Epste and Trump were close. Sorry,

Donald. Just a fact. And when Elon Musk

tweets Trump's on the list and a few

days later, there is no list. It begs

questions. So, they dangled this in

order to get votes. And they lie to

people. And we're only 6 months in. And

the vandalization that he's done pushing

the boundaries on the rule of law. This

is darkness.

>> Really? Because I hear this every

election cycle.

>> No, it's a dangerous game. And America

is struggling and I really worry about

our democracy. But Trump is likely to

lose power unless they can rig the game.

>> Governor Gavin Newsome. Are you going to

try and become the next president of the

United States?

>> Governor of California.

>> Gavin Newsome.

>> Gavin Newsome.

>> Who is the real Gavin Newsome?

>> I think most people see me as sort of,

you know, slick guy. Grew up with a

trust fund, but I didn't come from any

wealth. Like my mom was a single mom.

She was working two, three jobs. She ran

out of her own bedroom. Sacrificed

everything for two kids. And I was going

nowhere academically, but she never gave

up on me.

>> And as your sort of political career

starts to accelerate, she was diagnosed

with breast cancer.

>> Yeah. And she was in so much pain,

suffering. She's going to do an assisted

suicide.

And uh I was holding her hand. She's and

her last breath. But look, everything

that finds the best of me, grit, hard

work is reflected in her. And that led

to me sitting here with you as governor

of California in politics.

>> He's an incompetent governor. Look at

the job he's doing. He's a stone cold

liar.

>> There's always conflict between you and

Trump.

>> I think he enjoys sparring with me. I

know he thrives on it, but I'd be lying

if I didn't say it. Every time I have a

conversation, it's unbelievably cordial.

He says, "You need anything, call me."

Including the night before he quote

unquote federalized the National Guard,

but then calls me new.

>> He wants to take me out.

>> Do you think he's going to try and stay

in power? So, I don't think I'm

exaggerating, but when people close to

Donald Trump send the governor of

California, "Hey,

they're not around."

I see messages all the time in the

comment section that some of you didn't

realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

could do me a favor and double check if

you're a subscriber to this channel,

that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing

that anybody that watches this show

frequently can do to help us here to

keep everything going in this show in

the trajectory it's on. So, please do

double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange

way you are you're part of our history

and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank

you

Governor Gavin Newsome.

Can you quite believe your life?

You're you're running one of the most

consequential states in America,

arguably the most consequential state in

America, but also I I read that it's the

fourth highest GDP in the world now.

>> In the world,

it's always in the headlines. There's

always conflict between you and Trump. I

just wanted to start with this question,

like, can you believe your life?

>> If you talk to my 10-year-old self, this

is impossible. Could have even dreamt

it. I don't know if it was a dream or a

nightmare at 10.

>> I mean, I'm not sure this is what I

wanted at 10. I'm not sure I wanted this

at 20 or even 30. And I know you're

going to continue to shoulder roll what

I'm going to say, but many of the book

makers, the odds have you as being the

next president of the United States in

2028.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm going to throw that. I know you're

going to shoulder roll it and tell me

California.

>> Well, that's surreal. I mean, that's

ridic I mean, that's something that even

in those higher moments, not low

moments, where I may have had a little

bit more confidence, million years would

never have imagined that I would be at

this moment. And yeah, that's that

creates a lot of humility of a lot of

grace around that. I mean, the idea that

that's you're even in the conversation.

I know that sounds wrote and cliched,

little humble brag.

>> The fact that I'm in the conversation

>> is extraordinary. Is it a reality? I

don't know. I mean, that's that's fate

will determine.

>> I I I totally understand that. But I but

I want to just get clear on one thing

which is you would be honored to play

the role as president of the United

States if and when that opportunity

called or presented itself.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I don't know about

playing the role, but if it if it, you

know, if the moment meets you and you

meet the moment, if you can express with

congruency the why and you can do it

without the pretense and the you could

do it with authenticity and you truly

believe that you add value

>> against others that may be lined up.

>> Um, yeah, but you know, I won't go

through the motion. I don't need to be

something to do something. Yeah. For me,

it's it's it's a it's you've got to I

mean, I got to feel it. It's got to be

in my my core, my soul. It's got to be a

burning need and desire to be

accountable and to to reflect the moment

and reflect the aspirations and the

dreams of of millions and millions of

people and and to have enough confidence

uh that you feel you can deliver in that

respect.

>> Do you think you could deliver in that

respect?

>> I I you know, increasingly, which is

strange. I wouldn't been I don't know

that I could have said that a few years

ago. I mean that I feel like things for

me have radically changed and we can get

into why. I mean I've gone through

they're they're working on the seventh

recall against me right now. I went

through a recall process. I've been on

the receiving end of a national effort

to you know try to do everything to

undermine what I'm doing and and going

up against Trump and Trumpism and and

the surround sound and these propaganda

networks 247. I'm I'm more resolved now.

I mean in intense way ways I I'm I'm

discovering myself in this process. I'm

in the other side of where I ever

expected to be even a year ago. And uh I

feel deeply accountable and deeply

responsible and deeply motivated. I

don't know where that takes me, but I

know I have a responsibility over the

next 18 months and I'm going to run the

110 yard dash. I'm not going to I'm not

going to run the 90 yard dash on the way

out of here. And so that's that's what I

know. I got a sell by date and I'm going

to put everything on the line. Let's get

into it then in terms of your early

context in your childhood because I

think

>> you have to understand that to

understand the person and the

complexities of the person that I'm sat

in front of today. So can you give me

the specifics of your earliest context?

>> You know it's it you know I think shaped

like so many people watching I mean how

many of us over half of us have similar

experiences of uh you know 19-year-old

who's pregnant uh with her firstborn me

and a few years later she's on her own

with two kids. Uh she came from no

wealth, no real privilege. Her father

committed suicide, was a prisoner of war

coming out of uh World War II. She

struggled with her own identity, her own

confidence. Uh she struggled raising two

kids. Uh my father who left us but not

in disgrace. Uh who was an extraordinary

figure but an elusive figure growing up

and sort of marked so much of my early

childhood as sort of longing trying to

connect. But the the anchor, the rock

was this rockstar single mom and and

everything that defines the best of me

and the worst of me. This notion of

grit, hard work, you got to manifest.

Nothing's going to be handed to you. Um

is reflected in her. At the same time, a

lot of the anxiety and and fear uh sense

of, you know, I mean, sometimes

loneliness. I mean, she was a very

lonely person. Yeah. Tessa passed away

almost two decades ago. And uh I'm I'm

now older than she was when she passed

away. And you know, I just I never fully

appreciated her to the degree I do now

as a father, uh, as a mother struggling

with not only herself, just trying to be

a good mother, trying to have a career,

a life, but also struggling to support

her kids and support a kid, in this case

me, who was struggling in every way,

particularly with pretty severe learning

disabilities, with self-esteem, and um,

and never fully appreciated ated her

sacrifice.

>> Give me the color on the learning

disabilities because someone looks at

you, someone so accomplished in both

business and in politics. And you say

that you had learning difficulties as a

child.

>> I mean, I was I was a guy in the back of

of the class. I was a guy with the head

down. I was a guy, you know, soaking

wet, sweating. I was a guy shaking

underneath, not physically shaking. Um,

desperate not to be called on in the

class. I'm someone who still can't read

a speech. You're in the wrong business.

