All marital problems stem from two

things.

And that's What about sex? How often is

sex the issue in divorce? Oh my god.

James Sexton, the world's number one

divorce lawyer, specializing in

billionaires, athletes, and celebrities

for over two decades.

Giving him a unique insight into how

relationships fail and succeed. There's

about a 56% chance that your marriage

will end in divorce. Yet, 86% of people

who remarry within 5 years.

But most people have no idea what they

are getting themselves into. And a great

example of that would be Prenups. Who

gets what when they break up?

Correct. And the most shocking prenup

I've ever seen said that for every 10 lb

the wife gained, she would lose $10,000

a month in alimony. 10 lb of weight. And

that was enforceable. Do good money

issues lead to divorce? Oh, it's

controversial. What's the quickest

someone's gone from marriage to divorce?

To 48 hours. Who cheats more, men or

women? You'll be shocked to hear it's

Have you ever seen violence during a

divorce? They ran her over four times

and stabbed her. Jesus Christ. So here's

the question then. Should we get

married?

And then do you think love is a terrible

idea? I think it's insane to love

anything. Because someday

that'll be gone. And this thing's going

to break my heart. No matter what I

lose.

But that's not a reason not to love. And

I I think there's something really

important there.

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Thank you and enjoy this episode.

James, I've never spoken to somebody

that does what you do.

What do you do?

I'm a divorce lawyer. I'm a divorce

lawyer who

represents people in contested divorce

and custody proceedings in court. So,

it's the fact that you've never spoken

to someone who does what I do is a good

thing. It It It means that either you've

not married or it means that you've

successfully married to the point where

you would never end up in my office. By

the time someone sets foot in my office,

something's gone terribly wrong in their

life because no one ever meant to meet

me. No one ever meant to be in my office

ever.

What is the probability

that someday I do meet somebody like you

and not in this context?

Well, if you marry,

there's about a 56% chance that your

marriage will end in divorce.

Now, that doesn't take into

consideration how many people may

consult with a divorce lawyer because

they're having difficulty in their

marriage, but they choose subsequent to

meeting me not to divorce for some

particular reason, whether that's they

don't want to part with half of their

funds or they've just decided it's

easier to stay miserable and with a

person, or they're staying together for

the kids, but they wanted to know what

their rights were. So, if you marry, the

the chances of meeting someone like me

are are more likely than not if we look

at it that way cuz it's more than 50%.

So, it's a It's a high number, you know.

But if we define failure as all of the

other things you've described that where

we kind of stay together but we're

miserable or we stay together for some

other reason,

how what percentage of marriages

on that basis do you think actually

fail?

I mean, if we consider the part If we

consider failure staying together

miserable for the children or staying

together for financial economic reasons,

and then we add that to the 56% that end

in divorce, then I mean, it would be

very hard to track that, but I I think

it's generous to think it's another 20%

probably. But but I mean think about

what that adds up to. That means that

you've got you've got something that

fails 70, 75%

of the time. That's a that's a negligent

activity. That's you know, that's that

is more likely than not to cause

significant harm in your life. So I I I

don't say that to sound like the Grim

Reaper when it comes to marriage. I I

actually really think marriage is a

lovely thing and I get misty-eyed at

weddings like anybody. Um and not just

for you know, future business purposes.

Um I I

I I think I think the statistic that's

even more interesting to me than how

many marriages end in divorce or how

many people stay together miserable

is that 86% of people who divorce

remarry within 5 years.

So think about that. Now you've you've

done this thing.

It's

failed.

You've gone through this difficult

process of having to undo it.

And now within 5 years, 86% of people

remarry. I mean so that that tells you

how important this is to us as humans.

How drawn to this idea, this technology

of marriage we are. And and that to me

is fascinating because

I I've often said like I'm not sure what

marriage

was designed What problem is marriage

designed to solve?

See, the fact that it takes this long to

think. If I said to you, what what

purpose does this technology, this mug,

what does it serve? Well, that's easy,

right? It's hard to drink out of your

hands and someone would have to keep

coming up and pouring things in our

hands. Okay, well, that's pretty

straightforward. What what problem does

this solve? Well, that's easy, right? We

we don't want to get you know, the ring

stains around and get yelled at by our

significant other for not using a

coaster. So these are easy things. But

marriage, something so ubiquitous that

it's assumed, it's assumed if you're

dating someone for a few years and you

say

guess what, we're getting married.

Everyone goes, of course, phenomenal,

congratulations, that's great, of course

you're going to do that. You know,

you're making an honest woman of her, of

course.

Whereas if you say, you know, we we've

been together for 3 4 years, we decided

we're not going to get married, people

go,

what's wrong with this guy? He's got

intimacy issues, he's not getting

married, you know, what's the problem

that you don't want to get married?

Whereas

rationally, the response should be, you

know, oh yeah, we're getting married.

What, are you kidding me? Why are you

doing that? It's like someone saying I'm

going to go skydiving, it's like, wait,

are you crazy? That's a dangerous thing

to do, you know, and it's not even, I

mean, listen, skydiving, it's not like

it's 75% 76% of people die who go

skydiving. So, the truth is, like it it

it makes very little sense to me

that marriage is assumed to be a thing

you will do when in fact we as a species

are so unbelievably bad at it.

That's sort of 86% that then get

remarried after divorce.

Are they then have they learned from

their mistakes? Are they better at

marriage?

it's different.

This time it's different. It's this time

I'm really in love. That other time when

I thought I was in love, that wasn't it.

This time it's different. It really it's

a it's it's a blind spot, you know, and

again, where does it come from? You'd

have to ask people smarter than me. You

know, it could be neuroscience, it could

be the realm of a real

deep social psychology, it could just be

a cognitive bias, I have no idea. It

could be a delusion brought on by

inadequate lighting.

You know, but but the whatever it is, we

go, oh yeah, but this one's different.

This one I I did a pre-nup last week for

a guy

who went through the one of the ugliest

divorces I've ever seen and that's not

hyperbole. Like I've been doing this for

25 years, just to say so for me to say

the ugliest divorce I've ever seen is

that's amazing. That's like that's a

really big that's like a Michelin chef

saying this was the best meal I've ever

had. So this guy had a horrific divorce

that lasted four or five years. He's

remarrying a woman 30 years younger than

him who he met

4 months ago.

And when I said to him as artfully and

tactfully as I could, you know,

you you've only known this person for a

short time and you know, have you

thought about maybe just you know, being

a little cautious in terms of what

you've seen how difficult a divorce can

be. You know, do you think maybe it

might be he did I was oh no, this is not

I've never felt anything like this. I've

never been this in love. I've never been

so connected with someone we just get

each other.

And you know, that that

it would be very indelicate and rude for

me to say like snap out of it man. You

got to get your like really

you know, bring your logical brain to

this this equation. Do not bring the

part of you that's just filled with

romance and has Christmas in your eyes.

Like really you got to look at this

honestly.

Do you see a lot of gold diggers?

Do you see a lot of gold digger sort of

um patterns? I you see someone that's

incredibly wealthy. You see someone

that's I don't know 40 years younger

than them.

Yeah. Yeah, I see a lot of that. I mean

I

you know, I'm I'm hesitant to say gold

diggers because I think that has a a

pejorative like built into it that that

that somehow I think that that people

bring different things to the table in

relationships. I I I think love is an

economy.

