Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Gentlemen, what's happening?

>> Joe, where do we begin?

>> Where do you begin? Let me tell you.

When I first came to Los Angeles in

1994, there was two places that I had to

go. One of them was the comedy store and

the other one was the Jet Center. And I

started training the Jet Center in '94

before you guys shut down because you

had the earthquake and you had the roof

damage. So I was there before that

happened. And I took your classes. I

took your kickboxing classes because I

remember it was very scary cuz you had a

bunch of gang members in there cuz you

were doing that like sort of outreach

program where you're helping young gang

members.

>> So I had a spar with gang members.

>> So I was training at the Jet Center

until it shut down and then I went

briefly when you guys reopened in North

Hollywood. I went to that place for a

little bit too.

>> Gym. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> But then I started training at Majiro

Gym which is in the in the valley. But

uh legends. You guys are legends, man.

>> Well, thank you, Joe.

>> True pioneers in martial arts.

>> For you to remember was was uh really

humbled me. You remembered. You

mentioned my my son and why I was

starting that.

>> Yes.

>> And you don't even know what it's grown

into since that day that you seen.

>> Well, tell tell the story about your son

and how that whole thing started. Well,

you know, unfortunately in some

communities

drivebys aren't uncommon.

And so when it becomes a generational

curse, you know, and and and and kids

are getting killed sometimes randomly,

um that happened to me. It came knocking

on my door in a valley that's got two

million people. Knocked on my door and

and uh I was just I was I'm going to put

it this way. I had a calling on my life

two

to do something about it because it

became a situation where where families

and community was like well yeah well

that's what happens in our community and

I was saying that is not what happens in

our community this is our community and

so I begin to move I begin to move

ironically with some churches that uh

there were that had that kind of

ministry in their ministry and march,

peace marches, etc. But uh my son got

shot while he was learning how to drive

a stick shift.

>> Wow.

>> And uh it took his life and and that's

not normal and that's not that should

not be common. And and uh so I'm still

at it.

>> You're still doing that? still going 36

years later, put a organization together

and real real some with real lived

experience, others with degrees and

really put together a whole uh nonprofit

that speaks directly to it where it's

at. And and uh so at the end of the day,

um yeah,

it's over when we say it's over, you

know what I mean? And and

>> and ironically,

what led the charge for me, Elise Joe,

was forgiveness.

The forgiveness that only God can give.

I got to tell it the way it is.

And uh that forgiveness ended up taking

me to the neighborhood that killed my

son. and we had a huge meeting in that

that neighborhood in the park and a

peace treaty kicked into place.

No mother's crying, no babies dying. So

to this day, I still

continue to press in with a whole

different

uh how would I say integrated service

delivery, but keeping violence in the

middle of it and dealing with it.

>> That's awesome. But but yeah,

>> it's and it's awesome that you brought

them to a place like the Jet Center

where they can learn discipline, learn

how to fight, build real confidence, you

know, learn real martial arts skills,

and also real martial arts mentality,

especially when it's coming from guys

like you, you know? I mean, I remember

when you knocked out Jean Eve Tero. Jean

Eve Tero was the [ __ ] man. He was the

man. Everybody was terrified of that

guy. And you, I believe you knocked him

out with a left hook. Is that correct?

>> Right leg, left hook. Yeah, the combo.

>> You know them old traditional shakan

sweeps

>> where you turn it over with the instep

and you know what I'm talking about

>> and you reset and come back with the

money.

>> Yeah.

>> But uh it was uh and he's a bad dude. He

went on to have a great career.

>> Amazing career. Yeah. I mean, he's one

of the all-time greats in kickboxing,

>> you know.

>> And you know, it's just I think it's

important for people to recognize the

the real pioneers. And Benny, you were a

real pioneer. I mean, there was no one

like you when you emerged. When you

emerged in the kickboxing scene, the

karate scene, there was no one like you.

And you know, you went undefeated and

you took on people of all sizes. And to

this day, there's amazing highlights of

you on the internet that people still

bring up because, you know, you were I

mean, you were fighting ties when you

had no training like that. You know, you

you were getting low kicked by those

dudes and still found out a way to win.

It's pretty crazy.

>> Well, you know, I tell you, it was uh

when my brother asked me, "Would you

want to fight to uh Tai, you know, and I

said, "What's Tai?" He said, "Muay

Thai." And I said, "I'll fight him." I

honestly I thought that was his name. I

had no idea what Muay Thai was at the

time. And so,

um, we we took it on. And

>> where was the first Muay Thai fight that

you had?

>> Matter of fact, it was at the Olympic

Auditorium.

um when we first fought Ernest Hart.

Yes. Ernest Hart fought the first uh

Thai champion and that was the main

event. And uh I tell you what, when I

first got kicked in the legs,

uh my eyes bulged out of my forehead. I

said, I mean, I I have strong legs, but

I've never had anybody try to break my

legs. And so it was a rude awakening,

but it was the best thing that ever

happened to me because he took me to the

streets. He really did because when he

started abling kneeing to my face and I

said, "Oh, you want to fight that way?"

Okay. I didn't understand it. I just

thought that all right.

>> Did you know what the rules were?

>> No.

>> That's crazy. So you didn't know they

were going to use elbows or knees?

>> No.

>> That is crazy. All I knew is

Muay Thai.

>> Norang Noi.

>> Nori was was the guy that he fought that

night.

>> Lumping stadium.

>> Yeah, he was a great champion as well.

>> Oh, without a doubt.

>> That's so crazy that you didn't even

know what you were in for. Like who who

was the promoter that set that up?

Uh, you know, actually, believe it or

not, my brother Arnold was asked, you

know, he says he was calling me the

world champion because in 73 it was

called Full Contact Karate. And Blink

and I, we, you know, we went to Hawaii

and no rules, no weight divisions, no

nothing. So for the

>> How much did you weigh back then?

>> 145.

>> Wow.

>> And so I end up beating actually

>> 160.

and and Blinky. There was four of us

left after we fought five, six times on

Friday and then we fought a couple of

more times on uh Sunday.

>> You fought two days?

>> Yeah, there was that many. No rule. It

was just weight division. I mean, it was

no weight division. It was just

>> brackets.

>> That's it. So, Blinkcky end up fighting.

There was four of us. I I fought Bernest

White and Blink and I told Blinky I

said, "You know what? this guy now he's

know you know he's 245 lbs Dana Goodson

6'3 and I said blinking

they don't want to see you and I fight

they want to see David and Goliath they

want to see me fight him and I said so

if you don't knock him out you're not

going to win cuz this guy they're

they're kind of you know wanting to keep

him up and

uh sure enough then and I said blinky If

you don't knock him out, you don't, you

know, hurt him for me. So, because I

knew I was gonna fight him next.

That's what That's what it was.

>> So, he was a 240 lbs.

>> Yeah. 245 pounds.

>> And you were 145.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> I You could pick him up and throw him

around. So, I I I got him tired.

>> So, what were the rules? There was no

rules at all. No rules.

>> So, could you stomp on the ground? Could

you soccer kick? Could you do all that?

>> You know what? There was no rules. I

actually threw him. I pinned him on the

ground. He started to roll me over. I

spit my mouth. I bit him on the chest.

>> Oh my god.

>> He pal strike my face. And we got up and

my my teeth markers on his chest. He

said, "You bit me." And I said, "I was

getting tired."

