[music]

I guess the the question that everybody

should be asking themselves is what

should I aim at? And and is there such a

thing as aiming at too many things?

[music]

What what what is a good goal for

change? And when you think about all the

people you've interviewed and the change

you've seen in your own life, what what

does a productive New Year's resolution

or productive goal sound like? And how

do I how do I get there?

>> Yeah, it's very overwhelming. Uh if you

realize, wow, I can do anything I want.

I could look at my entire life.

That's terrifying. That's absolutely

terrifying.

One thing I would say, this is your

opportunity to change anything

behaviorally. You can change [music]

anything you want. Not everything you

want. Right? That's the problem. You can

become anything you want behaviorally,

but you can't be everything you want.

[music] So, you need to pick a small

number. The single best question to work

out what you should be doing next year.

what would have to happen by the end of

2026 for me to look back on 2026 and

consider it a success. I think that

really helps to just give you a bit more

perspective and it usually comes down to

only a few things. You don't usually

have so much in your mind when you do

that.

>> When I asked about the change to your

code that you'd make, you talked about

fixing the striving. What's been the

downside of the striving?

>> There's a a common sense of not

enoughness. like I will be enough when

right because you can either run away

from something you want or run towards

something run yeah run away from

something you fear or run towards

something you want

>> and what's the consequence of that not

enoughness

>> it's a sense of lack it's also a

provisional life it's putting life off I

will be happy satisfied peaceful when

>> and is that a thought you have

>> it's more like an embodied sense feel it

yeah I very much feel it it's this

striving [music] it's this pull this

sort of magnetism moving forward

But yeah, dude. Uh, if your life was a

movie and the audience were watching up

to this point, what would they be

screaming at the screen telling you to

do, it's usually a very reliable

indicator of where you should be putting

your attention. So, as we think about

next year that the things one should aim

at,

>> [music]

>> um, what I've heard you I think you said

on the high performance podcast, you

said you're really obsessed with

understanding what success actually is.

[clears throat]

>> So, I I also just before we go into the

more practical things,

>> Mhm. If someone's sat at home, and I

know people come up to you on your tours

and ask you questions like this a lot.

If they're sat at home trying to figure

out what success actually is for them,

is [music and clears throat] there a

framework or a principle or a method to

figure out what it might mean for them?

You're already doing enough.

>> You're already doing enough. Stop

whipping yourself into submission,

thinking [music]

that your happiness sits on the other

side of the next set of goals that

you're going to achieve. You've already

achieved goals that you said would make

you happy.

>> [music]

>> So if you haven't made it now, if this

isn't when life is going to begin, then

when when when are you going to start?

There's this uh wonderful idea of the

the deferred life hypothesis. Deferred

life hypothesis is basically the sort of

common belief that our life hasn't yet

begun. [music] That what's happening now

is a sort of prelude. It's an intro to

our life truly beginning. And upon

reflection, what a lot of people realize

is that this prelude that they run

through was a mirage that sort of faded

as they approached and they were

actually just running toward the end of

their life. Like they're permanently

putting things off. I get it. People

have got realistic structural [music]

monetary requirements. They've got to

get up. They've got to go to work.

They've got to [ __ ] change their

nappy. They've got to walk the dog.

They've got things that they need to do.

That's not what I'm talking about. My

point is, everybody thinks, a lot of

people think in one form or another that

my life will begin when they're holding

their happiness hostage. They're in a

holding pattern like a plane that can't

land for some reason. It's like, what if

that what if that never changes? What if

your problems in life are never ever

going to go away? What if problems are

always going to be there? What then? Oh,

wow. Well, I'm never going to arrive.

That means I need to start living now.

And I think for me there's definitely a

lot of um I will get there when once the

tasks of today are completed once the

problems are gotten through. There'll

never be a time when there's no problems

in life. Problems are a feature not a

bug.

>> This is an idea you when we talk about

habits and when we read these habit

books we we're often aiming at like the

ninth domino in a set of dominoes. And I

was just thinking then like the

conversation probably needs to start

with what are like the foundational

[music] things. What is the first

domino? Because we know from science

that what I choose to eat is heavily

impacted by my hormone balance today.

And my hormone balance is impacted by my

sleep, my emotional regulation, all

these things. So a lot of people aim at

domino number nine and think, "Oh, we'll

change that one." Having no idea that

actually this is downstream from a set

of other foundational decisions. And I,

you know, even as someone that sits here

with scientists and experts all the

time, if my like core state isn't good,

the chance that I'm going to pick the

right thing or go to the gym is

extremely low. Being smart is basically

pointless unless you're at peace. Like

any amount of intelligence can be

overridden by ego or insecurity or

immorality or bad incentives or

impatience or poor sleep. Yeah, sleep

is, as far as I can see, just it's the

the pebble at the top of the avalanche.

