Our

[music]

next presenter is the creator of Open

Claw, the world's fastest growing

open-source AI. He recently joined

OpenAI to work on bringing agents to

everyone. Please join me in welcoming to

the stage Peter Steinberger.

Good morning everyone.

>> [applause]

>> So, Swiss asked me to do a state of the

claw. Who here is running open claw?

Give me some hands.

Ah, it's like 30 40%. Very good. Um,

yeah,

it's been quite a few months. Um, the

project is now five months old.

I think it's fair to say by now that we

are the fastest growing project in

GitHub's history. Um, if you've seen the

the graph, usually it's some some

projects look like a hockey stick, but

ours was just like a straight line and a

friend called it stripper pole gross

and that comes with its own challenges.

So, we have I think now we are the the

largest number on GitHub stars. There's

a few that are bigger but they're

basically educational target. No other

software project is that big. It's

around 30,000 commits. It we're closing

in 2,000 contributors

soon to be 30,000 PRs. Um,

see, and we're not slowing down. So, you

see that it's a ramp, but you know, it's

we only have April 9. So, um,

velocity keeps keeps being good.

And at the same time,

it hasn't been easy. You know, I I had

two roads when I when I decided what I

want to do and I I did the whole company

thing. I was like, I don't want to do

this again. And then I joined OpenI, but

then we also created the Open Cloud

Foundation. And now I kind of have two

jobs.

And running the foundation is like a

running a company on hard mode because

you have like all the all the things

that you need to take care of but also

you have a lot of volunteers that you

can't really direct.

So

one of my goals has been working on the

on the bus factor like who does comets.

Um and you see that it's slowly

improving.

Vincent's actually talking after me but

we're still not we're still not there.

Um, in the last months I I talked to a

lot of companies.

So we now have people from Nvidia on

board. We have someone from Microsoft on

board to like help with MS Teams with

like a Windows app. Uh, we have someone

from Red Hat who's really helping us um

with security and dockerization. We work

with a lot of Chinese companies. We have

people from from Tencent and Biteance.

um they're actually much larger users

than any other continent

and yeah people from pretty much around

the world but like the main thing I I

want to like talk a little bit about is

about open claw is so insecure you know

you've you've seen the

you've seen the memes like open claw

invites the bad guys

and you probably also seen

companies like Nvidia

doing Nemo claw and like everyone has

little lobsters.

So

you also notice that like in the last

two three months there's been a lot of

releases where things broke.

I've basically been been dodoed by

security advisories. So that's what I

did um and what I focused on. So far we

got 1,142

advisories. That's around 16.6 a day. 99

are critical. Um we published around 469

and we closed 60% of them. So these

numbers sound like absolutely

terrifying.

If you compare it for example to like

other large projects like the Linux

kernel gets like eight or nine a day. we

get like twice as much and curl so far

has 600 reports we have like twice as

much as curl.

So every time I I get a

security incident, the rule is the

higher the higher they screaming how

critical they are, the more likely it's

slop. Like we we I mean you've probably

also seen the news like we we we are

very fast moving into a world where

we have to change how we build software

because all these AI tools are getting

so good at identifying

even the most weird multi-chained

exploits and like we're gonna going to

break all the software that exists. I

give you an example like

uh Nvidia they

they launched Neimoclaw and Neimoclaw is

a a plug-in and a security layer for

open claw. You can put it in a sandbox.

I the keynote was on Monday. They

invited me on Sunday to like work with

them. I hooked it up to Codex security.

It found like five different ways how to

break out of the of their secure sandbox

within half an hour.

That's because like if you use that

product, you get access to the unnerved

model that is quite a bit smarter in

terms of cyber than what the public has

access. Exactly. Because it's dangerous.

But yeah um

also this whole industry those people

for them it's like credits right the

more the more issues they find the more

they seen so like openclaw was like the

insecure product that everybody tried to

break so literally like hundreds of

people firing up their clankers trying

to break open claw

um

the typical attack surface is like

remote code execution,

bypass approval, code injection, pass

traversal. Uh again sounds all very

dangerous

and I give you I give you one one

concrete example. Um

Gshjp.

This is about a this is a CVSS of 10. So

it's like the scariest thing that you

can possibly do.

It is an issue where if you

uh sync for example the iPhone app that

we haven't even shipped yet but is in

progress and you give it only read

permission then you could like break the

system to also get write permission.

