i was just this lanky asian nerd who

played chess aaron maney he's one of the

uk's most successful ever youtubers

i was getting some sort of sick thrill

out of seeing the numbers go up so i

made one video every single day for at

least six months it drove me to the

point where i one time i just broke down

crying on camera um i never published

that but i have a i have a photo which i

sometimes look back on to remind me of

like

what it took

there's some things about you that you

can't fix and i think you just have to

be very mechanical about them and be

like this is me i have good things and i

have bad things but the bad things i

can't change i'm gonna lean on things

that are good about me fix the things i

can fix and

the rest is life

emotionally physically just exhaustion i

think is how i'd put it very very tired

it was actually a bit of a pivot point

in my career because i sat down like

this isn't actually what i wanted it was

a realization that i've actually you

know my channel's growing all these

metrics are looking up but but this

isn't you know

my brain

not many people know this actually but

[Music]

aaron maney he's a creator and

entrepreneur with over 8 million

subscribers

his story is unconventional a young kid

from the uk that was bullied in school

and whose path to escape that reality

would turn out to become his dream

his purpose

his meaning but as aaron will tell you

he made the critical mistakes so many of

us make when we're chasing our dreams he

became obsessive he sacrificed too much

things that mattered more

and at some point that would lead to him

having a breakdown and that breakdown

was a moment of inflection and he's

figured out that all-important balance

of striving while knowing that you are

already enough at the same time and that

i guess is the ultimate goal of all of

our lives

so without further ado

i'm stephen bartlett and this is the

director ceo i hope nobody's listening

but if you are then please keep this to

yourself

[Music]

aaron

tens of millions of followers and

subscribers later um when i read through

your story and your journey i could see

this real sort of

fundamental obsessive

um ambitious

guy under there and it made me wonder as

i was reading through about how obsessed

you were with the growth and

the scaling of your channel it made me

hypothesize that there must have been

something happen in your early years

that did that to you that gave you that

bug that

insatiable desire to be successful or

something have you identified what that

is

yeah uh

so i'd probably i should preface this by

saying that

i'm very aware i'm a very lucky person

um i actually just got off from my

brother's wedding a couple of days ago

and

i was just looking around at the the

family around me the friends around me

thinking like

damn like you know this is it

um

but there was one thing so

when i was growing up i had a very

supportive family but i didn't have a

great school life you know i was i was

just this lanky asian nerd who played

chess that was that was me basically um

and i think there was some part of me

that did seek approval

and uh i mean all this really happened

when my brother got me my first

smartphone and that just became my

outlet

you know on one hand i had this school

life that was very very mediocre but

then i had this this piece of technology

in my hand that could do all these

things and i just became obsessed with

it like this was my life

yeah i guess um and i just poured

everything into it i learned everything

about this phone and how to do all these

things on it and i think it just got to

the point where i was like let's make a

video

how old were you when you were you were

that you described yourself as a lanky

asian kid that got got a smartphone for

the first time how old are you 14

probably yeah and and the school you

went to

what was the what was the what was the

typically people get bullied because

what you're leading to right i've heard

you talk about being bullied i think in

some of the interviews you've done um

typically people get bullied because the

other kids think that there's something

to bully them for

yeah uh there was plenty um i was a nerd

uh i wasn't very pretty to be honest

like people regularly just call me ugly

um

i think there's some sort of also

subliminal thing about being asian not

being like a cool thing

um it wasn't like a particularly asian

area if that makes sense

just i think a lot of things add up into

you just being a bit sidelined

was it a predominantly white school

predominantly yeah i did have asian

friends

but majority of them yeah

and so you get given this phone and that

becomes your world

yeah what about your your parents your

your

immediate family

i mean that they're amazing they

there was obviously a little bit of

questioning at the start you know when

you're sitting in your back garden and

you should be revising but you're

shooting earphones and you know it's

like a bit of sun what are you doing um

but as soon as they saw the kind of the

potential in youtube they've been

just like all for it

did they understand what it was

yeah i'm quite lucky like my parents are

very entrepreneurial they're very modern

like they've done it themselves they're

also business owners so like

they get it you know and were you were

you an entrepreneur from

an early age outside of the obsession

with tech

yeah

i've done the usual like you know like

maybe selling sweets in the playground

and

young enterprise i don't know if you

know what that is but um

i was like the managing director in our

school for our young enterprise team and

i had this big idea of like we were

going to create a stylus that we were

going to pitch to tesco and sell it to

them

and we created the stylus we created the

packaging it was beautiful it looked

like an apple product but

i think i was the only one with the

vision and i didn't do a good enough job

of getting my team to believe in it and

so like

one man can't sell a product to a

company like that especially not like a

16 year old boy at school

wow

so you were okay you're trying to pitch

your tesco at 16 years old um

your family in terms of monies

how were they were they

reasonable yeah you know when i was

growing up like it's not like we had

everything like i couldn't just ask for

what i wanted but you know we had enough

um and i can't complain to be honest i

think there is a benefit to having

things somewhat held back from you

like i think it makes you appreciate

when you do have things i mean you've

had the same right yeah yeah yeah and

you so you sign you cite that um sort of

search for validation as

being one of the real driving forces

it's the same with me same in my life

it's like i talk about this in my book

at tremendous length i think

that feeling like i didn't fit in

created

like it was almost like pulling a spring

back made me fly off into the world as

an adult trying to validate myself

through like material things or

followers or like i don't know some kind

of social approval or whatever

you're you're saying that that's the

similar

i think that was the that was the

springboard

but i think it's very different to that

now

like

i'm no longer insecure about who i am

i'm i'm confident in myself

and so

i'm almost like immune to people telling

me that they like what i do or almost it

doesn't even register because i kind of

like i'm internally quite self-aware

about it

um so now i do things because i i want

to do them

so you get given that phone tell me how

that leads to

youtube oh well it wasn't a great phone

it was like it was pretty low end and so

like

my goal in life at the time was

basically to get it to score a certain

amount on a benchmarking app

and so i did everything i could to this

phone i was trying to like overclock the

processor and all these kinds of things

just to get it to hit this score

because in my head that was like that

was the sign you had a good phone

and so it led me to to just customize it

in ways that people probably wouldn't

have gone like extreme lengths

and that just through that i just gained

knowledge i just understood it and i was

fascinated by it

pretty smart kid if you're playing with

like the processor of a phone at 14.

