're really

looking forward to what he does next.

>> That's great. Trash. I was I was

thinking more of like something happens

in real life. So it's like I went to the

bagel store, but the bagel person ended

up burning my bagel, which somehow

reminded me of Tee burning down the code

at work, which made me realize and

reflect upon his recent performance. And

now I had to hash lay him off something

something.

>> That's crazy.

>> I I was going I was going more with TJ's

been my best friend since we founded

this company. We've been through hard

times. We've been through good times.

We've worked together. He came to my

wedding. I went to his. He's the

godfather of my child. Unfortunately for

him, it's time to grind even harder. #

grind #h hard.

And and so to do that in the age of AI,

I have an agent that says you are teach

and you are good enough to do exactly

what he did for me. So I laid off my

technical co-founder and we're shipping

10,000 lines of code today. buy my

course below to also ship like this.

Wow. All right. To tell you the truth,

it was in fact Casey who did the good

job. Today, I'm sharing one of the

hardest decisions I've ever had to make

as a leader.

>> I've had to part ways with my co-founder

Tee. Growth isn't always a straight

line. And sometimes the hardest part of

the journey is realizing when paths need

to diverge to protect long-term vision

of the company. It's about radical

canoandor making tough calls and staying

true to the mission. I'm incredibly

grateful for the lessons during this

chapter onward and upward. # leadership

#founderlife #growthmindset TJ that's a

TJ point and I

>> see I don't read LinkedIn so I didn't

know they were hashtag obsessed that I

totally miss that I totally miss that

>> love hashtags they love

>> Here we see the elusive programmer a

simple creature that spends most of its

time working alone often in darkness but

what's this someone being wrong on the

internet our coder springs into action

reaching top speeds of 120 words per

minute before flash a light mode website

the natural enemy of these code lovers

stuns our friend. The chase is called

off. We'll have to get them next time.

When not on their computers, they can

spend hours drawing crude symbols on

something they call whiteboards.

Researchers have discovered thousands of

dialects, often with more than a dozen

used in a single office. However, no

linguist has yet deciphered what their

purpose is.

Vein creatures, their bodies have

evolved over a millennia to be able to

sit in unusual postures while looking at

themselves online. This will often last

for many hours using the excuse they're

waiting for code review, depressed to

why they're so inactive.

And finally, after a long day of

accomplishing very little, our keyboard

warriors ready for bed. Quick read and

it's lights out.

Good night, little coder.

So, how do I sleep so well at night?

Well, I have sentry to help me crush

those bugs. And I'm not I'm not talking

about like little teen tiny South Dakota

bugs that die in the winter. I'm talking

about big mean jungle bugs and I'm not

scared of any of them by the way just

but I can squash those bugs with seer by

century. All right. Well, this was

inspired due to this post which was

unironically put on here which is

Michael and I are separating

romantically. We're not breaking up as

co-founders and we're not stepping away.

Dot dot dot. I never got THE ACTUAL FULL

THING.

>> NO, THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

>> NO, THAT'S NOT REAL.

>> That is real.

>> Quick question. Did that guy happen to

make an app about tracking when your

wife leaves the dishes in the sink?

Yes.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> I love the idea of of like instead of

instead of saying I broke up or we're

getting divorced, it's like uh we're

announcing a change in our chief bedroom

officer,

>> the CBO. We we ARE WE ARE CURRENTLY

GOING INTO A PHASE where we're going to

search for our new uh chief bedroom

officer. We have a lot of promising

candidates. We want to make sure we find

the right match.

>> I plan on interview sound a lot more

professional

>> in the next six months.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> dude. That's the new Tinder pickup line.

Looking for a CBO.

>> Yeah, looking for a CBO.

>> All right. Someone else like I like

that. I like that.

>> I'm I'm I'm serving as interim CBO right

now.

But it's not it's not long-term,

>> man. That interview process is crazy.

>> I am avoiding saying anything. I

>> smart. Next topic. Quick. Quick.

>> All right. So, we're going to actually

get to the real first topic of the

standup. I saw somebody on the internet

post this right here. It's the

complexity visualizer. Now, this was

posted by STEM explorer. I presumably a

Twitter account about exploring STEM

>> and they

>> like the like the thing in the flowers.

>> Yes. Uh kind of

>> TJ reached deep for that pun cuz it was

it was okay.

>> Uh and so they gave us a complexity

visualizer big O notation race in which

they have O of one O of N O N log N^ squ

and then of course 2 to the N kind of

like your classic situation. Now, this

reminded me immediately of when Casey

had an absolute meltdown on the internet

over the ball diagram.

>> We had several videos. We had

>> This is actually worse.

>> This is actually worse.

>> I didn't know it could get worse than

the balls.

>> Well, it's kind of There's two different

things. So, the meltdown over the ball

video. I mean, obviously, like I always

criticize ball videos.

>> Classic known ball criticizer.

