You do think about is it [music]

selfish? Is it worth it? Is it

something?

So

Sir Richard Branson. Richard Branson is

one of [music] the most fun-loving and

adventurous billionaires in the world.

He's conquered our skies, blasted off

into space. The entrepreneur's

entrepreneur, the marketer's marketer.

In the school of business, they said

focus. By the age of 33, you've got 50

different companies. You kind of break

that law, it seems.

If we'd stayed still [music]

and only focused on one business, we

wouldn't have a business today. We are

still going strong 55 years later.

If you get the little details right,

[music] makes for an exceptional company

over an average company. We were the

first airline to introduce seatback

[music] videos in the world, sleeper

seats for business class passengers.

We've always been ahead of the pack. The

airline's been bullied [music] by

British Airways famously through the

dirty tricks campaign.

The best always succeeds.

As if all of that you'd done before

[music] wasn't enough, you decided to

aim for the stars. We're going to space.

Looking back at this beautiful,

beautiful Earth that we live on while I

was floating,

it [music] was a dream come true. You

know, we're still at the early stage of

space travel and there are still risks.

One pilot has died after a passenger

spaceship crashed. Everything that we'd

built up looked like it was crashing

down. What impact does that have on you

and your mission?

You've got to continue.

Before this episode starts, I have a

small favor to ask from you. Two months

ago, 74% of people that watch this

channel didn't subscribe. We're now down

to 69%.

My goal is 50%. So, if you've ever liked

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favor and hit the subscribe button. It

helps this channel more than you know

and the bigger the channel gets, as

you've seen, the bigger the guests get.

Thank you and enjoy this episode.

[music]

Richard, having spent the last

24 hours reading both your

autobiographies, but also your new HBO

um docu-series,

Eve, your mother,

um

she she felt like a really, really

extraordinarily principled and um strong

character. And in the docu-series, you

actually say that you didn't realize how

much she had influenced you on becoming

the entrepreneur

you are today.

What was it that she was doing? I

pushing you out of the car at four, five

years old and making you walk home, but

what is what was were those principles

that underlined her approach?

So, I mean, she was one of the sort of

uh first entrepreneurs around, really. I

mean, not you know, not a particularly

successful one, but she was

um

making table mats and you know, cutting

out pretty pictures from books and ma-

and and and and um

turning them to you know, turning them

into

uh pictures that she would then take to

Harrods or

Harvey Nichols.

What um interestingly and I didn't

realize this until I

sort saw it in some letters that she'd

written to me um uh

and you know, working from a phone box

in in in London um and um

uh and that was her office just like my

office had been later on, wo- working

from a phone box at school.

Um

but um

uh yeah, but so she she would never

stop. She She She was an idea idea a

minute um

always trying to

um

uh uh you know,

better

better our lives

be- and um

um and also always trying to create

things that she could be proud of.

When was when was she most proud of you?

In terms of what kind of behaviors or

achievements would make her most happy

when you were young?

Um

she

um

Yeah, she was she was um fairly

uh

Yeah, uh yeah, she was she was she was

fairly firm when it came to you know,

the need for

um you know, being courteous um from a

young age um I mean, I remember

uh uh in church one day, I refused to go

and sit next to some somebody that she

wanted me to sit next to who was maybe

visiting our house.

Um and when I got home um

uh she asked my dad to spank me and

uh that that had never happened before

and my

dad um takes me into

into the living into into the next door

room and um

uh and um instructs me to burst into

tears and he slaps his hands together

very hard six times.

[laughter]

I come out rubbing my bum

um but um

um and then of course, she regretted

having done it in the first place, but

of course, it never happens. So,

[laughter]

um they um but um

um but that you know, that that you

know, she

she she you know, she generally

speaking, it was um unreserved love, but

she she wanted us to uh care for other

people properly. Um you know, if we ever

said ill about somebody, we'd be sent to

the mirror and

uh we'd have to stand there for 10

minutes um because it

you know, she felt it reflected so badly

on us that we'd said ill of somebody. Um

and you know, those sort of less-

lessons I think were very, very, very

powerful and very good uh later on in

life when I was

you know, leading people um always

trying to look for the best in in

everybody.

One of the threads throughout your

story, which um

shocked me, surprised me and inspired me

in many ways throughout the docu-series

was this continual desire to

move on to the next thing and and make

things bigger and to capture another

opportunity, which struck me as being at

times like really defining character of

of you.

You know, even when things seem to be

successful by anyone's estimation, you

pushed on again and then you'd push on

again and again. Do you do you have any

idea where that instinct or that

characteristic came from in you? I'm

sure that came from um

uh my mom. Um I am son of Eve, which

which is my mom's name. Um and um

but it's also I think because I was

dyslexic um

and you know, pretty hopeless at school,

um I've forever been

trying to prove something to myself um

and um and and pr- and prove something

you know, when she was alive to her and

my dad.

Um and um

uh I'm inquisitive. I just love I love

learning about new things um

uh and once I've actually absorbed

everything there is to know about

you know, the uh

the thing I've

just created, I'm apt to want to move on

and learn learn something about

something completely different.

Particularly if I feel other people are

not doing it well and and so I just love

diving in there and and um

uh trying to you know, shake up an

industry that is badly run.

Do you think she she and your father,

even your father um

Ted

had high hopes for you?

I think that um my mom

uh definitely thought that I would be um

Yeah, she she she she as- she decided

that I was going to be Prime Minister of

uh Britain one day and um

uh and I think that um yeah, she so she

she definitely had high hopes for me.

Um

Uh my dad just wanted

uh us to be happy. I mean, he was um a

very

love- lovable, content um funny uh was

he uh individual um

wanted to be an archaeologist, but ended

up

uh going into the law after after the

war.

And would have been happy, I think, what

you know, as long as we were happy. Um

he didn't mind you he didn't really want

to push us, but

um but my mom, I think, expected

expected more of us.

You mentioned school um a few moments

ago.

You and me both have a similarity in

that we were hopeless in school.

You went off to boarding school at seven

years old, which in and of itself is a

very pretty extreme experience for a

seven-year-old. You described this as

being a little bit too young in your

view.

Um and you struggled

in part because of your dyslexia.

At the time, did you did you know what

dyslexia was or what it meant?

