See, we've had a good discussion about

this. We're still getting dragged online

and I get dragged with him. Thanks,

Scott.

Let's get to the news. Uh, first, Tucker

Carlson, one of Trump's biggest

supporters over the last few years, now

says he regrets helping uh get Trump

elected. He offered an apology on the

latest episode of the Tucker Carlson

show while speaking with his uh brother

Buckley, a former Trump speech writer.

Uh uh Tucker and Buckley. Oh my

goodness. Let's uh let's uh listen.

>> You wrote speeches for him. I campaigned

for him. I mean, we're implicated in

this for sure.

>> Yes.

>> It's not enough to say, "Well, I changed

my mind." Or like, "Oh, this is bad. I'm

out." It's like in very small ways, but

in real ways, you and me and millions of

people like us are the reason this is

happening right now.

>> Yes. So, I do think it's like a moment

to wrestle with our own consciences.

Uh, you know, we'll be tormented by it

for a long time. I will be. And and I

want to say I'm sorry for misleading

people in it was not intentional. That's

all I'll say.

>> So, Tucker might be tormented. Is he

trying to pull a Joe Rogan? He's going

back to Trump to to when he needs

something. I mean, he's done this before

in those emails during that tri the the

um the the uh the trial that Fox had and

lost. Uh he would call them demonic. He

was he's been here and I don't think

Trump has been anything but explicit

about what he is for a very long time.

So I'd love to talk about this and the

idea of redemption like that Rogan was

trying to do it and of course the minute

he gave him his psychedelics he shows

right up and how and Green is one you

know you got a lot of push back for for

your Ben Shapiro comments this week this

week I

>> not my comments my interview

>> your interview excuse me but also what

you said about him and stuff so these

people seem to be moving this way in a

way that's is it real is it not

How much should we hold people

responsible for the things they've said

previously? Green has been terrible. Ben

has been many things are not the stuff,

especially around trans and people of

color has been repugnant to me at least.

Um, gay people.

>> But you would put Ben and Tucker in the

same category.

>> I put them I put them all in a different

way because I think a lot of what Ben

has said previously is really if I read

it I mean I can read it to you if you'd

like. I want to talk about the bigger

idea of giving people space. They are

obviously Tucker is and Rogan is and

Theo Vaughn is and Marjorie Taylor Green

are trying even Megan Kelly on this sort

of redemption tour in a weird way. And I

don't I not necessarily believe it, but

I want to talk about this issue of when

you let people say I made a mistake a

couple years ago when I said this

heinous thing. Forgive me. That which is

what Tucker's asking for here.

Look, this is sort of do as I say, not

as I do because I think the right thing

is be careful shaming people for saying

they were wrong and coming back into the

fold, you know, because that's how we

that's how we maintain our virtue and

indignance and elected elect JD Vance. I

think we just need to be a little bit

more when people say I [ __ ] up and

this guy is bad, fine, welcome them. I I

that's the smart thing to do. I have a

difficult time resisting calling, you

know, telling Marjorie Taylor Green or a

difficult time not telling her to sit

down when all of a sudden, you know,

when it no longer matters and she

doesn't get his support or endorsement

to run for Senate, she's all of a sudden

decided that he's bad. For me, when I

saw those comments from Tucker,

I it seemed to me to be I thought I I

think I absolutely know what's going on

here.

>> Mhm.

>> He's running for president, Cara.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And do you realize what an

enormous lane there is for somebody who

has very conservative values, an

enormous media platform, an enormous

army of acolytes that he could weaponize

right away, and by the way is anti-Trump

and anti- the war in Iran, which a huge

swath of Republicans are now. Who

occupies that lane right now? And I

disagree with Kowi on this. I think here

and now

Tucker Carlson is the most likely GOP

nominee for president in 2028. Put him

on stage with Rubio and Vance, he's

going to slice and dice them. So, we do

I believe as Democrats and I realize I

bring some bias to the table. I think he

could go six, seven people deep. I think

you know the the eighth mo most likely

person to get the nomination like a

senator Clolobashar or uh an Osaf they

are 10 times better than the person

leading in the prediction platforms for

the Republican party JD Vance we are we

have a deep bench as deep as our bench

is theirs is that shallow

JD Vance I mean he makes

Jesus Christ he makes goals likable I

mean, the guy the guy is unattractive.

They're going to have a field day taking

all of his statements and his gymnastics

and his hipp hypocrisy

and his weirdness. Whether it's saying

that the pope should be more careful

speaking to notions of of of religion. I

mean, he's said so many ridiculous

things that they're going to have a

field day with. Yes, he shifted rather a

lot.

>> And then they'll connect them and they

haven't even started connecting him to

Teal and that [ __ ] weirdness.

>> Well, do do but the shiftingness of this

Tucker thing for example? I mean I

didn't he know or why did he suddenly

know or was it just because it's Israel

and um uh and this Iran war? What what

what is it? It's like how do you

>> It's calculated. It's strategy. in this

case is calculated because I think he's

already said this privately and it got

out in those legal filings and

>> he's always he's always hated Trump. I

think anyone I think Tucker's a smart

guy. I think anyone who's intelligent

>> and whatever you say about Tucker I I

don't know he he's an intelligent

impressive media figure. He is very good

at what he does and he could not stand

Trump and then saw that his audience was

going there and that's the way he was

going to make money was to be just

blindly supportive of Trump. Now he sees

an opening.

He's the he's the leading candidate for

president.

>> The heinous things he said like there a

lot of look greenhouse.

>> He's trying to recast himself. He's

apologized and now he has two years to

take on an anti-Trump

uh Republican. He has two years to

basically carve out and cement a lane of

I am anti-Trump. I'm an anti-Trump

conservative that was anti-war that

neither Vance nor Rubio can carve out.

He's he's very well positioned,

>> right? But then how do you I want to

talk about the bigger picture of

escaping this like the Marjorie Taylor

Greens and and Shapiro was doing that

and and you know we've gotten some a lot

of I get your flag too. Um

>> bring it on.

>> Okay. Explain because you said let me

just push back at you if you don't mind.

