I'm not saying that to give affection.

I'm just saying give affection to

patience and calmness and open mind,

right? Because when you when your dog

misbehave, you want him to go back

there. Go back to your good state of

mind, right? You don't want the dog to

do fightlight avoidance, those are the

bad state of mind. The good state of

mind is patience comes surrender or

happy golucky. Those are good state of

mind. Welcome to the Huberman Lab

podcast, where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stamford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Caesar Milan, better known as

the dog whisperer and the preeminent dog

trainer in the world. Today's episode is

truly for everyone, not just dog owners.

You're going to learn a lot about human

psychology and behavior, and it will

help you better interact with other

humans in every type of relationship.

For instance, you will learn a simple

tool that allows you to move through the

world with a clear, calm state of mind

that will allow you to interact with

others more effectively, to listen and

act with more clarity and intention. And

not incidentally, that clear, calm state

of mind is also what dogs respond to

best, and what makes them feel safe and

healthy. Today we talk about the

critical importance about understanding

dog biology and psychology and the fact

that they are pack animals and that we

have to remove our human sense about

these animals as our pets and of course

they are our pets and they're extremely

cute. They are family members but

understand the hardwired aspects of

their brain and biology that allow us to

be the best leaders for them. I have to

warn you, a lot of what you hear today

may sound counterintuitive at first

until you understand the biology of dogs

and the fact that they respond to

people's energy and actions, not words.

I know they can listen to commands, they

can learn words and commands, but

they're responding to the energy and the

actions associated with those commands.

Only then can you be the most effective

dog owner. And by effective, I mean

making your dog as healthy and feeling

safe as possible. I should point out

that one of the reasons I'm so excited

Caesar came on this podcast is that I

had an amazingly positive experience

with his methods years ago when I got my

first puppy, Costello, who was a bulldog

mastiff. I read his book, Be the Pack

Leader, and the principles within that

book were critical for developing an

incredible relationship with Costello,

who lived 11 years. You could bring him

into any environment. I would bring it

to class. I would bring him into

different people's homes. I could take

him essentially anywhere. He loved kids.

He loved people. And he was extremely

well behaved. exceedingly lazy, too, but

exceedingly well- behaved. And I credit

that to the methods that I learned from

Caesar's book. So, if you have a dog or

you're considering getting a dog or you

want to better understand how to

regulate your energy and behavior in all

types of interactions with dogs, with

cats, and with other humans, today's

episode will teach you those extremely

valuable tools. And I'm extremely

pleased to announce the newest member of

the Huberman Lab podcast team, Strummer.

He's also a bulldog mastiff mut. He's

similar to Costello in breed, but I

should say not a pure English bulldog.

So, not a lot of snoring and the other

stuff that go along with English

bulldogs. I love the English bulldog

breed, but when they're mudded with

other breeds like this one, they breathe

a lot easier and he's just the sweetest

thing. So, you'll be seeing and perhaps

hearing more from Strummer. I am

applying all of Caesar's methods to

training Strummer. You can see he's a

very calm, relaxed dog. He gets two

walks a day and a bunch of other things

you'll learn about during today's

episode that will benefit you if you

have or you're thinking about getting a

dog. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Caesar

Milan. Cesar Milan.

>> Yes, sir. Welcome. I'm a huge fan.

>> Thank you.

>> Your book,

>> thank you. Thank you. I'm honored to

hear that. I But I will say your book,

>> Be the Pack Leader. I read the hard copy

>> to raise my first puppy. We never had a

dog in my home growing up.

>> Yeah.

>> To raise Costello.

>> Yeah.

>> Bulldog mix. Stubborn dog.

>> We went 11 years together, he and I. And

that book and your other teachings were

tremendously impactful for my

relationship with him. Yeah. but also in

my work life, in my entire life. We're

going to talk about some of the themes

from that book and beyond today. But I

just want to extend my gratitude. It's a

true honor and pleasure to have you

here.

>> Yeah. In uh modern parlance, they say,

"You're the man."

>> No, you're the man.

>> The pack leader.

>> That's right. Yeah, many many people

want dogs, have dogs, have these

concepts of dogs that lead them to think

they're a great dog owner, but a lot of

dog behavioral issues, emotional issues.

>> We know probably reflect something in

>> the human as well.

>> Yeah, probably.

>> So certainly,

>> yeah, because there is no knowledge

behind instinct. It's all reaction. So

you can never blame an animal for doing

the wrong thing. You see it? So, so you

can guarantee for a dog to do the right

thing, right? And and so how well that

means the human has good energy. And

what's good energy? Well, if you

understand the power of silence, which

that gives you patience, the power of

calmness, which that gives you trust.

And calmness is you just learn how to

breathe, right? The power of confidence,

that's knowledge, right? And the the

power of love when to give love because

a lot of times people give love at the

wrong time. So you end up nurturing the

wrong behavior,

>> right? So that's what happened to my

clients. And then the power of joy,

that's the celebration, right? We're

going to FIFA right now. We're going to

World Cup. Nobody celebrates unless they

make a goal. You see what I'm saying?

But they have to be patient, calm,

confident, love what they're doing, and

celebrate afterward. See, they follow

that formula. It's the silence. It's the

comment before anybody's going to go

through something so powerful uh such as

winning, right? Or being in a team or

being in a group. The energies of

silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy

is what makes them become a great team

because that's what connects your

spirit, your instinct, your heart and

your mind. It's the same way we have to

connect with a dog. It's not just

emotional. It's not just intellectual.

You know, when people just want to train

the dog, what you train is the mind.

What you connect is the spirit, the

instinct, and the heart. That's what you

connect. And that's why I say trust,

respect, love. Trust the spirit. Respect

instinct. Love with the heart. Create

with your mind. For many people,

especially in the United States, they're

not familiar with

feeling energy and exchanging energy

with a dog.

>> Right?

>> I'll give an example of when Costello,

my previous bulldog, some probably

bulldog Mastiff, who knows what he was,

but whatever he was, he was Costello.

>> But I learned something very important

from you. before he's costello. He's an

animal.

>> That's right.

>> Spirit. Ah, spirit, animal, specy,

>> breed, name. You see? So, the last thing

they are is the breed in the name.

>> So, when I rehabilitate a dog, what I'm

doing is bringing back the happy spirit,

bringing back the healthy instinct and

bringing back the rules by those

limitations mind because that's what

makes them well behaved when they

understand rules by those limitations.

No matter what breed they are. So it

really doesn't matter if you have a

pitbull or rod white or German shepherd

or I'm Mexican and you're white and

African-American. It really doesn't

matter the race of the human. What

matter is is that person has a happy

spirit, a healthy instinct and a well

educated mind, right? So you want to be

a good human, right? And you want to be

part of the pack of the good humans. And

those humans are good,

>> right? Those are those are the humans

that help other humans or or or they

create uh well behaved dogs because

they're following in that path.