I think politics. You can't read a

speech. Could do a teleprompter, but

you'll never see me. You haven't seen me

go up and down looking at a speech. I

can't still struggle to read. If I read,

I have to underline everything. I have

to uh organize uh everything through not

only underlining, highlighting, then I

go back and reread what I underlined in

order to understand it. Once I

understand it, boy, I understand it. I

mean, then it's becomes, you know, part

of who I am, which is the other side of

dyslexia. But I, you know, was I was a

guy that was was going nowhere

academically. You know, I was just I was

that kid. And I had a sister that was

the exact opposite. You know, well, I'm

getting my 960 in American SAT. She was

getting 1380. It was easy for her. Uh,

everything was easy for her. And so that

contrast and that anxiety that came from

that contrast and the struggle that my

mom had of trying to sort of work with

me work and you know that was uh that

marked so much of you know my memories

and decades of my life

>> and at that early age sub 10 what did

you think of yourself what was your

self-perception self-image

>> the thing that you know I don't think

I've shared uh is a thing that is most

indelible in my life when my mother in

struggling with me and I'll never forget

it and I recall if I responded to her at

the time, but it's marked half a century

of my life when she said because I

couldn't I was just I was giving up. I

couldn't read this chapter, whatever it

was. She said it's okay to be average

like

and I think about that all the time,

man. I mean, and and I forgive her. I

thank for that. I think cuz she was

struggling with me. But that's a hell of

a thing to say to a kid. And I think she

was just saying it's okay. You don't

have to be your sister. You're not your

dad. You know, you never be that person.

I loved her deeply and I'm here because

of her. But that shapes a lot of the

early that that person that you know and

it's shaped who I've become because I've

done everything in my power to to

overcompensate for the struggle

>> and for that mindset where I could have

easily believed that and I could have

easily become that.

>> In terms of money in the home, what I

sometimes think of when I think about my

own childhood, money was almost this

other person. You know, it's funny. We

talk about attachment styles and we say

some people have like this avoidant

attachment style, this anxious

attachment style, this secure attachment

style. And I think of money in the same

way. It it it's in homes. It's a person.

Sometimes it's distant and never there.

Sometimes it's causing the argument.

>> What was money in your household? Like

what was the relationship that you'd

formed with it? Well, I had interesting

experience with with money because we

didn't come from any wealth. But my

father uh his relationships were

attached to extraordinary wealth,

abundance of wealth. His closest friends

in the world were some of the richest

families in the world. Um and he while

he didn't have himself tremendous amount

of wealth, he led a very wealthy

lifestyle. Meanwhile, my mom and I and

my sister were there uh doing, you know,

our Swanson's um you know, frozen food.

We're doing our craft macaroni and

cheese. We're doing our you know, but

money was always the source of the

stress cuz he didn't have much to give

her. She didn't have much period. So,

she was working two, three jobs. And

when I say two, three jobs, when I say

that, I mean literally two, three jobs.

We had guests always living at the

house. I didn't understand what guests

living at the house mean. She moved out

of her own bedroom to rent out the

bedroom. Um, if you wanted something,

had a paper route, worked for Jeff Hicks

Construction. If you want a basketball

hoop, you're gonna have to work for it.

There was nothing handed, nothing given.

And so, she was grinding. She's working

in part-time waitress. I got in the

restaurant business. I was a bus boy.

There's some moments that changed my

life there that I'll never ever ever

ever forget. And so money was a source

of stress but also some evil in the

context of too much and seen the

abundance with people I knew with trust

funds with the relationship to money

where they lost their motivation. They

lost their purpose, their meaning, their

mission. And so when I started getting a

business, it was never about making

money. It was about making a difference.

It was about building something, a

brand. It was about adding some value.

And that pursuit I think created a

mindset where the businesses actually

really thrived because it wasn't about

the money. It was about something more

important. It was bigger than that. And

and so my relationship to money in that

respect really became a gift, a guide in

terms of my entrepreneurial uh pursuits.

Dyslexia certainly was the greatest gift

in relationship to the entrepreneurial

suits. And that led to this led to me

sitting here with you as governor of

California in politics.

>> And when did you find out you had

dyslexia? cuz I I read that your mother

>> she didn't she didn't tell me and I I

wonder I I think about this cuz I've got

a couple kids that are struggling and

and uh we made the mistake with one of

them to tell him yeah I think you got

and now he uses as a crutch and she

never wanted it as a crutch. She never

told me. She said I found out about I

was home early one day came back from

school and I I don't know why I ended up

in her room and I'm looking she's got a

little desk and there's a file open and

I'm like flicking through files and then

I saw the word dyslexia. I'm like, "The

hell is this?" And I remember she got

home. I said, "Mom, what is this?" And

she goes, "Put that away." I'm like,

"What? What is it?" She goes, "No." I

And we had this conversation. She said,

"I didn't really want to talk to you

about it. You've been struggling with I

said, I know I can't read and you know,

stupid, mom." I said, "No, you're not

stupid. We're working through all that."

And she just didn't want to give create

the stigma. She didn't want me to use it

as a crutch, as an excuse, I think. And

I'm angry back to the sort of you know

dialect in my own brain about good bad

um I appreciated that because it was an

excuse not a victim decisions not

conditions term our fate and future this

notion u that we can shape things that I

don't that I wasn't stigmatized in that

respect so I can make excuses around it

I had to work around it I had to work

through it and I think that was the path

she she chose and and I'm many ways

grateful that she

Were you bullied by other children?

>> Yeah, we had uh Baltimore Street. I told

the president this too.

Speaking of Trump, uh he he we were

talking a few weeks ago and he goes,

"Hey, this new scum thing, you know,

because he calls me new scum, Gavin

Newskum." He goes, "Pretty original,

right?" I said, "It's not, Mr.

President, it's not particularly

original."

And he goes, "What do you mean? What do

you mean?" I said, "Well, there were

there was the bully on Baltimore Street

uh in Cordom Madera, California used to

call me new scum." He goes, "Ah, hey,

well, you know what?" Yeah. I mean, he

was 7, eight or nine. You're 79, Mr.

President. I told him that, too. And he

moved immediately off on another topic.

Uh, yeah. So, we, you know, I was I was

the bold cut guy. The hair, you know,

the Dutch boy look, you know, you

remember I don't know if you remember

the old Dutch boy stuff. U sort of

American iconic American brand. Uh, and

and uh and it was easy to see why I

might have been bullied.

>> I've got a picture here. If you look

>> Oh, look at me back at uh Isn't that

great? So, you get the haircut. You get

the vibe. This is uh this is my father

trying to insert. So, Irish Catholic

family. My dad went to Catholic schools

and so by definition, I went to Catholic

school. My mother who loved the sailor

outfits, kneeh high black socks. Uh

yeah, you're likely to get bullied going

on the bus.

>> It's not the best cut, but we've all

we've all had we've all been on a

journey with our haircuts.

>> It's good when I hear your story and the

context you grew up in with with your

mother, with the bullying, with the

challenges at school, um with the dad

that's away and I know the stats around

young boys that grow up in particular

that don't have a father figure in at

home. That for me that's a perfect

recipe for like small tea, maybe big tea

trauma in some capacity. Later in your

life, you talked about having

challenges with alcohol.

>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know.

>> And I wondered if that if that that

picture that's part of the same picture,

which is putting the mask on, various

forms of escapism.

>> Yeah. No, 100%. Well, look, I mean, my

my my grandfather that took his life was

was an alcoholic.

>> Um, and my mother struggled a little bit

and it was more self-medicating for me.

I started discovering that as well. Of

course, look, I got in the wine

business. Yeah.

>> So I need attracted to the business side

of it. Opened a wine store right out of

college. Opened a number of restaurants.