i get i guess

so how were you academically

pretty good actually i think

without blowing my own trumpet i think

every exam i've

you know every exam i've sat i've got

the highest marking so

what sort of topics were you um

particularly interested in when you were

younger

i was quite mathematical there was

something about so i did maths and

further maths as two of my a-levels and

to start with there was an element of

you can feel a bit lost in those

presentations when you're getting taught

because if you miss one line of

reasoning you you lose the whole thing

but when it all comes together when you

finally understand mathematics

it's there's nothing quite like it like

it's its own rule set

and

you can prove things in ways that are

completely indisputable

and i just i love the language

and so a lot of my background is

actually economics i went to do an

economics degree

and i think that completely changes the

lens for which you view the world

you can see things instead of being like

lots of gray areas you see things in

black and white oh this is why that

person is doing that thing oh this is

the next logical step for my business

right

and and so you go to university

okay in the pursuit of what career

uh yeah so i was about to become a

consultant at pricewaterhouse right

i did like an eight-week internship

there at uni

and uh got the job

um

but probably the turning point was

actually when i turned down that job i

had to write up this little email being

like had a great time really enjoyed it

but actually

no

so youtube has been kind of like

building up in the background since the

age of 14 15.

and throughout uni i was still doing it

but it was not at a stage where it was a

comfortable career path

but it was an exciting career path and

so i had this had these two kind of

crossroads i could have gone down it was

either the traditional route or the

youtube route and

one side was just was just fascinating

to me it was you know this whole new

world the sky was the limit and i

thought it's got it it's got to be that

one

and when was the first time you made a

video was when you were 14 and you first

got that phone pretty much yeah take me

through that growth journey then so you

start what was the first video

oh gosh uh it was how to optimize the

zte blade

which is the phone app okay i'm just

gonna say yeah and and is that still on

online yeah

and how did that video do

at the time

i'm sure some people have gone back and

watched it yeah i think

yeah if you looked at it now it probably

has a couple of hundred thousand views

because of people who've gone back and

looked

at the time i just remember being blown

away by the reception i'm sure if i

actually knew now what the views were at

the start it wouldn't be very impressive

but

i couldn't believe that even a thousand

people were watching it

you know if i if i thought about my

circles at the time i was thinking

things in terms of single people

and so when you see a number like a

thousand you're like oh my god

and and how long did it take before you

hit that

a point where you thought [ __ ] you now

this is

this is going really well

i thought it was going really well when

my first video hit 5000 views you know i

remember showing my friend at his house

and he's like that's not you come on

behave yourself that's not you well yeah

as in like he's like there's no way you

got 5 000 views oh right okay yeah so i

mean i i was very i guess maybe it's

part of that whole

i had no validation at school meant that

my bar for what counted as validation

was pretty low

you know like when people said they hit

a hundred thousand subscribers i'd watch

other youtubers i never dreamed of that

like i never even thought that was an

option

i was just kind of doing youtube to get

a few thousand clicks i guess

do you think that um

your youtube journey has

given you because you said now that you

feel like you're a confident person do

you think youtube has done that

yes

but only if only because i've been quite

proactive about it so youtube is

it's a really incredible thing in the

sense that like

in no other career path can you get such

immediate feedback

like when i post a video within one

minute there might be 10 000 people

watching it there might be a thousand

comments or 500 comments and every

single one of these data points how many

likes and dislikes it's got

that is a piece of data that tells you

how you're doing

and so like you can grow so quickly as a

person as well as a channel if you know

how to harness that data companies would

kill for it

it sounds like emotionally dangerous

for the crowd to be giving you feedback

on who you are

potentially you develop a thick skin i

think as you go through it providing you

have the right mindset and i think as

long as you can filter out the

negativity there is data hidden in those

comments like you almost have to strip

away a layer

and and just kind of take what's useful

is it it sounds easier said than done to

avoid the negativity i mean like most of

the guests that i've had on the podcast

when they speak about negative comments

and these might be super successful

celebrities in their own field

they still admit to being triggered more

so than they should by just that one

that one percent negativity versus the

99

blowing smoke up ass

yeah so i think it it depends on if it's

something you're insecure about

so

if i'm insecure about i don't know let's

say the

the shape of my face and someone makes a

nasty comment about the shape of my face

it's going to sting it's going to sting

a little

but like because i think over the years

i've grown confident about most aspects

of myself

i think i stopped worrying about the

negative comments because i'm i'm okay

with who i am yeah i did a did a

question tag on instagram this week i

said if i could write a book for you

what would it be about and one of the

most popular things was confidence so

what advice would you give to

um people listening that are low in

confidence about how to build build

their confidence because

telling that you know i was thinking i'm

telling them all to build like a 10

million sub youtube channel is probably

not

probably not attainable for everybody

but

i think you have a very similar opinion

to me on this which is that

you need to make it input based rather

than output based you can't pin yourself

to a certain number of followers or

anything so that you are confident you

have to make internal peace with

yourself

and i mean

i look around on the street like all the

fans that come up to me and they're like

oh can we get a photograph with you

you're incredible i love your videos i

look at them like you're incredible as

well look at you like what are you doing

you know you've got a camera you're

snapping photos of buildings show me

that looks incredible

um i think everyone has their own story

and their own great things about them

and people struggle to see it in

themselves

but they can see it in others

and i i can't like there's no person on

this planet who i would look at and

couldn't see good in them and couldn't

see something great

if you were that young kid again that

that was lacking in confidence at 14

years old and say i couldn't give say

you couldn't do youtube so it didn't

exist

what else might you have done knowing

what you know now about how your

confidence has been built what else

could you have done to reach the same

outcome

i'm really trying to get to like the

what what is it that made you

come to peace with yourself

um

because

because it sounds like it was a lot of

people

being nice

after some weren't so nice when you were

younger

hmm

i think i'm quite a i'm quite a

proactive person so if there's something

about me that i don't like i will try

and fix it

um

so a lot of people not many people know

this actually so when i was younger i

used to have like a crooked nose

and it bothered me a lot i used to like

only sit at certain angles from people

and you know i'd hide myself in the

corners of rooms so people couldn't see

the other side

and

eventually i was just like this is a

solvable problem why am i worrying about

this so i just got i got surgery done

and fixed it and i think

there's there's some things about you

that you can't fix and i think you just

have to be very mechanical about them

and be like this is me i have good

things and i have bad things but the bad

things i can't change i'm gonna lean on

things that are good about me fix the

things i can fix and

the rest is life

so on that point of having a good or bad

nose this is me just going with the wind

now because i find it super intriguing

um something i've thought a lot about um

who who who was to say that your nose

was bad

people would laugh at me

so i guess others

it's interesting

society says you know this is not good

about you

is there a risk in then changing to

please them do you think because i feel

like that might be a slippery slope

yeah yeah

it

hm

it is a slippery slope but

you just need to know your limits

you just need to kind of like

set the boundaries

maybe that's easier said than done yeah

yeah because i i really want i wonder

that a lot about cosmetic surgery these

days just generally and about the um

[Music]