>> Yeah. uh when developers feel the need

to show their balls off to the entire

world like that and I'm just I'm just

sitting there going like

>> that's a job for the CBO. Am I right,

boys?

>> Yeah, exactly.

Um, chief ball officer.

>> Uh, well, internet chief ball officer

Ben Dickin, who at this point is now

infamous for these ball diagrams and

loves it, by the way. like he as far as

I can tell he is he is leaning into the

balls

>> uh and and uh cuz you know he posts them

to get to get engagement like that's he

you know he's trying to do uh he's he's

trying to

>> get a

>> to get people to interact with his uh

social media and so like you know people

people saying these are awful is just as

good as people saying they're bad I

assume I don't really know but anyway

the problem with those ball diagrams

Are you fundamentally opposed to men

leaning into ball diagrams?

>> No, what I'm saying is that he was

leaning into it. I'm not making a value

judgment. If a man wants to lean into

their balls uh or or anyone's balls uh

at on social media, that's entirely up

to them in my opinion. I don't think

that we should be telling them what to

do or not to do. That's my opinion.

That's just my opinion. Um and I'm

sticking to it. So anyway, my problem

with the balls was that they're a bad

way to visualize data. A but the reason

but that happens a lot. So that there's

a lot of people who post their balls on

the internet and it's just like okay

this maybe the thing that they were

posting was actually fine. They happen

to want to show you their balls instead

of just putting the data in a better

format. And I'm just like, could you not

do that? Because it's a really it's I

understand it's eye-catching and that's

why you're doing it, but it's a very bad

way to visualize data. And like there's

even like you can literally go find

studies people have done where they've

looked at how people like react to

different ways of pres presenting data.

And motion is like one of the worst

things to use to try and get people to

conceptualize the differences between

things. Like humans are horrible at

comparing like the rate of movement of

things as compared to just the sizes of

them, right? So

>> that makes sense.

>> Yeah. So it's just a bad idea for a

chart. It's only good when you're trying

to bait social media engagement, which

to be fair, like I said, I think Ben

Dicken knows. So he's kind of off the

hook in a sense for that part of it. So

really, because that's what he was

trying to do, and that's fine. The

reason I was so grumpy about those is

because the data was wrong. like the

thing that they were Ben Dickens data is

usually also wrong, right? So he makes a

repository, he invites people to

contribute to the repository, the

contributions are terrible, generally

speaking, they're just all over the map

and then he graphs them as if they

compare like language performance, but

they don't at all, right? Um, and so

it's just not like it's it's bad. It's

misleading. And that's why I get upset

about that. the balls are kind of, you

know, uh, insult to injury, if you will,

like, oh, now I got to look at balls

while I see this bad data. It's like,

you know, just makes things worse. So, I

wanted to clear that up first. This is

something completely different. This is

like they posted a graph that literally

doesn't show the thing at all.

>> It is very, very true. I've been

struggling trying to figure out the

meaning behind it for a long time.

>> Prime was so tilted when he was like

we're saw the first one and I was just

like I stopped looking. Like constant

time is just a wave like this. I'm like

what? It should just be like a line,

right? Like what? I don't understand at

all.

>> I have no idea what it's even graphing.

Like I have literally no idea.

>> None. I don't know how they I don't know

how they came up with

>> complexity visualized. Casey says right

on the ground.

>> It says right there, Casey. It's pretty

obvious. read.

>> Well, I mean, you know, if I can't see

because of course, you know, this is

Riverside and so being able to see the

thing,

>> I can't read I can't read any of that.

>> Yep.

>> Uh but like what's the top one? O1 is

supposed to be right.

>> And what's Okay, so so 01's

>> it goes really

>> what's the next one?

>> Uh log N

>> log N. And the next one is N log N maybe

or

>> No, it's just N.

>> This is linear.

>> Oh, okay. Okay, we skipped n login. All

right,

>> then n login. No, then n login cuz it's

slower, right? Theoretically, it's

slower.

>> Then n squ and then 2 to the n. So each

one is like progressively worse by an

order of complexity.

>> Understood. Okay.

>> With a couple complexities skipped.

>> So the more squiggles, the worse.

>> Yeah. The more so how long it takes to

move from one side to the other. But the

squiggles are useless.

>> Yes, correct. The squiggles.

>> What I was trying to do is count them.

I'm like, do the do the squiggles even

go in a pattern that has to do with like

what the N was? And it doesn't even look

like that. Like I could

>> very difficult because they erase the

squiggly. So if you were supposed to

deduce the squiggle density, it's being

erased actively.

>> Actively because like the top one, so if

that's 01, then the constant would have

to be like three, right? Because there's

three squiggles. So and we know that N

is one. So you know the constant would

have to be three. If the next one is log

n, right? We assume the constant is

still three pro. I mean, I guess there's

no reason to think that the constant

would still be three, I suppose. But I'm

just I'm just trying to figure out is

there any way to make this line up? I

suppose you could say, well, the

constant changes at each time, and

that's where the squiggles I I don't

know. I I literally don't know. I can't

figure it There's no way any thought

went into.

