So, you're going to create a wormhole on

demand.

>> You should be able to. That's what my

research showed.

>> So, walk me through how do I get to

Alpha Century by engineering a

traversible wormhole?

>> Well, you're going to create Eric Davis.

You are kind of synonymous with UFO

science. You have an amazing background

at Aerospace Corporation, Earth Tech,

worked with NASA Lewis. Eric Weinstein,

you are a math PhD from Harvard who is

dared to uh present a theory of

everything in physics.

>> The alleged Roswell crash was real.

There was a there there really happened.

>> How is it possible that something this

large that involves this many people has

zero incontrovertible pieces of

evidence?

>> Do you dispute the existence of atomic

weapons because you can't access it?

>> I can access it.

>> Oh, you can access it?

>> I have no idea what we just did. It is a

crash retrieval. Nonhuman intelligence,

nonhuman technology.

>> How many of those crash retrieval

program people have you met?

>> I think it's five total. There's no

physics in it. They're just

>> It doesn't make any sense.

>> Say again.

>> It defies the laws of physics. We

haven't made progress. We have no

physicists. How are they doing on this

project decades in?

>> This thing is not a Manhattan project.

And you know what the Manhattan project

was?

>> Not one of these proposals excites me.

They're boring as sin.

I don't like GR. Why are you not

tweaking it?

>> I'm don't have intuition on how I could

twe tweak it.

>> Are there propulsion modalities that

you're high conviction in that transcend

chemical combustion?

>> Yeah, it goes way beyond even advanced.

>> Are you aware of reports that we are

being

>> made to know that we do not control our

space?

>> Yes. When you see smoke at this level,

the question is what is the nature of

the fire? There are different fires

>> or there's a smoke machine

>> or there's a smoke.

>> Right. Right. Epste was running many

different programs. It wasn't even

Epstein probably running.

>> Look, I believe we can leave. And if you

believe you can leave, you have to

imagine that you're being visited.

>> Ignition sequence.

>> Now, is this possible?

>> Nothing too unusual about that. Their

existence cannot longer be denied.

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Please support our show and tell them we

sent you. Dr. Eric Weinstein, Dr. Eric

Davis, this is an absolute honor. I

can't believe this is finally happening.

Um, I think often in this space in when

we're talking about UFOs, UFO legacy,

reverse engineering programs, you have

uh like a wave function that never sort

of collapses and you have, you know,

different sides saying things that are

mutually exclusive and truth it never

collapses into true or false. And uh I'm

really excited to do this because uh

Eric Weinstein, you probably need no

introduction when it comes to kind of a

a general audience. You are uh a math

PhD from Harvard, uh premier cultural

commentator of our generation, uh who

has dared to uh present a theory of

everything in physics. Uh and then Eric

Davis, you definitely need no

introduction in in UFO space. Uh but to

maybe a more general audience, you know,

some of whom who might have seen you in

this recent Age of Disclosure movie, uh

you are kind of synonymous with UFO

science. You have an amazing background

um at aerospace corporation, uh Earth

Tech, uh you've worked with NASA Lewis,

uh you've worked on on various

initiatives in uh exotic propulsion,

directed energy, and so very excited to

have you both today. I want to make this

kind of two parts. one part is kind of

establishing ground truth on uh Eric

Davis's uh claims because he's invest

he's formally investigated this UFO

legacy reverse engineering program. So I

want to figure out what those claims are

for the audience. And then part two and

this is why we have you here Dr.

Weinstein is I want to figure out and

this is kind of actually a followup on

this thing we did with Hal Putoff last

time.

If there is a theoretical physics

component to this UFO legacy reverse

engineering program, is there physics

hiding in private aerospace

corporations? Physics you can think of

as the rules of reality itself that

would be problematic to say the least if

that were the case. And so I'm very

excited to to speak to you both.

>> Thank you. Thank you very much.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Awesome. So um Eric Davis, I I want to

start with you. um when did you become

aware of this UFO legacy reverse

engineering program and and and how did

you become aware of it and and how are

you so high confidence in it? Um I was

working at NIDS uh it'd be 30 years this

July and I was the director of aerospace

physics and astrophysics uh research at

NIDS that's national institute for

discovery science that Bob Bigalow

founded in 1995 and um uh I was hired in

July of 96 along with Colum Keller and

George Onette and uh John Alexander was

already there on the staff also served

as a member of the science advisory

board. So I worked for Air Force

Research Lab after NIDS and before

Halputoff hired me atte Okay. So then uh

during my work at AFRL and then during

my 15 years working with Halputoff we

got involved with the OAP/ATIP

and then later on the SE the separate

attempt called ATIP and then the UAP

task force that Jay Stratton led and uh

using my security clearances my need to

know my access including my letter that

I'm deputized by Jim Lowsky as a

representative of the of the Defense

Intelligence Agency. I used all that

leverage and authority to get into the

crash retrieval program. I couldn't get

access to CCraft bodies or talk to the

people, but I was able to get in to the

people who handled all of that at a

programmatic level and got confirmation

that all of that was real, that all of

it happened.

>> And and what's your conviction level in

say Roswell for example? Like that being

a real crash involving non-human

biologics?

>> It's 100%.

>> 100%.

>> It's 100%. And it wasn't in Roswell, New

Mexico. was on the Foster Ranch in

Corona, New Mexico, which is 30 mi from

Roswell.

>> This landed at a ranch at Corona, New

Mexico, and the rancher turned it over

to the Air Force. Army officers say the

missile found sometime last week has

been inspected at Roswell, New Mexico,

and sent to right field, Ohio for

further inspection. I had my uh

information I got from Ed Mitchell at a

science advisory board meeting about the

Greer briefings on the disclosure

project at at the Pentagon and then

Admiral Wilson coming back and verifying

that the Roswell crash well the Corona

crash actually really did happen. It

wasn't a mogul balloon. It wasn't a raw

wind radar uh test balloon project. It

wasn't a weather balloon. It wasn't

anything of that nature. It was a real

craft of unknown origin that was um

adjudicated to be not of human origin or

constru construct and um it crashed on

that on the Foster Ranch in Cronin,

Mexico. And then there's my work with

Dave Drush when I was at the aerospace

corporation. He was at the aerospace

corporation building in Colorado Springs

because he worked for their government

customer which occupied one or two

floors there.

>> What was David Gush doing in that

capacity? uh he was I think a security

contractor or advisor to a a program

manager. Dave was the NRO liaison

officer to the UAP task force. So he uh

took direction from J Stratton.

>> Wasn't he a national geospatial agency?

>> No, I said the NRO, the National

Reconnaissance.

>> Yeah, you said that but I thought he was

National Geospace.

>> No, that was later.

>> That was later. That was later. Okay. So

he's the NRO li. So during the UAPF, he

was the liaison officer on behalf of the

NRO to the task force.

>> Yep. Got it.

>> So he worked with Travis Taylor, Jay

Stratton, um uh there's some other folks

that don't want to be named. I know. So

I just know that there's a core group of

four there's a core core group of 40

people but there was a peripheral body

of a thousand people that contributed uh

sometime some of their time and labor

and resources and the other government

agencies DoD agencies intelligence

agencies to feed information to the task

force.