And I don't I'm not saying that in a way

that that devalues love. I think that

love is a verb. I think that love is an

emotion. And I think that love is an

economy. You know, there there is a a

giving and taking of value. And and that

can be incredibly symbiotic. You know,

they can be incredibly healthy and

wonderful. That that you know, I am way

too serious and the person who I'm with

is going to bring lightness and levity

to the relationship and I'm going to

help them be a little more serious. And

they're going to help me lighten up, you

know? And I'm hard charging and hard

working and everything's like 10 moves

ahead and and my partner's going to like

help me calm down and help me, you know,

not be so hard charging and and be a

little softer and be a little kinder and

rest my head and give me a sort of warm

place to do that. Like that's beautiful.

We're each bringing something different.

So, if I'm a powerful, hard working,

financially successful, financially

secure man and I meet a young, beautiful

woman who has energy and excitement and

who has tremendous gifts, but doesn't

have the resources to be able to do much

with that, you know? Like she's a

talented artist, but you know, she's

busy working, you know, a

thankless, awful job, you know, like

slinging cappuccinos, you know? And and

she she's not able to in this prime of

her life focus on this thing she's so

talented at. And I can say to her, "Hey,

listen, why don't you focus on that?"

And I have resources, an abundance of

them, and I'm happy to share them with

you and and feel like I'm part of your

success and you in turn are part of my

success because you give me this

wonderful respite from the chaos of my

work and and like I don't think that

that's a dishonest economy. I don't

think that So, like to say a gold digger

sort of implies like, "Oh, she's in it

for the money." And it's like, "Okay,

well, I'm in it for the beauty." You

know, so does that mean I'm a horrible,

shallow person or is beauty beautiful?

Is beauty something you want to be

around? And and if we're honest about

the interaction,

how is that predatory? How is that

unfair to either of us? You know, if if

we're honest about it. Like what's

harder for me to deal with is when I

have a client who is, you know, 150 lb

overweight, 5 ft 7,

um and and there is just nothing about

him that aesthetically or even

personality-wise

a woman would go, "Oh, that's my guy."

But he's a billionaire.

You know, and and he's got a young,

gorgeous woman who's allegedly madly in

love with him, and he really believes

that it's his personality.

And it's nothing to do with the fact

that he's a billionaire or that that is

a very small consideration. That feels

to me like the worst kind of of

delusion, you know? Whereas, you could

very honestly say, like, yeah, we each

bring different things to the table, we

each bring different things to each

other's lives. And then yeah, so it is

it is a {quote} {unquote} gold digger.

But, you know, it's also a man who wants

to to to buy the company of someone who

might not otherwise be interested in him

if he wasn't so successful. So, I think

there's a there's a give-and-take in

that relationship. I think that's very

fair. Have you Have you seen examples of

the the latter example where you know,

you describe that billionaire where

there's not many redeeming qualities

where

they're heading towards marriage,

they don't yet have a pre-nup,

you're maybe advising them that they

should get a pre-nup, and they're not

interested because they're so deluded by

the belief that the person is interested

in their wonderful personality or Yeah,

so so the pre-nup conversation is a

really interesting one because I I I do

a lot of pre-nups. Just just to define

what a pre-nup is. Sure, a prenuptial

agreement is a contract between two

people that defines the rule set

essentially for their marriage. So, so

marriage, when we talk about marriage,

you know, people tend to just sort of

use the word marriage, and they're

actually talking about a number of

different things. Like, in some contexts

marriage is a spiritual commitment,

right? It's a religious commitment. It's

tied to In Catholicism, it's a

sacrament. In in Judaism, it's a

covenant with God, you know, in Islam,

it has its own status. So, marriage

exists as a religious concept. Socially,

we have a definition of marriage, right?

Like I am married to this person. We

have married our destinies to each

other. We have agreed that we are each

other's person.

And then, marriage has a specific legal

definition.

And my job as a divorce lawyer is to

take that piece apart for someone or to

create protections for people who are

contemplating entering into that legal

status. So, like, you you've been to

weddings, right? I'm sure you've never

at the end of the wedding said, um,

"Great, guys. I had a wonderful time.

The cake was delicious. Um, I need to

see the paperwork."

"Can I Can I see the license now?" I I

just want to make sure everything was

done properly and that there were

witnesses. You've never said that.

You've never said to your your parents,

"Can I see your marriage license? I'd

like to make sure everything's in order

here." That's not how it works. Like, we

don't do that. So, you could go have a

wedding

and tell people that you're married and

never actually legally marry. You could

just tell people that you're married.

You don't check people's paperwork.

Like, you could just wear a ring if you

want to. And similarly, if you don't

wear a ring, it doesn't mean you're not

legally married. Like, you could be

legally married and still take your ring

off and you're still legally married. If

it was just as easy as taking the ring

off, I'd be out of a job. So,

marriage is a legal status. That's one

of the meanings of marriage. And a

prenuptial agreement,

the way I would describe it

is two people

deciding that they, having picked each

other out of 8 billion people to choose

from in the world,

are in a better position to make the

rules that will govern the economics of

their relationship than the legislature

would be, than politicians would be. And

anyone who's ever been to the Department

of Motor Vehicles, or who's ever been

to, you know, any government agency,

very rarely would you interact with a

government agency and go,

"We should definitely put these people

in charge of our our family life. Like

they're going to do a great job. They're

they're really crushing it, you know?"

Like that's not something people Yet,

most people who are married have almost

no idea what legal rights and

obligations were conferred on them by

getting married. They they just have no

idea. It's the most legally significant

thing they're going to do in their life

other than die.

And they have no idea what their rights

and obligations are. And those rights

and obligations can change.

So, like

politics and the legislature and the way

that rules that govern the spousal

support rights, child support rights,

the division of property,

those are subject to change by

government change. So, for example, in

the United States, um alimony, spousal

support, maintenance, whatever we want

to call it, which is a payment a person

makes to their spouse when there's been

an economic disparity in the marriage

and now they're getting divorced,

that used to be tax-deductible. It used

to have no formula. It was at the

discretion of a judge. Then in 2016,

Trump came into office and he said,

"Yeah, I'm not letting it be

tax-deductible anymore." So, completely

changed. Now, you're already married at

this point. And now the rules about what

governs your marriage have changed. So,

there aren't a lot of contracts in the

world that people could enter into that

the terms could wildly change due to

circumstances beyond your control and

you're still in that same contract. So,

prenuptial agreements

are designed for two people who at that

moment have an abundance of affection

for each other. If they didn't, then

there's no reason that they should be

getting married, that they make up a

rule set that's going to govern their

relationship.

And that typically, as we see it in

movies and such and we hear about it in

culture, is really deciding who gets

what when they break up, right?

Correct. Now, it's hard to say in

advance who gets what when we break up

sometime in the future.

Because we don't know what we're going

to have

in 10 years, in 20 years. So, what do

you do? You create structures.

Like you create, you know, I refer to

the simplest pre-nup as a yours, mine,

and ours.

Which is if it's in my name, whether

it's an asset or a liability, it's mine.

Free from any claim by you, free from

any obligation to you.

If it's in your name, it's yours. Free

from any claim by me, any obligation to

me.