>> So, how did they did they have

submissions? Did anybody know

submissions back then?

>> No. Well, you know what? We we did cuz

we're we're we uh in judo, you know,

we're black belts and judo man back in

back in 60. We were already doing judo

and and Nick and I were already boxing

back then. So, we had a good idea of the

contact.

It's just there was no rules at the

time. No rules, no weight divisions. It

was just elimination.

So, that happened for almost two years

from 73 to 75.

And then it started that's when I first

heard of Muay Thai.

>> Are there any of those no rules fights

available on video? Can people watch any

of those fights?

>> Absolutely.

>> Are they online?

>> No.

>> Where are they?

>> Actually, there's some, but you know

what? Uh

>> we're doing a actually I'm uh doing a

documentary and we're bringing a lot of

I have film from 69 to 96. I'm 2

millimeter, Miller. Yeah. I mean, I'm

talking about bait him out and they're

actually putting together old fights.

So, you'll see Blink and I way back then

uh fighting uh Black and White. And then

this

>> Well, there's some available online that

are So, this is you against how do you

say that guy's name?

Kayat Bandit. Nagaroni. Kayat Bandit.

So, is this another Muay Thai guy? Yes.

>> Yes.

So was this after you had fought Muay

Thai already previously?

>> Yes. Uhhuh. Because I started to

recognize what it was about.

>> Mhm. So how many Muay Thai fights had

you had before you fought this guy?

>> Two.

>> Two. So when you trained in this like

when So after the first fight, did you

bring in a Muay Thai guy to train with

and explain you elbows and show you how

they're throwing their techniques or how

did you how did you learn how to deal

with these guys? basically uh somebody

had black and white with filming and I

kind of looked at it and I went to an

old gentleman that used to do uh uh

actually do clothing and shoes and so

forth and this leather shop and I asked

him I said I want to protect my shins.

He old older man and I said I want to

protect my shins. you have something and

and he brought out some pad and I said,

"Yeah." And I told him, "I want to put

it around my shins." So, I I created the

first uh shin guards.

>> You were the guy who invented the shin

guard. Yeah.

>> Oh, that's great.

>> And I told him, "How do we keep it

together?" And he said, "And he's the

one that brought out the Velcro."

>> Ah.

>> And so he put on he uh he sewed on

Velcro on it. And so I ended up asking

him, "Can you make more of them?" And I

started giving to it. That's how because

we were doing uh we were doing leg

checking because we were watching them

but it was hurting us like

>> what the heck.

>> Yeah.

>> You know how did they do it? And then

>> so you were you guys were doing a bare

shin.

>> Yeah.

>> So bare shin leg kicking training hard.

>> Yeah.

>> That's so we didn't know any other way.

>> So what were the ties doing back then?

How were they protecting their shins?

>> Well, you know what they they have spray

numbing spray.

>> They were spraying their shins

lidocaine. Yeah. They were putting stuff

that kind of like you couldn't they

couldn't feel it.

>> They couldn't feel uh the impact.

>> So after you invented shinuards, is that

how shinuards made their way to

Thailand?

>> I'll put it this way. When I went to

Thailand and to work with some of the

ties, I looked at them. I said, "Oh,

they're finally because they didn't have

them." I said, "Oh, you got shin guards

here." And I was surprised. Ah,

>> and but a lot of them didn't even use

them still. And some of these uh high um

up in the hills, the way they train,

>> they didn't train with shining guards.

They just sprayed their shins and Oh my

god.

>> kick banana trees.

>> Yeah,

>> I've seen that. I've seen bull cow

kicking banana tree and cutting it in

half.

>> Yeah.

>> See, the the problem with that is I was

talking to Blinky. I said, you know, we

got a lot of uh nerves on our shins. And

I said, and so we had a we had a doctor

that was one of our students, and I

asked him about that. He says, once you

break, you know, you you tear all the

tissues and the nerves of your shin. He

said later on it will affect you. This

is the reason why I started designing

>> so we can

>> uh and I mean these were like homemade

>> shining guards.

>> So did you ever work out with a a Thai

man like a a Muay Thai fighter who was

showing you how they do the techniques

or did you only learn it from film?

>> I only learned from the film.

>> Wow.

>> Was there any Thai guys in LA at that

time?

>> No.

>> Wow.

>> At that time it was there was none. When

was the first Muay Thai gym started

opening up in LA?

>> Wow. It's hard to remember because we

weren't tracking with them. We were just

figuring out how to fight them, right?

>> And give them Whoops. give them like

lateral movement because everything was

linear, right?

>> Everything was linear. So the American

side of kickboxing, so it, you know,

obviously you had more hands

>> and but they would clinch. Once they

clinch, they nullify that. So we were

just making adjustments along the way,

>> especially in Japan. This is basically

when we really started because they

started bringing us back there one right

after another. They started bringing us

back there after uh I you know I took

their belt and they couldn't believe

Americans just went in there and took

their belt from them and they didn't

they didn't like it. They didn't want it

and they kept having us come back taking

that trying to take that belt back

>> in Japan. In Japan never happened.

>> Wow. Wow. And you got to realize like

back then this is like post Bruce Lee

movies.

>> So martial arts had exploded. Karate

exploded worldwide. Everybody wanted to

learn martial arts. And Japan was kind

of at the forefront of the kickboxing

movement, right? because they had they

had had a bunch of Muay Thai guys fight

Japanese guys and the karate guys lost

to the Muay Thai guys and then they had

to adjust and then they got rid of

elbows and created kickboxing because

they wanted more excitement. They wanted

to get rid of the clinch and get rid of

the elbows and so and then K1 was formed

out of that.

>> That's right.

>> It's like you're like really like

patient zero like you know what I'm

saying? like the real mixed martial arts

movement really began with you guys.

>> True.

>> It's um

>> Yeah. You know, I was going to say, you

know, there there was a there was a

phase there because you mentioned Chuck

Norris earlier that he raised money in

Detroit and he had done Into the Dragon.

>> Mhm.

>> So, you he had that notoriety and he had

a cattle call. So fighters came from all

over Southern Kell to his dojo in Santa

Monica and it was it was single

eliminations to the knockout to see

which five guys would represent LA. And

the same was going on in New York, the

New York Dragons, Detroit, the Detroit

Dragons, DC, the DC Dynamos, and and

then the the the Texas Gladiators. Those

were the teams people were vying for,

and we we participated. and I end up

becoming the middleweight starter. Benny

was the lightweight. And then Steve

Sanders, who was the old name in

traditional karate, three of his guys

from the Black Karate Federation,

Ernest, Mad Man, Russell, Danny

Ferguson, Sugar Bear, we were the LA

team. And the what what's crazy is that

you won as a team. If you went out there

and knocked the guy out or you got

knocked out, they got 25 points.

>> Ah. and and so it was accumulation of of

points that you would get $1,500,

but the losers got 700. So So that so

that took off and the last uh tournament

or fight show that they had was at at uh

in Detroit

and and after that that's when you know

things started going another direction.

But it's just interesting

>> the way that it evolved,

>> right?

>> Have you have you ever heard of the PKA?

>> Yes, sure. Okay. So,

>> the PKA started with Don Quin, Judy

Quan. They But only

>> that was from the waist up,

>> right?

>> And only because they were protecting

Bill because he didn't like getting

kicked in the legs.

