Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Put your stuff on the floor.

>> It doesn't matter. You can keep it on

the table.

>> It's fun.

There's water there, too. Uh, in this

metal cup. And then there's coffee.

>> Oh, thanks so much. Coffee here. He's

ready to

>> I have some notes that I'll probably

never look at. But

>> you got notes?

>> Me?

>> What What's on the notes?

>> Uh, just stuff like what I went through

with CCR and all that, but

tell me something. Did you Did you read

up on me or anything or

>> I'm a huge fan. I don't have to read up

on you. Okay. I read up on you a little

bit just to catch up about how you got

out of the the Well, you did do military

service, but you got out by smoking a

lot of weed and not eating. I read that.

Is that true?

>> No.

>> Is that true? They lied.

>> There was a story about you smoking a

lot of weed and uh getting emaciated so

you can get out of the army.

>> Well, it's not quite in that sequence,

but

those things did happen.

Yeah, I had

I had determined to lose a lot of

weight, right? So, I was kind of really

skinny about 1967

68. Uh I mean likeund I think it was 129

pounds.

>> Whoa.

>> Yeah. Um, and then I was going to go uh

to the I think it was the procedio and I

had to meet with the army doctor, right?

And my friends gave me a couple of

joints and I stuck them in. You know, I

used to smoke and it was cigarettes. I

stuck it in the cigarette and going

across the Bay Bridge, I smoked them.

That's so I had even thought about So,

yeah, man. He he he went on a starvation

diet, a protest diet, and then smoked a

lot of weed

that way. But yeah. Okay. But it's it's

essentially some truth.

>> Some truth to it.

>> Uh you had a legendary career, my

friend. Legendary.

>> Thank you. Still working on it.

>> It's incredible, man. You You are like

one of the main voices of rock and roll

in America. If you really think about

it, your songs, I mean, there you have

so many gigantic hits, you know, when uh

the UFC uh has a lot of walkout songs,

you know, when fighters come out and

walk out and a lot of guys walk out to

your music. I don't even know if you're

aware of it, but Fortunate Sun is a big

one.

>> Yeah.

>> Bad Moon Rising, that's another big one

people walk out to.

>> Great. Wow.

>> It's pretty awesome.

>> Wow. Yeah. I'm I'm not that aware of

that. UFC stuff, but it, you know,

everybody whatever floats your boat.

>> Well, people just love your music. You

So, you went through many generations.

Like, you got your first record

contract. How old were you?

>> Um,

I know I signed one when I was around

19. Of course, it would have been

uninforcable.

>> It's not legal at the time, right? You

had to be 21 the deal.

>> I I believe so.

>> Yeah. There's Well, you're also one of

the first rock and roll artists that

wrote songs uh that became very popular

about how you're getting screwed over by

the record business.

>> You know what I mean? Well, so Leonard

Skitter did it working for MCA. They did

that song, but you had Vans Can's Dance.

>> It was actually Zance Can't Dance,

>> but you had to change it, right?

>> Yeah. The name of the person was Zance.

Uh it's it sold about a half a million

copies as Zance, but the record company

Warner Brothers in their way of settling

somewhat

um had me change it to Vance.

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz the guy's name was Zance that it was

screwing up.

>> Um

that's right in the middle of that whole

thing was a mess. I got sued for

sounding like myself.

>> What?

>> Yeah.

>> How'd that happen?

>> I'll tell you. So, and I didn't find

this out. And there was eventually a

trial. So, it's not

Many people think that that's funny. He

got sued for sounding like you're so w

that's funny. Well, no. you're getting a

legal lawsuit that's probably going to

take away a lot of your

uh money and you're going to go through

three four years of anguish. Well,

anyway, um

ended up in a trial. He was suing me for

at the time was an enormous amount of

money, $144 million for his uh whatever

metal anguish or something. Um I

the the logistics, I guess you'd call

it. I had made a new song called The Old

Man Down the Road. It was on my album.

It was my comeback on Center Field and I

had finally gotten away from Fantasy

Records, which is where Credence was and

Solands who owned it. So, you know, when

you finally escape and get success over

somewhere else, the former people tend

to be jealous, I guess. And uh so he was

suing me. What had happened though, I

found out in the trial, the bass player

from Credence

uh was another one of those people, I

guess, that couldn't stand that I'd now

had success in a later life. um he went

down to fantasy and saw Mr. Saul's aunts

and said, "John is ripping off Credence.

You should sue him." The irony in in all

of that is that I had taught Stu every

single note that he ever played in

Credence. It was not his own cre. As we

talk, you'll you'll see. Um I was the

guy inventing the arrangements. And so

to take possession of Credence was

pretty ironic and pretty over the top.

Anyway, he talks Saul into suing me and

that Saul had unlimited funds and so it,

you know, went to a trial. I pre

prevailed at trial and

got that over with.

>> But they torture you during the process

because it takes years and it cost an

enormous amount of money to fight

yourself.

>> Yeah. all that stuff.

>> That is so crazy that they can sue you

for sounding like you.

>> Well, it's a blessing to the world, I

think, that I prevail. I mean, you know

what we're really talking about is when

you come into the consciousness of the

world, I guess, and you have a certain

style if you're lucky. And so, you start

creating whatever your art is. You're an

actor or you're a painter or in my case

a musician. and people start liking the

style. Well, how unfair would it be that

at some point somebody takes ownership

of your and style and now says you have

to go back and invent some other style,

be some other person. You know, it's

just that would be really difficult.

Imagine Dylan or Springsteen or all the

other people that have their own style

having to, you know, reinvent and change

to something else. Well, it's just

insane to even ask an artist to do that.

It's insane because look, so many

artists sound like art other artists

anyway, and no one has a problem with

that as long as they're not ripping off

the notes and the lyrics. There's a lot

of people that sound like people, but

the idea that you could get sued for

sounding like you with new music and new

lyrics is that's one of the most insane

things I've ever heard of. I can't

believe that didn't get thrown out

immediately.

>> Immediately, right? Um, well, that shows

the the I guess the ego and the

possessiveness that people want to have.

Um,

you know, I had written a new song and

he didn't want me to. He wanted to own

the new stuff. He wanted to own me

basically. That was the idea. Well, you

can never do anything unless you do it

for me, you know. Um, so I was

but not just for myself, for everyone,

for all artists. It was kind of a major

ruling and thank God it went that way.

>> Well, thank God it also was public like

with that song and the lawsuit around

the song have you having to change the

name of the song cuz back then at least

at the time like this was probably what

the 80s.

>> Yep.

>> Most people had no idea how evil the

music business can be unless they were

told they had no idea what they they

bought the albums. They loved the

musicians and they just liked the music.

They didn't know what was going on

behind the scenes. They didn't know how

these people own your catalog. They own

the music. They own the publishing. They

try to just get as much money out of you

as humanly possible. Own your name, own

your likeness. You know, most uh fans

had no idea.

>> And that's probably the way it really

should be. When I was young, I just

cared about Elvis and his guitar player.

You know, I didn't want to know all I

didn't even know there was stuff behind

it to know.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh my god.

>> Right. I picked a good one there, didn't

I? Colonel was evil. That's just too

bad.