i'm always i'm always like if someone

gets one thing done then there's always

a

there's now a new most like there's now

a new worst thing about me and why don't

you then go and get that thing changed

then that thing changed and i i wonder

if it's a slippery slope i have no data

data to back this up but just

anecdotally from seeing some of my

my friends who've got one thing done

they typically then will get another

done and then

i've seen it too i've seen it too you're

right um

but but there's also an element of like

if something bothers you to the extent

where you're having to have this whole

other layer in your mindset of like oh i

can have a conversation with this person

but i'm going to do it from here

and you can fix it fairly easily

then you you should do it like if the

next thing then becomes oh well i'd

quite like my chin to be longer you're

not really solving a fundamental problem

you're just you're just you know having

fun

that's personally where i would draw the

line because obviously i don't think i

have the perfect face or the perfect

good looking guy oh thank you very much

um great asian hair great

yeah us blacks don't have it the same

way necessarily people like beard yeah

just no effort on my part it just

happened

yeah it's strong thank you very strong

um i was gonna so

one of the reasons i was asking that

question about confidence and how you

build it build it is because i reflect

sometimes on a lot of the stuff that i

say and i think i put out there

especially my book in my podcast that i

like did this internal work and suddenly

i found my confidence and the

insecurities faded away but i can't get

away from this idea that i did also make

myself mega rich and successful

and get millions of followers and that

might have played a role in me being

able to like shrug off the insecurities

easily so i'm wondering if like and what

awful advice it would be to give to a 16

year old kid to have to say to him oh

you you're lacking in confidence well

just go and build a multi-million pound

business and get 10 million subscribers

on youtube and then you'll be fine

yes that's what i'm trying to unpack is

it is it the achievement and the

validation from the achievement that

helps the insecurities fall away or is

it some other type of

internal work

i think i think actually gratitude plays

a big role in it um

i've spent a lot of time recently

trying to wake up each morning and just

remind myself i feel like we are we are

hardwired to focus on the bad things

because

i mean what prehistorically those used

to be the more urgent matters

and i think gratitude fixes a lot of

these insecurities because it's like

okay yeah i don't have beth the best

skin i've got acne everywhere but hey i

can breathe that's incredible

um so that is something i've been doing

a lot of and i think a lot of the

personal growth i've seen has come since

then

what does that look like practically in

terms of practicing gratitude

so one thing i do is when i wake up i i

told myself i was going to write down a

few things but i end up just thinking

them but that's enough so i think of

three things that i'm just grateful for

in that moment and oftentimes you end up

saying the same things again and again

but that's actually that's okay

it's fine like you don't need constantly

changing

um mechanisms to keep you happy

i found that recently with some of my

friends that have been not so well i've

just had this tremendous gratitude for

my health watching one of my friends

that's younger than me

be have a

really serious illness

and it's crazy they they say the same

about like hospital awards if you walk

through a hospital word you'll suddenly

feel this tremendous sense of gratitude

for your health you know and um how do

you practice that on a daily basis

without having to have someone fall ill

or go to the hospital

i think is diff increasingly difficult

especially in a world where everybody's

like status signaling every time you

open your phone

you know how do you how do you go about

doing it then yeah it's really

interesting i i make a conscious effort

that's the first thing but i don't

remember to do every day

and then um

music does it for me sometimes which is

really strange

um

and i i'm very fortunate that i think

naturally i have these like waves of

gratitude that come over me i'm very

aware that i am current and i said this

in my my live show the diversio live i

said

the vast majority of this audience

you're currently living a dream that you

once had but you're not appreciating it

because your current self is telling

future you that you'll be happy when you

get

three times more than you have now

that's typically up and down the income

and wealth spectrum what people say they

need to become a 10 out of 10 happiness

is 3x what they have right now

and it's that and it's that idea of like

you'll never therefore be happy because

you're always so for me that really

centers you and says [ __ ] me like 18

year old steve this is what he and i

when i say get goosebumps again like

this is what i dream for yeah like i

wanted to be financially free so that i

didn't have to steal chicago time pizzas

and nick chicken bones from takeaways

and look at me

i'm 28 years old and i'm free

you know like yeah so i try and

sometimes that plays out in my head

naturally

um

you get this a lot on youtube like

because of how numerical the platform is

like i i distinctly remember moments

where i'd look at my sort of like

statistics and be like oh imagine a

hundred thousand subscribers imagine 500

000 subscribers i would dream of those

numbers

and uh you almost don't quite realize as

you toddle past those numbers in reality

because you're already ready for the

next thing

you're so focused on like uh making it

even bigger even better getting that

phone even earlier before launch and all

these things

you have to stop yourself do you stop

yourself be honest with me are you

successful in that

i'm really happy yeah i'm a really

really happy guy um

so i i'd like to think yes i didn't used

to be even even three four years ago i

didn't used to be

um when i graduated i

had this pent up energy from youtube

because i've been doing it throughout

but i was also juggling it with my

studies and i wanted to get a first and

i also didn't want to have a terrible

social life so i was doing all these

things and it was kind of this this

crazy whirlwind of just kind of like

activity to activity jumping between

filming to lectures to homework to

nights out

and so when i actually graduated i was

like right i'm gonna give everything to

youtube

so i made one video every single day for

at least six months and it it drove me

to the point where i one time i just

broke down crying on camera

um i never published that but i have a i

have a photo which i sometimes look back

on

to remind me of like

what it took

um

and so that that reminds me

why were you crying

it was uh

a lot of things that sort of come to the

fore

it was it was exhaustion in the moment

because it was it was really hot and i

was just kind of like my hands hurt and

my voice hurt my throat was cracking

but it was also this kind of long-term

build up that led to it

um

it was it was actually a bit of a pivot

point in my career because i sat down

like this isn't actually what i wanted

um

it was a realization that i've actually

you know my channel's growing all these

metrics are looking up but

but this isn't

you know

my brain

and it made it immediately made me

change mindset from hard work to smart

work

it was i suddenly started thinking like

do i which tasks do i need to be there

for

and

how do i make sure i'm only doing those

tasks

and also it made me take a step back

from i'm not doing a video every day

i've gotta look at the data look at

these retention graphs find out how to

maximize the click-through rates all

these kinds of things it allowed me to

take a step back breathe

and focus on how to utilize my brain to

the best of its ability

in terms of mental health you tapped

your head then when you said you'd

optimized for i guess youtube

performance but you hadn't optimized for

your mental well-being

at your lowest

what was what was the what was what

state was your mind in

your well-being

i've never been depressed i would say i

think i've i'm quite resilient as well

as being quite lucky

um

but

i got to a stage where

emotionally physically just exhaustion i

think is how i'd put it very very tired

to the point where i didn't have time

for

friends for family like by the time i'd

finished they were asleep

um

i'd kind of screwed myself into a little

hole and that hole was my bedroom

where i'd film

so i think that's what people call

burnout

yeah yeah but i wouldn't let myself stop

because i told myself that like this was

my dream and that one video a day was

the way to achieve that dream

and so like there was just something

inside me which is like you can't stop

now like you're there this is this is

the runway just

run what did you tell yourself your

dream was

i would look at other youtubers when i

was a kid and just like you know

they had like a million subscribers for

example

and they were getting all this tech

through the door and their entire job

was to just test it and learn about it

and i remember just being like that's

the best thing in the world like i'm

fascinated by technology i would love to

be able to just see all this stuff

because when i was younger i didn't i

didn't get to play with the latest stuff

you know i was i wasn't the kid who had

the latest game boy or anything like

that

um

so so i guess that really appealed to me

so your idea of happiness when you're

younger was getting sent amazing

technology and being able to just like

do what you love talk about it so you

you

i guess you set yourself this plan of

just being making a video every single

day

in the

i guess the thought that that would lead

to your your dream and i guess you you

you realized at some point that your

strategy was

unsustainable

yeah good way of putting it yeah it just