>> Superfoot. Bill Walls.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> And so in that,

>> so that's why they decided not to have

the legs kick cuz Bill only had one good

knee, right? He had one knee that was

messed up, which is why he only threw

like left kicks.

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>> Yeah, but nasty though.

>> Yeah, it was just predicated upon that.

But they just waste down. See the fight

with Johnny Terio, he was a you know,

>> you know, waist down, no no kicks. But

there was a sanction by the WK that

allowed leg kicks, leg sweeps, and

that's how I was able to set them up

with that. But but at the end of the

day, I mean, uh Yeah. I mean,

>> so when you say leg sweeps, you were

allowed to kick below the knee.

>> Yes. Interesting. You could kick and and

I would set him up with the kick between

the ankle and the calf.

>> Well, what's interesting now is like

that is one of the primary weapons of

MMA now is the calf kick. It's

interesting, right? Like cuz people kind

of slept on the calf kick for a long

time.

>> Well, people that are dancers, they like

to dance in the ring.

>> Mhm.

>> You went for the calf and they were

flatfooted and they couldn't dance no

more.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you want to stop somebody that was

dancing, you go right for the calf and

they become flatfooted. But if you you

had some people that were had good right

hands, you kick them in the thighs, they

couldn't lean on that front leg to hit

with a right cross. So there was there

was a really a method of of uh combat of

warriorship in there that we we

developed over the years that we knew

how to take power from the from our

opponent.

>> It's just crazy that it took so long for

MMA to recognize the potency of the calf

kick because you know I talked to Daniel

Cormier who was a two division world

champion. I talked to Michael Bisping.

Michael Bisping became a middleweight

world champion. never got calf kicked

his entire career cuz the calf kick kind

of emerged after he became a champion.

Now, what's really interesting is what's

happening right now. So, in kickboxing

and in Muay Thai, people thought, "Oh,

the calf kick doesn't work there because

the ties know how to block it." Well,

the Japanese fighters, the Kyokushin

guys are now dominating some of the Thai

guys because they kick calves. There's

this bad [ __ ] from Japan named

Yuki Yoza. And this, you know who he is?

That dude is lighting these people on

fire because he's just constant

combinations and chopping at the calves

and chopping from the inside and the

outside with every combination and he's

crippling ties to the point where they

can't move and they're getting beat up

and knocked out. There's another guy,

Masaki Nori, and he's doing the same

thing. and he beat just beat Tawwen Chai

who's like one of the best Thai guys and

the way he beat him was brutalizing his

calves just kicking the inside of the

calf, the outside of the calf, stopped

all the movement and then caught him

with a left hook.

>> Yeah. And and that's why for me at least

going into that fight with Bill Wallace,

it was like it if you're not kicking

calf, thigh, body, and head, it's not

international, right? Cuz everywhere

else in the world, that's what they're

doing.

>> Cuz you guys already experienced that.

Whereas a lot of the karate guys, they

hadn't they hadn't they hadn't

experienced that yet.

>> So the fight with Bill and I was the

first live broadcast on CBS Sports

Spectacular

>> to air.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. So and and and the irony, you

know, and it is what it is. Look it I I

get it. I think any any fighter, any any

champion f just a fighter period rather,

you know, get knocked out than get

robbed,

>> right?

>> Knock me out. You know, if you do, do do

it. more power to you. But but so then

you know that that was kind of what

lingered lingered within there and there

was a time we were almost going to

rematch and it didn't happen. But at the

end of the day uh the fight with Joe uh

excuse me uh what's his name? Oh my god.

I'm having a senior moment. Joe,

>> you don't have those though. Jo soon

enough. Yeah. But Johnny's Tero, you

know what I mean? That was the

difference in that fight that I could

kick the calf.

>> Mhm. And so when you got a money move

that you've developed over the course of

time because we were Kempo Shodakhan at

first and you know Kemple you had little

flash but with the shakan it was front

kick it was right leg sweeps like that

and so I was able to utilize that

technique and it worked for me to come

back with the hook the way I did but at

the end of the day man it's been a long

journey from there. M it really h well

we got to see some glimpses of guys who

were skillful with leg kicks fight guys

who didn't know what to do with them and

then their progression because a good

example is Don the Dragon Wilson when he

fought Dennis Alexio right

>> Dennis Alexio was a scary man who's a

destroyer and back in the day when

Dennis Alexio was fighting it was all

above the waist stuff and then he agreed

to a below the waist kick with Don

Wilson and Don Wilson just took his legs

away he just kept kicking I mean Dennis

Alex was a tank tank. Man, that guy was

a powerhouse.

>> We knew him.

>> But Don Don just kept chopping at those

legs and chopping at those legs and

eventually Dennis could barely move.

>> Yeah. Actually, uh Dennis ended up

fighting one of our fighters.

>> Well, was it No, no, it was uh not

notice. It was uh

>> um

>> I uh anyway, you was from Australia and

>> Stan Linus. Sanj

the thunder from down under.

>> Yeah, I remember that dude.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I think he broke Dennis

Alexio's leg.

>> His his femur.

>> Yeah, he broke it with a leg kick, which

is

>> Yes, he did.

>> So, and

>> Yeah, there it is.

>> Boom. Right there.

>> Right there. He

>> I think it was in Hawaii.

>> I think it was his lower leg.

>> Was it?

>> Seemed like it was his lower leg. Yeah.

>> Right here. Boom. Yep. He checked it.

Oh, yeah. You see it buckling. Oh. Oh

god.

>> Was that Dennis Alexio's last fight?

>> That's the last time I've seen him fight

>> because I mean, how do you Most guys

when that happens, it's over. That's

crazy.

>> So Stan the Man came to stay at the Jet

Center for a while. So he lived he lived

in town with us uh for quite a while.

>> My Yeah. My friend Shuki Ron from uh

Majurro Gym said that he was training

with Stan Lojinz and he said he got a

hip replacement because Stan Ljinz was

kicking his legs so hard with the pads

on, you know, where they hold this the

shield.

>> He said he had to get a hip replacement

from getting kicked that hard.

>> How crazy is that?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, back then it it was

>> not how hard you hit, it was how right

you were hitting.

>> Sure.

>> And that and he

>> Yeah,

>> man. when he hit he hit that target

right on the money.

>> Well, it looked like Dennis was trying

to check it and he didn't turn.

>> Oh, yeah. Well, I mean the the

>> uh even the impact it was the way he

shot the impact.

>> Just sheer power, too. I mean, just

right on that right on that shin bone.

>> Crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's But the thing

is, unfortunately, what happened was PKA

karate became a thing was remember you

had to get a minimum amount of kicks in

every round. eight eight kicks per

>> you had to do math while you're

fighting.

>> But it was also

>> I'm sorry.

>> A lot of the guys were not good kickers.

And so what it became is guys who

weren't that good a kicker and then they

would box and it was kind of sloppy

boxing. And so it lost a lot of the

appeal to the American public, which was

unfortunate because if they just allowed

low kicks from the beginning and we got

to see the guys from Japan, we got to

see the guys from Thailand. We got to

see you guys do all your thing, it would

have probably flourished in America and

been as big as MMA. because this is

something that I've been trying to push

with the UFC because you know one

championship fight they do a real good

job with it where they have they'll have

Muay Thai fights, they'll have

kickboxing fights and they also have MMA

and they also even have grappling

competitions. But I've been trying to

say to the UFC like if you like a lot of

times people boo when people go to the

ground. Well, here's a solution. Have

some fights where it's just standup

fights. Have some fights MMA gloves Muay

Thai rules.

you know, where you don't go to the

ground like have that. I mean, it would

be incredibly exciting and have, you

know, like or you could even do a whole

promotion of it. But

>> in America, unfortunately, kickboxing

because of the PKA in what they call it,

the kick of the 80s. Remember back then?