>> A lot of people ask about kind of

circular reporting when it comes to UFO

you know testimonies. David Grush is

what a lot of people I think are hinged

hinging their belief on because he's

just seems like a very kind of honest

above board guy who stumbled into a lot

of this stuff. Um, how many of his

witnesses, his 40 witnesses are more of

kind of the hapless engineer type that

just worked on the vehicles versus

people who have, you know, kind of

secondhand or, you know, third hand.

>> No, they're all firsthand. It's just

that uh it's something that Eric and I

had lots of hours and hours of

conversations about two years ago. Not a

single of them were were a physicist.

>> Not a single one of these guys were

physicists. They had some discipline in

engineering in their in their ex in

their profession. They were either

electrical engineers, material

scientists, uh aerospace engineers,

aeromechanical, aerothermal, thermal

control, fluid mechanics.

>> Yeah.

>> Save save that.

>> There wasn't a real physicist there.

Nobody at the PhD level who is either an

applied physicist or an or a theoretical

physicist.

>> Save that thought please because that is

going to basically be the entire kind of

premise for the second part of this. Do

you have any questions as I'm sort of,

you know,

>> well, you know,

look, one of the things that I dislike

very strongly about the UAP world is

that you spend an inordinate amount of

time if you're just trying to be an

honest analytic person with the is there

any actual tangible incontrovertible

proof? And it always seems like there's

somehow this tight-knit group of people

who in general themselves don't have

direct proof, but sort of have proof one

thing away. And

people build entire

theories about, you know, the names of

crafts and who was where and and I just

have no idea as a civilian uh and a

technical civilian um how to think about

this because I don't want to spend our

time in the is it real or not

mode because that basically wastes time

and it's also how con conspirators get

people not to work on conspiracy

theories that could work is that you

demonize and stigmatize the behavior.

So, I usually would prefer in this this

situation to just decamp and assume the

nature of all of these things, but just

to be honest and and it just needs to be

said once.

>> I've been looking at this now, I don't

know, 5 years since Jesse first crammed

it down my throat, and I would say

>> uh I was clearly wrong about it. It's an

enormous area. There's so many people

who claim to have had contact with this

program in one form or another. I I

can't believe that anyone could train an

acting troop at Brando levels of

sincerity uh to lie to me like that. On

the other hand, I've never seen anything

like it where I can't get a single shred

of incontrovertible proof and so many

people seem to have it, but they all

seem to be under some kind of an NDA

where they can't give something real. So

the just the first frustrating question

is how is it possible that something

this large that involves this many

people has zero scientifically

incontrovertible pieces of evidence so

that we can actually

there's no way to predicate a discussion

in a way that I know that's that's

responsible. It just completely eludes

the scientific community.

>> Yeah. It's because the incontrovertible

evidence is kept in the classified realm

for for security reasons. Well, but

again, I don't want to I don't want to

>> Do you Do you dispute the existence of

atomic weapons because you can't access

it?

>> I can access it.

>> Oh, you can access it? Yes. If I look at

if I look at the

>> plutonium core?

>> No, I never kept the demon core in my

basement.

>> Oh, how about the uh how about the

>> But I appreciate the

>> lithium 6 fuel and the primary new.

>> Oh, we used to do that in high school.

>> Oh,

>> no. No. What I'm saying is is that the

Teleron design is released as a highly

redacted report, right? And so I have an

idea from plenty of sources that this

program exists. And what's more, in the

case of of of atomic weapons,

physicists are not perfectly locked

down. It's a high trust community and in

general people are willing to talk uh

you know even if they shouldn't about

the role of physics and atomic weapons.

I have never heard a colleague not once

at a high level in physics give any

credence to this world. In other words,

>> well that's because they didn't have

access. They didn't have need to know.

They didn't have a contract where they

had to have access

>> which again it's not it's not a

challenge in that sense assume that

there is a dividing line but it means

that

in the Manhattan project right we we

called in Fineman

and Boore and Fairmy and Vonman and put

them under Robert Oppenheimer and and

Teller and all these cats and okay

>> Bethy and

>> and Beta right

>> so but in so doing. I would say, okay, I

would imagine that if this is an

existential threat that there's stuff

from someplace we can't understand that

moves and and breaks the laws of physics

and all this, we would call that in.

Now, one of the great things that came

out of our our discussions before is you

said this thing which I repeated on

Rogan because I didn't think it was

classified. You said when it comes to

being technical just at this point, but

that they don't invite in physics. You

said uh you you said that uh Eric you,

me and Halputoff are the three most

technical people on this and I said I'm

not on this.

>> Yeah, that's that's the problem. You

should be in it.

>> Okay, but but that makes you Oenheimer

and Vonoyman and Fineman and Beta and

Fermy is Howal or something like that.

In other words, or or the reverse. But

are are you and how our Manhattan

project?

>> No, we're not directly involved. We've

been exposed to it officially for the

purpose of the OAPs goals.

>> What is the question that I wish to ask?

Do you can you figure

>> Well, I think I think what Eric's trying

to ask and then I do want to actually

continue along the former lines of just

asking about kind of core evidence with

with Dr. Davis. But I think the question

that Eric is trying to ask is you just

mentioned that none of Grush's, you

know, 40 witnesses that he, you know,

handed over to the, uh, intelligence

community inspector general, uh, are

theoretical physicists, right?

>> And so you have, you know, your physics

PhD, how's an electrical engineer, and

>> well, he's also, well, his, uh, PhD was

in laser physics because when you go to

Stanford in the 1960s, you can't get a

PhD in physics or a master's. So, so

it's you two and then Eric who is a a

you know math PhD at the highest level

who can keep up with you know any

physicist in the country and has his own

physics theory of everything I know.

>> And so it's so it's all all three of you

guys but all three of you are outsiders.

He's a real outsider. You two have

officially investigated this stuff and

you're saying there are no theoretical

physicists on the core program.

>> I have never seen one. I've never gotten

evidence from the people from the

leadership at at the aeros two aerospace

companies I personally interviewed with.

So I don't mean interviewed with but who

I investigated and interviewed

leadership and a few of the worker bees

involved.

>> Are there propulsion modalities that

your high conviction and that transcend

chemical combustion?

Yeah, it goes way beyond even advanced

nuclear and uh nuclear in aerospace

industry is fision fusion and matter

antimatter annihilation way beyond that.

Um I don't think we have a grasp of it.

I haven't heard anybody that I've

interviewed uh say that they have a

grasp of it. And even as recently uh

unfortunately

um the one technical person who ended up

becoming a senior VP decades later uh at

the biggest of the aeros legacy

aerospace companies uh he was a material

scientist working on the crash retrieval

program after after getting his doctor

after earning his doctorate and he got

hired straight away to work on it for

about uh roughly two decades.

>> Who is this?

>> Who is that?

>> I'm not worried. So um uh so basically

he's a material scientist. We've had a

lot of classified and unclassified

discussions and I brought these

questions up. I asked his questions.