felt like a really like you still wanted

the same goal but your strategy in terms

of getting there was just unsustainable

oh my god it just i relate to that so

much in so many different ways and i

think

a lot of people don't realize that you

have to set up your goals as marathons

not sprints if you you do want to

achieve them right yeah i've never heard

it described like that but that's it

yeah yeah

you've got your whole life to do these

things like it doesn't need to be today

and potentially the intensity of trying

to do it today

is actually the biggest risk to it ever

happening yeah because i mean if you if

your mental well-being had

been adversely effective more adversely

effective than it was you might not have

ever come back to youtube because of

yeah i mean it could have been enjoyable

like you it sounds like

at that point when you were doing that

like just crazy sacrifice everything

was it enjoy was it was it fulfillment

or was it something else

i was getting some sort of sick thrill

out of seeing the numbers go up the

sixth round yeah

but you know when it comes at the cost

of yourself i think you've been there as

well yeah you're not enjoying it really

and it's that thought in your mind that

i can't do this forever yeah but it took

until a kind of breaking point for me to

realize yeah and it seems to you for a

lot of people

it seems that a lot of people hit some

burn out some explosive moment i mean

tom blonfield sat here from the podcast

ceo and founder of monzo and talks about

the same thing just waking up in the

morning with like a sense of dread

and

like his sleep actually being

the peaceful escape in that three

seconds when he woke up and he didn't

realize he was the ceo of munzo just

being amazing

and that crushing weight of like but it

seems to be the case with a lot of

people that they don't they get so

caught up

in this this hamster wheel chase for

their

dream that they don't realize it's

unsustainable and the cost it's having

on other things that are

fundamentally conducive to living a

happy life yeah people

people yeah i think we are

we are complex beings but we are also

quite simple in what we need

and that social interaction and

people who are close and who actually

want us to succeed

and we don't need many of them

we definitely don't need 10 million

tell me what you thought you needed

before and then after that moment

so before so tell me what you thought

you needed in life before you had that

sort of breakdown moment and then what

you've come to realize in subsequent

years that you actually need in life

hmm i think before it was very much a

numbers thing i think i was a i was a

kid who thought that the answer was just

to just keep growing for the sake of

growing

but but afterwards it's very much been

about i still want to grow i still want

to be the the best tech influencer on

the planet i want to be synonymous with

the word tech

but

it will be mindful growth it like one of

the factors in that growth will be not

just monetary but it will be

does it work with this does it does it

still make me equally or more happy

no decision will go forward if it

doesn't

if that makes sense so the goal hasn't

changed but the the approach has

it's fascinating i think a lot of people

can relate to that in their lives um in

a lot of ways because they're

essentially sacrificing a little bit too

much and trying to

win a sprint but these big goals like

the goals that you have the ambitions

you have they are as we've said like

marathons

they are they are um i'm very aware that

like if you want to be the best in the

world at something you've got to give

something you can't spend

you know all your time with your friends

just having beers you you have to let it

go sometimes and so

i'm very

i'm very careful with how i spend my

time

but i make sure that there is quality

time with the people that i do care

about

so and so let's talk about that point

then hard work a lot of people say that

hard work is um

it's toxic

etc what do you say to that

oh the whole uh

wake up at 4am that that kind of

attitude yeah

yeah i don't think that's the way

forward if anything actually i think

sleep is uh a really practical

productive thing to be doing um

if anything i wish i was better at it i

actually struggle a lot with my sleep

i'm really trying to improve i've

actually got your um episode with the

sleep expert on my watch later oh god um

yeah um no she she says some really

important things i'm not watching on the

way home yeah yeah um

so i'm not of that opinion i think there

is a time and place for really hard work

but it has to be for a cause that

it has to be for the greater goal

um

yeah i think i think you talked about

this with uh on the episode with ali

yeah yeah yeah yeah and what was the

conclusion you came to well i i can't

remember exactly um what we came to but

my general thinking on hard work is that

um and and i guess burnout is when

you're doing something that you you can

where you consider the reward of doing

it meaningful and worthwhile then hard

work really is important and i actually

listened to elon musk this weekend to

talk about this he said the exact same

thing he said when you believe that

you're doing the correct thing and it's

a noble or like meaningful goal then

hard work is really really important and

it's also will help you

avoid burnout but when you're doing hard

work for a task that you don't think is

meaningful like working in a factory for

14-hour days and it's and it's not

stimulating your mind and it's just hard

work for minimum wage yeah burnout is

inevitable and it's just around the

corner and that for me is like oh god

that's my idea of a nightmare

hard work hard meaningless work

for me is being is the definition of

like

lose your [ __ ] marbles insanity i

think i'm very lucky in that sense in

that like i found my calling yeah and i

think we're in a world where a lot of

people just don't

i'm not saying that there's like one

true goal for each person like no one's

going to have their dream job

but i think a lot of people they find

out quite late what they really enjoy

and i think we're in a system where

people have to decide very quickly

um and with not a full information set

what career path they want to go down

what advice would you give to people

that are i mean this is just again

talking about things that people ask me

all the time how to find my passion or

whatever is

so i would say

try as many things as you can while

you're young

um i had a really close friend who's 18

and

she

decided she wanted to do pharmacy

but then did two weeks of that course

and was like actually

i don't really want to do that anymore

um and then was like oh maybe i should

do medicine so she dropped her to

pharmacy thinking about doing medicine

and then she might drop out of that

decide she wants to do business studies

it's like

if you just spend two weeks in as many

different careers as possible that

that's when you know um

there's

kids kids are lazy a lot a lot of kids

are lazy and i think um

there's this kind of short

short-sightedness that you have to just

kind of find a way to overcome just for

your long-term future sake like that

time is so pivotable when you're

deciding you're sat at that crossroads

and you're looking down all these

different paths

given the systems we have in place you

have to spend that time well

finding out which like what these paths

actually look like

um

and the system as you say set up at 16

years old they give you like brochures

and they're like pick yeah pick which

subjects you're going to do and then

you're like oh [ __ ] then you're locked

into those subjects then they go which

university in which course and you have

no idea the medical and the law courses

are particularly bad because they're so

specialized

um you know if you do a medical degree

you're not really qualified to do a lot

of different things like you're probably

going to be a doctor

and you can very quickly find yourself

in a position where you feel trapped

i have another friend who did medicine

and then did the whole thing but then

was like actually no i want to be a

journalist

and so that whole five years they didn't

need to do it

how did you find your calling then so

what is it and i don't mean because i

know your story we all do

but what is it about you that when your

calling showed up you had the whatever i

don't want to give i don't want to put

answers in your mouth

to say

that's it

i'm gonna go in that direction because a

lot of people wouldn't see playing

around with mobile phones as a

uh

possibility

i would say uh light in the dark um

it was very obvious to me because of

what the alternatives were

like

i was kind of i think a lot of people

follow the path

and the path basically dictates that the

subjects you are strong in you study a

degree that is similar to those subjects

and then those degrees usually have a

next stepping stone and a next stepping

stone and you'll just kind of you'll

shoot down unless you veer off you have

you have to actively veer off that path

and so i was very much going down the

kind of i'm strong at maths therefore

i'm going to do an economics degree i'm

doing i'm doing an economics degree so

i'm going to be a consultant i was going

down that path

and i'm just i was just lucky that i was

also doing this other thing which

excited me so much

and so comparing the two when it became

clear to me that actually youtube could

be a career as well

um

it was just an obvious choice

do you ever reflect on what might have

happened if you didn't have the

conviction to go for

i think i think i would have become a

consultant which is terrifying

i i wish i could say i wasn't but you

know that's the work experience i did

that was the job i was offered

so

given there was no outside option i'd i

probably would have taken it

and a lot of people have done that in

their lives they've followed those sort

of sequential steps yeah and ended up

somewhere

and they're listening to this right now

and thinking [ __ ]