That's what they called it, right? PK

karate, the kick of the 80s.

>> That's right.

>> Brad Brad bad.

>> Bad Brad Heft. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, there was there was a lot of guys

that were really good. Uh Jerry Trimble,

he was really good.

I met him once on a set. I think we did

like a commercial together or some [ __ ]

I forget what it was, but I met him when

he's been doing a lot of acting,

>> but those guys were really good. Of

course, Rick Rufus. Rick Rufus was

outstanding and he changed the course of

his life from fighting a tie, too. Well,

he got broken down by that one tie dude.

That's right.

>> And had to learn leg kicks and had to

learn what that's all about. But if they

had allowed that on TV from the

beginning, I think PKA karate would have

been hugely successful.

>> You know, the and the PKA because of

Bill Wallace. It was from the waist from

the waist up.

>> And so my brother and Howard Hansen

started the WKA, World Karate. And

that's why we went to Japan and we

started saying everything went because

in Japan elbows and knees and so forth

because they're Muay Thai fighters over

there and I figured okay

>> then to me there's no rules. Let's go.

>> It's interesting because in K1 they

eliminated the elbows. That's right.

>> They just wanted less cuts. There were

like too many people getting cut and

fights were getting stopped from cuts.

That's right. And we just want more

action. But you know the really purpose

of that is because you know uh the

insurance behind it I mean people were

getting I mean I'm talking about just

their lips open up across their eyebrows

and I mean they were getting from the

elbows like

>> they were like

>> axes going across your face you know

with elbows and so forth and brutal.

>> But the but the tie they they wanted to

catch you with the elbow cuz they wanted

you to bleed cuz the fight's over. M

well they're so good at slicing across

those elbows

>> that downward angle and that's what

really cuts you open especially to the

forehead and the forehead bleeds like

crazy

>> you know it's it the one decision to

benefit Bill Superfoot Wallace probably

screwed over kickboxing in America kind

of crazy because then Bill Wallace

became the first commentator on the UFC

>> is that right

>> which is ironic the first commentator on

The UFC is Bill Superfoot Wallace.

>> I'll be ding.

>> Which is crazy because like this is no

rules, Bill. This is like this is rules

are completely out the window.

>> That's right. That's right.

>> It's a It's very unfortunate because I

think um the development of kickboxing

in this country has been stagnated, you

know, and it had a it had a shot for a

while with Glory. Glory was doing really

well in America. They had Last Man

Standing in LA. Remember that?

>> Yeah. Absolutely.

>> Oh, a crazy event. amazing event, but

for whatever reason, it just didn't take

hold. It was so exciting, but it just

never they had it I believe they had it

on Spike TV for a while. It just for

whatever reason, it wasn't promoted

correctly or it just didn't catch with

the American public and I genuinely

don't understand it.

>> Couldn't get the sponsorship either,

Joe.

>> Yeah.

>> You know,

>> but it's with the views come the

sponsors,

>> right? And it's really just about

presenting a package together and making

it exciting for people. See, the thing

is with the UFC in America, the UFC is

so popular that if the UFC is coming to

town, everybody's going to go see the

UFC. Every time the UFC is at Philly or

Houston, it's like, let's go. And you

get tens of thousands of people want to

come out to see the UFC. But with

kickboxing, you got to sell it on these

people. You got to sell it to them. And

it it hasn't been sold properly yet. But

the thing is, the product is there.

There's great strikers out there. Like

for Jamie, pull up a clip of Yuki Yoza.

This cat freaks me out because like his

combinations, man. He's so lethal. And

it just You see guys who just don't know

what to do with the fact that he's

taking away their legs like right away.

He does this weird thing too where he

like hooks their legs too.

>> Mhm.

and throws great boxing combinations,

too. But it's like everything is just

constantly chopping at the inside of the

legs.

>> He throws high kicks and everything.

It's just And he's just brutalizing

these dudes.

>> Mhm.

>> And it's constant. No matter what he's

doing, he's chopping your legs, taking

your legs away, going inside, going

outside.

The kid's very good. And you know that

Kilkushin background, you know, you guys

know as well as anybody. It's such a

brutal style and they have to learn

boxing afterwards because the kilushin

competition is all punches to the chest

only. But look, if you can learn how to

kick, you can learn how to punch. It's

just a matter of putting the time in.

And this dude is putting the time in. He

does this sneaky thing, too, where he he

throws a low kick and then he hooks

their calves and it works even on the

ties.

I mean, just when you see a Thai getting

his legs destroyed by a Japanese, you

realize, wow, this sport has really

changed.

>> That's without a doubt. sport. It's It's

this one of the cool things about combat

sports is that you see a new person rise

doing something different and when they

do, everybody else has to sort of catch

up and then the the techniques evolve

and you see everybody rise to the level

of whatever this person's at and

recognize that there's new techniques

that people are using because, you know,

martial arts has evolved more since 1993

to 2026 than it did in the last 10,000

years. And it's really because of

exposure and because people like you

guys went out there in the early early

days and laid it all out on the line to

find out because when I started doing

martial arts was 82

81 or 82 and back then no matter what

you 81 no matter what you did you

thought your style was the best and no

one really knew you know if you did

karate you thought karate was the best

if you did taekwondo that was the best

and there was no competition. ition

where everybody went together that we

knew of other than we heard about your

fights that you guys had in Hawaii.

Everybody heard about that was like

legendary. Like Benny and Blinky went on

Hawaii and they fought everybody. No

rules. Like no rules. Who won? But we

figured, oh, the strikers won. Striking

is the way to go. It has to be like the

best strikers won. But then you watch

the UFC like, "Oh geez, what are they

doing?" Like what is this Brazilian cat

who's strangling everybody with a ghee

on? This is nuts. And it changed martial

arts again.

>> Mhm. But, you know, everybody's looking

for the next uh biggest thing and so

far, you know, I mean, where do you go

from there? From UFC where you can

throw, you ground in pound and so forth.

When you do technique

standing, everybody sees it, but when it

goes to the ground, everybody's looking

at the monitor because they can't see

nothing,

>> right? And so a lot of people were

thinking it's boring, but they didn't

realize there was a skill on the ground,

but nobody seen it and it looked boring.

But when you got up, so they were paying

some of the fighters to stop the

opponent standing.

>> Yeah.

>> Instead of going to the ground.

>> Well, there's a lot of promoters that

definitely encouraged fighters to not go

to the ground.

>> Yeah.

>> And discouraged them when they did go to

the ground cuz they knew they could take

a guy down and just hold him down and

beat him up a little bit and win. And

the promoters is like, "We're not

interested in you." Which I think is not

fair because it's all about fighting.

And if a guy can hold you down, you have

to figure out how to get up. And if

otherwise, we're pretending. We're

pretending these techniques work.

Because if a guy is like a world class

wrestler, some division one

all-American, he takes you down, holds

you down. You got to figure out how to

handle that. Otherwise, we're lying.

