Welcome back, man. Another speed running

podcasting booty call.

That's the hope. Do more hard things

every day is a great mantra, but it

should be less about ice baths and more

about making that decision you've been

putting off for 3 months.

Yeah. Um, I think that there's been a

big misconception around hard stuff,

which is just that, um, like running a

marathon necessarily means that you can

have a hard conversation with your wife

um, by saying like, I do hard things.

Um, but those hard things don't

necessarily generalize. And so I think

domain specificity is much more uh

narrow unless you decide to generalize

to an identity label of like I am the

type of person who can do hard things

because I ran this marathon or because I

do these ice baths and then as a result

I can then generalize that label to

other behaviors. Um but if you can make

that label and identify with it then you

don't need to run the marathon in order

to do the hard thing. You just need the

label. What are the hard things that

people should be focusing on more? What

what are the step change function hard

thing capacity skills that people should

focus on more?

I think it's being cognizant of what

what other what outside forces are

influencing your behavior in a way that

is aversive or against your goals. And

so if you're like, I want to start a

business, but I am afraid of what other

people will say, then it means that we

are allowing those other people to

control your behavior. And I think when

you say it in really plain terms like

that, you're like, "Wow, I didn't know I

was giving them that much power over my

life." It's like, I am not doing this

because of them, which means they

control me. And to me, like the hard

thing is in some ways just not allowing

that control to persist or to keep

going. M it is interesting how many

people can do hard things physically but

can't do hard things decisively.

>> I have so I have you know our security

team and whatnot and this is a

discussion that I've had with probably

each of them at different times cuz

we've seen combat and death and all that

kind of stuff. Um, and what's funny is

that like the amount of risk that they

are willing to put their physical bodies

in, like literally their lives at stake,

but then how that doesn't necessarily

translate to being able to have a like

call it vulnerable conversation with a

wife, spouse, lover, etc. Um, is just

interesting. And this is again back to

like these things don't generalize. They

look good, but they do not mean the same

thing.

It's weird that we

publicly admire the obvious hard thing,

even if that isn't the one that actually

makes the biggest difference to people's

life direction. It's not predictive of

being a good friend. It's not predictive

of being the best partner. It's not

predictive of being a successful

business owner, but because it's more

obvious, because it's more publicly

laudable, uh, you can flex it online and

you can tell people, "I ran a marathon

as opposed to

>> when my partner asked me a difficult

question, I didn't shy away from it. I

told them the truth."

>> And to be clear, I think that those

things are laudable in and of

themselves. Like, you go fight a war,

you go do like you go run a marathon. I

think all of those things are are

praiseworthy. It's just the

generalizable

component of that hard being, oh, I can

do all hard things, is really the the

misconception. But I do think that if

you if for whatever reason you tell

yourself a narrative that you because

because you did this hard thing, you can

do all hard things, then that's amazing.

And

>> by all means, if someone's like, I

started doing jiu-jitsu and it

completely changed my life, it's like

that's awesome. But it probably isn't

because you learned how to do guard

better. Uh it's probably because like

what guard what learning to do guard

meant for you changed these other series

of behaviors down the line. How

correlative do you think it is people

that do hard things physically versus

people who develop the capacity to do

hard things that matter?

>> Can you re say that again?

>> Let's say that doing hard things

electively versus doing hard things

decisively. The big difference between

the two to me seems to be decisions that

require emotion

>> and decisions that require effort.

>> That seems to be one of the big

delineations here.

>> So, so it's like the call it hard

conversation versus hard physical task.

Yeah. And how many people who develop

the skill to do hard physical tasks as a

transformation, how many of those do you

think carry over into being able to do

the hard thing emotionally?

>> Probably the same in the opposite

direction. The guys who are like can

have quote hard conversations with the

attorney who can get through all these

complex ideas and have whatever then

sucks on at jiu-jitsu or sucks at in the

weight room or doesn't try hard. I think

um I just think that skills are more

specific unless you generalize them.

>> How do you generalize? I think it's it's

it's creating labels on identity with

personality. And so if we if we if we

ident if we define personality by um the

aggregate of how you behave in all

conditions, right? So all these

conditions, how you act is your

personality. The label we ascribe to

that personality would then be the

identity.

>> And so if we decide to change that

label, then that label, this is getting

a little technical, but basically

becomes a global reinforcer for your

behavior. Like I am this, I am honest.

And so we make this label and then

honest has a lot of subbehaviors

underneath of it that we then act

because we believe that honest is good.

And so we want to act in accordance with

this global reinforcer for ourselves.

And so when we enter a new situation we

think okay what is in alignment? What

behavior is most aligned with this label

and then we do that and then when we

don't do when we don't act that way then

we feel guilty because we broke our own

rules of behavior. So the big lesson

here is just because you're doing hard

things in one domain does not mean that

it crosses over into all domains unless

you purposefully try to make your

identity wrapped up around it.

>> A thousand%. I said when when I um I

remember when I went to college my uh I

I wanted to pledge a fraternity and it

was in the SEC and they're known for for

hazing and whatnot. And so I I called my

dad and I was like, "Hey, this might be

like bad. I might have to go through

some stuff that's hard. I don't know.

And you know one my dad's given me a lot

of lasting gifts but one of them he said

think about every hard thing that you've

gone through up until this point. He's

like there is nothing that they can do

to you that is worse than that.

And that actually was incredibly

empowering. And I I remember when there

were more hardships that were going on I

just immediately went to the worst

things that I had gone through and I was

like oh my god this is nothing. So, I

was able to like go through this

relatively hard thing where there were

people who were like cracking and crying

and all this stuff. Like I want to say

grown men, but I would say adult boys.

Uh next to me. Um and I was able to

stand tall cuz it was just like there's

nothing that these other 21-year-old

guys can do to me that has I have not

suffered through.

>> It's a good justification for doing hard

things. That Rogan's got this line, the

worst thing that's ever happened to you

is the worst thing that's ever happened

to you.

>> Yeah.

>> And if the worst thing that's ever

happened to you is somebody misspelling

your name on a Starbucks cup.

>> Yeah. That's a big deal.

>> But if the worst thing that's ever

happened to you is a thousand times

worse than that, I think one problem we

have is recency bias that if you haven't

been through a tough time right now,

your memory of being able to deal with

hard things, you kind of get velvet

prison syndrome

>> and uh sometimes you can forget. You're

like, I guess chicks would say I'm still

that [ __ ] of I'm, you know, like I'm

I've still got that capacity. Uh

sometimes we forget.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the strongest

frames that has gotten me through those

harder times is that this is the story I

will one day tell. And so it just like

almost the more bad things that happen,

it's like the more epic the story

becomes. And so I mean, and the main

beneficiary of the stories that we tell

is ourselves because we're the we're the

the giver and the receiver of most of

the stories by by percentage of stories

told. We are we are the biggest receiver

of the stories. And so I think that's

that's actually been I think just such a

powerful frame for like of course this

this terrible thing will happen and like

doesn't that make the story so much

better?

