Is there any possibility we could intro?

We could actually start.

Uh, anyways, sorry. Welcome to the

standup. Today we have an extremely

special episode for everybody that's

watching the standup. For those that

don't know, this is the world's most

attended standup.

>> Oh,

>> congratulations everyone for being a

part of it. I hope everybody has their

blockers. They're ready.

>> Yep. Thank you. Thank you.

>> Unfortunately, interns still unpaid.

Still unpaid. Still unpaid. The interns

are always unpaid. But you guys, the

things is that I love you with the love

of a CEO. Okay? I just want you to know

that right now.

>> We talk about valuable work experience

that someday could land you a paying

job, right? Someday.

>> Someday you guys will get paid. Just not

here.

>> Not today is not one of those days.

>> So go get some coffee.

>> Yeah. Now go give me some coffee. All

right. Now, today our very special

episode. It has to do Casey. I was

absolutely fascinated with some of the

tweets you were making because Windows

11 uh actually well to to be fair, we

got to back this up a little bit. Uh

about a couple months ago, Satia

released a note of intent saying that

Windows hears you. We are going to win

back the consumer is exactly what he

said. And the first major patch since

that announcement just came out. And

that exact patch contained a new and

improved Windows run dialogue. And so

this is a part of their major push to

make performance more top of mind. At

least that is what Windows 11 explicitly

said. And as part of their announcement,

they said this is the fastest that the

run dialogue has ever been. ever. Eve

Ver like this is the best it has ever

been. Here we go. And they announced it

and it takes approximately 90

milliseconds to show on screen on the

median. So the 50 percentile. So we

don't know what we don't know what like

the 25th percentile. We don't know the

quartiles here. So we have no idea

what's going on. But we do know that the

median is 90 approximately 90

milliseconds.

>> It was 94 I think might have been what

they said.

>> Yeah. I don't know how they measure

that. That seems really impressive

considering most displays don't, you

know, they're usually locked to some

number that probably doesn't land on 94

every time. I don't exactly know how

they're measuring that, but nonetheless,

that's what they're saying. Absolutely

impressed with this performance, but

then Casey, you did a little bit of

snooping.

>> I did. So, I actually didn't. Uh, so I

just I I really didn't. I I didn't care

because like I said, I don't use Windows

really like anymore. week. We kind of we

kind of nixed that. Uh pun intended. And

uh so like I'm just like it's a it's

kind of just a like all right you guys

you know you can do your rodeo now of

where you decide to try and make Windows

performant or whatever. That's fine. Um

but what I was going to say is

originally I only saw this because Tim

Sweeney was commenting on it. I think he

was said something snide like you know

it's he said it was 94 milliseconds for

this you know performance top of mind

rewrite it's like a gaming monitor's

like you know 8 milliseconds to refresh

a frame like what's go you know what's

going on um and so the only thing I

really did was just retweet I'm like

okay popping up the run dialogue like is

is like a drop to 10 fps right uh

because that's what you know it's like

11 fps I think would be if you rounded

94 milliseconds to be like it'd be, you

know, it' be like 10.6

frames a second or something if that's

was your run rate. And nobody cared

about the run dialogue for the most

part. Pretty much people just cared

about the fact that I used it FPS as a

way to like explain what the number was.

Now, remind you, I'm not posting

anything original here at all. I

literally just like here is the

screenshot of the thing that Tim Sweeney

posted or was replying to rather. Um,

and I'm just like and I highlighted it

and I was like they were like perf top

of mind 94 milliseconds and I was like

geez like that'd be really slow. Like 94

millconds is is a long time especially

because like when you think about what

the run dialogue is it's not really like

it's it's a user interface interaction.

Whoa. Hey, is that HTTP? Get that out of

here. That's not how we order coffee. We

order coffee via SSH terminal.shop.

Yeah. You want a real experience? You

want real coffee? You want awesome

subscriptions so you never have to

remember again? Oh, you want exclusive

blends with exclusive coffee and

exclusive content? Then check out CRON.

You don't know what SSH is?

>> Well, maybe the coffee is not for you.

in

the dream.

>> You hold on right there, Casey. There's

processes that they have to create.

>> I don't know what a process is, but

apparently it takes 90 milliseconds.

>> Yeah. So, this was this was the thing um

where they were like, uh, a lot of

people just had a problem with this. And

a lot of people's probably the wrong

term. Like most, you know, it was a very

popular tweet actually, so I suppose

most people didn't have a problem with

what I said. Um,

but for the people who did have a

problem with it, there were two things.

One is they were like, well, this is

like, you know, loading. It's like how

long something takes to load, which to

me is ridiculous because it's like, no,

it's like a text box and maybe some

history. There's no there shouldn't be

any loading. Like this should just be it

it's a trivial it's you're talking about

like 4K or something of data that should

be required to do this thing. like it's

so minimal that you there's no question

you shouldn't be launching a process for

this in my mind, right? Maybe if you

have some kind of weird process

isolation thing going on because you're

scared that someone's hacking your run

dialogue, but then at that point we

should talk about why that's happening

exactly and other things like that. But,

you know, there's a whole sort of thing.

So, you could come back with some blog

post where you explained like here's why

it has to be a process and maybe I'd be

like okay. But in general, no. like that

should not be if the user doesn't

perceive them to be loading something

then that's not really acceptable excuse

a so I didn't think anyone who replied

with that I don't think they have any

leg to stand on so I'm sorry like I just

completely disagree with you this is not

a load operation

but that was relatively minor that was I

felt like that was just as you as you

folks say and as the kids say that was

just cope that was just like trying to

come up with the number for the 94

>> that was some cope

>> y um

>> a little bit of cope and also launching

node so you can use react that's all

just a little bit The bigger the bigger

thing was um was they didn't like the

use of FPS.