Yeah. And the and the answer is no. You

we we didn't have theoretical physicist

that we could put on this. We're

strictly limited

>> in the number of people on the bigot

list. The bigot list is the list of

people who have need to know and access

to a particular classified program. And

if you're not on that list, you don't

get admitted. you'll get invited.

>> This is an unagnowledged waved and

bigoted self uh special uncknled it's a

waved unagnowledged special access

program, right? And so, uh I said, "So,

where are your physicists? What are your

theor theoretical and applied physicists

telling you?" He said, "Well, we don't

have any. We never did. We only were

allowed to keep it down to roughly a

handful of people in the company to work

on this and that's it." And it's limited

to engineering. There's no physics in

it. There

>> doesn't make any sense.

>> Say again.

I'm just I'm just trying to logically

think about this. Okay. And you know,

it's it's like saying we're having

trouble performing, uh, Beethoven's

fifth, and we have the finest

accountants, optometrists, boxers, uh,

and cardio trainers. And you're like,

well, what about violinists and violists

and anybody playing the French horn? And

it's like, oh, well, we don't we don't

do that.

>> So, of course, you're not going to play

Beethoven's fifth. I mean, because you

can't engineer your way out of a science

problem.

>> Yeah. Well, let me tell you, I think

you've got a great point about talking

about Manhattan, the Manhattan Project.

This this thing is not a Manhattan

project. And you know what the Manhattan

Project was? We both do. We read the

books. Um, it was multi how many people?

Thousands of people. Multi-disiplinary.

>> The white badges was the very small

core, but the the whole thing was

enormous.

>> Yeah. You had industrial engineers, um,

computational engineers, electrical

engineers, mechanical engineers,

explosives experts, nuclear ex nuclear

physicist and nuclear engineers. You had

everybody of of all the STEM disciplines

there. You had to have mathematicians

>> and uh they were involved with that

program to build up the the fuel design,

characterization, and manufacturer. But

this program does it. These programs

don't have that. They deliberately keep

it divided up among different companies

to maintain plausible deniability in

case there's a leak and they keep it

very small for the reason

>> but it has to be centralized somewhere.

The compartmentalized nature of Los

Alamos and uh the Manhattan Project more

broadly

um was still overseen by a small group

who had universal access.

>> That's right. And also note that the

Manhattan Project people had their

families living with them too in a

closed city.

>> That's right.

>> That's right. So they don't have an

equivalent for this in the crash

retrieval program. Um so there's dis

disjointed groups of people, small

numbers of people. They're not allowed

to know about the other people

and what they're doing.

>> Those are the people who are in the

stovepiped architecture,

>> right? And the central u

>> the central portfolio owner is a

three-letter intelligence agency. So

that's who's is centrally in charge. It

was Lesie Grove in the United States.

Was it the Was Lesie the uh general of

the uh Army Corps of Engineers or was he

in a different

>> I don't remember where he was.

>> Okay. But he was in charge on behalf of

the army. He ran it. He was the military

boss and Oppenheimer was the civilian

boss of the Manhattan project.

>> Do do you take uh David Grush at face

value that Dick Cheney was the last head

honcho of this sort of program

>> and there's not really a mob boss. The

closest person we got that uh I was

aware of was unfortunately now deceased

Vice President Dick Cheney. Uh Darth

Vader himself. Not shocking that he was

involved in this. And essentially when

he left in 2009, that was the last time

that these activities really had central

leadership.

>> I never heard that before. So that never

came up in our in our classified and

unclassified conversations. I'm not

aware that Dick Cheney had any role

>> to speak to this threeletter. the the

the head the head you cited a

three-letter in our discussion at soul

in San Francisco you directly said CIA

DS&T at one time Glenn Gaffne etc. So

was the UFO program portfolio owner so

to Dr. Weinstein's question about

technical rigor physicists. Did you ever

have the opportunity to to ask anybody

near the head of this apparatus? Why

there wasn't a stronger motivation to

have physicists on staff? I mean, from

an early era, why was there not that

prioritization?

>> Well, I would love to talk to the head

of the crash retrieval program during

that era, but he refused to talk to us.

>> And that was that was Glen Gaffne.

>> Yeah. Glen Glen Gaffne. And who is Jim

Ryder?

OSAP was originally intended to skip out

Bigalow Aerospace facilities in Las

Vegas due to a UAP material divestment

plan proposal to OAP leadership by

Loheed Martin space systems vice

president Dr. James Ryder now deceased.

>> He's this Loheed Martin space systems

guy. He was the um uh senior vice

president of the Loheed Martin space and

missiles company which is also the um

space systems company and his dual hat

job was director of the company's

advanced technology center.

>> Did he also work on UFO crash retrieval

initiatives?

>> Well, I don't want to say that um or

confirm or deny that because of the

consequence to his family. One of his

one of his daughters works there. Okay,

got it.

>> It could cause her issues. So,

>> okay.

>> So, I can't get into that particular

detail.

>> Okay. Yeah. No, no, no problem. Through

your I'm so sorry. Through your

investigations, like did you ever

encounter technical intelligence that

you considered high credibility that

seemed like it would have had to have

come from direct communication with NHI

or did it all seem like it could have

been through passive investigation?

>> I couldn't get to that. There's two

things I couldn't get into because I

didn't have access. I didn't have the

right clearances and I wasn't allowed to

let's let's put it this way. There are

people I was working with who knew who

to contact but they wouldn't give me the

contact because they were not allowed to

give out the name and organizational

office or program uh that the individual

worked at. And so they were not allowed

to share that with me. So I couldn't get

into the NHI issue. I couldn't get into

the alien or NHI contact issue. The fact

that Ryder uh

essentially said, "We have no idea how

this works." Does that imply to you they

never had direct they never had the

ability to ask questions of someone with

full knowledge of the technology? Did

did you ever make that connection?

>> No, I think Dave Brush was able to make

that connection. I couldn't. when when

you're on age of disclosure and you are

saying sort of confidently that Roswell

had you know a certain number of beings

one of the beings probably survived is

that I don't know you know I okay

>> that's that's a point of information I

have never gotten in any of my official

government interviews uh or even

unofficial off thereord interviews um is

that any of these aliens ever lived uh

this is coming from a different avenue

and um I don't recall Dave Brush telling

me that that was the case, but I I won't

dismiss it offhand. It's just that it

it's not a piece of data that ever came

my way after 30 years.

>> As part of your official investigations

in OAP,

>> you were making sure that your sources

were completely uncorrelated, right?

They weren't speaking to each other.

>> Oh, yeah. they wouldn't be able to

because they were in compartmentalized

programs and we had uh compartmentalized

clearances ourselves. So we could only

talk to them at a certain level and even

uh we could not get special access

program clearanced because the VP of

Loheed Martin uh there was a VP of TRW

before it got bought out by Northrup

Breming. um these guys uh they may know

about each other but they're not read in

on each other's programs because that's

what compartmentalization meant. It

meant that uh they may know about each

other through the through the portfolio

owner but they're not allowed to

communicate because of that

compartmentalization.