>> Yeah. What's cool is I think when you

say we're talking a narrative, story,

personification, arc, hero's journey, it

all sounds kind of wishful in a way,

mythological, irrational,

uh, symbolic, but that's the way that

humans brains work. like we work in

story and even if it's

not strictly the way that the

neuroscience behind how the medial

prefrontal lateral cortex works in order

to make us a tougher person. If you are

the kind of person that tells yourself

the story that you're the kind of person

that can get through this, that is

functionally exactly what you're

chasing. Like what you're after is the

story. And by putting that on the front

end and going, "Okay, I'm just going to

keep on building stories that I'm going

to refer back to in future." I think

you're actually being more direct than

if you were trying to

take a more rational view of exactly how

behavior is put together. Like the story

is the rational view of how your

behavior and your identity are put

together.

There's a lot there. Um I think like

with the neuroscience and the and the

brain labeling and all that stuff, I

have no idea. So that's that's above my

pay grade. Um, but yeah, I just think

about all of our all of our behavior is

just in aggregate. We do what we've been

rewarded for doing and it doesn't mean

we get a cookie. It could also mean a

bad thing goes away. There's there a lot

of different types of reward. Um, and so

if we remember a story, um, so like

let's say you have that story of you

went through this hard thing and then

you survived, then it basically serves

as a reminder of the reinforcer of the

behaviors you did to get through it. And

so it's almost like um with a kid who's

smaller, if you're like, "Hey, remember

last time you did this? You got ice

cream." Um if you remind them of that

reward, then they're more likely to

repeat the behavior. And so I think we

basically use that narrative as a

reminder to in the short term increase

the relative value of a reinforcer. And

so if we think about like what is

motivation in general, that's

functionally what you're doing if you

motivate someone. Like if you sell

someone something for the short term,

you increase the relative value of a

specific reinforcer. didn't wake up uh

wanting to buy cologne, but you see an

ad and for the short period of time that

the ad goes on, it increases the

relative value of smelling good. Uh and

so as a result, it changes your behavior

and then you buy. And so I think stories

function that same way where we use them

to motivate ourselves in the short term

to do the desired behavior that might be

less comfortable in the short term, but

we're reminded about the larger

reinforcing event that we had in the

past. How many people do you think are

doing hard things publicly in order to

not need to face the lack of capacity

they have to do hard things privately?

>> I don't know them. So I don't know to be

honest with you. That's my honest

answer. I don't know. I think some

people really do hard things and it's

what they capture online is a fraction

of what they really do. And I think

there are people who 100% of the hard

things they do are online and they're

not even that hard% of the hard things

they do.

>> Yeah. And they're not even that hard

because they've got a squad of people

behind them. Like I always I I can think

there was a meme around this for a

moment that was like but you had a

camera there.

It's like girl collapses because of

crazy news or something like that. It's

like but you had a camera there. And so

you so there's just this this you know

this element of you know

>> mistrust performative nature.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> The three-step process of how to win.

>> Number one realize no one is coming to

save you. Number two take responsibility

for your current position. Number three,

be willing to sacrifice who you are for

who you want to be.

I think that those three is really all

about power. Um, and the realization so

the probably in sequence probably the

first one should come first, which is

you own everything. It's like, okay, if

I own everything, then you can still

hope that someone saves you, but it

still relies on someone else to change

your condition. And so it's like, okay,

I own all these outcomes. Um I'm not

going to rely on someone else to change

my condition. But you're still there,

which means you have to take the third

step, which is that I have to sacrifice.

They have to give up um something in

order to get something else. And I think

I think where people actually stay stuck

the longest in their careers from an

entrepreneurship perspective or just

from a personal development perspective

is um the trades that we are unwilling

to make is basically the desire to have

everything at the same time. And and the

easiest analogy I have is like

it is totally reasonable to want to have

a mountain view and be on the beach and

be walking distance from a Whole Foods.

Um

but you probably will not find a place

that has all three of those because they

are all at apparent contradictions

or you know apparent odds. And so there

but so so what happens is we just stay

in this paralysis of indecision because

we feel like all paths are settling and

I think there's this

>> movement or narrative around like never

settle and things like that but people

mistake never settle for never make

trades and so we have this obsession

with optionality or optionality maxing

but options are only valuable when taken

and so when we never take the option

which means we don't cash in the option

that we have available. Um like some

options need to be taken and when they

are taken other options disappear

>> because just having maximum potential

does not mean maximum reality because

you need to commit.

>> You have to commit which is the

elimination of alternatives.

>> And so like there I mean show me

anything that was worth doing that did

not require commitment which is an

elimination of alternatives a trade-off.

Um, and so in the beginning of our lives

when we're younger, we are we are

praised for maximizing our potential,

right? How can we have as many colleges

accept us? How can we have all the best

grades? How can we have all the paths in

front of us? But I think many people

know people who are really successful

earlier on by for maximizing potential

but not realizing potential. And I think

the gap between the maximization of

potential and the realization of

potential is the commitments that we're

willing to make, which is the trades,

the elimination of the alternatives when

we have to start cashing those options

in and realizing that some of them are

are never going to come to fruition

because we could only have one life and

some of those trades are permanent.

>> You can only not have a kid until you

have a kid and then at that point you

have, right? There's no going back,

right? Um, you know, some decisions in

life don't have refunds. Um, and and I I

I think I think that is what I would say

maybe in the earlier part of my my

career, especially single guys, cuz I

think a lot of that's like really

prevalent in social media right now. Um,

is just options maxing.

>> Um, but we just even even in the attempt

to options max, you still close off

other options, which is that like you

will not have the benefits of let's say

a committed marriage

>> early on because you've kept your

options open,

>> right? And like you will not have the

benefits of like a very large business

if you try to pursue five

>> or don't pursue any because you want to

not make commitments. And so I think

that commitment is actually a really

strong signal for maturation and growing

up.

>> Lots of mistakes were made by standing

still. Like people think that in action

isn't a decision but it is.

>> Totally. I mean your conditions change

through in action still like doors

close. uh there are moments where you

have opportunities where you have to act

or they will go away. Um and so I think

it's like being able to seize those

opportunities and that means that you

have to

>> actively say no to something that you

might want or might want a lot. And I

think those are the trades that we I

think I think being willing to make

those trade-offs clearly and trade them

for the things that you want more um is

how people can progress through life and

and get more of what they want.

>> The pain of having to accept trade-offs

holds a lot of people back

>> 100%. and then they end up getting

nothing. And I think that I honestly

think that is like at the crux of why so

many people are not realizing any

potential at all. Um is because they are

unwilling to make any trade and then

make the biggest trade of all.

