Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> All right. Jamie's very geeked out. I

want to let you know. He didn't want to

say it.

>> Shank is his all-time favorite movie, so

he was kind of freaking out when he met

you.

>> Thanks, Jamie.

>> No problem.

>> I mean,

>> thank you. It's all time. I mean, you're

you're a part of one of like easily one

of the greatest movies in the history of

people.

>> I know. It's such a gift. I mean, when

people come up and say something about

it that it usually is coming from a

pretty deep place, you know,

>> if you didn't like that movie, there's

something you should go to a doctor.

There's you need medication. There's

something wrong with you. It's amazing

movie. And weird that it's a Stephen

King movie, too. You know, he's that guy

is arguably one of the most prolific

guys in the history of fiction.

>> Yeah. And in the same novella, there was

uh Stand by Me, too.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah. So

>> that's amazing.

>> So weird he writes so his stuff his

stuff varies so much. He had to do like

a pseudonym at one point in time.

Remember he did Richard Bachmann cuz he

was turning out so many books. So like

hey we can't keep selling these [ __ ]

Stephen King books and he's like well

how would I come up with another another

name like give me a fake name and he

just started killing it under gota gota

>> Yeah. Wild wild guy

>> man.

>> Yeah. Just a very unusual human. You

know they exist.

>> Yeah. I've only met him once.

>> Really? Yeah.

>> Did you meet him like when you were

filming the movie?

>> Uh around the premiere time. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, he's out there, man.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, during his early days, I'm I'm

fascinated by his early days cuz his

early days he was off the rails with

cocaine and alcohol and some of the best

[ __ ] that he made. He doesn't even

remember read writing it.

>> Wow.

>> I think Coo I think is one of the books

his wife took out of the garbage cuz he

threw it away. He's like, "Fuck this

book. This book sucks." It was it was

Coojo or one of the classics.

>> Yeah.

>> And she was like, "Are you out of your

[ __ ] mind?" Like, "This is

incredible."

>> And he was literally gonna throw it out

cuz he was just out of his mind.

>> He wrote The Shining, right?

>> Yeah.

>> So,

>> was it Carrie?

>> He threw Carrie away.

>> Crazy. Crazy.

>> Crazy.

>> Yeah. Shining was a big movie for a

book. Big book for me. I was, you know,

working in a nineto-five job and, you

know, in between colleges and it really

like woke me up to

>> Yeah.

>> to all kinds of great possibilities in

writing.

>> Well, he hated the movie, which is so

crazy cuz he felt like Jack Nicholson

got insane too quickly.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Cuz in the book, you know, I read

the book, too. It's it's very different.

similar, but it's more of a drawn out

process of him becoming possessed by the

property.

>> A slower roll out.

>> Yeah. He like Jack Nicholson was kind of

kooky already, like right away, which

you know,

>> it's Jack Nicholson. Like it's also

Stanley Cubri. It's like he's got to do

his interpretation of it. You just got

to accept that.

>> Of course. Yeah. That's some scary [ __ ]

in that.

>> [ __ ] man. His books are insane. Yeah.

It's like what is going on inside that

guy's mind or was going on inside that

guy's mind when he was writing that.

>> God knows.

>> I think once he got clean, he kind of

changed and straightened out and

different different human now.

>> But boy, I'm I'm fascinated by the off

the rails days cuz the books were so

nuts.

>> Was was Shawik during that time?

>> I don't know. It must have been. It must

have been because I I don't think he got

sober until

it was decades after his career began.

>> Wow.

>> Some of the great stuff like

I think all the stand I think all that

stuff he was out of his mind and he was

writing all those.

>> But in the midst of all that madness

there's a tenderness, you know. Oh yeah.

That's Oh, a great humanity to it all.

Yeah. but also just a a true

understanding of the darkest nature of

humans and

>> and how they're influenced and then of

course you know demonic possession and

Salem's lot and all that other crazy

[ __ ] like it was just

>> it was so good

>> but then the idea that a library can be

the uh you know in Shashik that the

library can be the liberation.

>> Yeah, you know.

>> Yeah. No, it was it was amazing amazing

movie. Um, we were talking about your

new show, Silo, which I not new. Um,

it's been around for three seasons. I

just started watching it, so it's new to

me. I watched the first two episodes

last night. It was [ __ ] great and

very original and interesting. And I was

telling you before that it made me think

of this place that they discovered

fairly recently in Turkey called Darren

Cuyu. And Darren Cuyu is this

underground city that's massive. I think

it I think it could I think it could

hold 20,000 people.

>> Wow.

>> Something nutty like that.

>> I've seen pictures of it. Yeah.

>> Found completely by accident.

>> Yeah.

>> So, some guy lost one of his chickens,

went through a hole in the wall and

never came back and he was trying to

figure out where this [ __ ] chicken

went. So, he broke down the wall to see

what was going on. And then they

realized that there's this insane

underground city.

>> Oh my god.

>> Yeah. underneath this town in Turkey and

it's massive. Just absolutely massive.

They have no idea who made it. There's

no historical record of it.

>> Any idea of when?

>> Well, you know, they they make guesses

based on stuff they find there, but it's

when you carbon date an object, right?

So, you could go visit the pyramids

today, right? And you could leave behind

some stuff, right? And then

>> everybody dies. Humanity dies out in a

cataclysm. And then a 100,000 years from

now, people start looking through the

the piles of some of these sites and the

pyramids will probably still be there.

And if there was any organic material

left, like a book that you left or, you

know, a leatherbound book or some piece

of wood, they could carbon date that.

And then that would say the time that

you were there, but it wouldn't say the

time the actual structure was made.

>> All right.

>> So, who knows how long people show me

some more pictures of that, please.

>> I was looking up when it was made.

>> Do they know?

>> No, definitely don't know. They they

didn't even know it existed. I mean, it

was When was it found?

>> I feel like it was found in the 20th

century.

>> There must have been some kind of

hostile force that they built it to.

>> Exactly. Or something going on outside.

And not not just hostile, but

environmental.

So 1963, rediscovered in 1963.

>> Wow.

>> That's crazy. is in his [ __ ] house.

Even today, only 10% of it is accessible

to tourists. The rest is still being

explored. That's how nuts it is. So, how

many people do they think it held at

when it was operational? I think it's

something like 20,000 people. I That's

how big this place is.

>> That's amazing.

>> So, they don't know when or why. And

depending on how around 20,000 people

>> plus livestock

>> plus livestock and food stores.

>> Really? How they farmed down there?

>> Who [ __ ] knows? I I don't know. But

they had grain storage. They had all

kinds of stuff down there.

>> Oil presses.

>> 18 levels reaching 85 m. So 280 ft deep

into the ground with ventilation shafts,

wells, stables, wine and oil presses,

storage rooms, chapels, and school

rooms, plus a halfton circular stone

doors that could be rolled shut from the

inside only. So they were obviously

either fighting off some sort of an army

or the outside air was hostile. There

was something going on.

