These are the richest people on earth

and they're so manifestly unhappy. They

just can't shut the [ __ ] up with tiny,

petty, angry, unhappy people. They all

are. Every single one of them.

>> [music]

>> Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott

Galloway. Ted Turner, the media mogul

CNN founder who helped create the

24-hour news cycle has died at 87.

Turner was also a major philanthropist

making a record $1 billion donation to

establish the United Nations Foundation.

He was a different kind of billionaire.

You know, although he was also the he

was called the mouth of the south. Um,

beyond media and philanthropy, Turner

pursued countless other passions from

his Montana Grill, his eco This is a eco

conscious restaurant chain being named

yachtsman of the year multiple times. He

was Larry Ellison before Larry Ellison.

Uh, he announced he had Lewy body

dementia, progressive brain disorder in

2018.

Jane Fonda, one of Turner's ex-wives who

remained a close friend, remembered him

saying, "Men like Ted aren't supposed to

express need and vulnerability. That was

Ted's greatest strength, I believe." And

he was and she I recently interviewed

her and she had told me he was quite

ill.

Um, I I talked to him a little bit for

my book so on AOL. He was real mad about

the sale and everything else. Um, except

that when he sold the company, he had

that famous quote where

where he said, um, "This deal was better

than sex." Do you remember that? He was

He always had something kooky to say

Mhm. at any one moment. And I you know,

a lot of people are like, "Oh, he's the

reason we have terrible cable." His

vision of cable was not this what has

happened. So, I I sort of push back

against that because his idea was that

you can get news to to sort of

democratize the news a little more from

the big three. And so, I consider him a

real important his legacy very important

even though even though it sort of you

know, morphed into this scream fest that

it has become. But, his was it was, you

know, it was it was real news. And and I

was happen to be with Christiane

Amanpour who got there pretty early, not

right away at the beginning. And she had

nothing but great things to say about

his tenure when he was sort of do real

entrepreneurial news

news and other things, you know, and a

very a very generous and charitable

person at the same time. And also funny

and weird and interesting.

Your thoughts.

Yeah, this guy is,

you know, he kind of defined the term

that you don't hear anymore, a captain

of industry.

And the term captain, he was the

Something people don't know about him is

I think he may be the only billionaire

who was also

an elite world-class athlete. He won the

America's Cup. Yeah, he did. And there

are just aren't very many billionaires

who have reached the pinnacle of a

sport. And

um

maybe Roger Staubach, is he a

billionaire now? Anyways,

but he built CNN from nothing. It's

really interesting how it emerged. So,

news when we were growing up was a

public service, and that is ABC and CBS

sold a [ __ ] ton of ads from Tang and

Chevrolet running against All in the

Family and MASH and The Partridge Family

and The Brady Bunch. And they felt that

it was a public service to have 23

minutes of news and 7 minutes of

commercial in this money-losing thing

called the local news.

And he said he correctly

figured out that there was

money in a market for 24/7 news. It was

very scrappy. If you look go back, it

wasn't very well produced.

And he's he started the whole thing.

Now, where it came off the tracks

was quite frankly with Rupert Murdoch

recognizing that the part of the news

they made an observation, and that is

KABC news back in the '70s had something

called Point/Counterpoint. And SNL used

[clears throat] to mock it. You know,

Yeah, Jane Ignorance Slap. our show

pretty much, but go ahead. Anyways, so

um

uh so

they recognized something called point

counterpoint and it was Bruce

Herschensohn and Jim Tunney and they

would start yelling at each other.

And someone did the analysis is and

found out that's what people were tuning

in for. Yeah, I know.

>> And that was really the key and arguably

the most dangerous insight that Rupert

Murdoch made. Yeah, and of course he was

>> no, this isn't about balance. It's

enough news to keep to give to create a

halo of legitimacy.

And quite frankly, CNN was guilty of it,

too. Crossfire. Yeah.

>> And CNN now has a show like that where

they all just start yelling at each

other. And then Tucker where Tucker

Carlson started. Yeah, and and Michael

Kinsley Remember Tucker and Michael just

going at it?

Um and that seemed civil compared to

what

>> did. It actually when you watch it, it's

actually

>> It seems patrician. It seems

>> It's intelligent. It's intelligent. It

is Digressing has become something that

is

I don't know. It's a longer talk show.

Let's get back to Ted Turner.

He gave away a billion dollars. He

actually gave away a billion dollars to

the UN. I would argue when the UN

actually meant something. Something also

people constantly ask me for male role

models for kind of a positive

aspirational form of masculinity.

I think Ted Turner is a great role

model. One let's just go let's just go

to the male stuff.

Very aggressive.

Also

politically incorrect.

When Time Warner when Time Warner was

acquired by CNN, Gerald Levin introduced

the whole thing and said and now I want

to introduce my best friend Ted Turner

and Ted stood up and said, "Best friend,

I've never been to your [ __ ] house."

Yeah, he was good. And then my favorite

was when he did an all hands and it was

asked Wednesday and there were a bunch

of people in the audience with ashes on

their forehead. He's like, "Shouldn't

you be working at Fox?"

Oh.

>> [laughter]

>> The guy was

>> funny. I think there's a certain charm

in a world now where everything is so, I

don't know. It's He was a different time

period. He wasn't malleable in that way.

>> He was charitable, he was visionary, he

was aggressive, 14 grandchildren, I

think 14 or 12 grandchildren.

>> to Jane Fonda. She still loves him, she

told me. She was She's still in

>> and also took his seat and his privilege

and his wealth

as an obligation to serve and connect

nations with each other. He was very

serious about uniting nations and trying

to promote world peace. He saw his

wealth and his seat as an obligation

that he was he was optimizing for

service, not for attention. Yeah. He's a

really I would I urge people, if they're

blaming what cable is now on him, not

to. It's not what he That was not his

vision. I was around for that, and it

became that, and it was not his. He He

may have created the 24 and they did

take advantage. Remember the thing that

really sent them over the top was that

the girl down the well? Remember the

girl down the well story? Oh, yeah. Wow.

That's what That's That's what

Christiane was She She's like, "Oh,

that's the thing that really got people

watching."