>> So the thing that really just grinds my

gears is that constant time

theoretically it does not matter upon

the input,

>> right? It's just about whatever the

coefficient is next to the constant

time. That really dictates

>> constant part and constant time.

>> That's the constant part and constant.

And so the fact that it takes about half

the speed as log n really bothers me

because constant is a fixed kind of like

operating time whereas login depends on

how much input there is.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And so you can't actually make any sort

of relational guess between constant and

log. But in this one they're saying it

it's about 60%.

>> That kills me on the inside.

>> Right.

>> On average constant time is about or

login time is about 60% as fast as

constant time on average.

>> 50% of the time every time.

>> Yeah. Like on average.

>> It really hurts me so so much. And then

the the then the other part that really

gets me is that at the very end when

they're kind of finishing everything up,

uh, two to the end, exponential time and

quadratic time, exponential times like

20 or 15% through and quadratic time is

like 95% way through.

>> Yep.

>> And so it's just like that is not true

even in the slightest, right? It's like

at at n of 10,

>> exponential time is 10 times larger. At

n of 11, exponential times 100 times

larger than n squ. At 12, it's a

thousand times larger. Like none of this

makes any sense. Just driving me just

completely insane.

>> This has to be AI generated. There's no

way.

>> I assume it is.

>> Well, they wrote code to generate the

>> Oh, did they?

>> This is not AI generated in the sense

that someone came up with this idea and

told AI to generate it. I am so positive

that if you told AI like, "Hey, generate

the differences between these times,"

>> it would have done a standard graph.

>> It would have been more accurate. It

would have been this

>> right here. Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> Which this I I'm looking at that I'm

looking at it

>> and I'm like, "But which one takes

longer?"

>> I can't even tell because where's the

ball moving across the screen?

>> I can't even tell.

>> Oh my gosh. Sorry. I was I was just so

>> but that's kind of the point te right

like so one of the important things

about complexity is that it doesn't tell

you how long something takes you can

have an 01 algorithm that takes a lot

longer than an algorithm for some n

>> this is true classic array versus uh set

lookup when you're doing stuff

>> this is just how it is and so the that's

the point of understanding like if you

try to convey to somebody that O is

faster than O N log N or something like

that, you're conveying incorrect

information because it's not faster or

slower. It scales worse, right? There's

a difference between those things. And

so you need like even showing anything

that implies that there's a speed

difference between them is wrong just

right out of the gate because complexity

is not about telling you how fast

something ran. And that's critical to

understand. It's so critical that

actually in in shipping code in

deployment sometimes you will use

algorithms that have worse scaling

complexity when you know what the n is

because the scaling complexity doesn't

matter because the n is low and the

constant's too high on the scaling

version right on the on the lower

complexity. So you can have times people

deploy an n squed algorithm instead of

an n login algorithm. You can have

people deploy an n login algorithm

instead of an no algorithm and so on and

so forth. That will absolutely happen

not because the person didn't know what

they're doing but because that was

actually the right choice for the scale

of problem they were working on. A quick

classic example, quicksort. Often for

the last few elements, we'll switch to

insertion sort because it's actually

faster to not quick sort on a bunch of

small items due to the stack invocation

and recursion cost comparatively to the

n squared algorithm worst or standard

case average case of insertion sort.

>> I didn't even know that. Uh well quick

sort quick sort's n squed

>> uh quick sort worst case is n squed

quicksort average case is and login and

so often inside of those also with merge

sort you'll break into an insertion sort

at the very bottom because it is just

better

>> and so there's a classic example where

scaling actually doesn't

>> you know is is traded off in the middle

just because of size.

>> Wow. I was thinking too prime of like uh

when we talked to Tiger Beetle a while

ago of how they like all of their like

so many places in the code they have

like some assert about the size of how

big something can be because they're

also like loading all of it ahead of

time and others but so it's like you

just say hey I think that this thing

should never get over 200 elements or a

thousand elements like it's cool because

then you can pick something that works

really good where n is less than a

thousand and it's like it's really fast

at that thing and then later if that

invariant breaks, you find out cuz you

have a debug failure or like some

warning or something that happens in

your system that can then you're like,

"Okay, cool." So now apparently we have

big enough customers that a thousand

isn't always the case. Sometimes it's

like 10 million for some reason or

something. We have some pathological

customer that does this. So then we got

to go fix that separately, which I

thought was really cool.

>> This actually John Carmarmac does.

>> John Carmarmac, if you don't know, does

the exact same thing in Doom and a bunch

of other places. he would assert like

the world can't have more than tw,000

items. That's just a that's just a

reality of life. We make all of our

decisions based off this one thing.

>> There's also cases where you know that

there's a limiting factor on the other

end.