>> How do you think about overcoming that

decision paralysis? Lots of good options

in front of you. Spent a lot of time

trying to maximize surface area of of

available options. And it's insane to

say, but it's functionally true for

humans that more options make you more

miserable, not happier.

>> Super true. And also, we probably know

someone, I mean, I can think of people

off the top of my head that didn't have

many options, but the option that they

had was very clear. Like this guy is a

super nerd and just loves coding and it

was very clear straight on. And so there

was a lot of things that weren't

available to him physically. probably

wasn't going to be the sports star,

maybe even in super great shape.

>> But like it was almost like that path

was predetermined. But then when you

fast forward, it's not like they're less

successful. It's that because they just

already knew what they were going to do.

They got to start pulling the future

forward down the one path and start

walking. And so there's again this this

like fetish fetishization of having

options and seeing that as a proxy for

status when the reality is that you

they're all blank checks. You haven't

cashed any of them in.

>> Yeah. And so, um, I think the original

question ladders to like

people get stuck because they don't know

what they want. And I define what you

want by what you're willing to sacrifice

to get something.

Take responsibility for your current

position. What's that mean?

>> Um, it's identifying yourself as source.

And to be clear, it doesn't mean that

like your position in reality is 100%

because of you, but from a so this is a

validity. This is a uh invalid but

useful more useful way of going through

life which is that it absolutely might

not be your fault but it is still your

problem.

>> Mhm.

>> Since you are the only one who you can

influence directly than you are the one

who is source and because like you could

still be correct in saying that like

because I insert grievance insert you

know trauma insert genetic

predisposition insert zip code I was

born in um or language or poverty level

or whatever it is. Um, all of those

things could be true and yet you still

have to take action as the only source

that can change it.

>> Mhm. No one's coming to save you.

>> Yeah. Which goes back to the first one.

>> The interesting thing about no one is

coming to save you also means no one is

coming to stop you.

>> I think some people might

I think actually as good as you start I

think the the lobster or crab analogy in

the bucket is in is so true. I actually

think that the the hardest I mean I I

think I mean for me again like the

hardest part of entrepreneurship was the

first set of friends that you have to

relinquish because once you do it the

first time you realize that you will

still survive, you'll still make it

through. You'll find new friends, but

like in the first time it's it's

sacrificing everything you've known and

loved for something that you've never

experienced and hope will happen and

have no idea if it actually will. So the

cost is known, the payoff isn't. And

that is why I think it is the riskiest

and why so many people struggle to make

the job.

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The world will reward you in proportion

to your courage, not your intellect. The

most dangerous person in the world is

the one who continues to show up every

day, even when the rewards are not

guaranteed. Your potential is determined

by the amount of uncertainty you're able

to tolerate and how long you can

tolerate it for. You can beat 99% of

people if you can master the shame of

rejection, the bord of repetition, and

the pain of feedback.

I was asked um if you could transfer

only one trade to your son,

what would it be? Um

and I really thought a lot about it. I

was like all the trades, what would I

tra what I would transfer? And I think

it's courage

because if you don't have courage,

nothing else matters. Like you can't

take the you can't take any action. You

can't do anything worth doing. You can't

stand for anything because you have no

courage. Um,

and so I think that's why it's it's so

much more preferable to be a failure

than a coward. And I think that I would

hope that I could transfer just that

lesson and try and reinforce as many

times as I can in his upbringing that

like you have to you have to take jumps

and you have to lose and you have to be

willing to lose and then realize that

losing doesn't actually make you a loser

because losing is the is the is the

first signal on the path to winning but

like not playing is the actual signal

for for a forever loss. What is courage

to you?

It's a really good question.

I need to define it better. Um,

being willing to take action where

there's a large short-term

cost

with an uncertain

delayed benefit.

So, if you want to start a business and

you think that you're going to get made

fun of or snide remarks or like, "Oh,

yeah, you're doing your podcast thing

again. Oh, yeah. Don't don't don't miss

out, right? You know, don't want to miss

Friday night. It's a big podcast." Um,

you know, you're going to suffer that

short term. That's a known cost. And

then the payoff is delayed and

uncertain. Like not only will it come

later, if it were guaranteed if you knew

you were going to make a million dollars

doing a podcast, then you'd be like

whatever, [ __ ] it. Like it it takes

significantly less courage, but I think

it's the fact that it is unknown and

delayed. So you basically have to be

willing to get kicked in the nuts and

multiple times and sometimes for

extended durations

>> before the hope that you will get

something. But I think the only way to

to to get through that kind of kicked in

the nuts period for however long it's

going to be um is realizing that you

have two paths. One that is guaranteed

which is that the path you're currently

on will not get you where you want to

go. And the other path it is not

guaranteed to get you where you want to

go but it's the only one where you have

a shot where you do. And that's where

your potential is determined by the

amount of uncertainty

you're able to tolerate and how long you

can tolerate it for.

>> And I think that also goes to the bigger

the games we play, right? That like the

longer the game you play, the bigger the

game you play. And so if you want to

create rockets that go to the moon, you

have to be able to deal with uncertainty

for just an absolutely absurd amount of

time compared to most humans on any

endeavor.

>> There's a line at the end, pain of

feedback.

>> I'm interested in that.

Um

I mean rejection hurts. Uh failing

hurts. And I think

when you when you when you give it your

all and then the market, society, the

universe, whatever determines that you

are still not enough, that is very

painful. Um I think that in time

you learn that feedback is fuel rather

than failure. And once that new

association gets paired, I mean, you've

had plenty of incredibly successful

people on this podcast and I would say

many of them have the same kind of I

would call it lesson is like it's not

it's not failure, it's feedback or it's

not failure. Um, but it just means that

like fundamentally they have a different

pairing for losing. And so everyone has

to go through this because like

like losing losing is good and feeling

bad about losing is good because it

forces you to change and that change

means that over time as long as you're

changing in the correct direction you

get better

>> or else you would continue to do the

strategy that caused you to lose last

time and you would just run it back

again. And this is why I have this like

I I thought on the way over here I was

thinking about this and um like I think

one of the big

losses or failures of society right now

is that we are trying to castrate the

teeth from the pain of loss. We're

trying to not allow kids people

the feeling to feel bad.

>> It's like we have determined that

feeling bad is bad but feeling bad is

not bad. Feeling bad is a signal. So

that we need to change because if no one

feels bad ever then it means that

everyone is doing what they want to do

all the time and that is not how a

functioning society works. Sometimes

people do stupid [ __ ] and need to know

and feel bad for it.

>> Eventually reality is going to come into

contact with your decisions. Yes.