Because the sport is about combat. It's

about fighting. It's the sport of

fighting. fighting is a man that can

hold you down. If he could hold you down

and beat you up, why is the referee

standing you up? Why is the referee

giving you an opportunity to fight back?

You have to figure out how to get up.

You have to figure out either how to

submit him off your back, sweep him, or

stand up. Those are the options. A

referee standing you up because the

crowd's booing. That's crazy.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, that's really true, though.

It's uh I I think that the crowd, you

know, they're they want to see action

and they can't see it on the ground, but

they don't realize there's a lot of

action going on the ground,

>> but they don't see that.

>> They want to see, you know, it's almost

like everybody at a car race. They want

to see the racing, but they they want to

see a car crash,

>> you know, and I I don't understand it,

but they want to see the car crash.

>> They want to see something happen. They

want to they want to get excited. That's

casuals, you know. You the casuals are

the ones that boo when the fight goes to

the ground. You can't change the rules

for the casuals. True,

>> you know, but there's that's the problem

when business gets involved in sport.

Yes.

>> You know, you start altering the rules

to make it more businessfriendly, which

I just don't I don't agree with. I just

don't think that's the way to do it.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, when you you're talking about

warriors, you you know, you you're

talking about training samuris.

>> Yes. They're trained, hey, to actually

get in there and do their job and back

away.

>> Yeah.

>> But again,

you know, right now the promoters,

>> a lot of the promoters are looking at

how can I fill my seats.

>> Yes. How, you know, they don't they

don't care about the fighting. They care

about how can I bring Okay, he's

popular. He'll bring more people in the

seats.

>> Yes.

>> And that's all they're looking at. Well,

it was my job in the early days of the

UFC when it first got on television to

explain to people what's going on when

it hits the ground. So, it was my job,

you know, back in I started working for

the UFC in 2001. Well, I started in 97,

then I started again in 2001. And very

few people other than martial artists

understood jiu-jitsu.

>> You know, I had been training at Carlson

Gracies and then by the time 98 came

around, I was training at John Shak

Machado. So, I was training every day.

So, I I knew jiu-jitsu and I and so I

had to explain it like I was sitting

next to my girlfriend like, "Okay, what

he's gonna do now, he's gonna throw his

right leg over the side of his neck and

he's going to trap that arm. Okay, now

he's [ __ ] Now he's in trouble. Now

he's going to hook that leg under his

ankle. HE'S GOT THE TRIANGLE. HE GOT THE

TRIANGLE." AND I I HAD TO get people

excited about it. Like I was excited

about it, but also kind of talk them

through it because they didn't know what

was happening.

>> You had to explain like why are his legs

wrapped around that guy's neck? This

looks gay. like what the hell is going

on, you know, like what is this? And you

realize, no, he's cutting off the blood

to his brain with his legs. And they're

like, whoa, that's nuts. You're like,

right,

>> that's what Mel Gibson did to Gary Buucy

and Lethal Weapon. They're like, that's

crazy. It works. Like, yeah, that's a

real technique he learned from Hory and

Gracie.

>> And so the early days was a lot of it

for me was about kind of explaining to

me what to to people that are at home

what was happening and talking them

through it. Like that was the main part

of my job once the fight got to the

ground. Now everybody understands. Now

everybody knows what a choke hold is.

Everybody knows what a armbar is.

Everybody knows. So now it's just about

explaining whether or not he's in danger

or he's free, where the elbow is, where

the knee is. And it's just kind of

letting people know like whether or not

he's okay or not. But they know what's

going on. Now

>> even though they know what's going on

the ground, they still want to see him

get up. You hear the crowd

>> get up. You know this.

>> There's nothing like a knockout. And

there's nothing like a headkick

knockout. Headkick knockout is the

ultimate. When someone lands a headkick

knockout like like Leon Edwards versus

Camaro Usman, he's losing the fight.

Fifth round. Boom. Head kick. You see

Camaro go down like the crowd. Salt Lake

City goes nuts. That is the the ultimate

expression of martial arts is the kick,

right? And a head kick that scores a

knockout. Like that's a Bruce Lee movie,

you know? That's true. That's that's

that's what everybody wants to see. They

want to see it in real life against a

trained skilled opponent.

>> I get that.

>> That's that's the car crash.

>> Yeah. That's the car It's the skillful

car crash.

>> That but Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> All of it is skillful, but more the the

more they know about it, the more they

understand the skill it takes to get

there.

>> So, you shed the light on it.

>> Yeah.

>> You know what I'm saying? Once people,

like you said, understood the damage

that's going on and and and the need for

to know the technique and that art form

makes you the winner. At the end of the

day, who's getting their hand raised,

>> right?

>> You know what I'm saying, right? And

then and then you got those that can do

both.

>> They'll dazzle you with a with a

spinning back kick to the chin or

they'll take you and put you in a rear

naked choke. You know what I mean? So,

that's the other other part other part

of the game. But you know when you start

talking about back in the era that you

understand and we understand it was the

Buddh

that was the transition was the spirit

of it was it was it was the yesi you

know I mean it was that tradition that

really brought more mystique to the

martial arts more tradition in a way

that people honored you know what I mean

so it was kind of like you start seeing

the different transitions that came see

what I'm saying and you know it's it's

just like you hear people It's like uh

guy's out. He hits the ground. Boom. The

referee don't get there in time, but he

takes another whack or two, you know

what I mean? So then that that's the

part at least for I'm like, "Wow, man.

That's you want to make sure he don't

get up." But at the end of the day,

those couple of extra shots

>> can can can create the damage. More

damage more damage. You see what I'm

saying, Joe? So So at the end of the

day,

>> I mean, hey, it's it's vicious. It's

it's you got to be conditioned. I mean

you got to put in the work without a

doubt. You know what I mean? Because uh

exhaustion has made cowards of many.

>> Yes.

>> You know so yeah I mean so that that

whole bud heart that the tradition that

atmosphere that spirit little by little

started dissipating

>> and then and then the the new era starts

coming in you know.

>> Yeah. I believe the the the injuries

that in you know m the ground and pound

or whatever but the injury even standing

up go you know getting knocked out

standing and hitting the mat.

>> Uh you know a lot you know there a lot

of promoters are saying you know we want

to see that but again the insurance

polic I mean to get the insurance to

cover a lot of these fighters

>> is brutal. Yeah, but you have to be

small shows, right? That's it. It's

brutal and you have

>> it's a lot of grounding, a lot of

>> uh jarring of the of the mind and the

body. Um eventually it's going to give

out, you know, and so some of them don't

last two, three years and they're great

at what they do, but you know, by the

time they finish, it's hard for them to

make a living,

>> right?

>> Especially if they're married

uh and so forth. I mean, you got to

continue on life. So, they try to make

it safe enough, but at the same time,

when it comes down to the art of war,

it's mental warfare, it's physical

warfare, it's even spiritual warfare,

the energies that are coming at you. So,

uh, educating the the public to what it

really takes and what it is that we're

doing in the ring, in the cage, what is

exactly? Okay. It's entertainment, but

there's a skill. There's a skill that

we're using to be able to go in there

and stop an opponent without getting

hit.

>> Yeah. It it really is a test of your

spirit because it's a test of your

spirit just to be able to discipline

yourself, to get in condition and train

properly.

>> It's a test of your spirit to be able to

fight at the level of your actual

abilities under pressure. And what I the

way I describe martial arts competition,

I say it's highlevel problem solving

with dire physical consequences.