It's the gateway drug to everything else

being horrendous. Your caffeine use is

impacting your sleep. Your phone use is

impacting your sleep. Your alcohol in an

evening time is impacting your sleep. If

you think that you drink in order to go

to sleep, you're not sleeping. You're

sedating yourself. Okay. So, if we can

sort the sleep out, how many other

things open up? But you don't sort the

sleep out. You sort the caffeine intake

out and you sort the nighttime phone use

out and you sort the drinking out and

then oh my god I've got all of this

extra willpower. The thing that I

thought was the issue which was I kind

of always feel a bit tired and sluggish

in the morning or I always want to eat

salty foods around midday or I always,

you know, always just can't think too

straight for the first couple of hours.

It's like the problem might be hiding at

the bottom of the glass. We think the

cause is actually a symptom. I just

noticed this because you know when I I

changed a couple of core foundational

things like exercise and sleep

everything became everything was

lubricated.

>> What's your highest ROI New Year's

resolutions?

>> Oh my highest ROI New Year's resolution.

A terrible resolution.

>> A horrendous resolution. [laughter]

>> Yeah. So 2017 it was go to the gym every

day and I got about four or five months

in. I missed a day. the resolution's

done because it was a it was a

completable resolution in an area of my

life where I didn't I need an

incompletable resolution. So 2018 my

resolution became consistency in the gym

and this is when everything changed

because consistency is a a goal I get a

shot at every day irrespective of what

happened yesterday.

>> And I've got the rule. I've got the

rule. Let me give you the rule. Okay.

This is

>> from all of the habit stuff. James Clear

has been on my show. I think he's been

on your show too.

>> Yeah, he has.

>> Yeah. Uh, best habit book of all time,

Atomic Habits. Of all of the things,

there's only two that have really,

really, really stuck. This is the best

rule when it comes to habits. Never miss

two days in a row. Like, you are not

going to be able to go to the gym every

day. There will be one day when an

absolute catastrophe occurs. You ate

some dodgy sushi last night.

You can't go. But what you have is

one missed day is an error. Two missed

days is the start of a new habit.

[music] And it alleviates this all or

nothing mentality that we all have. If

you put a packet of biscuits in front of

me and you, we say, "You can have none

of them or you can have all of them."

Easy. [music] Tell me to have two of

them. [ __ ] you, dude. I'm not going to

have two. No one has two biscuits,

right? You have all of the biscuits or

you have none of the biscuits. And

that's kind of humans are absolutist

[music] creatures. Like think in

extremes. Yeah. going to be super super

dialed in on my diet and it's going to

be great and I'm going to get up and do

my meditation and do the rest or I'm

going to go full DGEN mode and I'm

partying and it's a bether and so on and

so forth. Like there is no middle ground

really with this and that means that

small errors can snowball into complete

uh demolitions of the habit. But if you

just think okay at some point this year

I'm going to miss it. And the rule is if

I missed it yesterday, I have to do it

today. And that alleviates your issue

which was I cranked it for the first

couple of months and then one day came

in and I thought gh and then the second

day and then I thought well this is just

me now. Procrastination is the avoidance

of discomfort. And he really said that

most of human motivation is just the

avoidance [music] of discomfort because

I I tried to test his idea. I was like

what about having sex? That's surely the

pursuit of pleasure. He was like, "No,

you get horny, which is a form of

discomfort, [music] and in order to

alleviate it, you go and have sex where

you pursue." He said, "All all of our

behavior is driven by discomfort." So,

in your example of I've got a big I've

got to start the manuscript for my new

book, but I end up cleaning the house.

It's cuz sounds like a personal example.

>> No, but it is. It's like, you know, I

remember how long I procrastinated on

starting my new book because it's like

being stood at the foot of Mount Everest

starting a book.

>> It's huge. When you think about

procrastination, [music]

which is part of becoming more

productive,

>> Mhm.

>> what what in your mind are the causes of

me me avoiding the thing that I should

be doing? As far as I can see, there's

two main reasons for procrastination.

The first one is you don't know what to

do. So, you have this big book in front

of you, but nobody's ever written a

book. They've written a sentence and

then that sentence has accumulated over

time into pages and paragraphs and then

a book appears or you've reviewed a

book, you've looked at the edit, you've

made a decision about the color for the

front cover, but you do what's called a

next action from uh getting things done,

David Allen's productivity strategy.

People want a really really great

productivity strategy. Getting things

done by David Allen is is about as good

as you can get.