Ours, if it's in our joint names, then

we're equally responsible for it if it's

an obligation, or we're equally entitled

to half the value of it if it's an

asset. That to me, just creating those

three buckets.

Now, here's the problem. You create

those three buckets, you both sign off

on it, and you get married.

You can't just set it and forget it now.

You actually have to have conversations

with this person that you're married to,

which theoretically you should be able

to do, right? Like if you've decided

this is going to be my primary

relationship, this is the person I'm

going to tie my destiny to, you should

be able

to talk about, "Hey, I just got this big

bonus at work.

I'm going to put this much in my sole

account, and I'm going to put this much

in the joint account." And then you

should be able to say if you're the

other person, "Well, why why are you

putting so much of it in your personal

account? Like are things weird with us

or something? Or is there You know, have

some conversation." Again, about why are

we marrying? It's a It's that economy

concept, which is, "Look, what do I owe

you if I marry you? I'd like to know

that in advance because

people say to me all the time, you know,

"Well, I married this person, and when

we got married,

uh he had nothing. He had nothing, and

he built his business while he was

married to me.

And I was very, you know, there for him

while he was building it. So, therefore,

I believe I'm entitled to half the value

of that business. Now,

that's a logical argument. I don't know

that I agree with it, but it's logical.

But, keep going with that logic, right?

So, if that was true, and I built this

business and my wife, who was married to

me while I was building that business,

she helped make that. Okay, well, her

mother and father

helped make who she is. So, I owe them

something, right? Like I cuz if they

hadn't done what they did, I wouldn't

have her and if I didn't have her, I

wouldn't have my business. So, how much

do I owe them? And you know, now that I

think about it, her grandmother

definitely influenced who her mother

was, which influenced who she was, which

influenced what she did for me. So, just

can you let me know in advance how far

down the chain do I owe people and how

much do I owe them? They can't all get

half. So, do they get half of the half

of the half? Or do I like and and and if

this is the logic that we're going to

follow,

then I would like to know in advance

what that is because there are no other

transactions where if you went in to

purchase a car and you said, "How much

is this car?" and they said, "Money."

They said, "Well, how much?" "You know,

it's a good amount." Okay, I again, we

just keep talking in abstractions. I'd

like to know what does this add up to?

How much is it? You know, and it even if

you can't make it a dollar number,

it's X percent of last year's earnings

or like give me a formula, something to

tie it to and at least have that

conversation cuz then you can decide

am I going to sign up for this thing or

not? You must meet a lot of people who

are in a relationship where one of the

people doesn't want to have a prenup.

Yes. I cuz I cuz I when I think about

having a prenup, I'm with a

woman at the moment. We've been together

for 5 years.

Um frankly, if I said to her, "I want to

get a prenup." she would be all for it.

She would That's the type of person she

is. She'd be all for it. Doesn't care.

She'd be all for it.

Excellent. You've done well. But I can

imagine in other relationships, I'd be

nervous

Yeah. to even say the words, because

immediately you're thinking about how

you're getting out before you get in.

Yeah.

Well, and you know, there's a lot to

that. There's a lot to unpack there. So,

the first thing I would say is

all marriages end.

They end in death or they end in

divorce, but they all end, right? And

so, if you said, "I'm going to get life

insurance." It would be foolish for

someone who's with you to say, "Wait,

are you planning on dying soon?" Like it

No, but in the event that I do, I'd like

to make sure that things are taken care

of in a certain way, and in the event

that I do, there's going to be enough

things to be upset and sad about for the

people around me, so I'd like them to

have one less thing. You know, and I I I

also know that there's a possibility. I

hope I won't, but there's a possibility

that I'm going to die in an hour. So,

I'd really hope it doesn't happen, but I

can't say it's definitely not going to

happen. So, divorce, you know, when we

look at statistics like that, it's okay

to say, "Hey, look, you know what? I

hope this never happens, but if it did,

what do we owe each other?

You know, what would you need? Like it's

not just a conversation about what do I

want to keep? What am I entitled to

keep? It's also what what would what

would you need? Have you seen it break

down a marriage because someone

mentioned a pre-nup? Have you seen it

Yeah, I've seen marriage I've seen

marriages that were scheduled to happen

not happen because the pre-nup

discussion happened. But more often than

not, I've seen the threat

of not marrying someone because they

want you to sign a pre-nup

cause a person to fold in their request

for a pre-nup, which to me is a really

bad start for a marriage. So, I've had a

lot of clients who come in, say, "Look,

I I want to have a pre-nup. I have a lot

of confidence in this marriage. I really

love this person, but I would like to,

you know, have a pre-nup in place." And

I draft a pre-nup for them, and it has

reasonable terms, and they give it to

their fiance, and their fiance says,

"Yeah, I'm not signing that. It's not

happening."

And instead of saying, "Okay, like then

you're choosing for us to not marry, you

know, that's okay, but like I love you

and I'd love to marry you, but this is

something that I need in order to feel

comfortable with that."

Um they they just go, "Okay, yeah, never

mind."

And they walk away from it. And and um

because they're intimidated. And I think

that's a that's an awful way to start a

marriage. Like I think that's much worse

than having a discussion about difficult

things. Like

I don't think you would think it's

irresponsible.

You've been with with a woman for 5

years

to say to her, let's say a year ago, or

let's say 4 years ago,

to say to her,

"You know, we're going to get in a fight

sometime.

It's going to happen. Like we're going

to disagree about something. It'll

probably be my fault. I'll probably say

something stupid. I do that sometimes.

So, when we get in a fight someday,

which again, I hope we don't. I'll do

everything I can and not ever get in an

argument with you.

But at some point um something's going

to happen. You're going to say something

that's going to hurt my feelings. I'm

going to take it the wrong way. I'll say

something, you'll take it the wrong way.

Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Sometimes

I'll be in a bad mood and I'll say

something, or I'll have too many drinks

and I'll say something to you that'll

upset you.

When that happens,

how do you how do you like to fight?

Like what's best? Do you need a minute?

Like do you need a minute to calm down?

Do you need to like sleep on it? Or do

you need to like we got to fix this

right now. I can't go to bed angry. Like

I won't be able to sleep. I won't be

able to function. Like Like do we have

to address it right then and there? Cuz

you know the best time to talk about how

we're going to argue when we're not

arguing. You know the worst time to

learn how to fight? In the middle of a

fight. That's the worst time to learn

how to fight. So, I like a pre-nup. I

think a pre-nup can be a very romantic

thing. Cuz it's basically saying, "Look,

I love you, you love me, we want this

thing to work, or else we wouldn't be

signing up for it.

But in the event it breaks down,

you have a right to know what you're

entitled to, I have a right to know what

I'm entitled to. We both have an

interest in making sure that we both

have the things we need, so that neither

of us feels like we're crawling out of

this relationship instead of walking out

of it. Like if I lose you,

I'm going to have a lot more to be sad

about than my stuff.

Well, boy, let me tell you, not knowing

where I'm going to live, or how I'm

going to pay my bills, that's going to

add a layer of pain and complexity to

what is undoubtedly going to be a really

hard situation. So, let's take that off

of each other. Let's Let's know that

because I don't ever want the person who

lays their head on the pillow next to me

to be there cuz they don't want to get

divorced.