>> That and the Iraq war. Yeah, and but you

saw

moments of that where Remember the Studs

Terkel Arthur Arthur Arthur Kent? Like

it started to turn. It's That's when you

started to sort of see the beginnings of

kind of the circus acts of these cable

stations. And I was thinking that as I

was, you know, I went on Sky News and

BBC and stuff like that. And like the

constant haunt of And I think it's a

very serious I'm worried about

hantavirus, but

the the the constant Let's go back to

the cruise ship. Let's go back to the

And I was like, this Actually, we're in

a war in Iran. I feel like perhaps we

need to head over there and take a look

at what's had the cruising going on in

the Strait of Hormuz. But it it He is a

He is a great legacy and a great guy.

>> Shaw Bernard Shaw, amazing.

>> Daniel Shaw

Yeah.

>> Oh, my dad's favorite for the wrong

reasons, Bobby Batista.

Oh, yeah, Bobby. Well, that was great.

It was great It was And I grew up on

CNN.

>> Yeah, and Christiane Amanpour.

>> I genuinely believe a decent

administration

would be CNN anchors. Dana Bash should

be president. She is smart, she's

elegant, and she could smother you in

your sleep. She's got that edge to her,

which every president needs.

If you crossed her

>> [gasps]

>> Yeah.

>> Uh

Anderson should be vice president. Any

problems with the Pope, he just goes

over there, just talks about grief.

Everybody loves him, competent enough.

>> [laughter]

>> Okay. Fareed Zakaria, Secretary of

State, hands down. Hands down. All

right. Uh Michael Smerconish, he could

be uh Secretary of Commerce or Labor. I

That Tell me that Tell me that cabinet

>> anything? I'm a contributor. Do I get

like an ambassadorship to something?

>> Oh, you're ambassador to Guyana. We've

already decided this here. Okay, we're

going to we're going to move [laughter]

on because

>> me from myself here.

>> I'm saving you from yourself. Because

it's interesting I don't think Ted

Turner He didn't like the AOL Time

Warner deal. I That I did speak to him

about. First, he was like it was better

than sex. The deal was the best thing I

ever did, better than sex. And then

afterwards, he like totally publicly

decried it publicly. And one thing that

um

Barry Diller I think told him was like,

"If you sell your house and they wreck

they wreck the patio, you need to shut

up. You sold the house." And

I didn't necessarily agree with him on

that, but it was

he definitely had much regrets and he

probably wouldn't be thrilled where from

the latest numbers from Warner Bros.

Discovery. The company reported a net

loss of 2.9 billion in the latest

quarter. That's essentially a 2.8

billion dollar termination fee tied to

the Netflix deal. Paramount agreed to

cover the cost, but the expense still

sits on Warner's books until the deal

officially closes. For people who don't

see why that was that big of a loss.

Nonetheless, the first quarter revenue

was down 1% year over year and ad

revenue slid 7%. Total streaming revenue

did rise 9% largely by HBO Max went

international. Um Paramount had slightly

better news to report beating revenue

and earnings expectations in the first

quarter. Paramount added uh 700,000

subscribers during the quarter helping

streaming revenue grow by 17% year over

year. The company's film studio did well

with revenue up 11%. Um and they said

they're making great progress on the

Warner Brothers deal with late Q3

closing still on track. There's still

some pushback to it. Um

at the same time I'm going to add one

more earnings. Disney's under the first

new CEO Josh D'Amaro, the numbers were

strong with revenue climbing 7% to 25 uh

billion. Operating income across

Disney's entertainment, sports, and

experience division beat expectations.

The company says it expects earnings per

share to grow 12% is solid in the fiscal

year. And one weak spot, um a dip in

attendance at its US theme parks

probably due to fewer international pro-

travelers are going to see repercussions

from gas prices, I'm guessing, and other

prices. But it's only down 1%. Maybe the

next quarter is where you're going to

see it over the summer. That That will

be the real indicator there. Um any

thoughts on on the Warner and

everything? They're just sort of bumping

along these companies. So Warner

Brothers

117 adjusted GAAP versus

estimates of 9 cents, which is actually

pretty good. They had a 45% beat.

Operating margin was down, but are

mostly flat.

The linear networks continue to bleed.

The revenue fell 8%

uh with domestic pay TV subscribers down

10% and free cash flow was 476 million

and net leverage

sits at 3.4 x. Uh the Paramount deal is

expected to close Q3, which will form a

company with

69 billion in pro forma revenue. If

there's a book

if you wrote a book called the worst

acquisitions in history, you could just

call the book Time Warner. It is every

True. They are at the center of the

I mean three of the five worst

acquisitions in history all involved

Time Warner. Yeah, and then AT&T. It's

just in They will, right? Yeah, and this

one I think will go down as in terms of

shareholder value destruction

Um Paramount posted a clean beat and

streaming turned its first real profit.

Revenue of 7

uh 0.35 billion versus 7.28. EPS of 23

cents versus 15 cents expected. I mean

companies are just It's just incredible.

Companies are just blowing away their

earnings.

Their direct-to-consumer revenue was up

11%.

Paramount Plus revenue up 17%. I wonder

how much of that is land men. They added

700,000 net subscribers to reach

um 79.6 million um in total.

Direct-to-consumer EBITDA improved to

251 million. Uh TV media revenue fell 6%

to 3.7 billion as cord cutting

continues.

And Paramount has nearly doubled its

film slate for 20 26 versus 2025 since

closing the Skydance deal last August,

which to their credit

>> that.

>> Yeah, everyone's been saying oh they're

going to gut Hollywood and they're

coming out swinging and they're doubling

their film slate.

>> is is it going to make money, right?

That's the issue. Let's see what

happens.

>> yeah. in these earnings. So let's just

wait until they You can You can spend

the money. I mean that's what rich

people do, but let's see if they make

it. If they have some hits, if they have

some hits. And so Josh D'Amaro's first

earning call as CEO reported a a really

strong beat. Shares gained roughly 7%

after the report, but here's the thing.

A

100% of this beat

the credit goes to Bob Iger.

Someone doesn't impact earnings 2 weeks

after they take the CEO job. This beat

was really ringing the bell for for Bob

Iger. Revenue at 25.2 billion versus

24.8 expected. Earnings of about 57

versus 149 expected. Streaming operating

income jumped 88%

to 582

million dollars and Disney's streaming

margins

broke into the double digits at almost

11%. Their streaming revenue hit 5 and a

half billion up 13% driven by price

hikes.

And Disney's no Disney no longer reports

subscriber numbers, which is a shame,

but their experiences that you reference

was 7% which must be an increase in

prices cuz as you mentioned um

Numbers are down. Attendance is down.