And um uh so where was I going? I think

I lost my train of thought. I'm sorry.

>> Well, tell tell me about George HW Bush

Bush 41.

>> That's separate. That's separate.

>> Yeah. To totally separate. But um yeah,

just wanted to ask you about your

interactions with him because it seemed

like from your accounting he wasn't

fully aware of the UFO crash retrieval

program, but he became aware of it

through some interesting

>> Well, he became uh Gerald Ford's CIA

director.

>> Mhm.

>> So Gerald Ford became president. He

nominated Bush and Bush got confirmed

and he became the CIA director. So he

goes into this for his first briefing as

director of the CIA. The first thing

that came out of this briefer's mouth

was the Hollowman landing in April 1964

at Hollowman uh Air Force Base in New

Mexico. So he started briefing Bush on

that and Bush said, "What are you

talking about? I've never heard of this

before."

>> Describe what this is for the audience.

>> So uh so to make a long story short,

three craft, UAP craft, UFO craft came

in. One of them landed not on the runway

but on the tarmac close to a u a hanger.

The other two took off and uh a gang way

cames down, extended down and down comes

a humanoid looking very tall uh NHI

being uh he looked of Northern European

descent. So he goes and meets with them

and they go into that hanger and that

hanger turns out to be the equivalent

back in those days of a special access

program hanger. It's all secured.

They've got guards around it. That's the

end of the story. So this film was made

of it and this story has circulated at

various times. Uh uh the defense

audiovisisual agency under the command

of two uh retired generals uh I think

Jerry Miller was the name of one of

them. I don't remember the name of the

other. Jacqu Vali talks about them in

his book Revelations I think it is. And

uh he and Alan Heinik were invited to go

to the DAVA and see that film, get

access to the film and see it. So, they

got there and apparently they were not

allowed to see that video because the

one of those two generals said that they

got intercepted or um uh somebody got in

the middle of that and and convinced

them not to allow Ble and Heinik to see

that film. You do have this fact pattern

over decades of you know this sort of

luring in of various you know UFO

researchers and presentation of passage

material which is you know um material

that might have some truth in it but

it's also sprinkled with falsities so

that you know the the researchers can be

discredited. So why now is there this

line in the sand where we should trust

that there is this real UFO legacy crash

retrieval program going on? You know,

I'm kind of thinking maybe it all began

with uh Keller Hernappen Latsky's first

book uh Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. I

think that started it off

>> and then uh Latsky did his first book

and then now second book last year and I

think he's got a third one coming out

and then Lou Alzando's book came out and

so I think this is a crescendo of things

that have come together in uh the right

time, the right place, the right people

and that's why this is happening. And if

you're Stratton and you you're hosting

because he was the guy who ran the UAPF,

the UAP task force and so

>> but he also was working uh with Jim Licy

on the OSAP. He was at DIA at the time.

>> I don't know if you knew that.

>> I didn't know that.

>> He and Lassky are the ones that built

the OSAP program together. So it wasn't

just Jim Lowsky alone. It was Jim and

Jay and their support staff. there's,

you know, the DIA and and contractor

staff that supported them. So Jay was

involved with the OSAP from the very

beginning.

>> And then then we we talk about OAP,

ATIP, these sorts of programs that are,

you know, very small dollar amounts, you

know, visav

>> $22 million, but

>> the inflation adjusted Manhattan

project.

>> Yeah. Harry Reid had an intention on

turning into a turning it into an

Manhattan project. uh he was intend this

was like just to get it started and then

the subsequent fiscal years that would

follow. He was intending this to go like

maybe a decade with worth a billion

dollars maybe $2 billion worth of

programmatics.

>> But you were simultaneously saying there

is an underlying program that is a

legacy reverse engineering program that

is

>> yeah that's sup this this after the fact

>> and that that has to

>> we were trying to get into the crash

retrieval program. our our goal was to

get after it and co-opt it into the OAP

so we could do what the goals of the

OPSAP wanted us to do. And I don't think

that was necessarily to bring it out in

the public domain. That was to keep it

con uh uh classified anyway. But our job

was to get access to it because we were

not convinced that there was any

progress made. And as a matter of fact,

the senior VP at at one of the aerospace

corporations who I had years worth of

interviews with uh before and after he

retired um confirmed that there was no

success in the reverse engineering

program after eight decades and it just

didn't go anywhere. They had modest

success like they understood the

materials that craft were made from.

They figured out how they were

constructed but we couldn't reproduce

any of it. We had no techn um we had no

fabrication or manufacturing technology

at the time of the crash retrieval

programs when they were fully funded and

fully act operating to figure that out.

We could just use our SEM and and

transmission SEM microscopes and other

advanced uh uh um condensed matter state

diagnostic tools and evaluate it, look

at it, look at it down into the into the

you know almost nano scale and we could

see how the materials were assembled but

we could not figure out how to reproduce

that process. If we have made no

progress, why aren't we more open with

the scientific community? That's the

security aspect of it. I I'm I'm not

involved with that policy aspect and I

don't have contact with the people that

make the policy on that. So, I can't

answer that.

>> But you are not that I don't want to. I

just don't know.

>> No, no, no. I get it. And you're But

you're saying confidently that there are

billion dollar budgets involved in the

actual core UFO location.

>> I don't know. I don't know that it's

that much. It was on that order from my

interviews with TRW and Loheed Martin

people. um uh that that was the or order

order of magnitude of the budget

expenditures that were given not on an

annual basis but it was more like maybe

over a u a 5 to 10 year period but then

the budget would go up and down just

like NASA's budget would go up and down

so the budgets would go up and they'd

have they'd be flushed with money get in

get a few more people in get some better

equipment in the lab and then the budget

gets cut and they got to go a bare

minimum operation, people get laid off

and whatever.

>> I wanted to ask you, you know, there's

this sort of not even lore, there is a

document called the Wilson Davis memo.

You get asked about it all the time.

It's uh kind of um apocryphal meeting

that occurred between you and I don't

know Thomas Wilson.

>> UFOs or something.

>> That's right.

>> The last gospel of the Bible. You are

famous for your meticulous note

takingaking and um apparently this

meeting took place in the EG&G parking

lot and it is this you know admiral who

is head of uh J2 joint.

>> He was retired at the time.

>> He was retired at the time back into

active duty for a short period of time

because he had to close out a project at

Area 51 that he was responsible for

under his office at the DIA uh that he

initiated and um it was a complicated

project. He he couldn't tell me because

I didn't have that kind of level of

access or anything like that. So he he

all I know is he said I'm back because

I've got to go back up into that he he

wouldn't say Area 51. I knew what he was

talking about. He was saying he used the

word back in those days the undeclared

or unagnowledged facility near the

Nevada test site and he had to go back

there because they needed to close out a

major project he initiated when he was

active duty uh DIA director and um and

so he was willing to meet with me at the

behest of two guys at the National

Nuclear Security Agency that I

personally knew, John Alexander and I

knew them. Uh we were all members of the

Association of Former Intelligence

Officers. We were forming a Las Vegas

chapter in 2002. So these guys were in

Las Vegas because one of them is the

director of intelligence at the NNSA

site in Vegas uh in Nevada and the other

one was the director of counter

intelligence uh at the NNSA site as

well.