>> Got too hot or something.

>> Could have been.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Well, there's been many moments in the

the time that human beings were alive

where there have been cataclysms. You

know, there's this thing called the

younger desty. That's around 11,800

years ago. There's all this evidence

that there was massive asteroid impacts

all over the earth, comet impacts.

Uh-huh.

>> And they think that it was probably a

reset of civilization. And so this could

have been post that. It could have been

how some people survived in in these

areas.

>> Human beings have this amazing ability

to survive.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, you know,

>> which is silo. I mean, it's it's really

a silo is a modern version of Darren

Kuya.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And here I was, you know,

uh, in the middle of lockdown when I

received those scripts and I was like,

"Oh, this is this is actually talking

about right now."

>> Yeah.

>> This is about a controlled society where

information is censored and where um

compliance is necessary and if you don't

comply, you get sent out into the

hostile environment. Uh, it was all too

uh familiar metaphorically for me.

>> It's perfect timing. Yeah. Perfect

timing

>> because you got to think that he must

have written that before, right?

>> Yeah. Many years ago.

>> So, it was just got lucky.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Perfect synchronicity.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I've been blessed that way in my career.

Yeah.

>> What do you think that's about? Do you

ever wonder why you're so lucky?

>> Obviously, you're very talented, but

it's also there's a lot of talented

people that don't nothing ever happens

for them.

>> I think it comes down to the ability to

say no.

uh at crucial times when I was facing

down either, you know, you know, when I

remember when I first had my uh first

child and I was broke and I got offered

this comedy that was dumb and it was a

million bucks and I needed the money and

I also had an opportunity if I waited uh

Robert Alman was trying to put together

the player. Ah.

>> So I threw caution in the wind and said,

"No, I can't do that stupid comedy."

>> What was the stupid comedy? Do you

remember?

>> Uh, yeah. It was called Folks.

I remember flying out to LA to meet on

it and uh I'm with Alan Arin

and uh he was the guy that was going to

play my father in this thing and he

said, "What the [ __ ] are you doing this

script for?" I said, "I need the money."

He says, "I don't know. I'm not sure I

want to do this thing.

I was like, thank you Alan Arin for

confirming what I was thinking. Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> And so I said no and and then player

came through and shifted my whole

career. So

>> yeah, it's a matter of following that

voice in your head, the instinct, the

one that's telling you this is the right

way to go.

>> Yeah. even though there's all sorts of

influence that want to lead you into the

other direction.

>> There was a period of time uh about 101

15 years ago when I got offered in the

course of

seven months I got offered to play the

head of the CIA three times.

>> Did you ever wonder what that's all

about?

>> I I couldn't even imagine. I mean, for

some reason that was I don't know. I

have no idea. And then a couple years

after that and again, you know, you're

you're looking down at your bills and

your mortgages and stuff and you need

the money and just have to I don't want

to do that. Right? Then a few a few

years after a couple years after that, I

got offered in the course of a couple

months one to play the head of FIFA

>> uh which is a corrupt organization, but

in the movie it was, you know, you know,

they were the best people in the world,

right?

>> Propaganda. Not to mention that the head

of FIFA was a Brazilian and I had, you

know, but they were offering a ton of

money and basically it was FIFA

producing a movie about itself.

>> Oh wow.

>> And uh after that I got a offer to play

the head of the Chilean mine that was uh

had just had this huge disaster and it

turns out the mining company was they

were really nice people you know

according to the script

and it wasn't bad management or anything

or you know that that made the disaster

happen. So, I realized that that the

oligarchs are starting to make movie

about themselves. It's got oligarchical

cinema. It's it's like they produce

movies that make themselves look really

good

>> and you can get away with it.

>> Oh, hell yeah. Nobody knows. Nobody

cares. And they think they can buy

anybody. And they almost bought me, but

I just I have to at times I just have to

look, you know, face it down and say,

"Listen, it it's not right in my heart.

I can't I can't do it."

>> Yeah. Well, that's great. you've got

that north star.

>> It's great that I had the luxury to do

that. You know, often times people don't

have that luxury,

>> right? And one bad decision can pigeon

hole you right

>> in a bad direction and then you'll never

get the ones that you really want,

right?

>> Yeah. These movies about you playing CIA

head, did they ever get made?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, there were TV shows and

movies. Yeah.

>> Was any of it any good?

>> No.

I I remember the I remember when we were

doing movies like uh you know the day of

the condor you know which was like

critical of the CIA and I think now we

have the rogue CIA agents that are

actually good guys and you know listen

CIA you know whatever it does nobody

really knows the extent of what they do

but they do have a lot of good

portrayals in in the media.

>> I think there's good people that are in

the CIA as well and I think that it's

necessary. I just think that they

obviously have unchecked power and

they've done some really [ __ ] shady

[ __ ]

>> Yeah.

>> You know, in in the name of this is the

right thing to do right now, including

selling drugs.

>> Yeah. You know,

>> I remember that. I ran Contra. I

remember that.

>> That's one of I mean, I remember that

because I was gosh, I guess I was either

right out of high school. It was like in

that area where the whole Oliver Stone

thing was on television all the time and

it was just

>> Oliver North.

>> Oliver North, excuse me. Oliver North

and Ronald Reagan and uh there was this

guy uh Jimmy Tingle, hilarious Boston

standup comedian

>> who had a great joke about it

>> where they're interviewing uh Ronald

Reagan and they say, "Mr. President, did

you ever sell arms to people who hate

us?" And uh he he's like, "I don't

remember." He goes, "Well, in the

future, if you sell arms to people who

hate us, jot it down."

>> Make a note of it.

>> He goes, "Put a postit on your

refrigerator."

>> Today I sold arms to Iran.

>> I remember that. That was in the 80s. I

I I did a play about it. I wrote a play

about it. Really?

>> And we performed it with the actors

gang. Yeah. There was a meme that was on

uh social media recently that was it

showed Oliver North during the the whole

Iran Contra trials when you know they

got caught selling drugs in Los Angeles

to fund the Contras versus the

Santinistas in Nicaragua and then he

goes to jail and then then the same guy

you see later on Fox News as like a war

analyst and it's like this hilarious

meme like if you told me if you told me

in 1980 whatever the [ __ ] it was where,

you know, he got in trouble that he

would eventually be the guy that they

call upon for expert advice on what's

going on overseas. Like,

>> yeah, that's a it's a deep connection

that goes back years. All the people

that get it wrong, they get they got

particularly Iraq war, they got anyone

that got it wrong got promotions.

>> Yeah. And no one got in trouble.

>> No one got fired. You know, people in

the media as well, you know, they they

promoted it. They got, you know, better

jobs. Well, this is kind of the only

time in our lifetimes where there's

actual real independent media, you know,

where there's independent journalists

that are not connected to any major

corporations that are operating either

on Substack or online or on YouTube or

on X. It's fascinating because they

they're the ones that are exposing all

these connections that the media and the

Central Intelligence Agency and all

these other government organizations

have had where they've all been working

together forever spinning narratives on

TV. And so like anytime something like

the Iraq war happens where they go, "Oh,

we've got weapons of mass destruction.

