What's going on?

>> So, my like I have like a kind of broad

question and then we can go more into

it. So, how do people who are securely

attached distinguish between platonic

attraction and romantic attraction? How

do they distinguish between what they're

feeling for a specific

>> How do they distinguish what they're

feeling?

>> Yeah, I I think they distinguish what

they're feeling based on the quality of

the feeling itself. So, the core way to

become securely attached is to have

emotional mirroring during development.

Angry or let's say I'm crying or I feel

upset. My parents will come to me and

they'll be like, "Oh my god, with a

baby. It's so sad you left your little

bear, panda, whatever. Did you forget it

at school? Oh my god." So often times,

if you look across cultures, isn't true

for every culture, but for many cultures

around the world, you'll have

exaggerated emotional reactions from

adults. And when a child has an

exaggerated sees an exaggerated

emotional reaction, they are feeling a

thing, they don't understand what

they're feeling. and then they see it in

the face of of the parent. So the parent

has an exaggerated reaction of sadness

and then children tie these two things

together and that's how they know okay

this is what sad feels like. So they are

able to identify their emotions. They

know what they're feeling because

they're taught what they're feeling.

That's what makes someone securely

attached. So then what happens is if

they're in a platonic relationship they

will detect or the presence or absence

of certain emotions. And when they're in

a romantic relationship, they will

detect or not the the presence or

absence of other emotions, love,

attraction, playfulness, connection,

chemistry, and some of that is like they

kind of they get you and you get them.

There's a spark, there's a connection.

Does that answer your question?

>> Kind of. So, so context, I'm autistic,

so I'm pretty sure I have alexia. So,

for me, I've had moments where I could

be bonding with like my close friends

and I'll sort of get those like thoughts

of like, oh, am I in love with my friend

cuz I'll get like a welling up of

feeling, but it's like I don't want to

date my friend, I love them, but I don't

want to date them. This happens quite a

lot with me. And although I'm

consciously aware I don't want to date

them, it is still confusing as to it's

still confusing for me going forward how

to figure out if I have feelings for

someone, if I don't, cuz I know like

technically you can develop feelings for

someone that you're not compatible to

date. And it's like for me who struggles

with understanding emotions, it's like I

feel like I don't know how to embody the

difference of those feelings. Does that

make sense?

>> It makes perfect sense. First thing is

that you'll have relationships. These

can be platonic or like those aren't

defined, right? But you'll have some

sort of like literal connection with a

person. And then in that connection,

feelings will arise and you're not quite

sure how to interpret those. So there's

a part of you that's kind of saying

like, "Hey, I don't want to date this

person." And then you're kind of

confused because maybe you have some

feeling towards them that does feel like

love.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that fair?

>> Yes. Exactly that.

>> And then the way that you understand

that is okay. Sometimes human beings

have feelings of love for people who are

not appropriate to date. Right. So it is

possible that I'm feeling love towards

this person even a romantic love and my

head is telling me this is a bad idea.

So it's possible to be in love and know

it's a bad idea. But if you're autistic

and alexathyic, how do you know if this

is romantic love with your head telling

you it's a bad idea or if this is some

other kind of love and that's why your

head is telling you it's a bad idea? Is

that fair?

>> Yeah. Cuz I I feel like um from my

understanding of like relationships and

stuff, I feel like so many people their

relation their feelings are very clear

to them or they interpret their feelings

in a very clear way. But for me, no

emotion feels quite clear. That is

incredibly challenging. Being colorblind

to your internal emotional state makes

navigating human relationships

incredibly difficult. Have you had a

romantic relationship where you have

been in love?

>> Uh, yeah. I've been in love three times

in my life.

>> And what were those experiences like if

you're comfortable giving us sharing

what that was like for you?

>> Well, sort of the overall trend I've

noticed when I'm in love with someone, I

tend to um I'm monogous, so I tend to

desire exclusivity from them. And then

also the commitment piece. The first

relationship was actually really

challenging because we were both

teenagers and the person I fell in love

with was Polly or wanted to be Polly. So

me and him were dating, but then we also

opened up Polly so that he could date

other people. That eventually got too

much for me because I was just jealous

and I felt insecure. I wanted to be

monogous and closed. So we eventually

broke up. The second person after

>> Good for you.

>> Thank you. The second person after that

was a monogous relationship I had with

this girl. Was probably my healthiest

relationship to this date. There was

like no arguing. We got along really

well. long distance for context, by the

way. And then just about a year and a

half in, she just got depressed, fell

out of love, and like we kind of split

off from there.

>> Yeah, that yeah, it wasn't easy at the

time. The third person I fell in love

with was my first only unrequited love.

So, I had made friends with this guy and

I really quickly developed feelings for

him. He didn't return the feelings. He

tried to be friends. It just couldn't

work cuz I was just really hurt,

basically.

>> Sure. Loneliness is at an all-time high.