No, I had no idea what dyslexia was. I

just um

assumed that I must be

a little bit thick. Um I mean, I could

just about add up and subtract, but when

it got to

more complicated stuff uh like algebra

and geometry and the likes, I couldn't

understand the reason for it. I wasn't

interested in it. You you I couldn't

understand why we were having to learn

French when when um nobody seemed to

ever actually speak it when they left

school and um or Latin or um and um

and so

I suppose in my head, I rebelled against

um

being taught things that I couldn't see

the relevance of

um

and um and actually that was a good

thing cuz it it it it ended with me

rebelling from actually staying at

school and leaving school at 15

um

and

uh and creating

some a a a and creating a magazine which

um

uh to try to sort of

uh address some of the issues in the

world.

Your dyslexia, um you've often

highlighted that in many respects it's

been a superpower. It's given you skills

that have led to your success. What what

what is that? What are those skills and

what is the advantage in your view of

this dyslexia and how that's changed how

you function and operate?

Um I think

uh that

um first of all I

I I'd like to say I'm proud of being a

dyslexic thinker.

Um and I'm I'm delighted that

dyslexic thinking is now becoming um

almost part of the vocabulary.

Um

um and I'm pleased to to you know talk

to many dyslexic kids over the years to

try to make them realize that um

you know you know do not do not be

worried about it. Um you know look at

look at the areas that you

you um that you enjoy and cons-

concentrate on those. Um and the areas

that you're not great at um

you uh

you know either that you'll catch up

later on in life um or you know if

you're going to start a business you can

delegate and find other people who can

deal with those. Um

so I think dyslexic dicks dyslexic

people

really excel at the things that things

that they're

that interest them.

Um and I think I I know a lot of a lot

of business people for instance who were

dyslexics who've um who

uh have have

[laughter]

have have um gone gone on to do

incredible things.

Your headmaster um I I read the very

slightly humorous slightly um shocking

story of uh when you were at boarding

school you had a little bit of a

romantic running with his

[laughter]

his his daughter Charlotte. Uh got

expelled uh staged a fake suicide got

unexpelled. Um and then you as you

referenced a second ago you had this

idea for the student magazine. I read

that there was a an ultimatum given to

you by your headmaster where he said

Richard I know you're starting this

magazine. You you either got to leave

school or um and start the magazine or

stay in school and focus on your formal

education. At that point you made the

decision to jump ship.

Yeah I mean I I don't think the

headmaster was very foresighted. I think

uh you know if a kid at school wants to

start a

national [snorts] magazine for young

people what a great education and that

they should have they should have

welcomed us to stay at school and do it

for you know within the from from

school. Uh but the headmaster wasn't

going to um allow me to do that. Um and

um and thank God because

um you know getting out into the real

world uh I'd I'd achieved a lot more

than I would have done um if he if he'd

um if if he if he'd been pleasant and

said you know run the magazine from

school. Um there were a lot there was a

lot going on in the world

um

you know there was the Vietnamese war um

there was the Biafran war um there were

um

uh the Provo's in Holland there was um

uh uh

there was the education system that

needed students to rebel against and um

and the and so it was a it was an

exciting time in the '60s to leave

school go to London um and um try to

start a magazine. I watched your um as I

watched your docu-series yesterday in

that that theater um [clears throat]

that we're all in including yourself one

of the lines really struck with struck

me when when they showed the the small

room that you were building this

magazine in. I know sometimes it was a

post box but sometimes there was a small

room at I think at a later date. A a

line was said which is um

this was my education.

And for young people who are considering

take taking a leap when they have very

little responsibility or think you know

very little to lose throwing themselves

in that kind of throwing themselves in a

situation where they'll fail their way

to an education

struck me as being so important and so

underrated. When you don't have kids or

you don't have a house or a mortgage um

and it seems like that's exactly what

you did. You used like failure and

risk as a way to self-educate.

Yeah I mean

it's difficult for me to recommend it to

everybody listening to this program

because um not everyone's going to be

successful. Um obviously you and I have

been fortunate that we we have had

success doing it that way. Um some

people and I'm not going to get put my

conservative hat on knowing that the

parents may be listening as well.

Um you know some people will benefit

from having an education you know

degree or whatever to fall back on if

they if they if they they find that they

they just can't make a go of it in

business. Um

but anyway for I I think for the two of

us um I think the um

uh yeah being out in the real world I

mean I learned so much um and uh um and

it you know it's held me into such good

stead throughout my life. Um

you know in running a magazine of course

you know you're going out interviewing

people you're learning every time you

interview somebody. Um

I I'd

you know I think um being being a

journalist or being a being an editor

you uh it's not so different from being

an entrepreneur. You're you're out all

the time meeting new people in different

sectors just learning learning learning.

Um and

um and you know through the magazine

uh a lot of people would write with

problems. Um young people would write

with problems so um we ended up setting

up as a student advisory center uh where

we would um

uh give people advice on venereal

disease or gay gay people the gay

population or um or

um

you know contraceptive advice abortion

advice um

psychiatric advice um you know and um

and you know just meeting all these

people with all these different problems

suicidal

suicidal mental problems um

really open open my mind. It was just a

fascinating fascinating education and um

and throughout my life since then I've

spent a lot of my life trying to uh

address some of these issues in a in a

in a first of all in a wider sense in

London and now more more on a global

scale and um but but that was you know

that education of um was so important.

Um you know for instance I remember when

I

was 15 in London it's somebody who was

gay came to me saying they wanted help

and um maybe I I just turned 16 and um

and I thought very naively that when

they said they wanted help that you know

they didn't want to be gay. Um of course

you know [snorts] within a month or two

I realized that you know that people are

born gay and uh and uh and they don't

have a choice in the matter and

um and what they what they desperately

need needed in those days was to meet

other gay people and

uh cuz it cuz you know if they came from

um some remote place in the UK where gay

people weren't accepted um they would

come to London desperately seeking uh

seeking love or seeking friendship um

and um

uh and and so

you know just little things like that um

I learned from um just just being out

there

listening and doing.

Your that was your that magazine was

your um

the first sort of big notable thing that

you'd you'd done in business and

throughout your story and even before I

I'd met you and watched the docu-series

and read the book I was told by other

people Richard Branson's a sup- an

amazing delegator. You mentioned it

earlier on your your your delegation

skills. To understand how to delegate to

someone else you first as you've said

need to understand your strengths and

weaknesses and also their strengths and

weaknesses. So what is what are your

strengths in your own words? What is the

bit of the puzzle that you're good at?