We got to go in there." No weapons of

mass destruction. No one no one goes

away. No one gets in trouble. And the

same people are on TV telling you about

some new thing that you have to pay

attention to. It's like this is nuts.

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>> Well, some people get in trouble. People

that come up out against it

>> and there's never any apologies. I I I

did I did I you know, I risked, you

know, a lot to do it and uh you know,

wound up being right, but no one ever

said, "Hey, you were right." You know,

and

>> this was during the Iraq war.

>> Yeah. Um, what did you say?

>> I uh I I I was one of maybe five people

that were famous that came out against

that. Um went on, you know, in various

television shows and made a couple

speeches. I got my uh appearance at the

Baseball Hall of Fame for Bull Durham

15th anniversary or something like

cancelled uh by the head of the the

Baseball Hall of Fame. It was

>> real uh you you know it was funny

because I was

>> I was doing a show at the time and uh I

heard about it and I had I started

writing a response but uh it was already

printed by the time I had my response.

Right. So I got the next day I got a

bunch of um people contacting me. I

hired a crisis PR person for the first

time in my life and uh wound up getting

my letter to Dale Petroski, the head of

the Hall of Fame out there with the uh

with the press release. They were

basically ambushed trying to, you know,

to call me a traitor and all this stuff.

>> Wow.

>> And um so I pushed back and the the

publicist that I had hired was very

smart. He said, "We're going to send

this to all the sports writers." And it

was the sports writers that wrote the

articles defending freedom of speech.

>> Wow.

>> At the time. So it was um

>> what year was this? Is this is right

after 911?

>> This was uh right when we were cooking

up the war, 2003.

So um and I remember you know and I also

wrote a piece about that called Embedded

uh that we've performed for the first

time three weeks after Bush landed on

that aircraft carrier with a mission

accomplished thing. So that wound up

playing it uh across the country. We

toured it and played the New York Public

Theater and played in London. But it was

attacked when we went to New York. you

know, they sent someone uh from that

wasn't a theater critic be while we were

still in previews and published this

thing in uh I think it was the New

Republic uh basically calling me

conspiracy theorist, anti-semite, all

this stuff

>> to try to discredit this play that was

playing at the public.

>> How did they connect anti-semite?

>> You know that it that doesn't matter

that that's what they throw at it. There

was nothing anti-semitic about the play.

Of course,

>> it's it was just a it's it's one of the

things they use to to discredit people.

>> What did you know um about like So, what

made you compelled to come out against

the war? Like

>> I was reading foreign press. I was

reading uh stuff from Europe and um what

they were writing about the weapons of

mass destruction and that there that

there wasn't any evidence and it wasn't

being covered like it was uh here. It

was more open, more

>> transparent. the the reporting and so I

was trusting that and I trusting sources

that I had trusted in the past and uh

realized that when I did question the

attacks were viciferous. So that usually

is a tell like in poker that's like a it

usually means you're on to something.

you're over the mark

>> if they if if you if they when I came

out against that first war in Iraq in '

91

remember the Elder Bush said well you

know this is a democracy people have the

right to oppo you know oppose it and

that that was their response but this

one was like you're a traitor you're

Saddam supporter terrorist sympathizer

all that stuff they really attacked and

that told me that uh was probably over

the target you know so

>> yeah that had to

a very disturbing moment because look,

it turns out you were right. And not

only were you right, but now today in

2026, it's universally accepted that

there were no weapons of mass

destruction. That was a terrible war and

it was not something that should have

ever happened.

>> Yeah.

>> Universally. Like if you said it today,

it's not even remotely controversial.

>> Yeah. Well, that's the way it works.

They finally they admit the truth later.

You know, I think they're doing that now

with co, you know, the Fouchi is going

to do his thing tomorrow. I very curious

to see what happens with that. So,

>> well, they don't give you a universal

pardon for 10 years

if you didn't do something. I mean, you

don't you don't campaign for that if

there's not some

>> some smoke. Yeah, that was a very scary

time that, you know, it was, you know,

to come out when when people when when

the when the media is attacking you,

it's a very scary thing. But the great

good fortune I had uh in 2003, so living

in New York at the time, right? So, I

would have to walk my kids to school and

uh I remember thinking, "Oh my god,

what's going to happen?" You know, are

there going to be people yelling at me,

etc. And that wasn't the truth. The

truth was that people if anything said

you know way to go

>> right

>> uh thanks for speaking for us and if

they disagreed they said you know you

have the right to do it that's the way

generally people are in this country

>> and should be

>> and and we I usually would take uh every

year I would take my kids to um the

final four and that year it was in San

Antonio and I remember thinking oh my

god I'm going down to Texas and they're

going to yell at me down there and no

one said a damn thing. So the reality on

the ground was a lot different than the

reality they were creating. The reality

they were creating was to intimidate

other people into silence.

>> It wasn't based on any kind of real

reality of people being angry at me. It

was more uh them trying to intimidate

others.

>> And so that same thing kind of happened.

And I I recognized that same smell uh

when COVID was happening when people

came out uh and started asking questions

and were deplatformed or um marginalized

or cancelled and uh you know I I I

followed what you were going through

with the the Ivormectin which was

>> uh a drug that I had taken and you know

I had lost my sense of smell and a day

later it was back. So I I knew there was

something going on with that. And and

you know, in an emergency, why not find

whatever you can treat until your magic

potion arrives, you know?

>> It wasn't just that. It was like the

completely disingenuous characterization

of it as a veterinary drug and calling

it horse paste or horse dewormer, which

is crazy. Yeah. It's crazy to because

maybe that would have worked in 1980

when people would have to go to the

encyclopedia to find out what Imekin

really was. But when you're trying to do

that in 2020, it's just too easy to look

up, oh look, it got a Nobel Prize for

use in human beings. Oh, it's great for

yellow fever and deni fever and river

blindness and oh, this has been used

billions of times. Oh, it's one of the

safest. Oh, wait, wait a minute. It's in

the World Health Organization's

essential medicines list. Yeah, this is

crazy. But yet on television it's horse

dewormer. And even the Rolling Stone had

an article where they showed people

waiting in line. They said that people

in Oklahoma were waiting in line at the

emergency room with gunshot wounds

because they couldn't get in there

because so many people were overdosing

from ivormectin,

>> right?

>> Which is just fake.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's in the Rolling Stone and you're

like,

>> "What is going on? This is this is

insane." Even the photograph was fake.

The photograph showed people wearing

winter coats because really the line was

people waiting for a flu shot. That was

the actual line, right? And they were

trying to say that these are people

waiting in line to go to the emergency

room for a gunshot wound. Like first of

all, how many [ __ ] people are getting

shot in Oklahoma? Like what what's going

on over there? Are you having gunfights

on the streets?