Um you said you appreciate his moral

clarity and reasoning. I'm going to take

issue. I think he's very smart. There's

no question. I'm going to take some

issue and I sometimes agree with some of

the things he says, not a lot of them,

but some of them. Okay. Um, he also took

a shot at me that was inaccurate and put

it in the commercial.

>> That's right. On my podcast.

>> Oh, no. You said on your podcast,

>> he took a shot at you.

>> No, no, no. Before previously, he's he

he did call to apologize to me about it,

which I appreciated. But that said, the

moral clarity thing, I mean, I I I would

have trouble h how do you escape things

like, let me just tell you a couple of

things he said, which sort of is why I

found it a little bit disturbing. Um, he

called transgenderism a mental disorder.

He argues that homosexuality should

remain in the DSM as a mental illness.

He's called women who have abortions

baby killers. He's um he said a man and

a woman do a better job of raising a

child than two men or women. That's not

even getting into some of the the

comments he makes about Arabs. He said

this was a long time ago and he walked

back those comments as being dumb when

he said Israelis like to build Arabs

like to bomb and live in open sewage

which I didn't think was something one

should say and any number of men and

women things. But and then Green

herself, let me move on to Green, you

know, is saying a lot of incredible

things. That said, she another person

who attacks trans and gay people uh says

every now and then drops what I consider

to be very anti-Semitic tropes very

quickly once she gets past I don't like

war. It she shifts she she mix she she

she she says Jewish when she means

Israel quite a bit. And so you kind of

see the play there. I I do want to like

how do you I couldn't I don't think I

could talk to to Ben Shapiro because of

a lot of the things unless in some way

how talk about this whether our country

and I just talked to a Hearnden about

this is that most regular people do

forgive people or they say oh he didn't

mean it and Tucker's trying to do the

same thing Joe Rogan's trying to do the

same thing

>> Gavin Newsome's trying to do the same

>> Gavin Newsome's trying to do yes he's

shifting the other way which I I also

have written him and said I find like

what are you doing here? Um and and I we

can disagree with each other, but how

how easy it is is it to let people back

in and what should be the um

I guess what should be the criteria? I

guess there'll be different criteria for

each person.

>> Look, I at a very spiritual level, the

question around letting people back in

is forgiveness is divine and

you know, you want to heir on the side

of forgiveness. Having said that, I

think the more salient question is who

do you decide to platform or not? So,

I've had a lot of people from quote

unquote the manosphere contact me

directly and say, "You have

misrepresented me. You are part of the

manosphere, but you're manosphere light.

We could have a productive conversation.

I'm coming on." And I'm like, to be

blunt, I think what you have said is so

unproductive and so damaging for young

men that I don't want to give you any

oxygen. I don't even want to get in your

face. I don't want to have an argument.

I don't I don't use the most famous

misogynist. I don't use his name because

I don't want to give them oxygen. So the

question is, do you give a guy like Ben?

>> Which one is it? Go ahead.

>> Well, you can probably guess anyways.

>> Andrew Tight.

>> Well, someone who's been jailed for

accusations of of trafficking women.

>> I will use this.

>> I mean, okay. So, but I don't He likes

it. Every time his name is used, the

algorithms elevate his contact content

and other platforms. Yeah, he's number

one on Substack right now.

>> And the reality is if you talk to young

men, most young men have written him off

a long time ago, but I think because we

he's such an easy punching bag. We

mention his name and the algorithms pick

it up and elevate his content. Anyways,

and a lot of young people will be drawn,

especially young men, to people who are

controversial figures. So my feeling is

there's certain people you just choke

off their oxygen supply. So the question

is with someone like Ben, he has said in

my opinion wrong, even maybe vile

things. I said to him, I said in my post

comments after my interview with him,

the thing that really bothers me about

Ben is that he has courageously called

out these far-right people and said,

"We're we can't engage in this

conspiracy theory, this hatemongering."

He said that to that group. I thought

that was fairly courageous of him to

call out those people. My issue or one

of my issues with Ben is that when they

were these people were conspiracy

theorists accusing world leaders, first

ladies of having penises or accusing

people of, you know, just very heinous

things, some of the transgender stuff,

he sort of was a bit of an apologist,

but then when they went against Israel,

that was the the red line for him. And

so I'm like, okay, basically Ben has

decided to excommunicate and call out

people on the far right, not when

they're homophobes or bigots, but when

they become anti-semitic.

And I said that I think I I disagree

with a lot of what Ben says. This is Ben

Shapiro. He grew up in a lower middle

class home. He's so [ __ ] smart. He

got to Harvard. He's built a great

company. He is willing to acknowledge

points. I love just watching him debate

to just take notes on how I make my

progressive viewpoints, how I articulate

my progressive viewpoints in a more

compelling way. And also, I am done with

this notion of this apostate culture on

the left where if I don't choose the

right words or have the right people on

my podcast, people act as if I've

betrayed them. There are there is a

line. I will never have Candace Owens on

my podcast. I will never have Nick

Quentes on my podcast, but I think I

think Ben brings a really

intellectual, adept, clever arguments

and viewpoints to issues I don't agree

with him on. And I think it's a healthy

dialogue.

>> I'm not sure they're saying you

shouldn't have him on. I think it was

the moral clarity thing I think was what

>> Okay, I chose Okay, I chose the wrong

word. I get it.

>> He doesn't back down. He has a view and

then he doesn't back down. He's not

trying to go where the wind goes or or

what gets him most the most likes on

Instagram. I respect that. I think he

genuinely believes what he believes. He

tries to provide evidence and argument.

Um I'm I'm

I said I'm a fan of Ben Shapiro. I'm a

fan. You have to separate the person

from the politics. I think he is an

impressive young man who has who has

demonstrated incredible intellect and

really made an incredibly successful

media company. And this notion that I

believe when we all start barking up the

same tree, we get really [ __ ] stupid.

And I think that people on the left and

the right have a tendency to all want to

find the right words, especially people

on the left, and get angry at anybody

that wants to have a discourse.