[snorts]

I think I'm good with people. Um I think

um

uh I trust I can trust people. I think I

can surround myself with

um

uh

you know with with with really really

good people. I think I'm

uh able to

um

uh yeah to delegate to de- to delegate

not to second second guess them all the

time. Um

uh yeah to praise not criticize. Um

and um

uh and

uh I I think I'm I think I'm quite good

at uh if I create something making sure

it's the best you know the best in its

area.

Um so that the people who working for

Virgin are really proud of what they're

doing.

Um

uh you know it's really important that

um

you know if if if if somebody's in a pub

and they work for Virgin and somebody

says what you do that they're that

they're proud of the fact that that that

you know they work for Virgin and

they're happy to

say it. Um there are some companies that

that that um

if people work for they won't they won't

really want to be able to say that they

work for such and such a company. Um

yes I think I I I think I think my

people skills

um is is is is the most important um

skill. Um

I think um

uh just giving giving you know giving

things a try.

Uh you know screw it let's do it

obviously is one a phrase I made kick

did years ago and and uh and I've used

that phrase many many a time you know

somebody comes with a

an idea and I like them and um

and um yeah just say um you know let's

let's give it a go. And um

and sometimes we both we we all flat

fall flat on our face sometimes

sometimes it succeeds.

And conversely then, what are the what

are the weaknesses that you've kind of

observed in yourself or the things that

you tend to delegate to other people?

Um I I actually read something which

said which was a quote of yours that

said, "I wanted like I an IQ test at 8

years old. I don't think I filled in

anything. Going forward 30 or so years,

I was running Europe's largest private

group of companies. I didn't know the

difference between gross and net profit.

But it didn't matter."

Yes, I was in a board meeting uh um

when I was about 50 years old and um

uh and the director

um

said um

and I think I said, "Is that good news

or bad news?" And then one of the

directors said, "Come come outside,

Richard, a minute." So, came outside and

he said, "You don't know the difference

between net and gross, do you?" So, I

said, uh

"No." Um uh he said, "I thought not.

Anyway, I brought a sheet of paper." So,

he brings out this sheet of paper and he

uh he he he has some color pens and he

colors it in blue and then he puts a

fishing net in the

um in it and then he puts some little

fish in the fishing net and he says um

"So, the fish that are in the net,

that's your profit at the end of the

year. And the rest of the ocean, that's

your gross turnover."

And um I went I got it. And

I was ever ever since then I've been

name-dropping gross to people who

obviously know full full well what it

is.

And

and um but the but the point of the

story is

uh it really doesn't matter. Um I mean,

it's it's a good idea most likely if

your

your your chief accountant

uh knows.

Um

uh but

you know, for a for somebody who's

running a company

what matters is can you

um you know, can you create the best um

the best company in its sector? You

know, if you're going to

create an airline

[snorts]

is it going to be palpably better than

um the rival airline? If you create a

cruise company, is it going to be

palpably better than the other cruise

companies? If you're going to create a

train company, is it going to be

palpably better than what's gone before?

And if it is

then at the end of the year, it's likely

that more money that will come in than

goes out.

Um and um

uh and then somebody you know, somebody

else can add up add up the figures. Um

uh so, I think, you know, to to be to to

run a to run a business, you know, yes,

it helps to add up. It helps to

subtract.

It helps to multiply. Um I don't even

think you need to worry about division.

Um that that's it. So, um

you know, so if you can if you can do

those three things um

uh you you can run a business. If you

can't do those three things, I wouldn't

worry too much. You find somebody else

who can and just but just go out and

create something that's going to make a

positive difference to other people's

lives.

That student magazine became um kind of

pivoted [clears throat] at the end into

a a mail order music business, which is

a big part of the the docu-series that

we watched yesterday. Um but then it

became so many more things and it's

the interesting thing is kind of how you

swung from one of these business ideas

to the next because you'd seen a product

or service that you thought could be

done better or there was an opportunity

there. When I you know, in the school of

entrepreneurship, if that's like a

metaphorical thing, we always talk about

the importance of focus.

Now, when I look at your story from 15

years old starting that magazine to

starting a mail order business around I

think 20 22 years old when Virgin was

kind of um conceptualized and launched

and then by the age of 33, you've got 50

different companies involving everything

from film making to um conditioner

cleaning and and generating more than

$10 million in sales.

I go

this is not what they told me about the

need for focus in the school of

business. They said focus. You kind of

break that law it seems of focus.

So,

um

uh so, I've I've never really thought of

myself as a business person. Um uh

obviously, you know, on paper I am an

entrepreneur um or a business person. Um

uh I've never really been interested in

the bottom line despite

uh what the uh the the docu-series seems

to portray. Um

uh I've I've really have been interested

in creating things I can be proud of. Um

and uh and a lot of those things come

out of personal frustration and I must

have been frustrated quite a lot when I

was young cuz I and and ended up you

know, trying a lot of things. Um

uh and

um and I just found it great fun um

investing in

you know, people I met. Um you know,

you know, somebody will come along and

uh you know, the the the music business

may have been

um

you know, struggling at one stage in my

career with with with the advent of the

iPod and um so, you know, a couple of

guys come along and say uh

you know, we we you should do mobile

phones. This is you know, this would

replace the music business and

um and they were great great great

people and and um you know, so we

thought, "Screw it. You know, let's do

it. Let's you know, go into the mobile

phone business." And and and so, if we

if we'd stayed still and only done only

focused on one business,

um

uh maybe let's say the record business,

um

uh let's say record stores, um which is

one of our earlier earlier things, um

uh we most likely wouldn't have a

business today because the

you know, megastores and

and record stores no longer exist

because um uh the the I the iPod and

free music really put them out of

business. Um

um so, you know, so by actually going

against the rule rules of you know, what

you learn in business school, um we you

know, we we are still going strong in a

55 years later.

Um

and um

uh and diversification actually saved

us. I mean, like you know, during COVID

um uh

you know, Virgin Atlantic uh

very badly hit uh

companies uh was was saved by Virgin

being able to sell sell Virgin Galactic

shares. So, um so, diversification

um is far more exciting. Um you you

learn a hell of a lot more and um it can

be useful in times of crisis.