>> Wild stuff going on at the time, you

know, the disinformation and the

>> Yeah. And just orchestrated propaganda.

Orchestrated organized.

>> Yeah. with big money behind it. Wild.

Wild to watch.

>> I I suspect that that whole period of

time was another way to divide us, you

know, in the in the in the in the larger

picture. You know, the

>> orchestrated chaos masquerading as a

revolution. you know, it's it's it's

there's been so many of those things

over the past 5 years, you know, that

have

>> you know, alliances that you're building

and then all of a sudden there's a new

crisis and now you don't like those

people that you were building alliances

with. And it's just one after the other.

And I ultimately at the end of the day,

I think it's all about division. It's

all about dividing us uh and making us

argue with each other, not finding

common ground. And uh that's ultimately

the strategy that's been used from time

and memorial, you know, for p the power

to stay in power. How do you get people

fighting with each other,

>> right?

>> Yeah. People don't like to hear that,

but that's that's a strategy that's been

used all throughout history. Yeah. And

it's a good one. Yeah. It works. And

especially in today's day and age when

you have social media and then you have

not just our government but many

governments that have fake accounts and

these people just get outraged about

things or attack things or you know have

a narrative that they push and you don't

know if it's real people. You don't know

what it is. It's just a bunch of

accounts. You go to the accounts, a

guy's face, you know it's a woman

wearing a dress holding a book. She

seems normal. Meanwhile, it's a man

somewhere with a bank of computers that

are all connected to the internet that's

typing in these different responses with

a bunch of different or now it's AI

automated. Yeah. You know, you tell this

bot to be a a right-wing nationalist

that's like attacking anything that's

>> Yeah, it's crazy, man. It's on both

sides and it's nuts. It's I I was over

in London doing a project and um I I

noticed this was during their lockdown

and I noticed by my hotel there was this

protest and I I went down to check it

out, put my mask on. I was very

compliant at the start of all this and I

uh I noticed, you know, what they were

portraying as national front

right-wingers was actually hippies and

homeopaths and free speech activists.

And I I talked to them and I tweeted uh

hey I don't think it's a right left

thing here and

hundreds of attacks of is that whether

they're bots or you know organized army

of you know righteousness I have no idea

but it was I just at that time at that

point I was just like [ __ ] it I'm not

going to not going to put my foot in

this water. These people are nuts. This

is a crazy crazy time. Yeah, it was

crazy. Not just from the propaganda

perspective, but from actual people that

I knew that were really terrified that

got caught up in it all. And it was, you

know, mass formation psychosis is what

some people called it. And I think

that's a a good description of Robert

Malone, I think, termed that or got that

from somebody else. But that that's

really what it was. Like everybody just

kind of went nutty. And there was people

that were doing the government's job for

the government or the pharmaceutical

drug company's job for them. They they

were the the ones that were enforcing

all these things. Yeah. And they they

were doing it because they wanted to be

they wanted a solution. They wanted to

be correct. And unfortunately, there's a

lot of people in this world that don't

experience much real adversity. And when

real adversity comes at them, they fall

apart and they don't they don't know

what to do and they get scared and they

they lump up together in teams and then

they reinforce each other and repeat the

same things and and they all want to to

be a part of the right side of history

or the right side of whatever it is.

>> And also they're being led to believe

that that's the virtuous thing to do and

and you know so it's not like they're

you know their their intentions are

good,

>> right? Uh and um because of that, you

know, I've I've had a similar experience

where, you know, friends of mine and um

people I love that, you know, fell into

that as I did. I fell in into it for a

while, you know, that kind of fearbased

kind of

>> behavior. And um

>> I just uh I I've come to understand in

my later years that one of the things

that's truly liberating is the ability

to say, "I don't know."

>> Yeah. and I may have been wrong. That

these are two things that have led to

such great discovery for me. Um, it's

it's I I really don't trust anymore. I

don't trust virtuous experts. I don't I

don't think uh I don't think experts are

are or are

I don't believe in experts. I I I think

if you if you consider yourself an

expert, you you're done learning. you're

done speaking with others.

>> You're done challenging yourself. And uh

when we put our faith and trust in

people that are deemed experts, it

ultimately throughout my experience,

it's it's led to bad things. Um the

experts that talked about weapons of

mass destruction, the experts that talk

about, you know, various things that

have led us to uh violent altercations

throughout the world. I don't I don't

trust them anymore. I I I trust the idea

that there are many sides to a story and

that there is very um there's a lot to

be gained from having dialogue with

people you disagree with.

>> Absolutely. I mean, you know, there are

experts in some fields and we do need

them. It is important. Like if you want

information about the Large Hadron

Collider, you don't understand like what

what are they what are you guys doing

over there? like you need to talk to

someone who actually understands it,

who's an expert on particle colliders,

you know, and it takes a long time to

develop that sort of knowledge base and

have an understanding of what they're

actually trying to accomplish. What is

the Higs Bosen? What was this particle

that is a part of that? What is the

early stages of the universe? Okay,

>> you're going to measure it. I'll be in

the bar.

>> It exists for a quarter of a second or

something like that. What what are you

guys doing? Yeah, but the the problem is

like to bring it back to co one of the

things that Fouchy said that was so

wild. He said when you are criticizing

Anthony Fouchy, you're criticizing

science.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, that is one that just the fact

that he felt so confident that he could

say that that is such a crazy thing to

say and then science became like an

object religion.

>> Well, science is supposed to be data.

It's supposed to be measuring data and

it's supposed to never be settled. And

it's always supposed to have a bunch of

people from various various positions of

viewing down on this thing, analyzing it

with new new studies, new data, new

tests, new hypothesis, working out and

communicating with each other. It's not

supposed to be a brick like, you know,

like this is a brick. If you question

the brick, like no, no, this is a

[ __ ] fluid thing that exists only if

you allow people to ask questions. The

moment you stop questioning data then

like and even real experts like guys

from MIT and Harvard were getting

deplatformed off of Twitter because they

didn't believe it. They were saying look

I don't think this lockdown idea is a

good idea. I think it's bad for

children. I think children aren't even

really susceptible to this disease. Like

why we why are we doing this? Like

what's going on?

>> It became a faith. It it became dogma.

And if you question the dogma, you were

a heretic.

>> Yeah.

>> You were kicked out of the religion.

It's it's uh it's was a scary time and

still is scary. You know, we deal uh the

actors gang u my nonprofit in Los

Angeles. We have education programs and

um we've been dealing with the the

ramifications of that lockdown for the

last 5 years. You know, this kids are,

you know, had two years robbed of them,

right,

>> from socialization and education.

>> And imagine that was your senior year of

high school, too.

>> Oh my god. You know,

>> [ __ ] And we're we're dealing with the

the the the after effects of that. And

uh gratefully uh the kind of work we do

brings them out again. And you know get

some expressing emotions, making eye

contact, uh having experiences with

other children and that are productive.