>> And so at least formerly Wilson was

supposed to have all military tech under

his purview, under his scope. And he's

expressing a lot of frustration to you,

right, that he's just met with this

private corporation.

>> This is back in 97.

>> This is in 97,

>> the summer of 97.

>> And he's saying he's saying these

there's this team of people in the

hundreds of people. And they have this

tech this uh material that doesn't seem

to be of human origin and progress is

sort of slow and cumbersome, but that he

for whatever reason wasn't supervising

or overseeing it even though he should

have been. It's it's that he they claim

he didn't have need to know. And that's

possible. Uh their budget came from his

in other words, their their funding, I'm

sorry, their funding came from his

director's budget. The budget he gets as

a director. This was DIA money that he

wasn't aware of. He wasn't aware because

this this is a WOSAP. He hadn't been

read in on it. And so when you deal with

budget line items for these things,

they're just innocuous budget codes that

a comproller general of the defense

department or the military services or

of the US government understands how to

read a budget code and then a a a

standard plain English description is

deliberately meant to be vague so you

can't identify it. That way, if the

budget document gets gets captured by

espionage assets from foreign nations,

foreign adversaries, they won't

understand what the hell it is. So, all

they're going to see is something they

don't they may or may not even know how

to interpret and some innocuous words.

And this could be as as innocuous as

aerospace technology review or uh well,

let's look at the OAP, Advanced

Aerospace Weapon Systems Application

Program. It could be something similar

to that or of that nature. You'll see

something of that nature. It it it

doesn't say UFO, alien, off-world, you

know, it doesn't give you any clue or

indication as to what it is. It's meant

for that for that reason is to keep our

enemies off the track to be able to

figure out what we're spending our money

on and where. Wilson didn't know that

because he didn't have to need to know

just like a president in the United

States really doesn't have need to know

about the crash retrieval program

because mostly they have to know to ask

about it. And when they ask, that's an

order from him that somebody lower down

needs to give him a briefing. But if he

already doesn't know, he doesn't know to

ask.

>> What happened when Jimmy Carter got

briefed?

>> Uh, I don't know what the aftermath is,

but I know that Alonzo McDonald

confirmed to several of us that um and

our group during that era, the OAP era,

that uh he talked to the staff that

attended that briefing. He talked to

Carter and it happened. He even sent us

the June uh I don't remember the date in

June but I've got the document but it's

June 199 1977.

Uh it was an economic meeting in the

National Security Council meeting rooms

but then when it came time for this

classified UAP or UFO program briefing

they moved it to the Oval Office.

>> Do you know what the nature of the

meeting was?

>> Wow. That what we popularly known as

project Aquarius. And so, uh, I know

that Alonzo did not dispute that that

was the code name. It might not have

been, but it might have been, but he

said, "This was it. This is the real

deal. This really happened." And by the

way, I got from from the Carter Library,

the attendee list for that date, and it

shows the name of the regular meeting

for the economics something council

because that's what Alonzo Mcdonald's

job is at the White House. So, um,

>> is that public information? names of the

people that attended were there. The

only thing is two names and

organizations were redacted. Out of all

the lists on two pages, only two got

redacted.

>> Can you send me that?

>> I say again,

>> can you send me that with the

redactions? Obviously, that would be

amazing.

>> Um, so basically, uh, Alonzo confirmed

that it happened. He was then the

principal staff director of the White

House staff. I think that was the title

back then. Before that, he was Jimmy

Carter's special representative for

trade, I think, to the United Nations.

So, he had something like an ambassador,

an ambassador level title.

>> Do you know anything that transpired in

the meeting itself? As far as

>> well, he talked to Carter and and the

and the guys that are list named on that

list and he asked him what went what

transpired. Carter told him and the guys

in who attended told him.

>> And they said, "We learned that the

United States government has been in

contact with aliens, UFO beings." Um

>> Danny Shehan says Carter's head was Oh,

see what he does is when he's in a

moment of stress or something that's

really critical. Um Alonzo told us that

Jimmy or Cart President Carter has a

habit of putting his head down on his

table like this and praying. This is how

he prays. on his desk or at a table at a

briefing table. So that's what he was

doing. He was just praying and he was

praying about the consequence of this

information that he just now learned uh

what it's what it's consequence to

American society is and maybe to the

United States government and our defense

of our country against an unknown

potential hostile we don't know force

that we don't have a technology to

overwhelm. Did he learn about Have we

had treaties or agreements with any of

these beings?

>> That I never heard about. No, that never

came up.

>> Okay.

>> I I don't recall. I've seen the Aquarius

document. Alonzo said it was real.

People have been saying for years that

that was fabricated by Bill Moore uh and

Rick Dodie and it turns out no, Alonzo

said those guys had nothing to do with

anything. That document uh and by the

way, I don't think you can find that

document on the internet unless you use

the wayback machine all now nowadays. It

used to be available uh as late as 2010

or 11 and then it just gone.

>> So um Elono read every word of the

Aquarius briefing and he said, "Oh yeah,

that's what these guys told me that they

did." They the guys of the in the

briefing got together afterwards, went

to a motel and they basically wrote down

from memory uh what they recalled about

the briefing because they each got

briefing documents. When the briefing is

orally given, they're reading through

it. Then when the briefing is over, they

got to give the document back to the CIA

guy at the door that came the documents

because they're going to be destroyed.

>> Where where's what they wrote down from

memory. Where where are those documents?

>> Well, that's the thing. Those are gone.

Um, I'll get to that. So, uh, how do you

know they're gone?

>> The White House gets a copy, permanent

copy for their records. So, that's in a

really heavily classified part of the

Carter Library, I believe, maybe. And

then the, uh, CIA keeps a copy because

that's their program. Okay. So these

guys had eight 8 by 14 inch, you know,

legal pads and they all meet up in a

hotel um and they all start downpouring

from memory what they think they what

they recall of the briefing document. So

they they did a round robin. So

everybody passes their document to the

next guy, so forth and so on all the way

around. And so they're going to crossch

checkck what they remember against the

other guy's notes. And they're going to

keep doing this until they find, you

know, they're going to disagree on what

was said on this little point of this

language and this terminology and

whatnot. They're going to keep doing

that until they finally converge on a

document that that strongly

resembles the briefing document that

they all read and they all agree on it

and they said, "Yeah, this is more close

to what we read and we collectively, you

know, came to this convergent final

version." So, somebody typed that up on

a on a old-fashioned

uh electrothermal um printer, and that's

what you see in the photographs that

Bill Moore took of that document.

>> Okay.

>> And it was said that the senior falcon,

senior falcon was somebody else. I know

his name. I just can't think of it, but

it's in one of my uh one of my

investigation.

>> Why do all these guys have bird names?

>> I don't know. That's just the choice of

an admiral at the DIA. Okay. That a

nothing to do with the aviary. Aviary is

more in the 1990s conspiracy era or

maybe the late 80s even or that.