It's clear that only a great delegator

would would be able to diversify without

creating um spreading themselves too

thinly per se.

And I should I guess that goes back to

that skill of diversif- um of

delegation.

Your headmaster said something to you

that my best friend Jay Ridgway said to

me when I was 18 years old after I

dropped out of university. My best

friend Jay Ridgway um from Plymouth said

to me

I remember I was stood in this this

curry shop on

on in [clears throat] Rusholme, he said

"You're either going to be a millionaire

or in prison."

Now, when I read that this morning when

I was doing research on um your

headmaster, it stopped me in my and my

breakfast halfway through my sort of

[laughter] chew. I thought, "Gosh."

Now, I know why he said that to me

because he knew there was a certain

level of desperation in me and there was

a certain craftiness which was could

either take me could either be used for

good or evil.

When you was when you did the student

magazine

that that um prophecy appeared to come

true one day when the police raided your

um magazine and arrested you. And I

learned about this in the docu-series

last night.

Your your mother then puts her house on

the line to get you out of jail. And you

choose to expand you choose to expand

your way out of the problem, which for

you meant as it said in the docu-series,

opening 30 record stores that year to be

able to pay your mother back. Have you

always chosen to expand your way out of

problems?

Um

yes, I think I think the answer is yes.

Um I mean, I

I spent [clears throat] one night in

prison. I

um in those days

you had to pay tax on records if you

shipped them to Europe.

Sadly, with Brexit, you're going to have

people going to have to do that again.

But um uh and um

uh and I stumbled into the fact that if

you

drove across the channel and drove back

again, you had a piece of paper which

said you'd exported the records and

therefore you didn't have to pay the

tax. And um and um uh but anyway, so we

we we we we we we got a

a bad rap on the knuckles. I spent I

spent a night in prison and swore never

ever ever uh um to spend a second night

in prison in my life. Um and uh and yes,

we expanded fast in order to pay pay off

the fine. Um

uh We just needed the turnover. Um and

it was it was actually um

uh

actually a really

um

uh

a wonderful booster to to all the team

at Virgin to to um uh and um

uh and fortunately, you know, we managed

within 3 years to pay to pay it off.

Um but um

I mean, I it it

sometimes we're expanding

uh

expanding just for the

sheer pleasure of learning about

something new. And um

uh and then maybe occasionally on like

like on that occasion, we're expanding

to get ourselves out of problem out of

trouble.

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The most, from my perspective, one of

the most, um,

terrifying decisions you ever made was

to go into the airline industry. Warren

Buffett's fairly famous for saying that

he has once considered employing someone

to sit in his office, and every time he

feels like investing in an airline to

talk him out of it, because it's such a

absurd, terrifying business to get into.

You were running a very successful

record label and record store, um,

business by then. You had many, many

companies, many investments, and you

decided to take this huge bet to start

an airline.

Now, there's a lot said about why.

Could you tell me in your own words why?

Um, it it it really was out of

frustration of, um,

flying on other people's airlines,

having having bad experiences,

um, and feeling that, um,

we could uh, we could do it better. We

could make it it could be more fun. I

mean, in in

in those days, uh, you know, if you flew

on, say, British Airways, it was a

monopoly. Um,

uh, they

you know, you were you you maybe got a

lump of chicken dumped in your lap. Um,

there was no entertainment. Um,

the cabin crew certainly didn't enjoy

working for the company, and um, and you

really felt like you were just being

herded from A to B in in a in a cattle

truck. Um, and, um,

uh, and so, uh,

I flew I was flying all over the world,

um, to, um,

uh, to uh, to visit our record

companies, cuz we had record companies

in most countries around the world, and

and just felt, you know, like like we we

could we could do it better. Um,

uh, somebody came along to us with the

idea of a business airline, um, only I

didn't think that would be very exciting

to run. Um, and, um,

uh, but I thought a a really really good

quality airline for everybody, including

business people, um, you know, would be

a

something special to run. And, um,

uh, and so ended up ringing up Boeing

and um, and having a wonderful

discussion with a wonderful guy called

R.J. Wilson, and, um, ending up um,

being able to, uh,

lease a second-hand 747 from him.

Um,

and, um, and because, you know, uh,

I do like to, you know, to protect the

downside, which is obviously important

in business, um, I

did a deal with him whereby I could hand

the plane back at the end of 12 months

if,

you know, if my instinct was not right.

Um, and, um,

but fortunately, at the end of 12

months, people loved flying on Virgin

Atlantic, and we ended up, you know,

getting a second and a third plane from

Boeing, and um, and that was, yeah, 38

years ago. And um, and

you know, Virgin Atlantic has, um,

uh, you know, it's it's like a

uh, it's roughly the same age as my

daughter. Um,

uh, you know, it's um, she's been the

airline's been bullied, um, by British

Airways, I mean, famously through the

dirty tricks campaign. Um,

uh, it was a really tough time. Um, we

took BA to court, and we won the biggest

libel damages in history.

Um,

uh, um, she's had she's had to go

through the, like, pink crashes. Like

the, um,

uh, nine nine nine eleven disaster, um,

the 2008 disaster.

Um,

there's the COVID disaster.

Um, and uh, and I'm

sure that we've it you know, that that

it's cost us more money than, um, than

we've ever made from it. Um,

uh, but it's been the flagship, uh, you

know, for Virgin. Um,

it's enabled us to launch other

companies in different countries around

the world on the back of the the strong

brand, and the strong reputation it's

had. Um, and,

uh, she's she's a

a daughter that I will zealously

protect, and and, um,

uh, as long as I can.

When you look back at why that business

survived, considering the fierce

competition, considering what British

Airways did and were ultimately found

guilty of in court with their dirty

tricks campaigns. The bit that really

stuck out to me yesterday was hearing

that they had a staff member hacking to

your customer database.

Um, to to kind of see spy on what you

were doing.

That went to court. You won the battle.

Um, and that acted as a a real boost, I

think, for Virgin, because it kind of

staged you as this sort of David versus

Goliath,

um, situation where you were the

underdog.

But as you look back on that journey,

um, many people have fallen in that

industry. It's a graveyard, as you say

in the documentary.

Why did Virgin win? What was it? Was it

brand? Was it customer experience? Was

it just grit?