>> Come on, Scott. The right has gotten so

sensorious, like they're the ones who

are actually doing the censoring. There

is a purity test on the right right now

around Trump, around everything else.

And pushing these people pushing back is

hard, I have to say. Um, despite I

>> I find that the far right or the right,

not the far right, I find the right just

writes me and you off. They just say

we're livearts.

>> The most hate I get is from progressives

who are like, "We thought we you could

trust

>> when you said Biden was too old. You

don't understand the assignment. We

thought we could trust you,

>> right?"

>> Or, "Oh, wait. Do you remember the hate

I got on that podcast when I said that

transgender women should not be allowed

to compete in women's sports?" Do you

remember that one?

>> Mhm. I mean, it's okay. You are you are

with us 100% or you're against us.

>> Well, that's different than having a

debate over a very complex issue and and

saying transgenderism is a mental

disorder or that homosexuality.

>> Say that.

>> No, he did. Ben did. Okay. So, should we

not ever talk to Ben because he said

that?

>> I I think we

>> should not ask him to defend his

comments.

>> I I think it's that's what I'm asking

you. It's a really difficult thing. I've

thought about having Marjorie Taylor

Green on and then I read a lot. I'm

like, uh, I'm going to like just cuz I

like what she's saying. I I don't trust

any of these people. I'll be hon. And I

just think they see the wind

>> and I think they have legitimate

problems with Trump. I do think Green,

for example, is an America first and

she's always been. I think she's very

committed to the Epstein issues and I

think she is. I don't I don't I I think

she's sincere in this in that. And you

can hear it goes way back and I go and I

go way back to read her. But then when

it's accompanied by this other stuff,

how do you set I think it's gonna be a

very hard road back for everybody.

>> But let me just create let me just call

out a distinction. I struggle with the

thing same thing you're struggling with.

You have more license I think because

you're a journalist and so

getting Marjorie Taylor Green on on with

Caris Swisser and talking to her and put

and you're you're a great interviewer.

You're a much better interviewer than me

knowing how to forcefully push back. You

are you are you are great at that. But

I'll give you an example.

I don't think Ben would ever stalk

people who came to testify in front of

Congress who were Parkland shooter

survivors and follow them for four

blocks accusing them of lying and being

crisis actors. I don't see Ben Shapiro

ever doing something like that. At the

end of the day, this is your call and

people can decide that. All right, if

you're

>> That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking

about more as our country like when do

we let it go? Like that's going to be

the reason I'm asking is I just did this

incredible interview with the status

like when does it

>> the statute of limitations and when

people

>> when does do all of us have to just

leave Trump behind us and all the bad

and I'm not I blame him but I blame

ourselves because it's really hard and

it's and it's and the jumping like

listen I got like attacked for saying

Reese Witherspoon was just saying try

AI.

>> That was weird. That was just stupid. It

was weird, but it was also but I also

get it like the rage about it's

>> the machine looking for soft tissue to

pretend they're virtuous. That's stupid.

>> You know the right virtues you virtuous

we all

>> that's everybody everybody who's angry

about AI there's a there's there's

there's different this is right

>> that's all I'm saying is I get where

it's coming from. I get where it's

coming from and so I discount it. And

sometimes you know I was talking to

Claire this morning about some skull was

was being mad about his socks or

something like that. And I said to her,

it was we were driving to school and she

goes, "Oh yeah, he was really mad about

the socks." I said, "You know, he wasn't

mad about the socks. He was mad cuz I've

been away for a few days and he wanted

me to drive him to school and I'm

driving you." And I said, "Sometimes

people are mad about things that have

nothing to do

>> for a six-year-old. I couldn't have that

conversation with my 18-year-old."

>> And it was an interesting conversation.

>> You bring up Freud or Yungian

resentment.

>> No, I just used Claire's so smart. It's

crazy.

>> Let's watch Frozen.

>> Watch Frozen. Frozen, too. But it's just

I think we should be talking like what

is what do we have to do to get back to

some level of disagreement? And I do

think I I there's no question that the

Greens, the Shapiro, the Owens, the Meg

uh Megan Kelly uh and definitely people

on the left too, who I don't listen to

as much, which is interesting, have

tried to like poke at us and make us

really dislike each other in a way that

I think has been very dangerous. And at

some point there has to be some level of

reckoning over that because

>> the right word,

>> you know, it's a reckoning. And what is

that reckoning is really important.

>> Well, three points. There's some nuance

here. I would not group all of those

people into the same group. I think

there's different levels of

menaciousness and disingenuous and

saying hateful things for money. Um, the

right word. So, the first is

um what I'll call camera culture or

forgiveness. I think in a culture where

everyone's following each other around,

where everyone's tweets live forever, if

we don't expand the aperture of

forgiveness, we're just all going to

[ __ ] hate each other. I say stupid

[ __ ] all the time. I I'm putting out 14

[ __ ] hours a week of content. I'm

shooting from the hip. I If an

18-year-old shows up to a a a protest on

campus and says from the river to the

sea, not understanding how some people

perceive that, you know, I don't want to

kick him out of school. I don't want to

ruin his career. I don't want to I don't

want to contact JP Morgan, which some

people want to do, and get make sure he

doesn't his summer internship is

rescended. We have to get to a level of

more forgiveness in a culture where

there's incentive to find make a cartoon

of people's comments and press on the

soft tissue and and be outraged behind

our computers. I I and we have gone so

far from that. We need I'm trying to do

that. I'm trying not to call out people

for clicks when I see an opportunity.

I'm trying to take the temperature down.

The word you bring up though and it's

different is reckoning. And that is I do

not think this nation heals until there

is some form of reckoning. Marjorie

Taylor Green and Nancy Pelosi should

discourage their profits from insider

trading. The people who were in charge

or supervisors of ICE in Minneapolis

where an ICU nurse somehow ended up with

10 bullets in his person, those people

should be should be hauled in front of

committees and punished. I'm not saying

maybe they go to jail. When when there

are people in geopolitical advantage,

they should disorgge those profits and

be put on trial. There needs to be a

reckoning here. At the same time, with

respect to what people say or their

views or being incendiary or playing

into a far-left or a far-right media

ecosystem that then elevates it online,

we need to massively increase the

aperture around forgiveness.