>> Another similar situation. Like there's

all a lot of these great artists get

like Prince. He got wrapped up to the

point where he had to change his name to

a symbol because he didn't own his name

anymore. Prince.

>> Yeah. I remember going, "Well, if he

doesn't want to use it, you I'll take

it." Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's just the the business itself.

I mean, you have these creative artists

that make this music that everybody

loves and then you have these hyenas

that work behind the scenes that are the

ones that are collecting the majority of

the money from it and they're not making

any music. And to the average fan like

myself, like that's abortant. That's

disgusting. Like you you see that it

just it just drives you nuts. Well, also

um you know the the create creative

people are special and I mean you know

look around there's way more of other

types of people than there are creative

people and to douse that you know to or

own that which is what was going to

happen is just a an ownorous thing. Um

I'm

I used to be a lot more angry about all

this stuff. I'm a lot older. I can't say

wiser. It's more like um I came out on

the good side of it. I try not to worry

about it too much. But

>> it's great that you came out on the good

side of it, but it's also great for

people to know and it's really great for

young artists to be aware as they're

coming up, especially as they're

beginning their journey that this could

happen to them.

>> Yeah. And there's all kinds of, you

know, u bad people around just waiting

for you to slip up and sign something

that will give your rights away, that

sort of thing. Um,

I get such a joy out of music, you know?

I mean, I just I it started that way

when I was a little kid. I mean, didn't

even know what I was doing. I was or

what that was. I was hearing this sound

and you know and I liked it and I just

kind of went with it. I didn't try to

analyze it too much. And of course later

with all the things you know the

different roads you you go through

trying to get to someplace. Um

happily I still get that same joy. I

mean, I I just I'm just so glad. You

know, I a lot of this, of course, is

from the care of my wife, Julie. Uh if I

hadn't met her, I probably would be

dead. Simple as that.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

Why do you think you'd be dead?

>> Um I didn't see any way out, you know.

Um

I was really abusing myself, alcohol

mostly. I really felt

bad inside. I mean, it it's when you get

like that, uh, Joe, uh, you're not

really operating on the same plane in

the world that all the other people that

you see are, you know, you walk into a

market or something and look around and

probably most of the people are kind of

normal, you know, whatever we call that.

But when you're when you're really

hurting inside for whatever reason, I

mean, in my case, something really

unjust had been done to me. Um, but you

know, however you get there and then you

start abusing yourself with uh drugs,

alcohol, whatever. Um, you just kind of

it's becomes a habit. You just stay

there, right? And so you're not really

enjoying the sunshine and the love

that's around you and all the rest of

it. You become kind of a um pathetic

person. Sad certainly. So that you know

that was the deal that when Julie met me

I was that guy. Um there was sort of a

certainly an anger I mean but a a

bitterness too. almost like a

self-fulfilling

um

prophecy where you look for something to

go wrong and then it goes wrong and you

go, "See, I told you." You know, I mean,

it's a terrible mental place to be and I

was there.

>> Do you think this was a loop that you

got in because of the lawsuits?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> It did that it really just got you that

hard. Well, there was there was more

than one lawsuit, but the betrayal by uh

the people in my band, you know, uh I

just told you about a very evil man,

right?

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm the only guy from Credence who's

ever actually mentioned that he's an

evil person to the extent that

quite publicly my brother Tom right

during the same time was saying that

Saul was his best friend.

>> Oh Jesus. It was just really hard to uh

deal with. The other two guys in the

bands were in the band were kind of just

more cowardly about it. They just never

spoke up. Just kind of give me the

money. And you know,

>> how the [ __ ] was your brother saying

that guy was your best friend while he

was suing you?

>> Um he wanted he was signed ressigned

after the break of breakup of Credence.

he kind of shopped around and didn't

have uh much success finding a label and

so he went right about the time that

this trial was going to happen.

Uh he resigned with Fantasy. I'm talking

about the first trial.

>> Mhm.

>> Which was the first trial?

>> The first trial was about uh basically

the band had lost its life savings. all

of us in credence. Um, the record

company

had gotten us into this offshore tax

plan. And I'm saying this with a smile

because nowadays it just sounds so, you

know, some guy comes walking up to you

and got a trench coat on on a corner in

New York City. Hey buddy, you want, you

know, probably going to avoid that guy.

But the record company was in this tax

thing and for all we knew we were going

to be paying 90% income tax, right? I

mean, the tax

laws are pretty pretty stringent and

pretty high. Um, and so they offered us

or basically

kind of ushered us into this plan, a t

offshore tax plan, and it would allow us

to pay a lot less taxes, probably

somewhere between 10 and 20%, something

like that. Uh, so it was a huge

financial savings for us.

I can tell you that the name of this

particular thing was a bank in the

Bahamas called Castle Bank.

And we had it checked out. I mean, the

the people on our side in the van had it

checked out by our people. Our own

accountant um

uh the bass players father was a an

entertainment lawyer and had a big firm.

They among other people represented the

Oakland Raiders. So we thought they were

pretty solid and they checked it all out

and said that it was okay. It was legit.

So we did it. But time went on and it uh

seemed to be not legit to the point that

somewhere in the 70s

the bank disappeared and all our money

in it disappeared. So we sued

Oh Jesus.

>> Yep.

>> So here it is. The bank was being used

by the CIA to funnel money for covert

military operations,

>> including those at Andros Island, a

staging area for anti-Castro activities.

So you they were stealing your money.

>> How?

>> I just found that. I don't know. I just

typed it in and went to the Wikipedia

and I was like, whoa, that's

interesting.

>> So insane.

>> See, I didn't know any of that.

>> You didn't know until now? Oh, I knew

that now or I suspect.

>> Yeah.

>> Did you know that up until now or did

you just find it out just now?

>> Um, you could tell me a lot of things

right now and I'd say, "Oh, yeah. I just

assumed all that stuff was kind of

happening, but I didn't know it at the

time in the early '7s when we or late60s

when we got into this thing. It was

actually

>> Do you know how anti-American that is?

the CIA stole from Credence Clearwater

Revival.

>> How [ __ ] crazy that is. That is so

wild.

>> No, I didn't know that part. The um the

funny thing the the funny thing is um I

had decided to get out of that plan,

right? and I'd gone down to see my own

people, my accountant, my attorney uh in

Oakland and told him, I just want out of

this thing. I don't like the idea that

you got to call, you know, whenever I

want some money, like an allowance, you

got to call up some bank account

somewhere over there and it takes, you

know, some time, some few days before I

actually receive my money. and it was

starting to just smell. It was starting

to and this now we're talking

>> 197576.

Um

and so I actually had the meeting and I

said I want to be out of this plan. I

don't want to. Oh, I said one of the

things I said to the meeting of

professionals, look, take a shoe box,

put all the money I've ever earned into

the shoe box, and now hand me the shoe

boxes so I can see how much money have I

earned because I didn't know. It was

just going straight into this fund,

right, into this Castle Bank. But they

couldn't tell me. So, I leave. I get

down to the uh parking lot in the

basement of this tall building in

Oakland and I'm with my uh the guy that

runs my office and I say [ __ ] we're

going to have to have another meeting

because even though I told him I want to

get out of the plan, I didn't stand up

like on the table and get I'm ordering

you and you and you get me out of the

plan. I realized they could weasle

some more time until I actually pointed.