Uh and this to me is like I can if you

if you don't want to use FPS as a way to

like talk about how things feel and how

long they take, right? That's totally

valid in my opinion. Meaning I would

never go to somebody who quoted

milliseconds and say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa,

son. You should be saying FPS. Like I

wouldn't do that because

>> in this house in this house we measure

with FPS.

>> Exactly. Like I would never I WOULD

NEVER DO THAT.

>> NO MILLISECONDS.

>> If I did that to somebody and they were

like, "Dude, I quote these things in

milliseconds. That's how I do it." I'd

be like, "Ah, sorry." Like I was just I

Yeah, I was being a dick. I I shouldn't

have done that or whatever. Right? Like

that. I would feel bad about that if I

did that. Right? Not so with these

people. These people are like, "You

cannot quote FPS numbers unless

apparently

um because some there's some like

internet committee that like must have

decided this FPS has to be average FPS."

>> Yes, it's it is. So, Casey, you may not

know this, but if in a video game in a

video game, if you fire a gun, but you

only fire it once

>> and it takes 90 milliseconds, that's

just part of that's just Hey, that's

just loading. It only counts if you

repetitively fire it. And I thought

people were mad though, Casey, because

>> the run thing is kind of like, you know,

Anthropic sort of started the trend.

Everything's a game engine, Casey. Well,

>> so it's like they were they were so not

a fair FPS measure. Okay.

>> Alls I'm saying is So it what I would

say is if that's the way you want to

quote things, that's totally fine

because I like having both. My

preference is to see both. So I like to

see the milliseconds and then I like to

convert that to FPS in my head so I can

see like if I was hitting monitor

refresh because the way that I usually

like to program um anything that's like

a user interaction is I like to hit

monitor refresh for like what I expect

the target monitor refresh to be. So if

someone pushes a button then like from

the time that that button comes in I

want to try on the frame that it came in

I want to try to have the response to it

on this frame that's submitted at that

time right so you push a button on one

frame and the next frame that you see as

like should have it now sometimes it's

two frames because like there's a

compositor in the way sometimes it's

more if the TV sucks and it's buffering

a lot of like there's reasons why that

can start to multiply out. But the way I

like to think of it is like okay at

least for the code uh like you know for

telemetry which I assume is where this

number is coming from. If you timed from

like when the the event happens and when

someone actually got a frame, I want to

see something close to monitor refresh

or twice monitor refresh depending on

what you're counting there, right? Um,

and so this is actually legitimately the

way I think about it. Like like that was

not I think people were saying or or

were trying to uh impugn to me the fact

that I was trying to make it sound worse

than it is by using FPS. And I guess

what I would say is that is like no and

or yes and no. I I do think of it that

way. And yes, I suppose the reason I use

that number is because I actually

believe it's bad. Like when you're not

getting monitor refresh that I think you

did something wrong probably, right?

It's like especially if it's just I'm

popping up a text box or some UI thing.

I just think you did something wrong.

You should you should be at monitor

refresh just period, right? And if you

don't agree with that, that's fine. Like

you can just be like, "No, I like my

things to be more more laggy than that."

Um, you can totally make an argument

that uh you just don't care. You're

like, "Look, 100 milliseconds is what I

think is reasonable for response to UI,

so that's what I do." Uh, totally fine,

too. But like claiming that FPS is a bad

way to do it. I totally disagree. I

think FPS is a very good way for someone

to have in their head like, "Oh, am I

close to monitor refresh?" Like, I know

I should be hitting 60. It's just a good

like metric to have. And if you want me

to convert that so I always say

16.66666667

instead I suppose I could say that for

you. Did did that help? If I changed it

from FPS to hertz what like I mean well

cycles per second presumably they'd say

again it has to be average for some

reason. I don't know why those are not

intrinsic to the measurement. Frames per

second just means you took a count of

frames and you divided by a time right

and it does not imply that there was any

more than even one. actually uh

technically you probably need to have

two to measure something between but

like you know um so anyway I found all

of that ridiculous and very

disheartening because it just I I was

like this is ridiculous

all of that all of this for something

that as far as I can tell isn't actually

relevant anyway like because uh for a

couple reasons but here's the first one

they said in that same post that the

original run dialog experience was 104

milliseconds and the thing they were

replacing.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Was 94 milliseconds. That's what

they said in the post, right?

>> No, no, no. Not not not in that post,

right? I thought it was 400 millisecond.

>> That can't be real.

>> No, it was in the in the blog post that

I saw. I think it was 104 from on

Microsoft's blog. They were like the

original one was 104. This one's like 94

or something like that or 98 or I don't

like I don't remember the exact numbers,

but they were both very close to 100.

like one was less than 110, the other

was less than 100, right? So between 90

and 100. Um so

>> half half of the measurements are above

100 or above 94, too, cuz remember

that's just the median.

>> Well, sorry. Yeah. Well, I'm just

saying. So, um I was curious about that

because I was like I I don't know how

they're measuring it, right? Because

there's different ways you can measure

it. If you're if you're talking about

like a latency chain, uh, where you

press a physical button and then see

something, it's pretty easy to get a

response time to go up to something like

a 100 milliseconds. If you have slow

mouse, slow USB processing, the

operating system's a little slow, your

code is a little slow, the monitor

buffers several or the GPU is buffering

several frames, the monitor is buffering

some more frames. I could construct a

situation where some code that responded

potentially like like my little piece of

code that responds instantly still is

taking a 100 milliseconds because

everyone else in the train is screwing

me, right? This is a thing that people

who have ever measured latency with like

a camera know you can easily start to

beef that up, right?

>> Um

>> Yeah. Or you've ever accidentally played

a game on a TV set to non-gaming mode.

Exactly.

>> And all of a sudden you can you can feel

it when you're playing Mario. You're

like, "Oh, what is happening? Am I I

can't jump anymore.

>> That's why Prime loses in games.

>> That's actually why I've been on TV

mode. I didn't know that. I've been on

TV mode. I didn't know that. That's why

I lost at Fortnite.

>> Yeah, we used to watch TVs.