>> Like for example, if you're like, look,

this thing is designed for 10 gigabit,

you know, Ethernet uplinks. So there you

go. like I know I know how much data is

flowing through this thing and it can't

ever be more than that because we don't

have you know and we're we will we will

fundamentally redesign this part of the

code if we switch to you know a higher

bandwidth connection or something like

that right or this screen like we know

that we're shipping on this console that

only supports 1080p so that's how many

pixels are on the screen like we know

that a particular region of the screen

can only have this many pixels so we're

making decisions based on that like so

you can definitely have situations too

where you even just know you're just

like look for the deployment scenario IO

we actually guarantee there is no

physical way that it can have a

different thing and at that point you're

free to make all kinds of decisions

based on n because you know what it is

but okay so then how do I know which

one's no I'm just kidding

>> so which one is faster

>> a lot of people like uh complexity is

one of those things where it's like the

um it's kind of a I guess since we were

talking about diagrams of and balls and

all that uh complexity theory is

definitely one of those things that I

feel is a just the tip kind of uh thing

in computer science where it's like do

you need to know complexity theory? A

lot of people ask this question, right?

Like do I need to know complexity theory

to like be a programmer? You absolutely

don't need to know complexity theory

because complexity theory is like forget

like okay you how do you prove something

is NP hard or something like like

actually knowing complexity theory I

don't know complexity theory. I don't

I'm not going to give you a dissertation

on pace or some like forget it right

it's not gonna happen.

>> Uh you do you do need to know yeah you

do need to know just the tip you need to

know like your basic like okay how do

algorithms scale with n roughly in terms

of how much memory they use and how much

like uh how how many concrete operations

whatever that operation is will they

have to do. That's something everyone

should know just for the basics like the

ones that were on this diagram probably

not exponential because almost nobody

uses exponential except in situations

where so this this may be getting ahead

of my out of my over my skis a little

bit but I would say that in general if

you're in the realm of exponential time

so you're thinking of things that are

like two to the n complexity or worse at

that point you may start wanting to know

more complexity like At that point,

you're in the in the realm of hardcore

algorithm design where you probably want

to know more than just the basics

because you're in you're going to start

needing to know things about heristics,

heristic based algorithms, randomized

algorithms, things that are like not

commonly thought about very much in you

know in work a day programming circles.

So once you are doing something that's

beyond n^ squ or n cubed and you're you

know out of polomial time at that point

you you may want to know more but

everything below that I'd say is a just

a tip situation.

>> Casey what happen if you have a a

salesman okay and he wants to start in

rapid city south Dakota. Okay, I'm

listening.

>> That's exactly what I That's exactly

what I was thinking of in my head when I

said that cuz like those kinds of

problems require a a deeper

understanding of of algorithm design and

the ways that we attack problems that

are sort of technically infeasible like

like theoretically you can't really

solve this problem efficiently. that

we've come up with lots of ways to, you

know, maybe not get the best answer, but

get a good enough answer that can be

used for humanity to do it whatever it

was trying to do. Can we prove uh that

we will we will get the best answer

every time? No. But we can get like

close, right? And that's you have to

kind of start to know uh that sort of

thing, right? Uh re by the way just I

know we're we're getting weird slightly

off but uh FedEx and uh UPS and USPS

they all have an actual uh NP problem

which of course is bin packing because

if you have x amount of boxes and you

have y amount of containers and you need

to be able to most efficiently pack

these boxes especially along a route now

you also have like multipplexing dystras

along with with bin packing. Very very

crazy. I mean they actually have a

really hard and interesting algorithm to

solve. I mean, even just basic things

like your your uh school. What is going

on, Prime? Oh my god,

>> that will literally break my teeth off

my mouth if I

crust on that Prime.

>> It was good. It was good. I just want to

taste it. You know,

>> now the heat's gone. If you just think

about like your local school district,

what the bus routes are and which order

they go in, that already is like there

are companies who specialize in solving

that problem because it it you need

heristic salt. Like you can't if you

even just the number of students in your

district being 500 or whatever it is is

enough to start to make it be like we

can't we can't guarantee you a perfect

solution. Like sorry like that's just

out of out of the bounds. So, we have to

do like things that, you know, take into

account that we have uh, you know, that

we don't have to get it perfect in order

for it to be good enough and and all

these other sorts of things. So,

>> at my high school, Casey, they they

wrote that down on the whiteboard. They

leave it overnight. See if anybody can

figure it out. Any janitors walking by?

>> Any janitors walking by?

>> Wait a minute. I've seen this.

>> Yeah. So, so we, you know, we always

look and I don't know. Last time I

looked at that sort of stuff, it was

kind of generally uh expected that look,

a lot of these kind of problems, you can

get very close to optimal solutions. You

you just there's certain like they have

these regions of their of their sort of

solution space that are just

extraordinarily hard. And so if the

input data happens to fall in those

areas, you are kind of screwed. If it

falls outside of those areas, then it's

okay. and you'll get, you know, you'll

typically get the solution you were

looking for, right? So anyway, my point

in all of that was just to say if that's

the kind of thing you're doing, you

should know, you should know more than

me about complexity at that point and

you should know more about than me about

like how you go about solving those kind

of problems with, you know, heristic

approaches, randomized approaches,

things like that because there's entire

theory of randomized algorithms. It's

very interesting actually, but it's like

I don't know it and a lot of programmers

don't know it uh because it doesn't come

up that often. Are you ready for Are you

ready for part two? So, can we say

goodbye to our squiggles? Our heart

heartbeat di We can all at least agree.