I think I think that,

um,

uh,

I think a lot comes back to staff. I

mean, um, that that we we we've always

had a great, um, team of people working

at Virgin. They're they're really proud

of the company. Um,

uh, um, they, um,

uh, we've done things, you know, we've

always been ahead of ahead of the pack

in in, um, new innovations. So, um,

you know, seatback videos, for instance,

we were the first airline to introduce

seatback videos in the world. Um,

uh, they, um, uh, you know, sleeper

seats for business class passengers. Um,

uh, um, you know, stand-up bars and, um,

and and lounges and so on. Um,

you know, collect collecting money at

the door, you know, um, for charity.

That Virgin was the first to do that,

and now pretty well every airline and

most airports are doing it as well, this

change. Um,

so, I think, um,

uh, you know, every every little detail,

I think, we we um, the team have got

right at at Virgin. Um, and, um,

uh, and if you get the little details

right, uh, you know, um, then

collectively, um,

uh, you it makes for an exceptional

company over an average company, and

um, you know, if I'm on a Virgin plane,

I'll I'll or in any Virgin company, I'll

have my notebook, I'll take notes, I'll

listen to it listen to the staff,

listen to the customers,

um, you know,

um, and then act when I get to the far

end. And, um,

uh, and and then be in touch back in

touch with the people who, you know,

gave me the ideas to thank them and tell

them what we've done. And and and I

think a good a good leader has to be a

good listener. Um, and if you're if

you're, um,

uh, uh, and that's I think one of the

most important attributes of a good

leader.

I grabbed my phone halfway through

watching the docu-series yesterday when

you mentioned the seatback videos,

because in the same breath you mentioned

how

every accountant would tell you, um,

not to do many of the things that you've

chosen to do, but also the banks

wouldn't even lend you the money to to

do the seatback videos. They'd give you

the money to like two billion dollars to

do the planes, but they wouldn't give

you the 10 million to do the seatback

videos. You've mentioned to instinct as

well a few times.

As a CEO over the years, I've had this

battle between like instinct and the

CFO.

You seem to tend to, I think the quote

you said was,

um, you tend not to consult finance

people and accounts people when you when

you have these ideas.

How have you found that battle between

the two? Between your instinct and your

vision and the money people going,

"This won't work. This doesn't make

sense."

I suspect that you're on you're the

entrepreneur, and and they're the CFO,

because

you're the entrepreneur and they're the

CFO. So, I think you just got to believe

in your your your your instinct, and

um, and, um,

uh, and and go with it. And if you

create something, you know, I mean we're

just opening a new hotel in,

uh, New York. Um,

you know, if it's the best hotel in New

York, even if it's gone over budget in

in the building of it, which it which it

will have done, um,

uh, the the best always succeeds. Um,

uh, you know, we we we famously during

COVID, uh, launched a new cruise line,

Virgin Voyages. Um,

uh,

you know, it is

you know, it's so much better than any

other cruise line out there.

Um, you know, we've had 2 years where

we've had to moth mothball the ships.

Um, but, you know, we've stuck with it

because we know that the the quality is

such that, um, people will seek it out.

And and, uh, and the feedback's been,

you know, spectacular. I mean, it's

Virgin at Virgin at its absolute best.

Um, I'm actually heading there this

afternoon. Um,

you know, it's fascinating. Each ship

has

78 different nationalities working on

it. Um, you know, 1,200 people.

Um, and they're just the best. And, um,

and it's adults only, and it's a lot of

fun. And, um,

uh, but, you you know, there were

moments during COVID that we did think,

you know, we we definitely chose the

wrong business to launch.

Virgin at its absolute best.

What does that mean? What is Virgin at

its best?

Virgin at its best is when you launch a

new company, and you know that because

you know, people have experienced

previous Virgin companies,

um, that they will give it a try. You

don't really have to even advertise. Um,

they they they know that when they went

on a Virgin train, uh, when we ran the

network, that it was, you know, really

good quality. When they went on a Virgin

plane, it was good quality. When they

went into Virgin health club, it was

good quality. Um, and so on. Um, and,

um,

so, you know, that that gives us a big

advantage with with a brand that that

uh, people have tried, they've loved,

um, and so when we launch something new

like a cruise line, they they will give

it a go. And and we make sure that we

don't let them down. Um, and and and

then,

you know, having them tried the cruise

line, if we decide to do a new venture,

um,

you know, we can we can we can it's that

much easier for us to launch it off off

the back of the cruise line.

You you you are so synonymous with the

the Virgin. I don't think I I know a

person who is as synonymous with their

brand as an individual. So, when you

think of Virgin, you think of Richard

Branson. When you think of Richard

Branson, you think Virgin.

Um, and in 1985, you start doing some

pretty extreme

adventures around the world, which

become kind of pay [clears throat] into

the brand, and give give the brand extra

meaning. Things like crossing

crossing the Atlantic by boat, which

sunk. Uh, it seems like a lot of the uh

the trips you took either collapsed,

like fell out the sky into the into the

the sea, or the boat sunk. Um, you set

so many records through that period. Um,

so so, you know, I was reading about you

going

250 mph in a hot air balloon

across the the Pacific from Japan to the

Arctic in Canada, again breaking

existing records at the time. This

became a real hallmark of like the the

Richard Branson and Virgin brand, these

extreme adventures. Was that

intentional? When you did that first

one, did you was was it because of a

marketing thing, or was it because of

the fun of doing it for yourself?

It started out,

uh,

as

a a mixture of the two, but more, uh, we

had one plane, um, and somebody said,

you know, why why don't we try to bring

the Blue Ribbon back to Britain for the

fastest boat across the Atlantic. Um,

and, you know, we can we can we can

build this boat. Um,

and, um,

uh, but it ended up being,

um, much more than just a marketing

adventure. It became it became a real

adventure. I mean, it was, you know,

tremendously exciting. And, um, I was in

in my

very early 30s, and and, um,

uh, and, you know, it was tough, but it

was it was great fun. Um, there were,

you know, lots of, um,

moments of drama, uh, which there always

are when you're trying something that's

never really been tried before. Um,

including, as you pointed out, we sank

[laughter] we sank before we got the

whole way across. Um, uh, but, um,

uh, but anyway, it makes for a good

documentary series.