>> You know, there is some people are born

to the I mean I'm I was I'm part of the

pack where better humans better planet

>> but I know a lot of people who are not

part of that path. So it's that

>> yeah certainly uh raising and and living

with Costello taught me a lot about how

to sense people's energy. I had an

amazing experience with him that I just

want to share briefly that I realized

now is probably the spirit component

>> but it was something that I tried on the

base of what I read in your book.

>> So I was walking him and sometimes he

didn't want to walk in a particular

direction you know so he was always

walked to my side or a little bit behind

me. I had that going from very early

point. I practice no look, no touch, no

speak in the first um, you know, minutes

of contact or coming home. And we can

talk about why that's important.

>> But at one point, I decided based on

what you put in your book to try

something that seemed kind of wacky to

me

>> at the time

>> where I was just going to

>> at some point during the walk, it was a

we had a great stride. We're having a

good time. He's smelling things, but

we're moving on. And

>> and I decide to just send him like

approval energy. Like I'm just going to

think it and then I and then feel it.

I'm just going to send him some energy.

And we're just walking. I'm just doing

this. I did not change where I was

looking. I did not change, as far as I

know, like the tension on the leash. Who

knows?

>> And he just looks right up at me. And I

was like, "This is incredible."

>> After a really good day of hiking or at

work, he used to come to the lab with me

or something. We were sitting or I was

cooking or something. Every once in a

while, I would just while I'm doing

something else, I would just send him

like this positive energy.

>> Yeah.

>> And he would look over at me. It was it

was wild. Yeah. And I realized he's

sensing things that are beyond my words.

In fact, I don't know that he ever

really listened what I said terribly

much.

>> He could really feel what I was feeling.

>> He was probably paying attention a lot

more of the time than I was aware.

>> Mhm.

>> But I also had the experience of when he

was doing something I didn't like, I

could send him disapproval.

>> That's right.

>> And he would stop.

>> It was wild. we were, you know, meters

away from each other and I could send

him this energy. Now, to you, this is

probably like, yes, of course. But I

think for me, and I think for most

people that have dogs

>> or thinking about owning a a dog, you

think this is crazy, right? Yeah.

>> But I swear all my life that you I could

do this in a variety of circumstances

while driving anything. And he would

react according to the

>> the energy that I was sending. Yeah.

Out. As a neuroscientist, I can make up

some story. Okay. what we have fish have

electric sensing field. I can make up a

story in neurology, neuroscience that

would more or less hold together, but I

want to know your impression of like

what is this and and then hopefully that

will take us into a discussion more

about energy exchange between all sorts

of beings.

>> Well, you know, silence is very

powerful, right? Uh um the the power of

prayer. Uh my mom certainly is always

connected. uh you know when I crossed

the border I failed my mom you know I

jumped the border and so jumping the

border is a life and death thing right

and then so you you you give yourself to

God and then of course you know your mom

is is always thinking about you so you

feel this energy uh that is done by the

by the prayer or by the silence you are

what you believe and so if you believe

you can connect and you communicate this

way cuz you uh you're going to be I mean

the fact that people are not aware of

energy. We can feel that that person

doesn't feel good and we're not we don't

even know each other, you know. So

imagine if we humans are sensitive to

that. All animals never stop this way of

being, right? The sensitivity of

animals, they they don't go into the

mind. They stay within the instinct

because that's how they stay safe, you

know, and and maintain the peace. And

so, uh, what you did was exactly that.

Don't talk. Don't talk with words. Talk

with energy, body language, and

intention. You know how how do you

become the best doctor in the world?

Because that's all you think about it.

>> That's all you think about it. You know,

even when you go to sleep, even when

you're nobody, you're not talking about

it. That's so you create the law of

attraction. You create the law of

creation. The most difficult law is the

law of maintenance, right? Because it's

easy to attract, it's easy to create.

What's hard is to maintain,

>> right?

>> And that's why patience is so important

or silence is so important. Yeah.

Because it's this one is is infinite.

It's an infinite energy. So if you feel

that imagine how powerful you become and

then just to be right here where you are

claiming your space

calm that gives you another power

because that gives the animals the

capability to trust. And then your

intention right what is it that you want

without words. I just don't want you to

pee over there. I just don't want you to

go after that dog. I just want you to

stop doing what you're doing. Cuz think

about when cats communicate with a dog.

It's a completely different species, but

can a cat control a dog the same way you

did? Same silence, calm, confident. So

that's that's that's why a cat can

control a Rodweller and a pitbull.

Right? When people feel, oh, it's a it's

a very dangerous breed. At the moment

you think something is dangerous, you

you give your power away, right? At the

moment you bring silence, calmness,

confidence, you regain your power back.

And that's the first line of

communication before sound. But most

people focus on I want to train my dog.

I want my dog to listen to commands. No,

no, no, no. You want your dog to listen

to your silence, to your calmness, to

what's in your mind without saying a

word. That's exactly it right there.

That was the the relationship with

Costello improved in order of magnitude

when I understood that that I could talk

to him all day or say whatever.

>> It had a very little potency

>> compared to how I would show up. And

then it also taught me a lot of course

about how to arrive home,

>> how to walk into a, you know, I bring

him to class. I taught, you know, 400

per person class. He would walk in. It

was very interesting. everyone, you

know, oh, dog, dogs, most professors

wouldn't bring their dog to class

>> and he knew it was all there. Typical

Costello, you know, he would just kind

of walk to the front of the classroom.

>> He would wait a few minutes, not look at

anybody, and then he he would decide. He

just like glare at all. He could light

up a room.

>> But I understood that

>> I wouldn't let him be like the too much

of a celebrity or else he would start

misbehaving. I had to remind him like,

you know, we have a structure and an

order. That's correct. And I do think

that people would benefit so much from

getting in touch with this capacity that

they have to sense their own energy and

the energy of other people regardless of

if they have a dog.

>> Well, you know, Americans go to India to

be quiet, right? And then to uh to f to

practice not eating which they call

fasting, right? And then to stretch.

Practically it is silence, you know,

learn how to breathe

>> and then stretch gives you a little bit,

you know, agility into it and you learn

to control hunger which in a third

country that's what we learn,

>> right? We learn to control hunger. We

learn to be quiet. We learn to be calm.

We learn, you know, whatever we know, we

do really good at it. We become really

good farmers, really good animal people,

right? and uh family people, you know,

God people and and so we have a good

structure, good discipline and such a

basic simple stuff. And that's what

gives us the uh the upper hand of uh

walk a dog off leash. You know, when I

started walking dogs in America, I

didn't know it was illegal to walk dogs

off leash. I was walking 40 60 dogs at a

time, right? And I was doing it off

leash because that's all I knew.