>> Yeah. When he used to do that doc when

he used to be do Dr. Disrespect and do

that channel, he had to stop playing

competitive games and create this

primogen thing specifically because of

this, you know, t he had a TV that was

buffering too many frames. He couldn't

win anymore. There's Call of Duty career

went down the toilet and here we are on

the standup. But that's ancient history

now. No sense dwelling on the past. The

point is um so I don't know where they

get this number from. Right.

>> I don't think Casey knows. We'll just

keep on going.

>> He Let's just say hit the end of his

career in as a

>> Oh, yeah. No, it was not that. No, I I

know.

>> Okay. All right. Just

>> Yeah. Yeah. It it it was let's say that

it uh

>> anyways

>> it involved trash. It was not Minecraft.

But anyway, um the the point is uh when

we uh look at these kind of numbers, who

knows how they're measured, right? Like

nobody knows,

>> right?

>> Um because they weren't discussed. So we

know that they were statistical, meaning

they said it was like a median. So

meaning we we know that they were

talking across a number of machines,

right? uh a number of configurations

probably meaning it's telemetry meaning

it probably comes from end user machines

but it's hard to say because again I

don't I don't know exactly what their

setup is for doing this but I was

curious about that because I was like

you know that sounds really high

actually from my recollection of the run

dialogue I was like I don't think it

takes 104 milliseconds uh from end of

click to showing the run dialogue uh on

on like Windows 10 for example

By the way, this is a very important

part because remember the post said this

is the fastest ever,

>> right? Which it may well

>> which tends to mean forever. It does

mean which is right which is uh which

good point is what I'm trying to get to.

>> So the part that confused me was I was

like where did that number come from? So

like on the on Windows 10 I tried

testing the existing run dialogue which

obviously is not the updated one and I

did a 60 hertz capture. Now I know that

60 Hz will make people very

uncomfortable. So what I mean to say is

a capture where the frames were capped

to 16.666667

milliseconds.

>> How many Casey is that in uh decaf

frames per hour? That's my preferred

that's the only unit that I prefer

discussing. So just you can convert that

again.

>> What is 60 in 60th up an hour? Um yeah I

don't know. Uh so I so I captured it and

captured a bunch of me running the you

know doing the run dialogue and just to

see what it was and it always responded

in two frames which would be you know

somewhere in the 30 millisecond range

depending on again if you were trying to

include mouse clicks or something I

don't know but assuming you were doing

telemetry from a machine then you can't

do that because you don't have a

high-speed camera sitting on so I'm

assuming they're recording something

like that and so I don't so I don't know

now So if they're using uh um that

number 104 as a median, well I tested

this on a machine that's a decade old.

It's 9 years old, right? So it's a very

old machine.

What are they testing across such that

they're able to get a number that's

three times higher than that as the

median, right? I don't know. And since I

don't know now, I have no idea what's

going on. So I don't know where the 100

millisecond number goes comes from. But

the reason I say this might just be much

to do about nothing is because if that

number is similarly inflated and the 94

is similarly inflated, the actual number

for response time might be much better.

It might be that number divided by

three, which would again be two frames,

which is fine, right?

um much much better than the uh you know

drastically increased three times

latency one that it sounded like it was

going to be which everyone I think would

have been correct to kind of freak out

about because it's like they are all

used to an experience where it's one or

two frames to pop up that run dialogue

and now it's taking three times longer

that would be uh annoying. So I I really

don't know what's going on here. I feel

like they needed to um if they were

going to make a post about performance

and they didn't want people to comment

on it, they needed to put more

information in there that would be

clearer about what's going on. And also

blaming people for having a reaction to

this, especially when they just quote

the like they just put a quote and be

like I think what I said is am I reading

this right? That's what I said. To get

really mad at someone who said am I

reading this right? This sounds really

slow is ridiculous. Like that's what

makes X so crap. The only response to

that should be uh either yes, you're

reading it right. This is kind of slow

for popping up a run dialogue because

that shouldn't really be any work. Or

yes, you were reading it wrong.

Actually, that 100 milliseconds is this

really bad way we measure it where we

measure it from the start of the click

to when we show it. And since we can't

launch till the person releases the

mouse button, that's an extra 50

milliseconds that's just padded on

there, right? Like that is the answer to

this. Not some snide like you can't use

ep. Like it's just it was garbage. Like

I really didn't like the responses that

I felt like they were ridiculous. And so

like I'm pretty I'm pretty thumbs down

on what people said. That is my

annoyance with it. The happy news though

is I think I think uh what's going to

happen is the run dialogue will probably

be fine. Um I can't say for sure, but I

think these numbers are not like they're

not measuring either what we think

they're measuring or they somewhere in

their test suite have 10,000 really old

buggy laptops that take an extra 70

milliseconds to do this operation and

they're skewing the median or something,

right? like like some explanation like

that. So until we get more information,

I think this is just a dead issue except

for the fact that people out there who

think FPS isn't a good way to intuitit

response times, I think you're totally

wrong.

>> I there Okay, I got to jump in, Casey.

So there is something about all of this

that you're really missing. And I would

just like to I I would love to hear

Trash's opinion on this one,

>> which is Oh god,

>> Trash, you've worked at Netflix now

since the great fall. Like Trash joined

and Netflix uh dropped by 60%. Uh

effectively is what happened. It was

more that was might have been 70%.

Anyways,

>> they heard that he was coming.

>> Yeah, they heard that he was coming. He

joins the company. Netflix went from 690

to 170 or something like that. It was a

d it was a disastrous moment for us. Uh

>> do you have like a bunch of like stock

from when you worked there? That tra was

did trash

ruin your retirement?

>> He did everybody a favor. He helped

people for a decade. So, thank you trash

for that. Everybody trash. Everyone give

trash a clap. This is why he's still at

Netflix even though

>> get those options down so they can go

back up.

>> Yes, exactly. There you go. Casey

stoning right there. Anyway, nailed it.