And they also have raised their buyback

target similar to what Apple did last

week and guided for 12 I think Disney I

think Disney is a is a buy and Demario

is you know, he came out of the the

parks

um and which grew nearly 40% in revenue

under his watch.

And he called Disney Plus the digital

centerpiece of the company on

Wednesday's earnings. He flagged fuel

and consumer spending.

Dana Walden who I know you know named

president chief creative officer

That was an important keep for those at

company the keeping her cuz she was a

CEO and she was the top contender.

>> only that they're all I mean quite

frankly a lot of these people are

probably

I mean this is the challenge when your

stock is below where it was 10 years

ago.

You have to get the most talented people

in the room and say I'm going to issue

new options and please stick around.

Cuz you got to think a lot of these

people are looking at So what is their

option?

Yeah, because

>> Producers that's a harder now. You can't

be as good a you can't do those sweet

sweet deals.

>> Yeah, but if you're a Disney if you're a

talented Disney executive you could

absolutely land

you know

>> I would stay. See now I would stay

because you have power. I agree and your

options

>> pieces of that you know pieces of wood

floating. I don't know. I just thought

it would sink. that's interesting. I

hadn't thought of that analogy. I like

that. Um That was from The Devil Wears

Prada, too, but go ahead. I thought it

was from the Titanic, isn't it?

>> It is, but it was They She just said

that. She goes, "We just got on the last

I was long it was going to be before you

mentioned The Devil Wears Prada, too.

It's killing it. Still killing it.

>> [clears throat]

>> It's great.

>> Let's go over every movie that's

actually making money. Um And it is

making money.

>> Yeah, it's making It's making a ton.

It's It's It's going to change the

world.

>> it.

>> Lawrence of Arabia meets The Sound of

Music meets the sixth sound. Let's move

along. But

Disney stock is down more than 10%

year-to-date despite despite

back-to-back earnings beats. I don't

know if it's because everyone's giving

up on traditional media or because AI is

sucking all the oxygen out of every

other company of the other 490 in the

S&P, but I think Disney actually right

now is a really good buy and I wouldn't

be surprised

if it's put in play in the next 3 to 6

months. You divide

>> saying that. By whom? To Apple? To

Because Apple was looking at Perplexity,

allegedly. Uh an activist.

Oh. An activist comes in and says, "You

need to cut 20% of your staff or you

need to put the company up for sale."

Which they did with with Iger. I mean,

Iger went through that, right? Several

times, I think. Yeah, but Iger had so

much credibility, he was able to back

This stock

>> cuz this is a new CEO. Disney has this

unbelievable franchise. Or it might be

corporate restructuring. Go good bank

bad bank. Spin out the parks into its

own business and I mean They decided not

to, as you know. They were going to get

rid of ABC at one point and then they

decided to keep ESPN. I think that's one

of Demaro's first decisions.

>> And an activist will argue that their

decisions have been really poor because

this company has probably the greatest

collection of IP in the world, a booming

parks business, and yet the stock is

trading below where it was in 2016.

This is sort of I got to think there's a

lot of activist alighting

>> old sort of unpleasant like per motor.

No. If I had to bet on any firm that

shows up forcefully and dignified, it

would be Elliott.

Um and by the way, I don't know

anything. I haven't talked to them about

this. The

but I wouldn't be surprised.

Unfortunately, it'll probably be someone

like um

Pelts, but he's more consumer. I

wouldn't put it past

>> Pelts was in the last one, I think, with

Paramount. I don't know. I think if

Netflix stock was was

I don't I I think Netflix and Disney

this merger be the merger between

Netflix and Disney could never happen

under an administration that didn't have

its that didn't have a FTC or DOJ that

was in a slumber.

So, if there was any desire to do that,

it would the now would be the time. And

if you had

>> Brendan is not it doesn't like Disney.

It's in his it's in his sights. Who

doesn't like Disney? Brendan Carr.

Brendan, I call him Brendan.

Yeah, but well He's specifically called

out Disney like by name saying he

doesn't like

>> doesn't get to decide antitrust. It goes

it's the I mean, I guess could he lead

it?

The bottom line is Disney and Netflix

right now Disney is cheap right now.

Netflix and Disney in a wind up would be

game over. If you took

Netflix's IP including Wednesday,

Stranger Things, Bridgerton and used it

to go vertical and create experiences in

parks,

I just think it'd be I just think it'd

be incredible. By the way, I I it

shouldn't happen. It would be too much

concentration of media. But from a I

would buy shares in that company. Yeah,

absolutely. I don't think it'll happen.

You're probably right. I don't know why

it shouldn't because they have a lot of

companies to go up against these tech

companies, but I don't know. Anyway,

it'll be it'll be interesting to see. It

was fine. It was perfectly fine. It was

like, okay. It's so funny. You know,

when Ted Turner when that deal happened,

I mean, media that was the top for

media, wasn't it? Like when AOL Time

Warner happened, I think. It was like

they were running the [ __ ] show. They

were the kings of the

road and then they weren't. Like it's

been a downward downward downward slide

for traditional media. The fall of

traditional media for me is

embodied by

when I first moved to New York in 2000

and like all single people in their 30s,

we would pile eight people into a house

in

Bridgehampton.

And every weekend was

a mad scramble to see who we knew at

Condé Nast,

who knew what magazine was throwing the

most fabulous party in the Hamptons.

And and whether it was Details or Vogue,

and the job, the masters of the

universe, were these was the creators

and the business people working at Condé

Nast magazines in the magazine group.

>> And in the journalism business, I have

to tell you I was like the internet

person and they like treated me like

[ __ ] Like they were like, "Oh, you're

part of the internet."

>> You know, and you're No, the No, it was

Ponzi scheme. It was Ponzi scheme. Oh,

it's not going It's going to It's all a

bunch of It's going to go away. And the

media reporters was such snot bags. I

have

to tell you they just were. And I was

like, "I don't I think you're in

trouble." I was And they're like, "You

don't know. They're going to run the

show and media media media." And I was

like, "Well, I think there's got some

vulnerabilities there." But they I I'll

never It was the same thing. It was sort

of a It was Well, too bad. Well, that's

what happened. Anyway, um let's go on a

quick break. We come back Anthropic gets

into bed with Elon and SpaceX. Hmm. Lock

that metaphor.