>> Very well put.

>> That's what it is. It's just like that's

what you're you're going against a

skilled guy who's trying to do something

to you and he's moving and you're trying

to do something to him and any mistake

boom

>> and then the referee's got a light in

your face and next thing you know you're

like oh my god you don't know what

happened.

>> I mean you have two type of fighters.

You have a checker player who take two

hits to give one that don't care. And

then you have a chess player that don't

like to take any and give the four,

five, and six. They're doing

combinations. Exactly. They're the ones

that doing combinations.

>> Well, that's why it's important where

you train, you know, and uh the gym that

you guys that set up, the Jet Center,

was legendary for developing champions

and legendary for teaching proper

technique and showing you the

consequence of the moves and also

teaching people that you don't have to

spar to try to kill each other all the

time. You know, you you could spar like

some of the best sparring I ever got was

at the Jet Center because the place when

I this is after I've been done fighting.

When I lived in Boston when we trained,

it was war. Every time you sparred, you

were just fighting. There was no one

pulled any punches. No one pulled any

kicks. Everybody was blasting everybody

full bl. It was terrifying. And you saw

a lot of guys get knocked out in the gym

and then they'd be back a couple days

later. And that's crazy. That's crazy.

We know that now. Back then we didn't

even think about it. Everybody just came

back. You just came back. You started

training again. You had a headache and

you just dealt with it.

>> Nobody Nobody actually understood a

concussion,

>> right?

>> Hey, all right. Shake it off. You know,

uh, it'll be okay. You know, sit down

for a while, have some water. Okay, back

in.

>> Right.

>> And so, you went back in with a

concussion, not not even knowing that

you had a concussion, right?

>> Other than I had a headache or I was a

little dizzy, but I'm okay again. Let me

get back in. because hey, you didn't

want to feel like, hey, I can't hang

like a [ __ ] Yeah,

>> that's right. I can't hang. And so you

get back in there with this. And so

that's what's going on with a lot of

these fighters.

They, you know, before they go, I mean,

they're training for their fight and

they get a concussion and then next week

they're going into the their fight with

a concussion, not even knowing they had

a concussion.

>> Happens all the time. Yeah, I know one

guy who got knocked out twice in camp

and then like one of them was less than

two weeks before his fight and then he

got touched on the chin in his fight

just went out cold because he was

already [ __ ] up. That's right. He came

into the fight like severely

compromised. It's like going into battle

with a hole in your armor.

>> He was already messed up. And you know,

there's like there's a time and place

for hard sparring because I think you

have to have some hard sparring to

sparring to understand that, hey, you

can't just block something like that.

You're going to get your arm [ __ ] up.

You can't just have your You're going to

have to deal with the fact that hard

shots are coming your way. So, sometimes

you're going to have to spar hard. But

technique sparring is so important, too.

One of the reasons why the Ties are so

successful is they play spar. Like, they

fight every week. So there's no reason

to get banged up.

>> So when you watch Thai fighters when

they spar over there, they're like, "Oh,

they touch each other. They just touch

each other. They're not trying to hurt

each other cuz like

>> once a week they have to go fight hard.

So they don't fight hard when they're

training. It's like their fighting is

like their one hard sparring day."

>> Yes.

>> Cuz they're some of them literally are

fighting once a week. You get these guys

that are 22 years old, they have 200

fights. Yeah. Which is crazy.

>> Crazy.

But you know again if you're fighting

a for lifestyle as eating

>> yes

>> for your family so forth

>> when you go in there

>> they're fighting

>> right

>> it it's there's no uh sparring session

it's it's a fight and that's how they

bring home food to their families and so

when they go out there I mean they're

they're fighting at five years old

they're you know they're already trained

three years old they're already training

Y,

>> you know, by the time they're 10 years

old, they have so much experience of the

fight.

>> Mhm.

>> And and some of them are are done by the

time they're 22, 24, you know.

>> Well, they already had 300 fights, by

the way, which is crazy. It is crazy. I

didn't.

>> Yeah. And a lot of it over there is

motivated by gambling.

>> That's right.

>> So, when people watch tie fights, they

go, "Why they take the first round so

light?" Well, it's because that's when

everybody gamles

>> and they can switch rounds.

>> Yeah.

They switch opponents.

>> Oh, do they sometimes?

>> That's what I understood.

>> They switch opponents in between rounds.

>> Opponents. My god. Who they're betting

on?

>> Oh, right, right, right. Switch

opponents while Yeah. that they're going

to bet on. Yeah, they do that all the

time. I mean, there's so much gambling

going on. When you go to a Muay Thai

fight in Thailand, in the beginning of

the fight, you see everybody waving

money around and pointing to people and

everybody's like setting bats. So the

first round those fighters are just kind

of like setting the pace and just

experiencing each other's timing. And

then the second round comes in, all the

bets are in. They start ramping it up

and then they start really fighting

which is

>> alien to a lot of foreigners. They go

over there and then they try to go wild

in the first round like

you got to let the bets get in and

they're like what? What are you talking

about? Like no no it's an agreement, a

silent agreement. when you go out there

that for that first round, for that

first round, you're just feeling each

other out. That guy's not going to try

to knock you out. He's just trying to

feel you out. He's going to try to land

some shots, couple hard leg kicks, maybe

a teepee, but really he's just waiting

for that second round to open up.

>> Exactly. And that's again, it's it's a

way of life to them. And you know, a lot

of a lot of them their parents are

selling their kids when they're very

young because they can't afford and

they're they're in

>> and the kids take on the name of the gym

>> and that's all they're in that they're

upstairs. They walk and talk, sleep,

dream it in that gym. They don't go

outside.

>> Yeah.

>> Every day that's all they do. They're

training for fighting

and uh I mean I've been to a couple of

them and that's it. They don't see

nothing else. They just train and go

upstairs. They do it and and the next

day they do the repeating and then they

go to the fights. It is crazy because

that the money from the gambling is what

led the sport to be so huge and the

sport becoming so huge over there is

what led them to be so good and that all

that money and gambling led it to be one

of the most fierce fighting styles on

earth because while the rest of the

world hadn't figured out the knees and

the elbows and the clinch and the leg

kicks the ties had been doing it

forever. They had already been doing it

for a long time. It took a long time for

the rest of the world to catch up to

what Thailand had figured out just from

allowing people to fight for money.

>> I mean, you're talking about in 75

just understanding the word Muay Thai,

>> right?

>> Not knowing

>> thinking it was a guy.

>> Yeah. Said, "What the heck is that?" You

know,

>> that is such a crazy story.

>> Yeah. But

>> and then and then the the of course the

leg checks counters and you start we

started getting the idea. Okay. Okay.

this is how you fight them. And then you

have other styles for for American bred

fighters that that didn't didn't have

part of that game in their repertoire of

Arsenal. You know what I'm saying?

>> Right. Right.

>> So So and I think that's that's what the

other thing that the PK did. It didn't

give anybody from from the PK a chance

to learn,

>> you know, internationally what was going

on in the in the world. Not to put them

down because you know what? That was all

part of us moving forward, you know, in

back in the day learning. But, you know,

when you when you come up through

Shakan, you're going to know how to

sweep and you're going to know how to

front kick. You know what I mean? And

so, that that was on the traditional

side of the art.