>> Yeah, I think well, that's well said.

See, we've had a good discussion about

this. We're still getting dragged online

and I get

>> Thanks.

>> I think you should do the interview with

I would tune in for the interview with

Marjorie Taylor Green. I would love to

see what you said and how you how you

approach it. I think that would be

>> one of the reasons I would not interview

MTG is I don't feel like I have the

skills to handle that interview.

>> Well, yeah, it's hard because it's part

of me I'm like go girl and part of me is

like really some of the heinous things

you've done. Shall I? There's a point.

It's it's a difficult thing because you

know I just I'm like you very clearly

have issues with Jewish people like it's

uh you know you'd have to have an honest

convers you'd have to be open to an

honest conversation instead of just clap

clap clap we forgive you.

>> Can I give you can I give you a couple

real world examples? I was supposed to

go on Bill Maher and I found out that

Steve Bannon was one of the panelists.

you did. You removed yourself.

>> And I said, "Uh, this guy made what

looked like to me a Nazi salute."

And a lot of people say, "No, he didn't.

If I had more skills, I could handle

that conversation." I don't have that

skills, those skills. I I as a non to my

mother, I I feel like I would have to

[ __ ] say something to him on live TV.

I do not want to hijack Bill Mar show,

and I don't know how to thread that

needle, so I backed out. I was invited

to go on Steve Bartlett's podcast

tomorrow. I was supposed to be on with

Eric Schmidt on a discussion on AI. I

have a lot of respect for the brain of

Eric Schmidt. I I would learn a lot. I'm

like, I'm in. And they're like, Eric

can't do it. Can you come on in and this

panel with Sanker Chank? I mean, every

time I see that guy, he's yelling. I

don't want to get into a yelling match

with anybody.

>> You went on that Piers when I told you

not to.

>> Well, I didn't know he was going to he

was going to ambush me with some

farright weirdo.

>> Yeah. So, and by the way, I I I like

Pierce,

>> and he's been very generous to me. And I

called the producer and I said, "Never

again. Don't call me. You didn't warn me

that you were going to bring on some

right-wing weirdo to try and say to call

me desperate and unamerican. I don't

need that shit." And it wasn't a civil

conversation. It was you just trying to

get the YouTube algorithm to have a call

out moment such that you'd get another

[ __ ] $40 from AdSense. I'm not going

to engage in that. At the same time, I'm

not going to get on with I think that

guy is far left who every time I see him

is yelling. I'm like that that what good

does that do me? What what good does

that do the ecosystem or any sense of

civil discourse that this nation needs

to move toward?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see how it goes.

It'll be interesting.

>> I'm so indignant right now.

>> What you

>> I'm so indignant right now. What do you

call What do you call What do you call a

black man on the moon?

>> Oh, no. Don't. Please don't. You're I'm

gonna have to fire you soon. What?

>> An astronaut. You [ __ ] racist.

>> Oh, I love it. That guy is amazing. He's

>> with his dog. That guy is amazing.

>> He's amazing. Like, oh, all right.

>> They make $150,000 a year.

>> One of them said I wouldn't fly with a

Who was the person who said I wouldn't

fly with a black pilot?

>> It was Charlie Kirk.

>> Was it Kirk?

>> He was making a point around DEI that he

thinks there's And by the way, Elon's

done it too.

>> Just so you know, how airlines I'm not

forgiving how airlines handle DEI. They

do widen the aperture in terms of who

makes it into the applicant pool, but

any pilot, female, male, black, white,

Latino, has to pass the exact same test

at the same level.

>> Ridiculous. It's [ __ ] ridiculous.

That those things I'm sorry. I'm not

going to be forgiving. Anyway, the that

pilot is amazing. Um, all right, we're

moving on. Speaking of Speaking of

>> I didn't mean to sound offensive

a lot in the last 24 hours.

>> I know. But you know what? It's good to

talk about because everyone wants me to

dump you.

>> Everyone wants you to dump me.

>> I'm not We're not doing it.

I'm just telling you today today today

I'm Scott did I have an effective and

substantive conversation about the issue

we talked about

>> just all right I'm moving on speaking of

people we may have to forgive Apple will

have a new CEO for the first time in 15

years come September Tim Cook is

stepping down as CEO and will move into

a new role as Apple's executive chairman

Trump praised uh Cook in a post on true

social also saying quote I was very

impressed with myself to have the head

of Apple calling willing to kiss my

ass," unquote. Unfortunately, this was

accurate. Uh John Turnis, the head of

Apple's hardware engineering, will

succeed Cook, first product person

running the company in a while. He's

been with the company for 25 years,

overseeing the engineering of the

iPhone, iPad, and Mac. Uh talk about the

legacy and you will have to include sort

of being tainted by this relationship

with Trump, including recently the

statue and the Melania thing. and Turnis

is joining Apple as the company is

fighting for a space in the AI race and

product innovation. Um, talk a little

bit about predictions for the Turnis era

and looking back at the Cook era. May I

start? I have to say he's 10x the amount

the value of the company. When when

Steve gave him the reigns and then died,

everyone thought it was curtains for the

company and that has not been the case.

He has been innovative with AirPods and

watch and not just not as sexy as as

Steve Jobs has been or as visionary. So

I think he's been a great um uh a great

leader for them. That said, he was

tarnished by some China all the China

manufacturing stuff for sure um because

he's a logistics guy. He he was maybe

too much of an automaton on that those

human rights issues. And then the

President Trump stuff is not a great

look, but I think he was taken one for

the team would be my guess in that

regard. Uh, as a person, I really like

him. He's he's been he's a really um

calm person. I think he could have been

slightly more outspoken about gay

issues, but that's his choice. Again, I

don't I don't force gay people have to

talk about it, but he's a good um role

model. Probably could have talked a

little bit more about it. That's my only

But that's again his choice. Um, and I

get why people don't want to. So, your

thoughts?