>> No, this is

>> senior falcon was a DIA uh officer who

was sent to communicate with Jamie

Shandere and Bill Moore. He's the one

that passed undeveloped 35mm film of the

so-called MJ12 documents. These are the

first generation documents that were

created by James Jesus Angleton's chop

shop, his his mole hunting document

production factory. So that's the

connection there is that these documents

came from the uh defense intelligence

agency. It was the uh director of human

intelligence collection

>> and Admiral uh EA Burkhalder Edward

Burkhalder was the director and Air

Force Colonel Roy Joners was his chief

of staff. So those documents came out of

there. Well this whole thing about the

films the the undeveloped roles of 35mm

film that would go to Bill Moore and

Jamie Shandur that was what that was

about. Rick Dodie was considered to be

the junior falcon, but he was not a

legitimate mediator of information from

the DIA to Bill Moore. He was more

coming out of AFOSI as a counter

intelligence agent trying to throw him

off the track.

>> Let's just keep it high level, I guess.

So, you have you have Roswell in 47. You

have magenta before that in Italy, but

then this this craft crashes there and

that gets transferred to US possession.

>> And then how many other crashes between

the 30s and today?

>> Um I can't give you the official number

because I know that number on a

classified basis. I could say it's less

than 40.

>> Okay. Less than 40. I think Halputo off

said on the Joe Rogan Experience

somewhere like we have between 10 and 15

crash crafts in our possession.

>> Said 15. I think he said more than 10,

but that's still

>> more than 10. Okay, got it.

>> More than 10. I'll just say less than

40.

>> Okay. Would you describe the majority as

wreckage or intact?

>> Uh, mix.

>> Even mix. Okay. Okay.

>> And not all of them involve recovery of

N and HI bodies.

>> Dr. Davis. Uh,

what gives you confidence that we

haven't made progress with any of this

material?

>> Uh, I can't speak

of my confidence level after

my senior VP source died.

Uh, because before then, I'm highly

confident because he was still connected

in. Uh, he was he was still on active

duty work up until he got retired in the

early 2010s. Then he's retired after

that. So he's sharing with me the

information that he had all the way up

until he retired. And so I'm highly

confident 100% level that what he told

me is right. And a matter of fact, he

arranged for me to meet one of his

co-workers on the crash retrieval

program back in the 70s and 80s.

>> Did you meet them?

>> Oh, yeah. It was a woman. I met her. I

we he my source, his wife, uh took me to

her home, picked her up. We went into

San Jose to have dinner at a German

restaurant. How many of those people

crash retrieval program people have you

met total?

>> Okay. So I think it's five total. Okay.

>> Five total at that one at that

particular company.

>> How many have you met total in your

life?

>> It was just those two from that company

and one from TRW.

>> Okay. Wow. Did you meet many of the 40

uh of Dave Brush's firsthand witnesses?

>> Say again.

>> Did you meet many of the 40 of

>> I didn't even know who they are really.

He never shared that with me.

>> I see that. I have a rough guess, but

believe me, don't confuse that 40

>> Yeah.

>> with the 40 core people on the task

force on the UAP task force. They're

they're not

>> totally different. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. They're totally different. There's

no overlap.

>> No, that that that makes I would hope

that there's an overlap.

>> Yeah. I don't think Dave was allowed to

tell me the names of those people or

their organizations and where they're

located because that was woo level.

>> Yeah. Final question before I want to

get into the the second section of this

discussion uh where I want you to drive

mostly, but um uh how did Admiral Thomas

Wilson react uh when you when you met

him in 1997 and and why I guess why did

people direct him to you and then uh

what transpired in the in the meeting?

>> I can't get into that because you can't

confirm or deny that we met for the

security reasons. Okay.

>> There are legal issues still involved

that are active. So, um, uh, because I

can't reveal that in public. That wasn't

meant for public,

>> uh, consumption and that was released

from Mitchell's estate.

>> Mhm.

>> And, um, that was supposed to be

destroyed one year after Mitchell got a

copy of it as a courtesy from from who

generated it. And uh unfortunate that

his kids were sloppy and um and I guess

Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any

instructions on what to do with that

document if if he should die, but he was

supposed to destroy that as far as I

understand. I um I would be remiss if I

didn't. I this can be cut if it's not

okay to air, but uh during our

discussion in San Francisco, you did uh

confirm that you wrote the Wilson Davis

notes by way of a conversation about

>> I I can confirm

>> seeking legal legal counsel.

>> Yeah, they're real. They're legit.

They're 100% accurate. Yeah.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> But that's the typewritten version. Um

that there's a handwritten version, but

that's all I could say about it. Um uh

so

>> have you have you ever seen a UFO?

>> Oh, yeah. My wife and I did in Tucson,

Arizona. Broad daylight. A boomerang

shaped craft below traffic pattern

altitude. Uh looked

kind of like halfway boomer boomerang

halfway heel boot heel type shape, but

it was close. Yeah. Have you ever seen a

a craft in a hanger?

>> No.

>> I wish. I wanted to.

>> Have you ever seen any oneofone

material? So idiosyncratic, never seen

before material.

>> No.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. And the arts parts don't qualify.

>> Okay.

>> We don't know what the providence of

that is. and Hal and I were involved in

the um TTS uh meeting at the Pentagon

conference room in August of 2024

where we read the full 90page ORL

that's the office uh Oakidge National

Laboratory uh there 90page materials

analysis report on the arts parts and

there was nothing there there was no

there there's a little bit of am

ambiguity because here's the ambiguity

the way that material material was

assembled is not consistent with what we

were doing in the 1940s era when

magnesium became a major top uh a major

alloy of interest for the aerospace

community. Um and so uh that's the

ambiguity but the isotope ratios or the

materials it contains are earth they're

manufactured. Part of what I love about

you is you are a walking compendium of

all these exotic uh you know

experiments, physics experiments and

whenever you know anybody gets uh some

sort of anomalous result uh uh you are a

great evaluator of that and you've

written a book that I will uh I'll plug

here called uh Frontiers of Propulsion

Science where you've comprehensively

reviewed a lot of these sort of more

exotic you know propellantless

propulsion sort of you know uh

modalities. Have you ever seen uh an

exotic experimental result or an

experimental result that's anomalous

rather that um you believe is is real

and replic replicable and and and not

>> No, I wish I did. I haven't

>> nothing that's ever you know breaks the

sort of standard model or you know any

anything?

>> No, certainly not.

>> Okay. I just think that the standard

model has done an outstanding job

through the avenue of condensed matter

theory to come up with some pretty

exotic condensed matter states which

have been uh you know theoretical

curiosities decades ago and now we've

advanced our laboratory technology and

condensed matter physics so well that

they're discovered they're being

discovered right now. So they're really

wonderful wonderful exotic states

insulator topological insulators

metamaterials uh uh all kinds of other

stuff like majorana particles that are

supposed to be uh I think they're

massless aren't they Eric

>> that if you have a

>> the majorana particles

>> if you have a a myana mass mechanism

different from a dac mech uh mass

mechanism that's only possible if a

particle is its own antiparticle. Yeah,

that's right. Correct. That's right. But

they these are not free particles. These

are quasi particles because they are uh

rep they are they're quasi particles

because they're created by the

collective action of the electrons in

the semiconductor or condensed matter

system.