>> And the more that that's put off the

less likely you are to come up with a

way to avoid that reality coming into

reality. And so, so the way that you

know right now what's going and this is

probably the the more frightening part

about like some of the media that's out

there is like trying to just redefine

reality and create a fantasy where

you losing and you feeling bad isn't

true. But it doesn't change reality. It

just changes someone's perception of it

for the short term and then they have to

pay reality back with interest in time

and like the check always comes due.

It's just like the interest is much

bigger. And so um in light of you know

my son my child that I have in the

future like I want him to experience the

pain of loss so that he can learn cuz

like how else can you learn? You have to

otherwise it's just it's everything's

quote you know going by feeling and then

also somehow thinking that feeling bad

is bad and also that feeling good is

good and there's tons of things that you

can probably do that feel good that are

not good and there's tons of things that

you can do that feel bad that are not

bad.

>> Well, what a gift to give somebody to

say you can feel bad and not feel bad

about it.

>> Yeah. It's and like and that's okay.

Like you lost. What will we learn? what

will we do next time? Great. Do it again

next.

>> It feels like resilience.

>> Yeah.

>> As opposed to any time that you feel

this emotion which is negative that is

worthy of rushing in and panic and

control and distance that that's almost

like a formula for fragility.

So laddered onto this I know we haven't

talked about so this is this is fun. um

is the idea that we need to like that

because you because you feel bad, it

means that the path that you're on like

you need to change something. And so

it's equal opposite which is like okay

if we know that we're on the path of

getting kicked in the nuts right now and

I know I'm on my 17th or 100th podcast

and I'm still not like a millionaire

yet.

>> I I have not achieved what I want yet.

It does not mean that I have to change

course.

But earlier on you said that

>> bad feelings, feeling bad are important

to update the way that you're

approaching this situation. So how do

you distinguish between the two?

>> No. And that's and that's u and I would

say what you what you hit on is is the

is the crux of it which is judgment

which is like and this is one of the

hardest ones is like how do you help

someone recognize patterns of

when you need to basically it's the

internal question of when do I push and

when do I pivot, right? When do I push

through the hardship versus when do I

adjust? Am I giving up on this set in

the gym because I'm being a [ __ ] or am

I giving up because I'm about to injure

myself?

>> Yeah. And so pivot. I like that.

>> Yeah. And I' and I've worked with this a

lot because it's a pretty classic

entrepreneurship issue of like do I have

product market fit or like do I need to

just keep pushing you like you know

where am I just trying to push up a

hill? Um is that if one of the

fundamental assumptions that you began

your quest with has been proven untrue

based on the feedback then that is where

pivoting makes sense. So, if you said

like, I think that I'm going to create

um a doggy skateboard because I think

that um a lot of dog owners will want to

buy skateboards for their dog. Um would

be like, and I believe that the

percentage like and I want to make a,

you know, a billion dollars doing this.

Um that would mean that there's this

size of the market. This percentage

needs to be the take rate in order for

me to get that that market share. It's

like, okay, if if I talk to a hundred

dog owners and none of them want to buy

my my doggy skateboard, I would not say

that is a push situation. I would say

that is a pivot situation because our

fundamental assumption that we started

this quest with

>> is false.

>> And so we need to take that feedback and

then pivot.

>> If as we're going through they're saying

uh maybe but like I don't know what you

have in your hands. What the hell is

that? So it's like the assumption is not

proven but it's more of an execution

issue. And so it's like okay I just need

to get better. I need to push through.

But it's like it is definitely one of

the harder um lines to to know like

where when should I push when should I

pivot? Uh, what lesson do I learn from

losing?

>> M

>> because losing losing teaches you [ __ ]

and we just need to make sure that we

learn the right thing.

Like teaching will occur.

>> Yes. Whether you take it away or not is

up to you.

>> It's the It's the um I I hired my first

employee and he was a [ __ ] Therefore,

all employees suck, right? So like

losing will teach you something. It's

just want to make sure that we learn the

right lesson. I feel like this is a

justification for making early decisions

as right as possible.

>> Oh, 100%.

>> To try and avoid that PTSD of it's far

easier to learn something than it is to

unlearn something. Probably a hundred

times easier to learn something than it

is to unlearn something. If you've

drilled a particular habit, a particular

bad habit, if you have come up with a a

mode of interacting with your employees

or the world, because all of your

employees, the first three employees,

you get all of them [ __ ] you over and

then finally you get to the fourth, you

have to unlearn all of the compensatory

mechanisms that you built on the first

three. Now that you've got someone who's

worthy of that, and you're restricting

their progress, you're slowing

everything down. You're being

hypervigilant. It doesn't feel like a

good place to work. Try and make your

early decisions, right?

>> Yeah. Changing a behavior with a long

history of reinforcement is harder than

changing one with no history of

>> it's such a hardcore behaviorist.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean it's the only thing

that's made sense to me in the world.

Like it's I mean it's been upheld.

>> I mean it's just I don't even it's just

my reality. So I'll say differently like

many people do not get what they want.

They look up at their lives and they're

like this is not what I want. And so if

you don't have what you want, it means

that the model that you view the world

through is incorrect or you have the

correct model and the incorrect

variables or insufficient variables.

It's basically all it is.

>> And so for me, the more I have looked

purely at inputs and outputs, the more

I've gotten my predictions correct. And

so I have been super reinforced for

using this style of of of thinking. And

so I do it more. And so it's just and

like I I I I read some of my old stuff

and I'm like, "Oh man, like I could have

said this in half as much words if I now

I because it's understanding why. Like

at the most basic level, it's just

understanding why." Um I'll give an

example and I think this is why the vast

majority of the world like walks around

confused, which is I don't have what I

want. That didn't go the way I expected.

She took that worse than I thought. So

you're you're constantly surprised by

reality. And so in in a simple sentence

like Johnny stole because he's

dishonest, right? Most people would nod

their heads and be like, "Yeah, Johnny

stole because he's dishonest." But we

say, "What does dishonest mean?"

Dishonest means it's a label, right,

that we ascribe to somebody who does a

series of different behaviors, one of

which is stealing. And so if we were to

restate that sentence with a broken down

definition, it would then be Johnny

stole because he's the type of person

who steals, which is circular and makes

no sense

because the real reason that Johnny

stole is because he's been reinforced

for stealing in the past or he saw

someone who got reinforced for stealing

and then modeled their behavior. That is

why Johnny stole.

>> And so because of that basic

misunderstanding, most people have these

words that they use to explain their

reality that they don't actually

understand. And as a result, reality

fools them more often than it should. he

was rewarded for it or he was punished

for doing the opposite of it.

>> Exactly. And so um that basic that like

and that what I just explained is is the

difference between description and

explanation. Um which is relatively

heady and I think difficult sometimes to

grasp but is at the most basic level

like my worldview.

>> This is what happened. This is why it

happened.

>> Why? Yeah. And so from that one kind of

basic understanding everything else can

kind of pretty much get laded up. And

so, um,

said differently, if if I wanted to tell

a child, get good at basketball, right?