>> You see it? And so that that uh that

energy of silence, calmness, confidence

is what now I now that I understand what

I did is what led me to this event, you

know, for people to see me from

Englewood to South Central. It's a

Mexican guy that walks a pack of dogs

from Englewood to South Central off

leash. That's when the LA Times came and

and did a piece of me because they

didn't they couldn't understand, you

know, this concept of walking a dog off

leash. this dog shaman or something

>> and a dog in the land of the free,

right? Because you know dogs in America

have rights, but that doesn't mean they

can walk off leash.

>> You see, the dog has to be on a leash

>> and humans have to learn uh to to

transmit that energy through the leash

because there's a lot of dogs that react

on the leash when the dog should be the

most well behaved, then a dog is off the

leash, you see. But the leash in the

animal world is trust, respect, love.

the the the leash in the animal world is

that human understanding, you know,

silence, calmness, confidence, love,

joy, and that's pack leader, direction,

protection, right? That's the only way

you can say I'm a pack leader, right?

Cuz you are that energy.

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I'm uh in a dilemma whether to go down

the uh the concepts of what is happening

in third world countries not just today

but always in terms of how people sense

energy and use energy versus what we do

here but I think I'm also keen on the

fact that many people listening don't

know how to walk their dog

>> I'll ask a very simple question first

>> should the dog always be next to you or

behind you uh is there ever an instance

where the dog should walk out in front

of you. And as I say this, we both

realize many people walk with their dog

in front of them. So, uh, could you tell

us about the concept of where the dog is

relative to

>> Well, think about it. Look at it this

way so people uh can can uh uh adopt the

the concept quicker because the if you

learn how to walk a dog, um it would

eliminate 90% of the problems.

>> The other 10% will be rules, bounds,

limitations, right? That's it. Um so

when a dog is a pup he follows his

parents right and then he plays then he

explore but the first activity he learns

is to follow follow play play explore so

play and explore becomes like a reward

activities that's the chuck cheese time

right right and and so the follow is the

one they learn you know the rules

boundaries limitations they learn to to

stay focused and not get distracted

>> so naturally Early dogs they need to

learn to follow. When they go in front

of you, they are in the mind of a play

or explorer. But at the same time, if

you do this every day, the dog learned

that you he has to lead you two places.

>> And is that stressful for the dog?

>> If a dog is middle of the pack and back

of the pack, yes. If a dog is front of

the pack, no.

>> You see it? And so very important. In

order for people to have a front of the

pack dog, they need a lot of knowledge.

>> And so most dogs are perfect. uh middles

or back. The back should be the easiest

one. But when people don't do the right

thing with the back, he becomes fearful.

Uh the middle of the pack should be the

one for the families because they're

naturally happy golucky. But if you do

too much excitement, they become hyper.

>> You see it?

>> And this is a crossbreeds.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter if it's

a bulldog or a you know

>> litter is front of the pack, middle of

the pack, back of the pack. But it's

more back of the packs being born like

followers than it's only one per litter

a litter of the pack. So that's what

they call in the in the breeder world

pick of the litter. See it? So in a

litter of German shepherds only one it

can be a police officers. The other one

is pet quality or they call them the run

of the litter. Back of the pack

sensitive middle of the pack happy

golucky is the HR of the fam of the

pack. the middle of the pack, right? And

then the front of the pack is the one

that gives direction, protection,

>> ideally for a family or for a typical

domestic situation. I'm thinking United

States, but elsewhere because this is

going everywhere and uh this this

episode will go everywhere. Middle or

back of the pack.

>> Middle.

>> Yeah. A family who has never raised a

dog together. Yeah. Middle.

>> How can you assess the litter when you

see them so that you pick a middle of

the pack dog if that's what's

appropriate? Sounds like that's the

that's the goal. the front is going to

be very easy to uh to uh to assess

because he's going to be the biggest

one. He's going to be the one is moving

the sisters and the brothers away from

the mom, right? He's already going to

practice dominance. And then the middle

is is is is the second uh to get to the

mother and the back of the pack. They're

always wait.

You see, they're more shy naturally.

They're just sensitive. What if you

don't have access to the interaction

with the mother? Having gone to pick up

puppies a few times, sometimes you just

see the puppies, the mom's in another

room. Uh should you ask to watch the

interaction? And if you and if you

can't, uh how can you assess if you're

just looking?

>> No, normally if you're in a situation

the breeder knows because that's what

they put ribbons, you know, color

ribbons so they so they know, okay, this

is middle, this is their back. Even

though they don't call them that way,

they just call them round of the round

of the litter, you know, uh pet quality

front of the pack. And the front of the

pack is just the obvious one,

>> right? And so when um just go inside,

you know, where where where the puppies

are and there's no mother and nothing,

just stay quiet. And every time you

present something new, you're going to

see the more confident coming to and the

more happy golucky coming to and the

back of the pack, it doesn't get close,

anything new. It just can be a pillow.

And that's the first time they

experience a pillow. And the front of

the pack will go

>> and the middle of the pack will go and

play. It's hardwired.

>> There is a It's there. That's why you

can guarantee good behavior. Mhm.

>> Right. Because now you Okay, I want a

middle of the pack border collie. I want

a middle of the pack golden retriever. I

want a middle of the pack pitbull. You

can have it. You see, because that's

going to guarantee you exactly what you

want. It's going to be easier for you to

tell them what to do because he was born

naturally a follower

>> versus if you get a front of the pack,

whatever breed, Chihuahua, I don't care

what it is. They're born, you know, with

with the disposition of giving

direction, protection. So whoever human

wants to you live with them needs to

have more knowledge,

right? So that's me running a pack of

dogs and having different animals. The

animals know that I have a big energy.

They don't know I have 43 acres. They

just know I have a land and that you're

in charge of it.

>> Yeah. And all the ups and downs that I

went through and I have been the wars

that I go through,

>> right? The divorces and all of that

stuff. And I went through and and and

and I and I I'm I find my silence, my

calmness, my confidence, my love, my joy

right back. They know my energy is big.

Right. So So that I can have a front of

the pack.

>> But I don't have one. I have middles and

back.

>> Even you.

>> Even me.

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah. Because it will it will require so

much. I would need to find him a job.

>> You see what I'm saying? Like a like a

border patrol, something like that.

looking for for looking for the bad

guys. Like that would be a job. It's

just one officer and one dog. He doesn't

need the pack. Fascinating. I I'm sure

like many people listening, I'm trying

to figure out was Costello front of the

pack. I think he was um he's a enormous

dog. I mean uh even within his litter.

And um when I went to go pick Well, I

had met him as a 3-week old puppy. He

was the one butting all the other ones

out

>> eating from their food bowls.

>> He was

>> they clean. Yeah, he didn't yelp uh

didn't yap at all. He just ate

everything, right? Took everything, peed

where he wanted to, did everything.