Sexlessness is at an all-time high.

relationships are probably in the worst

state they've ever been in the history

of humanity. And that's why I made Dr.

K's guide to love, sex, and

relationships. Let's talk about who you

should actually date. Falling in love is

sometimes one of the biggest mistakes

that you can make. You know, I started

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have like really good sex. Visit

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to learn more. Good luck out there,

mother. Y'all are going to need it.

Okay. So, that that's really

interesting. So, so then here's my

question. So, you seem to understand

quite well that there are times that

you've been in love with people. What is

the feeling that you don't understand?

Because it sounds like you've had three

times that you've felt in love. So, so

if you have three examples of being in

love and you know what that feels like.

Is there still some difficulty

translating that over to other

connections?

>> Yeah.

>> Because you can't tell if those two

things are the same.

>> Yeah. situation I was in that kind of

inspired this question is um last year I

was friends with benefits with this guy

for a couple of months and because we

were friends with benefits there was a

level of like just emotional support

intimacy.

>> Sure. Sure.

>> During that I started getting thoughts

of like do I have feelings for him? Do I

want to be with him? And it got really

distressing because I was I went in it I

went into it with the intention of only

being friends. So even the thought that

I could have different feelings stressed

me out.

>> I think that is going to be confusing

even if you're not alexathyic or

autistic. Have you seen our um video

about uh friends with benefits?

>> I have not.

>> So, this actually makes a lot more sense

now to me anyway, but I I have better

clarity on it. So, I I think the reason

that that can be particularly confusing

is because romantic love and the kind of

catching feelings for someone that

you're in a situationship with are

actually like qualitatively different

from a neuroscience perspective. So,

when you start engaging in sexual a

sexual relationship with someone,

certain hormones will turn on like

number one is of which is oxytocin. So

when you were in a situationship with

this person, would you guys cuddle, hold

hands, or spend the night?

>> Cuddle? Yes. Hold hands? Kind of. Spend

the night? No. But we had fallen asleep

together like once.

>> Yeah. So, so when you do those things

that will activate a certain form of

emotional bonding, right? So when

there's sexual activity and there's

emotional bonding, that becomes like

more difficult to navigate and more

difficult to understand. So you may not

have had that kind of dopamineergic. So

the the feeling of falling in love is

highly mediated by dopamine, right? So

we feel intoxicated. We have cravings

for these people. There's a lot of

behavioral reinforcement. The feeling of

that warm, cuddly, emotional bonding

love is mediated by oxytocin. So

probably part of the challenge here in

this situation is that you had some of

the love signals going on in your brain,

but you may not have had all of them,

but some of them are the love signals,

right? So love is not homogeneous.

Whereas usually what happens with with

human beings is when we fall in love

with someone, we crave them, we pursue

them, then we engage in a physical

relationship, then we end up cuddling.

So then all the signals come together

and that's what we call love.

>> Okay.

>> I don't know how helpful that is to you.

>> Sorry, when you say love, you mean like

love broadly or like the specific

romantic love? We're talking about

>> the romantic love, right? So So what I'm

talking about is falling head over heels

for someone. And and so if we think

about, you know, you're asking how do

they know if it's platonic love or

romantic love? And what I'm saying is

that romantic love is composed of

several pieces. And and this literally

is is because you're you're it sounds

like you're on the spectrum. I'm going

to define those pieces for you. Is that

okay? Would that be helpful for you?

>> So helpful.

>> Okay, let's define let's I'm going to

just define what love is. Okay. So we

can start with the Greeks. The Greeks

notice there's different kinds of love.

So there's aeros love which is like

being losing some of these terms but

there's sort of like what we call

classically being in love right so we're

consumed by someone you can also call

this passion there's a lot of passion

between us then there is also like a a

friendly playful kind of love so there's

like passion like oh like I want your

body and I want you to have my body and

like you complete me and I complete you

and then there's the playfulness there's

like the laying in bed naked and and

covering things and not covering things

and then poking and not poking and then

tickling and like that's different from

passion. There's a playful kind of love

with tickling. Then there is emotional

bonding, right? So this is not passion.

This is like you and I are bonded. We we

have a bond. We we we have common cause.

We're in it together. Like two people in

a trench in World War II and we're in it

together. There's also a love that is

sacrificial. Okay. So this is like you

know when you're in love like when you

have your partner it's like you would

take a bullet for them you will stay up

all night for them you would do this you

would do that your love manifests as

sacrifice right I would do anything for

this person that is different from like

you complete me and I'm tickling you

after we're laying in bed naked together

when we have a committed romantic

relationship often times all of these

things are happening together and the

reason that people don't last is that

they are not able able to transition and

get these additional types of love. So,

if there is passion, we're fine for the

first couple of months. When we add

playfulness to it, we're good for a

couple of years, but we're not willing

to sacrifice. So, I have my career, you

have your career. I'm not willing to

sacrifice for you. So, the relationship,

we parted ways amicably. It was intense.