Had seven or eight restaurants. Have

four wineries as I speak today. So wine

became ubiquous in my life. Is also my

connection back to my dad which is a

whole another journey.

>> And you started that business in 1992

which was the year I was born. And as I

as I

>> rubbing it in as I sit here 32 years

later the business still exists. You've

placed it into a trust.

>> It still exists. and uh grew about there

were 22 or four businesses at peak about

a thousand employees at peak came from

that one business I was the only

full-time employee for almost two years

yeah I mean I'll tell you just the

greatest training for politics and life

just opening your own business small

business and uh those were some special

days and went from that to a restaurant

up the block a few years later a hotel a

winery now four wineries uh we had five

or six restaurant uh hotels and nine

restaurants at peak and businesses are

still around.

>> I was reading that you had this sort of

scheme where you gave employees $500

for a magical moment award.

>> Well, it was a failure award.

>> A failure award.

>> And then it became my sister took over

because I I got into politics and uh she

said, "I don't like this failure

framework." I said, "Well, it's the I

love failure. I'm good at it. Dyslexics

are the best at it. I mean, there's

nothing linear about our lives. It's

fail forward fast, miss 100% of shots

you don't take." So you were giving

employees $500 to if they failed.

>> Yeah, I had a great just a a very brief

example. I So I had a little hotel up in

[ __ ] Valley, Lake Tahoe area and a lot

of mosquitoes during the summer months.

It's an old motel built for the Winter

Olympics, the 1960 Winter Olympics,

built in 1959 for the delegates was

supposed to be torn down. It sort of

patched together and we we we held it

together, but it had no air

conditioning. So you'd keep the doors

open, you keep the windows open, but in

the summer the mosquitoes came in, drove

the guests crazy. So, we had this night

clerk, you know, those crazy night

clerks come in and he was getting

complaints all the time about the

mosquitoes. And he on his own decided

one day to go before he went to work,

get in 11:00 at night, and he bought a

bunch of catfish at the store because

there's a bunch of ponds around the

business. And he figured that's where

all the mosquitoes are starting. So, the

catfish will eat the larvae of the of of

of the mosquitoes, and he'd solve the

problem. So, he just on his own decided

to buy a bunch of catfish, dumped them

in the ponds all around the hotel. Well,

about 4 in the morning, this engineer

calls me gruff guy, says the raccoons

had a feeding frenzy and ran through the

hotel because the doors were open with

bunch of, you know, flying fish in their

their mouths and fish everywhere. And

Ludo said, "You got to fire that son of

a [ __ ] This goddamn idiot." And I

started laughing. Went up there the next

morning, met with them, and I said,

"This is a magical. You tried to solve a

goddamn problem." And we created the

failure award and I gave the biggest

screw-up every single month a bonus. And

at the end of the year, we'd put them

all together. January screw-up, February

screw- up, and we'd have the failure of

the a year award. And did that for years

until my sister said, "We'll call it the

magical moment award." But it was about

initi initiative, taking initiative,

taking responsibility, taking ownership,

trying new things, seeing what works,

iteration, entrepreneurial mindset. It's

not linear. It's thinking creatively

outside the box. That's what a dyslexic

by definition has to do. And that's what

I thought a successful business needed

to do. And it literally empowered our

employees loved it because they felt

seen and heard

>> and safe I guess

>> and safe because they was like as long

as they do it with, you know, no one's

jumping off cliffs here. We're not

encouraging, you know, recklessness, but

risk-taking. And it literally allowed

the business not just to survive, but to

start to thrive in ways I couldn't ever

imagine. I I think that's a really

important just such an important lesson

to so many business owners especially in

these changing times where everything's

moving so quickly in AI and technology

that most people are incentivized just

to business as usual you know protect

our position if we're successful or you

know to prolong convention or whatever

that might mean but businesses that

adopt that approach clearly have an edge

in these rapidly changing times.

>> Yeah. No. And and look, I mean it back

to just, you know, I remember there was

a book Tom Peters wrote called The

Pursuit of Wow. I mean, if there was one

book that just just hit me in the core

that sort of expressed everything I

wanted to become, he talked about hire

the smile, train the skill, uh about

finding these superstar leaders and

developing owners with your leadership

team that they, you know, he talked

about, I remember the Ritz Carlton at

the time gave literally cash to the

folks that were cleaning the rooms and

gave them the ability to use the cash as

needed to solve a problem for their

customers.

>> They created ownership with frontline

employees that were undervalued or

devalued. He talked about, I remember,

diversity as a business essential with

all the anti-woke, anti-Dei stuff we're

dealing with in the United States of

America. I mean, from a business

perspective, there's a business

imperative to advance diversity. But it

was it was Peter's decades ago that

really created that mindset for me in

the business. Diversity broadly defined

>> uh in every way, shape, or form. And so

the business became this sort of the

pursuit of wow of awe of surprise of

iteration of of daring energy. So the

core ideology just kept growing in that

space. Restaurants hotels wineries and

audacious adventurous people uh that

wanted to sort of build a brand build

something that was special. It wasn't

about money. It was about pursuit of

meaning and purpose moments.

>> So why did you leave that and do

politics?

>> I know

there was a two things happened. I got a

phone call. I was running the wine

store, closing it up, doing bookkeeping,

accounting, you know, my the warehouse

was in my apartment. Um, one night right

before I'm closing up, this guy runs in

um to the store and very nervous guy and

he's like, "Can can you help me? What's

a good champagne? Just I got to get

cold." He's like, "Thank you." Put it

away. I'm like, "It's good." He goes,

"Can you wrap it?" I said, "Yeah, I got

it wrapped." Says, "Thank you, man."

About 30 minutes later, the guy comes

back. I'm like, "Oh, damn." Like, I

screwed up or something. but he's got

this girl with him and he's knocking on

the door and I open key back up. He

comes in. He goes, "Just want to

introduce you to my fiance." And I said,

"Wow." He goes, "Well, your champagne, I

just asked her to marry down the block

at the Palace of Fine Arts

>> and we love the champagne and I just

want to say thank you. You were so nice

to me."

>> I remember literally sitting there

crying after he left.

>> Like that's everything that this is like

this is this is this is business, man.

>> It's not a transaction. It's

relationships. Talk about moments.

Magic, man. That's that's it. To your

point, I thought, "This is it. This is

my bliss. This is I'm going to keep

doing this forever." And then I got a

damn call from the mayor of San

Francisco.

>> Can I just ask you on that question?

When that guy came in with his fiance,

why was it so meaningful to you? I can

literally still see the emotion in your

face some 20 years later.

>> Because what I did had meaning. It

mattered in a way I never thought. I

thought it was a transaction.

>> Thought I was buying something. and I

was selling something. Wasn't that man?

>> It was it was marking a really important

moment in his life. Business changed

after that. It wasn't business. It was

just it was it was a different

proposition.

>> Then you get a phone call

>> and I get a phone call and uh screwed

everything up. Willie Brown says, "Hey,

you've been you know, you just opened

this store and uh you know, I've been

reading. You were complaining getting

those permits. It was taking too long."

And

>> he's Willie Brown. Willie Brown, the

mayor of San Francisco, former speaker

of the California Assembly, one of the

most dynamic,

>> one of the most extraordinary

politicians in California history, I

would argue American history, and I

don't say that lightly. Some of the

world's great leaders will identify as

Willie Brown as one of the most

transformative political leaders. And uh

so there's a couple articles in the

paper about me bitching about permits

and parking or something. And he calls

me, he goes, "This is Willie Brown." I'm

like, "Oh, Mr. Mayor." He goes, "Hey,

come on down next Wednesday. I'm a put

you on the film commission." I'm like,

"This is amazing. I'm going to be on the

film commission. I'm 20ome years old.