Um, I would not tell him, get better at

basketball, because a 5-year-old would

be like, I don't know how to do that.

What does that mean? So, I'd be like,

okay, well, let's break it down. We've

got dribbling, passing, shooting. Okay,

do that a little bit closer, but they

still probably don't know how to. If I

say, "Go get better at dribbling,

passing, and shooting." Still can't do

anything with that until eventually be

like, "Okay, passing. So, I want you to

take a step with your left foot towards

the the person, and I want you to extend

your elbows and finish with your thumbs

down. Um, and if the ball goes towards

them in the direction that they're

running, and they catch it, you've

passed successfully." And then I would

repeat that chain of events until

eventually they would understand that

that chain of behaviors equals passing.

And if they do it a lot and they hit the

target many times, they would be good at

passing. And we'd repeat that all the

way down until they're good at passing,

dribbling, shooting, etc. and then

eventually would describe them as a good

basketball player. But that basic

unbundling and rebundling of terms is

why I think the vast majority of people

are wildly um confused by what's going

on around them is that someone says,

"Why don't you love me?" And he's like,

"What are you talking about?" He's like,

"I pay the bills. I take out the trash.

Like, you know, like what do you want

from me?" And she says, "Uh, like you

don't tell me I'm pretty. You don't hug

me. uh like you don't listen to me when

I when I you don't never never ask me

how my day is going. And it's because

for her she defines love in these

behaviors and he defines love in these

behaviors and so then they fight forever

rather than just saying like what does

that mean? What does that mean? Um we

had uh we had two employees that were

arguing about something uh at

acquisition and one was like hey can you

um I would be fine if you were just like

kind and polite to me and um I was like

okay what does that mean? And uh there

was obviously a moment of like

hesitation there cuz it's like okay so

you want the other person to guess what

you think in your mind means good

behavior but you've never articulated it

and so you want them to guess and

somehow get it right.

>> Mhm. And so finally it just was like can

you ask more questions rather than

making more statements and the other

person was like yeah sure it's like

great but that basic thing now and

they're fine now and everything's great

and so but like this is why I I view the

world and behavior because I have wanted

things but I didn't know how to get them

which is happens in reality and so as

long as I live in reality I prefer to

define things through reality and then

reality tends to behave far more as I

predicted it Ward. Before we continue,

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and modernwisdom at checkout. On the I

want you to do this, but I didn't tell

you. It's that Neil Strauss line,

unspoken expectations are premeditated

resentments,

>> right?

>> You do this thing that I didn't tell you

to do.

>> Yeah, probably not deliberately because

I think a lot of people do it, not on

purpose,

>> of course, but it's a unconscious

premeditated resentment. The the

investment that you are making will be a

resentment in future that you aren't

aware is about to come about.

>> Yeah.

>> Another thing on the uh people's map of

reality is inaccurate. I think one of

the most obvious realizations that you

can have when you hear somebody who

complains a lot is that their framework

of reality is incorrect.

>> Oh, by a mile.

>> A complaint is you saying, "Why is

reality not delivering that to me which

I anticipated?"

>> And reality doesn't care. Reality is

just going to continue to deliver to you

that which it is giving.

>> Why is there all of this traffic on the

way to work? There shouldn't be all of

this traffic. I didn't anticipate all of

this traffic.

>> Yeah. I assumed there wouldn't be

traffic. Reality disagreed with me.

Reality is not wrong.

>> It's undefeated.

>> Reality is undefeated. Yeah, it's a

million and0. A million TKOs's.

>> So, this is really I mean

I can talk about this as long as you

want. You know this. Um,

>> so what what this becomes really

interesting is um how often this

misconception of reality

causes people to get fooled and keep pe

keep the wrong people in their lives and

keep sometimes the right people out of

their lives. And so um I call this uh

malicious benefit or um well-intentioned

harm. And so on one hand uh

if there are a number of people who make

let's say negative videos about you,

they intend to harm you.

But when you look at your media and the

way that you are compensated through the

impressions that you earn and the amount

of relevance that you have, you make

more money. And so though they intended

to hurt you, they have taken their time

and effort which you normally have to

pay people for and then for free promote

you. What a gift. It just means that

they are incompetent at doing harm,

which is wonderful. You want all your

enemies to be incompetent in their

harming. On the other hand, you have

somebody who loves, I'll use this in

quotes, right? Loves you, uh, means you

well, but is also incompetent. And as a

result, whenever they enter your life,

your life gets worse. They cause

negative consequences to occur. And so,

a lot of people care a huge amount about

intention. And this was one of the

larger shifts that I think happened in

my I'll call it career, but just my life

um was completely stripping people of

their intentions and only looking at

their outputs. And that made navigating

relationships significantly easier for

me because it allowed me to remove the

noise from the signal of the person. And

so there are some people like I mean

honestly the reason that one of the this

is like probably the very beginning of

this kind of thought change was with Ila

like I had an adviser if you want to

call it that at the time and I was like

I'm not sure if I I want to marry this

girl. I don't, you know, help me, you

know, make this decision. And he said,

"Well, just look at your stats." He's

like, "Are you in better shape?" And I

was like, "Well, yeah. You know, she

eats healthy and she goes to the gym, so

I you know, I go with her." And he's

like, "Okay." Um, so you're you you're

exercising more, you're eating better.

Okay. Are you drinking as much? He's

like, "No, she doesn't really drink."

And I like drinking. I'm probably a bad

influencer.

He's like, "Okay." So she decreases this

kind of negative thing. Okay, got it.

And he's like, "What about what about

business wise?" I like, "Oh, I'm making

more than I've ever made." And she's

helping me do that. He's like, "Okay."

And so he just went down the list of all

these different kind of components of my

life that I could measure. And he's

like, "It seems like your life is

significantly better with this person in

it." Um, and when I contrast that to

some of the call relationships I had in

the past, it was almost the opposite.

Like I would get into the relationship

and all of a sudden like I wouldn't work

out as much and I wouldn't eat as

healthy and I would go out more and uh

my business would suffer. Um, and so

like all the things that I cared about

would go down. And so even though I

don't think that person had any

malicious intent, I think they had good

intent, but they had well-intentioned

harm. And so

that that that lens has helped me make

so many decisions in in a way that

removes a lot of the emotional weight

behind them, which is like, oh, I I

absolutely believe that you are a

well-intentioned person. I was like, I

just think you're very incompetent at

doing at doing good for me. Like, you do

not have the skill to help me. I'm not

prepared to be the collateral damage of

your good intentioned errors.

>> Yes. Um as you spin around trying to

give me a hug, but by accident punch me

in the face.