Um, and it makes for a good book. And

and and, um, and, you know, and it did

put Virgin on the map. It made Virgin a

much more

sexy brand, um, a more adventurous brand

than say

British Airways, our rival. Um,

uh, and and and and and other brands.

Um,

uh, I mean, Virgin Atlantic cheekily

took a full page ad when we

when we when we sank in the Atlantic,

the the only thing that was sticking out

of the Atlantic of the boat was, um, the

brand Virgin. And, um, and the ad just

had the picture of the boat sticking out

of the water. And, and the ad said,

"Next time, Richard, take the plane."

[laughter]

And,

and of of course there would have the

were people who said, "You know, what if

you sink? What if you end up in the in

the Atlantic? You

you don't know who's going to want to

fly an an airline where

um, but of course it's quite the

reverse. It's you know, people,

um, you know,

uh, it it helped put it helped put a

tiny little airline on the map. Um,

uh,

more effectively than anything else we

could do, and much more cheaply. You

mentioned that ad from

from your competitor there.

In the moment, competition is the arch

enemy, you know, causing you a ton of

nuisance. But as you look back on the

competition you've had throughout the

different industries you've been in,

has the competition actually made you

stronger and better

at what you've done?

Yes, and I think the reverse is also

true. Um, that that,

uh,

you know, the these

big public companies or big, um,

government-run companies like British

Airways have been made the better,

um, by having,

um,

Virgin Atlantic innovating, and, you

know, that them having to, you know,

catch us up in over the years. And I

think British Airways is a better

company today than it was, um, you know,

38 years ago when we started. So,

competition's good for all of us, um,

big big and small. And, um, and the only

role that governments need to play is

intervening when there's unfair

competition. Um, and that's one of the

the most important roles a government

can play,

um, is, um,

uh, uh, is making sure that they set

laws that encourage competition, and

don't stifle competition. Um, and, um,

uh, and, you know, we've had, uh, yeah,

anyway, there there've been books

written about, um, uh, about companies

that have tried to stifle Virgin in the

past. But, um, somehow we somehow we

came through.

There's this term now called personal

branding, which has become very popular,

predominantly because of social media

and everybody having a channel, and they

can build followers, and they can try

and tell the world who their company is

using social media. But, you were kind

of the first CEO personal brand to many

people, because, um, everything you did

added value to the brand. And it wasn't

just what Virgin said. I think when I

look at your story, it teaches me that

the brand is what

what the people do, and what the founder

does becomes the brand more so than

ever. Um,

and I think that's often what we lose

sight of. And some of the best brand

brands in the world, like the Red Bulls

of the world, have figured out that the

things you do say much more about the

brand than what you say. Yeah. And

you're like the perfect example of that.

In the early '90s, you

got in a bit of a a struggle because of

the the broader economy, and you ended

up selling your record business.

From all accounts, and from speaking to

some of your current team,

they said that this was a very difficult

moment for you. That it was crushing, I

think the quote that I that I was told.

Um,

is that accurate? And why was it why was

it crushing?

Oh, look, I think,

uh,

um,

you if you think of your if you think of

the, um,

uh, the things that you create like

children, which, um,

which I I do. And and and I think of it

like that, because it is just a bunch of

people. Um,

um, I mean, you know, you your business

is yourself and a and a group

a group of people.

Um, if you sell it, you it's like

selling selling, you know, if you sell a

company, it's like selling a group of

children. And and that's, um,

uh, that's [clears throat] tough all

round. Um, I needed to, uh,

I needed a war chest, um, to combat

British Airways and and and and the

dirty tricks that they were

um,

uh, they'd they'd launched at Virgin.

And, um, and, you know, so, you know,

the the war chest,

um, that I that I thought

I could best tap into was Virgin

Records.

The good thing was that, you know, the

the staff of Virgin Records,

you know, still had a had a job, but,

um, working for another company. And the

staff at Virgin Atlantic were safe,

because we had the the financial clout

to,

um, to deal to deal with our competitor.

Um,

so, there are there you know, there are

obviously times in life where you have

to make tough decisions like that. And,

um,

uh, and,

uh, and,

yeah, but it and move and move on. Do

you have any regrets about about how

that happened? About that phase?

Um, I have I I always think that if if

anybody asked me if I ever have any

regrets about anything, it would be I'd

be a very sad person to answer

answer positively because, you know,

I've I've had the most extraordinary

life. Um,

it's been full of, you know, interesting

twists and turns. Um,

uh, and I honestly really you know,

can't think of anything I regret in in

the past. Um,

they um,

and I think I would I I really do think

I'd be a sad person if I if I had

regrets. I mean, after it's just been

um, rich with rich with um,

uh, you know, adventure and uh, and um,

and people and and um, and and I I'm not

somebody who looks back and by and

large, I mean, obviously an interview

like this I will, but um,

and I suppose I've reached an age where

you know, it's important to write books

and it's important to do documentaries

and you know,

because it's important not to waste your

life and and and and it's important to

share what you've learned.

How did you feel yesterday watching the

um,

docu-series on your life?

I I was just behind you, so I'd watch

I'd look at the screen and then I'd look

at your reaction and I'd see you

laughing sometimes and

Um,

I was emotionally drained, to be honest.

Um,

I remember I after the after-party,

um, I just could not really get my my

words out for the first half an hour.

Um,

uh, you know, I found it quite you know,

fairly exhausting. Um,

I mean, they've it's incredible

uh, a really good documentary maker and

and Chris Smith is one of the best in

the world. I mean,

you know, prides himself on on his

independence, which I respect completely

and and so we you know, we didn't have

input into it.

Um,

you know, obviously therefore not

everything one's going to agree with and

and not everything is you know, in in my

brain would be exactly as as it was, but

90 you know, 95% 96% was was was was as

I see it and but but but just what is is

incredible was the archive footage they

managed to find.

Um,

you know, considering we'd had my main

house burnt down, um, my my main house

blown down in a hurricane,

um, twice. Um, uh, the fact that

anything survived to be able to make

such a you know, such a really full

quite you know, really quite exciting, I

think,

um, docu- documentary series was um,

you know, I have to take my hat off to

them.

And then in the uh,

as I watched the the last episode of the

docu-series last night, I saw you once

again in typical Richard Branson style

set yourself a new frontier, which was

space.