Heartbeat diagram terrible for

complexity visualization.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think what this really

is is an open challenge to Ben Dicken.

It was like

>> true.

>> We can like STEM Explorer has bested you

at every possible access. Not only is

the diagram even worse than the bouncing

balls, but it also is literally not

graphing anything even related to the

subject. Right? So I think that's why I

just reposted this and I think I said

something like your move Ben Dicken

because I feel like I feel like at this

point he has been so thoroughly

dethroned

>> that like he needs to come he needs to

come back and hit hard here because

>> I standard ball diagram is not going to

do it. Like he has been shown up

>> like significantly and it's gonna it's

going to be sad if he comes out with

something and it's not good enough to

get on the pod, Ben. Okay. So Ben, if

you're out there listening, we need

something big from you. All right, the

squad here, we're looking Q1 that's

going to be you have to deliver by the

end of Q2, but we need it in Q1 at the

very, you know, that's kind of what I'm

targeting. The world is Dickens.

>> They want to see your response to this

cuz STEM Explorer came out of the gate

here first time and just absolutely

crushed it.

>> I'm having a Dax moment over here.

>> You are. The one thing I will say about

the ball diagram, whether you hate it or

not, if the data was accurate, at least

there was some level of like meaning you

could kind of gather from it and go,

"Oh, yeah. I can see this one's slower

and that one's faster by how much and

all that." You couldn't really gather

this one. I can't gather any there.

There's actually no information here.

>> Why Why are the squiggles erasing on

>> I was I was I was going to try to spend

a moment to say that. I It really

bothers me that they end.

>> They're getting vacuumed up. Yeah,

there's no budget. There's no budget for

uh to keep them going.

>> I just really hate that they break at

the end like that,

>> right? Like I mean there's because it

does it with each one of them. As they

get to the end, it like wigs out.

>> Oh no, we've

>> Oh no, that's the I'm done merc. That's

like I finished.

You know, on the standup, we like to

come together and discuss some things

that very important people say that make

everybody else super upset. And this is

just one of those moments where what

I've just read somehow is the most

infuriating complic I've ever received.

And I'm sure many people have ever

received in their lifetime. And of

course, I'm talking about Mr. Sammy

Jippity Alman right here saying, "I have

so much gratitude to people who wrote

extremely complex software character by

character. It already feels difficult to

remember how much effort it really took.

Thank you for getting us to this point."

But okay, so

>> for the boys,

>> pack it up. We are done. Uh but I do I

really do love this idea that there is

no more complex software because it

hidden in this statement is that there

like software complexity is now

officially over.

>> Solved.

>> It's actually solved.

>> That's why cloud code doesn't flicker

anymore, right?

>> This is why GTA 6 supposedly will

release this year. Like there is rumors

that it's that it's coming out

>> way. Yeah.

I mean I I don't it's it's like almost

this is this is similar. These two

topics are feel very related to me,

right? Because the previous one was like

let's have a competition to see who can

post the worst graph, right? Was like

kind of what that was, right? And this

it's like it seems like that AI people

are doing like let's have a competition

to see who like people will dislike the

most, right? like like how do I become

some someone that literally no one likes

at all? And it's worth noting that it's

like including your customers like a

like they don't even want to be liked by

the people who are using their software

or they don't know that like I mean

unless they're really this unaware that

they don't see how insulting that is to

even people who are actively using their

software currently. Um I just it's crazy

it boggle like I don't even know if I

have a comment on that. I don't know

what to say about this. It's like it's

shocking.

>> I've got a hypothesis, Casey, which is

that, you know, they sort of feel like

they already won. And you know how when

you beat a video game, you can play it

back on like expert mode or like we've

I've been playing Slay Spire 2, climbing

my ascension ras, right? And each time

it adds like more difficulty, right?

Like start with a curse, you don't heal

all the way, etc. Um I feel like this is

kind of like, okay, well, we already

made like a trillion dollars. Can we do

it now if nobody likes us? Right. So

that's like

>> Right. Right.

>> So they're they're heaping those things

on. They're like, I'm going to win

biggest company in the world on

Ascension 20 Open AI Edition. I think

that that's probably

>> So you think at the beginning like like

Sam Alman, you know, for this round of

starting a company, it like it popped up

those little like pick which card you

want,

right? And one of them was get a lot of

money from people, but nobody likes you.

And and he picked like that was the that

was the modifier that he chose to play

the whole thing on.

>> Exactly. Fair enough.

>> Right. And then like round one was like

it had three options. It was like start

a nonprofit to save the world with AI.