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Scott, we're back. Anthropic CEO Dario

Amodei says the company planned for 10x

growth this year, but is now seeing

growth closer to 80x, creating a massive

need for more computing power. Enter

SpaceX, or rather SpaceX AI. SpaceX

acquired XAI back in February, but Elon

Musk has just revealed XAI will be

dissolved and its AI products will be

part of the SpaceX AI brand, of course,

cuz everybody left and he he didn't It

didn't have quite the traction that he

had hoped, so he's, as I said, folding

it right in. Everything's going to get

folded. Tesla's next. Under the new

deal, Anthropic will get compute power

with uh SpaceX AI data center in

Memphis, the one that's polluting

people, as it works to keep up with

surging demand. Everybody needs power. A

real turnaround for Elon, who earlier

called Anthropic evil. He's now saying

he was impressed after meeting with

senior executive, adding no one set off

my evil detector.

I I again, look in the [ __ ] mirror.

Dude. Um

So, is is this the enemy of my enemy is

my friend because of ChatGPT? This is an

interesting thing. I mean, obviously,

Elon's has not had the success he had

hoped he hoped to dominate, and it's all

about his beef with Sam Altman, but in

this case, he's This is what he's doing.

I would I would be careful if I was

Dario in general, but um [clears throat]

I I think he's savvy enough to deal with

Elon, though. Um and he seems to have

have enough pushback. Um any thoughts on

this?

Uh, I'd rather talk about me and the

odds and reminisce a little bit longer.

Is that okay?

>> [laughter]

>> Just for a second. So, I started

>> Okay, but I want thoughts on this.

>> I had [clears throat] I'm

moving to New York from San Francisco. I

had just been

abused, rode

ridden hard and put away wet by Sequoia

Capital, kicked off the board of the

kicked out of the band I started, kicked

off of the board of the company I

started, just like

got divorced just like I I just wanted I

wanted to never go back to San Francisco

the rest of my life. And I moved to New

York.

>> ask you a question. Did you deserve it

just a little bit?

>> Did I deserve what?

>> What happened with Sequoia? I'm just

asking. I'm just curious. Oh, I I I was

an obnoxious aggressive entrepreneur

that was arrogant and reckless. Okay.

>> Uh, but also Mike Moritz is a small

vindictive man. Okay, got it.

>> Um, so uh, so yeah. I I don't I think

there's enough blame to go around for

everyone.

>> Okay. And also the board was a bunch of

a bunch of obsequious people getting

Anyways.

Um,

I'm still not triggered. I'm clearly

over it. I'm clearly over it.

>> All of you are still to this day.

>> over it. Anyways, I moved back to New

York and I started an e-commerce

incubator backed by Goldman, JP Morgan,

Maveron, Howard Howard Schultz's

company,

and it was near impossible to recruit

people to come to work for a technology

incubator. And I would take people out

who were working at traditional media,

who were making five or six hundred

thousand dollars a year, and I'd say, "I

can only pay you 200, but I'm going to

give you 2 million options on 2 million

shares." And I would have to walk them

through

what options were.

Oh, wow.

>> They The ecosystem I couldn't even use a

New York-based law firm because they

didn't do venture. People don't realize

New York in 2000 was about finance, it

was about media.

There was no You know what the

>> There were a couple. There were a couple

little ones. guilt I mean, there was a

guilt in there was Oh, guilt.

There was guilt in the Kevin Ryan's

company and then there was

the one ad company that got sold to

There was no technology. There really

wasn't. Whatsoever.

Oh, the one that bought was bought by

Yahoo. Tumblr. Tumblr. There's two.

Tumblr was in New York. Tumblr. The

worst acquisition in history.

>> In history. The worst acquisition in

history. I broke that story. Nice to

meet you, but yeah. In the same 60 days,

uh

Mark Zuckerberg made the best

acquisition in history. For a billion he

bought Instagram. It's now worth I think

probably a half a trillion to a trillion

dollars.

And Marissa Mayer said I'm a baller and

she bought Tumblr for a billion dollars,

which 7 years later got sold for how

much? A couple million. 3 million

dollars. It was a collection of It was a

collection of blocks.

>> Dirty sites. Dirty blocks. And then when

they shut down the porn, I I got into an

online battle with What's the guy with

the bad scissors haircut? Forget his

name. There were two or three. Union

Square Ventures. Anyways, Yeah. they

they told Tumblr they were no longer

going to fund this bag of [ __ ] that was

making no money, but he convinced

Marissa Mayer to buy it for 1.1 billion

dollars. I know. Anyways,

>> [laughter]

>> so A walk down memory lane.

>> This has been fun. I've really enjoyed

this. Okay. And then I joined And then

my my incubator collapsed within like 6

months founding it after the dot com

implosion and I joined the faculty at

NYU where my first year salary was

$12,000. Nice. Good times. Back to exit.

Anyways,

back to Anthropic. What are we talking

I've said this I wish I have never bet

on a predictions market. I said this a

week ago. Cal She had Musk winning at 51

or 52%?

Now it's all of a sudden fallen to 38.

Winning at what? Winning Winning the

case.

Oh, the case. The Musk wins the case.

Yeah. Yeah, he's got to make some moves.

>> Going from There is no moves. He does

not have a legal leg to stand on.

You can go from a nonprofit to a

for-profit. You're allowed to do that.

This is regrets and a Messiah complex

cause playing a legal argument.

Judges and courts aren't concerned or

aren't moved by anger and indignance and

by and sellers regret. They're moved by

evidence and argument and there's none

here. So, I will say this trial, I was

thinking I would you know you're

watching the texts go back and forth and

Mira Murati doesn't like Sam really even

though she pretended she did and the

girlfriend who was on the board, I'm

blanking on her name. I don't really

care cuz Shivon Zilis. Isn't that his

girlfriend? Well, it's his partner and

then they had four children and she

didn't manage to tell the Open AI people

that she had two children with him and

obviously she was

>> conflict, Kara. Uh [laughter] and she's

like a spy in there like right?

>> It's not a conflict.

Like you might give that piece of

information if you're in a beef with

someone.

>> a fiduciary for all shareholders making

decisions around someone's compensation

and you're having their children, that's

just like you should probably just

forgot to mention it.