>> So, there was a it was a difficult thing

raising him. This new one, Strummer,

who's 4 and 1/2 months, he's definitely

middle, maybe even back of the pack, but

he was second out when he was born, and

they said, "Oh, you know, he's going to

be the pick of the litter." They said

that, but definitely not. He, you know,

quickly it was clear that he kind of

kept a little bit distance. He is very

sensitive.

>> Okay, that's good. much sweeter.

>> Yeah. Sensitive.

>> Yeah. Much more playful.

>> And that's the part that I have to work

with because they enchant us, you know,

like I noticed with strummer, he can he

has figured out, you know, that if he

gets into play mode, it lights me up and

then I have to remember to stay in my

>> in my place, my proper place, because

I'm trying to teach him here, this is

the order of things. It's very important

because I want to bring be able to bring

him anywhere, leave him in a room alone

with little kids and trust completely

that he's not going to accidentally do

something. For people that want to learn

to sense their own energy, use their

energy field,

>> should they also be asking if they are

front, middle, or back of pack?

>> The human. Yeah.

>> Yeah. In the human world, this is

something it's a little bit of a

sensitive topic, right? Because every

guy wants to say, "Yeah, I'm an alpha,

not a B." Everyone thinks that way, I

like to think in different

circumstances, people can move up or

down the the the human hierarchy. I

mean, I work with a lot of scientists

and I can tell you in many environments

they they don't come across as alphas,

but you put them in a laboratory or a

lecture environment and I mean, they own

their space because that's their

expertise. So, it can move around.

>> But can you

explain what it is to observe oneself,

really think honestly about oneself and

where one really lies in this? Let's

let's call it what it is. It's a it's a

it's a hierarchy, but that makes it

sound like one is better. It just is

what it is. You're either front, middle,

or back of pack human.

>> That's the their special magic, right?

Being being back of the pack means they

master cal surrender. So we have to

learn to to master cal surrender. That's

our more sensitive state of mind. Right?

This so when I'm assessing and

evaluating a dog, I go into my calm

surrender state. So I go in the back of

the pack.

>> Right? When it's time for me to give

direction and protection, I go to the

front of the pack. when I achieve

whatever I need to achieve, I go into

the middle of the pack.

>> You see it? So, the human can can can uh

can take advantage of this position of

this of this state of mind, right? The

dog, the back of the pack dog is is

going to is going to tell you, listen,

I'm here to master calm, surrender. It

doesn't mean I don't do happy golucky,

>> but he can never do calm confident.

>> Back of pack can't do front of pack.

>> Never. Never.

>> And are we talking humans and dogs now?

if we're really transparent.

>> Well, it's just to have that fine line

between what the human can do, right?

Versus what the dog can't, right? So,

it's important to understand, you know,

that a dog is born with a position,

>> right? And the human can go from

whatever position he was born to

different positions, right? Because it's

a lot of, like you say, it's a lot of

scientist people uh who are who are very

brilliant on this side, but when it

comes to a dog, a dog takes over.

>> Oh, yeah. or even just at a coffee shop,

you know, they they sort of they they

become a smaller version of themselves.

Not because they're weak, it's just it's

not their domain of expertise and they

feel weak in that environment.

>> Correct. Or or they turn on one energy

more than the other one.

>> And so a lot of these people turn on

more the affection energy,

>> right? And a affection or love energy in

the animal world is not a strong energy.

>> Yeah. Tell me more about that because I

practiced on the your uh recommendation,

no look, no touch, no speak when I got

home. most difficult thing for people to

do. I think you know they get home and

the dog's like super happy to see them.

Tail is wagging. They're excited and I

I'm like I'm gonna ignore my dog. This

feels like abuse, right? You know, but

I'd come in, do my thing. It's And then

after some period of time, I be like,

hey,

>> and what I realized is

>> every time after that, I'd come home and

he was calm.

>> Yeah.

>> He was excited to see me, but he was

calm. Never jumping up and touching me.

Never jumping up and touching anyone

else. But if someone came over and they

were super excited, it almost would

confuse him. Like this is not how people

enter the space. Most people, I think,

have a very hard time not greeting their

dog with men and women squealing.

>> That's right.

>> It's great. And it makes the dogs

anxious. It causes problems in the

relationship.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Absolutely.

>> But I think most people don't realize

that.

>> Well, that's exactly you said it. you

know, I I don't want to ignore my dog

and I I don't want to like tell my dog

that I don't love him, you know, cuz

then the interpretation the dog miss me.

But, you know, every time you leave an

animal behind walls, the the animal is

going to go excited or anxious, right?

So, not always what you're greeting is a

happy dog. Most of the time, what you're

greeting is an excited anxious dog that

is confused,

>> right? So it's very important you know

when when people sees dogs greet another

dog there is no excitement there is

respect

>> you know and and they wait until the the

the front of the pack allows them to

come in they can't just come in into

their intimate space so it's a ritual so

it's three rituals that are very

important for people to master with no

touch no talking no eye contact one is

the meeting every time you meet a dog

always remind them about safe peace nose

eyes ears trust respect first and Then

is the walk the dog right next to you

following you quiet and then when you

feed. So those three activities are very

meaningful to dogs but all starts with

the meeting with the greeting. So every

time you reunite you have to remind your

dog that you are source of safety and

peace of trust respect of nose eyes ear.

dissect nose, eyes, ears for us because

I think most people because we're humans

especially in US and you know in

Northern Europe or wherever like

>> England

it's speaking

>> yeah there people are just speaking

constantly like hi hi hi you know

>> this is not the best way for to

communicate with a dog who you are and

what you're about and what the the trust

relationship

>> well it creates excitement right it

creates a dog that learn to greet people

with excitement so if you greet your dog

with excitement you are the source

to other humans. So, he's going to greet

all the humans excited. He's going to

jump on people. Not everybody wants a

dog that doesn't belong to them to jump

on them. So, but because you know that

let's say you do that, h your dog has

learned to welcome humans excited.

>> You see it? So, when a dog is born, he

borns with the nose open. 15 days later,

they open the eyes. 21 days later, they

open the the ears. This is

scientifically, right? This is in all

the encyclopedias. So that means a dog

met his parents through the nose then

the eyes then the ears you see but when

people wants to do ears eyes nose

they're they want to create a human they

want the dog to uh understand the way

you and I understand heyra how you doing

but we can control that excitement right

at le some people can't right

>> but uh so it's a different ritual for us

you know we believe in parties we

believe in parades

for a horse to go to New York is a very

excited place. It takes conditioning

because no horse will ever volunteer

going to New York. See, it has to be

conditioned,

>> right? Cuz you're bringing him to a very

excited environment with his instincts

say flight.