So the next week I showed up and did

that. I'm ordering you get me out. Okay.

Out of the plan, right? Um

pretty quickly after that

uh a week or two,

we hear that the bank has closed.

There's a telegram that apparently was

sent on Valentine's Day

and the bank president has died.

He died in a sauna.

>> Whoa.

>> I've seen that movie. You know where

Abbott and Costello, they're in the the

mob comes in and they're in those uh

heat things that are up here and the guy

sticks a broom in the in the door so you

can't get out. You know,

>> I mean, except that this was serious and

>> there will be no more withdrawals

>> until

until this thing is understood,

>> right? You don't a bank president dies,

you don't close the Bank of America,

right? You still can go get your money.

>> And so, pretty quick after that, it all

just disappeared in a puff of smoke. So,

>> they just stole the money.

>> Gone. Yep.

>> And it was the [ __ ] CIA. That is

crazy.

That is so crazy. How much money was

involved with all the different people

that lost their money? Like how much

money was this bank holding? Do you

know?

>> Oh, well, there were other names that I

never saw in those days. Uh, a lot of

sort of mobby kind of sounding names. Uh

>> um I will tell you after the thing

closed and I we got the telegram that

the p I started I literally started

checking under my cars

looking for wires and what you know

something funny. I did that for about

three months.

>> Whoa.

>> I finally just Well, I was scared.

>> Yeah. I would be

>> because I was the guy who said I want to

get out of this thing and suddenly it

goes kaboom and the president dies.

>> Right.

>> Right. And I just figured that I was

some kind of whistleblower to them or

something and you know I'm in their way.

Uh

>> Wow.

>> I guarantee you're the reason why it

happened.

>> I don't think No, I don't believe that's

true.

>> Well, no. I mean, you you probably

caused the whole thing to close down. I

mean, it's not a coincidence that it

closed down right after you asked for

your money back.

>> Yeah. I I don't know.

>> You're a big public name and a big

voice. You get out. you take your money.

After that point in time, I really never

wanted to

>> talk too loudly about stuff anymore. Oh

my goodness. Um, so there eventually was

our lawsuit. Um,

well, actually it was my lawsuit. I got

with a lawyer, a tall building I call

it, and proceeded to start

proceedings against this fantasy,

our own attorneys and experts, uh, the

people that designed this plan, all the

rest. Right. But I was the only one in

the band that did that. The the rest of

the guys kind of just

went along and weren't m making any

waves. But I, you know, I was pretty

adamant. Uh I'm telling you this because

at some point later

more than a year had passed maybe a

maybe a year and a half uh my PL my

lawsuit had been rolling along a while

and then the other guys asked to join my

lawsuit because the statute of

limitations had run out on them being

able to sue anyone because they they

literally tried to stay in the plan. I

was

I was I was willing to take the penalty,

whatever it was, for being the dumbass

that let himself get into some financial

thing like this, right? I felt like I

used to say I felt like Joe Lewis. I

thought I was going to need an act of

Congress to forgive the debt. Uh these

experts in the meeting that I talked

about who were trying to dissuade me

from making a noise and trying to get

out of the plan told me eventually John

if you receive all the money at once you

will pay more than 110%

in taxes

>> of what you have earned. In other words,

you going to go in the hole.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. For receiving it all at once,

right?

>> That sounds insane. That's why I felt

like Joe Lewis.

>> That's the most insane thing I've ever

heard.

>> Well, they were trying to in trying to

intimidate me for sure.

>> Yeah.

>> Um,

>> how much money were we talking about?

How much money did they steal from you?

>> When it finally was over, the headline

in the San Francisco Chronicle, I mean,

you're going to laugh at this.

>> Rock band

victorious wins 8.1 million.

That was our entire take for everybody

in the band. Each guy had a little bit

different amount, but you know those

numbers. I mean,

I don't know. Dion once made a joke at

the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame about

Bruce and

Dion says, "Well, I sold 40 million."

Meaning, you know, you you sue me. Well,

Bruce has that on him.

It was It was pretty funny. Yeah. I

mean, 8 million was that was it. That

was our take from all the sales of

Credence time.

>> So, was that the amount of money that

was in the bank that they stole from

you?

>> That was what we got returned to us.

>> So, you did get the money back.

>> Mhm.

>> Oh, okay. I figured they would just

vanish.

>> Um,

the money didn't come back from Saul's

ants or capital or Castle Bank or any of

those people. What had happened was

Fantasy was let out of the lawsuit by

the local judge in the Bay Area. I don't

know why because they're the ones that

got us into the plan, but anyway, they

were let out of the whole thing. So, who

was left was this guy named Bert Caner

in Chicago who designed the plan and our

own our own accountant and lawyers. And

so what most of them did was settle for

pennies on the dollar. You know, we said

that you owe us u a million dollars or

whatever. And they settled for like

$10,000

>> really,

>> right? Rather than go to trial. But our

own accountants

legal team said, "Ah, we got these guys.

They can never win this." So, I mean,

ironically,

they wanted to go to trial and put the

poor accountant, you know, who was an

old guy, uh, throw a whole trial and

Credence got we we retained the money we

had lost in that plan, the 8 million I

just mentioned, uh, from the

law firm, uh, the insurance firm. It was

his insurance company's lawyers that

were representing him and they had to

pay.

>> Nobody else had to pay.

>> Interesting.

>> And the CIA or whoever you're talking

about got away with it.

>> Of course they did.

>> Yeah.

>> They know how to do that. It's kind of

crazy, too, that it's only $8 million

when you think about how much money you

probably made the record companies.

>> Yep. Well, there was a hundred million

records plus. So,

>> Right. Do the math. How much was an

album back then?

>> Four bucks.

>> Yeah. So 400 million plus operating

expenses, costs, all that stuff. See,

you know, you guys got a small

percentage.

That's how it works though. That's why

the business is so dirty. That's what's

so, you know, the idea is that they help

you and they bring you up. But the

reality is they sell art and if they

don't have artists, they have nothing.

The artists are what fund their very

existence and they make the majority of

the money. It's It's pretty dark when

you really think about it.

>> Yeah. And Joe, I gotta tell you, um I

love making music and I don't do it for

the money.

>> I mean, I know that sounds a little

naive, but just the happiness in my

heart from doing this is

from the music, you know, from the joy.

I believe you because

>> the only thing is when you I mean I'll

say I'm not like well maybe I'm an idiot

but probably not about this. When you

find out that there was money but

somebody else got it then that kind of

gets your attention

>> right

>> you know but um the for me at least it

was it wasn't even about being famous

literally if you could believe that. It

was the joy of of understanding, you

know, what the the music from other

people that you loved. And as you grew

up from a, you know, that little first

inspiration, you began to kind of

understand what it was you liked about

what they did. And at some point then

started to try and do it yourself. But

that was a that was a long long time

after the initial joy of just enjoying

what they did.

>> Yeah. It's it's kind of sad that money

always does kind of distort things. But

if you were only interested in money and

only interested in fame or if that was

your primary concern, there's no way the

music would be that good. It's like that

that has to come from a real place. It's

a real place of creativity and

enjoyment. 100%. Yeah,

>> 100%.