Then like later it was like okay here's

a few forks in the road. One was like

continue the nonprofit. Everyone likes

you trying to make something for the

benefit of humanity. Option two was make

A TON OF MONEY.

>> YEAH. YEAH,

>> DUDE. When I read this tweet, I had like

a visualization in my head as like as I

was reading it as him like saying this,

but he was escorting like some old

person off the stage like kind of just

giving him this backhand comment and

then just kicking him off the stage and

then it was like let's here's the real

show kind of thing. Like cuz this is

stuff I tweeted this too, but this is

like the exact well at least my

emotional response was this is a message

of like when you lay somebody off like

thank you for all your hard work at the

company.

>> He LinkedIn posted it, bro.

>> Dude, like legit. And I was just like,

man, like when you're typing these

things, if he is the one typing these

things, like does he just hit send? Like

that's a good tweet. Like I don't I

don't

they're going to love that one. Like how

like what what is that scene look like?

I would love to just see like

surveillance of him posting this

>> and what he think is that he's I think

he and like Zuckerberg and a few of

these people fall into what is known as

the lizard category. And so I I

genuinely believe that he was just like,

"You know what? There was a lot of

people who I've taken all of their work

from and then making the biggest company

in the universe ever. I need to thank

those people. I'm going to thank them

right now. Here we go, boys." And like

got his team together like, "Okay, hold

on." Oh man, it was so complex. Step by

step. Oh my gosh. Hand coded

>> character.

>> But dude, it's like honestly it's hard

to even remember how hard that was. Does

he even know how hard it like does he

has he ever shipped anything that was

like a piece of

>> looped?

>> What is loop?

>> I don't know what that is.

>> Oh, okay. Pause.

>> I'll do I'll do a brown bag lunch on

this in a little bit. Okay. So, I'll

bring

>> You did brown bag world coin. So, I do

feel like you have to brown bag world uh

>> I'll brown bag looped for you later,

Casey. We'll we'll we'll bring you up to

speed on that. Make sure everyone brings

their own lunch, etc. Lunch will not be

provided. Just want to make that clear.

Uh but I will be providing a

presentation for that. Yeah.

>> All right. All right.

>> Yeah. I don't know. I This is just

really bizarre to me and it doesn't

So I I think I actually talked about

Dimmitri. I talked to Demetri about

something like this at one point. Um he

was obviously on the podcast last week

uh talking about AI stuff and

the way he said it, I don't want to

misrepresent him here, but he I asked

him this question. I was like given that

AI companies will face like a bunch of

lawsuits, regulatory hurdles, things

like this like societ they will run into

the bureaucratic elements of society and

they will have to navigate those right

um and and I'll point out they also will

have to navigate things that are worse

than that. So, uh, you know, I I don't

want to say anything that will get us

marked badly on YouTube, but let's just

say that like a data center is a pretty

easy target for civil unrest. I'll put

it that way, right?

>> True.

>> So, there's a lot of things that you

want if if you were really serious about

this. You're like, I want to make a

company that does this AI stuff and I

want to make sure that it succeeds and

does well. There's a lot of things you

would care about with respect to public

opinion and you would never say any of

the things that Sam Alman says ever,

right? If you were Sam Alman and you had

any self-awareness, you would not appear

in public. You would have somebody else

who was your person who appears in

public and it would never be you. That's

what you would do, right? Because nobody

likes him and when he opens his mouth,

he says things that make people very

angry. The in terms of the general

public, right? Not talking about

programmers or whatever. We're talking

about like the general public when they

hear from Sam Alman, they really don't

like it. He was recently just had

another one where he talked about how uh

if you compare the the cost of training

an AI to how much a human consumes, the

AI is actually better. Like no one

should ever say like if you care about

this as actually getting this thing

adopted, you would never say anything

like that, right? Yes. Because because

you should you should have someone out

there who understands how hum how actual

humans perceive things, right? Which is

not Sam Alman. That's that lizard thing

I was telling you about.

>> It's the lizard thing. You're right

about same Zuckerberg. They just they

have fundamentally no idea what a human

is like. Um even though they've seen

them before, they just aren't sure what

they do, right? They're like, "Huh?" And

so, uh, and so to me, I was like, why is

that? Like how does and how does no one

else step in and go like cuz I mean you

know when you're looking at a company

like OpenAI with these investors putting

billions of dollars in it. Someone would

in theory come along and be like uh Sam

thanks for all your hard work. You're

not going to be the they're going to

they'd palmer lucky him like they did at

Facebook right they're like you don't

get to talk to the public anymore. We're

you know we're replacing like that kind

of thing happens all the time for

reasons that are strictly about

appearances or public you know

perception.