>> We've been at like you've worked on a

product that's sensitive to uh any sort

of code, right? Because the TV platform

is just it's a very hard platform. It's

a much slower platform than everything

else. Now, Trash, have you ever once

heard anybody at all in any point in

life ever talk about response times in

frames?

No.

>> Yeah. Casey, so this is something that

you might not know, but in the web

world, uh, nobody has ever once thought

of something in terms of frames. I don't

like this is a whole novel concept of

you being like, if something happens, I

expect next monitor refresh rate

something to happen.

>> Like no one's ever said that ever. That

would that would explain the disconnect

probably because to me so I like

obviously I was um raised I don't know

if that's the correct term

>> to catch on fire.

>> Um so I was raised in the era of during

the the v blink. Yeah. Right.

>> Yeah it was good prime. Nice vocabulary

buddy. Okay Casey continue on with

saying something smart please.

>> It's not smart it's historical. uh what

you normally would do, right, is you'd

try to have it so that you know you

update your stuff during the vertical

blank of like a CRT, right? It like the

scan line comes down, you update your

stuff and you come back around to the

top and you need to have everything done

in that time like for the next Right.

So, you're always I mean the the the

phrase racing the beam like made it into

the title of a book, I think, right? And

that's what that

>> was referring to. You're racing the beam

the like the the actual like uh CRT like

display beam, right? that the thing that

excites the phosphorus on the screen um

of the of a cathode ray tube, right? And

then went from there to like

uh in sort of like the Carmarmac era of

gaming like when like the Quake engine

kind of ushered in 3D and this sort of

stuff in in a big way.

um at that point like I believe he had a

thing and I don't remember if this was

like something that he said in like

person that I remember him saying or

whether it was something that he posted

in like a plan file um but I remember

him being like look if you structure

your

update loop in one way where you like do

your rendering it where you issue your

rendering you you update the world issue

rendering and then process input um

you lose a little bit of time because

some of the input maybe you could have

gotten a little bit be like just before

you were about to submit the the render

or something like like there was a thing

where he was talking about that and I

was always like oh okay yeah I I

probably should always be very

thoughtful of like how can I make sure I

get input as close as possible to

submission so that I'm introducing the

least like the little smallest amount of

latency

uh especially if you have something like

uh vsync on where you're going to like

if you like processed input and then

waited on vsync then came around and did

your render now there's an even bigger

gap between those things right and so uh

I've always I'm always used to thinking

of it is frames so input comes in on a

frame you should see it on the next

frame as close as I can make it I don't

want to be the weak link in that chain I

want it to be the TV that's screwing you

not me so I've always thought of it that

way so I always think of it as FPS and

Especially nowadays when like you know

when I do ping times on like the network

here even on this crappy Comcast

connection that I'm on um most uh

network on modern broadband internet the

actual ping time out from the person uh

to like a local to something that's

close to them is actually submonitor

refresh like you can actually get a

network packet to someone and back uh in

less time than like a 60 Hz refresh.

That's how good this stuff has gotten.

You know, people on fiber are getting

sub one millisecond ping times to things

like the no l Google node, right? It's

incredible. And so nowadays, I just

think everything should be thought that

way. Like it's just it's just look the

fastest we can uh the reason to do it in

frames. That's the fastest we can get

something out to the user. Like what's

the lowest uh uh amount of time this

monitor can hit? That's what we should

be shooting for. And sometimes it's

unrealistic because it's like, okay,

they're on like some fi north of 500 uh

hertz monitor. The operation we're doing

is too heavyweight. So, we got to set a

more conservative frame target. Totally

fine. But I I never think of it in terms

of anything other than that because

that's our limit. That's what I can give

you the frames at.

>> Yeah. I mean to be fair we do

>> in the even in the web world we do think

about FPS especially for like

>> animated heavy websites when you

noticeably see like jank and it's like

stuttering that's typically when we'll

actually take into account like FPS but

honestly most apps like

>> aren't really doing any animations it's

all just async crud apps just waiting

for something right so it's a more of

how long this take to load which we'll

use time like milliseconds verse an FPS

because that just wouldn't make sense in

that case for us

>> will TTF Is that what I'm hearing?

>> A little bit of that. A little bit of

time the first bite. Yeah. A little bit

of that.

>> I feel like that is sort of a separate

thing too is like um

>> you know to me the user should see the

response instantaneously even if the

thing takes a little while. So like

suppose I'm on some network and I'm like

look it's AWS so you know good luck

getting this response back in in less

than 30 milliseconds because like even

though the data center is is like 2

milliseconds of of of hop away or

something as soon as it hits AWS it's

just grinds to a halt right and like uh

that's been my experience and it was

like the the late the time it takes

light to get to the data center has

nothing to do with how long it's going

to take that they are just going to chew

through those milliseconds doing

whatever it is that they do uh with like

their switching and you know virtual

machine management or whatever it is you

know I don't work there I have no idea.

So assuming that you're going to do that

you're like look we're not going to hit

60 Hz or 120 hertz because we know this

thing is going to take like 40

milliseconds to get back from AWS. I

still want to show the thing

immediately. So like for the case of a

run dialogue let's say for whatever

reason I can't predict it. I don't know

the is going to do it. I have to fetch

their run history from AWS for some

reason because like it's oh it's a

shared it's like a synced run history

across machines. I didn't know they were

on this machine or some I mean I don't

know how that doesn't make any sense. I

should have sunk this ahead of time but

whatever. Um

I would fire off that request but

display the run dialogue on the next

frame right because I know that by the

time they're actually able to hit the

first key that I'll need to search that

run dialogue for I probably will get at

least some of that information back. And

I so I'm covering a little bit of that

latency and giving the user the instant

response that I want to give them,

right? Um and then if if you know the

response doesn't come back and they do

hit a key and I'm sitting there and I'm

like as not loading, then I have to put

up a little spinner or something, right?

Just tell them like look AWS is is

me here. So I get it like you

know run history not available to WS

response the little thing.