it's tricky because you don't want to

just quit your job one day for a you

know potential startup you might have

with a 10 chance of succeeding you can't

you can't do that

right like what advice do you give to

people in that situation well this isn't

about me

no but i i really do i really do i

always say what you said at the start

which is about just increasing the

amount of experiments you make as as

like

cost um cost-effective experiments

you're making as young as you possibly

can which is exactly what you've

described which means go to another

country spend two weeks and quit really

[ __ ] quickly yes and just like rapid

quit the minute you're like i hate this

quit move on try in and i think people

that are exposed to as you say the most

data the most information are able to

make more informed decisions about what

they enjoy and you can take that part of

that job where you got to do this thing

and mix it with this part of this job

where you got to do that thing and

slowly weave your way towards the thing

that gives you the most fulfillment yeah

but as we say i know because i know the

people that listen to this podcast

there's so many people right now in jobs

where they've kind of like ended up

there working in kpmg or pwc in the city

wearing a suit and tie

and they know that job isn't for them

they know it's not for them

but they they just maybe they you know

but there is also an element i think of

like

we live in a society where social media

is prevalent and people log on to

instagram every day and see other people

who are leading better lives than them

or apparently yeah

and i think there is an element of

gratefulness with the job you do have

because not everyone is going to find

their dream job and maybe the job you're

doing is your dream job because it

facilitates the life that you currently

lead

does that make sense it does yeah and

that's like this the practical approach

i'm not practical and like people will

get mad at this but like look at that

look at my decision-making i stopped

going to school i then dropped out of

university after one lecture started a

company quitter out out the blue ran

another company for seven years quit out

the blue i make decisions based on how

i'm feeling and practicality has always

been secondary in terms of well what am

i going to do about the feeding my like

dropping out of university manchester

never got a student loan

i'm shoplifting these chicago town

pizzas and i call my mom and say mom i'm

dropping out she goes i'll never speak

to you again i didn't care because i i

was just in this relentless pursuit of

me of what made me feel good every day

um so i understand the practicality

argument but i i find it dangerous

because it hints of like

just tolerate it

you know like yeah but but let's say

like obviously i'm still fairly young

but i can imagine that if i was 50 years

old with a family to support and a

career that i'm not you know i'm on the

fence of i'm like well you know it's

fine it's good you're right

what can you do like you just got to be

happy with it i do say to people you've

got to be practical in those moments but

i don't think you've got to be happy

with it if you're not

you shouldn't quit you can look for

outside options but i think it's not one

of those things to be impulsive about

i agree yeah what we're describing is

there's this middle ground yeah where

you have to be practical because your

kids need to eat

but and so you want to be more strategic

in how you you know you make your move

however i don't i really don't want

anyone at any age to find themselves in

a place of like

misery

and think well

gotta be grateful and i've gotta feed

these kids haven't i i just i just want

better for people and i know it's hard

like i know it's hard or else everybody

would just be living their dream but i i

also know

that it is possible

for

all of us regardless of age or position

we find ourselves in or how stagnant

we've been for how many decades

to make the decision today that this is

the start of like the rest of our lives

and we're going to just give it a

[ __ ] go

i know that's true the only thing that

stands in the way of that is people

don't believe it's true they look at you

and you seem so far away 10 million

subscribers you must be superman super

genius that

born with it parents must be rich you

must have genius just that's not me

i'm a muggle

and i hate that

because i'm you know

and yeah yeah everyone starts from zero

every youtube channel had zero

subscribers at one point and you know

was was cheering when they got the first

one and it was probably their mum you

know

the most the most inspiring thing i

think i could show the audience is

probably you and you're 14.

do you know what i mean because they'd

be like that guy the same with me they'd

be like that [ __ ] guy i had the

camera presence of a vegetable

[Music]