You know,

>> well, for me it did. I just it it and

also the prospect of creating something

new tomorrow, you know, and and the

what's the word? You you get certain

feelings. Well, we all do, but um I've

learned to

how can I say it? Sort of it's like

being in a big swimming pool or

something, you know? That's all. It just

surrounds you. Let letting yourself

enjoy that feeling and then try to

figure out a way to put that into the

music, you know, express it in.

>> Yeah. Well, you did it, man. It's just

it's it's a long story with all these

different artists that have had to deal

with all these horrific managers. And I

was reading this article about um Jimmyi

Hendrick's manager. Uh so one of his

bodyguards uh wrote a book where he's

blaming Hendrick's manager for his death

and he was essentially saying that Hrix

was murdered and Hrix was about to leave

his manager and that's why he killed

him. And I don't know if you know the

story about Hrix, but his girlfriend

fell from a roof or jumped off a roof

shortly after Hendrickx died. And

apparently they were trying to get rid

of her as well because they knew that

she knew the whole deal behind it. Was

this the one with kind of a funny

foreign name?

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. They

>> I read a couple of Jimmy biographies,

but you know Yeah. Um

>> so many of these guys had mobbed up

managers.

>> Yeah. I do know that there was some

manager of his that I mean Jimmy owned

his masters. That was remarkable. That's

why that's why his family has the

masters, his estate, you know. They're

the ones that decide because every so

often a new Jimmy album would come out,

that sort of thing.

>> Um, I didn't know any of this way back

then. I just wondered, you know, who was

driving the bus. So, I mean, that part

was was pretty good. Uh, he had to talk

to somebody at Repre Records, and some

of those people were Repre uh Warner

Brothers. In other words, about the time

I was at Warner Brothers, it must have

been a couple of them, you know, that

decided that way back in the 60s. Um, I

guess I was a little envious because I

sure didn't own my masters, that's for

sure.

>> How many people owned their own masters

back then?

>> Um, nobody.

>> That's crazy. How do you think he got

that deal?

>> That I don't know. I don't know how it

how it came about that he was able to

have that much influence. I mean, that's

the part

I I did I did get the inference from the

at least one of the books I read about

Jimmy that um he they didn't try too

hard to save him.

>> Jimmy was I guess was just really effed

up for a couple of weeks there and

no one tried. You know, they were almost

I mean, I almost got the sense that

somebody took a bottle of wine and just

poured it in him, you know.

>> Yeah, that's what I had heard.

>> Yeah,

>> that's that was the what the bodyguard

was inferring that they poured pills and

alcohol down his mouth.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Terrible. Well, I I hope to never be in

such a state that I can't protest

something like that.

>> Right. Well, yeah. Yeah.

It's dark because uh apparently he was

ready to leave. if he wanted to leave

his manager

>> and obviously Jimmy was a gigantic star

>> and that guy saw all the money.

>> Well, he still is.

>> Still is to this day.

>> Every single guitar survey that ever

comes out, you know, it change all the

other numbers after

>> two,

>> right?

>> Keep changing with fashion and all that,

but it's always number one is Jimmyi

Hendris.

>> Always. Yeah. Kind of extraordinary when

you think about it. The guy died at 27

years old,

>> you know, and was already just from

another planet. Like you listen to his

like you listen to Voodoo Child Slightly

Turn.

>> You listen to that song, you're like,

>> is this guy from Earth? Like this was so

different than any other guitar playing

that had ever taken place before him. He

was a complete revolutionary. Like just

a completely new creative artist,

>> you know, and one of my favorite

musicians absolutely of all time. That's

why I named the podcast the Joe Rogan

Experience.

>> I wondered about that. Well, there it

is.

>> That's it. Stole it from Jimmy. You

>> Yep.

I should have named it the John Fogerty

Experience

>> instead of Credence.

>> Yeah. Well, I did create that name. Um,

>> what was the crazy name that the record

company called your one of your first

bands? They

>> Well, it was the same people.

>> Same people.

>> Yeah. Same. I mean the same individual

musicians. Um in high school or junior

high actually I started a band and

called it the Blue Velvets. Not all that

cre you know earth shaking but kind of a

cool vibe. Um

and we were really the Blue Velvets by

you know I mean this this was really a

trio but my brother was older. He was in

another orbit. Uh,

so we kind of went through high school

seeing each other every once in a while.

It wasn't like we were all trumping

around playing gig after gig. It was

more like, you know, every few months

there might be a sock hop or something

like that. Um,

and then

after high school and Tom Tom would come

and sing. He was my older brother. He

would come and sing once in a while with

us. We made a couple of recordings

during that time with real record

companies, but it was always kind of

just haphazard.

Um, and finally around the age of 19, I

went over and knocked on Fantasy Records

door. They had done this special about

Bench Galdi and they were in the Bay

Area. So, I, you know, went over there

and introduced myself. Anyway, so, you

know, one thing led to another. Finally,

we're recording

Uh, and at that time I think we made a

record with only three of us. Me and Tom

and Doug the drummer and I I overdubbed

a bass part and this is early or this

was in 1964.

Uh, when they finally pressed the

single, one side was called Little Girl.

It's kind of a four chord doo watt song.

The other side was sort of a English uh

or a British invasion

answer kind of thing. Mod music. It was

called Don't Tell Me No Lies. Anyway, we

excitedly go over to San Francisco to

their warehouse and open up the package

and it says the gollywobs. And we look

at each other and go, "What the hell?"

No, no, no. I think we had chosen our

name to be the Visions. It was just

something at the last minute because

we weren't really the Blue Bevels

anymore, but that was it. We thought it

was going to say Visions.

Um, but the record company had decided

they wanted to get in on the British

invasion mod, whatever, and named us the

Gollywogs.

Sounds like Polywog.

>> Yeah. He said, 'Well, a gollywag, you

see, is this doll that when the British

soldiers were in India, there would have

this little doll called a gollywag.

And so that's all we knew about it. Um,

as time went on, I mean, years and years

later, a long after I had been we

renamed the band or I'd renamed the band

Credence, found out that [ __ ] was a

this was a very racial thing. This was

the British soldiers calling the people

>> Whoa.

>> wags or gollywags. Yeah.

>> That's a gollywag.

>> Yeah. [ __ ] right?

>> Wow.

>> Same sort of.

>> Yep.

>> And they didn't know this either.

Obviously, there was no Wikipedia back

then.

>> I don't know. No, I don't know. I didn't

know that.

>> That's crazy that they could just change

your the name of your band without you

having any knowledge of it at all. You

open up the record and it's right there.

>> Yep. And they kind of insisted, you

know, it's that same thing that, well,

we're going to own the publishing to

your song. No, no, I should own it.

Well, then we're not going to make any

records.

Oh, okay.

>> You're 19.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's how they get you. You

don't know any.

>> Well, and you kind of want to make a

record.

>> Yeah. You want to make a record. It's

right there. You You taste it. Oh my

god, I'm going to be signed to a record

label. I'm going to be a rock star.