So this this one was so critical that

the I know this one's actually different

one

in all in all practical ways

it is not even an incident because the

the the typical use cases you install it

on your machine

either in a cloud or if you have to on a

Mac mini I stopped fighting this I'm

just letting people have fun now

but in 99% 99% cases you'll either have

access to your gateway or you have not

access to the gateway. In in in my

defense, this was my mistake that I

tried to create a a more permissive

model. For example, if you have devices

that would target speech and then would

only like read certain things. So

there's like some use case where you

could like have a a reduced permission

system would make sense.

Um but nobody's even using that. But

this doesn't matter because the rules of

the of those how you create the CVSS

numbers don't contribute to that at all.

And I try to play by the rules. So it is

a 10 out of 10. And the world is going

crazy over incidents that in all

practical ways will not affect people.

There's some other stuff that does

affect people. Uh we have nation states

trying to like hack people. There was

like ghost claw which is like from

likely from North Korea which is

basically

confusing people with a different NBN

package and if you if you go to a wrong

website and you try to download it you

get like a a root kit. Um that's outside

of our control. This happens for other

people as well. Um,

also there's the Axios thing which funny

enough we are not using Axios

but we are using MS teams or Slack as a

dependency and they're using XIS and

they didn't pin us and of course uh

because that's how supply chain attacks

work we were also affected.

Yeah. How do you survive 1,142? I'm sure

it's 1,150.

Uh for a while I I I tried to handle a

loop by myself and which is absolutely

impossible.

So So the fastest way to get help was

like getting getting help from companies

um and Nvidia has been really amazing to

like give us some people that basically

work full-time going through the slop

and hardening the code base.

Oh, there's also one that is

okay.

That um

this is one of the anglers. The other

angle is like there's a lot of companies

that do fearongering and it's not just

companies, it's also universities. I

don't know if you've seen it. There was

like this um

paper who made the rounds agents of

chaos and they say oh it's it's about

agents in general but then there's four

pages that explain the open claw

architecture in utmost detail

but you know which page they didn't even

mention

a security page where we explain how you

should install it because then it

wouldn't be fun then it wouldn't be it

would be hard to make a good story. So

what they instead did is they ignored

all of the recommendations we do on

security. Recommendation is it's your

personal agent. Don't put it in a group

chat. If you put it in a group chat,

turn on sandboxing because if anyone can

talk to your agent, they can excfiltrate

anything that the agent can do, right?

So if it's a team agent, it should only

know what the team can know and not any

secret data. And you probably want to

like have it restricted. If it's your

personal agent, you should be the only

one being able to talk to you. But if

you don't play by these rules, you can

get some really fun interactions like,

"Hey, I can talk to your agent and it

can break your system." And then because

I I was I was grilling them a little bit

because I had some questions how to do

things. They told me, "Oh yeah, no, we

run it in pseudo mode because we wanted

the agent to be like maximum powerful."

So they actually fought the setup. It's

actually not easy to run it in pudo

mode. You have to change code. um

but they didn't mention it in the report

because again that wouldn't give them

cloud.

So yeah um my current frustration is

like there's like a whole industry that

try to put the project in negative

light. It's a nightmare.

It's insecure by default. It's

unacceptable.

Um

and meanwhile a lot of people love it

and people who actually

read the security docs understand it can

use it just fine. One example that I

found particularly great is u we had one

remote one rce that panicked Belgium.

So the Belgium cyber security did a

release uh about a remote execution

environment

and the whole bug was

a feature where a malicious website

could create a link

that would

trigger the gateway and then forward

your gateway token. Now if you use the

setup that is the default and that is

recommended the gateway token is local

only or if you have to it's in your

private network no external website can

actually access it. If you

actively fight the setup and for example

use cloud code to set it up without

reading, you might be able to get this

setup working.

But again,

that's not anything what's said on the

website.

So to be very honest, yes, there's

absolutely

uh risk. the the the big risk is the the

basically the legal trifecta. You know,

any any agentic system that has access

to your data,

has access to untrusted content and the

ability to communicate is something

that's potentially at risk. That's not

anything special to OpenClaw. It's like

any any agent any power agent system has

a problem. The more the more powerful

you make it, the more it can do for you,

but the more you also have to understand

what it does. So this is like the the

main issue

>> but people not talk about this. Yeah.

And then also

um

some part about maintaining.