Got a wine store, about to open a

restaurant I was working on, and now

he's put me on the film commission." I

go down to city hall that next

Wednesday. It's a group of 20 or 30

people. He's swearing a bunch of people

on commissions. And he says, "And Gavin

Newsome, you know, opened a a wine store

down the block, blah blah blah." Goes

the new chair of the parking and traffic

commission. I'm like, I thought I was

going on the film commission. Literally

didn't tell me or anyone. I didn't even

know what chair meant. And all of a

sudden, 26,7 years old, I'm now the

president of San Francisco's Parking and

Traffic Commission. He just randomly put

me in that position. Inspiration,

desperation. I know what the hell I was

doing. And that was how my political

career began. Literally that phone call,

that appointment, not to film, but

parking in traffic. And uh that marked a

pretty significant moment in hindsight

in my life.

>> And that was a pivotal moment in your

your trajectory because you were on

course to continue being an entrepreneur

probably for the rest of your life.

>> Yeah.

>> Could have been somebody.

>> Jesus. So give me the whistle stop

between that moment when he places you

in this role to here. I know I know

whistle stop is a tough word to use to

describe that journey but what is the

whistle stop?

>> Well I just I mean I I put my head down.

I I I learned everything I could back to

sort of the humility of not knowing what

you don't know and recognizing, you

know, success leaves clues and you can

learn from everybody. And I started

listening, learning from people,

absorbing. And I applied myself as

parking traffic commissioner. So much

so, nine months later, uh there was a

vacancy on our our board of supervisors,

our city council, and Willie Brown goes,

"You know what? You've been doing a

pretty decent job here, man. I'm gonna

give you a shot." So, I was a relatively

young guy now is the entrepreneur

business person on our city council

board of supervisors and I just hit the

ground running. I opened I by that time

opened a few extra businesses. It was a

part-time job but I started to apply

myself a little bit more full-time. Had

to put together a management group to

start managing the business and started

applying myself more as a supervisor.

Spent almost seven, eight years doing

that. And I was a relatively young guy,

33, four, and Willie Brown was termed

out as mayor. And there was an open with

the mayor's uh uh seat. And I think at

33, I announced why the hell not. Um,

you know, give it a shot. Miss 100% of

shots you don't take. And uh was I think

pulling third or fourth and decided to

go for it and ran for mayor of San

Francisco.

>> You became mayor of San Francisco. You

had a big impact while you were mayor of

San Francisco. One of the things people

remember you a lot for is your attitude

towards same-sex couples and the uh

Defense of Marriage Act

>> where you took a quite a controversial

stance at the time by enabling

I believe it was um same-sex couples in

the state to get their marriage

licenses.

>> Well, I was uh yeah, it was uh 2004 and

uh my party, the Democratic party was

not uh um people were not enthusiastic,

weren't even promoting. In fact, they

were almost universally opposed to

same-sex marriage. And I had an

experience in Washington DC. Nancy

Pelosi, the speaker of the house,

invited me as a new mayor to listen to

George Bush give his final State of the

Union speech. And I was there um with an

extra ticket, her husband's ticket. And

I was up there in the rafters listening

to George Bush give a speech. And in the

speech, he's talking about Iraq war.

He's talking about a lot of interesting

things. And he ends with, "It's time for

a constitutional amendment to ban

same-sex marriage." And everyone starts

applauding and the people around me are

applauding. I'm like, Jesus. I walk back

out and you had to put your cell phones,

early cell phone days. And we're all in

line waiting to get our cell phones

back. And I remember the couple right

next to me as I'm waiting in line after

the speech goes, that was a hell of a

speech. The president gave, I'm so sick

and tired. I'll never forget these guys

said, "I'm so sick and tired of the

homosexual agenda." And I'm like, and I

literally turned homosexual. It was

porative. And all I thought about is,

man, I want to introduce myself as mayor

of San Francisco. I didn't say a word. I

didn't even thought about marriage

equality. When I ran for mayor, no one

asked me about it. They were talking

about domestic partnerships. It was

literally that moment that I walked

outside, used that cell phone, called my

chief of staff, and said, "We need to do

something about it." He goes, "What do

you mean?" And I said, "Well, I'm gonna

come back tomorrow, man. Let's do

something." I just got elected mayor and

made the decision then and it unfolded a

few weeks later to start marrying

same-sex couples. And we married Phyllis

Lion and Delm Martin. And they've been

together almost 50 years. You talk about

faith, love, and devotion, constancy,

what marriage should be about. They were

denied the ability to marry for only one

reason. They were a same-sex couple. And

uh we decided to test the law and was

told that people found out and they were

not going to allow us to move forward

with the first this marriage. We were

going to do a simple ceremonial marriage

and then file a lawsuit. Courts open at

9:00. They were going to do a temporary

restraining order. I realized I was

mayor. I could open city hall earlier.

So we opened city hall at 8. We married

Phyllis and Lion. Phyllis and Lion um

and Dell rather and nine o'clock the

courts opened and we waited for the

decision and the judge said there's no

irreparable harm. There's no reason to

have a temporary resting which meant

that we could keep marrying same couples

which was not what we had imagined.

Fast forward what we call the winter of

love in San Francisco not the summer of

love. February 2004, 4,036 couples from

46 states in eight countries came to San

Francisco to live their lives out loud

to say I do in this magical experience

that just shook me to the core and

changed

just my relationship to my party. They

were pissed.

They were furious.

>> The Democratic party.

>> Yes. And I got an earful from all of

them. people I adored, revered. The same

people, the same people said, all of

them. I mean, this is the road advice

that everyone goes, "Whatever you do,

just do the right thing. Do what you

think is right." I remember that's what

they, you know, hey, young man, congrats

on being married. Just do what you think

is right.

>> You do what you think is right. How the

who the hell are you? I mean, I remember

those, who the hell are you to do what

you just did? And it sort of shook my

confidence in this whole bracket of

politics. like what am I doing? What did

I just do? Um but it was it was a hell

of a first impression as mayor uh to do

that and uh that sort of started my

political life.

>> When I overlap the dates here, you win

your mayoral mayoral race in 2003.

>> Um your mother was getting was sick in

the years in the leadup to that. She was

diagnosed with breast cancer.

>> Yep. So, you're contending with the

woman in your life who's clearly had the

most impactful role on shaping who you

are and being there for you when the

odds were against you and when no one

else was. In the leadup and as your sort

of political career starts to

accelerate, she is suffering with breast

cancer.

>> Yep. And also suffering with her son

being in politics. She did not want me

to go in politics. In fact,

the the biggest

regret she had is that I was walking

down the path that my father was

interested in that led to their divorce

in the first place. He pursued politics

and lost in two elections for state

senate and for county supervisor.

Ironically, the seat that I held lost

both races, was in debt, was humiliated,

defeated, said he had a breakdown, and

left. That's when they got divorced. and

she saw me walking down his path and she

loved seeing me in business. She ended

up working for me as our bookkeeper and

she saw my passion in the business. She

said, "Why the hell you getting in

politics? Don't do this to yourself."

And she literally near deathbed said,

"Just please don't do this. Don't don't

keep doing this." She was really upset

that I ran for mayor.

something I think about. You know, there

there's days where I'm like I go, "She

told me so." You know, when you're

sitting there facing a recall, you're

like, "Told you." So,

>> a recall for anyone that doesn't know is

>> No, they just, you know, in the middle

of, you know, you get a four-year term

and two years later they say you and

they get a petition and try to get rid

of you. And uh I faced that just second

time in a half century in California. I

I defeated it overwhelmingly. But that

was a hell of a thing to experience and

to see the nationalization of that

recall. I mean, the the entire

Republican party came out to try to take

me out politically. And you think about

what your mom said, like she may have

been right. When did you realize that

your mother wasn't going to make it with

her breast cancer?