You do a next action. So, I'm

procrastinating over a task. What is the

[music] next physical action that I can

do that pushes me [music] toward that

goal? I need to write an email. Well,

you better go and open your email

client. Right? If you don't have your

email client open, it is impossible for

you to send the email. Well, actually,

before that, I need to sit down at my

desk. Actually, before that, I might

need to put my pants on. Okay, pants are

on. Hooray. I'm moving. I'm down at the

desk. All right, there we go. I opened

Instagram. [ __ ] Okay, close Instagram.

Email client. That's the next action. So

any bit, what is it like? Uh completing

a marathon is just a [music] ton of

steps one in front of the other. It's

just one foot in front of the other. Do

this really really big thing by breaking

it down into small chunks. That's the

first reason in my [music] opinion for

procrastination. Before we move on to

the second thing, it reminds me of

something Jordan Peterson said to me

about um why people don't change their

life. He said people don't change their

life because the first steps to doing so

are so embar so small that it's like

embarrassing. [music] Correct. And he

told me the story of a guy who he was

trying to get to change his life. This

person wouldn't leave their bedroom,

plates stacked to the ceiling, messy

bedroom. And on day one, he walks in,

they put a vacuum cleaner in there, they

do nothing else. Day two, they come

back, they plug it in, nothing else. Day

three, they come back, they turn it on,

nothing else. And by the end of the 30

days, this guy is out of his bedroom,

his room is clean, and he's out in out

in the world, which he was scared of.

And it always made me think like the the

first step to real change isn't some

great leap which is going to cause huge

cognitive dissonance and discomfort. It

is often so embarrassingly small that we

don't think it's consequential.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think about that with my life all

the time. I'm like actually maybe the

first step here is just [music]

like

buying buying a notepad,

you know, to start writing my book.

There is definitely a sense that [music]

focusing our attention on a small step

kind of reveals the smallalness of our

lives that like, oh my god, I said that

I I sat down at my desk. like how

pitiful is this really how small I've

become. I should have this big cathedral

of achievements and monumental stuff.

You go, well, yeah, but how do you get

there? Got to lay the first break.

[music] Um, so humility, being humble

and uh compassionate to yourself.

[music] Okay, I I I did a thing today. I

went for a walk. Felt like crap. I ate

this bad sushi last night and I, you

know, I did one thing. Did one thing,

one small thing that moved me toward my

goal. So anyway, [music]

and maybe that's because we never get to

see that first small step. We get to see

the outcome. So if I'm thinking about

becoming a podcaster and following in

your footsteps,

>> I see you've got this [ __ ] digital

screen [music] with where you've got

Matthew McConnA sat in the set of I do

>> his movie and I'm thinking,

God, that's a long way to go. What about

matters of productivity? Do you think

much about this? Because again, this

time of year, people are thinking about

procrastination, productivity. They're

trying to get more done. They're trying

not to doom scroll so much, be on

Netflix, waste time. And I think a lot

of the guilt does come from feeling like

we're unproductive.

>> Absolutely. Yeah. There's a wonderful

idea called productivity dysmorphia. So

it's the inability to see your own

success.

>> It's like uh to acknowledge the volume

of your own output. So it sits at the

intersection of burnout, imposter

syndrome, and anxiety.

And you think of it like ambition's

alter [music] ego. basically like the

pursuit of productivity spurs us to do

more while robbing us of the ability to

savor any of the successes that we

achieve along the way. So first off,

people are not particularly good judges

of how productive they are. I think so

many people are whipping themselves into

submission saying you're not doing

enough because in the past that

motivated them to do more

[music] and after a while you have to

accept I'm I'm doing quite a lot. And

[music] if you were an athlete on a

sports team and your coach only ever

pointed at you when you made a bad play,

you wouldn't feel particularly motivated

by that. But a lot of people have this

sense of productivity debt. They wake up

every day feeling as if they're already

behind. And only if they dominate their

entire day perfectly, can they drag

themselves back up to some minimum level

of acceptable output. and only then can

they go to sleep that night without

feeling like a loser. This means that

you your set point is loss and the best

thing that you can do if you crush the

day is get to a draw. You never win. And

then there's this sort of weird drill

sergeant in the back of your mind that's

saying, "All right, you can have a

little bit of a break now, but just so

you know, soon as you wake up in the

morning, it's all going to happen

again." And you know, I'm speaking to a

very particular type of of mindset here

that there is a huge cohort of people on

the internet who do need David Gogggin

[music] screaming in their face telling

them to go harder and sort their life

out. The sort of people that listen to

your show and listen to Modern Wisdom

are

probably not in that camp.