I I would rather that it be that they

like having me there next to them, that

their life is better because I'm there,

that they feel like I bring value to

their life and they bring value to mine,

not, "Well, I don't want to go through

all that."

In that case of that person you

referenced there where they came to you

for a pre-nup, their partner gave them

an ultimatum and said, "Listen, no, I'm

not signing that."

How would you kind of draw the line

between being a lawyer

versus like a therapist or an adviser,

sort of like a relationship adviser?

Yeah, I mean, I have to tell you, it's a

very seamless. I I don't um

I don't think it's easy to distinguish

between. We're attorneys at law. I might

I have an undergraduate degree in

psychology.

And I think I use it as much as I use my

law degree because this is so personal

that it's very hard to not give human

advice while I'm giving legal advice.

And I'm dealing in the clay of of, you

know, human emotion and human human

connection and human frailty and human

emotional complexity.

I thought pre-nups were illegal.

I thought they were like people went and

got them, but they when it comes to

enforcement enforcement, they don't hold

up. You know, it could be true in the

UK, but certainly not in the USA. It's

They are They are enforceable. They are

binding. Sometimes they're crazy how

enforceable they are.

Oh, really? Like it's Because the nature

of a pre-nup is

as long as it was not what's called

unconscionable. Unconscionable is a

contract that is so unfair that no

fair-dealing person would offer it, and

no sane person would accept it. So,

that's what unconscionability is. So,

you have to be A contract has to be

unconscionable for it to be set aside,

okay? Now,

I have seen some pre-nups

that were in their interpretation

unconscionable, meaning

you know, at the time they entered into

it, he had nothing and she had nothing.

And now they're getting divorced, and

under the terms of this, he's going to

walk out with a hundred million dollars,

and she's going to walk out with almost

nothing.

But as long as it was not unconscionable

at the time it was made,

if it's unconscionable in its

performance, it's still binding. So,

I have seen the outcome of pre-nups

sometimes be shockingly unfair,

but you have a right to contract. As

long as it wasn't fraud, as long as it

wasn't duress or undue influence, or if

someone was under the, you know,

influence of drugs or alcohol when they

signed off on it, it's a binding

contract because we believe in in in

human autonomy and agency and the right

to make decisions about your life and

your future. So,

Is that exa- Is exa- Is that the most

real one? Is that the the most shocking

one you've seen? No, the most shocking

pre-nup I've ever seen,

which was enforceable,

um had a provision that said that for

every 10 lb the wife gained in the

marriage, she would lose $10,000 a month

in alimony. 10 lb of weight. Yes. Yes.

So, so it it it was a very wealthy man

who was wearing marrying a very

attractive woman. But, he was very

concerned that she was going to become

less attractive and he was going to

become more wealthy. So, his solution to

this

was in the prenuptial agreement, he

wanted a clause that said she would get

if they divorced, she was going to get

like $70,000

a month

for alimony.

But, for every 10 lb she gained from the

date of marriage, she would forfeit

10,000 a month worth of alimony. And it

was designed to sort of create an

incentive that she would remain thin.

And that was enforceable.

Meaning, they tried to challenge and set

aside that provision.

And the court said,

"This is a disgusting provision. I don't

know why you married this person,

but it's enforceable. It's a contract.

The two of you signed it and you had a

right to sign it and you agreed to these

rules and they may be ridiculous rules,

but you agreed to them and you have a

right to do that." Do you think that was

love?

Again, I I think it's a kind of love. I

think it's a form of love. I Is it a

form of love I'd be interested in? No. I

think it's very shallow in some ways.

There's something very honest about it.

I mean, you can't argue with the fact

that there's something very

upfront about it. He was making very

clear and putting in writing, "Here's

the value you bring to this

relationship. You know, I consider your

physical appearance

vitally important to this relationship."

And by the way, don't skip the other

side of that equation. Yeah. She was

going to get $70,000

a month. That's very impressive number.

So, you know, I I think she she also

understood there was a value to be

attached to him as well. You know, and

and it's so it's

Is it something I would be interested in

on either side of that equation? No.

But, do I have a right to say to someone

that's not love? I I don't think I have

a right to say that to someone. I think

that if this is an economy the two of

you have agreed on that, you know, as a

lawyer see my my job as a lawyer is not

to look like I don't look at it that

way. I look at the engineering of it.

So, like if I'm representing her

in that transaction,

all I could think is, okay, so we're

going to want her baseline weight to be

as high as possible.

So, I'm going to want her to have

pennies in her pockets after at the day

we sign the pre-nup cuz you'd have to

establish a baseline, right? Cuz if you

say gaining 10 lb, you'd have to

establish a baseline weight on the date

of the marriage. So, she was weighed on

the date of the marriage. Well, in or

about the date of the marriage. The

parties acknowledge that on on or about

the date of marriage she weighed

approximately X pounds. So, if I'm her,

I want that to be as high as possible.

So, I'm going to be putting pennies in

my pockets and eating as many

cheeseburgers as I can before the

weigh-in. Now, we're getting divorced,

I'm going to be like a wrestler. I'm

going to be in the sauna.

I'm going to be sweating as much as I

can. I'm going to take diuretics. I'm

going to eat nothing but like grilled

vegetables for a week or two, you know?

And I'm going to I'm going to take off

every ounce of clothing I can cuz I want

to minimize my weight. This is why this

is why lawyers don't get invited to

parties cuz that's how we analyze

problems. Like I didn't hear that and

go, what is the nature of their

coupling? I looked at it and I went, oh,

I could play with that. I could work

I get it I get it whoever I'm

representing in that transaction I could

figure out a way to, you know, kind of

make that work.

You become a coach.

Kind of is. I mean, it it turns into an

engineering question as opposed to a

human question.

I heard about this thing when I was

reading your book of these um

I've watching some of your stuff online

that I didn't know existed, which was

fidelity contracts. Fidelity clauses,

yeah.

Fidelity clauses.

Yeah, yeah. So, it's something people

include in prenuptial agreements, and

also sometimes in what's called a

postnuptial agreement. So, a postnuptial

agreement, you know, nuptial meaning

marriage, pre meaning before marriage,

post meaning after marriage. So, if you

didn't get a prenup, but your marriage,

for whatever reason,

becomes fragile, maybe someone learns of

an affair, or maybe you're starting to

have difficulties with each other, but

you don't want a divorce,

but you'd like there to be some clarity

as to if we divorce, what will the rules

be? You can do something called a

postnuptial agreement.

Okay. And and that would, in the event

you divorce, make the divorce a little

less acrimonious because you've resolved

certain issues. It's basically like the

prenup you should have had.

Okay. So, I have seen people in both

prenups and in postnups put in what's

called fidelity clauses, which

essentially are a clause that say that

if you cheat on your spouse,

here's what the penalty will be. And it

could be a financial penalty.

It could have, you know, a

support-related context. It could have

be a percentage of certain ownership

rights, you know, things that you have.

Are they a good idea from what you've

seen? Are they useful in

I think they're a terrible idea. Yeah,

from a legal standpoint, they're a

terrible idea.