So

the problem is like if you get all those

security advisories,

you know that most of them are created

with agents, but you still have to use

your brain to actually read it because

we're not at the point where you can

fully trust or I'm not at the point

where I I can just fully trust that the

agent will figure it out. So it is a

huge burden on on time and you never

know. I mean sometimes you can you can

often guess you know anytime the reput

is too nice or like someone apologizes

that's very likely AI because usually

people in security don't apologize. Um

but it is a huge problem and it's

something that I see more and more open

source projects complaining about or

like breaking. Um,

some are very public about it like

ffmpeg.

Usually you get the report. It's very

rare that you actually get a report and

a fix. If you get a report and a fix,

it's usually a very bad fix. If you rush

it, as I sometimes did in the beginning

because I was overload, you will very

certainly break your product.

[clears throat] Yeah. So this is

something that's just very difficult to

pull up only with volunteers. So we so

what are we working on?

Number one is

I

people say like open AI bought open claw

that's not the truth. they might bought

my soul.md

um but they very much understand that in

order for what the world needs is like

more people that play with AI to like

understand what AI can do to both

understand the risk and also the

possibilities they understand that if

you or like someone who never played

with never used AI suddenly is at home

and uses openclaw they'll come to work

and they will ask why don't we have AI

at work so they very much understand

that like supporting this project is

very useful and in order for that

project to be successful cannot be under

one company. Therefore, I'm kind of

building Switzerland with the open glove

foundation and I have Dave was helping

me with it. Um, it's almost done. The

last thing that's keeping us going is

like the American bank system which is a

little bit slow and very confused when

you're not American.

Um, it's inspired by what Ghosti did.

And this will actually then help us to

hire full-time people to both keep up

the pace, improve the quality, and free

up some of my time that I can work on on

cool stuff again.

And that's my little update on State of

the Claw. I'll be around later for like

a Q&A. Thank you for listening.

[applause]

Okay,

great. Thank you for the whoop. Love the

whoop. Um, so excellent. Okay, you've

chosen the claw uh track to get started

on for our our breakouts and uh uh it's

going to be great. I think it's going to

be it's going to be a good session. Um

we are going to be hearing about a bunch

of different things uh related to uh

openclaw and just personal AI assistance

in general. There's some open claw

contributors, openclaw maintainers, uh

um uh open claw competitors, uh and open

claw creators, uh going to be here on

the stage. Um we're actually going to uh

be taking this through until the lunch

break. Um oh, there we go. We can see up

there. So, it's about an hour and a half

of uh of sessions, slightly shorter

sessions than uh than earlier, I think.

Um but we're going to be starting with

uh an AMA. came in. You saw Peter

earlier on, but you're going to get a

chance to ask questions and there's

going to be a bit of a conversation uh

with Peter and Swix. So, I think to get

us started, I will simply invite Swix up

who will kick things off. So, uh please

welcome him to the stage. Swix, come on

up. Swix.

[applause]

>> All right.

>> Actually, you can just go together.

>> You can come out together. There's no

secret. Peter, welcome. Everybody there

is

>> [applause]

>> Okay, so the deal for this is meant to

be an AMA. Uh the the main idea is that

I've run six of these AI engineers and

whenever we have some big maintainer,

big VIP, we only give them a talk, but

actually you guys have questions that

you want to ask. Uh so uh we wanted to

sort of create that opportunity. So you

can you can submit there. I'm going to

moderate uh and and all that. Uh the

spicy one I'm just going to start off

with. Pete just quote uh quote tweeted

uh me and saying send all your questions

about closed claw right uh [laughter]