>> I think people's careers are, you know,

the second in the blink of a of the

corporate world in the universe. That

second 35 mm, right?

It no one gets all 35 mm perfect and Tim

Cook's running at 34 a 12. So to not,

this is his legacy. Tim Cook is the most

successful successor in corporate

history.

He talk about a guy that was set up to

fail by virtue of the idolatry of the

person who was taking over for it. They

were immediately second guess. His

record was pretty amazing. The record

itself, not just idol.

>> Yeah. It's like, okay, who inherits

Jesus's mand?

>> Yeah.

>> Steve Jobs was the new Jesus because we

had shifted from idolizing our athletes

and our government officials to the

idolatry of innovators as identified and

marked by Steve Jobs and then who was

taken from us early like Jesus. I mean

it was just he was he has become a

mythical godlike figure.

>> So any guy taking you want to talk about

the biggest shoes to fill in history and

what did Tim Cook do? He took the stock

up tfold

operationally. He built the most

probably the most robust impressive

supply chain in history. He figured out

a way in a foreign nation to take

advantage of the collision between

advanced manufacturing and low wages and

somehow get 2,000 parts to one place or

different places for assembly and build

a supercomput for $400 that if you tried

to build it anywhere else would cost

$4,000.

He figured it out. He also uh created

people say he wasn't a new product guy.

My favorite technology in history in

history.

>> Mhm.

>> These things.

>> The AirPods. You love your AirPods.

>> And AirPods if they were their own

business would be a Fortune50 company.

>> And it's I think of it's the most

successful piece of jewelry in history

in the highest margin.

>> In addition, what he decided to do was

to say, "Okay, I'm not going to launch

new products. I'm going to take existing

products and applications and take a

phone and evolve it to a supercomput

where you have payments, where you have

music.

>> So, an ecosystem is what you're talking

about creating an eos.

>> But he he took the iPhone from a phone

>> to a supercomput in your pocket that was

media transactions.

>> Yeah. Ecos

>> and and it became the iPhone pulled off

the impossible. And that is if you want

really high margins like Ferrari, it's a

niche with limited volumes. If you want

super high volumes like a Toyota, you

have to price it to get low margins. The

iPhone is the only product in history

that's managed to get the production

volume of a Toyota with the margins of a

Ferrari. The iPhone has created more

gross margin dollars than any product in

history. Arguably speaking, the iPhone

is the most successful product in

history. There's been nothing like it.

He did it with a lot of grace.

There wasn't anyone [ __ ] posting or

leaving or filing lawsuits. And if you

want to talk about Apple's ascent past,

say, Samsung or Android, go buy a phone,

an Android phone. You're you're talking

to a guy with a name tag named Roy who's

living with his parents in a bad place

with bad carpeting. And then you

>> It's still not great. I'll tell you

that. There's there's some beautiful

there's there's some beautiful form

factors that I like. I wish there was

more. No, I mean the retail the

distribution for Android.

>> Got it. Yeah.

>> You go into an Apple store.

>> Mhm.

>> If they opened a coffee store, it

probably be if they opened a coffee

counter in the Apple store, it' probably

be the highest grossing retail in the

world. And by the way, it became the

highest grossing per square foot retail

besting Tiffany in the early odds.

>> Let me ask you his negatives. What would

you say? I would definitely think the

the controversies around China

certainly, but that they seem in the

rearview mirror. What about the Trump

relationship? the China one. Look, he he

had to take a huge risk on a company

that we had geopolitical tensions with.

He couldn't look into a crystal ball.

And quite frankly, it looks as if we've

it looks as if we've survived it. And I

would argue I would argue that China and

the US have a vested interest in

figuring out a way to get along because

Apple is so important to China and China

is so important to this US company

called Apple. I think cross commerce, I

forget the German word for it, is firms

that trade trade with each other are

just less likely to go to war with each

other. So I I I am a huge fan of what he

has pulled off in China. The Trump

stuff, we were very vocal about it. It

pissed me off. I think Tim Cook, there

are few people who have benefited more

from the American system and civil

rights and gay rights and rule of law

and systemic laws around business and a

lack of favoritism and a lack of tariffs

than Tim Cook. And yet he, you're right,

he played the game. His priority was

shareholders, so he was strategic and

kissed the guy's ass. I get it. It would

have been nice if he had been a little

bit more forceful and pushed back, but

the reality is neither did the other 499

S&P 500 CEOs. So quite frankly, I think

he gets a

>> You don't see Nadella there. You don't

see like

>> Nadella went to the meeting. He

>> he went to the meeting, but I'm talking

about the like

>> he didn't go to the Melania premiere.

>> He didn't. and he didn't do the bring

him a present and just it was I thought

it was tainting of his long very decent

tenure and I don't think it I think I

know I have a feeling I know why he did

it. He's like, "It had to be done

essentially. I have to kiss up to him."

And then of course, Trump returned the

favor by saying, "He kissed my ass."

Which is just like typical.

>> Well, this is the question I would ask.

>> Yeah.

>> Of all the CEOs on a balanced scorecard

>> of having a good team, fostering

leadership, of of showing grace, not

posting other people. Who scores higher

than Tim Cook in the history of

business?

>> Cook or or Nadella? I would say Cook or

I think Navel really pulled the company

together.

>> So, we got a 99 point. He got 1590 on

the SAT. He did. He got one question

wrong. I mean,

>> okay, I got it. I'm just asking the

question. I would agree with you.

>> This guy is a first ballot hall of fame

>> 100% and American citizen

>> 100%. And when when people leave the

stage, everyone should just be

>> He's also leaving at the right time, by

the way.

>> Yeah. He's stepping down. He's not

clinging to power like an African

dictator.

>> So, um, Turnis, very quickly,

predictions for the Turnis era. Again,

talk about big shoes to fall. The the

only um you know him better than I do.

The only thing I find fascinating about

this guy is that he tinkers with like

go-karts and he's a hardware guy. So, it

says more about the board. They said

we're about hardware. We're not about

services and this is about trying to

innovate about products. You know him

better than I do.

>> I don't know him. I've met him a couple.