For for a couple of reasons. One,

defining cheating is very tricky. Uh you

know, if if if if you're

if we're going to define cheating as a

specific form of sexual contact,

I guess that's a pretty clear

definition. But but even infidelity,

it's not all created equal. I mean, I

think we could all agree that

if you if your partner

when they were drunk on vacation or at a

party,

you know, had some kind of fleeting

sexual contact with another person, and

then woke up the the day and went, "Oh

my god, what did I do? I regret this so

much." But, they're never going to see

this person again. It was just a stupid

dalliance. It happens, you know. Again,

not excusing that behavior, but

that's different than if you were having

an ongoing affair with another person.

Or I think there are probably some

people if they were being honest,

if they said, "Would you rather that

your spouse on a drunken night out

kissed somebody

or was texting

another person five times a day for 6

weeks and sharing the most intimate

thoughts?"

You know, and what we call an emotional

affair. Well, I mean, I think we can

agree that like something about an

emotional affair like someone becoming

your confident. They're They're I once

heard someone say and I In my

professional life, I found it to be true

that when men find out that a woman who

they're with has had an affair,

their first question is, "Did you sleep

with them?"

When women find out a man had an affair,

their first question is, "Are you in

love with her?"

And I think that tells you a lot about

men and women's relationships because

there's a sense of, "Okay, what what was

this?

Was this sex

or was this like I'm I don't love you

anymore. I don't want you in my life

anymore?" Because those are two really

different things. And And so, a fidelity

clause is a one-size-fits-all

concept that just says, "Okay, we're

going to define cheating

and then there's going to be a penalty

for you doing it."

Now, again,

in what I've observed in life, cheating

is its own penalty.

Cheating turns your life at best

cheating turns your life into like an

unbelievably complicated like jumping

from one foot to another, lying to

everyone involved. Like rarely

does anybody get out of infidelity

without hurting themselves and a bunch

of other people.

Like whether it's not only their

partner, but even the person who they

cheated with, or or that person's

partner. Like there's so there's so much

pain to go around when when cheating

happens.

And so, to say, "And there's going to be

an economic penalty." You know, it's a

bit like,

you know, using drugs is illegal in a

lot of places, but I can't imagine that

there's a heroin addict who goes, "You

know, I'm going to shoot up. Oh, wait,

it's illegal. I don't want to get in

trouble." And And I'm going to Like

that's not how it works. Like you're

adding insult to injury, you know? This

person They're already in a very

difficult position. I don't think making

it illegal is going to do much except

create an underground economy. Same kind

of thing. I I think that infidelity

there should be sufficient incentives in

a relationship to not cheat.

And there there are already, by

definition, so many consequences for

cheating, that adding to that an

economic penalty, I don't know that a

person's going to be about cheating and

then go,

"This could cost me like 20 more grand.

Uh no, I'm not going to do it." Are you

seeing more and more people getting

those prenups?

Yeah, prenups are

I have to tell you, there's a

generational shift happening. I I see a

lot of people in their I've been doing

this job for 25 years.

And I will tell you,

the people currently in their 20s and

early 30s, like the prime demographic

for marriage, mid mid 20s to mid 30s,

are getting prenups at a rate that I

would say is probably 5x what it was 10

years ago, 15 years ago, certainly 25

years ago from when I started. I I think

there's a more

pragmatic view of relationships. I think

that there's there's a lot more open

discussion. I mean, although there is a

tremendous increase in the amount of

like performative,

"Look how happy we are," you know,

meanwhile, it's like, you know, white

teeth and rotting gums. You know, like

we're we're we're doing the performative

social media, look at how great, hashtag

blessed, and meanwhile our life is, you

know, is our relationship is is rotting

from the inside. Um and we see a lot of

that. Like I I I'll tell you something,

I see people in my office

who publicly are having the greatest

relationships ever. Like if you believe

their social media,

they are so madly in love, and it shocks

me because I think about all the people

that are dissatisfied in their perfectly

acceptable relationship cuz it's not as

amazing as that relationship. And

meanwhile, that relationship is nowhere

near that amazing as they'd have you

believe it. And and we've got the

audacity now as a culture that people

without any apology,

you know, do the we're perfectly happy,

these hateful rumors that we're unhappy

are terrible, and then we've decided to

amicably part ways. We ask you to

respect our privacy during this

difficult time. And you're like, okay,

but wait a minute. Like a month ago when

there was rumors that the two of you

were splitting up, you yelled at all of

us for saying it's so mean that we're

speculating, and now you're like, yes,

we've split up. So we were right. So we

you were making us feel awful about

ourselves and how madly in love you were

with each other, but now, you know, we

were basing our lives, like we're we're

basing our our our level of satisfaction

on watching your greatest hits while we

live our gag reel. Do you think there's

something in the idea that those that

endeavor to convince the world that

they're happy in their relationships

are often not as happy?

100%. I'll actually extrapolate that

further. My my father's a southerner, so

he has a lot of southern folksy things

he says, and one of them was empty

barrels make the most noise.

And he used to say that to me when I was

a kid all the time. Whenever somebody

had something fancy that they owned, cuz

I grew up without a lot of money, and

then someone would drive a beautiful

car, and I'd say, "Wow, that car is so

cool." He'd say, "You know, empty

barrels make the most noise." That that

the people that that have true joy in

their relationship really don't feel

like they have to advertise it. People

who have a like I I represent some of

the wealthiest people in the world. Like

New York is the epicenter of commerce

and finance for the United States and to

some degree for the world.

You know, in the UAE you're more likely

to find a gold plated Ferrari, but in

New York like finance, Wall Street, like

it is it is the home of it. So I

represent I have a client who's worth $8

billion. You would walk past him on the

street, you would never know he has very

much money at all. He drives a Jeep

Grand Cherokee,

which is like a very mid-range car. He

wears like, you know, totally

nondescript clothing. Like he just looks

like a typical middle-aged dude and you

would not look at him and go like he

gets his hair cut at like Supercuts for

25 bucks. Like he's not posh in the

things that he owns and does. And he's

he could buy,

you know, he his income annually is like

the gross domestic product of a few

company of a few countries.

And, you know, he's not But then again I

have clients who appear

to be incredibly wealthy. And as a

divorce lawyer I get to see

the absolutely unfiltered version of

people's finances and I can tell you

they are deeply in debt many of them.

You know, this is particularly true of

celebrities.

You know, celebrities have to live these

big performative lives cuz if they're

they don't, you know, drive a posh car

and they don't wear the the latest

designer labels, there's this sense of

oh are they not doing well? And

especially with sort of influencer

culture, you know, there's just so much

like, you know, everything everyone's

wearing and doing has to be the best of

the best and the most expensive.

I I find very often these are the more

people have to flaunt their wealth,

the less wealth they probably have.

Like, you know, money talks like wealth

whispers and it's very comfortable just

whispering. It doesn't feel like it has

to prove to the world. In fact, it it

would rather that everyone not know who

it was. There was a time

where fame was an unfortunate side

effect of talent.

So, you were really good at something.

So, then everybody heard about who you

were, and all of a sudden everybody knew

who you were. And that was unfortunate

cuz you couldn't go out to eat anymore.

You couldn't just live your life

anymore. Now, of course, there were

times where it probably felt really

nice. You know, it feels good. Listen, I

I walk down the street in New York City

sometimes. People today, guys said to

me, "Hey, man, love your stuff." Thanks.

That's great. Feels nice. Definitely

nice. There's times where it doesn't.