>> I want to seed the floor uh to my former

colleague Eric Weinstein. Uh I

appreciate you indulging all my crazy

UFO questions. Just wanted to kind of

establish a ground truth around Eric

Davis's past experience. Uh, one of my

favorite comments on our last discussion

with Hal Putoff was now I know what a

dog feels like when it watches TV. And

so if uh, you know, this is not for the

faint of mind, just so you're aware

from, you know, for the audience, uh,

this will be a really fun discussion,

but I, you know, I want to get into what

we touched on, which is why are there no

theoretical physicists on the program

and what do you think is going on? H how

do you think maybe what we've talked

about with the observables of UFOs might

dovetail with some of your theories?

>> Okay. Well, I I don't even know how to

begin this. I mean, look, the first

thing is is that in general, I can

produce too many explanations through a

creative, sometimes undisiplined mind

for a certain set of facts. And this is

one of the only times and perhaps the

only time I've ever seen a situation

where I cannot come up with a single

theory of what's going on that explains

all of the bizarre behavior in UFO UAP

land. Too many people who seem

relatively reasonable with nearly idic

memories talking about particular names,

dates.

It is impossible to me that we have a

theater company that has figured out how

to create this space opera. And on the

other hand, the lack of anything

tangible.

Um I don't believe in a something this

this old, this long, this many events

that we have absolutely nothing uh to go

on. So let me just say from the

beginning that this is the odd

situation. One of the reasons nobody

from my world wants to get involved with

it is that

um it just makes you look foolish from

the point of view of a scientist.

>> Well, because involved unless they're

working on a contract

>> well, but then they get a clearance.

>> Sky is a big place

>> and

>> I disagree.

>> You said that you've

>> one of the top government scientists. I

can't think of his name. You would know

who it is. Uh

gosh, he was a physicist and I just Hal

put off knew him and um he had all he

had a lot of clearances into the

Manhattan project, the post Manhattan

project, uh a lot of other high

technology projects throughout areas of

the DoD. Um uh and and so he was a

academician and he had clearances. A

colleague of mine up at Baylor also has

uh DoD clearance classification

classifications and he's working on

classified stuff that you're not

familiar with. You've never heard of.

You won't get access to it. If you have

a contract

>> that requires a clearance, you will get

access to something you don't know about

in the public.

>> Okay. I I understand that there's a lot

of stuff that's classified. We have an

entire system of national labs. There's

no question about that. I'm talking I'm

talking about

like at the level of ground truth right

our our two primary theories are the

standard model and general relativity

both of them are relevant here as

limitations

on what we can understand of the world

we see and if somebody has access to

theories beyond those two uh and they

predicate manufacturing on it and then

we get the gifts of that manufacturing

just assuming that that story is correct

um we should be seeing some very weird

stuff that is not explicable as if

Newton was looking at

Lorent contraction. You would say, "What

the heck is that?" And

um so I'm just going to begin with

things that make me hugely

uncomfortable. And again, it's not as a

a dig or it's like I just can't figure

this out. So, we toss off these humanoid

aliens,

like aliens that are tetropods,

literally tetropod body plans. We have

arachnids, we have insects, we have

sephopods, we have all sorts of

intelligent life that doesn't follow a

tetropod

body plan. The odd of a humanoid

evolving through convergent evolution

somewhere else

of a humanoid I is vanishingly small

>> but it's not zero.

>> Yeah, but it's preposterous.

>> But Aam's razor wouldn't be that these

beings would be from elsewhere. They

would be that they would be derivative

of humans

>> or or look you you can tell me some

other story like these things aren't

even really the beings that that the

real beings have constructed these

things to interact with us not to not to

make us uncomfortable. Okay, I

understand that.

>> Do you believe that?

>> That's possible.

>> Okay.

>> All right. But any biologist hearing

this story is just going to have the

same reaction like tetropods. This

sounds like it came out of a, you know,

Buck Rogers thing where you had to, it

was too high too too hard to hire an

actor to behave as if they had a

completely different body plan. So all

all alien aliens from the golden age of

cinema or silent movies, whatever, were

going to be tetropods if they were

playing an alien. So that first of all

really bugs me is that I don't want to

hear about that with no mention of it is

stunning that there are two eyes a mouth

a head and it walks the same way we do.

I mean even if you look at like a I

don't know a camel's legs you know that

where we have a knee it has an ankle or

you know something like that. Mhm.

>> So,

so that's that's the first part and

that's just the biological.

The next part is um I I was very

interested looking through some of your

physics papers. You seem to live in a

world that I really honestly didn't know

existed. So, I learned something from

that. It's sort of like national

security physics.

>> National security physics.

>> Yeah. It's not like a real thing, but if

I look at a lot of your papers, they're

focused on

bizarre,

how would I put it? Bizarre physics that

accepts the standard model in general

relativity is ground truth predicated on

some sort of engineering desire. No, I'm

just looking at uh for my per my book uh

I was looking at the physics of what's

possible with anti-gravity,

gravitational wave propulsion or rockets

within what? Within what framework?

>> Say again.

>> Within GR. Yeah.

>> So GR with or without positivity

constraints or how are you

>> how are you um

we'll slow it down. First of all, I

don't understand if these things are

here from out of town. If they're not

co-resident with us here on Earth,

they're not here using the standard

model in general relativity. I don't

think I mean, it's not impossible, but

>> but I'm not doing UFO physics. I'm doing

propulsion physics for interstellar

flight. This I'm not looking at this

from a UFO perspective. I'm doing this

as part of another.

>> So, maybe you can make this. So, you're

holes, things like that.

>> Okay.

Yeah, I'm not doing this because of

UFOs. I'm just saying, hey,

>> if this is valid to any degree and we

could expect maybe or pray maybe that in

the future we can engineer these things.

This could be how UFOs move because

we're trying to develop this physics for

exploitation as a technology for future

interstellar and interstellar missions.

So this is hugely important for me just

to understand the context. If I

understand and please correct me if I'm

wrong because I don't want to push

anything that isn't true. I think what

you're saying is assume a proof of

concept that something can voyage at an

interstellar level with intention. Okay.

Assuming that one piece of information,

attempt to figure out how that could be

done as best you can with the tools we

have.

Yes. Okay.

So then you and I completely polarize I

think and again I could be wrong on one

one issue. I would not be wasting my

time and again that's judgmental. I

would feel that I was wasting my time if

I was trying to do this with GR with

general relativity.

>> Okay.

>> I might have an alcoiri warp drive but

I'd think how much energy do I need to

warp space in this particular way right?

or well I could fall into a spinning

black hole and you know maybe I could

try to figure how this would be

traversible and non-c catastrophic

and I could imagine using all of the

exotica of GR well I'll just I'll bet

everything on time dilation

and it'll be really expensive to go

there and home but I can still get there

>> yes

>> using uh Laurent uh conversion factors

none of that has any appeal to me.