>> Yes. Like it's you're driving down the

street and because you didn't mean to

but weren't paying attention, you ran

somebody over. Functionally, the

difference between that person being

dead because you didn't mean to cuz you

were texting on your phone or because

you're a bad driver and you swerving off

the street to hit them, the outcome is

the same. And this is something that our

society actively disagrees with because

if we look at how our laws are written,

we try to tease out intention and we

change punishment and consequences based

on intention. Is that not important to a

degree?

>> It can be, but I'm just more saying um

I'm not saying should or shouldn't, but

I'm saying in terms of how you navigate

getting what you want out of life, if

you were the one who got hit, you're

dead either way. Mhm.

>> And so when any n equals 1,

I would look at the signal, what happens

rather than the intention 100 times out

of 100.

>> Is there any space? It sounds like uh

for as long as this person in my life

benefits me.

>> Mhm.

>> It's good to keep them in and the moment

that they stop benefiting me, then I get

rid of them.

>> Mhm.

>> To some people that would come across as

a very transactional view of

relationships. I think it assumes a

binary of benefit, not benefit. And most

people have many things that they do.

Like let's say somebody, let's say

you're like, I'm married to somebody.

What happens when that person stops

serving me? Well, it's very unlikely

that tomorrow someone stop goes from I

help you in these hundred ways to I

either hurt you or help you in zero.

It's more common or more likely that you

had a hundred ways and now 10 years

later they help you 70 ways and maybe 10

years later they help you 40 ways. But

if you're at least cognizant of the

hundred ways that that person helps you,

then it allows you to articulate, hey,

when you do these things, it helps me a

lot. It would really mean a lot to me.

Um,

>> reinforcement again.

>> Yeah. I mean, and and and

I appreciate the the Yes. Um um but like

in different terms, I was going to I was

going to put my my Chris hat on. This is

just good communication, right? Like how

do I know what you want until you tell

me? And I think that people say what you

just said, which is um people would see

this as transactional. And then I would

say and

yes and why is this wrong? Why have you

decided that having an exchange is

incorrect? It's how society works. All

of capitalism, which is the best

societies have been built on exchange,

voluntary exchange.

>> I think some people would feel icky

about applying that exchange capitalism

dynamic inside of friendships and

intimate relationships.

>> I think that exchange happens either

way. They just don't want to say it. If

if you have a friend and you are like ah

we're we're ride or die. It means you

have a long history of reinforcement

which means you have a long extinction

curve. It just means that you've been

reinforced many times for this

friendship which means that you're

willing to deal with blips but the

amount of blips that you're willing to

deal with is proportional to the history

of reinforcement. If someone new comes

into your life and has almost done

nothing good and then does a blip, you

don't have as much balance in the

system.

>> Exactly. You have no reason to. So the

hope the basically the extinction curve

is functionally just how long you're

willing to hope that the good thing

comes back.

>> You probably should have a degree of

recency bias though.

>> Oh yeah. Because if the person's

behavior is change Yeah. for sure it's

going to be it's always discounted.

>> Someone that was 50% a good guy and 50%

an [ __ ] The 50%

>> that is closest to you is more salient

than the 50% that started 10 years ago.

>> Oh yeah. If it was front half back half,

100%. And that's and honestly and this

is like I think this is super relevant

for a lot of people like people do

change.

And that's okay. And you can be friends

with the person they once were and no

longer friends with the person they are.

And that's okay.

>> Mark Manson dropped this unreal line

that reminded me of you.

>> Okay.

>> Do hard [ __ ] Not because it's fun, but

because the win actually means

something. You bled for it. You broke

for it. You earned it. Easy wins are

forgettable. Hard ones change you.

That's the point.

That's your line. Everything is hard and

no one cares.

Um, I'm sorry accomplishing your dreams

wasn't fast, easy, and risk-f free.

Like,

they wouldn't be dreams if they were,

and you wouldn't call them wins if they

were easy, cuz they would just be you

tying your shoes. And what was once a

win when you were five is no longer a

win when you're competent. And with

increased competence comes increased

stakes. You have to be willing to bet

more, put more on the line to win

bigger. Which means like if you're a

billionaire playing $10 hands of poker

is a complete waste of time. Uh Gabe

from I Prevail. He's the drummer from I

Prevail.

>> You will always think you suck. That's

okay. It's okay to suck compared to your

standards. As you grow, so will your

standards. That doesn't mean you

actually suck.

Yeah. I think it just be the the

actuality of sucking versus the

perception of sucking.

>> Correct. It's that as as you increase in

capacity, you increase in standards. And

given that your standards will always

outstrip your capacity, there will

always be this felt sense lack between

where I am and where I want to be. But

yeah, that Mark Manson line I think is

really important in sort of an era of AI

because you can speedrun or shortcut

getting the outcome without putting in

the requisite inputs. Now, because

everybody's obsessed with leverage and

trying to get as many outputs from as

few inputs as possible, that does make

sense. But when you begin to fully

detach it from it and you don't focus on

the journey that got you there in the

same way and you're not scrutinizing the

outputs with the same level of finitude

and and resolution cost.

>> Yes.

>> Yes. And it's not just the outputs that

matter. It's not just the output. And

this is where the sort of leverage crowd

doesn't fully come into reality. It

doesn't come into contact with the way

that humans are telling themselves the

story of their life. If all if you could

come up with some sort of super quick

code that would write hundred million

dollar leads for you,

>> the entire project would feel different.

Your process of getting that it could be

word for word the exact same. Take every

word that I've written and create this

book based on this brief. Think

>> Mhm.

I would prove that AI knew a lot about

leads but not me. And I think that I

mean um I think this this this sits at

the discrepancy between saying the

output of your life is

who you become and the aggregate set of

behavior that you've learned over your

life or if the output of your life is

the stuff that you that exists as a

result of you being here. Um and that is

more of a philosophical question than I

think it is a like right or wrong. I

think you can make arguments for either

side of like the p the purpose of your

life is what changed as a result of you

being here, what you did or who you

became.

>> Yeah. Um or the purpose of your life is

all of the outside only existed to

change the inside. And I think there's

there's arguments for both. I have I'm I

would say I have strong affinity towards

both definition definitions because um I

would say that when I go through harder

times, I lean more towards like this is

happening for me. And when I'm going

through easier times, it's like I'm hap

I I am happening to it.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm happening to reality.

>> But the binary of that

>> Yeah.

>> seeing it as only one or the other will

create a kind of fragility. If all that

you're focused on is outcomes, then

you're never going to think about

becoming the person who can generate

those outcomes because you're going to

find shortcuts that don't necessarily

work. And if you're only ever focused on

inputs, you're never going to actually

work out if all of this suffering

amounted to anything. Show me some

George uh in the house last night was

reading one of these books and he he

wasn't happy with the way that the

author had put together the sentence and

he says show me something I can drop on

my foot.

>> That was his line. Like I can't drop

anything on my [ __ ] foot with this.