>> Anyway, so the whole thing and they're

like going back and forth in this trial

and I think this is a soap opera but the

most boring people most awful boring

people in it. I'm like I could give a

[ __ ] that whether Mira Murati likes Sam

Altman or not. I don't care. I don't

care. Like oh, he was manipulative. I

don't care. Like what does that have to

do with anything? Like I you know

honestly I I force you know you hear

that of course about Sam being

manipulative and telling one person one

thing and another and as I'm reading it

in the trial, I'm like so, but does this

is this illegal? Is he's just a jerk or

you didn't like him or he was deceptive?

Did he do anything illegal cuz otherwise

your internal corporate high jinks, I

don't you know care. I do think she

should have told people she had his

babies in my opinion. But the whole

thing is like a bad soap opera that you

want to like turn off. Like and it's

just bad for AI. It's bad for the

companies and therefore he's going to do

another deal like this. That's where we

That's why we're where we are. He's

trying to glom himself onto a successful

Ron Wayne

was one of the founders of Apple. Mhm.

He owned 10% of it. He sold his 10% for

$2,300

Yeah.

>> back to who I think Jobs and Wozniak.

That is now worth $400 billion. Yeah,

and he feels bad.

>> And guess what? Mhm. It sucks to be a

grown-up. He signed the legal documents.

Private property key to private property

is when like Elon Musk and my favorite

defense is oh, he didn't read the fine

print. He's the wealthiest man in the

world with the most sophisticated legal

team in history, but oh, he didn't read

the fine I would like to I I would just

love to see someone show up who sold the

guy who sold Tesla to Musk or the rights

to it I forget forget his name, show up

and say, "Oh, I didn't realize it was

going to be worth this much and I didn't

read the fine print." Just to see how

that goes over in court.

>> Yeah, instead he's like baby daddy. I'm

like, "Come on. Like stop it, you

people."

>> they're trying to make the an emotional

argument that he's trying to that I

wanted it to be a nonprofit and what did

I do? Go on

to found a for-profit AI company that

arguably has less guardrails than any

other AI company.

A a jury of actual people I I think this

is a great buy at 38%. I'll take the

other side of this. I don't

There Nobody likes these people. I have

to say Brockman came out of all these

sort of loathsome people. I'm waiting

for the Sam Altman testimony, but

of all the people so far Greg Brockman

comes off the best and I'm not a

particular fan of his either. Like the

one that keeps notes of everything. So

some of the highlights of the testimony

let's see emails from Zillow showing

Musk suggested OpenAI become part of

Tesla, potentially as a B corp

subsidiary. Musk tried to recruit Sam

Altman to join

a uh the world-class AI lab within

Tesla, even offering him a board seat.

They didn't had no interest, Sam Altman

and Greg Brockman. Two days before the

trial started, Musk texted Brockman

asking if he was interested in settling

the case. Musk supposedly wanted full

control of OpenAI in part to help him

raise $80 billion to colonize Mars and

was using OpenAI employees to do secret

work for Tesla. OpenAI president said

the Musk lack of understanding, this is

Brockman, of AI was a concern for the

company. I That was factual. I really

When I heard that, I'm like, I I get it.

And OpenAI's former CTO, Mira Murati,

who's a very nice person, she testified

saying she couldn't trust Sam Altman's

words and saying he created chaos. Mira,

I like you, but I don't care. Like then

leave. If Leave. Leave. None of this

matters. Nothing matters. But none of

it, right?

>> not who's the better person. It's not

who would be a better shepherd of AI.

It's contract law. I know.

>> When you sell an asset, it doesn't It

doesn't matter who the bigger [ __ ]

is, the seller or the buyer. I know.

>> He sold He gave up his ownership and

governance rights.

>> gave up his ownership.

>> And And the whole And media's trying to

turn this into who would be better at

running it. It doesn't [ __ ] matter.

Don't follow along with what these

people are saying. You You You You You

You You You You You You You You You You

>> Right.

>> it doesn't matter who's the better

person or steward of the home you sold.

It is instructive to look how sloppy it

is. And so you That's I keep saying to

people, they're like, "Oh, they're

masters of the universe." I'm like,

"They're kind of sloppy." Like Google,

like everybody in the beginning of

Google, they were all like [ __ ] each

other. Like it was like and it was a big

mess and it was chaos and they all hated

each other, they liked each other. I

could care less, right? That's the thing

until professional management got in.

Microsoft early on was like this, like

kind of a mess. But who cares? But the

fact that it's coming out in court is

is just makes you realize how dumb and

dumb dumb dumb this trial is, like how

dumb it is.

It's about money. It's all it is.

>> This is This is I sold something that

ended up being worth a hundred fifty

billion dollars.

>> right. You're That's exactly it.

>> I'm the Messiah who's going to put us on

Mars, who should control autonomous in

the US, should control space. And oh by

the way, the

the one part of the technological

revolution that I don't control and I

can't seem to catch up in

is is AI. And so six years after I've

decided, oh, I I need I should own it. I

need it back, or I need money back, or I

need to get in the way of their progress

so XAI can I mean, pretty soon it's

going to be

I don't know. I had a conversation with

Dario Amodei. I should own

Yeah. You know, he he I should own

Anthropic. It's ridiculous, these

people. Eighty bill eighty billion

dollars to colonize Mars? Guess what,

Elon? You have it. Spend it and have a

good time Have at it. Good luck. Bye.

Take your children. Go. We're We're

thrilled for you. We're We're excited.

We'll write a a a poem for you, like

when on your way out. It's the

so stupid. Mike Tyson at the peak of his

career

um

fought Marvis Frazier and knocked him

out in the first thirty seconds.

I think legally, Elon Musk is Marvis

Frazier.

I just think the guy

He didn't know to [ __ ] It's a boxing

analogy. I don't like boxing cuz I don't

like to see young men beating each other

up like that.

>> I. But if you want to talk, oh my gosh,

whenever the the the reels come on of

Mike Tyson's ten greatest knockouts,

Jesus Christ. I met him at a restaurant.

Did you?

>> Yeah, he came up to me. He was smoking.

>> crossways, I hope. Oh my I was so scared

of the guy. I just thought, be nice to

him. Yeah. That guy, one of the most

dominant athletes of all time. Anyways,

this is this is this should, and I

believe will be a first round [ __ ]

knockout and all this drama and all the

media say who would be better at open

what happened who's [ __ ] who's

[ __ ]

>> [clears throat]

>> who's [ __ ] who it's like when Iran

and Iraq were at war I used to say I

hope the bullets win.