>> It was when it she she went through so

often as a case. She fought back. It was

in remission and then boom, it hit

again. And it metastasized and it was

and she did it was I'll tell you this I

will never ever ever ever recommend for

anyone. And this is just my own personal

experience. She called me, left a voice

message.

Imagine getting this voice message.

I was very busy doing all this stuff and

obviously not attentive enough to her.

And she was making the point. She goes,

"Hi honey, it's your mother. I know you

haven't seen me in a while, but next

Thursday I won't be around, so you may

want to come next Wednesday because it

will be my last day."

Literally left a voicemail like that. I

called my sister. I'm like, "What the

hell is this?" She goes, "She's crying."

And she said, "She just told me she's

going to do an assisted suicide because

it's so bad." She left a voicemail. And

so that next week I was there, my sister

and I were in her room. Doctor comes in,

gives her some what turned out to be

oxycottton. I remember like early on

like what are these pills? She had to

take those an hour before he got there.

She takes them.

God is my going through [ __ ] photos

like this, man. It's all she wanted to

see. All the old photos of us growing

up. And we're sitting there on my sister

on the left, I'm on the right, my mom

there took these pills waiting for the

doctor and she's going through all these

old photo albums of us growing up

talking about these moments. Yeah. Come

on, man.

So,

yeah. And uh but wanted to be there for

her. doctor comes in and ministers and

she starts gasping. My sister runs out.

The doctor had already left and I was

like I She's gasping for air and I'm

just sitting there and holding her hand

and she's and her last breath and uh I

just sat there and my sister no one

walked in. I felt like for a day, it

felt like hours, but it was just

probably 10 minutes before someone

finally came in just sitting there with

my mother who passed away. And uh not

realizing that moment, what it

represented, what it ultimately meant.

Uh

I regret that was hard. I don't being

there for assisted suicide. Uh by the

way, I was proud we changed the law in

California. That was probably done

illegally. I don't even want to know.

And if you want to come after me, come

after me.

um she needed to do it. She was in so

much pain, suffering. Now it's legal to

do that, but it wasn't at the time when

she did it. Um and um so that was uh

that was a moment and um you know that

was you know

just became mayor. It was back to just

making stupid mistakes, man. You know,

you're brand new mayor, you're

overwhelmed, you're trying to figure

yourself out, you lose your mom, no

excuse. um was in a marriage that was

going south.

You know, it was a it was you know

>> what did she say to you when she I had

no idea that you sat there as she she

was administered the drugs that took her

life.

>> What were those conversations? What do

you say to someone in such a situation

where it's the last conversations you're

having?

It was um you know you you say the

prefuncter things you know just know how

much you meant to me how much I love you

everything else and and she um she all

she cared about is just don't forget me

she said that that was the last word she

said God is my witness don't forget me

and uh and one of the things I'm most

proud of my sister we started through

our plumpjack we start a foundation um

So, every year we raise money to cancer

research in my mom's name. And uh and

we've never forgotten her. And uh but

she was someone that could have easily

been forgotten, man. Um she's just, you

know, sacrificed everything for two

kids. She, you know, she left us her

character experience, no money, nothing.

I mean, she was just she struggled her

own life and uh just gave it all to us.

And uh so you know those are and we all

have people in our lives like that. What

a gift and uh you know I was blessed.

>> Were there any words unsaid? Sometimes

once people have moved on and you mature

as as an adult and a man you you see

things differently and you

>> I mentioned that earlier being perhaps

way too candid. I imagine after this is

over my folks what the hell were you you

know who cares? Life's too short. Um but

when I said you know when she talked

about being average I I didn't confront

her on that.

that just that was for me perhaps more

than her. It wasn't about me this

moment. It was about just, you know, it

was so important for her to walk through

all these memories. And again, that's

what it's about, man. It's memories,

moments. It's about nothing else.

>> When you're later, you win the race to

become governor of San Francisco. Do you

think about

her? Do you think Do you wish she could

have seen

>> Yeah. I I wish she could see my four

kids.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Come on.

>> Yeah.

>> I got sworn in as governor of California

and my wife's there and we got a

three-year-old. He's got his pacifier

and he's got his blanket and he in the

middle of my speech

runs up. I'm giving the speech stressed

out. Again, I don't read speeches. So,

it was a read I had to read. So, I'm

like, I can't look because I'm going to

lose my sight on the on the

teleprompter. And my son runs up. My

wife was nervous to run up on stage

because it was like, this is a big damn

deal. And he comes right up, grabs me.

And everyone kind of like is moving

around the audience. I'm like, what do I

do? And I like just instinctually lifted

him

>> and he put his head right on the side

and started to fall asleep. And I read

the speech with my son. No one remembers

a damn word I said. I don't remember a

word. Everyone remembers what it felt

like. Oh, I thought about that moment.

If my mom was around to see that

wasn't the governor, it was uh it was

the parent and uh yeah, sorry, ma'am.

It's uh unbecoming. Forgive me. But that

that uh I wish I wish he was around for

them. Why?

because it's uh well I wish I could

thank her for being an extraordinary

parent. I never did. I told you I took

her for granted. I never knew how hard

it was until I had my own kids. But I I

think she'd be so proud of of uh of of

our, you know, 9-year-old Dutch,

15year-old Montana. I think she'd be

proud of me in that respect. I think she

wanted me to be happy. She wanted me to

be a good husband. I got this incredible

rockstar wife, Jennifer. I got these

four unbelievable kids, man. Just filled

me with joy. Um I struggle to be a

better parent, husband, politics,

stress, you know, but u that's all she

wanted for me.

>> When you're in the public eye, um as I

guess I kind of am now because people

watch me a lot, man. Um, it's there's

always this balance between what people

see, which is a very two-dimensional

thing, which is what people see of me,

and then there's the the the imperfect

messy home life, which I contend with

every single day. Like, even on the way

here this morning, I'm like, I'm going

to be late for Gavin New Gavin Newsome

because my girlfriend's having like

period cramps, and I'm like, I don't

want to leave my girlfriend, but I need

to go. I'm going to be late. And I'm

like trying to, you know, and then we

had the alarms going off in the house.

And then the all the lights flicker cuz

we just moved in as you know. And then

the just craziness. And then you look at

my phone and there's business problems.

And then there's my my my family

problems are going on. And then I come

here

>> and I interview you.

>> I'm sorry. I feel like I got in your

way.

>> No, no, no. But obviously it's a great

it's a tremendous honor as you know, but

it's just it's I say that because there

is a behind the scenes and the behind

the scenes is not as perfect as the

exterior.

>> No. Oh man,

>> you were alluding to the season of your

life being filled with imperfection.

>> Yeah.

>> Tell me about the human imperfection

that was was taking place behind the

scenes as you were excelling

professionally.

>> I think there was a a magazine,

The Economist

did a headline said, "Young man in a

hurry, he wants to be governor."

Seriously. And it wasn't question mark.