>> Recently, there have been these

problems. Sorry to cut you. I don't know

if you saw a couple of the carriages in

um Central Park took off. Someone was

killed recently. There's a whole debate

going on now whether or not this is good

or bad for these horses. But it's just

clear regardless of where one sits on

the debate that you can't take the

instinct out of the animal. There are

triggers that will send them over an

edge. Oh, you have to make sure that you

you you know you you keep eye on on how

is the spirit of the horse is the

instinct of of the horse uh healthy, you

know, is the spirit happy, you know, cuz

when they just go into the habit of

working, working working, even a police

dog can crash.

>> Mhm.

>> You see what I mean? Even a even a

police can dog can bite a police officer

because they overworked. I have a few

friends from the special operations

community. They work with these dogs

that jump out of planes, parachute, dol

Yeah, the Malininois. And

>> several of those guys have told me that

with those dogs, you cannot ever let up

your guard as the leader. In fact, a few

guys who got a little soft with them

just a tiny bit. Like one uh anecdote

was they decided to invite the dog in to

watch a movie with them one night when

they're on deployment or maybe they were

training, I don't know.

>> And he let the dog get a little too

close to him during the movie. The next

day he got bit

>> and it's like they're constantly trying

to move up the move up the hierarchy.

He's like, "It sucks cuz you you you

fall in love with these animals, but you

have to constantly keep the relationship

in its proper place or they'll not turn

on you, but they'll try and take your

position."

>> They don't try. That's the thing with

animals. They don't try. They just do,

>> right? There is no knowledge behind

instinct. It's all reaction. So, at the

moment your energy goes down, bam.

>> Amazing.

>> At the moment, so they're they're keep a

eye on your energy,

>> you know, and uh but at the same time,

you know, uh this kind of dogs are

always in a high level of excitement.

>> They keep them that way.

>> Yeah. They're vigilant.

>> They're they're keep them like like

that. They don't know how to turn it

off. So to create a great home family

dog or even if somebody lives alone,

it's no look, no touch, no speak in the

first couple of minutes of contact.

>> Yeah. Until the dog becomes peaceful and

calm and open mind. So surrender means

the mind is open.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. So once the mind opens up, you

can teach whatever you want such as

waiting, such as being calm.

>> What if somebody has an anxious dog

right now? They haven't been doing this

and the dog is pawing at them and and

running around. Should the person just

stay completely in that calm space

moving about and ignoring them touching

them or should they be physically giving

like you know get off me type thing?

>> Well, this this also had to do with how

how much exercise physically exercise

the dog has received,

>> right? How long is his walk? Cuz most

people walk 20 30 minutes. That's not

enough and the dog end up in the house

for 20 23 and a half hours.

>> In my opinion, it's borders on abuse.

It's really

incredibly hard on an animal that has

the same people say I love my dog

>> and and and my first question is how

long do you walk them?

>> What is your recommendation? I realize

it varies by breed and by age.

>> Yeah. And by level of energy because

some are couch potatoes, low level

energy, some middle and some high,

right? And so it depends on the energy

of the dog. So not because a dog is a

back of the pack doesn't mean they don't

have high level energy.

>> Okay? Because the sled dogs there is a

lot of guys that go on the back. It's

only one in the front if you notice,

right? And even in the back of the pack

dogs because they create a pack from

middle back, right? And that's what they

stay in that mode. And and so even the

back of the pack, they have to have the

same level of stamina as the one in the

front. So now because it's a back of the

pack is couch potato, you know. So then

then you have to understand uh the

levels of energy that they're born with,

low, medium, high. Yeah. So a lot of

times people say, "Oh, bulldogs are

couch potatoes." No, you can have a

bulldog that is absolutely athletic.

Absolutely athletic and has the stamina

to go and you know obviously you have to

help them with the breeding part and cuz

they they just go into you know no

limits and so you have to help them you

know

>> strummer has a lot of energy

uh compared to Costello. Um, so two

minimum 30 minute walks per day as as

much as a couple hours twice a day

>> with a backpack on, right? Obviously the

dog is a little older because you know

the backpack adds that extra half hour

cuz now the dog is carrying something.

>> So a weighted backpack.

>> Yes. And how should one assess like

percentage of body weight of the dog? In

the beginning, you can just put a

backpack cuz they're psychologically,

you know, they don't want to wear

anything. You know, nothing that we put

on them, they want to wear it,

>> you know, a leash, a collar, a muzzle, a

boots, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

So, psychologically that drains them,

right? Because they got to get used to

it. So, you you walk until the dog comes

surrender to it and then you take it off

and then the mind will become very

drained. Once the dog gets used to it

and then you start putting weight, you

can start with five pounds. Remember,

every time you add something, you

challenge the mind.

And the goal is simply for the mind to

surrender.

You see it? And and then the body the

body is going to become calm because

it's wasting energy. So your job

literally every day with a dog is to

empty the tank.

>> Empty the tank. You know cuz a tired dog

is never going to give you problems

ever.

>> True.

>> Ever. How? He doesn't have the energy to

give you problems. Right. And then on

top of that, you create rules by

limitations such as just put food right

here but you can't touch it. So the mind

has to be disciplined not to touch it.

Then the mind has to learn instead of

doing this to do this. And that requires

the self-discipline.

>> If you tell a dog don't touch it or

don't touch the human, don't touch the

food, don't touch the cat, they go into

a calm surrender state and they wait.

>> Yeah. The first thing that I taught

strummer um was to suppress action just

as a general theme. He learned it right

away um at 8 weeks. It took about a day,

maybe even half a day cuz I had learned

the hard way with Costello. He was much

more stubborn.

>> I could set food down.

>> Yep.

>> As a 8-week old puppy because we went

through the training process. He's not

touching it until he looks at me.

>> I can walk around the room. I can do

whatever I want. He's tracking. And then

when I say okay, then he's going to eat.

>> I will just mention there's a inhibition

from the forebrain down to the brain

regions that control impulses. And

that's what we call top down inhibition,

which is nerd neuroscience speak for

what you what you're describing

practically. And I feel like it carries

over to other circumstances more easily.

But I can put food in front of him now

and leave the room. I don't do this for

extended periods, but I come back, he's

not going to touch it.

>> Yep.

>> And then he he starts to eat.

>> Now, it's a little bit more difficult

with things that um like trying to teach

him to not uh be mouthy on. So, I have a

rule. No skin in dog's mouth. This is

just like it's all or none. Make it

simple cuz when it's really cute when

they're a puppy, those teeth are a

little sharp and then you can kind of

But I just have a it's a thick black

line,

>> right?

>> And my girlfriend knows this too. Like

she's like, "No, but he wants to play."

It's like no skin goes in his mouth.

Then he cuz that's a simple rule.

>> Yep.

>> And

>> if he does happens to, you know, go for

skin, I'll do the little Yelp thing. He

understands right away. So, if people

hear this, they're gonna be like, "This

is terrible, right? You're putting food

in front of him and he wants to eat and

you're not letting him." But could you

elaborate why this is so important to

the dog's happiness and well-being?