And you know it you the good news is you

can get out of that funk. But that was

this it was really scary to see those

kids walk in to classes uh after that

lockdown cuz they wouldn't make eye

contact looking at the floor, you know,

kind of desocialized and traum

traumatized and you know, it was really

scary.

>> Critical development time for them.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely.

>> Yeah. And all of a sudden they're

wearing like imagine being a toddler and

all a sudden everyone has a mask on and

>> Yeah. It's weird.

>> You you don't want to wear the mask.

They keep trying to take it off and

people yell at them, put it back on. And

so it's like terror and anxiety and

confusion. Also, you're not reading

people's faces, which is like an

important part of the developmental

process. You get to know people, you

read faces, you see how people talk. All

of a sudden, everyone's wearing a mask,

everyone's robbing a bank. Like, this is

crazy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I I I've

tried to approach it all with uh just a

openness and a compassion for people

that went through that. You know, I I

don't attach blame. I don't, you know,

everyone there was a pretty

sophisticated propaganda machine that

was happening. And I I have great

compassion for people that fell into

that. And I I I I

you know, I just want us to not do it

again, you know. I want us to have the

uh knowledge and the

the consciousness to not fall for that

again.

>> Yeah. Hopefully. It's just it it was

very eye opening that it was so easy to

pull off, you know, that it was so easy

to get people to just gang up like that.

It was just

>> it said it it was it said a lot about

us.

>> Yeah.

>> Unfortunately. And um you know uh I I

hold faith in humanity, but that was uh

that was a um that was a tough one.

>> I do as well. And I think it was a

learning moment for a lot of people

whether they admit to it or not, whether

they're public about it or not, because

I know a lot of people that just weren't

public about their descent, but they

really didn't like any of it. And they

just didn't really have a position to

talk about it. And you know, they wanted

to keep their job and wanted to keep

their place in the community or whatever

it was that they were trying to protect

and they kept their mouth shut. But

you'd get a couple of drinks in them

when they were alone, they would tell

you. Well, that begs the larger question

is, you know, is it freedom of speech?

If when you freely speak, your job is

threatened and your future is

threatened. Is that are we living in a

free society, you know?

>> Right.

>> Um

it's uh and that that's still that's not

just co that's a that's a lot of things.

That's

>> is a lot of things. It's almost

everything. Yeah.

>> And it it's one of the most important

things that we do is we disagree. We we

talk. You you have conversations and

>> it's the only way to learn

>> and you get exposed to information that

maybe you didn't know before you

establish this opinion that you're

arguing.

>> Do you know what was the big tragedy in

my opinion uh during that time period is

that we totally lost the water cooler

conversation. that accidental

conversation that happens at work with

the a coworker who you don't necessarily

agree with, but it's a human being

expressing something to you in in in

person and you have to deal with that

person and their opposing viewpoint.

>> Yeah. uh we got into our own silos of

thought

>> and algorithms of thought and everything

we experienced during that period of

time was an affirmation of what we

believed

>> rather than a challenge to it.

>> Yeah.

>> And so the water cooler was completely

eliminated. the idea that the accidental

conversation at a bar um where you're,

you know, watching a game on the

television and someone sits next to you

that is not necessarily of your belief

system, but you buy them a beer and you

watch the game together. You know,

>> all these moments of uh meeting up that

were were eliminated.

>> And uh you know, that's what I love

about sports. I love that you can go

watch a game and not think about

politics or not think about your

differences and think about the team

that you like and

>> and and support them together. Same

thing with theater or any kind of

gathering of of of individuals, music.

Uh

>> um you the what I love about the theater

that we do is that we're able to take

people to a common emotion and we never

want to have a completely

uh I don't we don't want audiences that

think the same, right?

uh you want a disperate amount of people

uh different beliefs that you can get

them to share a common emotion and get

them to laugh together, get them to feel

something and cry together. Uh that is a

that's the community you're able to

build when you're doing a show as you

know. You know, you you what really

pissed me off was that when we're we had

a we have a theater in Los Angeles and

it was two years we had to be closed.

Uh, and a year and a half in, we were

told we could open, but we'd have to

check vaccine passports at the door.

And, and I talked to some people at the

theater, and we agreed there was, no, we

can't do that. Because what that is

doing is it's basically saying the only

people allowed in our theater are people

that agree with what the government

wanted. And that for me is not a

theater. that betrays the whole purpose

and function of what a theater should

be. It's a gathering place for the

community that might think differently

to bring them together.

>> And this was saying basically if you

agree you can come in

>> and that so we waited another six months

before we opened the theater until

everyone could come in.

>> Yeah. Um, there was a time where you had

to have a vaccine passport in order to

perform and uh I there was an exemption

in New York and you had to have a

vaccine uh passport if you wanted to go

to a show, but you didn't have to have

one if you were performing and I did

Madison Square Garden. So, the whole

audience had to have vaccine passports,

but I didn't. M.

>> And so there was a senator, I forget who

it was, that was proposing a a a new law

based on me sleep sneaking through the

loophole that performers should have to

be vaccinated as well. And he was upset

that I didn't have a that I wasn't

vaccinated and that I was performing.

>> You could have infected the entire

Madison Square.

>> I could have been a super spreader.

Yeah. But

>> well, you know, in London, uh they spent

a lot of time over there the last five

years, but they their uh West End

rebounded immediately

uh unlike Broadway. Uh and the reason it

did is because during that time period,

you could show a vaccine passport, but

you could also show a negative test. So,

they didn't demand that you have a

vaccine. So, they didn't lose their

audience. Their audience came right

back. And in Broadway, they basically

told a third of their audience, "You're

not welcome."

And so, I can see why it might have been

a struggle to get those people back into

the theater.

>> Well, it was it didn't make any sense.

Like, if the people are negative,

they're negative. What do you give a

[ __ ] if they're vaccinated? Also, what

about people that got COVID and then

recovered from it who have far superior

immunity, 7x superior immunity to people

who were vaccinated? Like, what are you

what are we doing here? Like this is you

are you you're doing the pharmaceutical

drug company's work for them.

>> Yeah.

>> You and you're making people follow

along and in lock step and it's just

nuts. It just didn't even make sense

that people were going along with this.

>> Yeah.

Well, glad that's in the rear view

mirror.

>> Yeah. For now. But, you know, I feel

like it's a case study in a lot of I

mean, if if there are people that are

man manipulating society and I think

there are, there's a lot of lessons that

they learned from how we behave and you

know, relatively speaking without making

light of the pandemic, relatively

speaking, a fairly mild pandemic in

terms of like, you know, the bubonic

plague and all sorts of other things

that have happened throughout history,

the Spanish flu have killed way more

people. Like, it could have been way

worse, right? So just one that was just

twice as bad as the flu got people to

behave like that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the good news is

though um the uptake wasn't uh

you know a lot of people took it because

they had to. It wasn't like

enthusiastically taking it. Uh we did a

play called Topsy Turvy which was about

lockdown and we performed that in

Eastern Europe and um it was really

interesting to see their response there

because uh I would uh one of them said

afterwards you know I asked uh you know

what was the uptake on the vaccines in

in Romania and they said something like

40%. And I said, 'Well, how do you

explain that? And they said, 'Well, you

know, we lived under the Soviet Union

for many years, so we know how to look

like we comply when we're not complying.