As if you, you know, as if all of that

[snorts] you'd done before wasn't

enough, you you decided to aim for the

stars.

Why?

Um,

So, I remember um,

many many many years ago, um, when

President Gorbachev was um,

uh, leader of Russia and he was trying

to bring perestroika um, perestroika

uh, to um,

uh, the West and trying to br- um, pu-

pu- put out peace signs. Um, he invited

me to come to Russia to be the first

person to go up in a Russian um,

spaceship. Um, but it would have meant

uh, [snorts] a big check, um, you know,

60 million. It would have meant um, a

year um, learning Russian and being in

Russia.

And I just didn't have the time that

and already the the spare money to do

something like that. But it it did get

me thinking.

Um, you know, that's an inordinate

amount of money to charge for somebody

to go to space. You know,

for that kind of money we why why

couldn't I just build start building a

spaceship? Um, and um,

and so we registered Virgin Galactic

Airways and um,

and I was set up we went around the

world trying to see if we could find

somebody to build us a spaceship and um,

and then just found this genius Burt

Rutan.

You know, to me,

um,

you know, I've I've I've

always dreamt of going to space one day.

Um, I think

uh, 50% of the people listening to this

program will will have will have dreamt

or will dream of going to space. 50%

will think we you know, why why on earth

would you want to do that? Um, but um,

you know, it's it was the most

extraordinary day of my life. Um,

my my trip to space. Um,

uh, and uh, and you know, looking back

at this beautiful beautiful earth that

we live on, it was um,

from space whilst whilst floating, uh,

um, at the you know, at the whilst

floating with a lovely group of people,

um,

uh, just an extraordinary um, experience

and um,

uh, and to be honest to you, yeah, to

pinch a pinch you pinch oneself moment

to be doing it in a spaceship that we

that we built and um,

um, and um,

uh, and uh, yeah, it's so it it was a

dream come true.

In that documentary, we're also reminded

of the the cost of all of these

endeavors at a moment when there's a

shot of you taking a phone call at your

house learning that in the lead up to

Virgin Galactic's going to space for the

first time,

an astronaut had died in one of the

tests. It's a very emotional scene, but

it it is a reminder of of

um, the cost of these great endeavors to

humanity.

That day when you receive that phone

call and then you you rushed yourself to

the to the to the site,

what's on your mind?

So, it's happened to me twice in my

life. Um, uh,

you know, I was once in a cinema in um,

uh, in Europe uh, with my kids and I

my phone just kept

uh, kept vibrating and and and I'd

ignored it and I ignored it and then on

the sort of third or fourth time I I

decided to walk out of the cinema and

check it.

Um, and one of our trains had come off

um, the track and um,

uh, and

you know, straight away I knew that you

know, um, I just had to get to the scene

of the accident. Um, and you know, there

were no flights that night, so we had to

had to drive through the through the

night. Um, and then yeah, and um,

uh, and then

anyway, we got got there

um, at at early early in the morning the

next day.

One

uh, lady had died and you know, and I

um, went went to the morgue to meet the

relatives and

um, you know, we we had our hug hug and

um,

uh, and

um, I mean, fortunately it turned out it

wasn't actually Virgin's fault, but um,

you know, but we were still obviously

responsible for um, the fact that it was

on a Virgin train. Um, and um,

and

uh,

and then you've got to as as owner um,

you know,

confront talk to the press and and um,

and but it it it I think the fact that

you the fact that you make an effort and

get get there quickly is very important

and and the same when when when when we

uh, lost a test spaceship,

um,

uh, I knew straight away based on my

previous experience with the train that

I I needed to be there as fast as

possible. Is there a conversation about

discontinuing Virgin Galactic at that

moment after losing that life?

Yeah, there was. I mean, you know, we I

sat down with George Whiteside and just

said, you know,

is it you know, asked ourselves

questions, is it worth it? Is it worth

um,

you know, is it worth continuing? What

what what what would happen if we had a

second accident? Um,

uh, you know, we would never never never

be forgiven. I mean, it would you know,

it would um, our reputations would be

destroyed. Um,

um,

uh,

um, but then we then we spoke with all

the all the engineers and um,

we spoke with many of the people who

signed up to go to space and and we

spoke with the family and um, of um,

uh,

of the pilot who who'd lost and with one

with one voice they said, you know, you

just got to you've got to continue.

Uh, and um,

uh, and we did and and uh, we're still

you know, we're still

um, you know, we're still at the early

stage of space travel. There still

risks. I mean, it's

we think that um, you know, we don't um,

you know, we think that we're through

all the big risks. Um, uh, you know,

we've we've got a we can automatically

switch off a um,

uh, an engine if

you know, if if anything's wrong goes

wrong with the rocket motor. Just And

and and we've got we've got astronauts

actually flying flying our craft. Um,

but it is the it is it is the early

stages and um, but

um, but I think every everybody involved

are doing it with their eyes open.

One of the most um, beautiful

heart-wrenching scenes from the

docu-series is in 2021

when you

are months away from your first space

flight on your on your own

spaceship, spacecraft, spaceplane,

whatever the whatever the terminology

is.

Um

[clears throat]

you've

named it after your mother.

You've named the mothership after Eve.

And then tragically um she passes away

from COVID

before she has the chance to embark on

that space journey with you which she

was planning to do.

That phase of your life when you lose

your mother, when you lose Eve,

what impact does that have on you and

your mission?

Um it it

I mean first of all she'd lived a a uh

long life and an extraordinary life and

and so it was

um

uh

uh um I mean

yeah I was very very fortunate and our

family were very fortunate to have had

her around so long. Um and um

uh and the absolute last thing that she

would have wanted was for for um

for the mission or any missions to be

held up um as a result of her death. I

mean you know she she will

uh you know if there's this star up

there um she'll be on it and and and I'm

sure that she was there and

uh there in spirit when um when when

when I went to space and she definitely

would have been smiling smiling down at

down down at us with with my dad Ted um

and um

uh so uh

and so I think when when when when we

when we lose loved ones we it's

you know we you you live on you live on

through your parents and

you know and um your children live on

through you and and your grandchildren

live on through your your children and

uh and you know that's the sort of

wonder the wonders of life.