I don't

I we don't care. I went on CNN and they

asked me

who would be a better steward and I'm

like it doesn't matter. It doesn't

matter. This shouldn't be the answer is

none. The answer is none

and it doesn't matter. Private capital

and private property means it sucks to

be a grown-up and if you sell your house

it ends up being next to [ __ ] Mark

Zuckerberg and could be worth eight or

ten million right now. Okay, it's done.

You sold it boss.

>> make one final observation about these

people. These are the richest people on

earth and they're so manifestly unhappy.

They just can't shut the [ __ ] up. They

can't stop fighting. They have so much

money. None of them are qualified to run

be in charge of AGI none of them.

They're this is what this is showing how

a tiny petty angry unhappy people they

all are every single one of them and

you're like y'all none of you deserve

what you've got here. So none of you has

the dignity or character to to look good

and meanwhile over to the left Dario

Amodei is like sucking up all the

attributes of goodness. I don't even

trust him and I like him. Like it

doesn't even matter at these people.

Anyway

>> is we shouldn't have to trust these

people. We should be able to elect

representatives we can trust to do the

right thing and regulate these

companies. And then we can fire them

easily. Anyway, let's go on a quick

break. When we come back we'll talk

about managing a stock portfolio via

chat GPT. You'll like this one Scott.

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Scott, we're back with just one more

quick story over the past few months.

I'd love to know what you think of this.

A Wall Street Journal reporter asked

ChatGPT for investment advice to see if

AI could really realistically manage a

stock portfolio. It's It's actually

makes sense. There's

speaking of

of

Anthropic, they just did an interesting

deal where it would make decks and pitch

decks and things like that. It working

It's called It's a company I can't

remember the name but it's interesting

though.

ChatGPT

There's a lot of interesting smaller AI

companies being made that actually sound

useful. So this is what the reporter

did. ChatGPT generally identified market

risk but also made simple math mistakes,

suggested questionable market timing

strategies, and sometimes veered into

overly complex ideas like options

trading. The chatbot often told the user

what they seem to want to hear

highlighting a bigger concern that AI

could sound confident and persuasive

even when its advice may be flawed or

risky. Sounds like a lot of brokers I

know. About 30% of everyday investors

report using AI for their portfolios.

So, apparently not so good yet. Not and

in lots of really problematic ways that

you I mean with a person you're looking

at, you sort of have a sense when

they're sort of trying to sell you

something you don't want. Um so, it's

curious it's just like with law or

medical,

it's not there. It's not there and this

personalized investment advice is just

the latest wrinkle. I don't mind them

making, you know, decks, pitch decks and

things like that, but um huge risk for

lawsuits, I would assume. Just the same

with legal or medical or anything else.

Any thoughts?

Well, I I think it was tempting to

believe in the '90s you could use

Lotus, you know, 1-2-3 to

beat the market by doing all sorts of

calculations

>> analysis and calculations and you might

have had an edge for a minute,

but what I would argue is that

the the the individual thinking they can

use

uh Claude and I'm guilty this. I've been

asked and Claude like crazy using

co-work to come up with different

options and hedging strategies and to

identify stocks. I'm guilty of it. I I

love the markets. I like to gamble. It's

my means of gambling.

>> That's why I'm asking you this. And I

find it interesting what it says,

but here's the bottom line or what I

think. Ken Griffin

will hire 2,000 PhDs

and he will weaponize them with AI and

they will outperform the market.

But you believing with your $20 a month

Claude co-work weapon can compete

against these folks?

You are showing up with a very elegant

squirt gun and they have a [ __ ]

howitzer. So, this is what you do. You

invest in low-cost ETFs like Vanguard

and people who know and understand

technology can use the you know,

understand how to use AI.

But this will further

this will further diminish or create or

widen the delta between individual

investors and institutional

because institutional investors have the

capital.

The bottom line is every time you you

place a trade,

you got to keep in mind

on the other side of that trade

is likely someone smarter than you

that has broader technology. So, what

you want to do, in my view, unless you I

get a lot of

I get a lot of psychic income around

playing the market. So, 30% of my net

worth Yeah, you like doing that. I enjoy

it.

You know, it it's fun for me.

Occasionally, I have access to a deal

that other people don't have access to,

so fine.

But, the retail investor would be better

off finding low-cost ETFs where the

management team there

is really technically competent. Yeah.

That's what I do.

>> That's what I do. I just put it in

there.

>> Exactly the right way to do it. I'm not

interested in it. I know I could do

slightly better if I I'm I'm a little

smarter than most people. And I'll have

a little more insight.

>> You're smarter in an area that has

nothing to do that that's done in

Google. Be careful thinking that. No,

what I mean is I have some thoughts on

on some things that I probably I'm

talking about the average bear. But, I'm

I don't think I'm smarter than the

>> technology. That's right. So, I could be

like, I wouldn't bet on this company. I

would bet on this company probably

earlier than other people, but I still

wouldn't win. Still. The problem is

people have emotions in the market and

you can't trust your emotions in the

market. So, when a stock gets cut in

half, your emotion is to sell it because

you can't take any more pain, but that's

probably when you should be buying more.

And so

and then you

and then you have you literally have Ken

Griffin out there looking at all the

trades and seeing where emotion is

spiking or irrationally plummeting and

then moving in

in a millionth of a second and then

moving out and and absorbing millions of

different data points.

So,

you do not you do not want to play in

traffic here and believe that just

because

you're going to get up to the mound

where a guy is pitching 105 miles an

hour because you got a a new aluminum

bat that you think is going to that

you're going to be able to hit a home

run? No, you're going to get beamed in

the face.

So,

I do think AI is going to be a huge

unlock. And also, it will compress

margins because what will happen is

financial advisors, unless they're

really good and can go upstream into tax

planning,

a mediocre financial planner at your

local bank, no, you could probably do

almost as well using AI or better and

save 1% a year. I remember when I my mom

passed away and I was looking at her

estate,

this guy was charging her one or one and

a half percent of her assets every year

to put her in eight S&P stocks. I'm

like, okay, that's just not that hard.

Why are we paying you one and a half

percent? Right, yeah. And it was one and

a half percent. So, what I would say is

I think, by the way, I think people

should use AI to try and pick stocks. I

just don't think they should buy them. I

think it's fascinating to see the logic,

to see what it comes back with, to start

asking it more questions. I've been

trying to figure out option strategies

and on a strangle strategy. I just I'm

learning a lot.