And I said, "What else reminds you of

the Soviet Union?" They said, "Without a

doubt, cancel culture." I said, "Why?" I

said, "Well, Soviet Union used to keep

files on all of us, right? So, as long

as you're a good party member, there

wouldn't be a thing said."

>> Yeah. But um once you stepped out of

line, they brought out that old file.

Now that affair with your secretary from

30 years ago is going to ruin your life.

They're going to ruin your family.

They're going to kill your career. And

they're going to make a big public

display of it to show other people to

stay in line. And um they felt like

cancel culture was basically operating

in the same way as the Soviet Union did.

And it was really interesting to see

that perspective in Eastern Europe.

people that have, you know, lived under

that kind of oppressive

situation and their perspective on

modern day.

>> That must have really made you think

about what happened to you during the

Iraq war.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> Because that in particular because back

then there's no real social media

>> and there's no real way to get your

message out.

>> Oh man, they they lied. They made up

they made up things. Yeah, they made up

this I was I was doing this play

embedded at the time at the Public

Theater and we'd go out afterwards and

uh the New York Post wrote that I was

making out with a woman under a palm

tree at this club and I it was it was

just they just made it up and got me in

you know didn't really help my marriage

at the time and you know they just lie.

They basically lie you know they'll

attack you. They just decided you were

an enemy and they were going to pull out

whatever stops they can.

>> Discredit you in whatever way they can.

>> Wild.

>> Yeah. That's a powerful thing when it

hits you and and and you realize, oh my

god, the the truth doesn't matter here.

>> Yeah. Well, that's what's so scary about

it is that in this country where freedom

of speech is supposed to be one of the

cornerstones of our society, it's one of

the most important things we all

recognize. It separates us from

everywhere else in history. like this is

the first country we're really it's

written into the the doctrine of the

country. You're supposed to have the

freedom, the ability to express yourself

and that this is being attacked and

suppressed in all sorts of different

ways. Not just stopping your ability to

express yourself, but attacking you in a

concerted effort and lying about you,

just lying about you in order to scare

other people. It's very Orwellian and

it's very unamerican. And the fact that

like the New York Post would do that to

you or whoever it was from the New York

Post would do that like what the [ __ ]

man.

>> Well, the good news is there's no

goologs.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, they don't arrest you in the

middle of the night and right

>> force you to into some kind of prison

thousands of miles away.

>> Sure, it could be worse. Yeah. But it's

not it's not along the line of the

American way of life, you know. And if

you if you are a person who really does

appreciate what this experience in this

this experiment in

self-government, which was the United

States, it's it's supposed to have free

discourse. That's a big part of it. The

founding fathers recognized that. You've

got to have the ability to talk about

things,

>> right?

>> And if you don't, we're [ __ ] Because

if someone can tell you what you can and

can't say, that's step one. And then

everything else falls in line after that

and next thing you know you've got a

dictatorship,

>> right? And that and there's people that

have you know lost opportunities or you

know uh in show business that uh

recently that uh including my ex Susan

Sandon who uh you know was against the

what was happening in Israel and lost

her agent and you know is having a hard

time finding work. This is

>> crazy.

>> This is nuts. Yeah. And especially

someone like Susan Sandon, like one of

the most respected and established

actors of many generations, like she's

been around forever.

>> The fact that a a take on something that

if you're just looking at it like what

what is what are how could you defend

that? Like how could anybody defend

that? I don't even know how many people

are dead. You have a complete wipeout of

a city. Like 90% of Gaza is gone or

whatever the percentage is. You look at

the buildings. You look at what it used

to look like. You look at what it looks

like now. Like this is defensible.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and the and I think the

point of it is to make a show of it and

to say, "See, we we could do that to

her, so we could do it to you." So, shut

the [ __ ] up.

>> Yeah. You know.

>> Yeah. Especially the timing of when you

do it, right? If you're against Gaza

now, it's uh safer than being against

what happened uh a year and a half ago,

say, you know, especially close to

October 7th. If you were one of the

early like Roger Waters, one of the

early people talking about this is this

is you're watching genocide in real time

and

>> they they came for that guy.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, more people see it the way

he sees it now. And just like what

happened to you with the Iraq war,

you're 20 years from now, it's going to

be a universally accepted opinion, I

bet.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that it's just

it's crazy to go through something like

that and for you to have gone through it

like really early on, you know, for you

to have gone through that in 2003.

I guess it really does inform your

opinions though, like when you see

things that are happening today, you go,

"Okay, I've seen this before."

What I started looking for uh after that

was a way to uh be someone that was more

involved with uh something that could

affect change. In other words, um I used

my uh nonprofit. We started a prison

program uh 20 years ago and we see the

the change that happens. We we you know

we have people that go in and basically

offer rehabilitation

uh in the form of uh theater and not

doing plays or anything but getting

people to uh play emotions through

characters that we introduce to them.

And in doing so uh unlocking uh emotions

that have been suppressed for many many

years. So in prison there there's one

go-to emotion. It's it's anger. That's

your survival face. That's your mask on

the yard. You have to be a badass or

you're going to die. But um uh sadness

is compromising, fear is compromising,

and happiness is genuinely not

encouraged either. Uh so we get these

guys in a room, we get introduce them to

these stock characters from the Kameda

Delerte, and then they have to express

their emotions and make choices in with

their emotions in improv. And what they

find is that if uh someone approaches

them in anger in an improv, the

facilitator will encourage a different

emotion in response to anger than anger,

right? And what they come to understand

is that they don't have to respond to

anger with anger. There are other

choices and in in fact in real life they

can do that too if they can do it in an

improv. And so what happens is these

people tap into long dormant emotions

and start to understand that they are

more than the worst act that got them

there. Um they they uh tend to um create

bonds across gang ties, racial lines. Uh

we when we're putting together a group,

we ask that rival gangs are in the same

room with each other.

>> Oh wow. And um what happens is these

bonds are made through the sharing of

emotion. Like we get these guys into an

improv where they're all putting a

flower on a grave of someone and saying

something under their breath about the

person that's deceased. And then at some

point the facilitator will say, "Now

look at each other." And they're looking

at each other with these eyes of

sadness. And they realize they have a

lot in common. you know, in that shared

emotion. I had two guys come up to me,

one black guy, one white guy. Uh they

said, "We got to tell you what happened

two weeks ago. We were our shot callers

said, you know, we're going to have a

fight on the yard." And so, you know,

they never you never question the shot

caller. And so, you know, this going to

happen, you know, and so what they did

was they found each other, these two

guys, and they rolled around on the

floor acting like they were killing each

other.

Wow, how convenient.

>> Yeah.

>> So, uh, it looked like they were

participating, but they weren't hurting

each other.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah,

>> that's a good solution.