Because I believe it is, and I could see

that in Costello. I see it in Strummer.

There's a trust, there's a calmness,

there's an availability to go more

places,

>> but many people, they just like, "He's

hungry. She's hungry. They missed me."

you know, they didn't know what they

were doing

>> or they feel guilty because they didn't

walk the dog.

>> Guilt plays a big role in raising dogs.

>> Well, then let's stay on the walk for a

moment. What What is so critical about

the structured walk? I've been doing two

hours a day or so of structured walk

since he was little. And people say

that's too much for a puppy.

>> I I feel like he's been great with two

one-hour walks. It's because they forget

instincts, right? They forget instinct

that a dog is instinctually is going to

follow his parents to find food and

water, right? Yes. Uh they do it after

two months of age because otherwise they

will stay within the den, right? But

from from two to four, they follow, you

know, they follow and somebody's always

taking care of. You can see it in the

African wild dogs, there's always

somebody that supervises the litter, but

they allow them to follow, right? and

then they they they they go to a certain

stance because they're growing. But as

soon as the dog gets into six, eight

months of age, that guy wants to walk

more than 30 minutes, guaranteed. He

doesn't want to stay in one place too

long. So all these people with their

dogs home all day or some people say,

"Well, the dog has the yard, running

around the yard, it's not the same,

right? Uh being able to run around a

yard

>> with the yard, it becomes like the zoo,

right? Is an animal in the zoo with a

yard." But that's not natural. That's

just practical for the human,

>> right? And the human feels like, okay, I

have a backyard. That's where the dog

does exercise. But the dog is going in

circles. So exercise for a bird is going

for a fish. You know, a bird have to

fly, a fish have to swim, and a dog has

to walk. It's just the nature of each uh

specy, right? So the walk is the most

important activity in my eyes, right?

Look at the homeless people with their

dogs. Why? They can walk a dog off

leash. You were the first person I ever

heard say that homeless people are the

best dog owners.

>> And the humans who are blind, the human

who are blind dog is right next to them.

Homeless people dog in the back, right?

So what are they doing, right? Well, the

dog is following them, right? They're in

a follower state. Uh and so the dog the

the dog that lives with the blind is is

not allowed to get distracted because

his purpose is to guide the the blind.

And the dog that lives with the

homeless, he's not allowed to go in

front. Consciously or unconsciously, the

dog stays in the back. Nine out of 10

homeless people have a pitbull and the

dog is well behaved, off leash,

>> right?

>> I see a lot of them in my neighborhood.

This is Los Angeles. Incredible.

>> Incredible. Right. But in Mexico, every

single dog in a third country, every

single dog is off leash. So that's uh in

America the American dream for a lot of

people is is to have a dog walk off

leash because people pay a trainer to

train their dog to be off leash with

this is the nature of a you see it does

doesn't make any sense you know once you

hear it is you just have to uh help them

by practicing the ritual of no touch no

talk no eye contact let the dog be calm

surrender in front of you make sure

during the walk he's also in the same

state of mind and before you feed him do

this for at least three weeks Right? So

you get into this habit,

>> right, that when you greet, when you

walk, and when you feed. So then this

dog is going to have this beautiful

silence, calm, surrender. And this is

the dog you bring into dog parks or dog

beaches. And then your job is to make

sure that you uh the dog that your dog

is going to play with has the same

energy as your dog. You have to be

selective just like with kids, right?

>> Yeah. I don't bring my dog to dog parks.

I I used to.

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I've followed your recommendation with

Costello and also with Strummer. Uh,

exercise, discipline, and then

affection.

>> Body and for many people, you know,

they're going to hear that. I mean, it's

reflexive for you now, of course. um

this is your domain. Uh but they're

going to be like this, but they don't

want to walk first thing in the morning.

I want to cuddle with my dog first thing

in the morning. I mean,

>> my household now, I had to be really

clear like there if we don't follow

this, we're damaging the opportunities

for Strummer. We're we're actually

hurting his psychological well-being.

Yeah. And the only hard part uh with him

is he doesn't necessarily like to wake

up early, but sometimes have to walk him

early. So, it takes a little bit of

extra encouragement. The day always

starts with a walk,

>> then discipline training

>> and then food and then some affection,

but it's not hours of like cuddling on

the couch, right? It's like a, you know,

I mean, I love him. I would love to pick

him up and and treat him like a little

baby much more often than I do, right?

>> Uh, but I just see the incredible

results that come from this exercise,

discipline, and then affection,

>> which is living a natural life as love,

right? is we we want them to live as

natural as possible

>> and uh and and so that's love in in my

eyes like exercise discipline.

Discipline is not punishment cuz that's

a word that in the animal the dog people

when they hear the word discipline on

the dog they put it as punishment.

>> Yeah. They're think teacher hitting

them.

>> Yeah. Like you're punishing the dog and

no you're just making sure the dog

follows the rules by limitations. you

the dog follows a structure you know and

that's what we call discipline right and

and and that's how we achieve becoming

well behaved or achieving success

because we have to be disciplined

>> right and so a lot of times uh what I

what I end up helping people is

understanding the word so so the block

doesn't block the word doesn't block

them from doing the right thing

>> right which is your job as a as a as a

pet parent because now the title pet

parent right is is direction protection

than love.

>> Yeah. But most dog people want to do

affection, affection, affection. And

when it should be exercise, discipline,

affection, body, mind, heart.

>> I think the the walking part is so key

obviously. And I I'll just say it. Um

you tell me if you agree or disagree if

you want, but um I think most people are

just lazy. They don't want to walk. And

if they walk, they don't want to do it

without talking on their phone or

looking at their phone. And the dog can

sense if your energy is on the walk or

the energy is someplace else.

>> Well, you connected or you disconnected,

>> but you're in a flexi leash with a

harness on and you're in the phone.

Which are the worst.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, so it's it's it's the moment

where you are connected to mother nature

and through the dog, right? And people

now, you know, they see God is dog

backwards. All right. So, you're

connected to spirit and you're connected

to earth, but you can't be connected to

technology. And the phone is the same

thing is the phone is for connection,

communication, relationship. So does the

dog. Connection, communication,

relationship to God, to earth, to you.

And so then you create that triangle and

then the dog is inside that bubble, you

know. Oh, this human is really

respecting God. This human is really

respecting Earth. This really, this

human is really respecting the moment.

So you create this vibe, right? And the

dog is in a follower state. So he's

going to imitate the energy that you're

in, right? And and so what is prayer? an

imitation of everybody doing the same

energy.