>> Although sometimes you don't know if

it's accurate, right? That's the issue.

Some of it they the sycophanticness is

still a problem because it's not going

to challenge it's not if you it's I

think someone was I think the article

says it's no more than having a smart

assistant, right? Like, they're no

smarter than anything else and and

there's an assistant part which doesn't

want to what displease you and then it's

just a smart person, but you're never

going to have an edge with AI the

>> can you can you can normalize for that.

There's a

a a co-work feature feature in Anthropic

where you ask this council of people,

one's a cynic, one's an optimist, one is

one is grounded in historical context,

the other is like an analytical and an

emotional person, and all of these

quote-unquote agents look at your

question and then they distill their

answers up to a quote-unquote chairman

who distills it and gives you an answer

back. You can also

I I I lead a lot of prompts with give me

the brutal truth because I don't like,

you know, I don't like it I hate it when

it says to me, "Great question." The

other thing you should do is is and I

can't do this because I unsubscribed

from ChatGPT, you can beta test the same

do the exact same prompt somewhere else.

>> Yeah, I did that before I quit and I was

on other things like show me a a book

title get show me a book cover.

I got to say Claude was hands down the

best. It just was. It just was so

clearly better. You know, when you taste

test things you're like, "Oh, that

tastes like shit." And that's good,

right? Or the coffee or something like

that. But yeah, you're right. But

anyway, it's very interesting. I mean,

you should all try it out to see what

happens and do one of those tests. But

this was a great article in the journal

and I think it showed that it just

doesn't it's not as

ready for prime time as they say.

And about 30% a third of retail

investors are already using AI for their

portfolios. And so

Everyone's looking for a shortcut,

Scott.

>> But this

one of the greatest grips I believe,

legal grips in corporate history, was

the financial advisor.

Or or institutional investors. And by

the way,

the majority of the grift has happened

amongst the richest.

Rich people like

>> have the hand holders, yeah. Rich people

like to believe that they deserve

something better. So, they want to get

into these really high-profile

well-marketed hedge funds who they

believe, "Oh, I have access to Paulson

or I have access to this, you know, D.E.

Shaw whatever." Okay, fine. Guess what?

If you added up all alternative

investments and hedge fund returns for

the last 50 years,

they have underperformed the S&P by the

amount of their fees.

It's a and some outperform. Berkshire

Hathaway has outperformed. My buddy at

Anchorage Capital has outperformed. You

know, I have another buddy at Mudrick

Capital who's outperformed. But

generally speaking,

over the long medium and long term, they

all underperform the market by their

fees.

And

every piece of data analysis if you go

to the finance department at a

world-class university

and ask them where they invest, they're

like, "Vanguard."

Mhm. Me, too.

>> And they don't pick stocks. They don't

pick stocks.

>> I put I don't know Someone's like, "How

are your stocks doing?" I'm like, "I've

no idea." And I I'm not going to look

until I need and I don't really need the

money, so I just I'm like, "I just put

it there and then it goes away." It's

like it's like a bank at Gringotts. I

don't care. Like I I

I The more I think about it, the more

upset I get, right? Like, what am I

missing? What did I get wrong? Did I buy

gold? Should I do this? And then I'm

like, "Why am I that [ __ ] person?"

It's a great point because

in addition to the capital

you're investing, you want to talk about

the emotion you're investing.

And that is I do get psychic income, but

>> You like it.

>> I started buying stocks when I was 13. I

worked at Morgan Stanley. I I find it

fascinating. I really do enjoy markets,

and it's served me well. Having said

that, it also takes a real emotional

toll staring at your [ __ ] phone. And

then when you buy a stock and you're

convinced you're a genius and it gets

cut by 40% in 2 weeks after you buy it,

you're really going to beat yourself up.

>> The only thing I wish you wouldn't do is

put so much of your your your medical

information to these people cuz they

don't they don't they're not bound by

HIPAA. Same thing with legal. I I'm

like, "Please don't." I mean, unless you

find one of these ones that is bound by

the same laws everybody else's. I just

worry about that over time. What's that?

Wait, who's taking my

>> just saying when you Whenever you put a

lot of your You always like, "Oh, I

loaded up You always Sometimes you don't

even realize you're saying this to me. I

put away all my medical thing into

this." And I was like, "Really?"

Not sure I trust these people to have

all Scott's medical information.

>> my information.

>> You are. It makes me worry. I'll be

honest with you. I think, "Oh, dear. No,

don't do that." Cuz you think at some

point they're going to get all of it and

weaponize it against us.

>> They're They're not I I They could

because they're not bound by HIPAA,

they're not bound by legal things.

Anyway.

>> if I should just send out

Mhm. a preemptive [clears throat]

apology to Angie Dickinson and Emily

Ratajkowski right now. Why? Well, just

all the things I've asked them about.

Oh, no. Okay, we're moving on. We got to

go. All right. One more quick break.

We'll be back for predictions. Okay,

Scott, let's hear a prediction. Do you

have a prediction for us? There was a

really interesting story this week that

I think

kind of indicates or pretends pretends

what it might be in store for us around

um potential acquisitions. And I made a

similar prediction a few years ago, but

it didn't pan out. And that is a

32-year-old TikToker

just crowdfunded 132 million in

non-binding pledges to buy a bankrupt uh

Spirit Airlines. Did you see this? No, I

didn't see it. He said he said, "Look,

Spirit helps keep airline prices down.

Let's do what we did with the Green Bay

Packers and let's mutualize it."

And he he's very talented.

And Spirit said it was going to shut

down

at 2:00 a.m. on Saturday, and this guy,

Hunter Peterson,

had a TikTok up the same day, a website

within a day, and 6 million views within

days, and more than a hun- Get this,

Cara, more than 133,000 people have

pledged on average about a thousand

bucks each, totaling uh 132 million

dollars.

And essentially what he's saying is

that, "Okay, 20% of American adults

paying the average Spirit fare of 30 to

40 dollars equals enough to buy an

airline."

And they say it's un- Okay, let's It's

unlikely to close,

but the idea with in an era of AI and

compliance AI where you could spin up

the legal documents and have people sign

them,

and with PayPal, I think you're going to

see

in the next 12 to 36 months, someone

pull this off.