>> It's amazing what happens when you

experience something that like that in

person, when you see the transformation

happen, and we see this in in our school

children as well. That's something that

is deeply inspiring. you you know that

you've had something to do with some

some a real change right uh whereas for

years I was asked to you know attend

fundraisers and you know various causes

and uh I you know it's yeah it's great

that they're doing that and it's great

that they're raising money for these

organizations that need it but at the

end of the day you don't really feel

like it did anything other than go to a

dinner and uh this was a way to get my

hands dirty and really, you know, get in

the struggle of it. And I found it to be

so um so much more satisfying as far as

that whatever inclination I had towards

activism was was really fed by this as

opposed to hopping from fundraiser to

fundraiser.

>> It just felt more real. It felt like

something that I could take that

experience and then I could say to my

group, "Let's expand. Let's get into

more and more prisons." So now we're in

18 prisons in the state of California

doing these programs.

>> Did you have to develop a a curriculum

like how how you begin to reach out to

these guys and how you set it up like

how you

>> It took a couple years uh you know kind

of pilot program in one prison uh in

Chino in uh and Norcco in uh Southern

California. Um trial and error you know

uh what what's the way to do it? What's

the way not to do it? Uh, of course you

go through a training with the prison

system of certain things to watch out

for and you know um you develop these

lines where you say you know we're here

to do this not to talk about your case.

You know there's all kinds of things you

learn how to avoid the distractions that

will derail the program. But uh

essentially it's a very physical way of

working and it's also uh there is a lot

of fun in it. So those two things

together um allow the entry for these

guys that are you know they're in the

room because they want to be there but

it's weird stuff we're asking them to do

>> and uh if they can have a laugh about it

and then something about it shifts some

kind of consciousness inside them that

that that means something to people. You

got to remember these people are, you

know, when we started there was only one

other

uh program in the in the state of

California that was offering

rehabilitation through any theater. So

uh there was a couple music programs and

uh two two theater programs and now

we've were able to lobby the state to

get more funding for arts and

corrections. Uh because arts art is a

transformer, you know, it is something

that can shift consciousness. I truly

believe that. I've seen it with my own

uh the work that I've done. You know,

I've seen how uh people can think in a

different way after they see something

in the theater or in the movies or, you

know,

>> a good a good standup can do the same

thing. You know, how George Carlin used

to shift my consciousness every new

special because he would always be

challenging me.

>> Sure.

>> He he it wouldn't be like, "Hey, hey,

you know, we're all in the same club."

It would be, yeah, we you thought we

were in the same club, but here's a

here's a little thought. And you realize

he's talking right at one of your

hypocrisies.

And that was his genius. It was his

ability to really tap into we can be

better,

>> right?

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Yeah, there's been a few guys like that

throughout history that really have

figured out a way to embed humor into

social commentary.

>> George Carlin's probably the most known

for it. But do you know about Bill

Hicks?

>> Yeah, for sure.

>> So, he was probably in my generation,

he's the one that twisted people

>> the most to like a lot of comics would

watch him and go, I what am I doing? Why

am I doing what I'm doing? This guy's

doing something that's like so much more

meaningful.

>> Yeah. Who was it in Apatile's

documentary about Carlin? There was a

comedian that said

uh George Carlin was basically in the in

the early part of the century in the

1900s

>> Phil philosophers debating used to be a

huge deal, right? Like hundreds of

people, thousands people come watch

people debate to different points of

view.

>> Sure. He said that's that's what the

current philosophers of our generation

are the better stand-up comedians.

>> The ones that test your belief system by

saying something that you know might be

controversial or you know challenges

your worldview.

>> That's the whole the great purpose and

function of a philosopher or a stand-up

comedian is to take your worldview,

shatter it a little bit and make you

rethink.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and Hicks was sort of

for our generation, he was like the

first guy that really did that in a way

that like some of the things that he

said weren't even designed to be funny

at all. It was just designed to make you

think about things differently and then

he would hit you with some funny things

after that. Sort of keep you occupied.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Prov provocative uh statements that you

know the first reaction is [ __ ] that.

No, that's not true. [ __ ] that. And then

you realize, oh [ __ ] he's bringing me

there. And it's like a a great play can

do that, too. A great movie can do that,

too. Provoke you and challenge you and

then make you refocus, rethink.

>> Yeah. It's just amazing how little of

that we have today and how much content

we have today. Do Did you ever see the

documentary um God, what is it with the

the documentary with William F. Buckley

and uh the other

>> Yeah. You know what I'm talking about.

>> Gorvidal

>> and Gorvidal. Yeah. Yeah. Where they had

these It was I guess it was NBC I think

it was and NBC was failing in the

ratings.

>> I was going to say Relentless Enemies,

but that's the line.

>> Best of enemies.

>> Best of enemies.

>> Best of enemies. Yeah.

>> Great documentary. Yeah. So they had a

series of these debates on television.

Gorvidal being a progressive and William

F. Buckley being a conservative. Very

interesting because th this kind of

hadn't happened before on television

where you have these long- form

discussions with these two guys just

intellectually jabbing at each other.

Yeah.

>> And it was great. It's like the the

documentary is really amazing.

>> I uh I I was friends with Gore.

>> Oh, really?

>> Yeah. Uh he uh I he uh agreed to do my

first film, Bob Roberts, which is about

a a right-wing folk singing candidate

for Senate in Pennsylvania. And um Gore

agreed to play Brickley Paste, my uh

Democratic opponent, right? And so he

played a politician, which is something

he always kind of flirted with in his

real life. There he is.

>> And so I got to be uh quite friendly

with him. And um I actually did a

documentary that I'm editing right now

uh about four soldiers from World War II

that became great writers. uh Gore, Kurt

Vonagget, um Norman Mailor, and Howard

Zinn are all in this uh documentary. I'm

I'm I filmed it many years ago, shelved

it, and now I'm uh in the final stages

of putting it together. I'm opening a

new website in uh uh September 1st and

this is one of the many things that I

have in my vault and my storage units

that I've just been getting out over the

past year and finding all this crazy

stuff that I have that I've never

finished because I've been going from

project to project to project. So, I

slowed down a little bit and just opened

up some sealed boxes and uh it's it's

been really fun. It's one of the things

is uh also I used to [ __ ] around on film

sets with this you know when I had

enough money to buy a video camera for

the first time and so I started making

these little short films on on movie

sets and uh one of them is uh there's

two films from uh when I was doing

Howard the Duck

and you know one of those endless

productions that just went on and on and

on. So, I just started amusing myself by

making my own little short films and one

including, you know, I'm sure illegally

using the duck itself, you know, um,

which I made a character in one of the

films.

>> I forgot about Howard the Duck.

>> Crazy. We walked on the set the

>> What a [ __ ] weird movie that was.

>> I know, right? We We walked on the set.

I walked on the set the first day and

knew we were in trouble.

Why'd you know

>> the puppet? It wasn't ready.