And then they come to you with a shady

contract. And that's their modus

operendi. So what they do with everybody

>> and for

I know they call it business. Um

>> funny term.

>> Yeah. Um most of those people

I mean it's like lottery to them. It's

like gambling. Um they don't have a clue

what creativity is. And at that age, the

young art I mean, I guess I'm looking at

you and saying, "If I only No, what's

that like? If I didn't know now what I

didn't know then. Um,

you're a young artist. You don't even

know what you got.

>> Right.

>> Right. You know, you have feelings about

music and but you don't,

you know, you're less than a rookie,

right?

>> You know, you maybe you were good in

junior high, but that doesn't mean

you're Willie Maize,

>> right? You know, so that's sort of how

that works. And they sign you up before

any of that self-realization happens.

And then you're messed.

>> Yeah. Again, that's what happened to

Prince. That's what happened to Skinner.

That's what happened to most bands. I

mean, they're very clever in how they do

it.

>> They sign a bunch of people that are

emerging and some of them are going to

hit.

>> Yep. and they bankroll it and then they

make the majority of the money when

those people hit.

>> Well, in our case, Credence was the only

thing that ever happened. Fantasy became

a very wealthy

record company.

Uh Saul origin eventually went into

making movies. So, he that money that I

had made for him at the record company,

you know, turned into one flew over the

cuckoo's nest. Oh wow.

>> Some other

uh Saul even had and in those times had

bought the movie rights for Lord of the

Rings. So

you know his he his ticket

got punched way up high

>> and we never got a dime a course of any

of that.

>> It's crazy how bad people can get ahead

like that.

>> Well that see that's Yeah.

>> That's what's disturbing. It's a

different

That's why I had a little hesitation

when you were talking about that you

thought the music came from a or

creativity came from a joyful good

place. But boy, you can sure look in

different parts of entertainment and or

business in general and see some really

bad people have made a lot of money.

>> Well, it takes the good people to create

things though. the creative people make

the things and there's always just going

to be people taking advantage of people

being naive about business.

>> I choose to believe

that at least it works for me. I choose

to believe that you've got to have a

good heart. You've got to

try to use the golden rule basically.

You know, don't do don't do something

bad to him that you wouldn't want to

have done to you. So the do unto others

as you would have them do to you. Yes.

Um

I I believe in God and I believe God is

watching me all the time, you know, all

of us. So that that part helps me to

feel like there's a a reason, you know,

to try and be a good person.

Um the reason being

you're in God's grace if you do those

things if you try to live a good life

honest and I guess we call it

transparent nowadays.

>> Yeah.

>> Um you know don't get me wrong I'm not

running around the world with a thumping

a Bible or something. I just think it's

common sense about

how ultimately you want to exist in the

universe, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Um

so, you know, that that's how I operate.

And so when I certainly now at my age,

when I see other people really getting

away with stuff, I just it it isn't like

I gee that's not fair. I should get the

I don't see it that way now. I just look

at that poor sap who's being so evil and

go, you know, he's going to get his

comeuppance someday.

>> Well, it's a horrible existence because

nobody loves you when you're like that.

If you're if you're doing that and

[ __ ] people over, all your

relationships are adversarial. It's a

bad way to exist. You're on a very bad

frequency the way you you exist with the

people in your circle.

>> I think that's true. I believe that

>> there's a lot of people that choose that

life just for financial benefit. They

choose to just [ __ ] people over and be

in that bad frequency all the time. But

that's not a good life. And I agree with

you. I think uh if you live your life

like God exists, you'll you'll have a

much better life. And the golden rule is

just it's provable. Like if you're a

nice person and you treat people well

and it spreads a lot of good energy

around you and positive

momentum with all these other people, it

it's the butterfly effect. It carries on

to other people that they encounter,

too. They're inspired by how kind and

friendly and generous you are. And it

it's good for everybody. It's good for

you. It's good for the people that

you're generous and friendly to. It's

good for the other people that they

encounter because they're inspired by

it. This is good for everyone. That's

how people should exist.

>> Yeah. I I literally I believe everything

you have just said and literally have

sometimes asked God for a you know I I

never sat around asked for money or a

hit record or I I always thought that's

kind of poor. That's bad you know. Yeah.

I mean that's selfish or greedy or

something. But I would ask for clarity

or, you know, I would ask God to help me

figure something out. And amazingly,

there would be through

a relation,

you know, somebody I was dealing with,

there would be something. It was like

karma, good karma coming back. And I

could

>> see the see the, you know, to me it was

a result of my prayer or my openness of

wanting to help get a situation

resolved. Um,

so for me, I've to me there's evidence

that it all works that way.

>> Did you always have a belief in God?

>> Yeah, I think there was times um,

yeah, be because I was just brought up

that way.

Um,

again, I don't believe my I I was just

was just taught in a kind of nice and

simple way about God. It it wasn't beat

over my head or anything. I was raised

Catholic, so in some sense, you can't

avoid having it beat over your head, I

suppose. And and some of that I

resisted. Um, but I went through the

normal things. I did my first communion,

my first confession. I did uh what do

you call that when you're 12 years old

that confirmation.

>> Um I chose the name for for St. Jerome

basically because there's a song by do

Bo Diddley called Bring It to Jerome and

uh Jerome was his I think Jerome Green

was his Morocco player and I really like

the vibe of that. So I'm going to be

Jerome. That's my confirmation name. Um,

yeah, it was it was there in those ways.

There was times I was boy, you've opened

a can of worms here

because I was so invested in being a

Catholic, even though my parents tried

to have me go to parochial school,

Catholic school. Um,

I was in the first grade and then I want

to say they kicked me out and then I

tried she my mom had me start again in

ninth grade at St. Mary's High School

and they kicked me out again. Um,

but it wasn't my fault. Anyway, the the

one that happened is funny. I mean, it's

just the one that happened in the first

grade. Uh, I had to take a bus to get

there. I lived in El Certo and the it

was the school of the Meline in Berkeley

and I'm in the first grade. I'm six

years old. So you had to go to the bus

stop, get on a bus, get a transfer.

So that then when the bus came to a

certain stop over in Albany, you then

got on a train,

you transferred, in other words, got on

the train and that went another mile or

so into Berkeley and at a certain stop

right behind the the school, the school

of the Meline Catholic school, you get

off the train and go on down into

school. Now, what happened?

My mom was a my parents had split up.

So, it was only my mom in the house and

she's leaving early because she's got a

job as a teacher and she's so she's out

of the house before me. And so, it's up

to me to get myself together and get to

the bus stop on time. Many, many times I

was late. I missed it. So, I had to get

the next bus. So, I'm late. So I'm

rushing to school,

but I get there after they've already

they would march every morning to John

Philips Souza and

you know all that and go on into school

and I I get there now I'm late. The

schoolyard is empty. I literally have to

climb over the fence because they've

locked the fence at boom 8:00 or

whatever it was. and I have to scale the

fence, run the class without going to

the bathroom. This was my first grade

experience. Sat down in my chair.

Within an hour, I really got to pee. And

Sister Damian would not answer me. I got

I got to I got to And so she would one

day I peed in my seat.

It happened again. It became a habit.

Sister Damian John Fogerty has a puddle

under his chair.

>> Oh, no.