He wasn't he didn't stick out compared

to some of the others there that were in

the contention. But I do think he's

having a product person is really

important because they've got to really

evolve the iPhone in ways and and I

still have to get some glasses thing

going. I know you're against it, but

there's some lighter glasses thing that

has to get going. I think they haven't

been great in the home. They've been

okay. Um, and so there's a lot of and

and then of course how how AI is

integrated into all these products is

going to be with in with privacy and

safety, especially given the rage about

AI. Um, I know you all think AI is not

going to happen, but it's going to

happen. So I think that's I think we'll

see. I think it, you know, again, this

is a group of people that have been

there forever, and I would have liked to

see maybe a little bit more um shakeup,

but I see why they don't. Why would

they? and because it's working and so

he's, you know, he's younger, he's more

vibrant, and we'll see how he does.

Anyway, uh let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, uh new deals, new

details about SpaceX IPO.

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Scott, we're back. as SpaceX Blockbuster

IPO approaches. The company is doubling

down on AI, striking a deal with Cursor,

a coding startup for a possible $60

billion acquisition.

Uh, also some new details from the IPO

filing. Elon and a group of insiders

will have control of the company through

a dual stock uh dual class stock

structure. What a surprise. Elon

increased his stake in SpaceX last year,

buying $1.4 billion worth of stock from

current and former employees. He stands

to get 60 million more in shares if

SpaceX market cap reaches $6.6 trillion

and the company completes a plan to

build data centers in space. Slight

hitch. The IPO perspectus warns that

data centers and plans for the moon and

Mars rely on unproven tech and might not

be commercially viable. Um let me just

add um talk about these plans and in

other news Tesla is out with it latest

earnings reporting better than expected

numbers but still way below levels from

a few years ago. One bright spot. The

company said demand around the world is

growing obviously because of rising fuel

prices increased demand for EVs and

they're the front runner in that shares

initially rose in extended trading but

gave up those gains since Elon warned

that significant increase in capital

capbacks which he noted was going to

start at $25 billion for robots and all

sorts of large ambitious projects. I

don't really care that he does those.

Cool. If it work great, if they don't,

too bad, you know, shareholders. Um, you

know, again, it's the Tesla, the car

business is not the business anymore, so

he's got to reach for something else. I

don't fault them for that. Um, any uh

any thoughts about the IPO and then

Tesla?

>> Well, the the the news is their

acquisition or announced acquisition of

Kurser and my sense is that XAI has not

figured out a way to develop a revenue

model or a product that garners revenue.

Well, all the all the founders have left

except for Elon. I think there's nobody

left.

>> Cursor is their attempt, I think, to

bolt on a front end that has a

commercially viable product.

>> Yeah, you're right.

>> The other observation I would make is

that,

>> you know, liars use statistitians lie

and liars use statistics. Some of these

numbers are just such [ __ ] So, when

OpenAI said they were raising money at

850 billion, okay, call it a trillion if

you guarantee me a 17% preferred return

and I have a liquidity preference. I

don't care what number you put on the

the press release. And then, you know, I

mean, Anthropic here and now is worth

more than um than OpenAI, but according

to OpenAI's press release, they're worth

two and a half times. The number that's

a lie here that I'd want to know more

information about is a $60 billion

acquisition price. And I would bet it's

structured something along the lines of

the following. it. If we go public and

get a one and a half or two trillion

dollar um market cap, we're going to

give you options where 3% of the

company, which da da da is $60 billion.

They don't have $60 billion in cash

anywhere. So,

>> and also Andre's all mobbed up with that

one, I think, and a whole bunch. They're

all the same people,

>> but they want to put out a headline

number of $60 billion to canote more

value in this thing than is probably

there. Let me be clear. No one no one is

cashing a check for $60 billion right

now. So look, I think that look Musk

with respect to business and what I'll

call perception and pulling and a

narrative around getting access to cheap

capital to pull the future forward. He's

likely the best in history. Maybe with

the exception of I don't know Netflix

and Amazon played that game really

really deafly as well. But his ability

to kind of continue to say no look over

here as I stuff the rabbit into the hat.

Oh, wait. You figured out Tesla is like

just a mediocre auto company with low

mark. Wait, look over here. Oh, SpaceX

is only got 12 billion in revenues and a

one and a half. Oh, wait. Look over

here. I mean, it's just and integrating

space connectivity, broadband,

satellites, AI, autonomous

>> centers in space. Not a bad idea.

>> It is like every 8-year-old boy's dream.

I mean, it's like a company envisioned

for an 8-year-old.

>> Yeah.

>> But he is very good at this. He's very

good at in creating 1 plus one plus a

little bit of jazz hands equals $1.5

trillion.

And I look at this acquisition makes no

[ __ ] sense. It's [ __ ] The $60

billion number, it's probably a good

idea because XAI needs more human

capital and it needs something. It it

quite frankly it just needs more product

management.

>> He has to hide things in things. That's

why Twitter went into Grock, right, into

XAI because you had to hide it in there,

like the losses and the declines and

whatever. It's still hugely influential

for him. Same thing with this is his

Grock thing like all the people who he

started it and touted it with have left.

Um, so he's got to make, you know, he he

makes a [ __ ] into a very tasty [ __ ]

sandwich sometimes. Um, and and

spending, you know, you're just going to

get what you get with this guy. He's

going to always advantage himself. Um,

he wants to do cool things. He's going

to take your money to pay for it. And

the these numbers are insane, but

they'll probably go up. So, we don't we

can't say don't invest, but the fact of

the matter is they're they're you know,

are there going to be a million robots

in their homes? You can. And you can, by

the way, there's a million movies of him

talking about uh full self-driving. And

I didn't even get into this here, but it

didn't happen. Like, everything he said

was going to happen didn't happen. But

he's really good at raising money. He's

really good at innovating certain

things, but then he moves on. And so I

think you just have to go with

and then he has a Starlink in the middle

of it. And so that's that's what you get

with this guy. Um the question is is it

rabbits and and silliness or is it the

real thing? It and does it hardly matter

given the spheres go up?