Show me something I can drop on my foot.

Wishywashy vague language. Do you

remember the park bench scene in

Goodwill Hunting?

>> No. I think it long enough ago. Yeah.

>> Sound of park bench. Robin Williams

talking to Matt Damon about love and he

has this line. He says, "Love is an

active commitment, Will. It's a choice

to value someone else's well-being as

much as your own." If you watch the

film, you'll know that he doesn't say

that. He says this instead. You wouldn't

know about sleeping sitting up in the

hospital room for 2 months because the

doctors could see in your eyes that the

term visiting hours do not apply to you.

It's the same thing, same idea, right?

Idea, picture, words. And that is the

order. Not idea, words, pictures. Show

me something I can drop on my [ __ ]

foot.

>> That I can drop on my foot.

It's clear language.

Both of them. Both of the examples.

I think it's interesting because with

the drop on your foot, it's like I think

the the the picture is obviously like

more emotive. Um,

and because of that can be more

motivating, more persuasive, etc. Where

I think the drop on drop on my foot part

where I like where where I have

struggled as a human being is taking

that idea and saying I want to do that.

I want that type of love. And then

saying, well, the person I love is not

in the hospital and I don't have the

opportunity right now to sleep standing

up and have a doctor know that visiting

hours don't apply to me.

>> What do I do?

>> And so then it does go back to um what

I'm willing to give up in order to

maintain something. But

>> it's interesting when there isn't that

level of pressure.

You know, when you brush up against the

grain of life, when you're swimming into

the stream, it's very easy to see effort

because the whole world is bearing down

on you. So, there's an enemy to go up

against. I think when things are easy,

like, okay, well, what does love look

like when things are easy? Uh, we

talking relational love. Yeah.

I think it's really, well, I'll just say

more how I measure it. Um, but I think

it's just what you're willing to give up

in order to maintain something. And so

if I have a relationship and I have

somebody that I love a lot that I'm

willing to give up everything, including

my life in order to maintain that

relationship. Um,

and so or for that person or for that

idea, for freedom, for the country. Um,

if you love something a lot, you're

willing to give up everything for it.

Um, and so when that person asks you to

do something or doesn't ask you to do

something and you think that they would

still like it,

>> then you are willing to inconvenience

yourself to a large degree in order to

do that. Um, and I think that like the

reason this stuff is so valuable for me

is that like

it allows me to both give the things

that I think the other person wants or

that they've told me they want, but also

how to differentiate who is using words

in order to try and manipulate me. when

someone like dude dude you know I love

you know um if it was bromance obviously

um

>> but then you could say what have you

given up in order to maintain this in

what way have you inconvenienced

yourself uh in order to maintain this

relationship

because all of the actions you've taken

you've taken out of convenience and this

relationship has been only beneficial

for you

>> which is fine there's nothing wrong with

that but there will come a time where

our needs are at odds

>> and in that situation I would like to

know how reinforcing was all the other

stuff so that it is worth basically it's

saying like how much good was the good

for you so that you're willing to deal

with some bad can that lead to a

situation where you almost purposefully

try to seek out difficulty in an attempt

to stress test relationships because

>> not all relationships should have it the

the glorious friendship would be

seamless between you and another guy and

there's never anything you have to

navigate and it's all just beneficial

and positive in both directions.

>> I have a friend like that. I've been

friends since sixth grade and I don't

think we've ever had conflict which is

great and rare and that's why we are so

friends. Um but no, I think that it's

it's okay for conflict to occur. It's

okay for seasons of friendship to end.

Um, but you can measure how how how good

of friends you are by how and I don't

know how much inconvenience he might be

willing to deal with with me, but we

just it just so happens that we really

haven't had any need for conflict or

competition.

>> He's a an FBI agent and so his measures

of success, like he has zero, there's no

jealousy, there's no envy, there's no

anything. It's just like, how many bad

guys you catch today? He's like, bro,

you got to hear this one, right? And so

we can just and he's like, you know,

then he'll just ask ridiculous questions

about money stuff because he just thinks

it's funny.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So, and and that has worked out well.

But

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You're behind because you're in a rush.

>> And you're in a rush because you feel

behind. and you feel behind because

you're in a different season than the

people you're comparing yourself to.

You're not behind. You're just early.

Yeah. It's measuring the output

difference with um

without comparing the input difference.

I think it's basically it. It's like uh

why isn't my podcast like Rogan's? It's

like okay well he's got 10 more year. I

don't you would know the the answer to

that, right? 10 more years and however

many more podcasts um more and so it's

okay well if I were to match that and

have done it back in time would I have

the same would I be bigger

>> the same skill with the same

>> all of that and so it's it's it's it's

comparing outputs without comparing

inputs and I really just think it comes

down to that at the most basic level now

most of the time um you are early

because most people who make that I

would call it uh error in judgment are

earlier in their careers and I also

don't think there's anything necessarily

wrong like a lot of people are like

comparison is the thief of joy. Um, I

don't agree with that. I think

comparison is how you measure things.

Like this this this is the discrepancy.

Labeling the discrepancy as bad as the

thief of joy.

>> Comparison in general is how you can

know what the discrepancy looks like

between what you want and what you have

so that you can fix it.

So, we should compare. Absolutely. You

should compare yourself to Rogan. I'm

just using you. But like, you know, I

should compare myself to Elon. Of

course, I should. Um, so I could look at

the massive discrepancy between between

me and Elon. Um, and that just gives me

clarity on what things I need to do to

try and decrease that.

>> How do you think about getting rid of

the label of bad?

>> I think that

the first the first action you take when

you have not been reinforced for an

action you do through modeling. So, and

this is why we do these types of

podcasts. I assume I mean is that if you

haven't done the hard thing or the hard

thing that you want to do or taking the

bet or taking the risk, we look for

other people who have been the penguins

who jumped off the edge first and was

there an alligator. Well, no alligators

for penguins, but polar bear at the

bottom uh to to eat them or did they

swim and get to the next iceberg and

then they found whatever. Um so we look

at other people and so modeling is a

very real way. That's how you learn

everything when you're a child is you

look at what other people do. Good

things happen to them. Okay, I'm going

to do that. And so in the short term, we

model the long-term play is that once

you take that first step, ideally you

don't get eaten by a polar bear and

instead you also get a fish and then you

go up and then you get reinforced for

that and then basically every moment

after that is your own experience

becomes the loop. But the first jump

comes from looking at whatever everyone

else does and then takes the jump. Now,

where that's so difficult to do is that

you're looking what everyone else is

doing or at least the people that you

want to emulate, which is, you know,

really important. Like, don't listen to

the people closest to you. Listen to the

people closest to your goals. Um, which

is not necessarily the same people,

often not. Um, I want to listen to them.