>> Right.

>> That was so traumatizing to me.

>> Yeah. But ask yourself, how is a

six-year-old,

getting on a bus all by himself,

traveling three or four miles, then

getting out of the bus, going over to

where the train station thing is,

getting on a train, going over there,

and I mean, I certainly never let my

six-year-olds do anything like that.

>> I know it is kind of crazy how kids were

just able to just leave the house and do

anything back then. I think about that.

When I was a little kid, I used to just

leave my house.

>> Yep.

>> Seven years old, just leave the house.

>> You were home for dinner time.

>> Yeah.

>> It's kind of crazy. I mean, it's kind of

amazing. We all lived

>> Yeah.

>> if you stop and think about it. But to

have to take a bus and then a train and

go to school when you're six years old,

that's nuts.

So, uh, I went to Catholic school, too,

for first grade only. And uh that

screwed me off of religion for a long

time cuz I thought of God back when I

was a little kid before I went to

Catholic school as you know God is all

knowing and God is love and God created

the universe and God is

>> God's looking out for you. He's just got

some rules you have to follow. Made

sense to me. And then when I went to

Catholic school there was a lady I don't

remember anybody's name from back then

but I remember her Sister Mary

Josephine. She was so mean. She was just

a mean lady. She did the whole thing.

The whacking people with rulers, tell

you you're going to have to stay

overnight and you're going to have to

sleep on a nail in the closet. Like

>> just evil. Like wanted you to cry. When

I would cry, she'd call me a crybaby.

And I remember thinking after that,

like, I don't want to have nothing to do

with religion ever again. Right when I

left first grade.

>> Yep.

>> I hated it. And I was like, whatever God

is, this is not God. Like these people

have nothing to do with God. this lady,

there's no way this lady is the

messenger of God. This lady's mean.

>> That took a whole lifetime

to figure out, to realize, well, this is

just a man-made thing.

>> You know, God's there

>> and some man-made thing over here, you

know, they became Mormons and some

man-made thing over there, they became

Muslims, you know, and it's just all

man-made. It isn't actually God.

>> Right.

>> Right. And so you and man is fallible.

Of course, he's not infinite and he's

not infallible.

>> And so all these things were that but

that took a lifetime for me. I I'm sure

I was in my 40s still working on that

trying

>> Yeah.

>> that God's okay, John. You don't have to

resist when somebody wants to make a

prayer or so. You know, it's

>> it it isn't God's fault that you peed at

your desk when you were in the first

grade.

etc.

>> It's the mean none.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I uh I have a similar perspective.

I I think uh I think all religious

scriptures, they're trying to document a

a real thing. Espe especially

Christianity, which is the one I've paid

the most attention to. I think they're

trying to document a real thing, but the

hand of man is clearly all over it.

That's the problem. The problem with

anything that's written down and we know

that just in like the religious cannon,

the books that were included in the

Bible, human beings had a decision on

what goes in and what doesn't go in. You

know, there was rabbis that kept the

book of Enoch out of the Old Testament.

There's a lot of this weird stuff to it

that you go like, well, why do pe why do

people have any say? Why is a human have

any say in what the word of God is? That

sounds crazy. And when you read the

scriptures, you're like, somebody wrote

that down and someone told that story

for who knows how many years before it

was ever written down. But I think the

origins of it, there's truth to it. It's

just you have to get through all these

many layers of confusion to try to

decipher what what God's original

message was and like what how was it

received? Who got it? How did it how did

it even get relayed? like what was was

the original event that led to this oral

tradition that led to it being written

down?

>> I'm smiling because this sounds exactly

like a young musician has come to see

this more learned person and tell him

about his experience

and the more learned person turns into

the manager or the record company and he

says I want to own this.

>> Right? And you know, they take all that

all that good intentions and faith and

somebody ends up

>> owning it and you end up paying a tithe,

you know, into a plate and they make a

lot of money.

>> See, in organized religion, especially

when it gets to like these huge

megaurches and preachers, like that's

exactly what it is.

>> It's someone taking advantage of this

good thing and profiting off of it

immensely.

>> Yeah. But the thing I think the point of

like if you live your life like God's

real, it'll be a better life.

>> I agree with that. I But I think you

also know I think you can just

>> There's something there.

>> It's it's sensible that you try to share

that you try not to be greedy. Yes. You

know, I don't mean you have to be a

fool. I just mean that

>> you don't have to be overtly always

taking way more than your share.

>> Yeah. Just be kind. be kind and be fair.

Um, how old were you when you first

started playing music?

>> You mean as an instrument?

>> Messing around. Like, how did you get

into it?

>> Right. Well, I was actually I was given

a snare drum. Uh, I think I was about

four years old. It was a really cheap

paper one.

>> Was your family musicians?

>> Uh, not really, but they were musical.

Both of them, my mom and dad. Um, one of

my one of my finest and favorite

memories is uh there was we lived in the

Bay Area of of the East Bay from San

Francisco.

And my parents would go up to this place

in Northern California near Winters,

California. That's up like toward

Sacramento. And there was this uh creek,

this body of water called the Puda

Creek. Eventually they damned that up

and made Lake Beressa.

Uh but anyway, back then it was just a a

running water and there was some people

could camp there. There was at this one

place they took me

um reputedly was owned by a man named

Cody

and he was a direct descendant of

Buffalo Bill Cody. I actually met him

one day when I was about four and he was

probably coming to collect the the

payment for the cabin and the you know

little space. Anyway, um and I I

remember looking at him and wow. So I

was told that story and he was he would

have been about 75. He literally could

have been a son of Buffalo Bill. He

would have been born at that point. It

was probably 1949.

the story I'm relating and he, you know,

would have been born in 1875. I mean,

it's mind-boggling to think that. Um,

but the the my favorite memory thing

other other than the fact that that

whole place inspired my song Green

River. That's all the little parts are

in Green River. Um, but one of the

things my parents had this old Ford, old

Green Ford, and they'd be driving along

at night up there is what I mean. I

guess they were more happy or something

there. And they I remember sitting

between them, you know, it was just a

big couch in the front seat and they

were singing songs in the dark and they

were singing like By the Light of the

Silvery Moon or Baby Face uh and

harmonizing.

One was taking the melody and the other

was harmonizing. The reason I know is

because I'd sat there and I'm probably

three, four, five years old right in

there. I said, "What are you guys

doing?" Because I knew the melody, but

but I hear two notes. What What are you

doing? And they explained they were

harmonizing. And it was just the coolest

thing. And it was so such a happy time.

I mean, I really I felt what's that

bonded to that, I guess, like that. I

really like this whatever it is.

So that was the initial spark.

>> Well, they began to notice that I I was

musical. So at some point I know I again

at my fourth birthday there somebody

gave me a or I had a little toy

harmonica

and my dad, you know those little

plastic kind of things. My dad picked it

up and he played Oh Susanna in the

cowboy style. In other words, it's

probably a C harmonica. He played in C,

not like blues players do bending notes.

He played that thing you see in the

cowboy movies when they're sitting

around the campfire and

that sort of thing. I was just shocked.