>> Do you know what's surprising? I am in

that camp. I'm in the camp of

productivity dysmorphia.

>> Mhm. Of course you are. Why is that

surprising? Look at what you've built.

How could you not do that with if you

were seeing how much you did?

>> I can't really think of many days, and

just for context, when I wake up in the

morning till, you know, 2 2 a.m. at

night, I'm working. But I can't think of

many days or really none none come to

mind where I've I've got in bed and

thought, you were productive today.

[ __ ] crushed it.

>> You met the standard.

>> Productivity debt.

>> Yeah.

>> You woke up feeling like you're already

behind

>> 100%. because of yesterday and the week

before and the month before and the

to-do list.

>> You see you see your own shortfalls from

a front row seat, right? And this is one

of the curses of people who have big

dreams, goals for themselves. [music]

The the size of their goals is always

greater than their ability to deliver

them. And we assume that by having very

very very high standards for ourselves

[music] that that's what what is it? Um

shoot for the stars and even if you

don't get it, you'll end up on the moon.

Something like that.

>> The clouds.

>> Yeah, whatever. Um, that's great for a

while and it's very good at the

beginning of your journey, but after a

while, I think you just need to give

yourself a [ __ ] break, dude. Like,

people are

[music] destroying themselves in this

perpetual sense of not enoughness.

They're always chasing the next thing.

[music]

So, that's all of that is for me to say

that people uh want productivity, desire

productivity. I'm just trying to say

you're probably working real hard as it

is. [music] That being said, how much do

I think about productivity and how can

we like twist the the knife a little bit

more to give people some some tools?

Best question to ask yourself, uh, if I

could only achieve one thing today, the

start of every day, if I could only

achieve one thing today, what would that

be? You're only allowed to do one thing.

And it's the big thing. It's usually

[music] the scary thing. It's usually

the thing that you probably don't want

to do. How many times does someone go

and clean the cupboard in the kitchen

that hasn't been touched for 6 months?

Rearrange. I'll rearrange all of the

plates because they don't want to have

that conversation with their boss

because they don't want to face that

particular piece of work which is like

big and scary and I don't really know

how to tackle it, how to [music] begin.

You will do everything that doesn't need

to be done in order to avoid the one

thing that does. It's because it's a big

scary task that people will endure

months, years, decades of misery to

avoid a couple of days of pain. And that

makes sense. It's a good trade in some

ways, but over time you're going to

accumulate an awful lot of discomfort.

The other trap that I've noticed in that

is one of my friends had great success

with a new habit with going to the gym

for like 3 or 4 months. He he messages

us in the group chat. He says, "I

finally cracked it. I finally figured

out [music] how to do this." And I said

to him at the time, I said, "Listen,

mate, like the best the best thought

I've ever had that's made my habits be

consistent is the realization that you

never crack it." and actually thinking

about the day when I fall off the horse

and what my strategy is for getting back

on the horse. Like being really really

cognizant of the fact that at some point

I'm going to eat the sushi [music] and

it's going to [ __ ] up my belly or or

[laughter] I'm going to be on a flight

from Australia and I'm going to land and

it's going to be midnight and like

having a strategy to get back on the

horse. And this just deep [music] belief

that you never crack any habit has been

the single most important thing for me

being consistent because when it happens

and I feel unmotivated and [music] that

guilt can creep in and say you [ __ ]

it. I have a I was expecting this.

>> Yes, of course. It's not a a bug, it's a

feature.

>> Yeah,

>> this was the price of entry. It's the

cost of doing business of trying to do

behavior change that it's not always

going to work.

>> Um, another one, another great uh

resolution, 10-minute walk after every

meal. Interesting.

>> Huge huge ROI, dude. Crazy. So, it's

called a postrandial walk. Um, and what

it does is it helps to regulate glucose.

It gets your blood sugar moving, your uh

stomach because of the contrlateral

movement of how your arms and your legs

work. The muscles actually cross across

your stomach, which helps you to digest

food. You know, you have a huge big

meal, you're having a great

conversation, and you sit there and

you're like, "Uh, I mean, this

conversation's so great, but I feel

awful. This This sucks. If you just

after you go out for dinner, uh if

you've got a lunch break from work, eat

your food, 10-minute little walk. Again,

I challenge people to do it and not say

that it makes them feel really good. You

go for dinner, you're with a friend,

you're out with a partner, you're

meeting somebody for the first time,

say, "Hey, do you want to why don't we

have a little stroll?" Sometimes it's

going to be freezing outside, whatever.

You know, do what you can. Let's go for

a little stroll. Makes a huge

difference. Huge difference.