There's times where I'm on my phone. I'm

I'm in the middle of talking to a

client, and somebody's standing there

next to me waiting to talk to me, and I

know they're waiting to say something so

lovely.

But there's a part of me that's like,

okay, man, I I got to like do what I'm

doing right now. I'm I'm I'm doing the

thing, you know.

And now being famous is the goal for so

many people. So, I I think there is

definitely, when people say, "Look at

how happy we are. Look at how happy we

are. Look at

You know, it's like, please, tell me how

happy we are because if you don't tell

me how happy we are, I'm going to have

to look at this relationship, and I'm

going to see how unhappy we are. You

know, when someone wants to be famous,

it's like, tell me I have value. Please

tell me I have value. Oh, God, please

tell me I have value.

Because,

you know, the the reason I was never

really interested in being famous

is that

the praise of strangers never really

felt that important to me. Like if the

people in my life think I have something

interesting to say, and care about me,

and like me, that's really meaningful to

me. And I'm touched for anyone who's

ever appreciated my work or enjoyed it.

But I never said like, oh, I really want

to get out there, and you know, have

people know who I am, and tell me I'm

smart because cuz I I know I'm smart.

Like it's okay. Like you don't My

beliefs don't require you to believe

them.

And and so, I I think this performative

culture when it comes to relationships

is an unfortunate thing because again,

we're comparing ourselves we can't help

as a species but compare ourselves to

the things we see around us.

But you must see so much of that in your

office where someone comes in and they

say my marriage isn't working and they

use the

they use a comparative measure. They say

well, you know, Jenny and Dave they're

like this and we're not so But how much

sex are they having? How much like how

much sex is enough sex? Like honestly.

Like we don't talk about these things.

We don't we don't there's so much of our

day-to-day life

that we're constantly feeling like we're

not doing well

based on nothing.

Like I don't think I'm doing that well.

Compared to what? I'm not good-looking

enough. Compared to what? A photoshopped

image of a person on steroids? Yeah,

you're right. You don't look like a

photoshopped person on steroids. You're

not supposed to. Like women are going

into doctor's offices saying make me

look like this and showing the doctor

something that's been photoshopped. That

person doesn't look like that. Like how

would you know you're not having enough

sex? How much sex are people having? Is

that frequent one sex? Yeah, sex is

huge. Sex is huge. It's well, I mean

first of all, it better be

because what's the difference between a

spouse and a roommate otherwise? Like it

was just like oh, we're going to be

partners in a home together. Like you

don't have to marry each other to do

that. You can just live together and be

I mean sex is the glue. Sex is the thing

that brings you together. Sex is what

makes a romantic relationship a romantic

relationship. And again, it can be any

number of varieties of sex. It can be

preferences of sex. It can be anything.

But we don't talk about we talk about

all kinds of things in in polite society

now if you can call it that. I mean we

talk more than we ever did about, you

know, transgender issues and LGBTQ+

issues. And I think that's progress. I

think it's great that people can talk

about anything. We can talk about kink.

We can talk about like I'm a big fan of

people being able to speak openly about

the things that make them happy and make

them feel good and, you know, not having

to feel ashamed about certain things.

But, baseline?

Like,

how how Well, we're not having enough

sex. Okay, compared to what? The sex we

used to have as a couple? That makes

sense. That makes sense to me. Like, if

we set a baseline and say, we used to

have sex every day.

When we first started dating, we had sex

four times a day. Okay, but then the you

know, luster wears off.

You know, now we we we used to have sex

once a day. Now, once a week.

Is that okay? Is that natural? Is that

part of the progression of a

relationship? Or is that a sign that one

or both of us are feeling dissatisfied

with each other? Can we talk about that

and not have it be a fight?

Can we talk about that and not hear it

as a as a something that we have to

react defensively to? And that's that's

the stuff I tried to talk about in my

book is that people come in and they go,

well, you know, we're unhappy with each

other. I was cheating on her. I was

cheating on her because she wasn't

sleeping with me. Well, I wasn't

sleeping with him because he's never

nice to me. Well, I'm not nice to her

because every time I talk to her, all

she does is put me down.

Okay, and you sit here going, okay, so

you guys have just been in this death

spiral.

You know, just going down and down and

down. You started at I love you more

than eight billion other people in the

world. But, somehow you just started to

do this death spiral. And now you're

right, you won. You guys you won. You're

both right. You don't have to sleep with

him. You don't have to be nice to her.

You don't have to say a kind word. You

don't have to do any of that. You don't

have to be married. Great news. You

don't have to be married. But, you

decided to be married. You signed up to

be married. So, at some point this made

sense to you. You liked each other that

much. And you were both pointing in the

same direction and at some point you

lost the plot. So, my feeling is

wouldn't it be better

before you completely lose the plot

to just do the preventative maintenance?

To just

maintenance?

Talk about what Are we still as

connected as we were? Are we still as

excited as we were? Are we still

you know, are we still attracted to each

other? Are we still enjoying each other

physically, mentally, like emotionally?

want to do that though cuz it's

uncomfortable, right? Okay. Lots of

things are uncomfortable that are so

good for you. You know, exercise is

uncomfortable until you get in a rhythm

of it and that feels really good, you

know? So, how how would you know if the

first time you went to the gym and you

worked out and you went home and you

were like, "Oh my god, I'm so sore. I'm

never working out again." Then you will

never get into an exercise routine. You

have to get through that part where

everything's really sore. And you're

still sometimes going to be sore. You

overdid it, you know? But you start to

realize, "Yeah, but it's also bringing

tremendous value to my life, you know?"

And so, why not? Like why not trade what

you want now, which is comfort in the

moment, for what you want most, which is

real connection, real intimacy, like

real joy? And and and that can be And

again, we want it.

86% of people who get divorced wouldn't

get remarried within 5 years if we

didn't want it. If we didn't believe it

was possible. And if you've ever met

someone

who is happily married over a long

period of time,

you won the lottery.

Like they're so Their lives are just so

much better because they just go, "I

have this partner." Cuz this is

terrifying.

Like life is terrifying and it's brutal.

And it and it and it ends. It invariably

ends. We're all going to die. Everyone

we love's going to die. Like we're

playing a game you can't win to the

utmost. And to me,

to have a partner in that, someone who

you can hold their hand and go, you

know, when you're scared, I'll be here

for you, and when I'm scared, you'll be

here for me, and you'll help me see my

blind spots, and I'll help you see

yours, and let's just do this thing,

we'll never be alone. Like, what a

gorgeous thought that is. What a

beautiful thought that is. What a worthy

pursuit that is. But, yeah, you got to

be uncomfortable once in a while. You

got to tell it each other something

other than what the other person wants

to hear once in a while. But, to me,

like, if the payoff is real connection,

keeping real intimacy, keeping your

partner happy and satisfied with you, so

that the thought of splitting up or

running off with somebody else is just a

fleeting thought that maybe occasionally

jumps into their head, like, that seems

such a worthwhile investment to me.

Preventative maintenance.

I wanted to drill down a little bit into

what that actually looks like, cuz

there'll be a lot of people right now,

including myself, who heard you use this

term preventative maintenance.

And immediately I thought, "Jesus

Christ, I probably should do that a

little bit more." Sure. What do you mean

by preventative maintenance? It can be

lots of things. I think it can be I try

to give a lot of examples, but I

I think some of the simplest examples

are very small gestures of courtesy. I

mean,

think about when you first started

dating.