>> But yeah,

>> it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate

because I, you know, even Dana White

when I talked to him about I was like,

"Ah, people don't care about

kickboxing." I'm like, "It's just

because it was sold badly in the 80s.

That's really all it is. Like if it was

around today, I genuinely believe it

would like if kickboxing had gotten the

same sort of promotional push that the

UFC got like way back in 2001, I think

it would be just as big as boxing, just

as big as MMA. I think it would be huge

right now.

>> I'm going to agree with you because

there are a lot of excellent standup

fighters that are really colorful.

>> Absolutely.

>> And can you and use all their weapons.

They can use elbows, knees, feet,

jumping. I mean things that no everybody

afraid. I don't do that.

>> They didn't want me to throw spinning

back kicks.

>> It doesn't work. I said, "Really?"

And I've been showing them for every

time they said, they I I made them eat

the words because again,

the art if you do it right,

>> it looks fancy.

>> It doesn't work if you're not good at

it.

>> No. Yeah, like everything doesn't work

if you're not good at it. You try to

punch Floyd Mayweather, you're not going

to hit him. It doesn't mean punches

don't work.

>> It just means you're not good enough at

it. That's You know what I mean? It's

like

>> it's like it's interesting that people

don't see that. Even coaches don't see

that sometimes.

>> You know, Terrence Crawford learned how

to switch hit, you know, cuz Terence

Crawford is one one of the best switch

dance fighters ever since Marvin

Haggler. And the one of the reasons why

he did it is because his coach told him

he can't do that. His coach is like,

"Don't do that. Stay orthodox. Stop

messing around." He's like, "What?" He's

like, "I can fight this way, too." He's

like, "No, no, no, you can't." He's

like, "Oh, okay. I'll show you." And he

would go out and start fight southpaw.

And then like start [ __ ] people up

and switch hands on them and they're

like, "Oh, no." Because it's an amazing

skill to have, but it's only amazing if

you develop your southpaw style as good

as your orthodox style. It doesn't mean

that you can't do it. It means it has to

be at that leg. If you want to land a

spinning back kick, it doesn't mean you

can't land a spinning back kick. It just

mean your spinning back kick is not good

enough to land. That's right.

>> But Benny Aritz can land that spinning

back kick. That's right.

>> I mean, I'm I'm softball. I'm a lefty.

>> But I fought left forward because my

brother said, "Don't let them know

you're lefty."

>> So, he trained all of us. Even my sister

was lefty and we all trained left

forward. But when we struck, you

couldn't tell that we're a softball. So,

we started left-handed and working this

and but that was his logic.

>> It was also the benefit of that is you

had a lethal left-hand kick.

>> So, your left side kick, that front

kick, the side kick from the left side

and the front round kick from the left

side was fast as [ __ ]

>> because you're a naturally left-sided

fighter.

>> That's right.

>> Yeah.

>> That's right. You know, I I think that

it's just each decade as we go, you

know, as Blinky was talking about the

Brudo way, you know, there was a uh, you

know, you had honor, there was an honor

system and all that and then the in the

70s it started to change when full

contact came in. it started to change

and then kickboxing in 75 and on

people were you know uh we're we're not

martial artists we're we're kickboxers

then Muay Thai came oh we're kick we're

Muay Thai we're not kickboxers

uh and and every then we're UCI fighters

we're not Muay Thai fighters I said you

know so every decade it changed but

again you needed to learn from ground

one and ground one was eternal the I am

concept of what do you tell yourself

with that you know and there was an

honor system going on and and there was

a code of honor between warriors

>> right

>> and that got lost

>> that's right

>> and there was power in that there was

power in that code of honor of strength

of knowing and they said well how do you

know I said I just know but they said

how do you know I said I can't answer

you that other than the fact that I just

know

>> the tenants of a warrior code that you

would learn in traditional martial arts

were very important. That's why

everybody would bow at the beginning of

the class and everybody would keyi at

the same time. There was a there was

there was a rigid structure to it

>> and they would not let anyone trash

talk. They would not there was no

yelling and swearing. There was no none

of that.

>> You don't even wipe the sweat off your

head,

>> right? There was bowing and you know it

was the beginning of the fight.

Everybody like bowed to each other, went

back to the corner. There was no trash

talk. There was no none of that. It was

your words will be spoken with your

weapons.

>> That's it.

>> I wanted to just add, you know, Benny

mentioned his sister.

>> Well, I was we're w cousins. I was

married to Lily. Lily was my wife and

she passed away, but she was a

trailblazer for women.

>> Absolutely.

>> Boxing and kickboxing. Won titles in

both.

>> Fought Madison Square Garden 1978, you

know, also. and uh and just paying

homage, you know, because she she also

pioneered and was taking the forefront,

you know, fighting at the Olympic,

fighting at the forum, fought in Japan,

traveled the world and fought and

represented well and trained hard, you

know what I'm saying? So, yeah,

>> because actually at the fights, my

sister Lily, she actually fought first.

Blinky will fight and then I would be

the last to fight. So all three of us

when we traveled the world introducing

kickboxing, my sister Blinky and myself,

we all fought at the same card.

>> So So the night Bobby Chakon, if you

remember that name,

>> Bobby. Sure.

>> Okay. Bobby Chakon and Alexis Arguo.

>> Oh yeah.

>> We fought on their card.

>> Both of us. First husband and wife to

fight on a boxing card like that.

>> Wow.

>> Under that right there.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> And we were And and I I grew up with

Bobby. We grew up with Bobby. He came

out of the San Frernando Valley.

>> Little featherweight.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, he his whole style, man.

>> Yeah. His whole style.

>> I was his sparring partner for a while

and he started busting up my nose and

give me black eyes. I said one time I he

hit me with such a beautiful right hand.

My leg came up automatically and he

started taking his glove off. I'm, you

know, I'm not sparring with you. No. I

said it was a reflex. I'm sorry, but I

didn't mean to bring the leg up. He said

he start taking his glove. I don't want

to spar with you no more.

>> Did you hit him with the leg or just

pick it up?

>> No, I picked it up. He He hit me with a

nice right and automatically my right

leg came up to and by then he just he

told Joe Pon, I'm not spawning with him

no more.

>> But the craziest thing about all this is

you guys were trailblazers and there was

very little money in it.

>> Oh yeah. Are you kidding me? We paid our

own way just to get there to fight.

>> We paid him to fight. Really?

>> No, we didn't fight.

>> I mean, when I say I mean when I say we

did, we paid for our own gas and our

just to go out there and actually fight.

So, it was very little money.

>> Yeah. There was no money and glory and

big houses and cars and the things that

fighters look forward today.

>> Just heart just the love just the love

of the sport building it. Well, I don't

think you guys get enough credit and

it's one of the reasons why I really

wanted to have you on to talk about it

because I think

>> the sport needs to recognize the

pioneers that blaze the trail and you

two are one of the most important

pioneers that blazed the trail in

martial arts in this country.

>> And you know, you did it back when no

one knew what was going on. You got to

people need to understand 70 like when

did you guys first start fighting? When

when did you have your first kickboxing

competitions? Actually, it was in 73. It

was called Full Contact Karate. And we

already was fighting in ' 64 martial

arts and that was, you know, Bare

Knuckles hitting the ground. We were

already sparring in then. And then

>> no one knew about it back then. We have

to realize like the Bruce Lee movies,

when did they start coming out into

America? Like when was the early

>> So this is like almost 10 years before

that.