It was more There we are. It was more

like like he's serious. He actually

thinks he could be governor. It was kind

of a snarky headline and piece, but the

headline struck me. Young man in a

hurry. That's who I was. Was the

entrepreneur. I'm sort of trying to, you

know, just trying to make things happen,

trying new things, seeing what works,

having a little bit more success than

failure. Um, you know, learning from

mistakes, moving on. Um, you know, move

pretty quickly, relatively young age. I

mean, I was, I think, one of the

youngest mayors in San Francisco

history. um you know in my 30s and um

and you know losing my mom a

relationship my my first wife who it was

ended extraordinarily well she's you

know I have nothing negative to say etc

but it ended that was embarrassing you

know it's you're it's in the public

everything's in the I'm growing up in

the public growing up with this just

bright lights

>> how did you [ __ ] up

>> yeah I just I I I just I got I I didn't

I wasn't situationally aware I wasn't

emotionally

mature in terms I remember a good friend

of mine Mie Silver who's just a rock

star got my just just got my act she she

is the one who got me to get my act

together. She goes I said she goes

you're the mayor in San Francisco. I

said yeah I know. She goes well then

start acting like it. I said what are

you talking about? I said I said when I

go in I don't need to be in the front

row. She goes you need to be in the I

said I don't need to I don't like being

in the front I don't like I don't need

to be right. She says the [ __ ] mayor

and you'll be in the front row and

you'll have people watch you in the

front row because that's what they want

from their mayor. And I'm like I

remember her saying this. I'm like what?

I just say she's like no I'm good. She

said it's not about you. I said well no

I I don't need that. I don't need to I

like the job. I don't that's that's not

part of the job. That's the p that's

like the press conference side. like I

don't and it was such a she literally it

had such a I remember that I remember

>> sitting there with dinner with her at

Delansancy Street when she said that to

me and it sort of hit me in the core.

There was I there was a lack of maturity

that I I was just the entrepreneur that

happened to be mayor and I

this is ironic based on our conversation

needed to play the role a little bit

more than I was and I needed to mature

and I needed to get my act together and

I you know and that I went through a

process there was a couple years there a

year where you know a lot of things

happened all at once and I was able to

get through it get reelected.

>> What were those things that happened all

at once?

>> Well, I mean, divorce, you lose your

mom, divorce, dealing with a new job,

dealing with high-profile decisions that

became very national. All of a sudden,

I'm, you know, punching above my weight

as a young elected official in ways that

I not many people didn't necessarily

imagine. Marriage quality issues being

one of them. other things that I was

involved in to your point about drinking

a little too much um and after the

divorce making some stupid mistakes that

uh that I owned up to and regret and uh

having to work through all that. I mean

these are you know it's around this time

you know and uh you know what I could

tell this kid.

>> What would you tell him?

>> Get your [ __ ] together.

>> You're referring to an extrammarital

affair which you owned up to.

>> Yeah. I wasn't married, but she was. And

u and I it's funny. I I've got a a

little

>> um memoir that I'm putting out,

ironically, called Young Man in a Hurry

next year.

>> I love the title. I can relate as well

>> that I'm very, you know, I reflect on

that and dive deeper in a very

self-critical way and I hope very honest

way and I hope people can appreciate

that. I think people will because I

think every normal human being

understands that they too are imperfect

and especially when life takes hold

>> and you're growing and you're learning.

We all make mistakes. I've made mistakes

and I expect to make a lot more.

>> Yeah.

>> But I think it's in the admittance of

those mistakes and acknowledging them

that that's where we uh

>> that's where we find out who we actually

are.

>> Yeah.

>> You know,

>> and Yeah. Humiliated. Humiliated.

>> I had no knowledge of any of this stuff.

But so when you say humiliated, I

>> I just humiliated my dad. Uh he said

something and I'll tell you it carried

forward with me. He told me at the time

uh he was so disappointed in me and he

said you go home with the one who

brought you to the dance.

[ __ ] And that was the impact I had on

one of my friends that I you know

because of that very and I don't it's

not a way it's just like the shortest.

It wasn't even a relationship was like

just just some stupid stuff. And um and

I've just tried to you know I think the

fact that we're friends today is like

really important to me like one of the

most important things like to sort of

reconcile and that's been really u

profoundly important as part of a

journey. Uh but you know I let him down

I embarrassed my dad. I embarrassed

myself. I wasn't myself and u I had to

get my [ __ ] together and um and did I

just a drop of the dime. I mean back to

just Mimi Silver just a rock star. and

she told me, you know, I remember she

said, "You're coming over to see me

tonight and we're going to fix this."

>> I've built companies from scratch and

backed many more. And there's a blind

spot that I keep seeing in early stage

founders. They spend very little time

thinking about HR. And it's not because

they're reckless or they don't care.

It's because they're obsessed with

building their companies. And I can't

fault them for that. At that stage,

you're thinking about the product, how

to attract new customers, how to grow

your team, really, how to survive. And

HR slips down the list because it

doesn't feel urgent, but sooner or later

it is. And when things get messy, tools

like our sponsor today, just works go

from being a nice to have to being a

necessity. Something goes sideways and

you find yourself having conversations

you did not see coming. This is when you

learn that HR really is the

infrastructure of your company and

without it, things wobble. And Just Work

stops you learning this the hard way. It

takes care of the stuff that would

otherwise drain your energy and your

time, automating payroll, health

insurance benefits, and it gives your

team human support at any hour. It grows

with your small business from startup

through to growth, even when you start

hiring team members abroad. So, if you

want HR support that's there through the

exciting times and the challenging

times, head to justworks.com now. That's

just.com.

At that age, you were a very young man.

I mean, you still look look like a young

man now. God bless you, brother.

>> Um, but uh, young men are in particular

have a particular set of struggles in

the modern world and you've used certain

words that sort of parlay into that.

You've used the words purpose and

meaning

>> and if we look at some of the stats

around how young men are doing in the

country, it's not great. And even even

young boys are doing terribly across the

world for a variety of reasons. And when

we think about the political climate and

what's happened in this last election

cycle and how young men are voting

increasingly for a certain set of ideas,

what what what do you think is going on

with young men and what is the solution

or answer that will lead them to a

better outcome?

>> You know, I'm really proud. My wife um

who's been a real leader, she's done a

half dozen documentaries. She did one

that was particularly wellreceived

called um a misrepresentation about the

myths and disinformation around women

and girls. She followed up with two

years later in 2015

uh with a documentary called The Mask

You Live In about masculinity. In 2015,

she was highlighting all the things the

trend lines a decade ago that are

headlines today

>> as it relates to the crisis of of boys

and men. And she was noting the suicide

rate. She was talking about, you know,

deaths of despair. She was talking about

educational attainment. She was talking

about all these issues that were a next

level crisis. And it was so ahead of her

time in so many respects. And and she's

come back to me on that over and over

again, particularly with our two boys

and their maturation versus my two girls

uh in the relationship we have to our

deeper understanding of how men and u

and and girls and women and boys are

different. And and so this is code red

in this country around the world

increasingly. And if it was happening to

any minority group, particularly in my

party, the Democratic party, we'd be all

over it. Instead, we've been timid about

it because men have this sort of

hierarchical uh benefits in society. Go

back hundreds and hundreds of years. Oh,

men are really struggling really.

>> You know, men still dominate in all

these key positions of power and

influence. But when you see all what's

happening underneath, it is a crisis.

And as a consequence, the Republican

party, Donald Trump in particular, and I

think some respects, what's happening in

this sort of manosphere, and I don't

mean that pjoratively, but in, you know,

there's been not an exploitation, at

least there's a recognition and a

relationship to it that has attracted a

lot of young men that are seeking

meaning, purpose, and mission. And as a

consequence, it's also been weaponized

uh particularly by one party in a way

that I don't think is ultimately

beneficial or positive. Our party needs

to own up to that and we need to address

these realities. Uh Richard Reeves is

doing amazing work on it. Scott Galloway

is doing amazing work on it. So many

folks in this space uh you know cats

been doing a decade ago talking about

it. But Democratic Party, my party needs

to own up in the space. And just so I'm

not, you know, accused of preaching and

not practicing, I've worked for the last

six months on an executive order that

we're about to release in this space

that goes to issues around education.