>> See this is a problem. When you control

a board and you have made all the board

members a lot of money, you end up doing

deals that have no fiduciary oversight.

So in this instance, and this [ __ ] is

boring, but no one pays attention to

this stuff. A it was a share for share

deal when when SpaceX acquired XAI. And

they valued XAI at 76 bucks and SpaceX

at 527.

If SpaceX had a board that could push

back, they would say, "No, XAI is not

worth in any way um 270

billion, which is the value they're

putting on Twitter with an AI veneer.

No, it's not worth that. So, we're not

taking that dilution." But because Elon

owns equally large amounts in each, he

doesn't care.

>> He doesn't care. That's why he's going

to have control, right? But meanwhile,

SpaceX shareholders, in my view, are

getting [ __ ] to try and bail out XAI

>> and Twitter before that

>> and Twitter and Tesla at some point

>> and is bailing out Twitter shareholders

who he promised back me in this

ridiculous overpay of $44 billion and I

will figure out a way to get you your

money back. But the problem is there's

no one who has who can be a real

fiduciary here and stand up for the

shareholders they're supposed to

represent because Musk is in charge. see

above two class two class shareholder

company.

>> Agree. No, I think you've got it just

right. And you know what? I hope he gets

a million robots. I've heard his robotic

stuff is revolutionary. But like just

land it. Land the [ __ ] plane. So, as

they say, but you know, it doesn't

matter. These shares are going to jump.

They're just he has this incredible

ability to do so. He's the Steve Jobs

used to supposedly have this reality

distortion field except they actually

delivered real company products. Um I

think he's got a reality distortion

field. Sometimes things happen,

sometimes they don't. All right, we're

going to go on a quick break. When we

come back, we'll do a quick roundup of

the rest of this week's news. There's so

much news.

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Scott, we're back. Now, let's end with a

news rundown of other stories I'd like

to hit quickly. First, Health Secretary

RFK Jr. made quite an impression as

usual this week, testifying before

Congress, besides heavy breathing on the

microphone, which was disturbing. Let's

hear a clip of him defending Trump math

while Senator Elizabeth Warren tries to

ask a question.

>> There's two ways of calculating

percentage. If you have a $600 drug and

you reduce it to 10, that's a 600%

reduction.

>> He just kept going on the math.

Elizabeth Warren wasn't having any of

it. Meanwhile, a report showing the

efficacy of CO 19 vaccines has been

blocked from being published in the CDC

and preventions scientific journal. It's

the second time they're doing trying to

pretend these vaccines didn't work. Um,

thoughts very quickly.

>> I think HEGs is doing more damage to

people outside of the US than any person

in re recent history. And I think RFK

Jr. is going to do more cause more

death, disease, and disability amongst

Americans than any person in recent

history. And President Trump has to take

credit for that, but when you listen to

the guy talk, he just he absolutely has

no qual. If there's one I mean, you just

did you're doing a show on this. If

there's one place you need to defer to

the experts and folks, expertise is an

actual thing, it's around health. And

they have clearly decided, all right,

this guy is a [ __ ] luth cannon

talking about raccoons genitalia. And

they have basically said, keep this guy

out of the news. What's interesting is

that if he had ovaries, they would have

fired him by now. I mean, they seem to

be quick to fire women.

>> Women. So, the dirty mouth lady left the

labor department.

>> I mean, what the three people now that

have been let go, all women. Anyway,

>> there was one guy failing who's fighting

with Hegath, but go ahead.

>> The Navy Secretary.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, look, he I I think RFK Jr. is

I and I this word's overused. RFK Jr. is

dangerous,

>> murderous,

>> and no one loves, you know, no one loves

RFK Jr. more than measles. And we're

about to see, in my opinion, we've

already seen it, a potential comeback of

some of the most devastating diseases

which we had eradicated because of just

junk science head up your ass um beliefs

and conspiracy theories. The fact that

this guy has been charged with the

health of America and oversees the CDC

is going to set us back

years if not decades.

>> Decades, decades. And also, he's just

such a suckup to Trump. Except, let me

just tell you, he's running for

president, too. By the way,

>> he's running for they all wake up in the

morning is. And those ma maha people

will stick with him.

>> They all wake up in the morning, look in

the mirror, and say, "Hello, madame or

Mr. President." All of these people

cannot be our president. like, oh god,

if I had to pick, I I don't know what I

would do. And I'm not going to have to

pick. I won't pick any of them. Um, very

quickly, cryptobillionaire Justin Sun

has sued the Trump family's crypto

venture, accusing criminal extortion for

freezing digital tokens over his refusal

to invest more money with the company

over at True Social. Devon Nunes has

departed as the company CEO after four

years in the role where they made, I

don't know, $5 million a year and one

year he was paid $46 million. He's an

incompetent [ __ ] Thoughts on that?

Just what a surprise, Justin son. You

tried to pay to get out of an SEC thing

and they [ __ ] you. What a surprise.

Mobsters are going to mob. I don't know

what else to say. And the Witoffs are

involved somewhere in here. It's one of

the children.

>> It goes to the notion of reckoning. I

think it should be done to the letter of

the law, but I I think right now uh the

many of the people running for president

or just many of our our fine people

serving in government in the Congress

should be outlining and putting out

plans to work with to coordinate with

states. AG that that somewhere has to be

a crime and I think we have to start

signaling we are going to pursue these

crimes and the statute of limitations I

believe on the imalments whatever it is

this is probably this is probably I bet

there's some very serious crimes this

could potentially under defense threats

so but the fact that I went to an event

where Steven Wickoff I spoke right after

him I just can't get over and the vice

president, vice president Gore was

there. I'm like, this guy is engaging in

naked criminality.

And so, and by the way, I don't think it

should be political retribution. I think

we also should go after some Democrats

specifically around insider trading.

>> Well, let me get to that. For the

prediction market news, Kelsey has fined

and suspended three congressional

candidates, uh, not both Democrats and

Republicans, uh, for betting on their

own races. That's not allowed over there

at Kelchi. uh thoughts. They're they're

that all these rules have to go in

place. A lot of companies are doing them

now. Um do not be do not be betting on

stuff like this. It is insider trading.