>> What is that reference? I sorry I don't

know the Palmer Lucky thing at

>> Palmer Lucky uh well you know again

trying not to get into politics too much

Palmer Lucky was on the politically

wrong side of an issue early on when his

company Oculus was acquired by Facebook

now Meta uh they weren't obviously Meta

at the time because they were just

acquiring Oculus uh and he was basically

forced out of a leadership position

there and he ended up leaving the

company and that was purely

>> and he was the like to be

Wonder kid front of magazines super like

>> he was on the cover of Time magazine

>> everywhere like I do remember him being

>> the father of VR like everything he was

it wasn't just like oh like some random

guy got fired like he's he was the

wonder kid for them.

>> Yeah. He was like Jimmy Neutron is like

my ex expectation of him. He was

actually like a a very talented

individual that was like

>> way out there when it comes to talent

and building stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, whatever you think about him, he

got forced out. Yeah, right. Like no one

disagrees with that. I don't think

that's not a controversial thing to say.

Like he did not voluntarily decide to

leave Facebook and their VR division

because he just wasn't feeling it that

day. He got for like he was forced to

leave uh the division that he was, you

know, that he had

>> that was his entire thing he wanted to

do. Like this was a thing that he

started in his bedroom doing, right? He

wanted to see if you could use phone

displays and stuff like that to produce

a real VR headset. Now, was the

technology ready? Right. And here he was

getting the opportunity to do that and

he got forced out for political reasons.

>> So something as simple as that, you can

force someone out.

>> They're not forcing Sam Alman out,

>> right? Nobody's telling Daario just to

keep his mouth closed, right? Like

that's not happening.

>> And so

are pretty funny these days.

>> My question was why? This is what I was

asking. I asked me I was like why? Like

what's going on there? because surely

the investors realize that it's better

uh for this, right? And what he said was

possibly somewhat convincing actually.

What he said was they have two choices

is what he said to me. One is they

garner public support or the other is

they garner investor support and they

went with investor support. And what he

meant by that was

>> if you tell a story about how AI is just

going to be beneficial for everybody and

that people won't be losing their jobs

and that it will just be like oh it'll

be easier to get your work done or

whatever it is whatever the publicly

we're just empowering artists were not

taking their jobs that can't raise the

level of investment that you can from

private investors if you tell them

you're putting everyone out of work. So

he said they had two choices. One was to

go and say that we're putting everyone

out of work and we're basically going to

be a pariah because everyone's going to

pay us and no one's going to pay anyone

else and raise their trillion dollars.

Or they could actually say something

positive, but they wouldn't be able to

raise that kind of money because it

doesn't sound like you're replacing the

entire industry with one computer and

they chose the one that gets them the

investment. And I was like, okay, that's

that's a pretty reasonable that's a

pretty reasonable way to say that that

could very well be the case. That makes

a lot of sense.

>> So you don't think about it that way at

all.

>> So you Well, this is why it's great to

talk to Demetri, right? It's why it's

why I'm doing that podcast is because he

has a lot of really interesting things

to say and he knows these people.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm just kidding.

>> He knows those people like he he's

interacted with a lot of these people

personally. He knows a lot of them in in

that field and so he has like some

perspective on why they do what they do.

It's like, yeah, so they could replace

Sam Alman with somebody who was much

more appealing to the public. And maybe

they will after they secure, right,

>> enough trillions of dollars. Then you're

like, okay, thanks. Thanks, Sam. Right.

>> Now, let's put a nice face on this thing

to try.

>> Then they hire Matthew McConna.

>> Exactly.

>> That's who I would hire.

>> Well, well, yeah.

>> I like DJ. All right.

>> Matthew McConna. That's the solution to

this thing.

>> I'm telling you, you guys seen him in

the Lincoln commercials? I mean, he

seems like a guy who you would trust,

>> you know? It's like that makes sense to

me.

>> I like Billy Bob Thorne. I trust him.

>> He could be like, he could be like, "I

don't stress." The mask behind could be

like, "I don't stress about it. I just

ask Chad GPT."

>> That's what I'm saying. You'd be like,

"He's so right, bro. He's so right. He's

so right."

>> So, just ask Chad GPT.

>> I Matthew McConna gets hired by OpenAI.

You guys are gonna You guys are going to

eat your words right here. Trash. Okay.

I mean, I love Matthew Mccane, too, man.

>> It's Matthew McConna AI.

>> Yes. He's going to legally change his

name.

>> Like like uh like um Oh, uh Will I Am

did right to the dots.

>> Oh, no. Will I Am

>> great, Casey. Nice pull.

>> Deep pull, right?

>> Remember when he made a smartwatch? No

one does. I do.

>> Uh Shakira, these chips don't lie.

COME ON. THAT WOULD BE A CRAZY I CAN'T

THINK of anything campaign.

>> That would be a crazy ad campaign.

>> Sitting here right now, I'm actually

slightly shocked that Will I am hasn't

announced an AI company. Maybe he has

and it just couldn't make it up. But

that would be so something he would do,

right?

>> Black eyed peas, right?

>> Originally, yes. But then he had his a

solo

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> career. I was trying to make sure I'm

thinking of the same person.