>> I find it so fascinating that your

relationship to dogs uh has opened up

this understanding of human behavior but

not just how we behave but how we relate

>> to the the entire world like the

energetics keeps coming up in our

discussion. I feel I have other

practical questions but I want to touch

on something that you mentioned before

we started recording which is that in a

third world country

>> people are aware of death very early on

>> and so the connection to the spiritual

>> comes first and all the rest follows the

complete inversion of somebody like me

who was born in Northern California it's

like Silicon Valley they can call it

that then and you learn everything

through the the logical structures and

you know science science and my dad's a

scientist and but and even if one loves

poetry and music and things like that

which I do

>> the order is through the the sort of

like bricks on the ground first and but

there's no concept of death actually

until your grandparent dies or animal

dies or something. Tell me about this

relationship to death and how it

structures the the psyche and the energy

of people in third world countries

because it it's a direct outgrowth of

everything we're talking about because I

think it's going to be extremely useful

to people in regardless of where they

live in the world.

>> I think that's the first step, you know,

to learn not to be afraid of death,

right? That's the first step because

that's in in America, they don't want

nothing to die, but it's it's just what

it is, right? Bird life and death. So

it's just that's when in the Mexican

culture we have the muertos the day of

the death. So we learn to uh to be okay

with it. We learn to accept it because

you know in Mexico uh or to country

death is everywhere. You can see it

everywhere. You know I'm from the north

of Mexico and you see people with the

chop heads and hang up and you know you

go to school and people are is dead. So

what do you what do you end up doing in

that in this moment? Well, you end up

believing that God will protect you.

That's your spirituality, right? And

just like what I don't want a person to

break into my house, you get a dog,

right? And so that the mother nature to

protect you. So for us when when we grow

up that way, seeing death everywhere, we

learn to surrender to this higher power,

right? And we are what you believe, you

know? So it's it's is it's really good

you know in in our experience to to be

able to surrender to that but at the

same time we also surrender that

somebody's going to give us direction

protection love the same thing he's the

pack leader right and we just surrender

to that right and as well we surrender

to earth giving us food and taking care

of earth because it's a it's a it's a

combination of spirituality and

instincts in a third world country so

it's almost like people in third world

countries

place sort of they see the reality of

death early and they place themselves in

a a sort of hierarchy. They look upward

often times, not always, but often times

these are religious people, right? Um my

father's from Argentina and is a

Catholic country and

>> Latinos for for

>> by design we we are uh taught to uh

spirit first

>> and then second is mother nature,

>> right? Yeah. is number you know now

that's the like it's like an order and

then you have to go to work

>> right so job is number three

>> and then you have to love the family and

then love is at the at the end right but

it's God first earth second which and

then it's family or work well here in

the United States it's we're raised very

differently first

>> and it's also this idea that stuff is

the portal to

>> happiness right

>> having Lay's phone having access All

yeah, a lot of shoes. Shoes, bags.

>> I grew up with one pair of shoes,

you know, one pair of shoes and so we

grew up with very well nothing but then

so what how do we stay happy, right? How

do we stay happy? So it becomes like a

belief system, right? And so that belief

system it has helped a lot of people

that I know that are to stay happy. It's

just a happy people with nothing which

is the key, right? You first have to be

learn to be happy, healthy, loving,

smart with nothing. Then when you have

something and then you're already happy,

healthy, loving, smart, right? It just

adds into your accomplishments. But

animals don't understand money, fame,

power. Animals understand natural,

simple, profound. So that's the part

that I grew up in.

>> Natural, simple, profound. Natural is

your instinct. Simple as to love.

Profound is your spirit. Natural,

simple, profound. So even if you're not

smart, right, you can still be natural,

simple, profound and have an amazing

relationship with animals. Incredible,

right? Even if you're not, you don't

know how to read, you don't know how to,

right? You don't know where Europe is,

but you can still have an amazing

relationship with God and with mother

nature and with your family,

right? And therefore, if you're good to

those three, you're good to you. I used

to joke because I'd bring Costello to my

lab with me, a lab of about 15 people.

I'd walk in with him and and he'd go

around and he he liked walking into the

lab. He'd see all the students and

people working. He used to bring his toy

around to each of them sitting at their

desk to try and get them to play. You

know, he he was part of the lab and and

people really uh I like to think they

loved him. They told me anyway that

>> but I used to look at him sometimes I

think

>> he doesn't care that I'm the professor.

>> He doesn't care. That's the best part

about this relationship. He doesn't

care. He doesn't care even if we go home

at night. Sometimes I would sleep in the

lab back then. He doesn't care. He just

wants us to be together. He wants his

walks. He likes to be on things. And I

just realized he just kind of wants to

be around

>> the joy of a family, a laboratory. He

just wants to be part of this. And it

really helped me to just remove the the

>> the concept that he even knew what roles

were or jobs were. It was just this

place we went. I think dogs are a

wonderful way to look at the world

differently and realize

>> both how different we are as a species

but also all these things that we've

created like these are just human

creations and they're important jobs are

important obviously but but to not

project that onto him but also is very

useful to not project that onto

>> people in the world I'm not going to

point at any specific colleagues but I

knew people who were very who are very

prominent in their field and the way

they go into the

was almost like disappointed because

people weren't feeding them the

adoration that they felt they deserved.

But no one cares, right? Because they're

in their own experience. And I just

mentioned this because again, your book

and and these teachings of that that

we've been talking about uh today, they

they taught me a lot about like human

energetics. We're not dogs, so we can't

just transfer that in. But it it taught

me that like most of the time when we

think we're operating from a place of

like knowledge and roles and all this

stuff, there's something that's been

constructed by humans like a uniform to

show this person's in charge. They have

all the stuff that reveals their

accomplishments, the degrees on the

wall. You take that stuff away

>> and it's a very different kind of

interaction. Like who's this person?

Like what are they about? Like what

moves them forward or back? Are they a

good person or a bad person? Are they

scared? And it I think it's very helpful

if people learn to tap into this a

little bit.

>> You know, when I go to people's home, uh

the human tells you the story and the

dog tells you the truth.

>> Mhm.

>> Just by you looking at them.

>> That's it. The dog immediately tells

this is the energy we feel. This is the

philosophy we practice and this is the

actions we do immediately. The dog

always he's the most honest member of

your house. They don't know how to lie.

See it? They don't know. they don't know

how to uh to to do what we humans do.

They don't just just just don't right.

So it's I listen to the human because I

I need to understand okay where is this

human stuck right and then through that

conversation I go okay what about it if

we think of don't think of spirit think

about silence you like silence okay

silence is part of the spiritual world

and what about calmness uh calmness I

think I'm calm okay let's breathe and

then I I change the uh the instinctual

world just by just breathing right and

then I start giving the information so

the intellectual world is more simple

you know it's more clear with nose,

eyes, ears, rules by limitations. I'm

just giving this simple information,

right? So your mind knows how to

execute,

>> right? Uh and then when do I love hold

on just just wait

and and then when the dog goes

now that's when you love because I want

to teach people to love silence, to love

calmness, to love an open mind

>> because people have learned to love an

excited dog, anxious dog, a dog that

that was a victim, right? I said if you

rescue a dog and then the dog was in a

bad situation that person goes and

rescue dog because he feels bad and then

that same person start telling everybody

in the family what happened to that dog.