Can't be what you can't see. And a lot

of these kindergarten, elementary

teachers, most of them are women. is so

about recruiting more men uh to become

teachers, focusing on caregiving,

focusing more broadly on very

intentional interventions to begin to

address this crisis.

>> The Democratic Party, I think it's fair

to say, most certainly played their hand

wrong in this regard. And the word

played is obviously again comes loaded,

but but very much I think

I think to so some I think people could

fairly say to some degree turned against

or misunderstood men is a probably a

better way of saying it. Misunderstood

the plight of men and boys. and the the

the Republican party I think the message

that they offered although there's

shades of

you know behavior or um narrative that

is not productive

at least spoke directly to men

>> 100% we didn't

>> what do you think the Democratic party

got wrong as it relates to appealing to

young men what's the narrative that the

Democratic party projected but shouldn't

have

>> I think there was just deep lack of

empathy.

>> Yeah.

>> Care, any compassion to what was going

on. This this uh and and and

recognition, even deeper understanding.

I think it's still some I still have

conversations with folks and and people

are very uncomfortable in my party

talking about this, particularly members

of my party in leadership positions,

particularly women that just feel like,

come on, we just went through me too.

We're struggling with gender inequality

inequality. We still don't have equal

representations in all these CEO

positions and obviously we're struggling

in legislatores. Uh we continue to have

this glass ceiling we can't break and

what more proof do you need than Kla

Harris and and uh and Hillary Clinton.

Uh we don't even get paid for uh the

same amount as as men and what the hell

are you talking to me about the unique

plight and challenges of men. And then

you start saying well there's going to

be two to one graduates coming from our

UC system here in California in the next

six years. They're like that's not true.

and and then they see the stats women

and they go, "Oh, I didn't realize

that." Or

>> two to one women graduating

>> versus I mean, we're on that track. I

mean, we're moving down that path in the

UK.

>> You see the suicide rates are just off

the chart. You see the deaths of

despair, meaning overdoses off the

charts.

>> And you see all of these indexes of

unhappiness and loneliness and

isolation. You see, I mean, Scott, it's

been just he's the best. I mean, talking

about what this means in terms of just

the inability for for boys to ever

become men, to be caregivers. uh to be

those warriors, to have, you know, to to

be uh those role models, to even have to

have the masculine traits of just being

able to be engaged in a real

relationship as opposed to attached to

some notion of relationship online porn

or something. And so I it's a

comprehensive strategy that needs to be

engaged. And for me politically, it's as

I said, it's code red. not just the

substance, the morality of it, but also

the politics attached to it because the

other parties weaponize this and it's

it's multicultural. It's multi-thnic.

It's not just it's not just white male

uh grievance that's being expressed in

this space.

>> If and when you become president in 2028

or another year,

>> how is the attitude towards men going to

shift and what are the practical ways

that you get there towards, you know,

>> well, I don't think you wait for that

moment. And I think we have to shape

that moment. I think we have to take

responsibility. We have to take account.

We have to have a sober, first of all,

you have to have a deeper sober

reflection. Why the hell Democratic

party is at 27% in polls just a few

months ago. I mean, it's a toxic party

in terms of its brand.

>> Why?

>> Uh, exactly. We need to understand that.

I can give you 25 theories.

>> Can you give me super because I'm not a

politician, so I don't understand a lot

of the political talk, but like that is

staggering.

>> Yes.

>> And and why did it happen?

>> Yes.

>> Thank you. No, but that was the

question. Why? How does that

>> why it's one of the reasons I started my

own podcast. It was part of that

exploration. Again, back to humility and

grace. Two words I'll use over and over

and over and over again. Seek first to

understand before you're understood. I

listened to all the punditry hours after

the election results. Yeah.

>> And everyone was an expert. I'm like,

that's amazing. You're an expert. It was

Israel for sure. No, it was inflation

for sure. No, it was interest rates for

sure. No, it was incumbency uh for sure.

No, it was uh it was woke for sure. It

was trans for sure. Everyone was for

sure. They knew exactly what it was. I'm

like, "This is amazing. Everyone just

knows what's going on." Meanwhile, I'm

like 20 pages in writing this down. Say,

"Oh, it it's about loss of man." "Oh,

no. It's about the man of No, it's about

it was about Joe Rogan. We didn't go on

Joe." Oh, for sure. It was about No, she

didn't, you know, she didn't say this or

she it was the view for sure. She could

have separated from Biden. No, it was it

was a And and then I'm like, "Well, wait

a second. I I need to really understand

this more fully. Well, you know, uh and

so that became my own journey back to

the entrepreneur of the trying to

iterate and deciding to get some folks

that I vehemently disagree on with it on

my on a new podcast, Charlie Kirk,

because you know, for sure he was

successful in convincing a lot of young

men to turn out in record numbers for

Trump. I wanted to learn about that.

Back to notion of success leaves clues.

>> I want to pick his brain. What are you

doing, right, man? Show some humility

and grace as it relates to uh not try to

be argumentative in in the interview.

Just I'm trying to pick I want to know

why you're so successful. That offended

a lot of people.

>> Uh there he's got a plan. He's executing

a plan. He's got a strategy. He's got a

date that he's identified with a goal

attached to it. Uh he's got a dream with

a deadline. He's there in places people

don't expect him to be. He's meeting

with folks without any filter. He's

willing to confront people he disagrees

with and and agrees with. He's willing

to be out there on the field. He's he's

organized a construct and he's been very

deliberative at building a sense of

community and this notion of community.

We all want to be connected to something

bigger than ourselves is a big part of

this as well. Part of the MAGA movement.

And particularly with people feeling

disconnected, you're naturally going to

want to find your way back to something

bigger than themselves that sort of

moores you and gives you a sense of

purpose and meaning as well.

>> And when people are lost, they do go in

search of someone who resonates with

them and someone who speaks directly to

that their plight. And I my observation

as someone that's not an American, when

I think about someone like Charlie Kirk

versus Camala Harris, it's the absolute

opposite approach.

>> Yeah.

>> Camala Harris, lots of people say she

avoided going on Rogan. She wanted him

to fly to She wanted Rogan to fly to

her. She was going to give him a tiny

short time window. It was probably going

to be a bit sanitized in all all

respects. And then Charlie Kirk sits on

campuses across the US and has students

come up and ask him any question. And

his response is he shows you his

response to his credit and he um is

doesn't care about sanitization or being

politically correct.

>> Correct. and he puts it on YouTube for

hours and hours and hours and hours. And

I think in a glassbox world where we get

to see inside now because of technology,

the blackbox approach where your PR team

paints tries to paint an image on the

outside is over. And we saw it in the

election cycle. And you're doing you're

leading the I have to give you credit.

You are leading the charge there because

I can't think of another key political

figure globally who has started a

podcast where you literally invite the

other side on. So, you're doing I think

you're playing the glass box approach.

>> I app I love the way you describe that

and I I everything you said resonated

with me. Um had Steve Bannon on.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is just in of itself was

interesting. Look um

these folks exist and persist. You can

deny it. My party can deny it at its own

peril. Back to your point about what the

hell's happened to my party. And so

trying to understand that, trying to

unpack that. But you know it's

interesting just I think you know comma

is an old friend of mine. I don't want

to get into comma and I say old friend

and people roll their eyes in politics.