Clearly, it's had great a great appeal

to you. It's just fine. We're we can

pull we can polarize on that.

Surely you don't think

it's m isn't it much more plausible that

if craft were true and we accept that as

our premise that it's basically proof

that GR isn't the last world, that

general relativity is a constricting

framework and that there's something

beyond it that has general relativity as

an effective theory. I agree with that.

>> And they're using that.

>> I agree with that.

>> Okay. So, that makes this mysterious,

which is why are you using GR

>> because that's the only tool I have that

I know of from my graduate education and

my research interest. And so, I don't I

I don't have the liberty to I'm not a

pure theoretical physicist. I'm more of

like one foot theory, one foot applied.

>> Okay. So, let's let's take that.

If I had access to anything that

seemingly was breaking GR, general

relativity,

I'd be dreaming about things related to

general relativity because we know that

we don't like general relativity at a

deep level. It's got a terrible variable

in it which is called the metric

>> where it's easy to fall into things that

are not metrics from the space of

metrics. things it just doesn't behave

well in terms of quantization. We know

that we have got these two kinks in

spaceime called the initial singularity

which we associate with the big bang and

the Schwarz or black hole singularity

that we associate with collapsed stars.

>> Yeah.

>> And

I don't like GR.

I mean, I love it from the point of view

of of Einstein having pulled it off, but

it's a 110 years past its sell by date.

And why

why are you not tweaking it?

>> I'm don't have intuition on how I could

twe tweak it.

>> Okay. So,

>> and I would rather somebody smarter than

me do that.

I would like to have somebody who tweaks

it and I could look at it and say, "Hey,

it either does or does not predict a

potential propulsion mode that could get

us where we want to go across

interstellar distances without the

consequence of G over C to the 4th.

So

how do I interpret

There are a lot of people who are

interested in gravity.

>> Yeah.

>> And there none of them on this program.

>> Say that again. Other people are

interested in

>> Let me start from a different place.

There's this 1971

Australian document that I became aware

of where the Australian intelligence

officer Harry do you remember

>> Harry Turner who was head of their

nuclear division

>> starts writing down

here's what we surmise about our friends

the Yanks and their efforts in this area

>> okay

>> and he names I don't know six

universities uh in the Institute for

Advanced Study MIT Purdue Indiana.

Um I forget what what the complete list

is. And he names like Arnowit Deser.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Uh Dyson, Oenheimer.

And it sounds like the Manhattan Project

for Gravity.

>> Okay.

>> And

this is broadly consistent with this

story that I've been uh I think I first

did it on on Rogan in episode 1945,

which they gave me the Trinity date. I

love that.

um

which is that we have this bizarre thing

called the golden age of general

relativity. Yeah. which makes absolutely

no sense.

And it's a story about two people uh

Agnu Bainson and Roger Babson who appear

to be in the language of the

intelligent. Again, I'm not a guy who

thinks he's seen a bunch of Jason Bourne

movies so he can talk the lingo, but

they appear to be what I've been told

are cutouts. And they're both fitted

with stories, it seems, about why they

need to contribute in the ant to

anti-gravity.

And they find two physicists to work

through, one named Bryce Dwit. So Agnu

Baineson and John Wheeler find Bryce Dit

and set him up at the University of

North Carolina Chapel Hill at the

Institute of Field Physics.

>> Right. And then the other one, Roger

Babson, uh, out of New Boston, New

Hampshire,

uh, seems to be somehow linked up with a

guy named Lewis Whitten, who's a

gravitational physicist out of John's

Hopkins for his PhD

and found something that sounds like

Bell Labs that nobody's ever heard of

called the Research Institute of

Advanced Study or RA

and it has Sheldon Glashau within it. It

has Rudolph Colman within it. It has

Solomon left the topologist comes out of

retirement

to work inside of the Martin. And we

always talk about Lockheed, but we don't

talk about Glenn Glennel Martin that

became Martin Marietta that became

Loheed Martin. So, it's the Martin that

really matters. And to me,

>> correct?

>> And

>> and you and I have talked about that

years past. I've read the documents or

the websites you've sent to me and I'm

already familiar with elements of that.

>> Okay. I've got old newspaper clip.

>> All right. So, we we've got 18 talent.

We've got Sheldon Glashia, Rudolph

Common, Solomon Lefchettz, uh Deser

Arnowit, Dyson. This this begins to feel

like, you know, the boys are back in

town.

>> Yeah. This is physics firepower.

>> Yeah. Right.

And then the trail just seems to go cold

in the beginning of the 1970s.

>> Correct.

So, and I could never reconcile that. I

noticed that back in graduate school

during the 80s and I went to an APS

meeting. That's the American Physical

Society. So, I went to APS meeting with

my dissertation supervisor and I ran

into they had like a booth for the APS,

you know, all the books they sell. uh

the the the Physics Today magazine.

Well, that was published by somebody

else actually, but uh they have all that

for members for membership services and

benefits. And uh so they've got this

advertising booth in the commercial

exhibit part of the uh conference and

they had the APS historian.

And I brought that up with the historian

like what 1984

and Bob Forward at uh was still at the

Hughes Research Labs in Malibu. He's the

one that motivated me to ask that

question because he had been looking at

anti-gravity when he was at Hughes. And

this is before he got his PhD in general

relativity under Joseph Weber at um

University of Maryland in the late 50s.

And the APS historian had no answer for

me as to where this disconnect between

the Yeah. Where where what happened

anti-gravity research? What happened to

this golden age of GR? Uh he said he

said something the effect of similar

what you said. It disappeared in the 70s

but he never saw what happened. All of a

sudden roughly the early 80s now we have

super string theory coming up.

No, there's a there's an innergonome.

So we have this golden age of general

relativity.

Um things culminate in the standard

model 7374 in particle theory.

>> There is a period where there are two

great ideas in physics super symmetry

and grand unification

>> right

>> which dominate during the 70s. Then

there's a pre-stringl like craze for

something called n equals8 supergravity.

And n equals8 supergravity

>> supergravity

>> was the candidate theory that's too

unique to be wrong theory of everything.

And then right up until 1984

where we get the green schwarz anomaly

cancellation and Ed Whitten, Lewis

Whitten's son directs the entire field

uh to put its energies on one bet. And

this is where the the phrase the only

game in town which yeah I remember that

>> toget to o gi t the only game in town

and toget takes over physics where if

you say anything that isn't string

during this period right after 1984 it's

a bloodbath

and basically fineman is upset about it

is upset about it basically pleads no

contest and says I I'm voting with my

feet and going to go do this cosmology

in Texas.

And

years later, we get this very weird

meeting about AI, not not related to

physics, between Mark Andre and Ben

Horovitz.

And they're sat down and told, "Do not

invest in AI startups. AI startups are

not going to be allowed to be a thing.

We're going to have two or three a AI

companies and we're going to cocoon them

in part as part of the federal

government."

>> Huh. and Andre

uh and Horvitz are sitting there and

Horovitz says well I think they say well

how are you going to restrict this you

can't do it at the technology level

because it's just math and you can't

classify math