And when you came down from that space

flight um which is detailed in your your

second memoir in the the sort of updated

version which has just been updated

you wrote a letter to your mom after

coming down from space. You said, "Dear

mom, you always told me to reach for the

stars. Well, I took my own winding road,

but I always knew when to follow your

lead. You always pushed us to our

limits. You were always a dreamer. You

urged me to strive for every opportunity

I saw. You told me to chase my wildest

fantasies, to live life to the full, how

you lived, how you loved, and how you

are missed."

Yeah, I mean she

you know I think uh

uh yeah hopefully um yeah when when

people read the book they'll think about

their own their own moms and dads and

and um and you know how how how lucky

lucky we are to have

moms and dads who sacrificed so much for

us and um and as as we as we as we grow

up and then

obviously later on in life

um one can you can one can give

you know give give back and in um

looking after them as they get a little

bit older.

The docu-series was a bit of a punch in

the face from the start because that

because of that opening scene about your

family where

you're sat there ahead of your journey

to space trying to say some words to

Holly, Sam, and Joan, your wonderful

wife and your kids

just in case you never make it back from

space. This is something that you've

done time and time again before you

embarked on these journeys.

Um

really really difficult to watch.

Really difficult to watch. Um

and took me by by surprise because it

was so early on in the film.

Why why was why is it so hard to to get

those words out? Otherwise you seem like

such a composed individual, but when it

came to those words

it seemed like you you know multiple

takes. You got up, you walked away, you

came back, got up, walked away, and came

back.

So um

So first of all I I do

uh

uh I cry in happy films, I cry in sad

films. My kids bring a box of tissues

when we when we go to the cinema or used

to.

Um and

uh so that

that that I'm I'm I so I am

um uh you know even even now just

talking to you I can feel tears in my

eyes. So um so um

uh so it is it's not surprising for me

to suddenly

uh not not be able to get my get through

my sentence sometimes. Um

but obviously look if you if you

uh if you're

reading um if you're if you're if you're

speaking about as if you've as if you've

died to um you know to to your kids and

your grandkids

um a lot of emotions go for your head at

the time of saying if speaking. I

suspect even the emotions of my god

should I be should you know is is is it

worth it? And a lot a lot of the this

documentary series is

asking the question is it selfish? Is it

worth it? Is it

uh is it is it is it is it something?

Um uh is it is it something that um one

should be doing?

Um

I remember um

I was in I was just taking off on um

to go across the Pacific in a hot air

balloon and

walking into this truck and um

Jon Thirkell from ITN was just finishing

editing my obituary

um in case I didn't come back.

And she said, "You know Richard do do

you want to sit and

watch the obituary?" Um and I said,

"Well, why why not?" And um

and you know I started watch the

obituary and again had a couple of tears

in my eyes at the end of it, but um but

um you know but I do think that in life

what you know one advantage of doing

these adventures is actually do

confront the ultimate inevitability of

of um

you know that you're not going to be

here forever and so you do think about

uh you know have I left everything in

order? Um you know what am I going to

say say to my children? What am I going

to say to my grandchildren? A lot of

people don't have that opportunity cuz

they they they die suddenly. So

um you know it's so I have written quite

a few letters over the years

uh thinking that I just may not come

back from this adventure or that

adventure.

The documentary also shone a light on

Joan

who has clearly been

this huge rock in your life over the

years. She's a strong, tenacious, um

honest

very uh very to the point

wonderful woman.

What does she mean to you? And what has

she meant to you over the last

40-50 years? Oof. Um

well, I was lucky enough to meet her 45

years ago in a recording studio

um

uh called the Manor. Uh

walked into the kitchen and just looked

across the room and she was the most uh

gorgeous creature I'd ever seen in my

life and it was instantaneous love from

me to her, but and and and it it was

took me a while the other way around.

But she's just a a fantastic

down-to-earth Glaswegian

um doesn't suffer fools gladly um

complete opposite to me. Um

you know doesn't play tennis, doesn't uh

run, doesn't uh ski, doesn't climb

mountains.

Um you know doesn't go adventuring. But

you know she's

the most fantastic [clears throat]

mother for Holly and Sam and the

grandkids. Um and um

uh and she knows what matters in life.

You know um she you know I mean the the

uh in in the end I suppose what matters

is

you know the love you can give to your

children. Um

uh the food on the table. Um

uh

um yeah, but all

above everything is unreserved love um

to to all everybody around her and and a

and and um

uh and everything else is

um

uh is sort of icing on the cake.

You're a man synonymous with living a

life worth living.

One of the quotes from the film was

about you know not living a life

um that is full of risk is not living at

all, words to that effect. If I was Sam

or Holly, your kids and I asked you I

said, "Dad, what's some

what is a a life worth living?"

What what would you say to me?

I think just to

to first of all fulfill their own

fulfill their own dreams. I mean I mean

not not to have their father or

mother push them into things they don't

want to do. So

um you know I was lucky with my my my

daughter wanted to be a doctor and she

you know she she did the medic she

became a doctor. Um she now helps us

with our foundation. Um my son

um wants to make films and and um

uh and he's a musician basically which

is his main love and he and he he does a

little bit of both of those things.

Um they're both fantastic parents and

they find the time uh for the grandkids.

Um

so I think just to um

you know to to follow to follow whatever

dream it is that you have as best you

can.

Um

and um

uh and

and you know we've been lucky that our

kids have our kids have um

I think found their found their path in

life.

We have a closing tradition on this

podcast where the last last guest asks a

question for the next guest not knowing

who they are asking it for.

Um the question that has been left for

you is

where were you

when you when you felt most vulnerable

and why?

I think I felt most vulnerable

um

relatively recently um during the

uh

about 6 weeks into COVID um when

uh everything everything that we'd built

up uh looked like it was crashing down

um

uh and uh and interestingly when

uh the sort of British press rather than

being supportive it really really turned

on us um

uh and

uh and but fortunately you know my my

kids and grandkids everybody arrived um

um at around about that same time and uh

and the team just got down and

worked really hard day and night to make

sure we kept as many jobs um safe as as

possible and um

uh and

uh and I think pretty well every version

uh company got through it and pretty

well every every employee's jobs got

protected um but but that was a that was

maybe the toughest time in um toughest

time in my life for you know sud-

suddenly it just looked like one for

your your reputation and everything else

was going out of the window it was um

but COVID was tough for so many people

and um