People say you know old friend it means

they're friendnemies. It's not but we we

go back before we were both in politics.

We both share that Willie Brown the

former mayor in common in terms of a

relationship that we both had. Uh and as

a consequence of the relationship we had

with him uh we were able to get to know

one another as sort of this cohort. And

um and I I I think a lot about you know

>> what we've just gone through. I wish I'd

love to see Ka

>> on your show.

>> I'd love to see her picture of mom and

dad and I know her as well or better

than most.

>> Yeah.

>> But I would love to see that side of

her.

>> I would. So this notion of what' you

say? Glass box.

>> Glass box versus black box.

>> Black box.

>> Uh hey I'm on here for a reason. Yeah, I

just, you know, it's like I'm out of any

excuse. Look, you are who you are and uh

let it let it all out there. And I think

people I I I I think we claim we long

for authenticity. I still mostly believe

that. Sometimes I question that because

people want you to be your authentic

self, but they're like, "Well, don't

swear as much or be your authentic self,

but don't be so emotional or be your

authentic self, but there's a but." Uh

but I think at the end of the day, I

think we're we've crossed that. I think

we're on the other side. People just

want more of you, whoever the hell you

are,

>> regardless of what it is.

>> Because even the crazy thing I I observe

about Trump is even the imperfect things

he says that would once upon a time have

revolted on people and would have had

adverse reactions.

The fact that he's willing to say them

creates the impression in my mind that I

know who he is.

>> Yeah. And you don't have to like

someone, but if you trust that you know

who they are, then you feel, I think,

safer in predicting what they'll do.

>> Totally.

>> Now, if I don't see Kamala sat on Joe

Rogan or some someone like this, getting

to know her unfiltered. You know, you

your team didn't tell me this. Your team

didn't give me any parameters. They

didn't say you can't ask him about this.

Don't talk about this. There was no

parameters.

>> At least people will know who you are.

>> Yeah. And I think most people don't.

They see me as sort of, you know, slick

guy that, you know, was they think I was

grew up in with a trust fund. Everything

was handed to them. People don't know my

entrepreneurial background. I don't

think they they they they they believe

what they they may have seen on Fox News

out here or, you know, One American News

and the weaponization of that. And so,

you know, I just it's critical, I think,

for our party generally. I think for

both parties now, just you've just got

to get out of that bubble. I give Trump,

to your point, credit in that respect in

every way, shape, or form. criticize him

for many things. He can't criticize him

for accessibility, uh, for at least

appearing to be authentic in terms of

his approach, his willingness to

confront and engage. And I I think

that's very refreshing.

>> How do you think America's doing?

>> I think we're struggling our identity. I

think we're um, you know, Trump has made

it made us feel free to shove again.

It's not our better selves. Um, you

know, the the sort of John Meechum

language, you know, the soul of America

is is is is struggling. And I really

worry about our institutions. I worry

about our democracy. I worry about

neighbors turning on neighbors. Uh,

people forgetting the universal truths

that we all want to be loved. We all

need to be loved. I talked about

everybody needing to be connected. We

also need to be respected. And I think

people are talking down to each other,

talk, talking past each other. It's

again why I want platform people I

disagree with. and Nuke Gingrich on,

former Speaker Gingrich who led my

recall effort against me. You know, I

just I'm trying to just find some

balance in that respect because, you

know, there are good people that

vehemently disagree with us. Uh I don't

know that it benefits any of us to uh to

demean or belittle folks. That's my

thing with Trump. He attacks vulnerable

communities. My mom her what her real

early indelible inspiration for me in

terms of one of those two to three jobs

she had wasn't just working as a

waitress and doing the bookkeeping but

she worked for aid to adoption of

special kids with the Debult family that

had kids with intellectual and physical

uh disabilities. And I remember with

spending time with these kids and I hate

bullies. I I mean forgive the word hate.

I know I I just I dislike I hate

bullies. I don't like people demeaning

other people. I don't like people

scapegoing scapegoating vulnerable

communities. My why is standing up for

ideals and striking out against

injustice. It defines nine out of 10

things for me, personal, professional,

standing up for ideals, striking out

against injustice. And it's just to me

unjust to see people demeaned and

belittled and to use to see vulnerable

communities used as ponds to talk about,

you know, alligator whatever and and

Florida and talk about immigrants and de

demeaning uh in ways and they have to

zigg and zagu if they want to avoid

getting killed by an alligator or

something or mocking people with

disabilities. I that's where I that's

where I get that's where I stand firm

and uh right now my biggest fear you

asked about how where our country is. I

feel like Trump has opened that overturn

window in a way uh that I very concerned

about our ability to get back to find

our better humanity.

>> Who does Trump care about

>> himself? Period. Full stop. It's not

complicated. He doesn't he doesn't care

if he's the heel or the hero as long as

he's the star.

I mean, it's and that's just anyone that

spent time with them. I spent time with

this much more than any Democrat,

certainly any Democratic governor in the

country. Period. Full stop. I did it

through COVID my his first term and

certainly even in the second term.

>> And what surprised you?

>> Nothing that surprised me now is that

he's a very different guy than he was in

the first term. He's uh there's no

limits now. It's there's a megalomania

there.

>> Megalamia.

>> He feels no limits now. And you feel

that in every way. He can say and do

whatever the hell he wants. And there's

no oversight. There's no advise and

consent. There's no co-equal branch of

government. Speaker of our House of

Representatives completely abdicated

that. The question is, do the courts

hold up? Or we the people? And uh I'll

tell you that and we're celebrating our

250th anniversary of the founding

fathers, the best of the Roman Republic,

Greek democracy. and and uh you know

this notion of of of system of checks

and balances, popular sovereignty and uh

I think it's uh it's on life support now

and I don't say that lightly. I say that

very thoughtfully and I say that as a

guy that's watched the president of the

United States not send military in his

first term

or his first six months anywhere in the

world except to an American city where

he has 5,000 military in the streets of

Los Angeles. A war within. So, I say

this very soberly and mindful of the

moment we are in American history.

>> Do you think he wants to see you fail?

>> I think he wants to take me out and down

at the same time. I think he enjoys the

sparring with me. I think he I think he

thrives on it. I know he does.

>> Cuz he calls you Gavin New Scum. Yes.

>> But then meets with you privately. Yeah.

>> And what are those meetings like?

>> Unbelievably cordial. Unbelievably it

drives people crazy when I say this, but

I'd be lying if I didn't say it. every

time I have a conversation, including

the the night before he quote unquote

federalized the National Guard. We had

an unbelievably good conversation and we

were going back and forth. He said, "Use

this cell phone. Keep keep calling me on

this cell phone directly. You need

anything, call me. You need anything,

call me." Which is an amazing final

statement as I hung up. Only to read

eight hours later uh that new scum I

read him the riot act, which he never

did. Completely made 100% made it up and

then federalizes the guard. Um, it's uh

it's a game. It's a show. It's a

dangerous game and it's a very

exhausting show and it's becoming

derivative and uh and more dangerous.

>> Isn't this just how politics goes in

America?

>> Shouldn't No, it shouldn't. Look, I used

to have my beef with George W. Bush,

George HW Bush. We we'd have our beefs

on the other side. Uh Republicans

certainly with Clinton or Obama or even

Biden. Long for those days. University.

I go in the office of Ronald Reagan's

old office, Governor Ronald Reagan,

that's my old office in as governor of

California. I mean, you know, his his

last speech in the Oval Office, his last

speech was about the life force of new

Americans, Lady Liberty's torch, our