not good

that's crazy on this point of friends

then

and relationships how are you doing and

and what are your tips you're super

ambitious you're scaling this big

business um on youtube

what are your strategies to maintain

meaningful relationships amongst all

this chaos

because i struggle

yeah i

i try and make sure it's quality time so

i think i spend less time texting and

more time seeing people like if i spend

two hours texting one of my friends that

is much less of a quality connection

than two hours of seeing that person of

being able to have a fluid conversation

and being able to see them and see their

facial expressions and their

gesticulations and all that

so i pretty much plan my time such that

the minute i finish work i am doing

something in person with the people i

care about

whether that's a board game with my

family or a night out with my friends

that there's very little down time but

in a good way

do you have to be somewhat of a

contradiction in

who you are to

have

quality relationships um you have to be

a different guy because what i'm saying

is professionally everything is about

return on time if i spend one hour what

am i getting back do you have to be a

different guy to get the most out of

your social life in terms of

that

that sort of like time efficiency i'm

the boss

yeah it sounds very transactional to

look at relationships like that

um

i think every person actually does view

them in the same way they just don't put

the labels on it

i think really we're all doing the same

things as humans where you know we've

got a set of 10 decisions in our heads

things we could do and we pick the one

that's best for us

but i think i just attach a framework to

it that allows me to think about it

easier

so i think i'd be doing the same thing

even if i didn't think about it in that

way

i'm just the way i think about it allows

me to plan it better

and you value those things you now value

those well when i when i finish a day of

work and i know i'm about to go see my

friends like my heart starts punting i

get so excited

i just like i get off the station at st

pancras sometimes and i just i feel like

uh like a free bird

and like i know there's going to be a

little adventure that weekend and it's i

think those moments make your life worth

living do you have a lot of friends

not many but but they're good ones

roughly how many

i have i'd say like good friends like

brothers like you know what i mean six

sisters six six years and that's pretty

much my entire circle i think the only

friends i have are good friends

the rest of them i've almost decided

that realistically i'm not going to be

able to make this friendship work and

it's sad like sometimes it's even just

geographical some of my friends after

university they

they move to france or indonesia or hong

kong

and just the fact that they're in

another country has meant that

realistically

my friendship with that person is just

going to be a series of messages hey how

are you doing i'm good how are you doing

and

even though i like these people

it just doesn't work

that's not like a meaningful

relationship is it you must have had the

same thing as well 100

yeah and it's really frustrating because

great guys but you know

do you know i actually struggle at the

moment because my girlfriend lives in

indonesia

and so right now um the border to get

into indonesia is closed yeah so you

can't get in anyway and i can feel that

my relationship with her is like

small talk

you know it's like oh hey how are you

i'm doing this what are you doing today

i'm doing a podcast again and running my

business what are you doing yeah running

my business it's like do you know what i

mean

and you can feel that the the importance

of like physical one-on-one time

um which has been smashed because of the

pandemic but also

because she lives literally 24 hours

away

so i've got to like really reassess my

life

i'm assuming you've tried like video

calls and like video messages and

even then it's like different time zones

and

yeah that's the worst

oh my god it's really difficult

but you come back to this point like if

it's worth it you're gonna

go to extraordinary lengths to figure it

out figure out how to solve the problem

and for me that that means that i'm

gonna have to go there a lot i'm gonna

have to fly to indonesia a lot she's

gonna have to fly here a lot so you see

that being like a permanent long-term

relationship

yeah

crikey

yeah good luck i know right she's not

indonesian she's from france french and

portuguese she's just making your life

difficult

no comments

um but if it's worth it you got to put

in the work and you know i reflect on

all of my friends relationships and this

is the really the thing that really

makes me want to put in the work to make

it work is all of my friends even the

ones that have had the most successful

relationships have been through hell in

chaos at some point they've had to

overcome really really remarkable

challenges and it's overcoming those

challenges that have made them stronger

so

i see it as that like my friend that i

consider to have the best relationship

out of all my friends they have

individually both been through personal

chaos and managed to come come out the

other end

so i see this as a as one of those

things like a test like the board is

closed you can't get into the country

you know like that uh what's that rocky

balboa quote it's not how hard you get

here it's how hard you get here and

can keep going forward i think that's

relationships and the thing that keeps

you going forward is like

is it worth it

is it worth it

yeah at some point the answer to that

question might be no same with burke

so your chance uh your stance on this

has changed hasn't it with relationships

yes

quite recently

which part

which part of my stance so i remember

reading that uh

you had a relationship that you had to

kind of like end because you were so

focused on your work oh that i think

that daily mail wrote that um but i mean

that is true that is true with all of my

previous relationships pretty much

yeah

um that was just a young naive kid that

was like a super naive version of me

that was

miscalculated miscalculated the

priorities of life

and what changed was it just finding the

right person or was it an internal thing

it was

definitely both but i'd actually say it

was more the internal thing it was the

this is why i asked you the question

earlier on about you what you valued

before and after your breakdown because

before

for me before i had my sort of turning

point i thought as you said the most

important thing in the world was just

getting rich buying a lamborghini and a

mansion and then having loads of like

infrequent casual partners i thought

that would be it that would make me

exponentially happier yeah um what i

came to and i didn't think relationships

mattered friendships or romantic

what i came to learn

through a variety of different stimuli

one of them being a ted talk i saw where

they did a 100-year study of men and

they looked at men that had