I want to look I want to model their

behavior. Um, but then also still

ignoring all of other people. So, it's

like I'm listening to these people. I'm

ignoring these people. But behavior is

tough because you're still valuing other

people a lot. Yeah. Um and so I think

this is why so many I would say again I

come from the entrepreneur side but like

successful entrepreneurs have a very

first principles approach of thinking

because at some point no one has gone to

the moon and you just have to say like

does physics prevent me from doing this

and then when you reason everything from

the ground up um you're able to find

discrepancies between what people

believe and what's true and that's

obviously where opportunity exists.

your David Deutsch pill with that. Does

physics

prevent me from being able to achieve

this? If not, then I just think

possible. Yeah, it is possible. Yeah. I

think one of the reasons that these

episodes

resonate

is that

a lot of people who want to do things

aren't around people who know how to do

them. And the harder the thing is that

you're trying to achieve, the rarer it

is to find people who are able to

support you in the doing of it or and

not even just support you, but give you

legitimate advice about how to get that.

>> I I 100% agree and this is something

that I've I' I've struggled a lot with

because the what gives you the

credibility to gain media and attention

is being exceptional in some domain most

of the time. And being exceptional in a

domain makes you unrelatable.

And so it's kind of this very difficult

uh catch 22 where

>> credibility and relatability are

inverse,

>> right? And I but like to your point,

poor people are surrounded by other poor

people and then assume that that is

everyone because it's everyone they

know, not everyone that exists, but it's

their everyone as far as they're

concerned. And I think that's what makes

it so difficult in the beginning to to

get out of that first bubble is because

you have to look outside and look at

some people who might even appear

unrelatable and try and grasp at the

straws of their character, their origin

story where again people could hear me

say that I slept on the floor that I

didn't have enough money, whatever. But

like they only see me not then. No one's

interviewing the gym owner who's

sleeping on the floor who's going to

someday become something because they

don't know yet. That's your one regret

or one of the regrets that I have that's

the same as yours which is I didn't

track the early journey enough.

>> If anyone is listening to this I I I'm

not a big advocate of regrets in general

but like a behavior that I would have

changed that I don't think would have

changed the outcome is like document and

you don't have to share you don't have

to share it publicly. Just take

pictures, take voice notes, email

yourself, whatever whatever catalog you

want. I remember one of the most

important personal moments that I had

was when I lost everything for the first

time. Um, I screenshotted my bank

account. So, I went from having, you

know, six successful gyms to losing all

of it and having $1,000 to my name. And

I remember looking at my bank account. I

was like,

"Wow, that's what the bottom of the

barrel looks like. That is," and I

hadn't, you know, seen a number that low

in a very, very, very long time. Even in

high school, I had more than that just

cuz I had jobs and I didn't have

expenses. And so, um, I screenshotted it

and it was this very cathartic moment

for me because I was like, never again.

Like, I will not let this happen and I

will have this be part of the story I

tell. And I still have that screenshot

and I show it because like, so

basically,

you want to document it because you

believe that you will be the hero that

will overcome. And I think that if you

can if you can really just grasp it,

like just beginning the documentation

story, like even the fact that Kanye had

some of those early videos, it's like he

believed that he would make it and he

believed he would use it. And so I think

one of the one of the greatest things

you can do is and it was like it was

almost like at that point like I I I

believed when I took that screenshot

that I was going to win and I did

believe I was going to get it back.

>> Um and so the earlier you can have that

realization that like I have to document

this monster otherwise I won't be able

to tell the story. And the story, the

receiver of that story, the biggest

beneficiary of that story is you.

>> I wish I'd done the same. I wish that

I'd done the same. You know,

all the way back in my previous life,

there was a a period in my placement

year, I would have been 20. I was living

in Scotland. And one of the problems

that you have with running businesses in

events, especially long single outcome

events, is that it's all costs until you

finally get to cash in the revenue. And

there was a dwindling pot of money that

we had because we were putting all of

this time in and driving from Edinburgh

to Glasgow to Sterling to Dundee to come

back to hand out flyers, to manage the

guest listers, to restock the bars with

the t-shirts, to sell the thing. And the

event wasn't going to happen for another

month. And that just meant it was all

output. I needed to pay for my gym

membership and I needed to eat food and

I needed to drive to these different

places. Dwindled, dwindled, dwindled,

dwindled. And we're not going to get to

withdraw this money until it happens.

And I had a friend who came to help me

hand out flyers cuz my business partner

needed to look after freshers week in

Newcastle and I was going to look after

freshers week across all of Scotland. I

had my friend who came up a bit of a

rough dude but nice guy and he'd grown

up in serious poverty in the northeast

of the UK and this was the first time

that I was out of money zero zero money

and I could have rung my parents and I'm

sure that they would have sent me some

cash but I had too much pride and I felt

too ashamed to do it and there was this

moment where we were in this flat and uh

Saki Hall Street in Edinburgh on the far

side of Edinburgh uh sorry Dean Park

Road Dean Park road on the other side of

Edinburgh and I was saying, "Hey, man,

like I uh we're out of food in the house

and I I don't know where we're going to

get it from." He, "Oh, don't worry, man.

I'll just go and steal some."

And his background, his background from

his upbringing was that when you run out

of money, you go and steal food. And I

remember thinking,

>> "Yeah, it's world.

>> I've got myself to the point in life

where

stealing food is a realistic

decision." And that do I want to video

my friend Dean like stealing sandwiches

from the Tesco around the corner?

Probably not. But the fact that that

story only exists for me in my mind and

then the only way that I can communicate

the lessons that I took from it and the

way that it made me feel is by having to

go through this retelling. Uh yeah,

capture [ __ ] especially in the

beginning.

The worst case scenario is you delete

it.

Like that's the I'm just saying for like

what's the downside of doing it? The

downside of doing it is that you quote

don't use it and that you delete it. But

the like the upside of having it as an

artifact of kind of the stepping stones

of of who you wanted to become I think

is invaluable.

>> Everything looks like luck to the

unskilled. Ignore them.

>> Yeah.

Um

you have to have skill.

In order to perceive and recognize

skill, you have to have a base level of

skill. Now, you don't have to have the

same level of skill as somebody else,

but the greater skill you have in any

domain, the more you appreciate the

skill of somebody who's exceptional. So,

for example, if you don't understand the

rules of basketball, it's just guys

passing a ball around and you don't know

who scores or how it works or why

they're wearing different shirts. Like,

you have no understanding what's going

on.

>> Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a great example

of this.

>> No idea. Is that good? Is he Is the guy

>> Is he winning?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Who's winning? Who's

winning?

>> Right. And then the And then the greater

your skill, the greater your

appreciation for how how good someone is

at that thing.

>> Resolution, more dexterity.

>> 100%. And so like for that reason, if if

people who are around you as you begin

to walk, you know, up the ascension of

beginning to get successful, you have

your first signs of life like, "Oh my