I'd never seen my dad do anything like

that. Wow. And then uh on top of that,

my mom could play piano, what we now

call stride piano. She would hit the and

then play a chord like a octave of bass

notes and then a chord above it.

keep that going as like the drummer in

the thing and then play melody and high

notes up above. And it was, you know,

she did she would

one of my favorite ones was um Harvest

Moon, Shine on Harvest Moon, which is a

great song and it just was magical to

me. So that that kind of opened the door

to let me know that, oh why, we can do

this in our own house.

Um, so the piano was around and then we

also, I don't know whose it was, but we

had an old Stella acoustic guitar.

Stella is a name going back into the

30s, 20s. And this thing was built like

a tank. Um, just it was hard to play.

The strings were like way high and all

that. Eventually, Brother Bob told me at

some point, "Yeah, we used to play

baseball with that guitar. we'd hit

ball.

That's how sturdy it was. But that was

around so that I would every once in a

while mess with it. Um, but somewhere

literally in the seventh grade is where

I started to really try and learn a

chord and that sort of thing.

>> Is that when you thought I'm going to be

a musician?

I think that moment was a little bit

earlier. It was again up at this place,

Winters. Um, my dad had driven into the

town from our little cabin, our

campsite,

and I was with him and he'd gone to this

general store and in the general store

had everything, had food and stuff, but

also had uh fishing tackle and, you

know, various weird things. So, I'm

standing there sort of near the counter

and my dad's doing some kind of

business. I'm just looking and suddenly

I hear music and I'm What the heck is

that? Well, I didn't even know they had

a jukebox in this place, right? And

somebody had started the jukebox. So,

that it's playing music that I really

like. It's rock and roll. And I'm, you

know, I'm about 10 years old. Man,

that's good. And I don't know who it is.

It's just got a really bluesy sound, but

it's it's fast. It's rock and roll. I

run over and I finally determined it's

Elvis Presley. I could I never heard

this. I knew of Elvis, of course, on TV.

He had done Heartbreak Hotel. I I had

seen the the Tommy Jimmy Dorsy show that

he'd been on three times. He was on

there, I think, five times. Anyway, um

and so, wow, Elvis did this. What is

this? So it turned out it was the other

side of his second big million seller

which was I want you I need you I love

you. This was a song called My Baby Left

Me. And this was basically classic Sun

Records vibe even though he was now on

RCA. It was that thing they did on Sun

Records that just that kind of country

whale with guitar that was more country

than blues. and the guitar especially

just I said what is that I'm watching

and this Scotty Moore who I didn't know

his name at the time but he's just

playing this

otherworldly stuff and that was I looked

at that and I I mean literally my head

made I don't know I said this to myself

I don't know what they're doing but

that's what I want to do.

>> Wow.

>> And I made up my mind right there in

that three minutes of that song.

>> That's amazing. Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Well, it was transformative. It still

is. It's just a pretty unique slice of

American music.

>> I don't think I'm aware of that song. I

I'm going to listen to it after the

podcast.

>> You probably know his song, Elvis's

song, That's All Right, Mama.

>> Sure.

>> Right. Well, this is in that vein. It's

actually the same writer,

>> uh,

Arthur Credup.

>> Arthur Big Boy Cut Up. So, your family

was musical, but you didn't know any

musicians. So, what did you think you

were going to do? Like, how did you

think you were going to eventually

become a musician? Did you have a plan?

Um,

at some point,

you know what? At some point, a little

earlier than that, but right around that

time, it was the era of DooWap,

right?

This is the way I mean a kid can you can

just go anywhere in your mind right

and I suppose the Corvette automobile of

course had come out. So

in a very young mind but one of those

cool I guess we call them mashups I was

going to have a group but it was a all

singing. I was gonna have a group and it

was going to be called Johnny Corvette

and the Corvettes,

right? And there was four. I'm Johnny

and three other guys. And we're all in

sparkle jackets, you know, the the show

business, right?

>> And we're black.

All of us.

>> That was your idea?

That's what I saw. I was referring to

what I was seeing

to be Johnny Corvette in the Corvettes.

That was one of the ingredients.

>> How are you going to be black?

>> I don't know. I didn't have to worry

about that.

I mean, the the funny thing is that's so

similar here is like when I was little,

I wanted to be a baseball player, right?

But some kids dream of being in the NBA.

Mhm.

>> But you got to be 9117,

>> right?

>> You know, I mean, so how's that going to

happen? I mean, you just said it in a

really innocent way, but a kid just I'll

eat spinach or something, you know.

>> You eat spinach and become black

>> and tall.

>> Tall,

>> you know, I don't know, but it worked

for me. I mean, literally when I, you

know, one of my dreams as a kid really

was I wanted I love baseball. Still do.

I wanted the, you know, okay, what do I

got to do? And I'd start throwing a I

was throwing a ball against the side of

the house. I'd made a big like a target,

you know, bullseye. And I I don't know

why I did it that way. And my mom caught

me. I was throwing a actual hard ball

and it was bent the clapboard, you know,

the wood. It was I was tearing the house

down. So, she got me a tennis ball and

that was okay. I was no good, you know.

I wouldn't. It was I was that dream was

never going to happen.

>> Is that what inspired put me in coach?

>> Of course.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> What a great anthem.

>> Thank you.

>> It's amazing.

>> Thank you. Yeah. Well,

>> I mean, how many baseball games have

played that song? My my god. I mean, at

least, you know, I mean, there's a lot

of us semi- nerds, I guess, you know,

wanted to play ball, wanted to be a

jock, and just really at some point, you

know, the ones that really have it pass

you by,

>> right?

>> Of course.

>> And you just kind of But in your mind,

everybody got their scorecard and, you

know, and they're following the game and

all that. And that that vicarious joy of

watching Otani or Aaron Judge or whoever

it is you love. Uh

you get to have that in your heart

anyway. But I mean I'm the luckiest guy

in the universe. Okay. I didn't get to

play but I wrote a song and my song's

there all the time. It's just it's just

the coolest feeling. the song my that

song's in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

>> That's amazing.

>> It is amazing. It's ridiculous.

>> But it's just like that happened to me,

you know? It's like, God, I could cry

over that.

>> But when they had sent a letter to me

and they were going to, you know, and

put the music in the hall, I just was

>> God, who do I tell?

>> Geez. Yeah, it was so good.

>> That's amazing. That's amazing. So, when

we when did you start writing your own

songs? I was eight years old.

>> Wow.

>> Do you remember your first song?

>> Yes. Or at least the one I remember is I

call it the one I can remember.

It was u morning. I was getting ready to

go to school. I could walk to school was

like

two and a half blocks from my house,

something like that. I lived on Ramona.

You go past Pomona and then the next

street was

Ashberry

and the school was on Ashberry up about

two blocks, Harding School. Um, it was a

grammar school. Anyway, I'm getting

ready to go to school. Got my lunch. I

about to turn off the radio and this

commercial comes on. I was listening to

R&B, right? The rhythm and blues channel

from Oakland. And the DJ suddenly says,

"Do you have the wash day blues?

Is this day going to be drudgery becau?

Well, maybe you're using the wrong and

they went off talking about laundry

soap, right? I don't know if there was a

song involved in the commercial. I think

it was just a red because it was

probably live, you know, right there on

old time radio.