All the little things that made the back

of your neck tingle about this person.

Like, they would say the littlest thing

about you, and it made you so happy cuz

they were noticing you.

You know, and they they they saw

beautiful things in you, and that made

you see and feel those things in

yourself.

You know, that that's a beau- amazing

thing we can do for each other, you

know? And and so,

I mean, at its core level, like, the the

the the example I've given to a lot of

my male friends,

and and several of them have done it,

and I've got a lot of really good

feedback on it, is leave leave a note.

Just leave a note in the morning when

you leave for work or wherever it is

you're going, just leave a note. You

know, it was so great hanging out with

you last night. I'm with the prettiest

girl in the whole world.

Can't wait to see you again. That's it.

What does that take? 10 seconds?

10 seconds.

And and every guy I meet

who I say that to,

they go, "Yeah, the first time I did it,

she was like, what is going on? Why did

you leave me that note? What are you

What What What is What's going on?" But

then after a little while, like if this

is just something you do that you go,

"Yeah, I just, you know, I want to make

a practice of like how I want to tell

you this stuff I forget to tell you

sometimes."

You know, like what does that take? Like

what does it take for your partner to

say to you, "You're so smart. Like I

just love being around you. Like you're

so handsome. I'm so lucky." Like what

does that take? That's nothing. Doesn't

cost anything. Takes nothing to do that.

Why don't we do it? I don't know. I

don't know. I I think we just whoever

discovered water it wasn't a fish, like

I think you're just in it and you just

stop seeing it. And that person's just

there. And again, I don't know And I

also think culture is antagonistic to

it. Cuz the example I give to people cuz

people love their dogs, and I love my

dogs.

But like dogs are a great

way to look at this rationality. Because

I've got a 13-year-old dog.

I got him when he was a puppy. Now he's

13. And like me, he's slowed down a lot.

His back hurts. He's not quite the puppy

he used to be.

I have never once looked at that dog and

gone,

"I got to get a puppy.

This old This old dog. He doesn't look

as cute as he used to." And like, "Oh my

god, have you seen how cute puppies

are?" Like I would never. That's my dog,

man. I fall more in love with that dog

every single day. You know?

And yeah, sure, puppies are cute and

they're great, and I'll pet them, but

that's my dog, man. I wouldn't trade all

the puppies in the world for that dog.

Your partner? Your romantic partner?

Like what What it become acceptable

as it as it is in in culture to just

just piss all over your partner. Like

every guy it's like the

I'm married to the most loathsome harpy

ever to castrate a man. Like this one,

the old ball and chain. And women, it's

like the guy is like, "Oh, this idiot.

Like this just lovable idiot, you know,

he doesn't know. He doesn't know

anything. He's so stupid. Men are so

stupid." Like when did that What do you

think's going to come from that? Other

than this disdain that we can then have

for each other and this sort of

disrespect as opposed to being like so

into each other, which is what you were

when you were strangers. You know, when

you didn't know each other, you know,

every all the same women sitting around

in a group of women talking about how

much their husbands suck.

When their female friend goes, "Oh my

god, I'm seeing this guy I just started

seeing. What did he Oh my god, he sounds

so great." All All this is All this is

is your guy 5 years ago.

But somehow now, you're you're really

going to buy the delusion

that if she it all works out with him

and they get married and they do their

little fairy tale thing and the cake and

the dress and the whole thing that in 5

years she's still going to be like,

"He's so great." No, it's going to be

"Oh, he's a uh" again. Just like the

rest of you. So, we need to start

as a culture

you know, perhaps changing the way cuz I

think there is something about that

where we you know, we're trying to like

not make people self-conscious. So, we

just like take the piss out of our

partner all the time in front of, you

know, people or around other people. And

I I don't find that charming. Do you

think that when we get to the lovable

idiot Oh my god, happy wife, happy life,

all that stuff, which is part of culture

Happy wife, who Whoever said that should

just be beaten to death. Happy wife,

happy life. Like if I hear one more

person give that advice to somebody, I

have to tell you, that is just the most

ridiculous What does that even mean?

Happy wife, happy life. If she's happy,

then I'm happy.

Because Is that true? I think it I

I think it's used by men who believe

that their wife is always unhappy.

So, if she's not shouting at me, and I

can just sit here and watch the

football, Yeah. then all all is well.

that something to aspire to?

You know, man, I can't wait what? For

someday for my kids to just sit there

while the up person in the other room is

just mildly dissatisfied with them, and

they can just sit and watch, you know,

the football. Get really? That's That's

what we're aspiring to? That's what you

hope for? Like, I got to tell I just

don't I think our goals are really

misaligned. You know, my greatest

accomplishment in life is my children.

Really? That's your greatest

accomplishment in life is your children.

What Let me ask you this. What will your

children's greatest accomplishment in

life be? Having children? Cuz guess

what? This is the ideology of a cancer

cell.

Growth for the sake of growth for the

sake of growth for the sake of growth.

Reproduction for the sake of

reproduction. I don't think that's the

highest, noblest goal. I think there

should be something in there about

quality of life, about making the world

where the experience of others better.

Like, again, it's not for me to define,

but but I certainly I don't

Intelligence is hard to define, but I

can spot stupid a mile away.

And I have to tell you, a good

relationship, you know, it's kind of

hard to quantify, but man, I know what

sucks. I know a bad relationship when I

see one, and we all know them. So,

what's more uncomfortable?

That relationship where, you know, at

least she's not yelling at me, and she's

only mildly dissatisfied, and I can just

be left alone for an hour and watch the

football.

Or having having conversation, again,

while you still like each other,

but there's a little slippage. There's a

little something going in the other

direction, and I don't want it to go too

far. I mean, put it into the physical

context. It is a whole lot easier to

maintain a healthy weight

than to gain 100 lb and then try to

figure out how to lose it. That's much,

much harder, and it's much worse for

you. And the chances of you actually

accomplishing them are way lower.

Whereas, maintaining a healthy weight,

that's not an unrealistic thing to be

able to do. Is there I had sat here with

a one psychologist, um, who I'm sure

you'll know, a very famous individual.

Um, called Jordan Peterson. And he said

to me, he said

he was shouting when he said it. He

said, "Listen, he was you're going to

have to sit down for 90 minutes a week,

and you're going to have to listen to

her. And she's going to tell you

everything that's wrong." And he goes,

"If you don't listen to her for 90

minutes a week, you'll be listening to

her in divorce court." And he was he was

almost shouting when he says it. The

analogy he's making

What he's saying is what you're saying.

Yeah. Is you're going to have

Yeah.

I You know,

Jordan I I find Jordan Peterson very

entertaining. I've been a fan of his

work a long time. Um, and I I loved

actually your conversation with him. Um,

what I will say is I think that he's

sort of hyperbolic in his presentation

sometimes, which I I enjoy. But I think

we totally agree on this. I think that

that what he's saying more than anything

is that you can invest now

in candor

and in listening to this person in a

non-defensive manner. And And so,

there's a chapter in my book called Hits

and Now,

where I talk about exactly that, where I

say, "You need to be able to have these

conversations, but have them in a way

that that you're hearing it, and you're

saying it. You're agreeing. It's a

contract

that we know we love each other. So,

we're going to try to say it with love.