So now the whole entire family feels bad

for the dog. So when they describe the

dog they describe the past. So they

learn to love the past because they feel

sorry for this dog. So the dog now is

fearful controlling the house you know

has doesn't listen to the humans. At the

moment I grab the same dog and I bring

him to the ranch and I give them

silence, calmness and be part of the

pack. That dog changes. They live in the

moment. So really what happened to the

past to a dog a month ago, a year ago is

irrelevant. It's irrelevant. What's

relevant is how do you treat him now,

right? And the only thing they need to

to become good is is safe peace

environment. a trust respect human with

exercise discipline or or exercise

mental stimulation activities. Then the

love comes at the end. Safe, peace,

love, trust, respect, love, exercise,

discipline, affection. See, love is

number three is a reward,

right? It's a reward. How do you stay

happy? Well, and then you are grateful.

How do you stay healthy? You learn how

to breathe and do exercise. How do you

stay smart? Well, you learn, you

achieve, and you give it away. or you

learn to turn your mind off and then so

when do I practice love? Well, practice

love once you master your spirit, your

instinct and your mind. Then love that

thing about you, right? Love do love

those three things about you. Your

silence, your faith, your calmness, your

trust to you, and then your confidence,

your mind. Love that.

Can dogs smell stress? Yeah, feel

stress. It smells. But remember it's is

the feeling of the energy that you have

inside your electricity right you're

you're not functioning normal then that

same energy is going to create a

chemistry right then you're going to

sweat and I mean it's just going to go

into the nose eyes ears but it's first

is without the nose eyes ears just the

animal in them is going to sense when an

earthquake is about to come they sense

it way before it it it trembles you see

it so that energy of mother nature is

shifting at a such a high low level of

sensitivity, then then we see then we

hear things.

>> Humans are so obsessed with dog quote

unquote intelligence that looks like our

intelligence. Like if I see another

video of like how many words a dog can

learn or, you know, dogs doing tricks or

walking on their hind legs. None of that

impresses me. I also like sephopods

octopuses. I have a couple of them

actually and I'm fascinated by them and

people think they're extremely

intelligent and they maybe but I'm

interested in their intelligence. You

can find a video of a guy who taught an

octopus to play a piano. But if you look

at the training process,

>> it was just shaping, right? Reward this

and reward that. That video, I'll go on

record saying totally unimpressive to

me. It tells you far more about the

trainer's willingness to painstakingly

shape an animal than it does about

octopuses at all. Like it I mean I'm not

saying a an ant or a plant could have

learned to play the piano, but what he

did could be done with a horse if it

just had big keys. So it's there's

nothing interesting about this. But

humans, we seem obsessed with

transferring our

>> let's keep it to first world because

that seems aligned here. our first world

understanding of what intelligence and

knowledge is and skill is

and putting that onto other species.

>> And it it's crazy. It's crazy. It

doesn't reveal anything except our own

short-sightedness and and stubbornness

about being unwilling to think about

these other ways of communication and

moving through the world.

>> Well, is that that self-oriented first

versus pack oriented? You know, what is

what the pack needs versus what is what

you want, right? So that that is more

like where where when the human just

wants a a baby for example and they get

a dog. Humanizing a dog is a is it good

for the dog? No. Right. It's not good.

It's good for the human, you know. It's

good for the human fantasy and and uh

fulfillment

uh emotional fulfillment or whatever

thing they have in their mind. But is it

is it good for the dog to be a human?

Why would he wants to be a human? Why

they're not try trying to do the same

thing with a cat? Because what they say

is he's a cat. So you can't humanize a

cat. You see what I'm saying? So the cat

sends the human hell, right? Yeah.

Because a cat only comes whenever he

wants to come. So you can't influence

anybody who doesn't want to be with you.

Yeah. Right. The dog, you have to teach

him to live without you,

right? He has to learn to keep you

distant because he's a pack oriented. So

you you can influence a dog much quicker

than you influence a cat,

>> right? You can't influence anybody who

doesn't want to follow you. How do you

feel about cats? I love cats. I love all

animals, you know. I was going to invite

you to the ranch because we have all the

species and we can assess and evaluate

your dog better, right, with the

chickens and the dogs and the different

species. So so we can see the prey

drive, you know, and you can you you you

are going to be able to see, do you have

a dog with prey drive and how do we

block it, right? Or you have a dog with

play drive and you just leave it open.

Oh,

>> I'd love to bring Strummer out there.

It's a good place because your dog gets

to interact not just with dogs but with

other species that trigger that prey

drive. Very very important because what

makes your dog social is that he learns

to accept others. See I don't want a dog

that that that has a a protective drive

or I I'm not interested in that. Right.

I just want a dog that accepts

everybody. Yeah. And that's a dog that

is going to give you zero lawsuits, zero

liability, right? Because he accepts

everybody.

>> Oh yeah. I know people in California in

particular whose dogs um charged other

people lawsuits like it even if they

didn't bite it's that's a whole thing

>> and it can be a lot of it can be a dog

that was not meant for protection but

because he doesn't have rules by

limitations he doesn't walk and you know

every day the dog is bored confused or

frustrated and then he releases that

because he's a predator dog by nature is

a predator they're going to move forward

to release energy you see it so but you

want them to move forward with the right

state of fine, right? Or when you tell

the dog to move forward, right? That's

that's just discipline. But people don't

don't have that kind of understanding

and the dog end up doing whatever they

want. So the dog end up, you know,

putting people in a lawsuit, which

another another uh place where the dog

doesn't know, you get in zoo about it,

you know. So he's not gonna, oh my god,

we're gonna we're gonna lose money, you

know. So dog is not going to understand

that concept.

>> Yeah. We as humans we we project so much

onto other species, other people. And in

the backdrop of everything we're talking

about, I'm I'm hoping that people are

seeing the ways in which they can show

up in circumstances with more calmness,

>> especially if it's not reflexive. You

know, before every episode, I I pray I

do I I ask for certain things. I try and

open up certain things so that um I

realize not all of this is under our

control. That's my belief. and to try

and invite certain things in. So, it's

not reflexive. I do it as a you call it

a a discipline. I'm happy to do it, but

um I think people assume

that you're either calm or you're an

anxious person. People assume that their

dog is either calm or anxious. This is a

terrible misconception. I think we we

can become calmer regardless of where we

are in our natural levels of anxiety.

Our animals do not will never choose an

anxiety or be or live anxious life.

We're the only species that follow

unstable leaders, right? So to be the

pack leader in in the animal world, you

have to be the most patient, the most

calm, the most confident, the most

loving, the more joyful. Everything has

to be at 100%. Then you can be a pack