relationships and men that didn't have

relationships the ones that had

relationships lived like 10 years longer

were healthier happier

imagine that lived 10 years longer crazy

made them physically healthier

were happier

everything everything that mattered

was given to those that had meaningful

relationships then i read lost

connections by johanna hari and it shows

that a lot of the reason why we're

getting more and more depressed and

socially anxious and all of these things

is because we're not in our tribes we

don't have meaningful connections but

[ __ ]

and then i looked at what i'd been

feeling myself

and i'd always i'd always been too

scared to say i was lonely i'd always

been too scared to say that

and i've always been too scared to say

that i wasn't feeling good either

but on reflection now i was lonely i was

really really lonely you can be lonely

even if you're surrounded by people yeah

100

i think actually

there's a reason why a lot of people say

that university is the best time of

their lives and i think it's because

they're surrounded by friends and

the relationship people have with their

friends is often healthier than the

relationship people have with their

families because the level of

expectation is removed

like i think with families people find

that they fall into certain roles where

like they do the dishes and they clean

the floors whereas at university with

your friends if you clean the floors

you're here you're a hero

and i think that kind of that attitude

means that people want to hang out with

their friends more and they enjoy that

process even though they're

fundamentally doing the same things

they're being appreciated more 100

and i think

i try and apply that in my relationships

it's like

when my friends come to see me just the

fact that they've come to see me i'm

like oh guys come on amazing yeah it's

amazing

there's also new hierarchy in friendship

groups in terms of like your family you

have a hierarchy you have the older

brother and the older sister then you

have the mom in the and then you also

get to typically select your friends

which you don't get to do with your

family so you can wind up with a pretty

nuts family that's true and have to

tolerate it because you are related and

i think the friendship especially as you

get out of school because school kind of

forces you together but if you get out

of school you start to discover who you

are what music you're into what

interests you have you then build a

tribe around you that have shared values

and that seems to be the best

yeah the best tribe not to underestimate

family though like i think when you have

good family connections

no one wants you to succeed more than

they do yeah yeah yeah and i think very

few people have your best interests at

heart

apart from them 100

what about romantic relationships have

you found forming romantic relationships

as a

on-screen mega youtuber

ambitious guy entrepreneur nuanced is

what i would say like

when you

when you have this whole youtube thing

clearly like

people are into it right people it's a

cool job if nothing else it's just cool

so you're saying women are into it

yeah yeah yeah um

but i think

you'll know when you've found someone

who

looks through it looks past it

um the only challenge then becomes time

because youtube is not just incredibly

time consuming but it's also

unpredictable and so in relationships

where people want stability

trying to offer that stability is

is not easy um you know let's say

someone wants me to come to a wedding in

two weeks time aaron can you definitely

make it can you book that date in

i can't i can't really

you know i'm i'm not

i'm not working a nine to five i can't

book days off sometimes an opportunity

presents itself and it's such a great

opportunity that i don't want to turn it

down

um

like like this chat like you know i i

really wanted to come see you as soon as

i got the email but had i said to

someone else a friend or a girlfriend or

whatever that i was going to be doing

something with them this day i'd have

had to i'd have had to do that and that

that horrifies me

because you know we're in a place where

the sky is in the limit all these

metrics are looking up and so many

people and opportunities are presenting

themselves i want i want to do them all

so how would you balance it how do you

balance it well

quality time in person time and i think

so you almost have to kind of like

assign things in your relationships an

importance level

and if something is really important to

your partner then you just be there no

matter what

if things are somewhat negotiable then

you know try and make it but don't

commit

and how important is it to find the

right person i'm guessing you've

potentially tried a few different types

like i have i've tried a few different

types of people maybe and maybe three

three or four maybe five

no

like i mean like relationships over the

last

over the last uh let's say 10 years

different different characters that

either saw my work as a threat

or saw it as a really cool thing and

were supportive were maybe way too

supportive or maybe

way too intimidated by work how

important has it been to find the right

person

so important so important i mean you

know your partner is the person you're

spending you know you want to spend the

rest of your life with they're going to

become you effectively

you know you've heard that thing where

you kind of you become the five closest

people around you yeah yeah your partner

is going to be your biggest influence

for the rest of your life and so them

being on the same page and them being an

inspiration to you as well as you to

them i think is

is the only thing you need

do you think you need a partner that is

ambitious and i always i always find

this really fascinating that i've had so

many conversations with very ambitious

entrepreneurs um

and they tend to go one of two ways they

they typically tend to believe that they

also need someone who is sidetracked

with their own dreams and goals

but i i question that sometimes

and i think okay so start with

yourselves

well so

okay

so

when i was a little bit more stupid

like 18 i used to think that i want my

partner to be

a like a philanthropist has has their

own thing

and to just be

you know taking over the world

themselves

however

in reality i've come to learn that i

might be lying to myself because

if that were to be the case

then we'd probably never see each other

right

um because the likelihood is they'd be

in another country doing massive things

and it would just be texting

and so i've i've come to learn

especially when i was in the height of

my career at social chain and i was

flying like 50 days a year

50 weeks a year sorry um

i couldn't have possibly had a

meaningful relationship with someone

that was doing the same

so it's made me question myself a little

bit and start to reflect on the fact

that especially when you know other

factors come into play maybe i need

someone that is going to be a little bit

more

uh supportive of my of my and i don't

this answer gives a [ __ ]