>> Um

>> but you know that's just how I think

about it. So like I'm not being

disingenuous. That is literally how I

think about it. Um, and it pisses me off

in games, too. Like, if I'm sitting

there waiting for a loading screen that

you I'm like, "Guys, you obviously could

have streamed this in." Like, why wasn't

this already loaded? Like, what's going

on? I get mad at that all the time. I'm

just like, the the goal should be zero

weight states for the user pretty much

ever.

>> So, we we've had a lot of arguments

about this over over the years. And who

you and uh my previous team uh shall we

say? And so one of the one of the big

things was what's worse, the initial

loading or inapp loading? Like which one

actually makes a user more nuts? Uh

which one's going to cause them to be

more upset? Would you rather have a

bunch of small distributed little loads

throughout the app or would you rather

have a bigger initial load?

So in my mind usually so

I would say that if I find myself in

that literal position

then my answer would be how often do

they load this thing

but

before finding myself in that position I

would have asked the question are you

sure are you sure that you couldn't find

a way to make this work because a lot of

times if people are like oh we have no

choice choice. But this long initial

load, I'm like, are you sure? Like, are

you sure that you actually did

everything you could to make that

initial package you needed to get

started as small as possible? Right.

>> Well, I'm on team bigger load initially.

That's

>> if the app is,

>> but obviously within a threshold within

a

>> if the app is loaded infrequently, then

if you have to make that trade-off, I

would say you do that. if the app is

loaded all the time because you like

typically load this thing, do a little

tiny thing, and then close it, then

you're kind of in this nasty situation

where it's like, okay, well, I don't

know. It's it's sort of just as bad,

right? Like because, you know, so I I

would say I wouldn't think about those

things as different. I would just say

there's frequency of operation and cost

of operation and you're trying to

minimize the total of those, right? The

cost times the, you know, the cost times

the frequency. And so if the frequency

of launching this app is very high and

the frequency of things you do in the

app is very low, then maybe it would

make sense to actually try to minimize

your app load time. But in general, I

would say like

99% of the time when someone's like,

"Oh, I needed to do X, so that's why

there's a long load time here." I'm

like, "No, you didn't." Like I can think

of tons of ways that I could have not

done it that way, right? Like strip this

out. Don't do it that way. Have a low

quality version of that thing you stream

in first. Right? Like think mega

texture, right? Or uh level of detail

would be a better way to think of it,

right? I know that I have something I

can display for this thing. It may just

not be the best looking version of that

thing. So if I'm caught by surprise, I

do that right away and then increase its

resolution when I can, right? Things

like this uh are are you can typically

do things to try and make sure that

you're very responsive. And you know, if

you then decide like, okay, no, we can't

do that because this thing has to be

senely. Sure, you can always paint

yourself into a quarter where you where

you absolutely have to do this thing and

then I agree you do, but I would make

sure all those avenues are exhausted

first is I guess what I would say.

>> Yeah, we do have like some techniques

that we call or that we coined call like

progressive enhancement which is

>> yeah the shittiest thing but if you have

a good machine then we'll slowly enhance

your experience right

>> which I think is fair.

>> I don't go ahead. Go ahead. No, just to

try and get that nice responsive feel

because, you know, um and that's again

that's just because that's the way I

like things. I like things to be very

responsive. Maybe some people just don't

care. They like they push the right

button on something, you know, if you

open up Netflix, you push the rights

button, it takes a while, kind of

lagging, it goes, uh I'm like, that

sucks. Like, someone should fix this,

right? If someone else might be like, I

don't know, it was fine, right? And so,

and so it really depends on who you're

talking to probably what their

preference is on those two things,

right? I don't know. Um, does that make

sense? Like, you know, some people might

be fine with that, some people might not

be.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's hard to Everyone has

a different threshold of really to

tolerate, right?

>> Yeah.

>> So, yeah, it's hard like who do you

optimize for? Like, there's nothing I

hate worse. I would hate to have a quick

experience like load or like a quick

loading experience, but then every time

I click something, it's like, ah,

>> exactly.

>> Now, now we got to now that thing I

think that's like significantly worse in

my opinion

>> because the clicking is more frequent,

right? It's that's what I say. Like it's

frequency versus cost. If you're going

to click a hundred times in this thing

but only load it once, you don't want

the hundred things to each take the long

time and the one thing to be fast,

right? That's not helping anybody,

right? So,

>> right.

>> Yeah.

>> That's what all my banking software

looks like. I like open like my banking

dashboard. It's just like 20 spinners

and then I click something else and it's

like 40 more spinners. I'm like, who's

making these banking apps? Insane.

>> Crash has just got so many zeros in his,

you know, it's just such a full bank

account. after spinning forever to

figure out what's in his account.

>> Progressive

zero is getting added to trash's bank

account. It's like,

>> oh my goodness, we have to widen this

div. It's crazy.

>> If I had that many zeros, I would not be

on this podcast. You know what I'm

saying? Happy traveler.

>> That doesn't even make sense. Stretch.

>> It doesn't.

>> You're not working right now.

>> Here's the thing. The wall of Pokemon

would be bigger. Pokemon would be much

better.

>> That's what I'm saying. Aren't you

having fun hanging out with us? Would

you still be on the podcast?

>> Yeah, trash. Trash, you're not paid to

be on this podcast. What do you mean?

>> I thought you did it.

>> Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. I said

what I said. I don't care.

>> Uh, red button, blue button, I don't

know.

>> I don't even care.

>> Oh, no.

>> That was still the best answer I'm

answering. From now on, when people ask

that red blue question, I'm giving

Trash's answer. It's the best answer

I've ever heard and I loved it. It was

so good. I don't like it.

>> I was exactly how much thought the

question deserved. It was perfect. I

like I that was a teachable moment for

me and I have learned from Trash and I

am a better person now. That's my

opinion. Anyway,

>> I really wanted to for the full episode

just like play I thought about just

having the edit be it does trash his

answer and then we play everything else

on 16x and then it just ends with KCU

saying

>> I hated this discussion at the end of

the episode. It's too fast.