It was lovely. We were bonded. It was

real love. But that sacrifice is not

there. That's why a relationship falls

apart. Other times, there is sacrifice.

There was passion. The passion gets

extinguished. Now the passion is gone.

Now the playfulness is gone. Now we have

two kids at home. No one's sleeping. My

hours are getting cut. You're not able

to work anymore. So now we're like

ground down. So there's sacrifice and

there's commitment, but there's no joy.

I just can't do this anymore. I love

you, but I can't do this anymore. Right?

We can listen to the reasons why people

break up and track them back to failures

of these different kinds of love. And

then there is loss of passion with

sacrifice. But the playfulness is still

there, right? And sometimes that can

sustain us when now I've got I've got

postpartum depression. I've got

postpartum problems with my hormones. So

my libido is absolutely gone. But there

is enough emotion. There is enough

sacrifice and there is enough

playfulness to where we can stay

connected. That survives the the

postpartum depressive libido crash. Two

years later, things come back. And when

they come back, they come back real

good. Right? So these are the when when

you say how does someone know what love

feels like. This is where people with

secure attachment do have an advantage

on feeling. But love is more complex.

This is why not everyone who is in love

and dates for one year and is good

together stays together because they

cannot graduate into these additional

kinds of love. And you kind of need it

all. Then there's a neuroscience layer

on top of this where passionate love is

mediated by dopamine. It's an addiction.

Emotional bonding is medi mediated by

oxytocin. Feeling comfortable with

someone is mediated by serotonin. I was

talking to someone recently who who is

was really happy with their current

partner and and I asked you know what do

you really like about them and they said

this is the first person I've dated in a

long time that I don't feel anxious

around. I just feel soothed when they're

around. That is serotonin mood anxiety

reduction. Mood elevation and anxiety

reduction. I just feel good around them.

It's not passion. It's not physical

attractiveness. not even emotional

bonding. This is a serotonin love. So

these these things don't map on onetoone

because a neurotransmitter is just a

chemical signal in the brain. Dopamine

also does smooth movement, right? So

instead of cog wheel rigidity, which is

what we see. So dopamine does way more.

But I I think when it comes to like, you

know, you catching feelings for someone

in a situationship, yeah, that's because

some of these neurotransmitters are

coming on. But there there's physical

attraction, there's some amount of

serotonin, but there may not be

dopamine, right? It could be more like

I'm frisky and you're frisky. Let's just

kind of like get our physical needs met

and then oxytocin kicks in. Does that

make sense?

>> Yeah, that does.

>> Yeah. So, one thing that I just want to

appreciate about your question is when I

work with people who are on the

spectrum, it requires me to stretch into

explaining things. And I think the stuff

that comes out of my mouth when I work

with people on the spectrum is some of

the best stuff that my brain can

produce. And there's something about the

way that people on the spectrum ask

questions that requires us to really

tunnel down and define and explain each

of these elements. And I know it's hard

for you. It [ __ ] sucks. At the same

time, I think that I am a better

psychiatrist because of people like you.

And I think that the answer that I gave

just now is maybe one of the best

answers I will ever give on Love on

stream. So, thank you for your question.

I'm not saying we're done, but I just

want to thank you for that.

>> Of course, thank you for answering it.

That honestly made my day hearing that.

Um, okay. So, what I'm what my little

autistic mind is understanding is just

that there are all these different

components to love. It's not just one

thing. So, you can have some turned on,

some turned off. And that's why emotions

can get kind of confusing basically.

>> So, the confusion comes because you have

like not mixed signals, but you have

incomplete signals. You've been in love

three times and those three times you

probably had some version of all of

these. But now what's happening with

friends of benefits is you've got like

two out of four of you got three out of

four and then you're like what is this?

And and by the way, you know, people who

are neurotypical are also hella confused

by situationships. So you're you're not

alone there.

>> I so I've been told.

>> Yeah.

>> I guess the last thing on this is like

so going forward if I'm ever in this

situation again. Not a situationship per

se, but trying to understand my feelings

really just asking those kind of

questions to myself like what signals

being hit here? Which ones aren't sort

of analysis or is that like

overthinking? I think it is it is

overthinking and it is necessary if you

are alexathyic. Okay.

>> Right. So the four questions I would ask

yourself going forward is do I crave

this person? Do I feel connected to this

person? Does this person elevate my mood

and lower my anxiety? And would I be

willing to take a bullet for this

person? Right? And if the answer to all

of all four of those questions is yes,

that is probably the best back of the

napkin equation for whether you know

whether you're in love. in love is just

dopamine but whether there is a there is

a sustainable complete sense of love.

>> Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

>> Yeah, thank you so much for coming.

>> Yeah, thank you.

>> Take care.

Do it.