Where they say,

"Hey, who wants to buy

Estee Lauder? Or who wants to buy

you know, they they'll start with a

small stock. It wouldn't be Estee Lauder

cuz that's too big a company, but it'll

start with a small company that goes out

of business. They'll say, "Okay, Dick's

Sporting It." Whatever it is. And

someone talented who's very charismatic

who will weaponize social media and AI

to collect legal pledges for funds

and will buy something. I think

crowdfunding

I think crowdfunding is going to

um

is going to is going to happen. And

and also retail participation in US

equities has risen by nearly 20% of

average daily trading volume, which by

the way is usually a sell signal.

Um up from low single digits before

COVID and

>> So, it's like when everybody got in one

of those accounts. That's right.

>> trading accounts. And rather than

fading, retail flows hit fresh records

in 2025.

>> cuz the stock market's up every day.

>> thinks they're genius now. Everyone's

like, "Oh, I'm I'm

>> Okay, I like that. Why don't you do it?

What would we buy something?

>> Well, that's what I used to do for a

living between 2000 and 2008.

>> kinds of stunts could we buy? What would

we buy? All kinds of stunts.

Like Chipotle or something? Chipotle is

expensive. All right. Chipotle is

expensive. I don't want to buy something

like

>> they sent me I used to tell I was in the

original Isn't that the plot of the

>> me a card. This is the most impressive

my sons have ever been with me. I got a

card for free lifetime Chipotle and I

sold it or I didn't sell it. I lost it.

But I love Chipotle.

>> want one again. That's what this was

about. Little stunt.

>> paid. They sent me a card. No, if they

do it again, I want I want serious

cabbage. No, yeah.

>> Right. Yeah. All right. So, All right.

Yeah. I like that prediction. By the

way, I predict the government is going

to lose that idiotic case against the

New York Times about the hiring, the

DEI, and then attacking the woman who

did redistricting.

These people make Ceaușescu look kind.

It's ridiculous. They're going after all

their enemies with the FBI and they're

attacking Here's what I predict. It's

going to end in tears for those people.

They're They attacked the New York Times

for DEI

and a lawsuit. Then they're going to use

the Justice Department to try to get

Carroll's money that Trump owes her, the

83 million, which is insane. And then

they attacked the woman in the

82-year-old woman. They They They raided

her office to try to find corruption.

Who did the Who was so this this badass

lady in Virginia who did all the

redistricting that kicked their ass. And

then they are investigating the reporter

for The Atlantic who

you know, no [ __ ] Sherlock, did the

story about Kash Patel being a drunk. Um

and of course she immediately answered

it by showing off a bottle she bought on

auction where Kash Patel gives out

whiskey to people with his name on it,

like some wood for with reserve whiskey.

So

No one's having any of this nonsense

that they're doing. It's just so like

clottish and thuggish. So none of it's

going to work. That's my prediction.

>> I I can't help it. I agree with you.

Private companies get to do what they

want whether DEI

That's none of the government's business

in my view unless it's

they're claiming a reverse racism.

I I think that that that that I will say

>> Let the guy sue her. Sue The New York

Times. I don't care. Um

Look, a search warrant is not proof of

guilt, but it is a serious threshold.

And federal judges do not casually

approve raids on senior state

legislators.

>> Come on. So well

Why her? Why her? Because well, okay,

you could argue that the investigation

the fact it was even launched is

politicized, but a federal a sitting

federal

uh judge, they do not issue No, I don't

know. This is This is in my opinion.

We'll see what the evidence says. That's

correct. We'll see what the evidence

says.

>> because at at the same time a

high-profile corruption probe they often

look strongest at the raid stage and

weaker later once the evidence is

scrutinized publicly.

>> Letitia James, right?

>> be fair to the other side, a search

warrant is a you You has to pass a

serious threshold that a federal judge

does not casually approve on senior

state legislators.

>> that, but there's a reason they didn't

pick 20 other Republican ones. They This

is what they do all the time. They just

This is This is a It's a It's a

weaponization of the power and they

they complained about it happening to

them. Yep. And then they're doing it.

So, stop it. Just cut it out. Anyway, we

want to hear from you. Send us your

questions about business, tech, or

whatever is on your mind. Go to

nymag.com/pivot

to submit a question for the show or

call 855-51

pivot. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott

universe this week, Scott Prof G Markets

is going on tour this month. Tell us a

little bit about it. Tell us a tiny

thing. It's kicking off May 27th. It's

going to San Francisco, LA, Miami,

Chicago, and New York. You go to

profgmarketstour.com

for tickets. Tell us a tiny bit about

this and why people should go. Uh well,

thanks, Kara. It's It's similar to what

we did with Pivot. It's a live tour. We

have a bunch of great guests across

different cities.

What's interesting It's interesting what

sells out the quickest. New York and San

Francisco. We were worried that San

Francisco wouldn't like us cuz we're

constantly

shitposting tech people, but New York

and San Francisco are going to sell out

in the next 24 hours.

And um anyways, but yeah, it's just a

live tour with me and Ed Elson. We sold

out San Francisco first on Pivot.

>> Yeah. This So, this Toronto was it

Toronto and Oh, Toronto and Boston.

Wait, did Boston We sold out Boston

fast. We sold them all out fast. I'll be

in the LA was happened to be a huge

theater, so it took a little longer, but

>> Yeah, but it's It's

and it'll be after the show, it'll be a

bunch of people coming up to me and

asking me if Ed Elson is single because

their daughter is looking for a nice

husband. Um

But yeah, so it's it's my um Prof G

Markets live tour. Go to

profgmarketstour.

profgmarketstour.com.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's starting at the end of

May and first week of June.

Great. That's fantastic. And also, we're

going to be doing pivot in the fall with

another pivot tour in the fall. Which is

you're going to be on the road Scott

Galloway. We're doing another tour?

Yes, you know that. What do you Do you

know that? We are.

>> know that, but I'm excited about it.

>> [laughter]

>> You did know. We literally had a call

about it. What did happen? What

happened? We had a call about another

tour. We literally discussed it. We're

having a tour in the fall. You were on

the call. You weren't listening. But you

were there. I know. You were. I don't

remember. Where am I?

>> having one. Anyway. That's the show.

Thanks for listening to Pivot and be

sure to like and subscribe to our

YouTube channel. We'll be back next

week.