>> I thought people would enjoy the overall

conversation, but I did think about like

publishing the full episode just with

trash answering and then

>> it was and then the answer. It was

freaking perfect, dude. I loved I loved

it.

>> M Microsoft has a bit of a hill to climb

>> because I I'm just going to throw this

out there. I also get an uh like an

update just recently that restarts my

computer like six times before the

update actually happens.

>> Yeah.

>> And I just read an article from

somewhere where it's just like it's

actually totally normal that Windows

needs to up, you know, restart your

computer 15 times for an update. Like

this is actually by design. And so I

think part of the problem that I I

personally have is that they're like

look at the run per dialogue performance

and it's just like well that's something

I virtually never use

>> because I just don't I mean I don't do

development on there so I'm not opening

something that needs that. Typically I'm

you know I'm opening a couple things

that I've pinned. I use Windows in a

very rookie way. And so it's just like

none of these improvements really help

me. I still run into bugs all the time.

Like right now, for whatever reason,

we're back into this state where when I

create a folder, it's goes to the bottom

of the list and not the top of the list.

Like all the folders are on the top. I

create a new one, it goes to the bottom.

And so I have to leave and come back if

I want it up at the top again. And it's

just like it's driving me bonkers again

that there's so many little things are

broken and I just want to like lose my

marbles. And then they're like, "Bro,

but run dialogue, dog. It's so fast."

>> But they didn't But they didn't say

that. What they said is we re we're

we're putting in a new run dialogue that

was made with performance top of mind.

And great news, it's basically the exact

same speed as the old one, right? That's

what they said. Like nobody said that it

actually substantially improved the run

the performance. So presumably what they

were trying to say was we added some

features, right? I'm guessing. I assume.

I mean I don't know because I don't

care. This is the other thing that I

hate about the fact that this tweet got,

I guess, so many likes that people

started replying to it with this crap

about FPS. But anyway,

um I'm assuming that the idea is they

added a bunch of features and didn't

make it slower, which is good, right? I

mean, like I'm happy that they

>> first time in a while

>> didn't do that, but at the same time,

it's like I wouldn't mention that,

right? I wouldn't have cited some

numbers and been like, "Hey, like we're

so proud of ourselves that we didn't

slow down a run dialogue." Like I'm

like, "Yeah, like like what? That's like

that's like par for the course." I MEAN,

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Like of

course you shouldn't have slowed down

the time it takes to open the run

dialogue. That's a blog post now. Like

what's going on? Right? So that alone

too is just very frustrating cuz you're

like now you're getting mad at now

you're getting mad at me for replying to

somebody who replied to your thing where

all you did was say that the run

dialogue takes 94 milliseconds which is

a hell of a lot of time for something to

take. And like how did we get here? You

know it's ridiculous. This shouldn't

have even been news. It shouldn't even

been posted.

>> Well to be fair the person that got the

person that most got mad at you was

actually a writer for something. It

wasn't that it was like a Odin. They

could have got Odin a Wikipedia page,

but instead Casey, you're now getting a

Wikipedia page being Mr. FPS, you know,

falsifier.

>> Um, except it's not false. It is the It

is the FPS. But yes, uh, like the

question I have um, there would also be

like could we, you proposed this trade,

uh, I believe to Jimmy Wales on the

previous episode. Let's propose it now.

I can go back and delete my original

tweet and post a new tweet where I put

the millisecond number in place of where

the FPS number. Now, mind you, my tweet

had both because I quoted the

millisecond number. So, it w it wasn't

that I didn't include that information,

right? It was that they didn't like the

even the fact that you could bring FPS

into it was just this unholy, you know,

uh absolutely uh ridiculous thing to do.

But anyway, I'll go back and delete that

tweet and only mention milliseconds. I

won't mention FPS anywhere in it in

exchange for them writing a nice article

about Odin um and how it's used at

Django Effects. There we go.

>> There's our deal.

>> That's a good deal.

>> That's a good deal. That's a good deal.

>> Right. We all Everyone wins.

>> Everyone.

>> Um by the way,

>> I don't know if you know this, but a

kind of a little update. uh this person

named Phil, which you can't really quite

see well on my or the stream can't quite

see it very well, but Phil over here

wrote his own version in which takes

approximately 20 milliseconds to show up

on screen and so he's able to show a

dialogue super ultra quick and his own

handwritten one.

>> Yeah. But the problem with that is that

like um I'm just I'm just going to put

myself in the mind space of the people

who were replying to my tweet. Okay.

>> The problem take a moment, Casey. Take a

take a moment.

>> The problem with that is is in that

demonstration doesn't mean anything

because that person didn't run it on all

the same machines and take the median.

>> Yeah.

>> It doesn't It doesn't matter. It does

meaningless. It doesn't matter.

>> It's meaningless cuz he has a different

monitor.

>> Also, he's not loading he's not loading

the run history from Microsoft One Drive

or whatever the heck it is that this

thing does, right? So, he's not doing

the the things I always get. They're all

ridiculous, but they're that they're

like um you know, it's not an apples to

apples comparison. Uh you don't have all

the features. It's the features. Uh it's

um it's the plugins. You just don't you

don't have plugins. Plugins. Everyone

knows that as soon as there's the

concept of a plugin, everything is takes

uh several seconds to happen. Um blah

blah blah. I think that's what he'll

people reply with with that crap to that

person even though he did it right.

>> So Casey, you're actually missing kind

of like a really fun part of webdev. Uh

which goes a little something like this,

which is all right, we're going to

rewrite something and we're going to

rewrite it. And here's our kind of first

implementation of it. And it is 10 times

faster, bro.