I think uh people have a lot of

questions about um the future of

openclaw at openai uh and uh I wanted to

give you the space what what is the what

are people saying about closed claw and

then what is your response

>> I didn't even think about it was like it

came up when when I decided to go to to

openi And

I think I think people have a point that

open air wasn't always

amazing with open source. And I I think

a lot changed like Codex is open source

now. They released Symfony which is a

really cool orchestration layer. So like

like they're really leaning in and

understanding open source now. They

understand that open cloud needs to stay

open work with any model be it be it one

of the the big companies or being a

local model um everybody in the industry

wins if more people spend time with AI

you know if if I if I think AI is

something scary and then suddenly I I I

play with open claw and suddenly it's

like fun and weird and then I come to

work and there's no like I don't have AI

tools at work. I'm going to get to my

boss and say why the f do we not have AI

at work and and then like those

companies would probably not run open

claw but we want something that's like

hosted and managed and and then somebody

can can make a sale. So they they're

like very much on board. They provide me

with resources. Um, actually it's me

like I could get a lot more people from

OpenAI to help with the project, but

that would just make a picture that they

could have taken over the project and I

don't want that. So I I I brought in

people from Nvidia, we have someone from

Microsoft, from Telegram, someone from

Salesforce of all the companies. So So

shout out actually there's cool people

at Slack. So we have someone that

maintains the Slack plugin. Now I

brought Tensent on board, Bite Dance. We

talked to Alibaba, Miniax, Kimi, like

all the all the model providers. They're

like very much on board. Um, Nvidia has

been immensely helpful. They

I think I one of the coolest companies

in terms of here's some engineers who

actually like just hire agency and just

do things.

>> Yeah. Uh and now that I have all the

other companies, I'm also bringing a few

people in from OpenAI to to help

maintain the project because it's I mean

software is just like changing that the

the pace at which this project operates

is is insane. You kind of like you need

an army. Um and I'm working on that.

>> You have an army. Uh and but but you

know even the contributor chart that you

showed uh shows that it's hard to get

quality contributors to stick around.

people keep hiring your maintainers and

then you have to find new ones.

[laughter]

Um so there's a lot of questions about

local models and open models. Uh you

know like not every part of the stack is

open. There's many models where you

don't have access to the models and and

you know there's sort of weird

restrictions. Um how important is open

and local models to the future openclaw?

I mean part of part of what what

motivated me to build open claw is you

see all these large companies and then

they have connectors to my Gmail and

then my my email is hosted somewhere

then this company has full access to my

email and then I can get a little bit

down there like it's much more exciting

to me if I have all my data actually

under my control and I and like a little

bit of it goes up there if I need the

top tier token.

>> Yeah. and like a second kind of

hierarchy of uh fallback models.

>> Yeah, you want to I mean I'm I'm

European at heart. You want to own your

data, you know. So so so and nobody

built it. So for me that was very

attractive and also the the fact that

you know if if you're a startup you want

to connect to Gmail, it takes like half

a year and it's like a very very

difficult process. But if I'm a consumer

my clanker can click on any website and

it happily clicks on I'm not a bot. If

you have to give me the data somehow, if

you can if you give me the data, my my

agent is able to get the data. So you

can work around a lot of those those

silos those big companies are building

and ultimately you can do much cooler

automation use cases that large

companies can never do.

>> So it's it's like

it's a little bit the the hacker way.

>> Yeah. And um any indications from the

open team on GBTOSS? Is that continu

continuing to be a stream of work that

uh will be aligned with open claw or or

is that like separate?

>> I'm not I'm not in a position to give

yeah

>> give you insights on that just that

um part of what opencloud triggered is

that like more people in the company are

getting excited about open source. Um,

and I I love that that OpenAI is moving

more into the open direction. Again, if

you compare it to some other top tier

labs that start with an A, uh, that very

much will sue you if you if you leak any

of their source um, or block you if you

are too successful. I I I think Open is

on a good direction.

>> Yeah. Okay. I want to highlight this

question. Um, people love hearing about

your coding workflow. I think right by

now your idea of um uh the prompt

request rather than the pull request is

is very well socialized and also you've

been shocking people with just how

you're spending tokens at OpenAI.

[laughter]

Uh so basically uh the people want to

know how you ship and what do you do

about agent waiting times like why is

you know you're spinning out so many

agents. I

>> I know like I I never imagined that this

one picture of me would blow up so much.

>> Yeah. actually

>> uh give give some numbers just just to

align people. I I think and there's

times where I was running almost 10

sessions at the same time especially

when I used codeex with 50 51 it was

quite slow I think now I have to say we

it's still weird we made improvements

they both make it faster and then

there's also fast mode so by now my

typical workflow is

maybe half of that maybe five six

windows instead of double just because

each loop is faster and like the

area of work I sync in workers is pretty

much the same. So I I don't have to use

split screen so much anymore and I think

we're going to move into a future where

um

token will be will be faster

[clears throat] and faster. So at some

point like this is not natural that you

work on on six things at the same time.

Um

but it's basically a workaround until

until faster. Yeah. Uh, one of my, uh,

interesting things of putting you next

to Ryan was to see how the two of you

kind of approach uh, token maxing.

Basically, I'm curious what you think

about the the complete dark factory

approach, right? That uh, you don't even

review code that goes in.

I think that's more and more doable.