We're going to try to hear it with love.

Because I'm only saying it cuz I this is

important to me, this relationship, and

I want it to be good for you and for me.

So, I'm going to go out on a limb here.

I'm going to take this risk cuz you're

worth it. You are worth it for me to

take this risk. It's scary. I'm not

excited about having to say it. But you

know what? Like I care enough. And when

you say things to me, I'm going to hear

it. I'm going to hear it as you saying,

I care so much about this relationship,

I'm going to say this harder thing to

say. And it might be little.

It might be, you know, you said the

other night you were talking about my

sister and you made that little joke

about her and it felt like you were like

kind of making fun of my sister and I

thought you liked my sister and it's

really important to me that you like my

sister cuz I really like my sister. So,

maybe I misunderstood you and if I did,

okay, great. Let me know that. Hit send

now. Just hit send now. The reason I

said hit send now is when you

You ever like write an email where you

said something important and you like

write it, rewrite it, and you craft it

and you're like about to hit send and

you're like, oh boy.

And then you hit it and you're like,

well, it's there now.

Can't unsend it now. Like it's done. I

hit send now. That's where I got the

term hit send now. Because But I But I

said like make it a technique. Like say

to your partner,

I want to do this. I want you to do it

and I want to do it. But I want to make

it clear. Like make the subject heading

of the email hitting send now. Okay, so

they know. So, they know

this is not an attack.

This is something I want to get off my

chest. You don't have to respond right

away.

You don't have to respond in writing if

you don't want to. But I just want to

put this out there cuz I want you to

digest it. And the key to this is I read

in your book is to do it quickly Yep.

and do it honestly. Yep. Yep. And And

And to again, to make a point of calling

this out as a technique when you're in a

good place. So, when you're already in a

good place, there's an abundance of

goodwill between us. We're in a a spot.

That's a good time to say, "Hey, look,

this is good, man, and this is

important. So, let's keep it good." And

the way we're going to do that is if I

say to you,

you know, we used to I'm making an

example. We used to have sex five times

a week, and now I feel like it's like,

you know, once a week, maybe. And I I

think you're so attractive. I love I

love it. Like, I don't feel any less

attracted to you. And I know, you know,

we've been busy and things like that,

but like, I don't want to see that slip.

I want you to be the person that fills

all my desires and all my fantasies. I

don't want to look at porn. I don't want

to think about other things. I want to

really be focused on you. Is there

something I'm doing

that's causing you to be less interested

in me? Is there something I could do

that would spark things better? Is there

something going on that I need to know

in terms of how you feel about me? But

what if it's personal? And what if it's

offensive?

What if it's Isn't it better to know?

If it's personal and it's offensive,

isn't it better to know?

Like, cuz I tell you, I'll come up with

a thousand different reasons it might

be, and only one of them might be

accurate. And the other 999 might be

complete garbage in my mind. Like, I

might be convinced that it's cuz you're

cheating. I might be convinced that it's

I'm not attracted to you all of a sudden

cuz, you know, my hair got grayer or I

got a bad haircut or something stupid.

What if it's that? Then wouldn't you

rather know? Wouldn't you rather know?

Wouldn't you And find some other And

listen, I'm not saying, by the way,

everything isn't everything, right?

Like, there are things in relationships

that you might just say, "Yeah, I don't

know, that's changed. Like, I used to be

really into that, and now I'm not

anymore, you know?" Or that used to mean

a lot to me, and now it doesn't. And

that gives your partner a chance to say,

"Well, look, it's still really important

to me. So, can we find some common

ground?" How frequent is sex the issue

in divorce? As in not I'm not talking

about affairs. I'm saying sexlessness.

Yeah, that's a great question. So,

And also, is it increasing? Yeah, so

here's what I'll say. There There's

reverse engineering the demise of a

marriage is a very difficult thing for

anybody to do because the two people in

the relationship aren't even really

fully aware of what's going on in

themselves, much less each other. And

then an outside observer asking them.

So, like you can do all the studies you

want of people's self-reported

satisfaction or lack of satisfaction in

a relationship or what caused them to

become dissatisfied. That is so loaded

up with people's delusion and people's

projection and all these other things

that I only even quantified. So,

everything I'm saying, I'm saying as a

divorce lawyer who I think is empathetic

and who I think for a living puts myself

in other people's mind to try to

understand what they're doing and why

they did what they did and come up with

the best and worst possible excuses for

it and then to tell that story, right?

Like I'm a full contact storyteller.

That's my job. So, and my job, if you're

really honest, is to manipulate people's

emotional state.

My job is to make a judge feel good

about my client, bad about the other

side, make the other side feel scared,

make my client feel safe. That's my job.

It's to manipulate everybody's emotional

state through the power of storytelling.

That's what being a divorce lawyer is.

It sounds sexier when I say it that way.

But, that is what it is. So, when we

look at that as the job,

where does sex fall into that equation?

It's

it's everywhere in that equation.

Because again, it is the thing that

separates this relationship from other

kinds of relationships. Sex is the thing

that is definitional to a romantic

relationship. Now again, will it always

be the same? Will it always stay at the

same level of importance? No. But, is it

a great canary in the coal mine?

That you know, like something's off with

the sex now, that that that that that

tragedy's not far behind? Yeah. Like

because almost every couple

when I talk to my side of the equation

about when did this thing start when did

the ship start to sink?

There was certainly some change in sex.

Because again, sex is definitional in

terms of what distinguishes a romantic

relationship from a platonic

relationship. Cuz listen, guys, we can

do this however we want as a society. We

don't have to get married. We do not

have to get married. We just have to We

just have to reproduce.

But we could just decide, "Hey, we're

just going to reproduce and we're going

to live in like colonies of platonic,

you know, relationships and we'll just

have sex for the purposes of breeding at

certain times and then we'll figure out

who gets to raise what kids and that'll

be that." We don't do that. And And it's

not like Well, we don't do that cuz we

made a set of rules. Societies don't do

that. They've never really done that.

Like this There's somehow this

permutation in the human and animal

kingdom keeps coming up where we have

pair bonds and we reproduce with the

person who's our partner and then we

sort of work together and you know, how

much does the tribe, how much does the

rest of the world get involved in that,

how extended is the family, how extended

is the tribe? That varies, right? From

species to species, from culture to

culture, from time to time. But we this

fundamental idea of like reproduction

between, you know, the male and the

female of the species and there being

some then continued interaction and a

sharing of responsibilities towards the

rearing of the young

it's pretty common, right? So, what's

the thing

that makes

A and B? It's the sex. Like there's

there's there's sex. There's some

romantic or sexual component to that

relationship that then leads to

reproduction of some kind. So, I think

when you take that out of the equation

or when there's a change in that,

there's a disruption in the force,

right? There's a disruption in the

system. And then

you can trace it back.

Like yeah, we And again, sometimes it's

not direct cause and effect. Like oh, we

started having less sex and then we

stopped being nice to each other.

Sometimes we stop being nice to each

other so we stopped having as much sex.

But it's an element. It's always an

element there, you know? And then that's

my key piece of advice to everyone in

the book that I try to say over and over

and over again. If you had to like

summarize it is pay attention.

Just pay attention.

To to what you're feeling and to what