>> It's so good. the previous version. Like

this new version, it's so fast and they

release it and everyone's like

high-fiving and then

>> about 3 months later

>> after you fully rewritten it, it's

effectively baseline or worse. Like

typically it actually goes worse. Like

this happened with a very major project

that I saw actually got significantly

worse memory usage. And so it's just

like but in the beginning it was so

good. So, when I see like a run dialogue

rewrite that came in below budget, I

mean, you don't realize what this does

to me. Like, I can't I didn't even think

it was possible. So, I'm actually very

impressed.

>> I mean, like I said, I I don't know. I'm

just saying what people will say. I I

don't know. I I

>> I thought for Oh, go ahead.

>> No, T, please. I was going to say

initially when I saw the tweet I thought

for sure I misread it because I thought

they were saying the start menu thing.

The thing that people actually open. You

know what I'm saying? The one that like

>> sometimes you press the start thing and

then it like it just doesn't show up for

5 seconds and then it shows up. And I

was like

>> I was like good for Yes. Yeah. It shows

me ads for Edge and for Bing and and

like

>> I was like wow good for them. a feature

that a regular everyday person uses.

They rewrote from scratch and took from

my experience median of five to 10

seconds to load it feels like. And they

brought it down to 90 milliseconds. I'm

like, great. Good for them.

>> It's the opposite of that, right? Every

single version of Windows, it gets

slower.

>> The start menu is still bad and the run

menu that my parents don't know exists

is

>> My mom has never seen the run menu. She

does not know what that even means. Like

if I were to tell, oh, just use the run

menu. You'd be like, what is a run menu?

>> I I'm kind of confused about the run

menu to be completely honest because um

>> again, this is kind of like for

historical reasons. Originally, the

start menu did not really have the

concept of like type to execute. So like

if you look back at like a Windows 95 or

Windows 2000 XP era start menu then what

happened if I if I'm remembering

correctly is typing would be would be

interpreted as like trying to hotkey

through that menu. So like you popped up

the start menu using like uh the super

key or whatever or the Windows key or

whatever it would be called. I guess

>> the co-pilot key now Casey

>> co-pilot what? Yeah. Right. Um, you push

that, the start button opens and you

type a key. I think it just hotkeys

through that menu. It doesn't start uh

it didn't originally I at least my

recollection is it didn't originally

start accepting those as keystrokes to

be interpreted as a command of some

kind. If you now do it, like if I hit

that button, uh, it it does so like if I

hit the start menu button and I start

typing, it does sort of like a Linux C

style thing where you start typing into

a kind of ambiguous box that's just

like, I don't know, I'm going to do

something with this.

>> Yeah, the menu effectively.

>> Effectively, my question is,

>> why is there even a run menu to begin

with? Now, isn't that thing like what

why are there two different things? And

I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, I'm

guessing the answer is because the run

menu is actually going to run the thing.

Whereas the the box is like we have to

keep that as like an idiot box. Like it

has to be a thing where you just type if

you type in C colon uh back slash uh you

know, Windows back slashnotepad.exe

exe into that or something. We have to

show you ads for our new co-pilot

improved uh notepad that you or what

right like it has to it has to do all

these other businessoriented operations.

So that can't be the run dialogue. We

have to have this other run dialogue. Is

that the explanation? Because I don't

really know like I don't know why there

are two.

>> Yeah, Casey. Unfortunately, you're 100%

right. It will literally show you

internet search results in the start

menu in Windows right now. My Windows

machine

for the internet search results. It's a

thing. Uh

>> I find Casey

>> Wait, can I say one more thing about

that though, which is that Casey,

unfortunately, you'll be really pleased

or sad to hear. I don't know. Depending

on, you know, are we praying on

Microsoft's downfall? I'm not sure. But

>> okay,

>> often times it shows the internet search

result higher than the local program. In

my experience on that where you start

typing something, I start typing slay

the spire 2 and it doesn't pick the

game. It's going to pick a web search to

bring me to slayer 2.com or something

like that instead and opens it up.

>> Oh yeah, it does a bunch of stuff.

>> Edge.

>> Yeah, trash. Hold it up so we can see.

Flip flip your, you know, point yourself

away from the camera. Hold it.

>> No, you might reveal this one password.

>> This is This is a work machine. Hold on.

It might reveal his one password. Don't

do that. Don't do Don't listen to

Don't give away your password. Trash.

>> Oddly enough, I do have my password on

the screen right now.

>> I saved it. I save it in place.

>> No, you don't. Don't say NO. ARE YOU

KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW?

>> Oh no.

>> Was that a joke?

>> I don't think he's kidding.

>> Oh no.

>> You can't admit that. You cannot admit

that out loud. You just You just

>> Bro, it's secure.

>> It's secure.

trash. I'm just kidding.

>> All right. So,

>> Daisy, can I make can I make you even

more frustrated?

>> I mean, I I again like I don't care.

Windows, do whatever you want. I

switched. I don't care. The frustration

was the tweets.

>> Okay. So, that's very immature of you.

This is my own life.

>> Mhm. So, one thing that's kind of

interesting about uh uh what's called

the start menu is that you can you can

kind of treat it like a fuzzy finder a

little bit. So, I can type in like s

notes and hopefully I get what I'm

wanting. It doesn't quite work that

well. It it pulls up results. I can't

quite figure it out. But the run one is

definitely not fuzzy findable,

>> right?

>> So, the run one you have to type in like

the correct thing. You have to say the

program you're going to run,

>> which I assume is the intent, right?

like it's trying it's trying to be more

of a command line like experience which

is why I this is why I assume that there

are two which is kind of weird but like

you know yeah so that's that's the

that's the interesting one is that you

get a more fuzzy find plus internet

results one for one and a no fuzzyfind

one for the other one and so but the

updates to the one that nobody know

really generally most people don't use I

assume

>> yeah I'm assuming it's more more for

people who just like They they back in

the day they opened the start menu and

selected run which is how you originally

got to this or you learned the hotkey of

win r or something and now that's just

part of your workflow so we tried to

keep it which I appreciate them doing

like they could have just removed it

like you said very few people probably

use it in rel relative to their gigantic

user base but very few people in this

case is still probably in the hundred

thousands right because win is so huge.