But also, you know, when I when I

dark factory in a way also means I come

up with everything I want to build in

the beginning and I just don't think you

can build good software in that way.

Like

the way to the mountain is usually never

a straight line. It is it is it is very

curved. Sometimes you go a little bit

off track and then you you see something

new that inspires you. You find like

shortcuts. Um

once you're at the top you you you can

find the optimal path but you never walk

like this. So at the same time you will

the first idea that you have about your

project is very unlikely going to be the

final project. But if I if I suddenly

use the waterfall model again that will

be the final project. For me that

doesn't work for me. Like I I build

steps I play with it. I see how it

feels. I get new ideas, my prompts

change. So to me, it's a very iterative

approach. So I don't see how you could

fully automate that. You can definitely

build pipelines for certain things.

>> Yeah.

>> But even even for PRs, you don't just

want to build a pipeline that just

merges PRs because a lot of them just

don't make sense, you know, like people

people will pull your product into all

kind of directions. But if you automate

that, the AI will very unlikely know

what's the right direction. You can

guide it. I have like a vision document

that I tried some of that but

the bottleneck is still sinking and like

having taste. [laughter]

Yeah, taste is very important. Uh how do

you define taste? This is something that

in my conversations with people everyone

understands taste is the moat but nobody

agrees on what taste good taste is. So

I'm just curious to hear yours. I think

in this day and age is like

the very low level of taste if if it

doesn't stink like AI and you know

exactly what I mean you know if if

something is just so writing style

personality

>> also also also UI by now you've seen so

many so much aentic built UI that you

immediately know if it's AI

>> yeah if it has the the color border on

the left right

>> yeah I mean for a while it was like the

purple gradient but much more so I I

feel It's it's like a feeling the same

as you can identify AI written slop

right away.

>> Yeah.

>> Um that's why I say it's a smell. Like

even if you can pinpoint this, you will

know. So So that's probably the lowest

the lowest characterization of taste.

And and then going higher up because now

so much of software is is automatable.

There's actually much more time you can

spend on like the little details. I

don't know, you know, like like just

when you when you when you when you run

open claw, you get like a little message

uh that sometimes roasts people.

Those are like the delightful details I

think that

>> you'll just not get if you prompt in a

high level.

>> Yeah. One one of my favorite tastes of

yours is how you you uh really put a lot

of work into your soul soulm and you uh

you know open source your approach and I

don't think people worked on enough soul

until until you came along. So I think

that's really interesting. Uh my I I I

have a podcast I haven't done yet. I

haven't released yet with uh Mikuel

Parakin, who was the CTO of Shopify now,

but he was the uh guy leading Bing where

Sydney was uh the original sort of

unaligned chatbot [laughter] that

emerged. Uh but I think people really

have fun when when your soul your

chatbot has personality. Your clanker uh

you know has different obsessions.

>> Well, it wasn't because it the world

changed, right? We had we had chat GBD

in 2023 and 4 and it was basically

us having AI without understanding what

AI can do. So we rebuilt a Google so you

have like a search field and like you

get a response and you you don't expect

Google to have a personality.

>> Yeah. But now that we moved more towards

agents, like if if I I didn't think

about in the beginning WhatsApp relay

and I just hooked it up to cloud code.

Um and then I when I was on WhatsApp, I

noticed that it doesn't feel quite

right. Like even even though like cloud

code already has some personality, it

didn't really fit how people would write

to you on WhatsApp. So that that's how

my whole iteration started was like uh

this again it's about taste, right? It

doesn't feel quite right. It's like too

wordy. It uses too many dots. It it it

my friends text different. And then

that's how I started working. They say,

"No, this isn't like try to write more

like a human." [laughter]

>> Uh yeah, I I actually run a writing

>> like a lobster.

>> Uh like a lobster. Yes. Um

uh you know the one of my favorite

quotes of yours is uh madness with a

touch of sci science fiction. Yeah.

Right. Like that this is how you run

>> um uh AI projects. And I think

>> not all the art projects, but

specifically

something like OpenClaw would have never

been able, it would not have come out of

an American company just because it

would have been killed in legal long

before it would have been released

because it just has some problems that

we haven't really solved as an industry

yet.

>> Yeah.

>> But now we have some mitigations and

it's getting better. The models are

getting a lot better. But I don't see

how any of the big labs could have

released that. You know, it would be too

much push back. Oh, and like not enough

market proof that this is what people

want.