>> Yeah. I have no idea who that is to tell

you the truth. Okay, I was a great

>> Prime. There's an era that you probably

missed out on because, you know, maybe

you're not quite as old as I am, but

>> there was an era where companies,

especially internet companies, uh, but

not exclusively, like companies like

Intel, for example,

had sort of brand ambassador positions.

And these were people who were like

enthusiastic about technology but didn't

really have all that much to do with it.

Will I am was one. Shingi. Does anyone

remember Shingi?

>> That sounds

>> say Chingi.

>> Nope. Shingi. He was he was an

experimental artist who was like a brand

ambassador for I can't I can't even

remember which company but a major

company like Huelet Packard or I don't

remember who it was but like and they

would produce these videos that were

just like you know them talking about

how cool technology is but

non-specifically this was a whole thing

that happened and there's more I'm not

remembering the world there's several

other celebrities who were like in that

vein and you're just like what is going

on but that was just it was cool for a

style in like the early 2000s to have

like this pseudo like it's usually

belist like it's not you know uh I'm not

trying to think of who the A-listers

it's not Jennifer Lawrence who is or

right it's not A-list celebrity someone

who's like launching a major motion

picture just below like B tier somebody

that people have heard of but is like

you know

>> prime like prime

>> dude that'd be so good dude I'd

definitely do that dude healer Patrick

>> and be like look at this printer

I got all these inks.

>> I got all the inks, BABY.

>> I GOT ALL THESE INKS.

>> Speaking of NAME COLOR. NAME A COLOR

RIGHT NOW. I GOT IT.

>> PRIME. Can I tell the story about what

happened on the call for nothing but

net?

>> Sure. I don't even know what the story

is, but you could you could

>> What does remind me of you saying Help

Packard and like we I'll call it HP and

you like not knowing acronyms. So, we're

doing an event next week with Sentry uh

in at the Chase Center, which is where

Golden State Warriors play. We have to

go to a game afterwards. We're going to

do something very fun. It's going to be

a surprise. Actually, we can't tell you

what our actual thing is. I'll tell you,

Casey afterwards. Um and trash.

>> Secret details. Sorry, chat. You're not

going to get to know this. Only I get to

know.

>> Yes.

>> And me and me.

>> Yeah. Or they have to come in person.

>> Trash. You might get kicked out.

>> Yeah. Oh. Um,

>> snacks he's provided.

>> We're like 15 minutes into the call with

them and there's someone from Golden

State on the call. Sentry's on the call.

Me and Prime are on the call. They've

said things like, you know, the GSW

staff will do this or like me, you know,

go through GSW this blah blah. They've

said the the acronym GSW about 35 times

at least. And we're 15 minutes into the

call and finally Prime goes,

>> "So what is GSW?"

>> Cuz I'm like, "Get [ __ ] one." Like I

kept saying in my head, "Get [ __ ] one."

I had no idea.

>> Yeah. Is that like graphics software or

>> Golden State Warriors?

>> I had no idea you guys were doing it

there. That's crazy.

>> Oh my goodness. And we're on the call.

Like you we've been talking about the

Warriors. We've been talking. It's not

like we were surprised about what NBA

team is at the place.

>> Golden State. What is the Golden State?

New Jersey. What is the Golden State?

>> SAN

I DON'T KNOW THAT ACRONYM. What's Golden

State?

>> Golden State. That's It's the San

Francisco team.

>> Golden State. Steph Curry.

>> Okay.

>> Golden State.

>> That's even better.

>> I don't know basketball at all.

>> That's fine.

>> Oh, I miss Oh crap. I missed my chance

again. I was supposed to say something

like I don't follow hockey. That's

twice. I missed an obvious setup. Damn

it. I thought you were going to say

something like, "I never watch moving

balls on the screen. I hate that crap."

>> Yeah, exactly. All these balls bouncing

bouncing people cannot comprehend Spade.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh,

>> all right. So, Golden State Warriors is

the San Francisco basketball team.

>> Yeah,

>> I believe so.

>> Possibly the greatest player ever.

>> Yes,

>> possibly. Okay,

>> maybe.

>> All right. So, I I do want to Hey, I in

my own personal defense, I would like to

say that we're ending the podcast. It is

one of my strengths that I am willing to

ask any question.

>> That part was good. I was proud of you.

I was proud of you that you asked even

though it was like awkwardly late into

the call. It was just it the

>> I thought I could just pick it up. I

thought I could just pick it up.

Honestly, I was like, "Oh, they used it

once. I'll probably get it the second

time. They used the second time." I'm

like,

>> I really don't understand it from this

context. Here we go. I have

>> it just cracked me up because it was

like just it happened to be if it was

just Sentry and not someone from Golden

State Warriors, I wouldn't have even

laughed or thought it was that funny.

But it was just because we had someone

from the org there. Correct.

>> That's like a record scratch moment.

>> Hey guys, if you like this episode, you

can watch the rest of it on the Spotify.

And don't forget to LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE.

WOO! See you later. Mood up the day.

V coating errors on my screen.

Terminal coffee

and

living the dream.