Yeah,

>> I think I most often see it in um let's

see, Kit Boga videos where the guys are

trying to scam him and they make him run

a command.

That's the time I most often see the run

menu is they say, "Open up run menu,

type," and then they say something

insane to type in there.

>> By the way, TJ, just so you know, you

could always disable search results if

you wanted to.

>> Oh, I can. I don't have any computers

left now.

Okay,

just in case you wanted to if you know

it's one of the fantastic features start

menu. You can disable ads. It's like a

it's an available option.

>> We talked about this recently. I

literally tried to boot up an old

Windows computer that I had so I could

have it as a Minecraft machine for my

wife so that when we play Minecraft

together, she just has one computer that

we turn on and then it opens to

Minecraft. Basically, it got stuck in an

update loop where I couldn't download

Minecraft because it was waiting for

Windows updates, but Windows updates

couldn't run cuz it was trying to run

Windows Store problems. And so, they

fought each other. And I couldn't get an

update or Minecraft installed on the

machine. So, I deleted everything and

installed Linux and put Minecraft on

there faster than I could get the

Windows update.

>> Minecraft. A a Microsoft product. A

Microsoft product. I had to run the

Android emulated version of Bedrock

Minecraft on my Linux machine which I

installed from scratch faster than I

could figure out how to get the Windows

thing to work cuz I had to do the

because Bedrock one. That's the one that

we're running for my kid. So anyways,

it's crazy.

>> I think Microsoft should just start

shipping Linux. I think it's over. I

think they should just

>> put ruin that too. They should put a

Windows logo on Linux and call it

Microsoft Linux or something like that.

Microsoft Linux

>> Windows 12. That's all you have to do.

>> That's just it's Windows 12. Windows 12

is just Linux and they just and they

just like like send all their source

code to the wine developers because as

far as I'm concerned, it's over.

>> Like it's just it's over, guys. Like

it's over.

>> Instead of Windows Subsystem for Linux,

it could be window what would be the

opposite of subsystem? something that

can other Windows super system. There we

go. Linux. Yeah,

>> it's still WSL, but it's also C-pilot.

>> It's called Copilot WSL because people

have been trying I mean people have been

trying for decades to get things fixed

at this point now and it's just it's too

late. Like it's just like everyone was

forced to go do other stuff now. That's

why this is happening. No one wanted to

do this. Like like Valve didn't want to

make Steam OS. Like I didn't want to

change our machines here to Linux. I was

fine with Windows. They just they forced

us to do it by just never caring about

what any of us think. And so now we're

gone. I'm not coming back. It doesn't

matter.

>> Oh, great question. Can they win you

back? What would Microsoft have to do to

win you back?

>> They can't because I was That's what

happens. So, when you have a customer

who's been a customer for, you know, I

don't know, 30 years or something or 25

years, I don't I'd have to go count how

long it was. Um, since since like the

early 90s probably, I would say, uh,

when I was like in high school, I think

I started using Windows, but um, doesn't

matter like Windows 3.1 and stuff. Uh,

so the point is when you have a customer

who's been with you that long and had

all of their stuff like built on your

system and was used to it and you know

that was how they do their work.

The amount of work you're asking them to

do to leave is pretty substantial. In

order to get to that point, right, it's

not a like it's not a trial separation.

It's not a like we're just gonna take

some time to find each other and then

we'll come back and see if this marriage

still works. It's none of that. This is

a like I find you found you screwing the

babysitter and we're getting divorced

forever and I will never speak to you

again and I'm taking the kids. Like

that's that's how the Windows thing went

with me and I suspect that's how it went

with a lot of people. They were so bad

for so long and so egregiously anti-user

that the people who left because of that

are never coming back. Like I'm never

coming back ever. There's nothing you

could do to win me back. I will die a

user of some alternative operating

system. The question that they would

need to ask is how do they stop that

from happening to more people?

>> That's the only question left for them.

>> Casey, I I hear all those words you

said, the babysitter, all that. Okay. Um

but what if just hear me out here. You

know, you know how Hollywood stopped

having good and new ideas?

What if Windows 7 remastered?

>> Windows 7 part two.

>> Windows 7 Performance Edition.

>> Just throwing it out there. What if we

went backwards? Well, but the pro here's

the thing is that's assuming that uh you

know that's to to continue my analogy

that's just like saying I've changed

I what do YOU MEAN LIKE WHAT HOW DO I

know how do I know you're not going to

go if I take because now I have to do

work to switch back to your platform

what what guarantees do I have that you

won't just start sucking again

immediately right and none you've

demonstrated what kind of company you

are you've demonstrated how you treat

your users. You've demonstrated

institutionally what you think of us,

which is you don't think of us. You

don't care. When we repeatedly say you

need to fix this Windows update

situation, when we repeatedly say that

like all of these things are broken, the

fi like the explorer, if you

accidentally drag an icon over a network

share, it pauses for several seconds

unreoverably. How long has that been in

there? Right? Don't fix anything. I

don't care anymore. I don't want to rely

on you anymore. Right? It's gotten to

the point where some random people on

the internet who put together a Linux

distribution and put up an ISO are more

reliable to me than you. That is where

you have gotten right

in terms of what I think of your ability

to provide software to me that I can

rely on. It's over. It's it's it's done.

There's no way. There's nothing you

could do. I will, you know, I would go

start working on Linux to fix it before

I would go back to Windows.

>> So, not even XP remaster.

>> Brutal.

>> No, no. I It's the It's the It's a loss

of confidence. Complete loss of

confidence in the institution, right?

>> Okay. But what about Windows do?

>> Oh my gosh. Shut up. Hey guys, if you

like this episode, you can watch the

rest of it on the Spotify. And don't

forget to like and subscribe. Woo!

See you later.

>> Boot up today

errors on my screen.

Terminal coffee

and

living the dream.