>> And uh it was a little too cute. If you

look at the comic book,

>> right?

>> Uh Howard the Duck was not that cute.

>> No, he was a cigar smoking kind of

shitty mean duck.

>> Yeah. Kind of Fritz the Catish like, you

know, like really kind of

>> borderline obscene. And

>> it was a Marvel comic, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And so, um, do you have an image

of the old Howard the duck from the

comic? Yeah, that guy.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I walked on the set and I saw that

cute duck. I was like, uhoh.

>> Yeah. He was always with chicks. Look at

>> Always with chicks. Yeah.

Which was very weird. Like, hey lady,

what are you doing? You're [ __ ] a

duck. What's going on here? Beastiality.

Like, what is this? What is his charm

got you? Like, what is what's the

message there?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So,

>> he's a strange character.

>> Very strange. And I don't think they had

the technology to pull it off.

>> Um I remember

>> you need to try again now.

>> Yeah, it' be good. I could take the old

film and animate it.

But um you know, I I I spent six weeks

on that film doing an ultralight chase

that lasted maybe two minutes in the

film.

>> What's an ultralite plan?

>> You know what the ultralight planes?

Basically, it's you and the wings.

>> Mhm. and a motor. And so there's a chase

sequence at the end that's about 2 and a

half minute, 3 minute long.

>> Did you actually have to get in one of

those things?

>> No.

>> I mean, I got in like a fake one.

>> Good.

>> Yeah, cuz No, you you have to be You

have to fly it. The guy

>> Yeah, you you have to That's fake, of

course. Right.

>> The duck's real

>> looks so legit.

Yeah. But

>> was that one of those ones where your

your little voice you didn't listen?

>> No, not at all. Because that was early

in my career, right? So it was George

Lucas, remember? And he just done George

Lucas.

>> Yeah. And he just done Star Wars.

>> Whoa.

>> So it was it had to be good, right?

>> He went from Star Wars to Howard the

Duck.

>> Well, he produced Howard the Duck.

>> Okay.

>> But he had just produced Star Wars. So,

you know, it was like, hell yeah. Right.

>> I don't know. It doesn't make sense on

the page, but

>> he'll figure it out. They'll figure it

out.

>> I was so lucky, too. Again, blessed

because I got a movie called Five

Corners that was with Jodie Foster and

John Turo uh right around the same time.

So, I was I'd already done that movie

when Howard came out.

>> So, it's kind of saved my ass. You

already had one in the chamber.

>> Yeah.

>> You had a good one on the pipe.

>> Yeah.

>> Thank god.

>> It just I wonder why George did it. Like

it seems so odd to try to do a movie

with a talking duck.

>> Yeah. Well, maybe it made sense when

they imagined it.

>> Maybe they were on acid or something.

It's like seems

>> I just remember those poor puppeteers,

man. And they were trying to make this

thing work and it and just I don't think

the technology really existed or what

>> it was like 86 or something.

>> Yeah. And it was they were they were

trying so hard and

>> it just it was it was you know I felt

for everybody including the director. I

I felt he would tried his damn best you

know and it was just betrayal by

puppeteering

and it wasn't the puppeteers it was the

actual

>> machinery. Well, it's kind of if you

think about Star Wars in particular,

it's kind of amazing they were able to

pull that off with the technology that

was available at the time. Yeah. To have

this crazy movie where like the cantina

scene and

>> you go in there's all these different

[ __ ] creatures from different planets

and like they did not have very good

technology back then. Like if you watch

that cantina scene now, like whoa, looks

terrible,

>> right?

>> Looks so clunky. like the masks don't

move like everyone's got their faces

stuck.

>> It's almost like, you know, looking at

claymation around that time, you know?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um amazing what they can do. But I

do like the old school. I do like the

kind of analog uh version of because

when with the CGI and everything, it's

all so sophisticated and so

>> they can do anything now and you almost

want them not to be able to do

everything, you know.

>> Oh, 100%. Yeah, just want a little

little roughness around the edges. It

really helps.

>> Well, there's also a thing about CGI

where the part of your brain that is

looking at it recognizes that this is

not a real thing happening. Like as good

as it looks, there's something about it.

>> Yeah. Which is why uh a lot of the movie

special effects guys like the monster

guys like Rick Baker and along those

lines who did Star Wars, American

Wereolf in London, that thing outside,

the wolf that you see in the hallway

that um

>> they wanted to make sure that it looked

like a real thing, right? It was a

physical object. So you had a phys so in

order to make it a physical object and

obviously CGI wasn't even available back

then but you see it and you know it's a

real thing whereas like later on he did

they did the wolf man and Rick Baker did

that as well and there's a lot of CGI in

there and the transformation scenes and

this part of it is just like your

brain's like this isn't really

happening. Yeah,

>> I don't like it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of the same way in

music too. like when they correct

everything and make the autotune. You

>> great music has a little bit of mistake

in it. You know, they it has a little

bit of like human error.

>> Um when you're hitting a chord on a

guitar,

>> there's, you know, there's a way to play

it perfectly, but there's also a way to

play it a little messed up. Right.

>> And I kind of prefer the little bit

messed up.

>> Like when Hendrickx did the Star

Spangled Banner at Woodstock.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, there was something about it.

It was like

Yeah, it was immediate. It was at the It

was being done at that moment with full

danger,

>> you know,

>> which is a great thing to listen to.

>> Yeah. This it's really happening. It's

not polished and edited and sent through

a machine.

>> Then you get the feeling that that maybe

that was the second or third time he'd

played it,

>> you know, ever. Or maybe the first,

>> right?

>> Which would have been even more insane.

But uh you know

Yeah.

>> Well, that's why people like records.

They love listening to the scratches and

the pops and then you hear the the the

voice like this just pure recorded

voice. There's no autotune. There's no

nothing messing with it.

>> Y

>> especially like an old record.

>> I have one of those um 78s where you

have to crank them up and

>> Oh, wow.

>> and uh they have the little uh you know

cone that amplifies it, right? Oh wow.

>> 1920 or 1910 or something like that. And

I just imagine, you know, living on the

prairie and ordering this from Sears

Robuck, right? And getting your first,

you know, record and putting it on and

hearing this a voice coming from this

acetate.

It must have been magical. It must have

been like, you know, transformative

>> to, you know, this amplified song that

you can dance to or fall in love to

right in your living room.

>> When did they first figure that out?

>> I think it was early part of the 20th

century.

>> Thomas Edison.

>> Thomas Edison.

>> Yeah. They had like this little

cylinder.

>> But when they started mass-producing

them in

>> like just records.

>> Yeah. When was the first I think in the

20s.

>> I think they m they might have

mass-produced those because people had

them. just a way different player. Let's

uh ask Perplexity. What was the first

record? What was the first actual like

record disc that you could play with a

needle? Like a real record.

>> I want to say like 1919.

I'm just taking a wild guess

>> because there's a famous viral video of

a guy dropping that time set

>> 1931