>> So, I went out the door when, you know,

carrying my little sack with the lunch

in it. It's a wash day blues. Wow.

>> I get kind of to the end of the street.

I think that's Lynn. I got to go down,

you know, three streets. I'm walking

along. Say, "Wow, what?

I got the white blue." I'm making that

noise. It's Muddy Waters. It's the riff

from um probably Hoochie Coochie Man,

you know,

>> right?

>> Uh and it all comes together. I'm just

walking down the street singing about

all the stuff that because it's blues,

right? Right. And I'm hearing all these

guys on this, you know, channel I listen

to sing the blues and about blues. So I

got wash day blues. That's my that's my

song.

You know, for years and years. I thought

I thought I was embarrassed about that

story. It's God, John, why couldn't you

have a great story about the sinking of

the Titanic or something? You watch day

blues it because it just seems so

mundane.

But now I kind of recognize because of

the the two elements I had put together

um it it's just kind of natural. It's

really the process of writing songs.

>> That's amazing. And so when when you

wrote songs like I I I saw this uh video

clip where you talking about I think it

was Old Man Down the Road. Is that the

the the beginning riff?

>> You had it.

>> Yeah. And you were talking about how

that riff just hit you.

>> Yep.

>> Is that

>> Well,

yeah. Um, I had this place. Uh, it was

my studio. It was a convert basically

the garage of a house that I had bought

to be my my office and my place. So, it

was a size of a garage uh that I would

go there every day. So in the morning

I'd get in, I'd turn on my tape recorder

and, you know, various pieces of

equipment and stuff. That was my process

certainly every weekday morning,

sometimes on Saturday, Sunday, whatever,

but certainly the five days a week. Um,

and I'd walk in there and uh work on

music. I did this every day for I mean

years and years from

74 until center field came out basically

which was 11 years later. Um

and so one morning I walk in and I

haven't even turned on the the stuff

yet. I just for some reason I went right

to the guitar and I turned on the amp

and picked up the guitar and just kind

of noodling because I like to do that. A

lot of my songs have started this way

but suddenly just played

and it really had that sound to it and I

I got my attention because I knew that

it wasn't anything else and I also I

mean this is like in a this is how quick

our brains can work, you It's taken me

way longer to tell it than the actual

thing. But so I've played the

and I realize it's not complete. It

needs an answer. And I'm also aware that

it's like being on a tight rope or

something over Niagara Falls. You know,

you got to have the right answer and

there's probably only one cuz all the

other ones are going to kill it and

you'll never remember this again because

that happens all the time, right?

>> You know, it'd be lame. You you there,

it's precarious. It's hanging in the air

and you got to come back with the thing

to make it complete and it has to be the

right thing.

Yeah.

Yes. And so I

Oh my god. Yeah. And I've you know I

play it over and over probably for five

minutes. I just tend to do that. That's

that's the joy of music. That's the joy

right there. That because I knew it

wasn't anything else. There was no

question in my mind. Well, is this

coming from, you know, the Beatles or

Howland Wolf or something? Right.

>> Um, so immediately

I I had kept this little song book

that's only about that big

>> uh with titles in it and I go flipping

through the the book and I think I see

something that's somewhere down the

road. Okay, that for some reason

appealed to me and I stuck with Okay,

that's what it's called. This song is

going to be somewhere down the road and

that day I start. So now I turn on my

tape recorder and all that. I play some

because I had to play real drums and um

that's what took me so long folks.

Anyway, um, so I make a little thing

that's just the riff and then make a

space of just the drums playing and

nothing else so I can kind of listen to

it and improvise what's what's going on

after this riff, what's somewhere down

the road. And of course, I start talking

about uh

he get the thunder from the mountain, he

bring the lightning from the sky, you

know, and all that. and these things are

going on and some you got to shoot

forward probably a few weeks. I realize

I'm starting to write a song but the

title somewhere down the road to me just

seems lame. It seems undefined, not cool

enough, not focused and probably not

going to remember it because it it

sounds like just what it is. You won't

remember that.

>> Right.

>> Right. You know, if you say, "I've got a

polka dot Chevy sitting on top of a

bull moose or whatever, and that's your

title." You probably get a picture in

your head, you know, right?

>> It's going to stick. So, I'm hunting

around. What are you doing here? What

are you talking about in this song?

We're talking about this guy. He's He's

evil. He's the old man. He's the old man

down the road.

Oh, that's way better. So, it the song

became that.

>> The the deal is with my little song

book.

>> Probably two years later after the that

album had come out, I said, "You know

what? I want to I want to check on where

Somewhere Down the Road came." And I

went cover to cover

and it's not in there. There is no place

where I've written Somewhere Down the

Road. I just thought I saw it and that

led me to a really cool song.

>> Wow.

>> The reason I'm telling you this is there

was a time I I had an office in Warner

Brothers and I would when I was staying

down in uh LA and I would go in there

all the time and write, had some

keyboards and stuff. And one day I

thought I needed a break. I took my book

and I went out and sat. It was Warner

Brothers parking lot. My car is went out

to my car and sat down because I was

trying to give myself some

in, you know, get going, do something.

And I thumb through the book and I saw

change in the weather and I said, "Man,

I like that."

And I look up and it's kind of a cloudy,

gloomy sky, you know, and Yeah. Changing

the Yeah. So, I ran back in my room and

I started I went off. I was inspired and

I wrote a song called Changing the

Weather. Well, same deal. After that

album came out, I decided to check my It

ain't in there. Is nowhere in my book

where it says change in the weather. So

I nowadays tell people, you know, maybe

it's a shape shifter and there's stuff

in there it can just kind of go, John,

listen to this. I got an idea for you.

>> Right. Well, the creative process is so

mysterious. Yes.

>> Cuz everybody that I talk to, whether

it's comedians or authors or musicians,

they say the ideas almost don't feel

like they're theirs, like they're

receiving them from somewhere

>> for certain.

>> That's how you feel?

>> Yep. To me, it's it's like tuning in a

radio.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And

and a lot of it there's I guess it's the

way I was raised. You kind of have to be

worthy,

>> right?

>> You know, I mean, there's a a big dose

of if you're all angry and treating

people mean and doing all that, I'm

closing the book. I'm not sending you

nothing.

>> I think that, too.

>> Yeah.

>> I think that, too. You got to be

receptive and and honor

>> this process that we're going through

here. And you if you are in that frame

of mind and

>> some humility about this whole thing,

>> maybe I'll send you something.

>> The Muse.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Have you ever heard of Steven

Presfield?

>> Huh?

>> Steven Presfield. He's an author. He

wrote a great book called The War of

Art. And uh I give this book I have

boxes of this book out front and I give

it to comedians and artists all the time

because it's just a book about the

creative process about writing. And one

of the things that he talks about is the

muse about giving honor to the muse and

sitting there and and calling upon the

muse for these ideas that if you treat

it like it's a real thing, it will

provide you. If you show up every day

and you put in the work, the muse will

give you these ideas.

>> Yep. But they do feel like to everybody

that I talk to that's really creative,

they feel like they're coming from

somewhere.

>> Yeah. And Yeah. It it feels like it's

always been there,

>> right?