I'm glad Kelsey called it out as that.

>> It was a brilliant move on Kh's part. I

mean, okay, so there's good and really

bad here. The good is that Kali has

said, and this will cost them. The

politicians will come out against them.

They said you're not allowed to do this.

We're finding you. That's the good part.

Good for them. smart move politically,

strategically for uh Tar, the CEO of

Kelshi. This is what's wrong with it. We

shouldn't need companies to regulate

themselves. We the fact that, you know,

the marketplace hates a void. It hates a

vacuum. There's so little regulation

that the company itself

is finding people. It's like it if what

if what if all of a sudden Chevron said,

"Okay, you're manufacturing our oil and

putting too much carbon into the air

because we are so [ __ ] freaked out

about the lack of an an EPA." That's

where we are right now. The only

regulation that's come down the pike in

this stuff has usually been regulation

to stop regulation. And so when

companies feel everybody hopes that a

company's going to weigh in and regulate

themselves, that is not the way to run

industry or a country.

>> Not at all. And they are they are in

some cases. A lot several companies have

put in rules about this.

>> But it's insider trading is all we it's

insider.

>> But the fact that just gives you a sense

for the fact there's no sheriff here.

It's basically this is to a certain

extent it's kind of like vigilanteism

that because there's no sheriff around.

We have to enforce the law. So good on

Khi, but it's a it's a terrible

indictment on our lack of regulatory

infrastructure.

>> Agreed. One of them said he was doing it

for a reason to show how bad it was.

Give me a break. Anyway, uh, one more

quick break. We'll be back for

predictions.

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Okay, Scott, we're going to do some

predictions very quickly. So people

know, Warner Brothers shareholders just

approved the deal with Paramount,

although it's facing a lot of regulatory

scrutiny. I suspect it'll get through,

but it's going to be a lot bumpier. And

um so that's going to be an interesting

thing. There's a lot of push back from

Hollywood, all kinds of regulators. Um

so even if it's just reach this step, um

I got my thing in the mail. I own some

Warner shares. Um, thanks for the money,

David. Uh, uh, it's, uh, we'll see where

it goes. I I don't know. There might it

might be a little rockier than than

people think, but they'll probably shove

it through because they've only got a

few months to before Trump loses a lot

of power. Your your prediction?

>> By the way, it's right now on the

prediction markets, it's saying that the

likelihood it closes is around 72%,

which is less than I thought.

>> Yeah.

>> They're saying there's a real there's

like a one in three chance it doesn't

close. Yeah, there's some rockiness

there. Anyway, go ahead.

>> My prediction is that when the SpaceX

value when the SpaceX IPO goes out,

>> you will see an almost not an equivalent

but a proportionate decline in the value

of Tesla

>> because right now investors are paying

for that Elon premium and that is an

inflated multiple in exchange for Musk

charisma and vision. And right now

Tesla's Ford P is 185. That's 12 times

higher than the auto industry. And

basically they're they're paying 12

times what anyone else is garnering in

the auto industry for a car company that

has posted sales declines for two years

in a row. And abroad BYYD has surpassed

Tesla as the largest seller of EVs and

eating away its European share. In

addition,

>> new battery technology they're doing in

China right now that looks really

promising. Go ahead.

>> In addition, robo taxi and Optimus are

longshot bets that may not pay off for 5

years if at all. So essentially all of a

sudden retail investors are going to

have an opportunity to buy into some of

that Elon vision and magic but with

SpaceX. And so I think that magic

acolyte worship of that creates that 185

times earnings of Tesla is going to

massively deflate because I think all of

that idolatry revenue is going to go

into SpaceX.

>> Oh, that's interesting. So boom.

>> So what you'll see is

>> what if he merges it in?

>> Boom.

They need robots at their data centers

in space.

>> You've predicted that for a while.

>> I I was right about the last one.

>> Yeah, you predict. Well, okay, that's a

whole different ballgame. But if there's

assuming they maintain distinct capital

structures, you're going to basically

see just a massive transfer of market

cap from Tesla to SpaceX.

>> The the stuffing gets knocked out of

Tesla. They're not going to make the

robots that are going to run the data

centers in space.

>> I look, I think industrial

industrialized robots are incredibly

exciting. I I think the notion that

you're going to have a robot in your

house bringing you your soup or

whatever. I just don't I don't I don't

see that.

>> I'm gonna have that for you when you're

old in case you're

>> I've already got a Filipino man named

Manny with well moisturized hands lined

up.

>> No, you're getting a robot named

Barbara.

>> You're going to push me around. You're

going to have trouble sitting over the

back of my wheelchair

>> and I'll tell you dirty jokes and you'll

tell me to show

>> hitting you on the head like I can't

believe you said that back in 2014.

>> We're late for our podcast.

They they won a webbby 40 years ago.

>> Yeah, that's true. We won.

>> We didn't talk about the Webbies.

>> Oh my god. We won a Web We won. We won

both web. Both all of us. And also Lost

Boys got one, right? Is that correct?

>> So you won for On with Cara Swisser and

>> Interview.

>> And Pivot won its third year in a row

for best business podcast.

>> And my newsletter, No Mercy, No Malice,

won for best business newsletter. And

>> it's a great business newsletter.

>> Thank you. and Lost Boys won for best

special series co-hosted with uh the

Mooch.

Five Webbby wins between the two of us.

Cara,

>> anyway, uh we appreciate that. We like

the Webbies. We have fun with them.

Anyway, that's a fun show. We want to

hear from you. Send us your questions

about business tech or whatever's on

your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot

to submit a question for the show or

call 8551

pivot. Okay, that's the show. Very good

show, Scott. That was a very good

discussion. I appreciate it.

>> I think I where I came across as

defensive.

>> No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You

didn't. I think I did. No, you didn't.

No, it was called a discussion. Anyway,

>> when will I be enough? Cara,

>> never. Thanks for listening to Pivot and

be sure to like and subscribe to our

YouTube channel. We'll be back next

week.