>> Yeah.

>> So like it had to be done by someone

>> like

>> outside. Yeah. That that that

>> sitting

>> like literally like when I when I built

it in the very beginning, I was like,

"Oh, what's the worst that can happen?"

like it could exfiltrate my token,

my emails. Yeah, nothing is nothing

nothing's in there that would like

completely kill me. You could like

upload some of my pictures. I was like,

yeah, I guess the worst are already

online if you use Grinder. Um,

[laughter]

so it was like it was like,

okay, I can live with that risk. It will

be uncomfortable, but it's like it's

manageable.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, if your company is a different it

requires a little different approach.

>> Yeah. By the way, uh his Instagram

account, good follow under

underfollowed.

[laughter]

It's also it's also has some good stuff.

Um okay. Uh you were talking about

WhatsApp, talking about Telegram. A lot

of these text apps. Um uh text apps are

good. People are also looking for like

the next form factor. People want like

the maybe the the glasses, the earbuds.

What What is your sort of wish list in

terms of having agents in your life?

I started on that actually already, but

then I was just getting bogged down by

all the people using it and just like

the daily grind.

But if you're at home, I want to be in

any room and you know at Star Trek when

you can when you say computer

I I I want to like talk to my agent

wherever I am and it should just be able

to like respond to me. It should know

where I am. I have like little iPads in

every room and and my agent can use the

canvas feature and project stuff on

those iPads. So like if I ask a question

that that is like easier to be to be

answered by also showing me something

like it could use like the nearest

display because it's aware of where I

am. So the phone is just a very

convenient input point but I kind of

want to like talk to it from anywhere.

Yeah.

>> Like yeah if I'm around and I have

glasses I should just like be able to

like listen in and like project

something on me.

>> Um

>> but just ubicular follow you

>> I think yeah once we have

>> really smart home. Yeah,

>> like agents on your phone, but really

you want ubiquitous agents and then you

want maybe you will have your your your

uppercase open claw your private agent

at work. You might have your I don't

know lowerase openi claw

and then

that claw should be able to like talk to

your personal claw uh in a way that both

your company and you are comfortable

with. So that's kind of like the future

where we need to work out.

>> Yeah. Uh one of uh I just

[clears throat] did a podcast with Maran

Dre who's a huge fan uh and and also uh

have conversations with Andre Karpathy.

Both of these guys are running OpenCloud

to run their house. And I think OpenClaw

for homes is like a kind of underrated,

but like people are really discovering

it. And my funniest sort of irony is

that is it's only possible because the

internet of means that most smart

devices are terrible in security, which

means Open Core can run them.

>> Oh, it's going to be able to work so

much better in in a few months when the

models are getting really bad.

[laughter]

>> Yeah, they're very good. Um, okay. One

security question. uh about prompt

injection. How do you want to solve

prompt injection or what what uh ways in

which uh have you been thinking about

the prompt injection problem?

Probably not enough yet. On the other

hand, like the the the front end models

are really quite good at detecting all

the

all the cases where like just stuff

randomly comes in from a website or an

email is usually not a problem anymore.

You mark as untrusted content, very hard

to excfiltrate you from that. If if I

have unlimited access to your claw and

can bombard it with stuff, then there's

still a chance.

>> Then then there's still a chance. But

like for one of things,

>> it's no longer the biggest problem. If

you use that's also why why you know

that this is probably the angle where

like some people say, "Oh, Peter doesn't

like local models." But then I see like

people running like a 20 uh billion

parameter model that just does whatever

you tell it and and it's not trained to

have any defenses at all. That's still

problematic. If you run that and then

you use a web browser or email um would

worry me. That's why that's why OpenClow

warns you if you use a small model. And

I know people spin the whole thing like

we hate model. I I love I love I love

that it we support everything, but like

you have to

steer

the regular user a little bit into a

direction to make it harder for them to

shoot themselves in the foot.

>> Um

yeah, there there is some ideas for

problem injection. It's

[snorts]

>> just a little bit away. I haven't

announced that.

>> I think Simon Willis has been working a

lot on on this. is I mean he coined the

term prompt injection and the sort of

dual LLM approach seems smart uh and I'm

I'm not smart enough to figure out all

the ways that which it can be attacked

like at at some point trust just has to

be a thing right um and uh and I pro

something interesting I found out from

talking with Vincent who's speaking next

is that you guys had to implement the

same trust system that Toby Luca had to

implement which is uh you build

reputation over time and things with

more trust uh gets more privileged

access, right? And I think that that

makes sense.