i think i think where i am

at with it is a little different i think

fundamentally the person you end up with

has to see eye to eye with you they have

to be on your wavelength and i think for

people like us who are just so

incredibly ambitious we want to do huge

things with our lives

it's not going to work out with someone

who isn't like that because eventually

you'll lose respect for them

so i think all these things about

convenience of the relationship they

kind of all fall to the wayside

if that person

is right

if they if they see you

like that

i've been unable to form a romantic

relationship with someone that doesn't

have passion for something and i'm not

saying take over the world i mean like

be inter-knitting like

love you know anything just like love

like dog breeding i don't like in

reading grooming just just be passionate

about something and i think what i'm

looking for there is

to come home and talk about you and your

life too and your hobbies not just uh

it's a center on me because then i don't

get to escape i don't get to relax and

wind down you know yeah

um now you're right yeah it doesn't

matter what they're passionate about but

they have to be passionate

yeah

but what if they are what if they what

if they're flying 50 weeks a year how

had you

how does that work

i think in the same way that like you

know you have to compromise for the

other person they will also compromise

for you yeah and i think it's okay if

you make a million less a year or

whatever it is depending on what scale

you're working on if it means you can

have this meaningful relationship

because as we've established like as

humans we need that it's a core need and

it's the easiest one to neglect because

the feeling isn't as urgent as hunger or

thirst but it is there

so true

so true i definitely have realized that

if i'm gonna have a romantic

relationship and it's gonna work

i'm going to have to leave millions off

the table

just like in

missing meetings and not and having to

compromise and that's a really

that's a really interesting hard to do

because you then try and quantify the

value the relationship has as a return

and you say well if i'm probably going

to lose

i reckon i'd lose

like five million a year by having a

romantic relationship genuinely maybe

even more like genuinely probably more

yeah and you think oh [ __ ] oh they've

got to be worried

but then you reflect and go i'm

i don't need more money do i yeah but

there is a game to be made in terms of

like romantic

connection yeah beyond a certain point

what what is money it just it's a bit of

convenience right that's all it is

and potentially if you get too much

a pain in the ass right yeah like some

people like i know they spend they spend

a long time looking for things to spend

their money on oh god that's the worst

yeah that is a sickness

yeah um so i got this uh phone through

the mail not that long ago and it was a

hundred and seventy thousand dollar

iphone

but you know what it was it was uh so

not an iphone it was a samsung phone but

it was a phone with a gold brick

attached to the back

and i was thinking to myself what kind

of person actually buys this

where would you have to be in your life

to purchase this particular phone

miserable bastard you've got to be

miserable yeah

right you've got to be miserable

i can't imagine a world where someone

that's buying a phone that has a gold

brick strapped to it is living a

fulfilled life except everything i must

know must be wrong if they they can buy

a

gold bricks oh do you want to know the

funny part so because of the gold brick

on the back the cameras don't work

[Music]

the way i reasoned it was that if you've

got that much money you've probably got

someone to take photos of you true yeah

or you've got no friends because you're

that miserable what money then let's

talk about money what what role does it

play in your life

so when i was growing up um like i said

i wasn't underprivileged so i had i had

all everything basic covered but there

was definitely what things i wanted you

know i wanted the latest toys i wanted

the latest trading cards whatever it was

um

so when i first started getting income

from youtube

i was very happy with it you know i

would buy things off amazon and like

make myself short-term happy just fill

those little gaps that i had in my

childhood i guess would you go looking

for things to buy sometimes yeah i think

i would same

um

it's that first initial feeling of

freedom and like

it almost doesn't feel real when you can

order things off your own card and like

they come to you and it's like i've

earned this this is my treat

um but after a period of time i realized

that like the things that i actually

want don't cost very much

and so i actually i've purposefully not

bought myself a nice car because i

actually i'm very aware that as humans

we adjust slippery slope it's a slippery

slope and i know that

even if let's say 20 years in the future

i own a ferrari or a lamborghini there's

no point rushing to get there

because i know from that point all i'm

going to be thinking is what's next

and so you might as well get a polo

first and then maybe get an a-class

mercedes and then maybe get a a nice

nissan i don't know work your way up

even even if you could get a nice car

now like what's the rush

just enjoy the journey it's like i see

it like a video game like do you play

many games yeah

so

i always find myself when i play games i

am rushing to finish them and i want i

want to get to that last boss i want to

beat it for the final reward

but then as soon as i do that i just i

lose all interest in the game

and it it there's so many parallels

between that and real life

you know what do you do when you have so

much money that you don't know what to

do with it you just you find things to

do with it and that in itself is is a

you know

it's just another thing to do

it makes me feel sick

sometimes that i still have these

moments where i will like glance at a

mansion on like right move and then i

genuinely have this sick feeling in my

stomach because i know what my life then

means

do you know what i mean like genuinely

it would probably make me miserable

because i'd have to move out of london

which means i'm further away from

friends and people can't come to me and

then i'm in this eight bedroom house

yeah that no one can come to you anyway

and i feel that sickness

it's like nice i feel the same way when

i look at like the lamborghinis and the

rolls-royces which i always come back to

i'm going to buy one it's like the

insecure kid shows up and then i get

that like belly sickness where are you

going yeah it's like well steve if you

do that you know what this means yeah

yeah you know what treadmill you're like

there is some part of you that's pulling