>> Yeah.

>> Crazy.

>> Yeah. like real pioneers, man. No one

knew about it that you had heard about

judo. People knew about judo. Maybe some

people had heard about karate, but it

wasn't that popular in America.

>> The first thing was actually popular was

the boxing,

>> right? Of course.

>> And after the boxing,

>> boxing has always been popular.

>> That's right. And then other than all

the other sport, but boxing was when it

came to the art of war. And then it was

judo in the uh I started actually judo

in 60 and then 63 we started Kimple

karate.

>> Is that where you met Gene Leel?

>> Yes. Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> And I tell you what, talking about the

master of disaster.

>> Oh yeah. He was awesome.

>> Ponagi.

>> Here we go.

>> I got a chance to meet him because one

of the guys that I first trained

jiu-jitsu under, I took private lessons

from this guy, Sylvio Pimento.

>> Oh yes.

>> You know Silio?

>> I do.

>> And he's a great guy. Shout out to

Silio. And uh he was a Gene Label

student. So he had a bunch of nasty

tricks that he had learned from Gene

Leel along with his jiu-jitsu stuff. So

he showed me a lot of like different

chokes and different things and

different variations that Jean had

developed,

>> right?

>> And I was like, man, and then I finally

got to meet Jean. What a character that

guy was. He is such a character. Jean

was one of those type of warriors sensei

that say if you want to train with me

don't be a don't be afraid to get choked

out and before you can actually train

with him he choke you out he choke you

out and he and he would go and get

lipstick and put it around your eyes and

then when he wake you up you had all

this that was sinc

and I told Sinc Jin I said get it over

with she spoken me out. Get it over. Cuz

I knew that. I knew automatically like

he was being easy with I said just do

it. Get over. Uh I said I'm not afraid.

Just do it. And took me before I was

out. And I was back up again. I didn't

even know I was out. And uh he said,

"You took it like a you know like a

charm, man. you know, what's true? I

said I said, you know, since if I'm not

afraid to die, what can you possibly do

to me? He said, really? And I said,

"Yeah." And then he grabbed my big toe

and put me in pain all the way up to my

forehead, all the way back down to the

other big toe. And I said, "I'll never

say that one again."

>> Your big toe? He had a big toe

submission.

>> Yeah. He grabbed my big toe at right at

at the edge of it and he put his nail in

it and oh my god my eyes were bulging.

>> Jean told me a story about when he was

old. He was I think he was in his 70s.

Some kids were breaking into his car and

he went outside. Did you hear this

story?

>> Yes.

>> There's two guys that were talking.

They're like, "Get the [ __ ] out of here,

old man." He's like, "Oh, really?" He

grabs this dude, [ __ ] hip throws him

out of the concrete. Boom. Grabs the

other dude, chokes him unconscious. He

[ __ ] up two dudes when he was 70 years

old. Yeah.

>> In front of his house. It's like

>> Yeah.

>> Matter of fact, I did a couple of movies

with him and

>> Yeah. His mother was Eileen Eaton.

>> She owned the Olympic Auditorium.

>> Oh, wow. I mean, the Olympic Auditorium

was the spot way back then, man. You had

some big time fights going on.

>> Big time fights.

>> Dean Leel and always

>> he was always humble

>> and you know what I mean? And and he

wore his humility very well.

>> Yeah. He was very self-deprecating and

joking about himself and being silly,

but man, you shook that guy's hand.

You're like, "This is a [ __ ]

gorilla."

>> There's Jean. There he is.

>> Such a great guy.

>> Yes, he is actually. Um,

>> and he had one of the first mixed rules

fights when he fought Milo Savage.

>> That's right.

>> That even predated the karate fights or

the the mixed martial arts fights that

you guys had in Hawaii. That's right. He

fought Milo Savage who was a boxer and

he wore a ghee and uh the ghee was so

smart because Milo, you know, got

tangled up in the ghee and Jean grabbed

him and strangled him.

>> You know, matter of fact, um it was

Muhammad Ali at the time. We went to

fight in Japan and he was the main

event. I was a semi-event.

>> Was that when he was fighting at Noki?

>> Yeah. He stood on the ground. I was. So

I I went

>> and I I knocked out my opponent quickly

because I wanted to see the fight.

>> So I stopped my opponent.

>> Who did you fight? Do you remember?

>> Uh I can't even think of his name.

>> See if you can find the the undercard.

Benny's fight on the undercard cuz that

fight with Ininoi was crazy. Like I

don't know how they talked Muhammad Ali

into fighting him.

>> I you know it was a five rounder and it

was there was there was not supposed to

be no decision. It was five rounder and

so forth and they both got paid great

money but I was telling in uh in the

dressing room I was telling Muhammad Ali

he's going to go for your legs and he

starts saying I'm so fast and I said I

said I said Muhammad he's going to go

for your legs and I said sure enough

>> after I fought I I didn't even want to

go to the dressing room I just wanted to

stay there and when they came out and

sure turn out the first thing Tony did

jumped went to the ground and did a

flying round kick to his thighs.

>> Yeah.

>> After the second round, Tony Noki went

out there and started going to his

ground and

Muhammad Ali jumped on the on the corner

of the ring and was kicking him on the

ground as he was holding on to the ring.

>> It was at the time it was funny if to

see it. But after the five round, uh, I

tell you, Muhammad could I mean, they

had to carry him. He

>> Yeah, his legs were [ __ ] up.

>> Oh my god.

>> Yeah, they were really badly damaged.

And for a guy who relies on his legs as

much as Ali did, that's a crazy fight to

take because if he got sidekick and

hyperextended his knee and it was never

the same.

>> Yeah.

>> It would compromise his movement. That

was float like a butterfly. That was a

big part of his style.

>> That's true, Leo. And I just can't

imagine how anybody allowed him to take

that fight.

>> Yeah.

>> Like if I was his manager, I'd be like,

"There's no way you're taking this

fight. This guy's gonna ruin your legs."

>> You know, first of all, it was always

about whether it was about the money or

not, but it was about, you know, doing

something different,

>> right? And Tony Noki being, you know,

Muhammad Ali here in United States, you

know, Tony Noki was the man.

>> He was the man in Japan. Pro wrestling.

Yeah.

>> And so that's why they went and it was

packed the place.

>> Did you you find that video? Is it

available online at all? Yeah, I was

looking for the I mean I can only find

stuff about the the event was called the

War of the Worlds and they also showed

it on Andre like on TV on the screen.

>> The Giant Andre the Giant

>> fought in New York.

>> He fought Chuck Weapner.

>> Wow.

>> Wow.

That's crazy. So that was in New York.

>> That was a TV event. It says like 10

rounds direct from New York and this is

15 rounds direct from Tokyo.

>> Oh

like pay-per-view or something. Oh wow.

So they

>> Yeah, even a co- feature will appear

local to your area.

>> Oh wow.

>> But there's no video available.

>> Oh, look. I'm still I was looking right.

>> Um

>> their fight. I was looking for

>> That was a great fight though.

>> Yeah, their fight was crazy.

>> Their fight was crazy. When you look at

Eninoi kicking him, you're like, this is

just nuts.

>> He jumped right to the ground and then

>> he was a big guy.

>> Oh yeah,

>> was a big guy.

>> But you know what? Uh, he wasn't full

Japanese. He was half Japanese, half

something else. But he was tall and he

had a square jaw that was