>> That's part of the story.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um okay, so uh some

more broader questions. What cool

projects would you like to work on once

you have more free time?

>> I mean, I wanted to work on dreaming and

know like my maintenance worked on

dreaming while I I'm there like

>> while you were dreaming.

>> Uh so shift it, right?

>> Yes. What what is dreaming? Uh it's like

a way to reconcile memories and like

kind of create a little bit like like a

dream log go through like your session

logs. Um

>> we we found out from the enthropic

source code leak that they also working

on dreaming, right?

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean there's

I'm pretty sure there's like more

companies working on that. But think a

little bit like how do we learn as

humans? You you experience a lot of

things during the day and then you sleep

and and in sleep your your brain does

like a garbage collect

converts some me some

local locally stored memories into

long-term storage and like drops others

and that that's similar ideas that I

think could also be very useful for

agents. Um and then like what we shipped

on dreaming is like the first little

step in that direction.

>> Yeah. It's related to the wiki uh thing

that Andre has been talking about where

you sort of collect everything into a

>> wiki is is more memory but like

everything kind of blends a little bit

together. Um that the beauty the beauty

of open claw is that we can just try

stuff you know like like everything what

we worked on for the last months or so

is that

in the beginning it was a big spaghetti

codebased mess and now like everything

everything is an extension a plug-in. So

you can replace memory, you can add the

wicki, you can add dreaming, you can add

I don't know your your your whatever

crazy idea you have and just make it

your own. You don't have to send

everything to a pull request because

we're still completely overloaded on

those. But it's it's more like Linux

where you just can install your own

parts.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh you are building what

a lot of people think uh is the most

consequential open source since Linux

which I don't know how do you deal with

that? How do you deal with the the the

fame what is a day in your life uh as as

the BDFL effectively of something like

this?

>> What's my Well, there's still a lot of

coding. There's also a lot of

>> by the way in in between sessions he was

coding [laughter]

back there.

>> Yeah. They get tokenized. You have to

like something has to be right.

>> You have to push the agents, right?

>> Yeah. Um

where it shifted a little bit now it's a

lot more a lot more talking and

steering people in the right direction

like because there's a lot of things

that we already learned at Open Claw. So

like part of my role at OpenI is like to

like help them not make the same

mistakes again. Um

and then and then open claw is like try

out new things that seem exciting and

some might work and some might not work.

Enable enable companies to like build

their own claw without having to fork

away but like making everything more

more customizable. Um yeah and sometimes

I sleep sometimes you sleep. Okay great.

Uh I think that maybe this is the last

good closing questions. Uh, what skills

do you want humans and engineers in

particular to focus on developing in the

age of AI?

>> Taste was a big one, but I already

mentioned that

system design is still very important.

>> Yes, you we talked about this in San

Francisco. Yeah,

>> if you don't think about that, you will

eventually swipe yourself into a corner,

right? Just by defining the boundaries

like the funny thing is like everything

is in the clanker but you still need to

ask the right questions otherwise

that makes the difference of like good

code that comes out or like really bad

code that comes out and that's still

where like all the knowledge you have

like how you build software you can

apply to steer the agent into into

something that is not slop.

>> Yeah. And then I think I think a skill

that is becoming more and more important

is saying no.

And and and that's something I had to

learn as well because

even the wildest idea is just just a

prompt away.

And usually this one idea is never the

problem but like this idea and this idea

and this idea and this idea and then how

all of that fits together that's the

problem.

>> Yes. So like

I think we're still bottlenecked on

syncing and about like big picture

syncing because imagine the world from

your clanker like you're being thrown

into a code base. You might have an

outdated agent.md file, but you

basically don't know what DF this is and

you like then like you tell me, hey, add

user profiles and you like somehow add

user profiles and connect it to the two

things you see, but you didn't see the

whole system, right? And then that's

where a lot of those localized solutions

comes where like your project has like

vS and and it's our job to like help the

agent do its best work by like providing

them with like hints. Hey, you want to

consider this? You want to look there?

How would this interplay with this? And

then and then ultimately you get like a

much a system that actually is

maintainable.

>> Yeah. Um well, thank you for maintaining

one of the most important software of

all time and thank you for spending time

with us.

>> Thanks for having me. [applause]

>> Hopefully you stick around and answer

questions. Thank you.

>> All right.

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